Might The Yankees Nontender Chien-Ming Wang?

Agreed, suck it up, they can afford it.

So, the Yankees, with all their billions of dollars, can't afford to tender their Wang?
Isn't this what medicine is for? :)

But it means they can take a risk, which if pans out, is well worth the money.

No one is saying they can't afford. It is a question of whether they think it'd be a sunk cost or not. If it is, oh well, it was one year of 5 mil. If not, you get a guy who was one of the more consistent pitchers in baseball from 2005-2007. Take the risk, Cash.

"Just because you have a money doesn't mean you can just throw it away."

This is the NYY. They throw away millions more on veteran players each year who have not done what Wang did in the previous 2 years.

All talk with regards to non tendering Wang, just like last couple of years when they talked of cutting back some on salary. It's laughable.

"All talk with regards to non tendering Wang, just like last couple of years when they talked of cutting back some on salary. It's laughable."

Except they DID cut back on salary.......

Wang had 3 years, 159 days of service time coming into the year, so 4.159 after. He about needs 1 year and 3 weeks of service time to become a free agent.

If they offer him a minor league deal and guarantee a callup by September 1st, the free agency issue goes away.

"Except they DID cut back on salary......."

* 2009: $201,449,189
* 2008: $209,081,577
* 2007: $189,639,045
* 2006: $194,663,079
* 2005: $208,306,817
* 2004: $184,193,950
* 2003: $152,749,814
* 2002: $125,928,583
* 2001: $112,287,143
* 2000: $107,588,459

They did? When???

Posted by: johns | September 10, 2009 at 02:38 PM

Did you notice the 9 million dollar decrease in salary from 2008 to this season, even after signing CC, AJ, and Tex????

"Non-tender him with the agreement that he will sign a minor league deal. Wang will be making roughly $5 million if the Yanks offered arbitration. Nobody is going to come close to offering him 5 million on the FA market."

Maybe, but I wouldn't guarantee it, as guys like John Smoltz managed to get decent guaranteed money last year.

Wang was an awfully solid pitcher from 2005-2007, and with his groundball tendencies he could be a solid 2/3 with a good defense behind him, presuming that he's healthy.

Wang definitely would get a MLB deal, and given the upside of offering him arbitration, I think that it would be a good idea for the Yankees.

If he proves healthy, then even if you don't need him in the rotation you can take offers for him, because he's definitely a guy that will get a lot of interest.

"Did you notice the 9 million dollar decrease in salary from 2008 to this season, even after signing CC, AJ, and Tex????"

Yeah, they did drop payroll, but lets be fair: They really didn't cut back on salary enough to make that a good claim. They managed to drop so much payroll that they could afford to sign the top three free agents on the market in CC, A.J. and Tex, while also resigning Marte and Pettitte, and adding Nick Swisher.

The Yankees basically dropped so much money that they spent as much money as logically possible, and still managed to have a lesser payroll because they were wasting so much money before.

its more like 27 mil, because the yankees will re-sign Damon. If they keep pettitte or sign someone at the same price, they may only add payroll signing a CF/LF and possibly a bullpen arm. I'd say the payroll will at least be around $189,000,000

Wasn't Wang's biggest problem this year the fact that the Yankee's doctors didn't diagnose/treat him properly?

Classy.

Also, why in the world would the Yankee's want a proven groundball pitcher in the new stadium? It isn't like they have the biggest improvement in slugging (due to the long ball) of any team with a new stadium, ever.

"Even if the Yankees reinvest half the money coming off the books thats still roughly a $20 million payroll cut."

There's also $14M in raises nest year.

Offer CM Wang a 2 Yr 5 Million Dollar Contract. With Incentives. this way you pay him very little to rehab in 2010, and you have him as a late season replacement for phil hughes.. who will be on an inning count and prob have to go to the pen. and you may just have your old CMW back by 2011

Umm, they didn't need Tex? Who did they have to put at first base? Swisher? Who then would have played right this year? AJ Burnett I'll grant you was a luxury buy, but CC and Tex definitely filled enormous holes.

And about their stadium, the "tiny right field porch" is no more obnoxious than Fenway's monstrosity in left. Oh, and the new stadium actually has a smaller seating capacity than the old one.

"Who then would have played right this year?"

The Angels picked up a guy who probably could've done a decent job. That's not to say I don't think nabbing Teixeira wasn't absolutely the right thing for them to do. For all the talk of Jeter's improvement this year in the field, I'd bet a good percent of that is having someone other than Giambi catching his terrible throws.

"And about their stadium, the "tiny right field porch" is no more obnoxious than Fenway's monstrosity in left"

Oh yes it is. No one can deny that Fenway is a hitter's park, but that short right porch is an absolute joke. There's a good .200 point discrepancy in Johnny Damon's OPS home/away splits thanks to that little league fence. The Green Monster coughs up the occasional cheap towering fly ball homer (Alex Gonzalez is a prime example of a hitter who'd be useless without it), but it tends to rob a lot more home runs to left than it gives up.

Something that hasn't been discussed much in this discussion is the free agent pool at SP this year.

I personally have never felt the Wang was an Ace, so to me the upside potential caps out at really solid 3rd starter, at best. If he's a KC Royal for the last five years he'd probably have never had a 12
win season by now.
That being said, if I'm the Yankees I non-tender him and go after a more healthy option.

"That's exactly what they do! They obviously didn't need Teixeira, but they still signed him anyway. They needed Sabathia, but they overpaid for him. They didn't need A.J. Burnett, but they still signed and way overpaid for him. How can you say they don't throw money away? Not only do they do that on players, but instead of renovating and adding to the old Yankee Stadium, they built a newer one. Same dimensions, same wall heights with the exception of the tiny right field porch but it just has some more seats. How is that not wasting money?"

You REALLY think Teixeira was a waste of Money? He's the difference between the Yankees and the Red Sox.

You REALLY think Sabathia and Burnett were wastes of money? They're not an improvement over Darrell Rasner and Sidney Ponson? OK. I think the Yankees record this year pretty much puts your argument to rest.

And at least try to get your facts straight. New Yankee Stadium has fewer seats, not more.

Fenway Park is where right handed hitters go to get cheap doubles. And seriously. It's 302 ft around Pesky's pole. And it's rather easy to poke a home run or ground rule double out there. Plus...look how high the walls are in Fenway in right field. Players can crawl over those things! It's pretty easy to get (and rob) home runs to right field in Fenway.

I'm not saying our short right porch is helping out our lefthanders big time. I'm trying to say that it's not like other ballparks don't have their quirks that tailor to their hitters. Teams that win are teams that play well at home. Nothing wrong with making your ballpark a boon to your players.

On the subject-Wang deserves a contract. I offer him arbitration. HOPEFULLY Joba has no innings limit next year so he can actually pitch. Phil should have probably a 170 limit, so you can use Wang to fill out his starts once he reaches the limit. Resign Damon at 10 mil a year, deal with the raises, bringing us to about 30 million. Or, go after Holliday and let Damon walk.

"Players can crawl over those things! It's pretty easy to get (and rob) home runs to right field in Fenway."

It sure is. 2 that stick in my mind happened in 1969 and other from the '75WS. 1st was NYY OF'er Roy White falling into a crowd in RF to take a homer away from Yaz and other Dwight Evans taking one away from Joe Morgan during the WS, then you have to hit the ball a LONG WAY in RF at fenway, or at least very high in LF to get one out don't you.

Umm, they didn't need Tex? Who did they have to put at first base? Swisher? Who then would have played right this year? AJ Burnett I'll grant you was a luxury buy, but CC and Tex definitely filled enormous holes.
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You can never have enough pitching. Yanks replaced Mussina and Pavano with CC and AJ. What's the problem?

I would hope that the Yankees keep Wang. Non-tendering him would be a gamble, as mentioned, another team would be tempted by his back-to-back 19 win seasons and offer him something better.

Before CC and AJ arrived, Wang was the Yankees best pitcher. When he's right, he's great. On this club, even when healthy, he's our #3 pitcher...what a luxury!

I mean look at what we've got right now...Gaudin/Mitre? The Yankees and their #5 rotation spot...they need Wang.

A strong Wang thats up for the whole season and doesn't get hurt. (Yes, I said it!)

"Haha...no. NO advantage provided by the Green Monster. Not including VMart they have 9 players w/ at least 18 dbls or more."

You build a team that fits the park, only try also to build one that is capable of winning on the road also and Boston has been top 3 every season in doubles for decades, even after they put up the new press box early 90's to take away pop up HR's that made players like Rico Petrocelli into HR hitters.

"Sign Wang to a 2 year deal w/ a nice base"

Not sure if any kind of multi year would be wise, since Wang and his agent will want $$$ even with the leg injury year season of 2009. A arbitration offer for 2010 may give him the incentive to play harder and then see about a 2 year offer if he rebounds?

They only need to spend 5 mils on the guy to keep him, I mean he really really wanna stay in NY. If things don't work out by mid-year just trade Wang before 31/7/09 there will be plenty of teams willing to take a risk with a starter like him eg Red Sox with Smoltz and Bird.

Btw how much did they spend on Pavano and how many games did he pitch?

Cashman really messed around with Wang this year. As Wang's fellow countryman I'd rather have him going to the Dodgers cuz he seems to pitch better under Joe. And don't forget the Dodgers have another TW pitcher Kuo and how many Tommy Lees did he have?

While Wang was one of the most overrated pitchers over the last few years, there is something to be said that he was good enough to go deep into games to get all those wins. At the least, taking a flyer on him is worth the 4-7M that he will be owed. Especially since it's the Yankees

Posted by: bigpupp | September 10, 2009 at 07:23 PM
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Really? Overrated? Obvious by what? All the awards and recognition he didn't get? Wang is a victim of not being a big strikeout guy. Let him rack up 180+ k's and he would be as respected as Beckett.

Firstly, the Yankees will retain Wang. Why not? At 5 million, if they can get him for Sept and a possible postseason run, they'd take him even as just a long reliever at that price. If not, they can afford the loss. Plus they would be wise to keep him under team control until he's a FA and they might be able to get some compensation from him if he puts up some decent numbers after his return (no Type A, but maybe Type B in a best-case scenario for him)

And on a side note, I like how people are basing Fenway's park effects on random plays they saw once. "It's a hitters park because I saw a cheap pop up home run!" vs "It's not a hitters park because you can steal home runs!" For those interested, people you know.. study these things statistically. And if you did, you would find that Fenway is about average for home runs (you lose about as many to the monster and deep center as you gain in other areas). Due to its lack of foul territory and the wall, it does help batting average somewhat.

It does increase doubles, but you also have to think that some of those "doubles" would have been home runs elsewhere. I don't recall the exact stats on that, but I would guess it would mean that Fenway's increase on slugging percentage would be proportionate to the batting average increase for this reason. The doubles might give a very slight independent extra bump to SLG, but not a major factor IMO.

So, in conclusion- Fenway is a hitters park:
AVG = Goes up
HR = Stays same
SLG = Goes up, probably close to something like SLG' = SLG*(AVG'/AVG)

Where STAT' indicates a stat in Fenway versus a neutral park. I would expect that, because if average goes up- you would expect it to be evenly distributed among the types of hits. In Fenway, we know this to not be true. HR stay about constant, so they are not increasing as a function of AVG. I would expect this to be counterbalanced by the fact that doubles increase a bit more than proportional to average (due to extra 'wall doubles' that would have been outs).

I suspect that the Yankees will non-tender Wang. He is simply not worth a spot on the 40-man roster until he has proven that he has rehabbed and will be effective again. Provided the Yankees can have assurances of signing him to a minor league contract and that he will not be eligible for the Rule 5 draft, I think signing him to a minor league deal is the best option. Keep in mind that if he is activated off the DL and is not effective, the Yankees will have to make up another injury or put him on waivers (from which he would assuredly be claimed). Not sure if he can no longer be optioned if he is signed to a minor-league deal and called up, but it would allow the Yankees to keep him in the minors for as long as necessary to make sure he is right before calling him up, and he would not take up a 40-man or 25-man roster spot.

-JM

Exactly what did Cashman do tou Wang. I think the Yanks really, really tried to give him every opportunity to turn things around this year.

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Like not communicating with the guy who won 50+ games in less than 4 seasons before telling him to pitch another game, then rush him back to the major leagues the same day? That's the respect shown by GM, don't think they'd do the same thing to ppl like Beckett or other 15+ game winners

I will actually revise my statement, slightly. The first comment I had read previously stated that the short walls and porch, plus the bullpens at Fenway, compensated for those lost to the wall. The park factors do not lie, though. Boston is in fact a HR negative ballpark. Though the increase in doubles is about 2x the decrease in HR, so I stand by my guess on the adjusted SLG.

I am also a Red Sox fan, have been one my entire life. I definitely think that watching games gives you a great idea of why things happen certain ways, but they give a much worse picture of how often things happen. We tend to remember the big plays, not the fly outs or the dribblers. Combine that with the fact that I try my best to forget it when another team hits a HR in Fenway, and you have a very incomplete picture of the facts. ;)