4:45pm: Machado was the Phils’ primary target at one point, per Fancred’s Jon Heyman (Twitter links), but it’s now much more even between him and Harper — if not slightly tilted in Harper’s favor. The Phillies, according to Heyman, are expected to make a formal offer to Harper in the near future.
Even if the Phillies won’t sign both Machado and Harper, Heyman notes that the goal is to sign one and then explore the market for other top free agents like Pollock, Keuchel and Kimbrel. To that end, USA Today’s Bob Nightengale cites team executives with the Phils in tweeting that organization has “visions” of signing the trio of Harper, Keuchel and Kimbrel. Paired with the prior acquisitions of Jean Segura and Andrew McCutchen, among others, that’d obviously be a seismic roster overhaul — the magnitude of which has been virtually unparalleled by any team in recent memory.
Of course, striving to add that trio and actually signing all three are two entirely separate animals, and it remains to be seen how feasible it is that the Phillies could win the bidding on three of the market’s top remaining free agents.
1:00pm: With a surprisingly small number of teams engaged on superstar free agents Bryce Harper and Manny Machado, it has at times seemed as if the big-budget Phillies are the favorites to land both players. Of course, even if the Philadelphia org is the likeliest single team to secure the services of each, that does not mean that it should be expected to come away with a pair of monster deals. Still, the possibility of hooking two free agent trophies has remained tantalizing to consider.
In the course of an interesting breakdown of the current situation, though, Matt Gelb of The Athletic (subscription link) strikes a blow to the idea of the Phillies making successive strikes for both Harper and Machado. The Phils, he reports, have “made this much clear during negotiations: They will not sign both players.”
Certainly, there was never anything approaching an expectation that the Phillies would land both, or even that they’d seriously consider taking on two huge salaries. But it’s still a notable bit of seemingly hard information in a market situation that has remained exceedingly fluid, so far as is known publicly.
As Gelb explains, moreover, that stance is perhaps a notable aspect of the Phillies’ strategy in approaching both Harper and Machado. If the club’s money is only there for one of the two players, that conveys no small amount of leverage. Even if both players would rather end up elsewhere, they surely can’t ignore the presence of the Phils’ ample pocketbooks in navigating a surprisingly barren field of pursuers.
Perhaps the best case scenario for the Philadelphia club would be for one of these two players to jump on a big but palatable offer to join on. Of course, their respective representatives — Scott Boras, for Harper, and Dan Lozano, for Machado — have played this game before. We’ve seen teams emerge from the woodwork in the past to land players of this quality with surprisingly massive contracts. As Gelb rightly suggests, the presence (or absence) of “mystery teams” — whether as active bidders or as conjured by the agents — may go a long way toward influencing the course of negotiations.
Gelb says the Philly club intends to continue exercising confident patience in talks. The situation seems ripe for that approach, though surely the team would be better-situated if Harper or Machado had a stronger personal desire to end up in Philly. Really, there seem only to be a few risks here (beyond those that are inherent to such a major investment, which the team has already largely resolved in favor of action).
Those risks seem manageable. One is simply that the team loses out on the player it prefers to land, which would appear to be Machado. Given that the roster is susceptible of upgrades at both the corner outfield and third base, that’s not a major worry. Another is that it ends up having to pay a bit more by allowing the bidding to get going in earnest. Paying a premium now to forestall that possibility seems unwise, when the Phillies can surely afford to cover a higher price if that ends up being required. (This is the point of the post where I quote owner John Middleton on his willingness to spend “stupid money” this winter.)
Finally, the Phils could end up missing on both players. Gelb says the team is confident it will land one of the two, though surely there’s some possibility that they’ll both head elsewhere. That is perhaps the most concerning outcome, though even then there are alternatives. A.J. Pollock, Dallas Keuchel, and Craig Kimbrel are the leading three alternative remaining free agents; all would be hypothetical fits. And the trade market is all but sure to have some intriguing targets still available, even if it means coughing up more prospect capital than the team might wish. Losing the star power would hurt, but it seems reasonable to think the Phillies could still back-fill the missing talent.
All things considered, there are still many ways in which things could shake out — with both Harper and Machado landing in Philadelphia evidently not among them. Today’s news may not be earth-shattering, but it does cabin the universe of foreseeable outcomes. With hundreds of millions of dollars at stake, in a slow-moving and increasingly tense market setting, it’s a signpost that’s at least worthy of keeping in mind.
ronnsnow
In other news, water is wet.
swanhenge
Beat me to it. Next article “CC Sabathia Discontinues Experiment to Pitch Right Handed”
It’s pretty barren around baseball these days.
slowcurve
This just in: Cici’s will rename garbage pizza chain to CC’s. A nod to the robust New York Yankees pitcher.
JrodFunk5
Unparalleled? What about the 2015 Padres?
Ejemp2006
Same thought but you post faster! Lol! 2015 Padre big splash for offseason turned into disaster and for setback team big time. BUT, Phillies look for add to by signing not by trading future. In other thought, maybe we share, if Phillie go for the gusto, surprise with sign Harper, Machado, Keuchel, and even Kimbrel then miss playoff? Players Union lose bigly in that scenario. More proof, big money signs not key to winning! Player development now key to winning!
ChicagOs
or the 2013 Blue Jays.
sign Cy Young Dickey
trade for Buehrle, Reyes, Johnson and Bonafacio
goathedxxx
They sign all and two get hurt in spring training…season over. Exactly, Cubs and Astros won championships building then executing and to a lesser extent even Boston. MLB is not the NFL or NBA where these things can and do happen occasionally
joncoley
Exactly.
Carrington Spensor
ronnsnow,
Yes.
This speculation has been going on for 3-1/2 months now.
Fans reading this stuff – which has included hundreds of “Breaking News!” stories – are no more advanced then they were the day after the season ended. There are too many outlets and media people covering MLB. Everyone wants clicks and attention. Unfortunately, it’s information overload…..and by now most following this soap opera are numb and indifferent.
Waiting on the story about the signing announcement. Didn’t bother with this one. Looking foreward to my teams spring training.
petfoodfella
Water is not wet. Water is a liquid that leaves you wet. Just FYI.
Black Ace57
Don’t listen to this lie. He is a shill for the water industry. Water is indeed wet.
Polymath
I am currently barely touching water at 25 degrees Fahrenheit, it isn’t wet … I swear.
petfoodfella
Because science. It’s a liquid. It’s not wet. I’m not in the water industry. Lol
BartoloHRball
That’s exactly what a person in the water industry would say!
Black Ace57
#Woosh
canocorn
Hah!
Mack83 is obviously code for Hinckley and Schmidt.
You are SO busted.
juicemane
No such thing as liquid h20 below 31 degrees Fahrenheit
Cat Mando
juicemane
Running water and water in clouds can be well below that. The absolute freezing point for running water is about 48 degrees below zero Celsius. That’s roughly 85-88 below in Fahrenheit (I would have to actually do the math and not rough it out in my head)
Ejemp2006
Wet? More like always refresh. Ice cube for drink? Yes, two please! Cool tall glass? Thanks! Steam mist for my lady, yep yep yep!
Signed ejemp2006 AKA I swear I’m no Mr Aquafina! LOL
juicemane
Cloud are gaseous dummy. The running water in my pipes freezes here in Vegas almost every year…hint: it aint negative 85 dummy…Just make up fake science like you do fake baseball stats, just to troll. You’re a sick sick person
Cat Mando
juicemane……….
Be an actual thinking human being and look it up. If that is beyond your capacity I will find the source for you.
BTW…clouds contain water.
On second thought…you will probably mess up a search.
“We’ve all been taught that water freezes at 32 degrees Fahrenheit, 0 degrees Celsius, 273.15 Kelvin. That’s not always the case, though. Scientists have found liquid water as cold as -40 degrees F in clouds and even cooled water down to -42 degrees F in the lab. How low could they go?”
smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/at-what-temperat…
Now, who is the dummy?
Cat Mando
juicemane
I will admit one error. I did not mean to type “The absolute freezing point for running water…” It should have been “The absolute freezing point for water”
BTW…leave your faucets dripping and under sink cabinets open as it appears you have poor insulation, if any, around your pipes.
I admitted my mistake. Can you do the same?
BTW…running water can be as much as -3c because of molecular friction and pressure
adc6r
Well Cat,
I think the Juice done run out!
RedRooster
Melting and boiling points are lower at lower pressures and vice versa. The pressure is lower in the sky where clouds are so liquid water can exist below 32 Fahrenheit there.
adc6r
Dang empirical literalists
sethesq
you sit upon a throne of lies!
Mikel Grady
So are tears of gm and fans when player who cripples their payroll signs one of these big contrasts. Pujols jr and Pujols the III coming soon .
Yelsnit
Guess that “stupid” money isn’t so stupid.
RedFeather
Unless they sign Trout and Harper
dirtydan
Trouts not a free agent
clepto
Thank you, Captain Obvious
dirtydan
^dude said sign trout. Might wanna get your panties out of a wad
clepto
I dont care what he said, Mr Obvious.
juicemane
IDK, they did give McCutchen 50 mil…
SheltonMatthews
And that does seem stupid
juicemane
Heck Carlos Santana, Jake Arettia, didnr they teade for Ramos last year for some reason? The ‘stupidness’ was on-going
raef715
well of course they wouldnt say they could sign both players even if they wanted to.
they can be the highest bidder on both players and if each player thinks their offer is gone if the other one signs, that gives the phils some leverage., though of course neither guy has jumped yet.
Coast1
They may be the highest bidder on both right now but the amount isn’t enough for either player to jump at it. They think there might be more. Right now the Phillies hold the leverage if they are high bidder on both. Only one guy gets that high offer and they can wait for one to decide. Neither agent wants to lose the Phillies as a bidder when negotiating with another team.
If one of them signs somewhere else, however, they lose that leverage. Now the remaining player has leverage. They know the Phillies are desperate and there’s no alternative.
nashvillecardsfan
The caveat to this would be if the first player to sign does so with the Phillies, they now lose big time leverage to negotiate with other teams.
fasbal1
They are both waiting for the Phillies to outbid the Phillies…
JFactor
Or they could both sign with the Phillies at the same time, and then it doesn’t matter
adc6r
Free Mason Conspiracy
or
Free Agent Conspiracy?
Signing Collusion?
or
Bling Bling Illusion
Either way get ‘er done already would ya!
harmoney101575
Be happy with getting 1… Philly is not signing both… that is a pipe dream.
They clearly may not get either let alone both…. LMAO
raef715
understood. no expectation of both, but it’s not completely out of the realm of the possible as other suitors seem to fall off.
harmoney101575
if other suitors fall off… the price will drop and more suitors will jump back in… no way 1 team signs both. That was never realistic Cmon MAN!
canocorn
Winning 2 lottery jackpots is not realistic either, but it’s happened.
(Not to me, of course. Now, THAT would be un-possible.)
((Reverse jinx!!))
dirtydan
Can we get a resounding yawn from the commenters?
acarneglia
Yawn
Houston We Have A Solution
Harper and sign keuchel 4 years with a 5th year mutual option to bolster the rotation. Then maybe trade for some pen help.
Yates n stammen in sd
Pirates have a surplus they could deal from
Smith Watson in sf
Givens in balt.
lowtalker1
What are you giving up for stammen and Yates? Don’t say Franco lol
nmc420theambassador
for a pairing of an elite bullpen duo in stammen and yates, that should easily return alec bohm and nothing less.
Pads Fans
That level of bullpen pieces got us the best catching prospect in baseball. Bohm is not as good of a prospect, but would probably be enough. Might have to add a MLB ready pitching prospect to make sure AJ would take the deal. Drew Anderson?
mlb1225
Pirates aren’t selling right now. Probably wouldn’t trade any of their relief pitchers (especially Vasquez) unless it was some outstanding deal.
herecomethephillies2018
Hahahaha. The Pirates are ALWAYS selling, make no mistake.
mlb1225
The Pirates are never selling. They sell of one or two pieces and call it an off season.
brucebochyisthemarlboroman
FFS just sign somewhere!!!
ldfanatic
just sign already
jmpatrick89
Garbage news
Crazytrain10
Booooooooring. Just sign somewhere so the rest of the offseason can unfold.
lowtalker1
Teams can just say f them and start signing people
Watch there market almost evaporate for being greedy and stupid
unpaidobserver
Manny goes for 3/$75 and your team wasn’t involved think you’d change your tune.
whynot101
Stupid monies would have already signed one or the other but sounds like living in philly isn’t their top choice? Just a guess
Rickey O'Sunnyvale
And I won’t be marrying jennifer aniston and jennifer lawrence.
dirtydan
Damn sorry man
ramonskee
I can see that MLB originally would’ve loved the thought of grabbing headlines throughout the offseason with these two megastars remaining unsigned for so long and a new rumor swirling each day. But even MLB higher ups have to be annoyed by how long this has dragged out as fans are now turned off. Not sure how this can be solved. Shorten the offseason FA window by ending it earlier and having a “freeze period” in the month of January? Who knows.
think it thru
Players playing a multi million dollar game, getting 25-30+ MM while their fans struggle to work for NO pay. Some kind of serious disconnect going on!
KranzwithaK
Nobody is paying 80 bucks for a 3 hour window to watch you perform at your desk job.
Cole Shepherd
I don’t know, man. YouTube is a funky place.
BartoloHRball
Challenge….accepted?
KnicksFanCavsFan
i guarantee you the league could careless. they have more to worry about than fans on a website. these are major decisions for players and teams.
ramonskee
They could careless? So they care? That’s all I’m looking for – it’s for them to care and maybe do something about it.
BrewCrew1302
no $h1T
macstruts
It may be an obvious point, but it needs to be said. Whoever takes the Phillies offer first will be a Philly and the other offer will be rescinded.
Again, it’s obvious, but it’s worth saying.
stymeedone
You mean “IF” somebody take their offer.
Syndergaarden Cop
No one seriously thought that to begin with…
harmoney101575
no… all of philly thought that LMAO
trace
Let’s just focus on signing one them first.
dellapple
I predict they sign neither player and we are left with the same old Phillies team.
ScottRolen
Sign both or sign neither.
Signing one does nothing for the Phillies. It’s an attendance gimmick.
Trade Aaron Nola. Houston is a good destination for Forrest Whitley and Kyle Tucker. That will help reboot the Phillies endless rebuild.
I would rather be shot by a SWAT team than watch old man Andrew McCutchen play for the Phillies.
If Harper AND Machado are not Phillies teammates in 2019 I will make it necessary for the police to shoot me. My pain will be over.
I’ve had enough of the criminals who own the Phillies and I’m not going to take anymore of their criminal acts against me.
raef715
im up for watching McCutchen and the Swat team in action
Cat Mando
ScottRolen
Every time I read your posts I “hear” it in the voice of the character John Pope fro Falling Skies.
Wild-eyed, crazed, egomaniacal, and always wrong.
DadsInDaniaBeach
Free, you never learn…that’s the type of comment that got you reported to the FBI….remember?
kabphillie
Dads, I was thinking the same thing.
vtadave
Casey’s Partner / ScottRolen – you don’t by chance have your own manifesto do you?
TheRoadDogg
Ah, I always knew Casey’s Partner would come back.
kabphillie
He always comes back.
Cat Mando
“I’ve had enough of the criminals who own the Phillies and I’m not going to take anymore of their criminal acts against me.” LOL
Maybe they singled you out because of your crimes against them and others, or did you forget about that?
harmoney101575
getting niether of them… THAT WOULD BE AMAZING… LOVE THAT CONCEPT !!!!!
pinkerton
this is just getting silly now.
Frank kemble
I think next year’s free agent class is potentially just as talented. Aranado, Ozuna, scooter gennett, starling marte, gerritt Cole, etc..they could land one or Harper or machardo, plus a guy like kimbrel for instance and pick up another big player next off season
HalosHeavenJJ
Agree, Frank. I think next year’s class has more depth than this class.
PghPinstripes
Pirates have options on Marte for $11.5M in 2020 and $12.5M in 2021.
MDNyyClipper07
Everything is lining up perfectly for the Yankees to get Machado at a cheaper price than they could ever imagine and they aren’t going to pull the trigger. Unreal.
dirtbagfreitas
I still think it happens. Cash is hiding in the weeds on this one.
harmoney101575
they have 2 many infielders… no room for him =)
megaj
Easily remedied with a trade of either Andujar or Torres for another solid starter
harmoney101575
the yankees are not making any more major moves… LEVANTATE (WAKE UP)!!!!
megaj
I haven’t heard that, what source? What do they do when Didi gets back then? LeMahieu is full time 2B. That leaves Andujar, Torres, Didi, and Tulowitzki sharing 2 positions. It seems to me a trade is obvious, and I wouldn’t rule out Machado yet.
canocorn
No problem finding takers.
Trouble is, finding decent return(s).
PinstripedPride
Tulo has done nothing, so you could just DFA him. Or trade Andujar for a solid return. Either way, there’s room on the team for Machado if the brass want him
Francys01
Come on sign both, spend the stupid money. This action is necessary to compete with the Braves, Washington and Mets.
harmoney101575
according to AA the braves are 70% of the way to closing on a trade… just working out the secondary components! I knew they were not done making moves…. STILL NL EAST CHAMPS until proven otherwise =)
Hopefully the final outcome of the offseason puts them in line to move to the top of the NL =)
harmoney101575
downvote… but its the truth LMAO!!!!!
Syndergaarden Cop
Source on the Braves trade?
harmoney101575
12up.com/posts/6272101-braves-gm-alex-anthopoulos-…
I am hoping for Cleveland for Kluber, Texas for Gallo and Lecleric, or DBacks for Greinke and Peralta =)
Syndergaarden Cop
Thanks
Gfee0907
Machado to the Padres. Mark my words!
Syndergaarden Cop
No one wants to play for that perennially trash squad
megaj
San Diego has pretty great year round climate and lots to do on days off. If I planned on living in the city I play in, I would definitely consider it for the location. In my opinion Petco is also way nicer than say Dodger Stadium (which is one of my least favorite parks to see a game). The area around the park is pretty cool as well with the Convention Center being nearby where they hold the Comic-con.
Pads Fans
When it came to just this situation, only a couple of teams bidding, last offseason AJ signed the largest contract for a position player. If all its going to take to sign Machado is 8 years with a $25 million AAV then the Padres could very well be in on him. Any more than that and signing him would hamper their ability to add other pieces that they need to compete like starting pitching. .
upstatemetsfan
I hope the Phillies sign Harper to a ridiculous deal so they shut themselves out of the Mike Trout sweepstakes in 2 years.
LGM
Jimcarlo Slaton
Absolutely zero chance they eliminate themselves from an opportunity to acquire Trout.
Other circumstances might but they won’t screw themselves that badly.
Kennypowers999
Phillies will not get trout when he hit free agent.
Robertowannabe
“With a surprisingly small number of teams engaged on superstar free agents Bryce Harper and Manny Machado”… Why is this surprising?? Both players want 10 years @ at least $30 million per. All of the MLB teams have seen the majority of such long term deals turn sour on the clubs that sign such players. Very few teams are willing to risk that much guaranteed money on players any more.
Pads Fans
Its not surprising. It is exactly what happens every year on the top few free agents. How many teams were rumored to be in on Darvish, JD Martinez, or Hosmer last off season? How many were in on Cespedes or Chapman the year before?
Saint Chris
Anybody else think the Phillies are trying to compete too soon? I mean, who are the core players they are trying to build around? Hoskins and Nola alone? It looks like they’re trying to repeat the disaster of their pre-rebuild days when they couldn’t crack the post season with their aging, injury-prone roster.
Saint Chris
I can see the Braves and Reds adding pieces to compete. They have core players at team-friendly deals at multiple positions and stacked farm systems. The Philles have how many championship-level players? One? Two?
ScottRolen
They’ve been rebuilding for SEVEN years.
Philadelphia is three times the size of St. Louis.
Saint Chris
The lack of core players and legitimate World Series hopes is why the Phillies are option 2 or 3 for Harper and Machado.
ScottRolen
Sign both Machado and Harper and there’s your core talent.
Saint Chris
Yep. Core talent. At 70+ mil a year. Payroll is at or exceeding luxury tax levels by the time opening day rolls around, and there is no room for free-agent signings for years to come and you’re still not the favorite in the NL East. As a Phillies fan, you gotta be used to that, though.
The Krukker
Rebuild didn’t really start until after 2013 or 2014. Went to the LDS in 2011 and thought they still had a core to compete in 2012. They should have started rebuilding sooner, that’s what was frustrating, but the rebuild itself is only 5 or 5 1/2 years old not 7.
Jimcarlo Slaton
They’ve made some nice pickups.. Segura and a decent lefty reliever Pazos from Seattle, McCutchen was a little overpriced but still a nice player, David Robertson is excellent.. I wish they’d get moving on a starting pitcher but can understand their reluctance with the remaining free agents.. They made a good offer to Patrick Corbin..
Saint Chris
They have made nice pickups, but you would like to have several skilled players pre-arb. You don’t want the core of your team on big free agent deals.
mrshyguy99
The fact Harper had a down year with his batting avg and the fact Manny struggle with the dodgers doesn’t help their case to be sign to a big contact that they might want
Santee Alley
Machado’s numbers with the Dodgers were exactly on par with his career numbers.
rocknwell
In other words: Harper to Washington, Machado to Pittsburg. Ha! #darkhorse
Saint Chris
Wouldn’t it be nice if Pittsburgh ownership would actually spend some money?
megaj
Yeah, but on pitching. It would also be nice if fans in Pittsburgh actually supported their team, they have a great stadium.
El Kabong
But a lousy team.
Saint Chris
I believe if Pirates ownership was more willing to put a quality product on the field, fans would be more willing to go to games. They had a tremendous core for a while with McCutchen, Gerit Cole, Starling Marte, and others. Ownership was just never willing to sign a few key players to put them over the top.
mlb1225
20 straight losing seasons puts you on edge. Like Saint Chris said, they had a really good core, but fans got tired of ownership never willing to spend money to put them over the top.
goldenmisfit
Sounds to me like they refuse to admit neither starhas any interest in playing in Philadelphia.
Cat Mando
I never expected any team to sign both. I still think Manny’s is the primary target. Infield defense was awful but now getting better. Manny at 3rd (he said for the right deal he would play 3rd) would help that
Prospectnvstr
Nationals to withdraw offer to Harper, sign Manny to play 3rd & trade Rendon for prospects
steliokontos
Between this non stop crap and Pro Football Rumors only talking about coach signings, my work days are pretty boring. Maybe I should just work…
luclusciano
I was thinking the exact same today. First day I only looked at the ap once.
canocorn
Don’t raise the bar just to alleviate short-term boredom. Permanent solution to a temporary problem.
BTW, they hiring?
luclusciano
Always. But would t want you to have to lower the bar to enjoy boredom
jekporkins
Considering it’s less than a month until pitchers and catcher report, I can only assume once one of these guys sign it’s going not be a trickle-down effect, but a full blast. There are so many players waiting this out it’s ridiculous. I’m not just talking about free agency, but trades too.
tharrie0820
Is it really that surprising that there aren’t that many times in on players looking for 10+ years. $300M+ contracts?
Idosteroids
We see this sort of profound headlines from Nightengale on a daily basis,
mistry gm
Drop negotiations with both. They are WAY overpriced and there are many other prospects out there who may have a better season than either. NOBODY is worth $350 million to play baseball. If Babe Ruth were alive today, in this market his agent would be asking $750 million. This has become nonsense.
James1955
Babe Ruth made bi money for his day
James1955
big
megaj
I think he made close to a 100K one year in the late 20’s or early 30’s. With adjustments for inflation I think that would be about 1.5 million today. So you can see the problem with today’s market
Cat Mando
The average income was $1,368 in 1930 while the Babe was making $80,000/year. $80,000 was his max pay and that was at the start of the depression.
baseball-reference.com/players/r/ruthba01.shtml#al…
Cat Mando
megaj….the first federal minimum was was was established in 1938 at $0.25/hour. If you try and use inflation to establish a minimum wage today(actually 2018), that wage would only be $4.45.
officialdata.org/1938-dollars-in-2018?amount=0.25
megaj
Yeah, well that’s still my point. 80K= roughly around just over 1 million he would be making in today’s market. Not too much for arguably the greatest player to ever live. I think what he made back then was justified, I don’t think what Harper wants is.
Cat Mando
What? “Yeah, well that’s still my point. 80K= roughly around just over 1 million he would be making in today’s market.”. Player salaries are not tied to inflation. The Babe would be making way, way more than $1MM+
That is the point.
I agree that Harper is not worth record setting money but they market may bare it and that is not tied to inflation.
The only player the least bit comparable, living or dead, to the Babe is Trout and if he wants it he will break all records in FA
Coast1
In the Babe’s day team revenues were mostly or entirely ticket sales. I’m betting that Babe’s salary as a percent of total team revenue was as high as anyone today.
jekporkins
Don’t try to compare these two dweebs to the Bambino. He was the Michael Jordan of MLB when he played. Or, better yet, Jordan was the Babe Ruth of his time.
sufferforsnakes
Babe Ruth was worth more to the game than any player ever will be.
muzzachunka
If Babe was playing today he wouldn’t have hit 714 HR & would have struck out a lot more. Pitching wasn’t what it is now. And he’d look like Sabathia going to plate.
Cat Mando
muzzachunka….
As with any hypothetical there are caveats. We aren’t talking about time traveling The Babe from 1919 to 2019. There is also the assumption that Ruth was always fat and slow. He was about 6’2″ and 215 lbs. much of his career.
You have to consider the many larger parks back then (read “The Year Babe Ruth Hit 104 Home Runs” by HoF historian Bill Jenkinson).
Also consider that Walter Johnson’s famous 122 fps pitch (83.2 mph) was measured 7.5 feet behind “home plate” Using physics and math that translates to 93.8 mph when you adjust for the distance at which radar guns measure today (watch the documentary “Fastball”….side note Nolan Ryan’s famous 100.6 was actually 108.5 mph and Bob Feller threw at 107+)
There is now way to know if others were throwing 90+. Some say Smokey Joe Wood was just as fast or faster than Johnson.
All of that said you have to consider “if Ruth played today” it would mean he would have had access to all of today’s training and and would have been facing today’s pitchers throughout. It’s impossible to say “he wouldn’t have hit 714 HR & would have struck out a lot more. ”
Of course the easy answer is…he would strike out a lot and not homer as much…he would be 124 year old come Feb 6th.
canocorn
Which is worth more, …
Babe Ruth rookie card or,
Methuselah rookie card?
Cat Mando
I would have to go with Methuselah, but a card from his age 960+. It’s gotta be rare.
megaj
Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn’t the mound higher then as well at 15″? They lowered in the late 60’s to create more offense. Pitchers also got away with a lot more in Ruth’s era with the spitballs, etc.
Cat Mando
megaj……sorry it took awhile…I wasn’t feeling well
The first “mound with a pitching rubber”was established in the early 1890’s at 15”. Before that there was a “pitcher’s box” (various sizes through the years” and a pitcher could throw from anywhere in the box.
You are correct that it was lowered to 10″ after “The Year of the Pitcher” in 1968.
I just hope they never consider lowering it again. If they want more offence teach guys how to make contact and hit consistently.
The Spitter was banned in 1920 but those who were using it were “grandfathered” in and allowed to use it the rest of their careers
Aaron Sapoznik
The good news for White Sox fans, at least to this point in time, is nobody has ever reported that their team won’t be amenable to signing both Manny Machado and Bryce Harper. This would include Bruce Levine, Hector Gomez, Bob Nightengale or even their own mlb.com beat writer Scott Merkin.
canocorn
Pssst: Shhh!
Yankeepatriot
Both players don’t want to be a Phillie
raef715
no kidding, but they also want to get paid so if they want the money more than they dont want to be a Phillie.
i’m fine however it works out- it could get ugly if Machado is signed and he’s jogging out there, or Harper is signed and he’s hitting .230. just want it to be over.
harmoney101575
Philly doesnt want to be in Philly either LMAO!!!!
flyerzfan12
You’re like that person that laughs at their own jokes when everyone else looks at each other thinking yeah, lame.
megaj
Okay, time for an intervention. Machado and Harper prediction stories have become your crack, your fix, your addiction. Here we are on story #1042 about Harper and Machado that offers no useful information whatsoever. Ready for a challenge? See if you can go a full 24 hour period without mentioning either one of these guys that you have built up to be the best players ever to hit the free market (NOT!). Let us know when something actually happens…like an actual signing.
canocorn
Okay, starting … now!
Machado (dammit!).
harmoney101575
even with all their moves they are still behind the Braves…
harmoney101575
MCCUTCHEN will not hit better than 260 with 20 jacks (i think the under on 20 BTW)
raef715
come on, my 12 year old could hit 20 playing 80 games at CBP.
harmoney101575
he is an aging outfielder!!! he aint getting better than that LMAO
msqboxer
OK……what does everyone feel the fair market value is for Machado or Harper? My guess is $30MM a year.
Aaron Sapoznik
The notion of fair market value doesn’t really apply to free agency, probably even less so since the ratification of the last CBA. That won’t stop some advanced analytical geeks from conjuring up a formula to suggest one for both Manny Machado and Bryce Harper.
msqboxer
Ok….I’ll ask it a different way…if your team signed Machado or Harper what is the annual salary amount you would say was too much. Let’s not mention years or length of contract.
Priggs89
I don’t think you can just ignore years though… If the White Sox signed Machado for 5 years at $40M/yr, I’d be perfectly fine with it. If they signed him for 10 years at $40M/yr, I’d be a lot more hesitant.
stymeedone
How much would you be willing to pay to get standing room only tickets for your family to see Harper or Machado play? That should be factored into their salaries/value.
Aaron Sapoznik
msqboxer, Priggs89: As a White Sox fan that makes total sense. I would also be fine with the team offering Machado or Harper a 10+ year contract closer to a $30MM AAV, perhaps front loading the deal to reflect their on field value while also giving the club more financial flexibility in the back end of the deal when their younger players and prospects enter their arbitration years and approach free agency.
With the White Sox, you can’t ignore the marketing value that Machado and especially Harper might provide. That value would be greater for them than some other teams that already have star players in place like their rivals on the North Side of town. That contributes to my argument that it would be ludicrous trying to apply a fair market value to any player. Their value would vary from team to team.
Pads Fans
With a max payroll of $135-140 million you would be willing to give one player $40 million of it just because it is for 5 years?
megaj
The market is whatever owners are willing to pay, and whatever fans are willing to pay at the ballpark. Since the 80’s, the “fair” concept has been utterly disintegrated. The highest paid player up until 1990 was 3 million and it was actually affordable to take the whole family out to the game. Now that will cost you hundreds of dollars for crappy seats. You are talking about “fair” being 30 million to an above average player with personality defects?? Inflation has not gone up 1000% in 30 years. People on this board talk about millions of dollars like it something they can relate to, but why would any player need more than a 100 million dollars in their lifetime? Buy a mansion and 20 cars, send your kids to college, eat out every day for 40 years and still have 80 million left? Yet, if one of these guys get signed to closer to 200 million it will be “disappointing”. That being said, to answer your question. Adjusting for inflation and cost of living and what a premier player should make, I would say 10-12M a year. It is not a fair market though, so he will get his 32 million for 7 or 8 years
its_happening
Watch out mega, the “players deserve the money because of the TV contracts the owners negotiated” card might be played on you as it was on me a few weeks back. How rich to tell the owners they didn’t earn that money.
If your estimation made tickets and concessions more affordable it would be a win-win for everyone. Then maybe the younger generation can appreciate baseball by attending more games and allow the older generation to pass the torch. There is a reason the average age of a baseball fan continues to rise.
megaj
I think the owners do have much more responsibility and stress. Taking care of hundreds of employees, payroll, stadium upkeep, adhering to all the league’s rules and regulations, revenue sharing, and not to mention taxes. Its not like they just buy a team and start writing checks. A player just has to practice and play a game 3 hours a day in the summer. But then again, it was the owners themselves who ultimately decided to pay these outlandish salaries. I wouldn’t mind a dual salary cap, one for individual players- say 25 million, and then a team one as well. I think more teams would be competitive under this structure.
DadsInDaniaBeach
Fair market is whatever a team is willing to pay..Has always been that way..
muzzachunka
Manny should be more than Harper. I dont care if Harper plays like his hair is on fire, he’s just not good & consistent as Machado
geejohnny
At least Harper will give 100% and no excuses. Yes, he’ll frequently get injured but I’ll take that attitude for my 300 mil or so.
luclusciano
He has been called out multiple times for not hustling, and even got into a serious argument with a pitcher. He does not give 100%
Cat Mando
He was even benched once by Matt Williams for not hustling.
jekporkins
It’s a tough call. I think we’ve seen the best of Manny. It’s great. It’s consistent. However, I think Harper has the potential to do a heck of a lot more. Will it come to fruition? Time will tell….
sufferforsnakes
$37.45 a month.
Saint Chris
Yep. Around there. Possibly a little more for Harper and a little less for Machado. Those comments by Machado about not hustling are coming back to haunt him. It’s got to be a tough pill to swallow for an owner: signing him to a 10 year deal, paying him to be the face of the franchise, and knowing he’s not going to hustle and be a negative influence on the guys around him.
stretch123
If the Phils land Harper and a player like Keuchel, they’ll instantly become contenders.
Z-A 2
::Throws Brett Myers T-Shirt ‘Jersey’ into trashcan::
GoSoxGo
Wouldn’t the Phillies, the White Sox, or most teams, be better off with Pollock, Keuchal, and Kimbrel than either Machado or Harper?
DarkSide830
are you a Red or White sox fan? because i can see a fan of the world chanpions not wanting opponents to improve their teams to limit competition.
msqboxer
The difference there is age…one group 30 and above the other 26 going into prime.
Oxford Karma
A super team should offer 2 for 75$ to each. They hit free agency at 28 like everyone else.
nicketz
as a yankee fan, i’d be fine if Cashman gave Harper 2/80. If the experiment doesn’t work you’re rid of him when you need to start paying other guys
ps- i know there is no way Harper is taking 2/80.
adc6r
Smart man, posting that disclaimer…
ScottRolen
COLLUSION
O
L
L
U
S
I
O
N
You know it when you see it.
COLLUSION
Cole Shepherd
But hard to see when there isn’t any.
adc6r
Or when smoke gets in your eyes?
Is this CBGBs or just Mowtown?
Robertowannabe
Why should the teams be forced to overpay guaranteed money when history has shown that players paid similar deals have never played up to the value of those contracts? Must the owners keep overpaying?
lowtalker1
Stupid comment
luclusciano
Yep – and know when we don’t see it, like now
Cole Shepherd
“seemingly hard information”
muzzachunka
This means that the White Sox is out of the running for Machado. Another team will offer Manny 15 mill a year for 10 years and a lifetime supply of sunflower seeds, ok him to step on 1st baseman foot, stand at home plate for any batted ball he thinks is an out & he’ll accept it as long as he don’t have to go to White Sox. Anything better than 100 losses a year. And myself hope he hurries up so we can quit hearing all these stupid rumors
Christopher Guzman
Best plan is get 1, add a SP, RP & player opposite who they sign. If they sign Harper upgrade C or 3B,get Machado upgrade OF.
bucketbrew35
Harper, Kimbrel, and Keuchel? That would just be ridiculous.
pd14athletics
“that’d obviously be a seismic roster overhaul — the magnitude of which has been virtually unparalleled by any team in recent memory.”
I’d say the 2009 Yankees should be considered recent. They traded for Nick Swisher, signed Mark Teixeira, CC Sabathia, AJ Burnett, resigned Andy Pettitte, then went on to win World Series.
bitterpadresfan
Kimbrell was also involved in the Padres seismic roster overhaul a few years back.
lowtalker1
The padres overall was the biggest in recent memory but was incomplete
throwinched10
Harper, Keuchel, Kimbrel – PHI
Machado, Ottavino – CWS
Pollock – ATL
Jones – SF
Moustakas – SD
megaj
I think you may have Machado correct, but disagree with the rest
Philliesfan4life
If the phillies can sign Harper • Keuchel • and Kimbrel , they could be the favorite to win the nl east.
DadsInDaniaBeach
I’m a Phan, and don’t see that..it would take some of the kids stepping up big time..also, I don’t like a long term deal with Kimbrel.I would like a Keuchel signing..with that, I’d move Vince Velasquez to the pen..that would make both stronger..just MHO
flyerzfan12
I think adding all 3 would definitely put them right there in contending for the division, but I don’t like a long term deal with Kimbrel either. If the market limits his options and the asking price falls, then I’m definitely interested.
treday
No roster overhaul will ever compare to the Blue Jays after that massive Marlins-Jays blockbuster
ScottRolen
Marlins last winter.
Where were you?
stymeedone
What about Charles O Finley selling off Reggie, Rudi, Bando and Rollie?
treday
Well ya got me there!
stymeedone
Ah, the person to be asking about collusion is not John Middleton.
basquiat
The Phillies are getting a lot of press out of this. They better deliver this year.
pustule bosey
yeah it’s crazy, I never heard of them before this.
Charles Messick
Harper and Machado need to make up their minds who they want to play for and sign with that team because I’m tired of seeing everyday how they are going to make a decision any day.
Vizionaire
as if you or anyone else should make life-altering decision on a whim!
macstruts
I don’t know why the low number of suitors is surprising. These two players want the highest contracts in baseball history but…
Machado actions last October were so pathetic that a well run high-school program would have suspended him.
Harper wants the highest contract in the history of baseball, but his rank in WAR over the last five years is 17th.
I’m not the least bit surprised there are so few suitors.
SheaGoodbye
Regardless of whether my Mets come out on top, I’m really looking forward to the battle of the NL East this year. With every team except the Marlins on the rise and/or making moves, it should be entertaining at the very least.
As a baseball fan, that’s all I really ask for. That, and a World Series ring at least once every decade.
joepanikatthedisco
Y’all have 2 rings in 6 decades. 1 ring per 30 years. There are 30 teams so that’s fair.
adc6r
Like the Screenname
Maaku
Why would anyone pay him 400 million..? The big budget teams don’t need him and the building teams can take half that and buy 3 excellent players. 80 million tops
joepanikatthedisco
M and H aren’t signed yet because of market forces. Nothing wrong with that. Call it collusion if you want but it’s just shrewd business in my mind.
ChiSoxCity
Honestly though, it IS collusion. The MLB wants the offseason free agency process drawn out to maintain the public’s interest, just as the NBA wants the summer to be focused on where Kevin Durant or Anthony Davis goes. They could have easily had this wrapped up a week after the WS ended if they wanted to.
gmenfan
BREAKING NEWS: Bryce Harper just ate a ham and cheese sandwich while waiting for the Phillies offer.
skip 2
Dude get it right it was a Philly cheese steak.
adc6r
Not yet it isn’t
canocorn
Did Matt Cain cut it for him first?
Teator
30-40 million a year for one guy is insane. You’re one pitch, foul ball, bad slide, etc away from losing that 30-40 million at any point. You’re better off spending 20 on two players. You fill 2 slots and the risk for injury is cut in half. I’d rather have two guys hitting .290 with some power than 1 guy followed by a .230, because your team doesnt have any more money.
Willy Mays
You’re right Teator but its worse than that.They’re talking about that money for a guy who is bad defensively has only hit more than 34 hrs once and has hit less than 250 2 of the last 3 years.If Harpers worth 30-40 million what would Mays or Aaron have been worth.Maybe Tampa’s yearly payroll. lol
daved
MO-ron-ic Cards fans would take 2 Jon Jays and 2 Daniel Descalsos over 1 stud or 2 very good players.
Vizionaire
yup, 2 pitchers could do what nolan ryan could just as well!
ChiSoxCity
What is with people and player’s contracts? It’s not your money, why are you worried about how much professional athletes make? The market determines that, not fans. If you know how much CEOs of fortune 500 companies make (who do absolutely nothing), you’d probably freakout. Very few people on this planet can do what Machado and Harper can. In terms of scarcity of skill/talent, they worth every penny to the team that gets them.
Willy Mays
The implication in your comment is that we’re fine with what CEO’s make.I think that’s ridiculous also but since this is only an MLB trade rumor site people can only comment about the ridiculousness of players salaries. I believe that its kind of ridiculous that Harper is getting 30-40 million a year to play baseball yet there are many teachers struggling to survive. Obviously you have no problem with that. To each his own
bush1
The argument has to be relative to MLB though and not regular jobs. Of course teachers deserve more pay (my wife’s a teacher) and star athletes deserve much less, but that’s the world we live in. Now if you want to argue that it can jack up a teams payroll paying one guy over $30 million a year, then that is fair and probably very accurate. As a Cubs fan I’ll be the first to admit their inflated massive contracts have done a ton of damage to their chances for sure. There’s so much risk, but it does seem like most teams are finally realizing this by the size of Harper and Machado’s limited markets.
canocorn
I’d rather have this back-and-forth of opinions and insights than to have an info vacuum. This ain’t North Korea.
Teator
Ticket prices continue to rise to support these payrolls, correct? Merchandise costs continue to rise as well. So in fact it is my money… and yours.
My point isnt that they’re job will not generate more than me. My point is neither will generate twice what JD Martinez would. Neither will generate 4 times the revenue Lindor would. Neither is going to have 2x or 4x the impact of either of these players as far as team success. It’s better to have 2 JDs or Lindors or whomever than spend 25+ percent of your payroll on a guy who affects maybe 10% of the teams outcome. That’s why those contracts seldom work out.
bush1
North Korea what? I was just saying that comparing teacher salaries and Harper’s situation of course isn’t going to line up or seem fair in any universe. But it is what it is and how things are insanely skewed in this world. So the discussion of how it effects a teams payroll is what’s relevant.
bush1
Well Lindor would get much more if he was a FA. And teams can only sign the players that are available. JD didn’t get that much only because of his age. These guys are so much younger than he was last year. I’m not saying that’s right, but their age is main reason why they’re going to get so much. But overall I wouldn’t either Machado or Harper at $30 million over a long time either, regardless of their age but they’ll get paid big time.
ChiSoxCity
Teacher’s salaries are funded by municipal tax revenues. Funny how everyone agrees teachers are underpaid in this country, but no one wants to pay taxes to fund reasonable salary increases.
adc6r
Yea but if both 20MM players go down then your still out the 40MM and short twice as many players…
[sarcasm alert]
shane
Did Boras buy the Phillies?
Guest617
can’t imagine how much will be deferred – 2M for life? desperate gm’s do desperate things
muzzachunka
My post are jokes folks. I’m a huge White Sox. I was just mocking Nightingale especially bc he doesn’t think White Sox deserve either one. Getting Machado would push Moncada to 3rd, Timmy to 2nd (until Madrigal arrives) then moves on to CF. Robert is 3-5 years away from taking over CF. But I honestly dont believe Sox will arse over 300 mil.
ChiSoxCity
You had me up until that last sentence lol
Frisco500
If you FF 5 years and Robert is still trying to takeover CF, we’ll be talking bust
Fanof29teams
Just like Moncada lol
JayRyder
Haper 40 per. Kimbrel 18, Keuchel maybe 22 mil. Overall 80. Maybe less at 70-75 for next season and beyond with deferments. !!! I think it’s possible they can sign all Three… I say Go For It……….
iH8PaperStraws
Harper gets 40per if her signs a 4 year deal.
nicketz
i suspect Harper/Machado are going to have to ‘settle’ for ‘highest ever AAV”
not that i’d be surprised if it does happen, but i just don’t see them beating a $325M total guarantee because GMs don’t want to give 10 years to a guy anymore (and i can’t blame them)
bush1
Earth shattering stuff here. You mean the Phillies will make Harper an offer?! Shocking
Vizionaire
it is nothing more than jealousy. i make this little so why should they make that much playing a game? they are so much better than you playing professional games than you were playing a kids'(literally) game.
RedRooster
If they won’t explicitly say who the offer is from so that team can call b.s. if they didn’t make the offer, then the offer does not exist.
nowheretogobutup
Harper has had his best days behind him, he’s egotistical for sure and many of the players on the Nats are probably hoping he doesn’t come back
nowheretogobutup
Neither of these two guys are worth what they are asking however there will be GM’s out there who want to be the ones to brag to their fellow GM’s look what I got.. Doesn’t really matter what they do out there it just plain bragging rights.
Michael Herman
Oh my god. Let this end. The off-season is so painful.
bravesfan
No doubt
Frisco500
Yeahh… and I’m expected to take a dump soon. I can bet which will happen first
theroadto28
With the market so thin for these two it seems like the the second one to sign will get less money with the White Sox and Yankees being the only others that have been linked regularly to the both of them
canadianyankee
I’m still holding true to my original prediction that they both end up with NYY…it’s just a gut feeling
ChiSoxCity
Sure, the Yankees spend between $500M and $600M on two hitters they don’t need. Makes perfect sense.
Steve Shapiro
Phillies will not sign BOTH Harper and Machado, not because they can’t, but because they’re saving their pennies for Trout in two years.
James1955
Players don’t necessarily sign with the teams they grew up rooting for. Money and best chance at a ring are factors.
Steve Shapiro
The money shouldn’t be an object and by that point in time, the Phillies should certainly be in the mix for competing for a championship.
Cat Mando
Two reports now that the CWS offer was made 2 weeks ago and is still at 7/175. Phillies can easily top that and considering it has been reported they have made him 2 offers I am sure they have topped it. Makes me wonder if there is a mystery team.
Would much rather have a more consistent Manny than Harper. Use Franco, one OF and prospects if needed for a SP.
Steve Shapiro
My guess is that Harper doesn’t sign until a couple of days before Spring Training starts. The same may be true for Machado. They’re waiting to see who pops up at the last minute to blow them away with an offer they can’t refuse.
adc6r
If you are correct it is between the Nats and Phils now. The delay is Harper hoping the Nats come close enough for him to stay in DC where he knows the organization and loves the fans.
Yankeepatriot
The market for the big two is so slow that it’s possible that the Yankees can swoop in and get one of them on their terms
Rex Block
No, just no. Yankees are not playing in this sweepstakes.
xpensivewinos
Padres did it just a few years ago.
Remember how that worked out??????????
hozie007
….any minute now…..
adc6r
crystal Ball says Offer gets delivered late this afternoon or tonight. (of course that doesn’t necessarily mean we will hear about it then….)
Bryce Decides where he is going by this weekend
Either way Manny signs with Phillies
ericm25
So how soon is soon. next week, later this week, tomorrow, super sunday, etc.
Z-A 2
7/175?
dellapple
I really hope they do not come to philly.