Derek Jeter and Larry Walker have been inducted into the National Baseball Hall of Fame, the Baseball Writers Association of America announced Tuesday evening. Jeter, predictably, has been enshrined in his first year of eligibility. However, the longtime Yankees shortstop was not unanimously elected, as he was omitted from one lone ballot. Walker, meanwhile, has at last reached the 75 percent vote threshold in his 10th and final season of eligibility on the BBWAA ballot. He appeared on 76.6 percent of this year’s ballots.
Among notable misses, Curt Schilling saw another increase, appearing on 70 percent of this year’s ballots — up from 60.9 percent in last year’s balloting. Roger Clemens (61 percent), Barry Bonds (60.7 percent) and Omar Vizquel (52.6 percent) were the only others to secure a vote on even half of this year’s ballots. That marks a bit more than a one percent increase for both Clemens and Bonds but represents a notable jump up from 42.8 percent for Vizquel.
There was never a shred of doubt that Jeter, a former AL Rookie of the Year, five-time World Series champion, five-time Gold Glover, five-time Silver Slugger and 14-time All-Star would be enshrined in Cooperstown. The 45-year-old, now the CEO of the Miami Marlins, played in 20 Major League seasons and compiled a .310/.377/.440 batting line along the way.
In that time, Jeter racked up 3465 hits, scored 1923 runs, knocked in 1311 men, clubbed 260 home runs and swiped 358 bases. Those 3465 hits rank Jeter sixth in Major League history, trailing only Pete Rose, Ty Cobb, Hank Aaron, Stan Musial and Tris Speaker. Jeter also ranks 11th all-time in runs scored and 35th in doubles (544).
Of course, Jeter is known every bit as much for his postseason excellence as his regular-season dominance. He appeared in an incredible 158 postseason games and tallied 734 plate appearances in that time, hitting .308/.374/.465 with 20 home runs, 32 doubles and five triples. Jeter was named the MVP of the 2000 World Series after he went 9-for-22 with two homers, two doubles and a triple to lead the Yankees past the Mets. His 2001 postseason is arguably even more memorable, however, as it was in the ALDS against the Athletics that Jeter’s heady “flip play” was a pivotal moment, and his iconic walk-off home run against the D-backs in Game 4 of the World Series earned him the nickname “Mr. November.”
In all, Jeter’s brilliant regular-season career was valued by Baseball-Reference.com at 72.4 wins above replacement. FanGraphs pegged him at an even 73 WAR. Coupled with his legendary postseason track record, that made Jeter among the most obvious Hall of Famers in recent balloting history — although it’s nevertheless a shocking to see him omitted from a ballot. Once Jeter’s longtime teammate, Mariano Rivera, finally set the precedent for unanimous enshrinement, the expectation had been that others would follow. Perhaps that’ll still be the case, but Jeter was clearly a worthy recipient of such an honor and still fell shy by the slightest of margins.
Turning to Walker, the longtime Rockies and Expos star might’ve been voted in years ago were it not for many voters taking his stats with a grain of salt thanks to the hitter-friendly nature of Coors Field, where he played his home games from 1995-2004. It’s become increasingly difficult to vote against Walker, however. The Canadian-born superstar’s list of accolades certainly feel Cooperstown-worthy.
The National League MVP in 1997, Walker is a seven-time Gold Glover, three-time Silver Slugger and three-time batting champ. Many feel that he was a frequent All-Star snub — only appearing in the Midsummer Classic on five occasions — but Walker’s production arguably speaks even louder than his awards history. In 8030 plate appearances over the life of 17 MLB seasons, Walker hit .313/.400/.565 with 383 home runs, 1355 runs scored, 1311 runs batted in and 230 stolen bases.
Beyond his three batting titles, Walker twice led the Senior Circuit in on-base percentage, slugging percentage and OPS. That outstanding slash line translates to a tremendous 141 OPS+ and 140 wRC+, suggesting that the ultra-consistent Walker’s bat was about 40 percent better than that of a league-average hitter over the course of his career. Even at the end of his career, in his age-37 and age-38 seasons with the Cardinals, Walker’s .286/.387/.520 slash was nothing short of brilliant. Baseball-Reference’s version of WAR put Walker right alongside Jeter (72.7), while FanGraphs valued his career at 68.7 WAR.
Both Jeter and Walker are highly deserving of the honor they’ll receive this July when they take their place alongside the elite and entrench themselves in the annals of baseball’s history. Congratulations to the game’s two newest Hall of Famers.
Can we take away the one person’s vote who didn’t vote for Jeter?
-A Red Sox Fan
I’m glad he’s not unanimous. Heck, Ted Williams, Honus Wagner, Ken Griffey Jr and more didn’t get 100%
Your logic is preposterous
No it’s not
Its spot on.
I dont think PEDs are cheating, period. There is zero correlation that they make a player better and there’s dozens upon dozens of examples of players who were terrible before and after PED’s. Literally all these star players wanted was to stay healthy, it was what McGwire wanted after losing 2 seasons.
What the Astros did, was actual-cheating. Wanting to stay healthy to entertain us with their skill in this skill-game, is not cheating, period. ESPN lied to us all.
I’m inclined to agree
Whether you consider PEDs to be cheating or not, MLB does. That’s why they punish PED users. Therefore, technically using PEDs counts as cheating. Also, yes, PEDs did help extend Bonds’s career. By the time he broke Aaron’s record, he was at a good age for retiring
Then, you’re an idiot. Guys like Bonds, McGwire and Sosa saw much higher HR rates after they went on PEDs. If there wasn’t anything shady about it, then why hide it like Clemens did or lie about it like McGwire? What do you want next? Corked bats for everybody? Cheating is cheating. Period.
How about all the pictures that were using PED’s during that time?
StrikeFour
You don’t think PEDs are cheating?
PED- Performance Enhancing DRUGS……
Then the MLB went and juiced the baseball so everyone would be hitting homers like in the PED days. No reason those guys shouldn’t get in.
He’s wrong but the kicker is he’s got some kind of weird OCD that compels him to post his ignorant views on PED’s, over-and-over-and-over… There is plenty of evidence to show that PED use does more than keep players healthier, but dude can’t be bothered..
So what you’re saying is now it’s PEB’s? Performance Enhancing Baseballs?
This is a silly argument because the ball was juiced in 2019 for EVERYONE, not just certain individuals who were cheating by taking PEDs.
Also, I’m old enough to remember when they raised the Mound So High that No One in the AL could hit .300, and only a 2 or 3 guys in the NL barely hit .300. So, that was a year when they made every pitcher better.
Yes, you’re right. PEDs not only make you stronger & better able to recover from minor aches & pains, it also — as experts have noted — IMPROVES YOUR EYESIGHT.
Anyone who can’t see the benefit in that for a hitter, has something seriously wrong with their IQ.
Whoa whoa whoa! Yaz hit .301 that year. Come on.
My mistake. He was at .299 going into the last day or so, and there was an argument at the time that, if he finished at something like .299437, whether they should round it up to .300.
Is a vitamin a PED? An aspirin? Caffeine? They all help performance. An ice bath? Comfortable shoes? A healthy diet?
How about Tommy John Surgery? Lasic surgery? These all help performance. Why is HGH against the rules?
The difference is multifold. For starters, all of those other things are LEGAL drugs. Steroids are not legal because they can damage your body & wellbeing.
Ss for HG, I agree that the jury still seems to be out on whether that does anything special for an athlete, but maybe there’s a doctor out there that can tell us otherwise.
Roids make you stronger. Strength helps bat speed. Increased strength + increased bat speed = the ball traveling a longer distance. That’s common sense stuff.
When did Mcgwire lie about it? When he said he used Andro for libido? It does help with that, and the stuff was on display in his locker in 98. Not like he hid it. Probably did need some male enhancement do to the steroid use lol.
“I didnt come here to talk about the past” isn’t equivalent to “I didn’t take steroids” (Glares in Rafael Palmiero’s direction)
Comfortable shoes? Looks like some village is missing it’s idiot.
That may qualify as the funniest dig I’ve read in a while. Kudos, tanned!
Because those other things improve your health/functionality long term and PEDs harm you. If PEDs were legal all players would essentially have to take them to keep up (they would be too prevalent that instead of the PED giving you an edge, it would be necessary to not be behind). It’s unfair to force players to choose between their health and the game/their career.
So why was it ok for Sammy and Mark to save the game but it’s not ok for them to be in the hall of fame? I think saving the game over shadows all plus no matter what your on it’s still the same thing. you actually have to hit it.
I’d love to comment as a doctor because some of the posts on this website as of recently regarding steroids have been completely ridiculous. The person who keeps saying their great for injury prevention, some of them do but a study actually found increased risks of rupture tears when looking at weight lifters who used vs didn’t use. There are case reports of cardiac hypertrophy, liver failure, prostate cancer, and BPH associated with various of these substances. The neuropsychiatric and reproductive effects are fairly well documented. At the end of the day the drugs people are using are so varied and we don’t have great randomized control trials to know for sure the safety of a lot of these compounds. We can’t say to people, here take this drug that were pretty sure is dangerous long term so we can see what happens?
They made baseball more popular under false pretenses.. In the end, after all was known, the only people who benefited were MLB executives. The home run drama in ’98 between McGwire and Sosa was a sham.
Great points, sn0048.
I would only add that it’s a DISGRACE that they put Bud Selig into the HOF when he knew full well that something was amiss during the PEDs era.
Selig but did nothing about it until (if I remember correctly) there was talk about Congress investigating the possible use of steroids in baseball. (Correct me if I’m mistaken on that remembrance.)
I’m sure I’ll get lit up for this, but most were cheating in this era. It was rampant.
Maybe, maybe not, but McGwire and Sosa broke the records of players who played in much different eras.
It’s already been widely reported that, while steroids help you in the near term, they are extremely damaging to the body longterm.
I was fortunate enough to workout with a former weightlifter for the Russian Olympic team many years ago.
When the former Olympian talked about steroids, he said he refused to use them because he knew (from his time on the Russian team) the damage they can do to your body longterm.
The year before McGwire passed Maris’ record, the Olympian told me that Bonds, McGwire & Sosa were “definitely using steroids.”
I asked him how he knew & he said the neck muscles are a dead giveaway. You have very few muscles in your neck, he said, so anyone who has an unnaturally muscular neck is using steroids. (Check out the change in neck size of all the steroid users & you’ll see what he meant.)
You are making some pretty large generalizations.
1) If everyone takes PEDs, then nobody has an advantage and basically everyone was taking some form of PED.
2) Pitchers have become throwers and that started in the 90s when everyone started looking at the radar gun. Faster pitch equals farther hit.
3) You assume that the improvement wasn’t based on physical maturity or improved skill. Ruth didn’t hit 60 HR every year and McGwire hit 49 as a rookie when he was 6’5″ and 200 lbs. You think being 6’5″ and 260 lbs. wouldn’t add 10-15 HRs, How many did he add through skill, how about from expansion watering down the talent pool, how many came from guys trying to throw 100 and instead straightened their pitch out until it was impossible not to hit a homerun?
McGwire hit 500 foot homeruns all day long, Even if he gained 20% strength from PEDs, he still is hitting 400 ft to left which is still a homerun. Most importantly, larger muscle actually inhibits bat speed (i.e. power) due to lack of range of motion and flexibility.
Anyone that thinks PEDs were a slam dunk improvement didn’t understand that their true value was in recuperation and they still had to go to the gym 5-6 hours a day to add muscle. PEDs and sitting on the couch doesn’t do anything for an athlete. So anyone who thinks PEDs made players better in the 90s and 2000s probably hasn’t spend more than a January in a gym on a New Year’s resolution. Speak to someone who has been a gym rat for 25 years like me and you’ll know it wasn’t cutting corners.
For those who still protest:
Lasik eye surgery, Cheating? Unfair advantage?
Hyperbaric Chamber for injury recovery (think Terrell Owens/Eagles/Playoffs), Cheating? Unfair advantage?
More than 2 hours in the gym and 1 hour in the batting cage. Cheating? Unfair advantage?
Healthy eating habits. Cheating? Unfair advantage?
Eye black. Cheating? Unfair advantage?
Let’s assume that the league can change their view of what is cheating from year to year, as they did with the spitball. Let’s just ask from a morality and ethics perspective which should be the true determining factor used by the league office and its officials.
Do you think Carlton Fisk and Rickey Henderson had an unfair advantage over other players because they chose to stay in the weight room until 2am while other players went drinking and dining? What about Edgar Martinez doing eye exercises to improve his overall vision and pitch recognition. Does that constitute unfair advantage?
The point of the league rules is the creation of a just and fair environment for competition that at least appears to offer all teams and players the chance to win a championship. In other words, this is not meant to be an exhibition like the Globetrotters, where the game is all but assured to end in a win for Harlem. Does one person’s work ethic undermine that? Should others be kicked out of the league for failure to practice or workout, even if they are productive? If it seems difficult to draw a line, it should, because short of what the Astros did, everything else is a judgment call that depends on the ethics and morals of the person observing the infraction.
That’s your trapezoid muscles and they don’t increase in size because of steroids, they increase in size by doing specific workouts. I haven’t been working out regularly in a few years, not the way I used to and my neck is still 22 inches and I’m 5’6-5’7 and around 200 lbs. I can’t even find dress shirts off the rack that fit my neck, regardless of the brand or sizing. I can barely get the top button to close when buying shirts at DXL, almost all have to be custom fitted. So neck muscles are not conclusive. Hell, my neck is bigger than the neck on 70% of the big leaguers who are nearly a foot taller than me.
Your statement is unfair to all of the players who did NOT use PEDs.
It’s absurd to say “most were cheating” when you have zero evidence to support that statement. because there’s zero evidence that’s ever been published that 50.1% of players were using PEDs.
Don’t resort to spurious argument:
If you look at the bodies of guys like Griffey, Mo, Jeter, Alan Trammell, John Smoltz, etc. etc. it’s Obvious that those men did NOT use PEDs to cheat their way into the HOF.
You denigrate men of integrity — who did it the RIGHT WAY, when you make insupportable statement like “most” players cheated. NO they did NOT.
So does eye exercises and Lasik.
There’s a HUGE difference between a FATTY neck & a MUSCULAR neck.
The Olympian was right, as far as my research shows: you can only get a Huge MUSCULAR neck by taking steroids.
Fat doesn’t help you hit HRs, CincyMariner; muscles do.
The 49 home runs McGwire hit as a rookie in 1987 isn’t a good example because MANY players had a career year in ’87. The fairly common belief now is that the ball was juiced in ’87. Look at some of the names who had big years, what their career trajectory was going into ’87, and the numbers they put up over the remainder of their career..
Yes, BUT eye exercises & LASIK surgery are NOT ILLEGAL, so what’s your point.
This is getting Ludicrous!
Next thing you know someone is going to write in & say push ups are the same as taking steroids.
Bartolo Colon tried all of the above and then some, yet people still love that cheater because he looks like the slob from down the street trying to look like an “athlete”…
I agree that anyone who used PEDs is a cheater, Colon, included.
What separates people like Bonds, McGwire & Sosa, in my view, is that they made a mockery of 2 of baseballs Most Revered Records: the single season HR record & the all-time record.
In my view, Maris is still the single-season record holder at 61, and . . .
Hank Aaron is still the all-time HR King at 755, not that cheater Mr. Bail Bonds, as I like to jokingly call him.
You could argue the true record holder for single season home runs should still be The Sultan of Swat because Bonds cheated and Maris had more games to play in order to break that record.
The average Major League player has 20/12 eyesight and about 4% of them have 20/8 vision, which is the limit to human eyesight. And ones who have poorer vision often turn to LASIK surgery to improve their vision. Just do a Google search for average mlb player eyesight.
Cincy, simply put – you’re an idiot. I’m usually polite but to compare legal and illegal ways to improve is mind boggling. You mention lasik. What about eyeglasses? The fact that PED users are hiding what they’re doing which most of the time involves breaking U.S. laws apparently means nothing to you.
“Players who take PEDs are often able to hit more home runs or throw the ball more consistently, because the drugs help them work their fast-twitch muscle fibers better than they would normally be able to without drugs. Fast-twitch muscle fibers are what athletes use during brief, powerful movements – like hitting a baseball out of the park.”
Period!!!
@Mantle536
You are greatly misinformed. Orticosteroid triamcinolone is the steroid prescribed to patients who already have eye problems. It CAN improve their eye sight but only in the sense that it can restore lost vision due to some medical condition. It also isn’t the same kind of PEDs used by most athletes. In addition, the more it’s used the more likely the person might face side-effects which include……diminished eye-siight. A doctor will weigh the risk/reward of the use of it on a case by case situation. But it doesn’t work the way you think it does and like I said, can make your vision worse the longer it’s used.
Wade Boggs hit 24 homers in 87, and never hit more than 11 in any other season. The ball was juiced.
You are the one who is, apparently, greatly misinformed.
Bonds was reported by various sources, including the people who supplied him, of using numerous types of steroids, both via injection & topical steroids.
So:
a) You have no idea what steroids he was using
b) numerous medical-related websites say steroids do enhance eyesight, at least in the near term.
Here’s one quote from “health24”:
“Steroids improve eyesight
Injections with a steroid improved the eyesight of more than one-quarter of patients suffering from vision-robbing blood clots, according to researchers.”
Yes, and EVERY HITTER benefited from the juiced ball, NOT just guys who were using PEDs: that’s the difference you (and others) are ignoring with this silly argument.
MLB juiced the ball, NOT the hitters.
The same was true when MLB allowed to raise the mound into Mountain Tops in ’68-69 & pitchers like Gibson just destroyed virtually all hitters.
But that wasn’t cheating because MLB allowed it & ALL Pitchers benefited from that change, just as all hitters benefited from the juiced ball.
You can’t reasonably blame hitters for something MLB did, not them.
Bravo, eweybelongsinthehall.
It’s nice to see some real logic being employed in these arguments.
I’d recommend omitting the “idiot” reference, however.
As tempting as it is to use disparaging words like that sometimes, it’s best to avoid them, although (to be honest) I’ve “sinned” in that regard on more than a few occasions in political arguments (my bad).
Or he had a career year. Davey Johnson once hit 43 homers in a year and never topped 18 in any other year in his career. Was he juiced? Was the ball? Or did everything just happen to come together for him in that one season? The world may never know.
No, you couldn’t “reasonably” argue that because Maris hit 61 within the rules in place in 1961: that is, that they played 162 games.
Maris didn’t cheat to hit 61 HRs; he simply played in a 162-game season.
BTW, Ruth had 691 Plate Appearances when he hit 60, vs. 698 PAs for Maris in 61. So, Maris only had 7 more PAs than Ruth. The reason was simple: most pitchers preferred facing Maris, rather than Mantle, even though both were lethal HR hitters.
BTW #2, unlike with Ruth, most pitchers wouldn’t pitch to Maris once he got close to 60 because they didn’t want to be the guy who gave up # 60 or 61.
Ruth didn’t have to deal with that BS because No One had ever hit as many as he did.
BTW #3, Hank Greenberg should have passed Ruth in 1938, but MANY pitchers pitched around him near the end because they didn’t want a Jewish man to pass the Babe. (That’s one of many disgraceful episodes in baseball, and I’m not Jewish; I’m Italian.)
I believe MLB took into account (and they made statements to such) that the Astros’ cheating was systemic throughout the organization. Conversely, the players individually took the risks on the PEDs and even obvious PED / HGH users, like Barry Bonds, were never caught; even though his feet and head grew like he was a newborn, at the tail end of his career. Imho.
@Mantle536
When I’m constipated I stick a laxative in my mouth and swallow vs sticking it up my behind. Just because steroids can be introduced to the body via eye drops doesn’t mean that’s the area it’s improving. Secondly, what I said exactly was “Orticosteroid triamcinolone is the steroid prescribed to patients who already have eye problems. It CAN improve their eye sight but only in the sense that it can restore lost vision due to some medical condition.”
You used the quote “Injections with a steroid improved the eyesight of more than one-quarter of patients suffering from vision-robbing blood clots”,
Basiclly, the same thing I said with the key word being “patients suffering from vision-robbing blood clots”, For SOME it improves the vision of those who’ve LOST vision due to a DISEASE or INJURY causing decreased eye vision. Even for those who need it, the side effects can be further loss of vision with continued use.
The idea that a person with healthy vision or vision not impaired due to a “condition” can suddenly have increased vision is incorrect.
Fair enough, Mantle536. If I’m not mistaken, Jimmie Foxx almost broke it or at least tied it.
RE: “The idea that a person with healthy vision or vision not impaired due to a “condition” can suddenly have increased vision is incorrect.”
Show me a study that says that because I find it highly unlikely that any study ever risked injuring a health person’s eyes to determine what affect steroids would have on a person with good vision. That would seem like borderline malpractice in my (admittedly) amateur opinion.
Anabolic steroids are legal.
“3rd person”.
Thank you for your cordial response, goastros123. That’s refreshing in these “discussions.”
We had slightly different opinions on something, expressed those opinions (w/o insults) & found a common ground for agreement.
I wish more people on these sites took that approach & respected other people’s opinions, rather than denigrating them for having the “nerve” to have a different opinion.
Kudos to you, goastros123, for being a classy person.
You’re quite right and you’re welcome, Mantle536. I’m an Astros fan so some not every one would would be as respectful to me as you. Thank for you for that. Since you seem to be such an avid baseball fan, you should look up this book called Dingers!: A Short History of the Long Ball, written by Peater Keating. It’s a good book, at least in my opinion, about obviously the history of the home run. You might like it.
RE: “Anabolic steroids are legal.”
This is a disingenuous statement.
According to the US Dept. of Justice:
“The possession or sale of anabolic steroids without a valid prescription is ILLEGAL. Simple possession of illicitly obtained anabolic steroids carries a maximum penalty of ONE YEAR IN PRISON and a MINIMUM $1,000 FINE if this is an individual’s first drug offense.” (emphasis added)
If you have ever used any steroid based supplement or even high dose of pain killers you would know you have an edge over others. Recovery time, chronic pain , stiffness or everyday soreness is eliminated. Your body will feel amazing in the short term .It’s a huge advantage
You have my sympathy for the mixed emotions you must be dealing with as an Astros fan.
I’m a Yankees fan who admired A-Rod as a hitter & in terms of his exceptional knowledge of the game, so I was disappointed & disgusted when it came out that he used steroids.
To this day, I still shake my head & mutter, you would have been a HOFer even if you didn’t use that crap, A-Rod! What the hell is wrong with you?
So, I can honestly empathize with the anguish you must be feeling about the Astros revelations.
It isn’t your fault as a loyal fan that the Astros cheated, Only the cheaters are to be blamed.
You’re just a fan and, without people like you, the game wouldn’t even exist. (Ever watch “pro” Badminton? Me either. ;-).
Mantle536, after missing out on Clutch City via having no control over when I was born, I got to witness a team I like win it all, Turns out it cheating had something to do with it. I don’t like what they did but they’re still my team and I have no desire to abandon ship. I willingly watched them when they were losing 100 games so if I supported them then, I’m definitely going to support them now.
Steroids have been in the game a lot longer than most people think. Good search an interview with former Red Sox pitcher Bill Lee from all places High Times magazine June 1980. Make sure you read the whole story.
Little bit of a time line here.
1991 – steroids are banned substance in MLB.
2003 – MLB starts testing for steroids
Former NFL player Lyle Alzado admitted he started taking steroids in 1969. So you can bet football players were not the only athletes using them. See the Bill Lee story.
And while we are at it the spitball was banned in MLB 18 years before 3rd ballot Hall of Fame spitballer Gaylord Perry was born. Everyone knew he was throwing it. So was it a *wink* *wink* to him doing something illegal? Hell, he even wrote a book called Me and the Spitter.
Just some observations.
RE: “I have no desire to abandon ship. I willingly watched them when they were losing 100 games so if I supported them then, I’m definitely going to support them now.”
You have ever right to go on rooting for your team, and anyone who says otherwise is an ass.
My favorite Yankee of all-time is Mantle — if the “Mantle536” name wasn’t a big enough hint 😉 — and I was disappointed to learn that he was an alcoholic, an absentee father, and a serial adulterer. Yet, I still love the guy & the memories I have involving him, so I wouldn’t begrudge any fan for rooting for a team or player who did something wrong.
Moreover, I still like A-Rod (especially as an analyst) & I still think he was a great hitter, but I’ll never forgive him for using steroids. It was wrong & he knew it.
The only reason I would denigrate a fan is if the fan defended a team or player who cheated or disgraced the game.
A case in point are the Pete Rose fans who constantly look for any excuse to say “See, what so-in-so did was much worse than what Rose did.” BS! Rose disgraced the game, did something that was a federal crime, AND against rules of baseball. He’s a disgrace.
Human Growth Hormone has well noted effects on the body that are incomparable to baths, vitamins, etc. Your body stops producing most of it by 18-21 for a reason. Put it back in at 35 and you will have an unfair advantage. And it is also damaging in the amount Bonds used it because like his head and feet, it makes internal organs grow, which is very unhealthy.
andro doesn’t do much to help with gains, and a guy like mcgwire wasn’t using it in 98, he was smart enough to know if he put it out there, reporters would see it, assume that was it, and if pressed, he could say it was legal (legal in mlb at the time, sold over the counter).
and he was correct, steroid questions went away til 2004 (when bush decided all of a sudden that steroids are bad, even though if they really were, how come we don’t have hundreds, if not thousands of dead people due to them? funny, at the same time he was whining about them, florida, a state ran by his brother, was a haven for oxy and other pain pills, yet he did nothing at all about that).
That is completely ignorant and flat-out wrong. PEDs improve a person’s physical performance without a doubt. To say there is no evidence suggesting they help is simply stupid. They may not guarantee greatness, but to dismiss the effect they have on a person physically is evidence that you have little to no intelligence at all.
It would be no less stupid to say there is no evidence that exercising, strength conditioning, etc. benefits athletes’ performances, as well. The lack of common sense and general idiocy of some fans is amazing. PEDs benefit an athlete’s physical performance significantly. To say otherwise is asinine. I suppose those fools who think they have no effect assume athletes take them and risk suspension and other penalties just for the heck of it. Hey, there is zero benefit to taking these PEDS, but let’s just risk the penalties for no reason anyway. Brilliant!
Then why was McGwire crying on national television in front of Congress?
So many stupid people here. PEDs enhance performance, period. Anyone who thinks they don’t is a complete moron. It is cheating. Get a clue, you idiots.
Thanks Mantle. Apologies to Cincy for my getting carried away.
Mantle. Ego, arrogance and greed describe why most cheat.
Yet they’re still more deserving than some of the players that are actually in the Hall of Fame, not all of them, though.
There is also some evidence that steroids improve eyesight, which of course would make it easier for a hitter to make contact
Stick to the facts. The mound was always high before ’68, it was NOT raised then. Pitching became so dominant by ’68, that they lowered the mound for ’69. Mostly since fans like offense and they pay the bills.
Correlation is about the relationship in variables. It’s not about causation. PED’s cause an athlete to perform better, that is why they are called performance enhancing drugs. Causation is much more powerful than correlation. Whether they cause a .220 hitter to hit .222 or a .300 hitter to hit .350, they enhance performance. Just because they don’t cause improvement for every athlete doesn’t negate their effect, it merely implies that other variables are involved as well. To not understand that performance enhancement drugs lead to enhanced performance is like saying that there IS such a thing as cold. Cold is the absence of heat or in the case of supporting PED users to be in the Hall of Fame, this support is merely caused by the absence of intelligence.
Then why are PED’s illegal? All drugs have side effects. All drugs have risks. If PED’s help you, then why not legalize them?
I know the usual clowns are getting their chuckle on for my comment about comfortable shoes or Lasik… Well, back in the day, many players weren’t able to afford proper footwear. Lasik is fairly recent surgery to correct eyesight and many players didn’t have access to it. Certain players had an advantage due to these advances. Just like steroids. They are prescribed to help people recover from injury. If they help a player, then why isn’t it legal?
You are wrong.
Teams were allowed to raise the mound in ’68 to whatever height they liked, and Gibson — an unmistakably all-time great pitcher — benefited mightily from a raised mound.
Meh, the HOF had a strange opening decade or so, and on top of that is just a lot of phony nonsense to begin with. There’s way too many all-time leaders not in the HOF for it to be viewed as a legitimate honor anymore. Like, come on, Harold Baines gets in but Barry Bonds doesn’t? Ugh, what a pathetic organization.
Someone needs to start a rival HOF based only on if a player had over 50 WAR or not. I bet that list is a lot more legit than the list that’s in the actual HOF.
Barry Bonds technically cheated and you like him. Imagine that.
Bonds cheated, plain and simple, he doesn’t deserve it.
The Astros cheated and you like them. Imagine that
Astros fan talking about cheating, imagine that.
Believe it or not, I want Bonds in because cheaters are already in. You shouldn’t pick and choose which ones go in and which ones don’t. Strike Four here doesn’t like cheaters, hence why I said what I said.
Show me the failed test
I think his point is strike four four was quite vocal about how the Astros were terrible for what they did but bonds should be in the hall and strike four has no problem with his cheating
He admitted use of the “cream” and the “clear”, but said he didn’t know what they were. Hmmm.
No test needed.
lfcedredsox, that’s exactly my point. I don’t condone what the Astros did but cheating is cheating. At least be consistent.
Only Bonds should ever get in is if he buys a ticket.
Cheaters deserve no rewards as it only festers more cheating. No disrespect but Larry Walker? Harold Baines?No Schilling, Kent or Viszquel? What a joke both the new breed of balloters and the veterans committee.
I mean, I like what Bonds did for baseball, but if you think he wasn’t on something PED related, then please, buy my 10,000sf oceanfront home in Montana. Comes with its own iceberg.
Sorry goastros but one wrong + another wrong doesn’t make it right. The HOF should mean something and there is no place for any of the cheaters be it Bonds, Papi or whomever. maybe those borderline but great players would have gotten in if the voters weren’t allowed to consider cheaters who are frauds in my book.
The “cream” and the “clear”
I just want the HOF to be consistent. My main argument as to why it isn’t is Gaylord Perry was inducted despite being known for using spitballs (it was banned in 1920 after a player died because of being hit by one). Pud Galvin is a good example too.
Geez! What nonsense.
WAR is the most overrated, useless “stat” in the history of all sports.
Agreed and sadly so many voters are casting their ballots based on it.
Just making sure to create an opportunity for Bregman and Altuve to earn a spot down the road?
WAR shows past value in comparison to the rest of the league, how is that not relevant? Using it to determine a paycheck is definite nonsense, but to look at Ruth and say he was twice the player everyone else was every year is factual and accurate. He led the league in homeruns in 1927 with 60, Gehrig had 47, Lazzeri had 18, and nobody else had more than 17. WAR reflects how dominant he was as a hitter. Ruth had 20.3 WAR as a 21-year-old pitcher he put up an 8.8 WAR season, where he went 23-12 with a 1.75 ERA, 40 starts, 23 CG, 9 shutouts and 323 IP, bringing it to a 158 ERA+. The problem is people use WAR to be predictive and it’s meant to be descriptive.
I’m not sure of the wisdom of citing that they put cheaters in accidentally, so we should release the reigns from this point forward on cheaters (PEDs). We want to demotivate cheating. I think that the recognition some got in that may have cheated should force us to more closely scrutinize the aberrations, like Bonds, McGuire, Clemens, and so on.
Not sure people think about who is getting left out because of those guys’ career/season numbers, due to the PEDs. Their careers are longer, their numbers are artificially high and it does make a difference.
Dewey: “No disrespect, but [disrespectful comment]”
Cindy, so matt Moore was worth more to the tigers last year than miguel cabrera? Moore had a higher war in 2 games than cabrera in 130.
That’s the dumb argument that voters have used for decades to not vote for obviously deserving candidates.
We can’t change mistakes in the past. We can avoid making them in the future. Your argument boils down to “other people were stupid, so I should be too!” Don’t do that.
Great post and spot on.
If Jeter played his entire career for the Royals no one would be saying he should be unanimous. There would probably be debate if he should have been a first ballot HOFer.
Agreed and it applies to many aspects; lowering standards by comparing the just made its; voting for cheaters; not voting for a guy because someone better got less % of votes. It’s time for a new system. With analytics so prevalent, why not take the vote away and make it statistical, top 1% in 8 out of 12 catagories? Of course I’m kidding but really can it get much worse? A player got votes only because it was his last year of eligibility. Look at all prior years. Absolutely absurd.
With 3,000 hits? I disagree
@EndinStealth
Ummm…George Brett was deserving of being a 1st time ballot HOF. He’s a good comp and Jeter deserved the honor too. He had just under 3.500 hits (3.465)which ranks him 5th overall. He also has 5 WS rings. He also has a career .308/.374/.465 post-season slash in over 700 ABs.
@EndinStealth
“If Jeter played his entire career for the Royals no one would be saying he should be unanimous. There would probably be debate if he should have been a first ballot HOFer.”
Not with 3,465 Hits. The rest is gravy. 3,465 Hits. No debate. First ballot.
But Jeter did it in NY. Biggest market. Most pressure.
I think what many forget about leaving someone off the ballot in the Mays, Mantle epoch is that there were many other players writers wanted to keep on the ballot.
They had nowhere near the statistical analysis we have today with stat comparisons, advanced metrics, and more. They had AVG, HRs, RBIs,SO rate, BB rate. They also didn’t have the advantages of tape on demand, live viewing across the country and frequently used the eye test as a valid measure of performance.
I’m not taking up the pro-Jeter stance, I’m simply drawing the distinctions between these two very different, yet frequently compared time periods. That is no reason for the same process to continue out of some antiquated principles.
So he wouldn’t have had nearly 3500 hits if playing for KC? When was the last time a player not named Rose or Bonds with nearly 3500 hits was not a first ballot HOFer?
They all should have been. the fact that they weren’t should not have any impact on the candidacy of another player.
Exactly!
They should have.
Just because others were wronged doesn’t mean the wrong should be continued. All should have been unanimous, including jeter
In the history only Mo was voted unanimous. How are Griffey Jr. and R. Johnson not unanimous?
Albert Pujols better be Unanimous
So let’s repeat the mistakes made in the past. Woohoo! Brilliant!
i mean by that logic might as well just let anyone eligible in because Baines did. shouldn’t deny fixing your mistakes because of a reason like that.
Might have been the tax evasion thing that rubbed a voter the wrong way.
And you have no problem with all those studs not getting 100% including Babe Ruth? No excuse for this crap that some idiot voters refuse to vote for a HOF cant miss candidate just to deny him 100%
How do you leave him off your ballot? That makes absolutely no sense
Simple – it’s a salty Boston writer, no doubt
There’s still a lot of people who take unanimous votes seriously for some reason. Doesn’t mean its from Boston. If thats how some people think, Jeter should not be 100% when compared to others who werent. I dont agree with that but who cares, it literally doesnt matter at all.
I’d say it’s a Miami writer
It was probably someone who knew Jeter was an automatic HOFamer and wanted to vote for one of his favorites so he would get the 5%. This does not have to be something negative.
Sorry, that “argument is unadulterated bs. Every writer has 10 — TEN! — spots available. Do you really believe someone was worried about 10 Different guys falling off the ballot? Come on!
Someone tried passing off that Ridiculous Argument on the MLB Channel, but it’s obviously bs!
why was Rivera voted 100% if anything jeter shouldve been given 100% Mo blew a world series for crying out loud.
Mo still retired as the greatest to ever play his position. That said, Derek should have been unanimous and I’ll bet money the lone schmuck who didn’t vote for him is from Boston.
Stop the nonsense. No was great but he got beat too in the postseason. Many opportunities. His type of closer started only 15-18 years before with Eckersley. I’ve said it before if he and Hoffman changed uniforms, what would have happened? What made Mo special was he mastered the cutter. Hoffman’s curve was special too. To me Fingers in the 70s and Suter in the 80s were just as dominant as Mo. Sifferences are the additional playoff rounds, the lack of players leaving the Yankees and everyone running out of Oakland. Had the As stayed together, Fingers would be remembered as the best reliever, not just the best closer.
correction. my years were off. Eck became a great closer not even 10 years before Mo became one in 96.
Yeah, he’s (Mariano) the best: not good enough to be a starting pitcher so I’m going to be the GREATEST 1-2 inning pitcher of all time category.
Mo appeared in 141 post-season IP
Goose 31 IP- 2-1 2.87 ERA
Sutter 12 IP – 2-0 3.00 ERA
Eckersly 36 IP- 1-3 3.00 ERA
Fingers- 57 IP 4-4 2.35
MO pitched more innings than the 4 COMBINED (thus more opportunity to fail) yet had significantly greater success.
8-1, 0.70 ERA a whip of 0.75 and only 2 homers allowed. He’s a notch above them all and it’s not even close.
Great points, southbeachbully!
And that’s why they called him “The Great Mariano Rivera.”
I think it is a misnomer to classify Mo as simply a 1-2 inning pitcher. Although technically true when viewed from one perspective, they are very much some of the highest leverage innings a pitcher can throw. The rest of the argument was well stated by Southbeachbully so I’ll refrain. Mo made the best hitters in the game look silly when they knew what pitch was coming!
You left out one salient point, imo, Mick1956 (nice name, btw ;-):
You can’t blame Mo for how the game has changed. The Closer is now an integral part of the game; that’s not Mo’s fault; he just happened to be better at it that anyone prior to him or since then.
Also, to blame Mo for being a supposedly 1-2 inning pitcher is ludicrous:
If you’re going to do that, then you have to blame ever starter in baseball for NOT having at least 20 Complete Games ever season.
Sandy Koufax had 27 complete games in 1966, but . . .
The AL Cy Young winner in 2019 (Verlander) ONLY had 2 Complete Games and . . .
Cole, de Grom & Scherzer had ZERO Complete Games.
So, does that mean Verlander, Cole, de Grom & Scherzer aren’t Great Pitchers because they didn’t complete 20+ games?
Of course not! because the way in which the game is played has changed over time.
Mantle536 – All very legitimate points in addition to what has been stated. Good job, sir, good job.
Could be from Boston, but it also wouldn’t be surprising if it was a voter from Miami.
Jeter should not been 100% nor mo
If anything
The kid, the big unit, smoltz, galvin Maddox etc should have been
People in the past not being unanimous is not a reason for people today and in the future to not be unanimous. When are people going to stop making this laughable argument?
Nobody who understands baseball agrees with this.
Unless you did something to get yourself banned or you did something to make people not want to vote for you, if you belong the HOF then you will get into the HOF. That’s all that matters.
Why is it such a big deal if some sportswriter didn’t vote for him, for whatever reason? He got in, didn’t he? That should be the main thing.
@NorahW
Easy answer. If no one has done it before and it happens then that’s “special”. Not sure if the players really care or not.
Considering how many years NY writers refused to vote for players like Ken Griffey Jr. just to make sure they weren’t unanimous elections I’m glad that distinction was denied their “Saint Jeter” too.
if I had a vote I would not have voted for Jeter
3456 hits. Thank the lord your not in charge. And that’s why you are not in charge.
Among Jeter’s contemporaries I’d argue that Craig Biggio, Chipper Jones and Cal Ripken Jr. had BETTER “OVERALL ” careers than Derek. Yes, DJ had more World Series titles, but that is a team achievement. All 3 of the guys I mentioned were multi position players. You have the IRON MAN (SS/3B), 1 of the VERY BEST switch hitter’s of ALL TIME (SS/OF/3B) AND an All Star at 3 DIFFERENT positions (C/2B/OF). Of the 3 ONLY Chipper missed the 3,000 hit club.
@Prospecnvstr I agree Ripken is better overall. Jeter was great offensively, but subpar defensively. He is not comparable to Ripken when factoring in defense. His career better resembles Alan Trammel in terms of overall WAR. For whatever reason, it took Trammel forever to get in to the HOF.
Jeter is not the best shortstop in the HOF, but with his resume, he is a first ballot HOFer.
3456 hits. Thank the lord your not in charge. And that’s why you are not in charge.
Glad you don’t have a vote.
Neither would’ve Garrison Lassiter if he had a vote lmao.
He’s a HOFer of course, but it’s not a huge travesty he didn’t get in unanimously. I’d have voted for him, but this voter could easily argue that Jeter never won an MVP; could argue he wasn’t even the best SS on his team; or had he been drafted by Pittsburgh instead of NY, he’s better than Biggio (a 3rd balloter), but not remarkably so.
Apparently, you think you’re more knowledgeable than Tom Verducci, who said just yesterday that Jeter was THE BEST SHORTSTOP in MLB history.
But you have him being barely Better Biggio: You’re jealousy of the Yankees as a Mets’ fan is transparent.
reading is hard
“the stupidity level here is high”, says the guy who can’t spell Ripken.
Lol, can’t make this stuff up.
Verducci is full of crap.
Drop the pitchforks and common sense everyone – Tom Verducci said Jeter is the best ever. All of your arguments are null and void now.
Best SS in MLB History?!! He wasn’t even the best SS on his team after they acquired A-Rod. He was just too much about himself to be the one to change positions for the betterment of the team.
In fairness to TV, he indicated it was impossible to compare Jeter to Wagner but I too would pick Ripken. One knock on Jeter is the argument he played short his full career. It was his ego that forced that. When ARod joined the team, there was no doubt he was the better shortstop but he had to agree to change positions before the team would make the trade.
kingken67 made a similar comment about Jeter not even being the best SS on his team, referring to A-Rod.
There’s one Huge Problem with his (and your) statements: A-Rod got so Big Physically because of his steroids use that he could NOT possibly play SS longterm.
He bulked up so much that his range at SS would have been negligible. So, Jeter was the only one of the 2 who could play SS for 20 years.
You claim A-Rod couldn’t maintain his range at SS? His last few years Jeter was a veritable statue there. He could handle balls hit at him but anything more than 4 feet either direction wound up a hit. The only excretion was balls hit to his right, because A-Rod turned himself into a very good third baseman and his range there could mitigate some of Jeter’s lack of range.
Mantle536: Don’t forget about A-Rod’s bad hips which progressed so far he was required to get a double-hip-replacement. That is going to have very serious consequences on one’s capability to move throughout the years.
What about when the trade was made? No doubt that ARod was the better SS then and at the time, there was no talk about his hips or size. It was Jeter’s refusal to move.
A-Rod’s hip issues didn’t come up until YEARS after he was traded to NY. At the time he joined the team he was clearly the better SS than Jeter, and if decisions were made for what was best for the team he would have continued to play that position and Jeter would have moved. But as much as NY fans like to claim Jeter was all about the team, he was more about himself, which is why he refused to even consider moving to a new position. Any review of objective fielding stats from A-Rod’s last 2 years in Texas vs. those same years for Jeter in NY show that A-Rod was the far superior defensive player. And the few years after he came to NY Jeter regressed to become even worse.
I agree wholeheartedly! How could anyone fill outs many as 10 spots without including Jeter?
The argument that Griffey, Williams, Mantle & Mays didn’t get 100% of the vote, so Jeter shouldn’t have either is spurious & asinine. All of those men — and many others — should have gone in unanimously.
It was asinine for the writers to purposeless leave guys off for decades so that no one went in with 100%. Now that that moronic “rule” was broken last year, Jeter should have gone in with 100% of the vote.
Whoever didn’t vote for Jeter should have their voting rights rescinded and, btw, I said exactly the same thing when Griffey didn’t get 100%: only an idiot would say that guys like Griffey & Jeter didn’t deserve to go in unanimously.
Why does it matter – he’s in. Who cares that 1 rogue writer didn’t vote for him….
I would love to shake the hand of whoever left their Jetes spot blank. And, I don’t care about the suck-up of “even a Sox fan” wishes he’d been unanimous.
Contra our OP here, Steve Adams, Jeter’s WAR was no higher than Booger Larry Walker, who took a full 10 years to get in, too.
Plus, as a Cards fan, the Wiz had a higher career WAR than Jetes.
I would wageger that you couldn’t find a single baseball analyst who would say that Ozzie was better, all around, than Jeter. Ozzie was great, but he wasn’t as great an offensive force as Jeter.
Earlier, you wrote that Ripkin was WAY ahead of him (Jeter).
Offensively, Jeter was better &he was better, imo, going to his right than Ripken, but Ripken was better going to his left.
BUT, the big difference between the 2 (again, imo) was that Jeter spelt team “Yankees,” while Ripken spelt team without the “t” & the “a”: i.e. “ME”.
Ripken cared more about keeping his consecutive games started record in tact than whether he was hurting his team by not resting.
Jeter understood that he was more valuable to his team if he rested at least 5 games a year; Ripken put the streak ahead of what was best for his team.
Ripen hit about .270 during his streak & his tam only one a WS in the first 162 game season of his career.
Gehrig hit .340 during his streak, won Multiple WS titles and, most importantly, HE took himself out of the lineup when he knew he was hurting his team, something Ripken Refused to do because he put his team second to his streak.
Via fangraph Jeter had 73 WAR and Ozzie a 67 WAR
Via basref Ozzie had a 76 to Jeter’s 72
Walker and Jeter are seperated by a fraction of a percentage
Jeter’s home/road split are pretty even. Walker’s? a 200 point OPS difference,
Jeter > Walker
I may not have voted for him. He was a shoe in so I may have used his vote to include someone else. I would have almost certainly used all 10 votes, as I would have done for a couple years in a row now.
The guy was never even the MVP in the AL and people are mad that one guy didn’t vote for him. He’s still a HOFer. Get over it.
~40% of people allegedly so knowledgable about baseball that they’re trusted with a vote on this left the best hitter and pitcher of Derek Jeter’s lifetime off their ballot. If you’re going to be mad about something this frivolous and inconsequential, be mad about that.
If you’re referring to Bonds & Clemens, they were left off the ballots for Cheating, NOT because the voters aren’t well informed.
The voters were informed about steroid use &, on that basis, they chose to leave them off their ballots.
That doesn’t make those voters ignorant or uniformed.
Personally, I would agree to having Bonds, A-Rod & Clemens in the HOF IF (and only IF) they 1) admitted to their steroid use and 2) their inflated stats were decreased by 25% to adjust for their cheating.
For example, if Bonds’ 73 HR season was adjusted & penalized for steroid use by 25%, his HR total would be reduced to 54 (or 55, if you round up). That’s far more realistic than his BS total of 73 . . .
And it would have the added benefit of making it possible that (some day) someone might Honestly surpass Maris’ 61 HR record.
If the 25% adjustment was used, Hank Aaron would once again (RIGHTLY) be the all-time HR King.
That’s the dumbest thing I have ever read. Let’s just rewrite history because it isn’t the way you want it. And what made you choose the arbitrary 25 percent? It that the recommended addition to the stats that the Clear provides? And which 25% do you take away? Will that change the score in some of the games played? Are we giving the 2002 NL pennant to someone else because of it? Additionally, what percentage of Hank Aaron’s home runs do we take away because he was suspected to be on greenies?
It happened, it’s not going away, get used to it.
Lol typical Yankee fan, blame Boston. Maybe it was an error, but 1st ballot is great with 99.99%
What Yankees fan blamed the Red Sox. It certainly wasn’t in any of my posts.
Clemens was both a Yankee & a Red Sox, so there was no slight there toward Boston.
After you find the guy who didn’t vote for Jr and take his away. NY fans will probably not agree but Jr was a better player. Ok Yankee ganas tell me how crazy. I am.
You’re not crazy, you’re just pathetically paranoid.
I know of NO Yankees fan who ever denigrated Jr. He was the best all-around CF I ever saw, and I’m 64 years old.
Stop being so pathetically envious of the Yankees history of championship teams & looking for any excuse (real & unreal, in this case) to complain about the Yankees or their fans.
Envious displaces like yours only make Yankee fans laugh at your jealousy.
Who was the fool that didn’t vote for Jeter?
Me.
Schilling was robbed again.
Wearing a shirt that has a noose, journalist and some assembly required is not the best way to get those journalists to vote for you. Right or wrong, people take those things personally.
Schilling will get in. I think the writers understand that leaving him out for being a troglodyte is silly, they’re just letting him twist in the wind.
I literally laughed out loud when I read “troglodyte”.
I literally laughed out loud when I read “troglodyte”.
How many racists do want in the hall? Just because there are a few we sure as hell don’t need another one.
It’s the HOF. It’s based on the players performance throughout his career. Not Hall of Moral Values or Hall of Personal Beliefs.
If schilling wants to be racist he’s allowed to be racist all he wants. Whether you agree or not doesn’t matter. His beliefs isn’t what’s being voted on it’s his production as a player.
Anything he’s said post career should have 0 hearing on people judging his career as a HOF player. Just like if Pete Rose waited til he retired nobody would care if he bet on every baseball game ever in his retirement
AAJD maybe he shouldn’t PO the very people he’s counting on to elect him.
Rogers Hornsby is in after all and he was said to be a world class jerk. Ty Cobb was said to be racist and he’s in, although it was also said he wasn’t racist.
Maybe the people who are in charge of electing players should be objective and put their personal feelings aside.
Goastros.. Read Ty Cobb Terrible Beauty.
bluejays.. yeah because that’s what people do.
There is a character clause for the HoF, read up.
Cobb wasn’t prejudiced he hated everybody. lol
You understand what “should” means, right? It’s not as if they’re physically incapable of properly acknowledging that he should be in based on his career performance.
Objectivity is a complete myth. No one is objective about anything. Human beings have biases. We are designed that way. Unless you want to change the election to a computer program (which would be asinine), then you are just going to have to live with the bias of human beings.
Of course I have often noticed that when people are asking for objectivity, they don’t really want objectivity, they actually just want the bias to lean the same way as them.
you dont get elected to the hall for being a good person. you get elected for being a good player, which he is.
It’s the hall of fame, not the hall of personalities. I would never want any interaction with Schilling but his personal agenda has nothing to do with his skill.
What did Schilling say that was racist ?
You’re probably going to get nothing but C-R-I-C-K-E-t-S with that question. It’s a lot easier to parrot narratives than actually arrive at a conclusion based on facts instead of ignorance. The vast majority who use the term “racist” don’t have a clue as to what it entails.
I’m not sure he said anything legitimately racist. He has definitely expressed views that align themselves with racist people. He also accused Adam Jones of lying about racist treatment he received at Fenway during games.
I will always be thankful for Game 6, and I bought Kingdoms of Amalur. I know he has the right to his opinions, I guess I just wish they were rooted in reality.
He robbed himself by being a terrible human being and a drain on society.
It’s a liberal conspiracy. Surprised Schilling hasn’t gone on Alex Jones to say that.
Like he robbed the government of stimulus money? Or the fake kind of robbed where you’re denied some meaningless professional distinction because you’re constantly a bigot and a jerk in public
Not unanimous. Oh well. He’s in and that’s all that matters. Very glad Larry is.
Thankfully Walker got in. It’s a shame that it was still so close there.
Probably the same guy who didn’t vote Griffey in
Schilling should’ve made it but other than that it’s ok
Amen
He was never that good
No Schilling? Garbage. As is Jeter not being unanimous. What a joke.
I can’t say I’m sorry Schilling didn’t make it, but I don’t know how you don’t vote for him. As for Jeter, how is he not unanimous?
There should be dozens of unanimous Hall of Famers. So Jeter is in good company.
Is your view political? If so, this is about baseball
he’s actually being quite equitable
[fart sound effect]
So happy for Larry Walker. One of the most complete ballplayers I have ever seen. Just excelled in all areas.
Hard for anyone to be a complete player when they miss a month of games every year.
He couldn’t stay on the field and was good, not great, outside of Coors. Those are big holes in his game.
Coors Field is an MLB-caliber ballpark, just like all the others. It can’t be a disqualifying factor in the voting process unless nuances in ballpark construction is punished the same way for every ballpark.
The big factor against Water is his inability to stay on the field. No way his vote total should have so dramatically increased in one year.
Mantle had a problem staying “on the field”.
Did Walker hit 500 hrs when 500 meant something?
Walker’s road OPS was higher than Ken Griffey Jr, Jim Rice, Orlando Cepeda Reggie Jackson, George Brett, Andre Dawson, Billy Williams, and other MLB Hall of Famers. road OPS.
Obviously that’s from the years of him playing at Coors as an away player.
Sarcasm, folks.
The game has changed. The guys mentioned drove in runs regardless if it meant giving themselves up as an out. Also what is the sample size? He never played 150 games in a season. Did he?
140 OPS+ for his career seems pretty stellar. Isn’t OPS+ park independent?
Larry could’ve DH’ed in the American League and played for years like Baines but he was far too athletic, fast and had a rifle arm so a few games a year for “load management” is all right.
If I were a betting man, I’d be in Chapter 11 heaven based on Jeter’s non unanimous selection
I’ll bet my life that the one tool who didn’t vote for Derek is a Boston writer. I’ll go even further by saying he or she is from the Boston Globe.
Billy Wagner needs to be in.
facts
Whoever didnt vote for Jeter should be impeached.
There working on it!
Maybe they were big fans of defense and power hitting?
Thankfully Schilling didn’t make it.
He will soon and he should.
Definitely not deserving. Average pitcher at best.
average? el oh el
Career:
fWAR: 79.8
W-L: 216-146
INN: 3261.1
K: 3116
ERA: 3.46
FIP: 3.23
AND he walked less than 2 batters per 9…
3x WS champion and WS MVP in 2001 and that’s where it really counts
lol that’s an ace or at a minimum, a really really good number 1
(I’m not even a big Schilling fan but he deserves it)
Learn how to read a stat line before commenting.
Arguably the greatest post season pitcher of all time. Him and madbum a close 2nd.
He will get in should be in and you can deal with it in therapy if you need to.
If you started watching baseball in 2000…
Average? Possibly the best playoff pitcher ever. He was a main factor on three different championship clubs.
Why? Politics and baseball are separate entities. Get a life
But, but….. he’s a RACIST! It must be true – I read it on the internet!
Why?
Larry Walker is the best Canadian in the half.
The one child Jeter diddled abstained.
Seriously, these a-holes that try to make a name for themselves by being ‘the one’ is insane.
Great to see such a talented, well deserving, all around baseball player get in the Hall. Congrats to Jeter, too.
Probably the same moron who didn’t vote for Griffey!
You mean 1 of 3 morons that didn’t vote for Griffey?
So many better players than Jeter have not been unanimous choices for the Hall of Fame.
Bonds and Clemens deserve to be in the HOF. I’m hoping they are both elected next year. It would be intersting to see them enshrined together,and what they would say in their speeches. Fred McGriff, Gary Sheffield and Manny Ramirez deserve to be in as well, but never will be.
Happy for Larry Walker,and I took a piss next to Derek Jeter one time at a club in inner harbor, Baltimore. I was drunk and I look next to me and the most famous baseball player in MLB at the time was in the next urinal lol. Well deserved.
Why do thieves deserved to be enshrined in a Hall of Fame?
Bonds and Clemens stole for teams, fans, owners and players. They don’t “deserve” to be honored.
They’re still two of the greatest examples baseball has ever had. They should get in and baseball should move on from the steroid era. Even if you want to look at an entire era as tainted, it’s still part of baseball history. We should honor that history.
Exactly.
Right after we give Al Capone a Congressional Medal of Honor, we should put Bonds and Clemens in the HOF.
Two of the greatest examples of cheating baseball has ever had.
the only situation in which id accept those two in would be one that doesnt lead to the other users like Manny and Sosa getting in. the only reason why Clemens and Bonds have a case os they were so good that even if they were juiced when they played, they were probably good enough to be hall of famers without PEDs. still, that’s a risky bet and a slippery slope, and cheaters are cheaters. i wouldnt vote for them.
No they do not.
Please don’t put those egomaniac, self centered cheaters in the same discussion as crimedog who truly is deserving
Congrats to both Jeter and Walker.
Larry Walker got denied the Hall for years for an absolutely bogus reason. I’m glad that he didn’t have to wait for the Veterans Committee to do right by him.
If he didn’t get in, you may as well have just contracted the Rockies. Gonna take away their first World Series because it came at altitude?
What’s the bogus reason?
The fact he couldn’t stay on the field and wasn’t a great hitter outside of Coors sounds like two very good reasons.
His road OPS was .50 points higher than Jeters total ops, while playing better defense. Stop making stuff up. He was a great player and if you’re going to punish his hitting stats because of altitude, you can not in the same breath punish his durability in it. May as well just contract the Rockies if that’s how people actually think.
JD. What made Jeter special like him or not was he did it on a repeat winning club under big city pressure and did the little things that helped produce championships. My biggest gripes were he was overrated as a shortstop and I couldn’t stand the time he stole first base when the ball didn’t hit him. I argued then that was not gamesmanship because he fooled the umpire not the opposition.
Some Boston writer wanted to be important hahahahaha
Who the F**** didn’t vote for Derek Jeter? As a long time Braves fan I find this appalling. This guy was a true class act and a spectacle to watch.
I told some friends earlier that if I had a vote, I would have left Jeter off this year…NOT because he’s not a slam-dunk HoFer, but because the 10 vote limit still exists for some idiotic reason and I would rather use the vote on someone who needs the help rather than the absolutely sure-fire Jeter.
Your comment makes sense. Seems arbitrary for there to be a limit of 10 each year and there are many writers out there who don’t even know who half of these guys are or what they did as a player.
So, IMO if you’re a HOFer you don’t need help getting in.
@BKS1110
So who are the 10 HOF worthy players that got the votes instead of Jeter? Walker and who are the other 9 still on the ballot?
But I don’t care, He got in.
Well deserved. Both were tremendous players. It’s kind of fun to think about how far the Expos and Larry Walker would’ve gone in 1994 had the strike not happen.
Larry Walker long over due. Watching him it was clear he was a cut above and an obvious HOF’er a bonified stud. Congrats
How many more years are bonds and Clemens on the ballot before the are removed?
Hopefully none
Two ,and I hope they give the writers the finger and refuse to accept the award when they finally get in.. Schilling at 9 percentage points better than Clemens, I almost peed myself laughing at the incompetence of these clowns who vote..
Larry Walker. ABOUT FREAKING TIME!!
When I lived in Boston, everyone there called him f$#$@#n’ Jettah. I hope he goes into the Hall of Fame under that name.
Derek Jeter: Hall of Fame hitter, Hall of Shame fielder. I am thankful that one person didn’t buy into the hype. And no, I am not a Red Sox fan.
What hype? He was a class act, productive championship player. You can dislike him personally but he helped make baseball a better game for future generations.
Only fair to add that Jeter’s persona is partially as a result of media hype.. And I also agree his fielding wasn’t very good, and at a very important position, too. But he’s certainly worthy of the Hall Of Fame.
He was a great player but this Jeter love fest is way to much. Walker had a better career War and it took him ten years.
Shoot I was know of the people who said Mariano Rivera shouldn’t be unanimous. He was the greatest relief pitcher of all time. But he was still a relief pitcher.
SS vs. OF.
Larry Walker playing at Coors during the steroid era is enough for the Hall?
exactly…i’m sho0cked he got in. HOF is very watered down now.
NOW? It was “watered down” the day Rizzuto was voted in.
Holy Cow, Murcer.
Lysander, I must vehemently disagree. Scooter was definitely a HOF announcer.
It wouldn’t make sense to have Jim Rice or Harold Baines in the Hall of Fame and not Larry Walker.
Barry Bonds was an amazing player, easily most productive player during my time! He obviously played great during his early years while NOT on PEDs and does anyone think he was only like 1 of 5 players on PEDs towards end of his career??? You’re a complete fool if you think so. Bottom line is for probably a 10-12 year stretch there were dozens if not hundreds of MLB players on PEDs.
I’ll wait for the people to say, “oh yeah, what proof do you have”. It’s called owners & players wanted to make money & bring fans back to game in the mid 90s and beyond. Also, I have eyeballs and practically half the pitchers & hitters in Mlb looked like middle line backers- Caminiti, Sosa, McGwire, A Rod, Clemens, Petite, etc.
Then why did he do PEDs if he was so great? Stupid decision and now he’s not in.
that’s like assuming rich people dont want to get richer.
He wanted an edge, which is the same reason why the other guys that used PEDs used them.
Glas to see Jeter didn’t get 100%. Jeter didn’t deserve 100% votes. Neither did rivera. If griffey didn’t get it, Jeter and a freakin closer shouldn’t be close to 100% of the votes.
I don’t think it’s meant to work as a percentage system, like a test. It’s dishonest to not include a HOFer on your ballot because you want to avoid a specific number. That said, the writer may have had a legitimate reason for leaving him off, although I cannot think of one. Either way, I don’t care, he’s in and he should be.
Atta boy Larry!!!!
Until Pete rose gets in its as useless to me as the wwe hall of fame.
I see they’re as determined as ever to drag the baseball hall of fame down to the same level of talent as the football hall of fame. Walker is not as undeserving as Harold freakin Baines, but dang, the only hall of fame caliber seasons that Walker had were with the Rockies and the juiced ball of early Coors Field. The numbers he put up in a couple of those seasons make the best offensive seasons from seasons players had in 2019 look downright puny. Just shows you how much of a joke his stats really are. Congrats to Jeter though, well-deserved,
what idiot didn’t vote for Jeter? they should never be able to vote again, no reasonable person could argue that vote, and this from a huge red Sox fan
Barry Bonds should be in the hall of fame no question. Yea he took roids but that alone didn’t make him one of the best and most feared hitters in the history of the sport. The HOF voters have never played the sport professionally so they have zero idea how difficult it is to hit a baseball in the mlb. There is nobody in the history of the sport that has hit more homeruns, how tf is that not in the hall. It’s a joke when you have guys from the deadball era who bragged about cheating (spitballs, scuffball, pine tar) still in the hall.
The problem with Bonds is that everyone saw the good early years, and his potential for the HOF. However, they argue against putting him there because of cheating and lying within the game itself. Also, nobody knows where the great player ended and the steroids / HGH took over. Too muddy to discern the difference. You can take that thought to the next level and say if Don Mattingly wasn’t injured….
Anyway, he also broke records that he would not have broken if not for the steroids, building his resume and mocking the game itself. He chose his pathing knowing the consequences and he shouldn’t get it all.
If you want to split the baby, take only the years he was definitely not using and see if he makes it then. He won’t.
Schilling not in is ridiculous. Steroids are one thing but being of a different political viewpoint??
I’d vote for him but the political viewpoint of murdering journalists isn’t exactly political.
That has nothing to do with electing him
You actually believe Schilling advocated for the murdering of journalists?
Yes, he does. Any person with some intelligence knows Schilling did not advocate murdering journalists. Some people can’t keep up.
You’re an idiot.
We all just pointed that out for you JD. I thought you frowned on name calling on the boards? Hypocrite.
Please let it be Greg Cote!
Cincinnati could have picked Jeter but deferred in order to pick Chad Mattola who amassed 25 career hits
Most overrated player in modern history. He wasn’t even one of the top 3 players for a single season.
Horn’d up New Yorkers getting another very good player into the hall of greats.
3,465 Hits says otherwise.
Find that person. Take their vote away. It’s ridiculous.
Question for everyone, obviously there’s many greats in the HoF but who are the say, the top 5 ever to be inducted?
Of those 5 who are unanimous? Yes the voting has changed over the years but I believe Jeter should not be unanimous even if there are greats who I believe much better than him weren’t unanimous. I am grateful he is not unanimous, as talented as he is he doesn’t deserve to be there with Mo.
Schilling continues to get snubbed over reasons not even remotely related to baseball.
Amen Bro.
I think it has more to do with the fact that he can’t keep his mouth shut, I’m a Boston fan and appreciate what he did for the Red Sox, but he is a jerk, I believe he will get in but I think that the BBWA will let him sweat it out to the last year of his eligibility
He’s a “jerk” because you have political disagreements? Really?
If Griffey can narrowly miss a unanimous voting, Jeter can probably handle it too. Hope he goes in with his Marlins hat on!
Fred McGriff, Steve Garvey, Gary Sheffield, Carlos Delgado, Dave Parker, and a bunch of others have to be looking at Harold Baines and Larry Walker making the Hall of Fame and ask themselves “what the f………..”
McGriff yes.
Dave Parker? He was a good player, but a career WAR of 40, Garvey is at 38 , Delgado 44, walker is at 72. Stats aside did ever see any of these guys play? These players aren’t in the same league not a great take
Put McGriff in Colorado and he routinely hits 40-45 bombs per year.
Put Sheffield in Colorado and he routinely hits 45-50 bombs per year.
Put Delgado in Colorado and he routinely hits 50+ with a 60 burger for a season. Also not entirely sure Walker was clean IMO.
Larry Walker was one of the greatest all-around players the game has ever seen. , He could do it all to the highest degree. He epitomised the overused phrase”5 tool player” Larry had to wait this long because of where he spent the biggest part of his career, a place where hitters are unfairly stigmatised.
i think McGriff should be in, but i dont think even he stacks up to Walker here, much less the rest of your list. Baines? maybe. Walker? heck no.
I don’t care what anyone says, Jeter is the most overrated player in the history of MLB. No way in he** he should be unanimous
Ozzie Smith has something to say about that
3465
@WillieMaysHayes24
3rd highest WAR among all SS in the last 100 years says “Hi”.
6th in hits among all players and 1st among SS says “whatchu talkin bout Willis”?
Rose, Cobb, Musial, Aaron and Speaker are the ONLY players with more hits than Jeter. That’s meaningful. Just because he gets talked about a lot doesn’t mean he’s “overrated”. No one in NY, aside from that reporter honestly think he was a better SS than Ripken and most will say Jeter’s bat puts him ahead of Smith by a small margin. But still an all-time great. Who cares if 1 guy didn’t vote for him. It’s been the same for some all-time greats too.
Fun fact: no one should ever be unanimous. Rivera should never have been, but in doing so, he stole votes away from Bonds, Clemens et al. guys who should be in too. Closers aren’t THAT valuable, you guys. Bonds was miles and miles a more important player to Rivera. He won 7 MVPs. You can’t compare the stratosphere, just because Mo was lucky enough to be on the Yankees and not the Mariners, there goes most of his big personal moments – and he blew a WS too! That alone should have knocked him back down to 90% where he belonged.
The only reason why we got a unanimous player, is because a lot of voters are massive losers who hate the game. Bonds, Clemens, Jeter, Walker, Schilling, Rolen, Manny, A Jones, Helton, Sheffield, Abreu, Pettitte and Sosa all should have gone in this year.
I hear they gonna re-retire his #2 but now it’s gonna be .2? Any truth to that?
Dave Williams was the writer that didn’t vote for Jeter pbs.twimg.com/media/EO1_AKFW4AMrV41?format=jpg…
Good
Whitesoxdave from Barstool Sports @barstoolWSD
What the hell is that absurdity of a ballot? Did he just throw darts at the dam thing? How do guys like that get a vote, yet others who passionately write about the sport in good faith for over a decade remain on the outside looking in?
Turns out that is a fake ballot.
Larry walker??? Please. I understand he was a good player.. but nice guys don’t always finish first. Great dude but come on.. not for the hall. Carlos Delgado.. fred mcgriff.. Jeff Kent. Dave Parker… I mean do these guys have to die to be elected?? Larry Walker??? It’s ridiculous
Kent? Show me some gold gloves first
Kent was a beast of a hitter. Arguably the best hitter at his position. FG is right about Delgado (travesty he was off the ballot 1st time around) and McGriff.
Parker was better than Baines and should now get a second look.
I believe Kent isn’t in the HOL because of his horrific mustache choice.
Larry Walker is as at worst very close to any of those players offensively and has much more value defensively and running the bases. He was a 5 tool player, none of the others you mention were and I’d vote for at least Kent and McGriff for sure.
@Fg-3
Albert Belle should absolutely be in the HOF. His career was cut short due to a hip injury (at age 33) but in his 10 year career he averaged…
153 games-177 hits-38 doubles-38 homers-123 rbi-and a .933 OPS. In his defense, he was never mentioned to be a PED user during the time when steroids were in rampant use. During his career from 1991-200 he ranks 4th in homers with only Griffey, McGwire and Bonds ahead of him. In fact, during that 10 years span the ONLY guys NOT associated with PEDs are Griffey (#1), Belle (#4) and Thomas (#8) and Bagwell (9th). Pure beast. Offers nothing on defense and was an a-hole to the media but he deserves in the same way other guys who are in the hall but had their careers cut short from an injury like Puckett.
Albert Belle hurt the feelings of many members of the BBWAA. It also sounds like he was a terrible person. Nonetheless, should be in the Hall of Fame and to be dropped off the ballot so quick is a travesty.
Andro is a PED, Bagwell used and it was an illegal substance in Canada when Montreal was still in the NL. Bagwell is associated.
I Really never cared for the writers having the fate of a premier baseball player for the Hall of Fame, most of these dweebs never played the game, I really like to take a look at the idiot that didn’t vote for Jeter, or Griffey or Seaver etc. Seriously !!! I would much rather see a board made up of ex ballplayers, managers, coaches .
Not having played the game shouldn’t be an issue in any case – just follow the game, do your job as a journalist and vote honestly.
Throw in broadcasters too.
Agreed. BBWAA have been an embarrassment. The votes should go to current living members of the Hall.
Every year I get a little annoyed that Bonds and Clemens don’t get in. Then I remember that petty grudges and unsolicited moralizing are what the BBWAA is all about, and unless you’re one of said writers or a player on the ballot, none of this means anything.
Jeter is a roided up cheater who played with a team of cheaters. Then he bought a club to give the Yanks a AAAA ball team. This clown should be banned for and dang sure shouldn’t be in the HOF. To bad only 1 voter got it right
Sigh…..let it out, let it out….
Too bad your parents felt the need to reproduce.
No Schilling? Jeter not unanimous? Evidence # 2,187 that sportswriters are as idiotic as political writers…..
So the worst defensive shortstop of all time gets elected to the hall because he played in New York. What a joke. Jeter is a clown, and the Yankees cheated to win. Another chapter in the circus that used to be MLB.
3,465
Anyone who doesn’t think Larry Walker is a Hall of Famer, just doesn’t get baseball. Congrats to two exceptional players and exceptional men.
Sorry bud… Larry is a hall of good players. But not a all time great. Good is different
Good for both. Walker is over due for that call.
How could anyone actually think Jeter is not a hall of fame player? I’m not a Yankees fan so it’s not a biased question. Only logical answer for leaving him off is the current voting/ballot rules. If said writer knew he’d get in and wanted the space to vote for a different player. Which shows a flawed system.
Good for the Rockies, only good news they will get for a while
We need robot voters for the Hall of Fame. You’re either in or not. One vote when you’re eligible. This unanimous thing is stupid. Who cares anymore. And absolutely PED’s are infinitely worse than stealing signs, holy cow, that’s a no-brainer. Anyone who thinks that occasionally getting to know what pitch is coming versus being permanently jacked to another level is even remotely close is a fool. Get a clue people.
PED’s only keep you healthy, dont make you good at baseball.
Stealing signs only makes you good at baseball. You have absolutely no grasp of logic and reason, or you think pumping iron literally is the same as hitting a baseball. Both are wrong.
It’s basic logic you are arguing against, and its because ESPN has warped an entire generation of minds to put it on the same obtuse level as high crime, when the NFL actively allows PEDs and most other leagues on the planet do too. MLB’s draconian ideas of what PEDs are have destroyed any chance you have of making a logical argument for them actually being “Cheating” in baseball. You don’t get a hit by bench pressing 500 pounds.
Don’t blame ESPN for you being wrong. Also, the NFL doesn’t allow PEDs so you’re wrong on that too, as evidenced by the fact that Josh Gordon was suspended indefinitely for using them.
Played softball with a guy who was severely pumped, totally musclebound, but my sister could hit better – literally. The only benefit is the promotion of healing and getting back on the field faster. Probably a benefit to NFL lineman, but not MLB.
PEDs doesn’t make you a good hitter but they will help turn an already good and talented hitter into an even better one.
If it didn’t help why did it take McGwire and Sosa to whole new levels? Why did it make Bonds a better player? Why would any player risk the health consequences? Why would they deny before any rule was established? It won’t make you good at baseball, it’ll make a good player better. It also forces peers to have to make bad life decisions to try to stay up with cheaters. Much worse than stealing signs for that reason alone.
while i think Jeter was overrated, theres still no doubt he should be in the hall. whoever didnt vote for him should indeed have their voting privileges removed.
No, that’s wrong. They knew he was getting in and used their vote to keep another guy on the ballot another year.
We don’t need nor should we have unanimous players in the HOF. As a matter of fact, we should be getting at least 10 HOFers every year, but the writers are doing the public a disservice by keeping a petty, worthless (you cant reverse history, you arent going to nullify every title from 1980-2020 just because there was probably a PED user in the org at at least one moment) narrative alive.
I agree. I don’t he was an elite player, but he certainly had an elite career. How is it possible that a writer didn’t think Jeter was HOF material? No one hates the Yankees more than me, but that’s ridiculous.
That vote made no difference whatsoever. So the guy gets in with 99.6% instead of 100%. What does it matter? They don’t make the plaques out of gold instead of bronze with a unanimous selection. Jeter and Walker will have the same plaque even though one got in at 99.6% in his first year and the other 76.6% in his 10th.
People really worry way too much about voting percentages. After 75%, it’s really all just gravy anyway.
Hard to overrate 3,465 hits
Curt Schilling being snubbed once again is absurd. For those writers keeping him out due to Curt’s political rhetoric; I find it funny you cannot cite actual facts to back up your belief. It’s fine to think he is stupid or ignorant, but that’s not supposed to keep him out of Cooperstown.
Does anyone know how many guys have been elected on their final ballot? And can we find out how many have been elected in their final year within the last 20 years? Just curious because there seems to be a pattern which isn’t a good look for the BBWAA for all the complaining they have done over the years.
Predicting Scott Rolen gets in within 3 years.
Why call it the Hall of Fame when you have Pee Wee Reese and Phil Rizzuto in there?
The HOF is not some holy sepulcher. It’s a baseball museum. Pete Rose should be in there and when you put him in there explain he also gambled on Baseball. Same goes for guys like Bonds and Clemons.
If Bud Selig is in there and the racists (and we know there were plenty of those) then there is no excuse for anyone else.
Finally, stop with the writers voting! Players, managers, coaches, and GM should be the only ones who vote. Period FULL STOP!
Whomever omitted him should be banned from ever voting again. This is mind boggling!
Yeah because that one vote really makes a difference. Just for a second think about what you are saying. That extra vote is not going to make the HOF custodian shine his plaque just a little more. 75% is what you need, you don’t get a bonus for more votes.
Larry Walker is the first ever person to wear the Colorado Rockies uniform to be enshrined. The franchise never even had an end of the career stop like the Rays and Wade Boggs or the Marlins with Andre Dawson. The closest until now was Dale Murphy.
It’s about time the Rockies have been allowed to join MLB in the HOF.
Great for Jeter, we loved to hate him in Boston! Miss the rivalry.
If Felix Hernandez took PED’s for Atlanta and won back to back Cy Young’s at ages 34 and 35 and went on to pitch 9 more years after that winning more games and Cy Young’s and World Championships, that wouldn’t be nearly as bad as stealing signs, and yet that’s exactly what Roger Clemens did, but it’s ok, put him in the Hall of Fame. Pathetic.
PEDs are not a miracle cure. Do you know how many scrubby players used steroids and failed to turn into superstars? Look up Manny Alexander or Dan Naulty or Tom House.
And you can’t compare Clemens to a contemporary pitcher because players weren’t drug-tested during most of his career. Felix would likely get caught juicing before too long, but Clemens got away with it much longer due to the era he played in.
I also believe PEDs are morally much worse for a modern player because of the clear legal codification prohibiting them. Just like a bank selling subprime mortgages in 2020 would cause outrage, but was part of the “way of the world” back then. It’s still a sin, but a forgivable one, all things considered.
Whyhazy you’re only saying that because the Sox stand accused of stealing signs. So transparent.
My favorite Jeter moment was game one of the 2012 ALCS against Detroit.
The argument that “Player X would have made the HOF even if he didn’t use steroids” is not a good excuse to ignore actual reality and create an alternate reality where you guess whether or not they would have made the HOF if they didn’t cheat even though they did.
It’s the reason Player X should have never cheated in the first place.
There’s no legitimate argument to make that Jeter doesn’t belong in the Hall of Fame. Is he Inner Circle? No, and I don’t hear people insisting that he is. He’s in, he’s not unanimous, and we ought to give Walker and those who didn’t make it more attention.
If Jeter played for any other team, he doesn’t get in the HOF. Total sham, fraud, media hiney-kisser.
3,465 hits, ANYONE gets into the HOF with 3,465 Hits. ANYONE.
3,465 hits, #6 All-Time says you don’t know what you’re talking about.
@ChiSoxCity
Name me 1 non-PED affiliated player not named Rose, with 3,00 hits that’s not in the HOF or eligible for enshrinement. He doesn’t exist.
Honest question for thought: if Derek jeter had identical numbers across the board but played for the brewers or A’s, does he still get this amount of votes on his first time on the ballot?
Pretty much, 3,465 hits is 6th all time, that’s a pass even if you play in Miami. I say that as someone who thought Jeter was overrated and the least talented of the big 3 SSs but he was able to be very good for a very long time.
He would have gotten in regardless of where he played. Although he would have probably taken a lot of scrutiny as an “accumulator” had he played in Milwaukee or Oakland or Miami. Just look at Craig Biggio. He had over 3000 hits and it still took 3 ballots to get him to squeak into the Hall. Jeter in Miami is much closer to Biggio than Honus Wagner or Cal Ripken. That’s not necessarily an insult, Biggio is still a HOFer. Just not the best of the best.
3465 end of story for any ball player not named Derek Jeter.
Awesome. I’m elated Walker overcame all the Rockies hate and lack of early support. It felt like a grassroots blogging effort helped get him enshrined. Now let’s get Schilling, Wagner, and Kent in there too.
Kudos to both Walker and Jeter, as they truly were two of the best players of their generation.
Why Omar isn’t in the HOF is a mystery to me.
82 OPS+ is a big part of it. Great defender sure, but he was pure compiler. He had two seasons in his long 24 year career where he had above average OPS. In short he was a less than mediocre hitter with fantastic defense. He’s basically Ozzie Smith 2.0 who I personally think is one of the least deserving HOFers elected by the BBWAA.
Quit looking at the stupid Bill James-type numbers and watch some film. Then you’ll see just how great a player he was.
I absolutely hate that these dumb weird stats have come to be the defining standard nowadays.
Omar was incredible defensively but overall he was never a top 3 player at his position with peers like Jeter, Larkin, Garciaparra, Ripken, Rodriguez, etc. Did he ever get an MVP vote? He would be getting in as a compiler.
I’ll finish my defense of Omar with what a Cleveland sportswriter who voted for him, and who I rarely agree with, said:
“He played 24 years, appearing in 2,709 games at shortstop, the most in history. He won 11 Gold Gloves, second most by a shortstop and accumulated 2,877 hits.
Some defensive metrics do not favor Vizquel in comparison to Ozzie Smith, but I watched for 11 years with the Indians. I’ve never seen anyone better and I’ve never understood why people hold the length of a player’s career against them.
Teams don’t hand out big-league jobs like flyers to an open house. You have to earn them and Vizquel did that for almost a quarter of a century.”
—Paul Hoynes
Anyone whose statistics were greatly enhanced by playing in Denver needs to be banned from the HOF. It’s a joke. Not as bad as the Rock n’ Roll HOF, but it’s getting there.
I absolutely HATE this argument. Nobody ever says anything about pitchers in pitcher parks who put up minuscule ERAs, do they?
I just love how everyone assumes Walker didn’t use PEDs.
Maybe he did and maybe he didn’t. I’ve never read, seen, or heard anything about him being linked to steroids.
Time Line:
1969 – According to former NFL player Lyle Alzado this is the year he started taking steroids. Sports Illustrated story.
June 1980 – Bill “The Spaceman” Lee gives an interview to High Times magazine which talks about drug uses, including steroid use, in MLB. Google search the story.
1991 – Steroids are banned substance in MLB.
1991 – Spitballer Gaylord Perry was elected to the Hall of Fame. The spitball was banned 18 years before Perry was born. Perry would write a book called Me and the Spitter which would come out in 1974 nine years before his last MLB game.
2003 – Steroid testing begins in MLB.
The guy who said no really needs to lose the privilege of voting. Must be someone who knows nothing about baseball period.
The thing is the MLB at the time didn’t even care about PED’s and I’m sure they knew players were using them. People don’t live under a rock. If they were really that worried about steroids at the time, they would of banned them like the NFL. Until people started coming out and complaining about steroid use is when the MLB stepped in. The funny thing is steroids weren’t totally banned from the MLB, but don’t want to elect players who used them to the Hall of Fame. I’m not for or against players of this era getting elected to the Hall of Fame because the MLB didn’t do enough to ban PED’s in the first place. I’m sure a good portion of players that are currently in the Hall of Fame “cheated” some way during their careers in some way or another. Bonds and Clemens should definitely be in the Hall of Fame. Steroids don’t help that much talent.
oh, they knew. operation equine was in the 90’s, mlb ignored it (shoot, i was a teen and knew about it, not a chance mlb didn’t know).
The real question is if the HOF voters, the BBWAA, knew of players using PEDs that they’ve voted in within the last 10 years and did so knowingly. If that is the case, they have politicized the process by keeping out Clemens, Bonds and Sosa.
MLB probably didn’t have a rule against it BECAUSE IT WAS ILLEGAL UNDER FEDERAL LAW.
MLB also does NOT have a rule against murder.
Is it your contention that if MLB really cared if it’s players murdered each other on the field, they would have a rule against it?
Not sure what to make of your question, but andro was an illegal substance in Canada back when someone found it in McGwire’s locker. Montreal still existed back then. Some players who used andro are in the Hall of Fame. It makes the idea of Clemens, Bonds and Sosa reaching Cooperstown less far-fetched.
Walker? Really? Where’s Billy Wagner? Curt Schilling? Walker played in a bandbox and reportedly cheated. Wagner was a beast. Schilling had 3,116 K’s (not to mention his post-season record) but gets snubbed by the liberal voters. The HOF has been a farce for over a decade.
There’s never been any evidence Walker cheated. Meanwhile, Walker’s numbers were amazing even for Coors Field (which while being the best offensive park in MLB is actually the opposite of a bandbox), and he also put up excellent numbers while playing for the Expos and Cardinals, so he wasn’t just a product of Coors Field.
Walker should’ve gotten in a long time ago. Check his road OPS if you think he is merely a Coors’ product. Better than Vlad, Dawson, Baines, etc.
The number of people who are so adamant that Bonds and Clemens shouldn’t get in is ridiculous. Yes, they took illegal drugs to enhance their performance. You know who else did? Hank Aaron. He’s admitted to taking amphetamines (an illegal drug) in order to have the energy to keep playing all 162 games for so long. Given that he wasn’t a 50 homer per season guy, he was a ~40 HR guy who accumulated massive stat totals because he played every day so long, that seems as relevant to his overall totals as someone who juiced to get 50+ for a couple seasons, doesn’t it?
Babe Ruth never had to face a pitcher of color, or a 90 mph slider, and park dimensions made it so you could have a 175 ft home run. Aaron took amphetamines to keep up with the long grind. Mantle and Maris played 162 while the Ruth era didn’t. And yes, many hitters in the 90s took steroids. All of these things were at least tacitly approved by the commissioner and the general public at their respective times, and none of them should require an asterisk or some sort of black mark for “tainting history.” Learn, understand and appreciate context rather than just trying to pretend an era of baseball didn’t exist or wasn’t worthy of remembering.
If the commissioner and the general public tacitly approved of it, why did users hide it and lie about it? Because they knew it was wrong.
Did Selig look the other way? Of course. But, so what?
If the security guard at a bank gives you a wink and walks out of the building, you are still not allowed to rob that bank.
What we need to do is to stop rewriting history as a means of defending a decline in ethics.
As long as you aren’t selective about what you’re outraged by, that’s a fine stance to take. But the majority of people who decry Bonds say that Aaron is still the home run king, and he ALSO used illegal drugs to contribute to those totals. Don’t talk about one as a noble hero and the other as a sneaky cheater (not directed at you specifically, just to be clear).
@ forwhomjoshbelltolls –
Well said, Josh. Your analogies are plentiful, but they are accurate and depict what should be the the main point in many of these articles. I enjoy reading your articulate comments and I’m glad to read an individual has a very strong moral compass. It’s obvious you have very strong values and I think that’s in large part what’s missing from many of these debates, let alone society, in general.
In short, nice job and great points.
@phnxdark23 Your facts regarding Hank Aaron are inaccurate. Hank said in his book that he took amphetamines one time before a game. He had a bad game on the drug and said he felt like he was having a heart attack. He said he never took it again. The benefits of steroids are far superior to amphetamines. Steroids transformed Bonds, a 30-40HR guy to a guy that hit 73 HRs.
I agree that players from 1920s to 1970s would not be able to hit today;s pitchers. They played in an era when most pitchers pitched in the 80s. The velocity, spin rates, and movement that an average MLB player has would best the top pitchers of their time. The hitters and pitchers are much better than the players of yesteryear. Babe Ruth would hit less than 200 in todays game but changed the game for his day. You can;t have a 50 ounce bat with the velocity of today’s pitcher but that will work when pitchers are pitching 80mph.
What does Ruth never having to face a non-white pitcher have to do with anything? How is that his fault?
The absurdity that Jeter wasn’t unanimous by 1 vote aside, I couldn’t be happier that Jeet is finally a hall of famer. Personally, Jeter is the reason I’m a Yankee fan, and a baseball fan overall. My favorite player growing up. I’ve never been to Cooperstown but once his plaque is in the hall, I’ll definitely be paying a visit!
8 voters felt Cal Ripken should not be in the Hall.
13 voters felt Tony Gwynn should not be in the Hall.
The fact that only 1 felt Jeter should not be is a gift. He wasn’t even the best SS on his team.
Ripken & Gwynn were voted on before the ‘unanimous’ was finally broken. Once Mo broke that stupid rule, the only question left for a voter is ‘does Jeter belong in the HOF?’.
Apparently, one voter decided he didn’t. No one hates the EE more than I do, but if a writer doesn’t think Jeter belongs in the HOF, he is definitely unqualified to vote.
Then who was the better SS in his team? (Well, at least admitted that it was “his team.”)
Many posit that A-Rod was better at short – that may be true when he first got there (?) but his health declined relatively quickly as it pertains to his hips, which is prohibitive for ss in the majors. Jeter wasn’t the best defensively, but he was clutch, and had his defensive moments (bleacher catch, jump throws, etc ). He certainly was far from a poor defender. Anyone who says he does not belong in the HOF is being intellectually dishonest.
This voter could have considered there were a couple of players he wanted to stay on the ballot and that Jeter will get in no matter what. This voter could have also thought that the unanimous vote is something that only belongs to the best of the best at what they did (Mariano Rivera). Just because they did not vote does not mean they do not think Jeter does not belong in the hall.
@AZ1998 —
I was not speaking specifically about this writer, although I highly doubt he found 10 people more deserving. I already said he may have a reason I am unaware of as I am neither omnipotent or omniscient. So, I partially agree with you. I just don’t think it’s logical to be that voter, just to be that one voter. Good convo though. I appreciate the dialogue.
Walker played for the Cardinals, too, you know.
Never forget…..Harold Baines is in the hall of fame over Murhpy, Parker, Munson, etc. If Fred McGriff doesn’t make the hall one day ima flip.
This one voter that did not vote Jeter could have considered there were a couple of players he wanted to stay on the ballot and that Jeter will get in no matter what. This voter could have also thought that the unanimous vote is something that only belongs to the best of the best at what they did (Mariano Rivera). Just because they did not vote does not mean they do not think Jeter does not belong in the hall. But still, IMO, it’s stupid to be the ONE voter.
Just because your friends jump off a bridge doesn’t mean you should.
@ Mick1956
But that’s it Mick, and precisely my point, Alex was by far a better SS when he played with the Rangers and the M’s. However, he was never the SS for the Yankees. Hence, Jeter was the better SS in his team bc he was the primary SS, and Alex the 3B. That’s what I am getting at.
Completely agree with you, Juan. Didn’t mean to intimate that I did not. I fully understand your point on that. To use a bad analogy, it’s like saying Trout is the best at third, if he played there. Doesn’t make him the best 3b though.
Hey All,
For some reason my comments aren’t showing with the reply icon. Is that something on my end?
This one did, Mick. I think it just means you are a stud and your word is untouchable and irrefutable…
Mine are doing the same thing. I think it is a measure to keep people from replying to their own comments. Although it is missing the reply option from anyone replying to my thread also.
Your comments have a reply option on my screen.
Lololol. Don’t I wish, Juan
The HOF has turned into a joke. Any player who played half his games in Denver should have an asterisk by his name (Walker’s OPS was over 200 points higher at home). He was good on the road, but nowhere near what the HOF SHOULD require. Ozzie Smith gets in on defense, but Andruw Jones can’t? Tommy John, who had a very good career, should be in if for no other reason than his pioneering surgery. Harold Baines is in, and no one knows why. Curt Schilling can’t get in because he’s an outspoken conservative. Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Ty Cobb, Willie Mays, etc. weren’t unanimous, but Mariano Rivera was? It’s a stupid, biased, political process………..we need a REAL HOF based on REAL things, not some antiquated institution that elects some because they’re good butt kissers.
Now that Derek Cheater is in, can we all stop with Harold Baines comments?
Clemens, bonds, arod, and rose deserve to be in. Put rose in now before he passes away and everyone bemoans “we should have done it long ago”. Its the hall of fame, not the hall of nice guys. It’s where the best players are honored. It’s where they belong.
Agreed. It’s turned into a popularity contest…….it’s the “Most Popular Good Baseball Players” club.
Well put Kevin.
Although I don’t agree with Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod, Sosa, Mac, etc, they need to correct the Pete Rose situation. It is wholly unfair imo to hold what he did as a manager against his performance as a player, with betting. Betting can’t make him any better, like PEDs.
He’s one of the best players of that generation and deserves to be a HOFer, imo.
Good writing guys, I enjoyed the read of different opinions.