Baseball fans love to debate which players should make it to the Hall of Fame, and with the designated hitter position so prominent in the news at the moment, it got me to thinking about David Ortiz’s Cooperstown case. The Boston legend will be eligible to make it there in 2022, and there’s a strong argument he should wind up with a plaque in the museum.
Ortiz is one of the most feared hitters in recent memory, but his career began inauspiciously in Minnesota. As a Twin from 1997-2002, Ortiz amassed 1,693 plate appearances and batted .266/.348/.461 (106 wRC+) with 58 home runs. The Twins then cut ties with Ortiz, but at the behest of Pedro Martinez, the Red Sox signed Big Papi to a non-guaranteed contract in January 2003. Now, in terms of franchise-altering steals, that could rank in Boston sports lore with the Patriots getting Tom Brady in the sixth round of the 2000 NFL Draft.
Ortiz was a smash success with the Red Sox from the jump, as he slashed .288/.369/.592 (145 wRC+) and put up 31 homers in 509 trips to the plate during his first season with the team. The Red Sox lost to the hated Yankees in the ALCS that year, but they and Ortiz frequently ruled the sport after that. During the rest of Ortiz’a career from 2004-16, all of which was spent in Boston, the Red Sox won three World Series. He was a 10-time All-Star and a .290/.386/.570 hitter (146 wRC+) who piled up 483 homers with the team during that span. Along with his regular-season accomplishments, Ortiz was a monster in the playoffs. When the chips were down in the fall, Ortiz was known to thrive. He was a World Series MVP (2013) and an ALCS MVP (2004 – the year the Red Sox overcame a 3-0 deficit against the Yankees) who appeared in 85 postseason games between his two clubs and hit .289/.404/.543 with 17 HRs.
As for the regular season, Ortiz ranks 65th all-time in wRC+ (140) and 182nd among position players in fWAR (51.0). He ended his career a .286/.380/.552 hitter who racked up the 17th-most homers ever, 541, and remained an elite hitter even in his last season. Ortiz’s amazing run didn’t come without issues, though. Back in 2009, the New York Times reported Ortiz tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs in his breakout 2003 campaign. Ortiz vehemently denied those claims, as you’d expect, and commissioner Rob Manfred came to the slugger’s defense in 2016. Manfred said (via the Boston Globe) it was “entirely possible” Ortiz didn’t take PEDs, adding that “he’s never been a positive at any point under our (testing) program” that began in 2004.
Even if you’re OK with brushing off the PED questions when it comes to Ortiz’s Hall of Fame candidacy, are you willing to be as forgiving when it comes to a lack of defensive impact? For the most part, Ortiz was a full-time DH during his career, which some purists frown upon. For example, former Mariners superstar Edgar Martinez is one of the greatest DHs ever, but it took him until his final year on the ballot (2019) to get to Cooperstown. He’d have been a first-ballot pick for me if I had a vote, though, and the same applies to Ortiz. However, as Hall of Fame expert and FanGraphs writer Jay Jaffe explained in a piece for SI.com in 2016, “a spot in Cooperstown is no certainty” for Ortiz. Do you think it should be?
(Poll link for app users)
nononononononononononononononono
Username Explains It All
Papi, the smiling face of that dynasty will slide in easy. DH and PEDs are not relevant here. He was beloved by all but Yankee fans.
Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod and all of the roid abusers should go in, but any admitted PED user should not go in until they are dead, They should not get the honor of the jacket, the ceremony, or the merch bump.
PED’s are not relevant, yet if they admitted to the use they are? And if they quite likely lied to the Senate as Clemens appeared to with his fidgeting and lick-lipping, that’s fine? Your logic seems inconsistent.
I’m not some purist railing against PED’s. Selig and owners brought the problem on themselves by waiting so long to take action on testing and punishment.
I don’t recall how substantial that NYT report was on Ortiz, but it seems he should be in the HoF. It seems Edgar Martinez should definitely be in.
He was a ped user though
Xactly Sudden. He never was a user during the testing era, n look how he performed! Never considered a PED user no matter how many haters scream about it. Ortiz was a fantastic player, period!!
What jacket…
Hey, I’m a Yankees diehard and I respect the hell out of Ortiz. He is to this generation of Sox fans what Jeter is to Yankees fans of a certain age. He made that rivalry special, especially in the old Stadium.
Is he a HOFer? Not with the PED speculation. Should he be? Absolutely.
I think he will be the one to break the string bc he was so likable
Some of these suspected ped users are accused based on nothing. There’s nothing substantial that I’ve come across that made me feel comfortable enough to put him in the class with other ped users. He hit well before and after testing. One of if not the greatest dh of all time. Crucial in a number of WS titles. It’s as if you were big in stature and played any of your career in the steroid era you are a user. Unless he found a way to beat all the tests he took after they began testing while he was continuing to mash I couldn’t hold him out. He could have played at least another year too. Unless someone comes up with some hard evidence vote the guy in
What should be relevant is that he was not a real baseball player most of his career. No DH shoukd be in the hall
As a Sox fan, I want him in Boston’s HOF for the aftermath of the bombing but no PED abuser deserves to be in the hall. Jail for fraud is more my thinking as I believe he cheated right to the end. How else do you explain his last season, the best batting season ever for a player that age? Players stole money and opportunities from others and/or contributed to the inflated prices teams today charge. Just my take. So many other deserving players whose stats look mediocre next to the PED guys who if you watched the game know they were more deserving.
good thing you don’t have a vote idiot
Really? How do you state “he was a ped user”?. He never tested positive from the 1st year they started testing in 2004 through the last game he played. And that statement was made by the commissioner.
TedYaz – agree !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
According to your logic, no A.L. pitcher should be inducted in the HOF before inter league games because they never hit.
never failed a test or had anyone narc him out.
PED speculation? thats enough to keep him out? yeah, ok, i hope you are never on a jury.
Medic, I probably have more trial experience than you. A juror us told to evaluate a witness’s credibility and if you question it, you can accept any part of, all or none of a person’s testimony. The league has protected in my view certain favorites and his last year at that age with bad feet either represents the greatest hitting season ever or makes some people even more suspicious.
No cheater deserves to go into the hall. If Pete Rose isn’t allowed for gambling then those guys who cheated sure as hell don’t deserve it
Pete Rose agreed to his lifetime ban, but only after Giamatti died, did the “it was only supposed to be for 1 year” excuse come out.
Rose agreed to it because he wanted the investigation to stop, because he knew what they would find.
And for those of you who say, he only bet on his team to win, well if he would have bet for his team to win 162 games a year, it’d be a different story, but only betting certain games, well the games he didn’t bet sent a pretty clear message that he thought they were gonna lose.
But don’t worry about Pete Rose, he still makes a ton of money, and he’s at induction weekend every year signing autographs in Cooperstown.
Does Rose still take his 16 year old girlfriends with him to Cooperstown to make sure all his bets get in in time?
Not sure they’re old enough to place a bet, but see where you’re aiming. Happy to pass further ammunition….
how did he cheat? He came to the RSox in 2003. And had his greatest seasons after that. Testing was initiated in 2004. And as the commissioner said..he never tested positive from then until he retired.
Please tell us how he cheated? he never failed a PED test,
They’ll get in with the veterans committee eventually if they dont get voted in. I’m happy to let them wait
Absolutely right, they will put Rose in after he’s dead.
Hey jeterleader please don’t forget that your beloved shortstop was a below average defensive player by almost every statistical standard and yet an obviously deserving HOFer. Please don’t let your ridiculous Boston bias cause you to sound stupid. Ortiz killed the Yankees in his career. You, of all fans should know how obvious it is that he is also a HOFer.
At least Jeter played a position, and played clean unlike Ortiz who needed peds to keep his career going.
The problem with this is that him playing that position actually made him a worse overall player. So it stands to reason that Ortiz not playing the field actually helped the Red Sox win. Whereas Jeter playing the field actually hurt the Yankees chances of winning.
MZ you are smoking something that scrambled your memories.
that’s not accurate, you just that no it is
when exactly did he take peds? He joined the RSox in 2003..Testing began in 2004, and he never failed a test. You saying the commissioner is lying.
Or that he took peds in 2003 and was still hitting bombs in 2015 because of the 2003 roids? Wow that would be some good sh.stuff
Really? please tell us when he used Peds, i am sure you must have proof, or something?
There is a big difference between being a below average SS and an unplayable 1B. SS is the hardest position other than C to play so just about every SS is at least an average defensive player overall. Even someone that is bad at SS is likely a better defender than an average 3B or 2B, or even a pretty good 1B. So while Jeter may have been below average for a SS, it is not accurate to say he would have been better off as a DH
Ortiz player a decent 1B n so what if he’s DH? That is a position now so please stop being a hater!
He was not decent at 1B, any way you can evaluate defense from old school to new school said he was an awful defender. I don’t think DHs should be excluded from the HOF automatically but I think it’s only fair to dent their resume for a lack of fielding ability. I think WAR does a pretty good job of penalizing the DH, they basically say a DH has the fielding value of a really bad defensive 1B and if you go by WAR, Ortiz does not meet the HOF standards in terms of total career value or peak value so it’s not unreasonable to vote no on him just based on the stats
LOL stop with the dumb comments about how Jeter was a below-average defender. He’s the only career SS in a hundred years to hit over .300 lifetime, his multiple Gold Gloves prove your opinion to be false and irrelevant.
Jeter had incredible range in his prime. People age, and he’s the only SS of the “big 3” to not need to change positions or retire early because of injury/steroids/scorched earth campaigns. A-Rod changed positions because the Yankees already had a SS, and his PEDs made him too big for the position, and his two hips prevented him from playing the field at all at the end of his career. Nomar changed positions twice because he couldn’t stay healthy and ultimately retired early for the same reason.
Hell, even Ripken couldn’t play SS his entire career. Nobody calls them poor defenders. Jeter was the best SS of a generation. Period.
Derek Jeter was definitively a poor defensive SS. Thats not a question or opinion, that is fact at this point in time. Every metric agrees, every scouting service agrees. He was average at best, even in his younger years.
However, he was a good enough hitter and baserunner for most of his career that it didn’t matter. He was still a good player, even though he wasn’t good defensively.
Mark Belanger was the greatest defensive shortstop to ever play the game. He wasn’t half the player that Jeter was because he was so bad at the plate.
Once again. Derek Jeter was bad in the field. He was still a great player who had a great career, and is in the hall of fame.
Jeter benefited for much of his career by having a great infield around him. Tex and Cano covered more ground on that side of the diamond than I can remember from any other combo. That allowed Jeter to cheat in positioning himself. ARod also played a very good third. Makes life easier at short with that type of defense at the other positions.
Lifelong Yankee fan here and I 100% agree with this. Jeter was just a really subpar SS. A-Rod was a far better fielder but the Yankess were not going to move Jeter because he was who he was.
Jeter probably should’ve finished his career playing LF, just an honest assessment.
How can a “lifelong Yankees fan” want Jeter in the outfield? That ’14 outfield with elsbury ichiro and Gardner and you’d want Jeter out there in left field? Fake Yankees fan
Yeah fake Yankee fan for wanting a better fielding SS playing SS. Jeter cost the Yankees wins with his well below average SS.
You know I respected Jeter, Rivera and many others in Yankee lore. He is one of those players all teams must respect and accept that he belongs. This coming from. Giants fan that believes Bonds deserves to be in just simply based on his numbers long before he was implicated in juicing. Big Papi needs to be in the HoF period. If you don’t like it, then !%# up!
“Bonds deserves to be in just simply based on his numbers long before he was implicated in juicing”
So how long did it take Bonds to swallow his twin brother, grow twice the size, grow four shoe sizes and develop a cranium that looked like a bowling ball?
Implication is just that – what I’m implying is different to what you’re implying…
Roids ruined baseball – eliminating records from the Ruths, the Mantles, the Aarons, the Maris’s. The true greats. The sooner baseball gets to grips with this – and simply eliminates the records of the PROVEN cheats – the better.
I believe quite the contrary, roids certainly did not ruin baseball, in-fact, many would say they saved it.
You have no case to stand on. He wasn’t using steroids before the McGuire, Sosa season and his stats were already deserving. Period!
If I had a vote, I’d not vote for either Bonds nor Clemens. You simply don’t know when they started cheating or if they looked for other questionable edges before when we “think” we know. Fraud is fraud in my book.
…this is a hilarious position from an A’s fan.
I’m fine if Bonds is let in for this reason, but i need to hear 75% of the voters say that is the reason they voted for him. any other reason is absurd. i also would only wait to let him in until guys like Sosa and such fall off the ballot so they cant be used as an excuse to let more cheaters in. i dont approve of Bonds’s cheating, but i can agree with the rationale that he’d probably be in without given his career trajectory and just how good he became.
I don’t like it.
Only if you let Bonds and Clemens in. But even after those two greats get in, I don’t want Ortiz in until he has been on the ballot for more years then those two.
You, Ck are on crack.
Amen to that!
Yes yes yes
CHEATER!!
Agree with everything you said except the part about everything you said. If they juiced, they do not get in. Ever.
Bonds – No
Clemens – No
A-Roid – Hell No!
Absolutely the HOF was ruined when they voted in Bill Mazeroski and Phil Rizzuto both .250 hitters maybe solid players but definitely not HOFamers
Jeter can’t even run a baseball organization!
I’m a Yankees fan and I’m Friggen even insulted this is a question!
Do you think Arod should?
All the way up until he lied and was caught, yes I did believe AROd should have gotten in. I loved watching him play. Had he not tried after the whole PEDS issue blew up to get additional treatment I would have accepted him without question.
A-Rod, Bonds, & Pete Rose both should be in on numbers, problem is that as soon as their lips start moving you know they’re both lying.
I can’t believe (in A- Rod’s case) that he had an epiphany in Texas (no-one else ever has) in 2003 and some sort of reverse in NY a dozen years later….
A’sfan–well of course he didn’t have a reverse and stop using. Did you forge the last two+ years of A-Rod’s career? The Biogenesis scandal? Getting suspended for a year? Him suing baseball? You’re only referring to the first time he was outed for using steroids and his first apology.
Ugh why don’t we just let Sosa, McGwire and Canseco in (rolling eyes)
Rumors were ARod did “things” as early as high school. I went to many games when they were young and the PED discussion was always “Jeter no or unlikely, Nomar possibly or probably and ARod yes or most definitely”.
100% but he won’t
thank you!?!?
Your to stupid to post so I’m insulted that you even got into this discussion.
“you’re” “too” stupid to post as well.
I think people are misreading his comment. Pretty sure he means he is insulted that it is a question in the sense that Ortiz should absolutely be in. Not the other way around.
YES. No discussion!
…then you are an idiot. No discussion!
I think he gets in but not first ballot.
Good take! I agree, especially since he’s way over the 500 HR mark and won those three championships (not that those should be the indicators of a HoF career, it’s just what the writers respond to). I’d bet third or fourth ballot. Man deserves it
Absolutely
Yes for sure a HOF and anyone that’s says no is a clown
No because if Bonds and Clemens cant how can we let a lesser player?
Answer: it’s a joke they aren’t in the HOF
I think both Bonds AND Rocket should get in and I’m even more upset the RS haven’t officially retired Clemens number.
pasha… wonder if playing for the Yankees has anything to do with it?
that would be a stupid reason and shows that that team is terribly childish for holding a grudge for ~100 years.
Well he also didn’t cheat the game like Bonds and Clemens…
I get your concern. Being a Giants fan I know Bonds should be in, but only based on his numbers before he blew up. His ego got in the way and it’s cost him years that it should never have cost him to get in. Clemens is simply one of the best ever as well. But I’m also a person who believes Rose should be foregiven and let in.
No for sure not a HOF and anyone that says yes is a clown
I said no, because if bonds won’t get in because of steroids, then why should Ortiz, who intentionally took steroids?
and Bonds was a much better player!
If he really took steroids don’t you think his body would have looked a little better than it did?
You do not understand the way PEDs affect the body
So you really think Barry Bonds “accidentally” took steroids? He was just innocently rubbing some flaxseed oil on his elbow and somehow got as big as a house for like 6 years, but never questioned anything? All a big misunderstanding? His personal trainer went to jail to NOT testify against Bonds, but he had nothing to hide?
He never did during the banned yr n was never punished, unlike A Rod
There is no proof he ever did. Bonds was a HoF long before he blew up. Your another person who is too stupid to even post.
73: telling someone they are too stupid to post and you dont understand use of ‘your’ and ‘you’re’ not once, but twice, likely means you are too stupid to post, FYI.
Please do not forget that 73 is probably 12. He will figure out spelling and the difference between “to” and “too” eventually.
I’m not here for a grammatical course. I’m posting so I could care less about the incidentals. So you our stuck at home not being able to use your red pen to correct people.
How much less could you care?
He admitted use! Why is this always forgotten?!
Retire 21 I actually did not know that. I’m a Red Sox fan through and through, pretty big time, and I think I was working a lot in those years, so I missed it.
But everything I keep hearing and reading is that they never found him guilty of PED use so why is everybody keep saying that he was a user? They never found him guilty of it in testing?
So now I know why. Thank you I’m going to have to Google that for further info.
How can a one dimensional steroid user get in before the greatest player maybe ever in Bonds and one of the greatest pitchers in Clemens?
Lolol! This is such a ridiculous article! The candidacy for Ortiz is not in question in the slightest!
Guy was a 10-time all-star who was a star player on 3 World Series teams, including one that broke an 86-year championship curse in which they were the first, and only team, to ever come back from a 3-0 playoff deficit. In that historic series, btw, Ortiz had walk-off hits in both games 4 AND 5.
Then in the 2007 World Series he only
managed to get on base more than 50% of his at-bats in the Red Sid 4-0 sweep over the Rockies.
To top it off, he then hit a ridiculous .670 (yes, he was THAT GOOD) in the 2013 World Series won over the Cardinals.
This guy wasn’t just a good player; he had a Hall of Fame career and then was UNWORLDLY when it mattered most.
Back to the drawing board for whoever wrote this absurdity!
I am confident that you didn;t read the article
Cheater cheater pumpkin eater
Good hitter not a good player.
Nothing but facts. Anyone with PED accusations need to do the same.
Cheaters who get caught don’t belong.
Do cheaters who don’t get caught belong? Honestly wondering your opinion on that.
…he never tested positive….
Well, it seems like he did, just not when it was against the rules. I’m okay with him getting in, but if gets in and Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, and Sosa don’t, remember they never “tested” positive either than neither should he. I never understood why Ortiz wasn’t included in the same category as the above mentioned.
Ortiz was always well loved (in Boston especially but even throughout baseball). Bonds and Clemens clearly weren’t, Sosa burned his bridges before retiring and Mcgwire lost his support with his non response before Congress
Ortiz well loved throughout baseball? Tell that to the ballpark staff and dugout equipment he terrorized during his frequent roid rages
Yeah that one time he beat up a phone in a dugout after a blown strike call. Anyone who has done that is obviously on roids.
Obviously I’m a Sox fan, but I don’t think the unproven (and frankly still unclear) evidence about a potential Ortiz positive test is a serious obstacle here. It’s certainly not close to the severity of the Bonds, Clemens, Sosa and McGwire cases, or the Manny Ramirez case. Just never seemed to be any “there” there, vs the other cases where there’s actual evidence. (Cue the attack replies saying I’m not being objective!)
Yeah he did test positive. It’s amazing how Red Sox fans defend Ortiz to the death and just can’t admit he cheated. The guy was not good with the twins. Goes to the Red Sox and hits 50 bombs
well another Twin in the HOF started very slow.. Kiirby Puckett hit 4 hrs in first 2 years.. over 1400 pa… Next year 34?in 86… Jeff Bagwell light hitting aaa prospect.. goes to Astros and forget about it.. Things that make you go hmnnn
…he did not test positive, as quoted above.
“I did not have sex. With. That. Woman.”
Do all the players who took legal amphetimes “Greenies” to help them get through the dog days of summer get a free pass. Apparently so cause there are loads of players in the HoF who knowingly took them, and you’d have to be stupid not to think that it didn’t give them an edge. Stuff happened, but there era before steroids was by no means clean either. It just was legal at the time, and technically. so was HGH and many other supplements. I don’t have a problem with any of it simply because all of it was there at its juncture in the game to provide and edge. Steroids simply took it to another planet. Wipe out the numbers after 98-99 season and despite all that he still qualifies for HoF, Period!
I don’t imagine greenies add 25’ to every fly ball that you hit.
I think he will get in but he was not statistically quite as good as Edgar Martinez who barely made it in so I’m not sure he should be a shoo in. That’s before you consider the steroid allegations but it seems like he’s popular enough to outweigh those concerns in the minds of many
Edgar Martinez clealry had better numbers than David Ortiz but it’s the Hall of FAME, not the Hall of Baseball’s Best Players.
Ortiz achieved stardom on baseball’s most prominent stages while the superior Martinez was mired in relative obscurity.
David Ortiz will be a Hall of Famer.
Bud Selig’s MLB knowingly allowed steroid use in order to increase revenue. For him to be in the HOF and not the players would be disingenuous.
Ortiz has admitted earlier in his career he was more reckless with what he was taking so i think it’s entirely possible he did take steroids. that being said Bagwell is in, Piazza is in, Pudge rodriguez is in. if we truly cared about making the HOF totally pure then none of those guys should be in. i have absolutely no problem with ortiz joining the HOF and think he would be a very deserving candidate
I think in most cases, a career DH’s lack of defensive contributions are a justifiable argument for them not making it into the HOF. But with a very select number of players like Edgar and Ortiz, who put up otherworldly offensive numbers over the majority of their careers, I think it’s enough to let them in.
Pitchers don’t hit (AL.) They let them in.
But they do field
Barely
If only the Mariners didnt trade him for Dave Hollins
HE JUICED
Did he use a nutribullet, ninja or just a blender?
He had the Jack LaLanne juice magic juicer.
Yes. I’m loving the steady stream of content from you guys, but I’m not sure this one needed a post.
if he gets in and bond doesn’t it will show why baseball is losing fans. there is no fairness in baseball!
He’s a first-ballot lock
To add to this: There’s a difference between hearsay and fact. Even if you’re convinced he juiced, at best he’s a first ballot below 90%. Reputation has a lot to do with these things sometimes and Ortiz is a beloved figure around baseball. No chance he isn’t on the first ballot, but the total votes may not be as high the resume would normally warrant.
Yes, he will appear in his first ballot that is a guarantee based on logic. But if he will definitely not be voted in his first year on the ballot. If Edgar wasn’t, it would be a slap in face to Edgar that he was in and prove market bias.
Unfortunately, Martinez played in Seattle whereas Ortiz became a postseason legend, helping Boston to three championships.
The market, playoff moments, numbers, and postseason MVPs all factor into this. It isn’t simply looking at numbers, seeing Martinez didn’t get in until his 10th ballot and assuming the same will be for Big Papi.
As for the market, it’s easier to amass a media following in a bigger market, but it’s also much more intense. Edgar fit well in Seattle just like Helton/Colorado, Jones/Atlanta, and Jeter/New York. That’s not to say Martinez couldn’t have handled the pressure, but Ortiz did and benefits from it.
As I said, he’ll go in on the first ballot probably at 80-85% of the vote. The absolute stunner would be him lasting until his second year.
(Not to mention Ortiz has better numbers, success, and more hardware.)
Lmao, of course he is.
YES! Set the precedent to allow Juicers into the hall. Bonds, Clemens, Ortiz, Cruz, Cano, A-Rod, the list goes on. Let them in! They were/are all terrific players!
It’s a no brainer.
Big Papi is a 100% Hall of Famer.
Agree. No brain required in that comment. No pulse either.
Don’t like RedSox as a Yankee fan, but I think Ortiz will get in mostly because of clutch post season accomplishment and 547 HR’s. His charity stuff was to turn his image from the mistake he made rookie year. No proof later he passed all testing. Edgar M helped pave his way in. A-Rod, Bonds, Clemens won’t get in HOF until current writers are retired !
Do you think the Veterans committee lets in the cheaters? I think they let in Rose before that happens.
It seems to me that if you’re mentioned in the Mitchell Report or your name is Sammy Sosa you have a much less likely chance of reaching the HoF. Ortiz is not in that report.
Also Ortiz was supposedly regularly tested post 2003. That means that any accomplishments he reached were done without the use of PEDs.
I’m not even a Red Sox fan but that’s much different than Palmeiro/Sosa/Mac/Bonds beefing their way past records that have stood for 100 years.
Bonds should get in if papi gets in
His numbers don’t justify a Hall of Fame selection. There is no argument to be made in that respect.
Due to Boston bias, and off the field considerations, he will likely get in.
Why do they always question the defensive skills of a DH when it comes to the hall but never question the offensive skills of a pitcher? They always question if a person has a ring but here they’re saying he’s much better in the playoffs so we shouldn’t count it. What the heck? I do not like the DH but Papi should be first ballot HOF’er.
Is that a serious question?
No
My only knock on him is that he was so bad at defense. That said, his offense, particularly his very clutch playoff hitting, makes him a HOF player with everything else he did.
Regarding the steroid accusations, at least Big Papi passed several tests that others could not. He played mostly in the era when they were tested. Even if Papi did PEDs (and we’ll never know), I think a thought exercise helps understand his skill. Compare McGuire to Papi and you see a big difference. Mac is a home run hitter that walked and also sucked on defense and base running. Papi hit for average and was exponentially better in the box with the game on the line. He was a big part of Boston breaking the curse and winning 3 championships—one seemed like it was mostly his offense that won the big games.
Actually, his career fielding % is .990. So not terrible. That is simply not true.
So you’re telling me the guy who became a strict DH was actually an above average fielder? Fielding percentage aside, the eye test and facts would disagree with you.
You talking about McGwire and defense? He is a .993 defensive player. He has a very good glove, for being a big guy. The guys worst season defensive is his rookie season, when he was a 3rd baseman. McGwire might not stole bases, but neither did Ortiz. McGwire is also a very smart on the bases. he had more intentional walks then he had double plays. Maybe your Ortiz worshiping is blocking critical thinking.
The argument goes like this: Mac and Ortiz were below average defensively and on the bases, while Ortiz did a lot more than Mac at the plate. I am comparing them because I believe it shows how Ortiz is a HOFer while Mac is just outside. There’s several I’d put before Mac, but they were also better at other things (McGriff, Mattingly, etc). Ortiz is more clutch and better at getting hits.
If you can’t vote for Bonds, ARod, Clemons, or Manny, how do you vote this guy in. Look at Piazza and how long it took him because of BACK ACNE!!! But he’ll get in because there has always been a double standard for him regarding PEDs because he is likable.
Personally, I would vote them all in. But if no Bonds, then sorry Papi you out too
He’s been implicated in the steroid scandal before.
Interesting there’s no mention of that.
The argument for anyone benefiting from PEDs not getting into the HOF went completely out the window for me when Tony La Russia was elected unanimously as the used car salesman Selig cheered along.
Anytime someone accused of steroids is given some accolades, or in this case potential accolades, people start bringing up Bonds. Bonds looked like his shoulders ate his neck. When he was a human he was a super athletic 5 tool player and just because he was on a hall of fame trajectory does not forgive him being a scumbag. Steroid use by Ortiz may be debated (I wouldn’t be surprised if he did) but Bonds,Canseco, and McGwire are egregious examples of cheating. Their pre-supplement work was great but the post-supplement work is questionable, and that is what makes a good to great player a hall of famer and they unfairly boosted those numbers.
Can’t vote a pre-roids player, only their whole line of work. I remember seeing McGwire when I worked at PNC Park and he was the cardinals hitting coach. If you told me this dude was a 6’5” 220lb in his youth, I’d would have thought you were insane. He looked like melted plastic and maybe a buck sixty
What about I-Rod and Piazza both being in the Hall of Fame?
Jose Canseco is no doubt a scum bag but he flat out said that he injected Ivan Rodriguez. Canseco did not have a vendetta against I-Rod (like he admitted having against ARod) and yet the committee was perfectly fine with enshrining Ivan Rodriguez.
How can one sit there and leave out Barry Bonds who is arguably the greatest player of all time and elect Rodriguez in?
Absolutely not!
As long as the Hall of Fame committee continues to blackball one of the greatest players to ever play the game, no one with even a hint of PED suspicion should be voted in.
Of course, the self righteous Hall of Fame committee had already let in suspected steroid users in and the induction of Tim Raines is slap in the face to all baseball fans.
big papi has the biggest cabeza in baseball!
Ortiz, Bonds, Clemens and A’Rod shouls all be in the HOF. To my knowledge they were never suspended for PED’s. The steroid era 93′-03′ had nothing on the books saying you couldnt use them.
One dopey NY paper said there’s a list whom no one has seen. BTW, no Yankee name was released. They are all HOF’ers as is Rose. Put’em in!!!
ARod was suspended but didn’t fail a PED test. He was suspended for receiving PED’s in the biogenieses scandal.
He was suspended for interferring in an investigation into Balco.
I never said any of these guys have not done PED’s. There was nothing in place to suspend them till 04′ so we are going on assumption. How do you penalize someone on that? Oh yea now a days your guilty untill proven innocent.
If legends like Bonds Clemens AROD don’t get big papi doesn’t deserve to either, even though they all do, boomers need to learn how to respect greatness
Maybe “boomers” respect purity of the game, and disrepect participation trophies for everyone.
“Its ok little fella, we will let you in anyhow.”
Maybe you should change your name, because its wrong.
Arod also has never had a positive test after the 2003 test samples. Yet MLB still found out he and a bunch of others were using PEDs and was able to get around the testing. So why wouldn’t Ortiz have been able to get around that also.
Well they never actually found out Arod was doing them. They found out he purchased them but not that he took them.
A Rod failed a test in 2008/2009 didn’t he?
Ortiz is a cheater, using performance enhancing drugs. If The 1919 Black Sox players who threw the WS, Pete Rose, Barry Bonds, Palmero, Sammy Sosa, Roger Clemens and Mark McGuire aren’t deserving because they cheated, Ortiz doesn’t belong in the HOF period.
You’d be totally right if you weren’t 100% wrong.
Be specific in your assertion. OP was, as they posted tangible facts, as all names mentioned have tangible proof of PED use. You choose to ignore the PED use of one David Ortiz.
I prefer the same standard for everyone. You apparently don’t. Cool story though!
Wasn’t that proven to be incorrect years later?
Specifics: the 2003 test were not conducted to reliable standards because they were intended to be fact finding and not actually catch users, is known to contain false positives, and it is not clear what substances were included in tests (the lawyers who leaked the Ortiz results explicitly said they did not know what he tested positive for, assuming the results weren’t a false positive). For all we know, basic and fairly benign (relatively speaking) PEDs such as amphetamines were included in the testing.
While Ortiz most definitely isn’t exonerated, overriding 13 clean, tested-negative seasons on the basis of a single lacking-details report from a single, highly-questionable test result is…well, a clear sign of bias against the player.
If you feel so strongly that Ortiz is a clear, proven “cheater”, you either didn’t bother to educate yourself on the situation or else have an axe to grind against the player. Either way, it reflects much more negatively on you than the PED situation does on Ortiz at this point. You should probably focus on your own flaws rather than condescend to those who are more informed than you on the subject.
Why isn’t Fred McGriff in?
if a proven PED user gets in before McGriff it will be a sad day
Absolutely. The best of his era. Post season monster.
“his career began inauspiciously in Minnesota”
Oh you mean before he started doing roids?
Actually, he had an .809 OPS with the Twins and his performance was trending up when they let him go to save money, and he was also highly regarded as a prospect. But we all know people like you aren’t concerned with facts or reality.
Yes second ballot only cause he has no real defensive position.
Yes he is.
As a die hard Yankees fan.. I couldn’t stand Ortiz I could never ever figure out why we didn’t plunk him from time to time to make him back off plate! And even though I’m pretty sure he was dirty the whole time.. or most of it. There is no question he’s a first ballot HOF. If not for his performance vs Yankees
Just look at his numbers. Look at his last year. Who has ever done that?
PEDs are a helluva a drug.
Yeah…look at his last year…
I’m sure lots of clean players have their career years at age 40.
He has tangible proof of a failed drug test, we know about the “Papi Shakes”, leading the league in slugging, OPS, RBI and doubles as a 40 year old. PEDs indeed! Who else eviscerated pitching as a 40 year old with waining legs? Barry Bonds. Great comp there, Papi. Who was worth three times what Papi was. Bonds actually won MVP awards and was actually great BEFORE PEDS. Ortiz was a great hitter, only with the help of PEDs.
If Papi gets in, so should Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Rafael Palmeiro and A-Rod. They used the same PEDs were all almost worth TWICE as much as Boston deity, David “Golden One” Ortiz.
Why do people ignore Papi’s PED use? If he does get it, we all know there are a handful of players who were worth DOUBLE his WAR and have the same kinda baggage. The Boston media (NESPN) loves Papi, therefore ignore his sins.
They ignore his PED use because Boston fans are some of the most ignorant group of people on this planet.
The irony of someone who is ignorant about the “proof” of Ortiz as a PED user (not saying he is innocent or guilty, but it isn’t even remotely close to proof) calling other people ignorant is amusing.
If you declare Ortiz a sure PED user, you are either immorally biased, too lazy to do basic research into the facts on this, or not thoughtful enough to understand what the research would tell you. So which is it, immoral, lazy, or stupid?
I normally wouldn’t insinuate such insults, but given that you already threw out garbage (and false) explicit insults it is what it is.
Haters going to hate
Using precedent, absolutely NOT. If A-Rod, Palmeiro, Manny, Bonds, Clemens AND MORE are all black-balled, so should Papi.
Tangible proof exists that Big Papi also used PEDs. We can choose to ignore facts, or we can call a spade a spade.
Let them all in or none.
PLAY BALL!
That “tangible proof” has been questioned quite a bit over the years, whereas the other guys you mentioned were actually caught and lied about their use…a couple under oath.
2022 will be Bonds/Clemens final year on the ballot. Papi doesn’t deserve to go in before them (or Rose, for that matter) but, if they aren’t by then, his election will throw salt on their wounds.
From my point of view, a DH shouldn’t go straight in if Edgar didn’t. Papi should go in 2nd or 3rd ballot but will likely get lower limit 1st ballot entry. A-Rod, Bonds and Clemens should not get in off a writer’s vote. Peer review, aka Veteran’s Committee selection, seems most appropriate because they all deserve to be there, on performance if not character.
Bringing Rose into the discussion is actually a non-starter for me: With Major League sports all cozying up to the revenue from gambling interests, there is no way MLB can go soft on him. He gets his posthumously, as much to make that point as to provide whatever deterrent to anyone else choosing that path in the future.
Comparing Martinez and Ortiz doesn’t make much sense. We know baseball (and the HOF vote) cares quite a bit about postseason accomplishments, and Ortiz had one of the most accomplished postseason careers in MLB history (Martinez had a much shorter and fairly weaker postseason history).
That alone distinguishes the two to the point that it isn’t apples to oranges anymore.
Is he in the HOF? Currently no.
Will he be in the HOF? Yes, he will.
Should he be in the HOF? No.
But, unlike Bonds who also should not be, people like him and so, he will be, yes.
Ortiz appeared on the 2003 list of positive testers. Lawyers did not announce what he tested positive for (it easily could have been something other than steroids or even any major PED) and the testing is known to contain false positives. It is the only PED link of his career, almost all of which occurred during official testing, including no notable physical changes for the player since retiring.
Bonds has a laundry list of indirect evidence against him, most especially as came out in the Balco scandal. A man spent significant time in prison in order to not testify against Bonds in court. Bonds even admitted to using substances that are now known to be major PEDs, though he has denied that he knew what they were. Also notably, his body underwent a significant late-career transformation at an age when such a transformation would not be normal, and also saw his body transform back after the end of his career.
Anyone who compares Ortiz and Bonds on a PED basis is an embarrassing troll. Grow up.
Overwhelming evidence beyond any doubt AND sufficient evidence beyond a reasonable doubt both lead to the same verdict.
three letters – P – E – D
and to add to it, the guy blames the rival team for his test being leaked? you cant do that dude.
I wouldn’t put Ortiz into the HOF but my opinion doesn’t count. His popularity will overshadow any logic and get him in. To me, he’s too similar to Andre Dawson in his offensive numbers. It’s good but not really HOF standard. Yet I feel that there is an overwhelming amount of writers who manloves the guy so much that they won’t put any type of serious debate on him to keep him out of there. I wouldn’t at all be surprised if he gets in as a first year inductee. There is no way he’s not a HOFmer.
I think you have a clear bias against Ortiz, considering…
1) Comparing him to Dawson as a hitter, despite Dawson’s career 119 OPS+. Ortiz had a 141 career OPS+. Citing the two as similar as hitters despite that massive difference is not a good look.
2) Dawson is a HOFer, so I’m not sure why comparing him is supposed to be a bad thing. Of note, the Hall Of Fame metrics listed on Baseball Reference like Ortiz quite a bit more for the HOF than they do Dawson.
3) It maybe shouldn’t be forgotten that Ortiz put up a .947 OPS over 85 (more than half a season!) career postseason games. Dawson played 15 postseason games with a .475 OPS.
The writers “love” Ortiz because guys like Dawson are deserving bottom-level HOFers, and Ortiz had a significantly better career than that talented guy.
No
100% no question
Yes. Given some of the names who have gotten in recently, I think he should.
If you go with the PED issues, no. But other than that yes. Defensive issues or not, his offensive stats are too good to ignore
Edgar Martinez got in…Papi should’ve a relative lock
Edgar wasn’t a cheater
Yes yes yes
Why is this even a question.
The basic thinking:
1) Removing any PED talk, Ortiz should be in the HOF without question. His bat is HOF worthy, and while DH can and should be a negative factor for him his postseason accomplishments should make up for that…and his status as a franchise icon and face of baseball (especially Dominican baseball) should too.
2) If we could finally get to the bottom of the PED situation in 2003 and find that he did use a major PED, that could and should factor in. The informed debate could finally begin.
3) This is the key part that many don’t bother to be informed about…we don’t actually know that he took PEDs (or that he didn’t). For the 2003 positive test, to quote the NYT article “The lawyers did not identify which drugs were detected”, and that 2003 test contained known, reported false positives in it. There is also a question of what might have been tested beyond steroids…amphetamines, perhaps? That wouldn’t be remotely the same as steroids or HGH. It must also be remembered that the 2003 test was not conducted with anything like the standards of the league’s true testing that began in 2004, precisely because the 2003 test was meant to provide general numbers, not catch PED users. Hence the false positives.
2004-2016 is a long time to go without a single positive test to take the 2003 reported positive result and brand a guy a HOF-ineligible PED user. Again, if we could actually find out the full details of the test result, that would allow for a more informed discussion, but using an “innocent until proven guilty” mindset (and accepting that the 2003 test alone is not adequate to even approach “proven” guilty) we should proceed as if he is innocent until shown otherwise.
He absolutely would’ve been a lock had he not been a cheater. I think he’ll get in eventually but he absolutely should not get in.
Barry Bonds is not in the Hall because of PEDs. David Ortiz is no Barry Bonds and he’s tied to PEDs. Ortiz should not be in the Hall before Bonds. That’s ridiculous.
JuicerCheaterSteriodsEater
absolutely a HFer
It’s not about the suspected steroids. He wouldn’t be a HOFer even if he wasn’t suspected of anything. If you only hit, you’re a great player. Maybe one of the greatest hitters in recent history. But if you can’t contribute in the field, you’re not a HOFer.
You can’t disregard a complete lack of contributions in half of the game and be considered on that level. To me, a full time DH shouldn’t be a HOFer.
So if Babe Ruth hadn’t been in the field, even he shouldn’t have made it? I understand wanting to keep a higher threshold of greatness at the plate for a full-time DH, but I think at some point (and I’m not saying Ortiz is that point), someone has to be good enough that they’re let in regardless of being a DH.
Sure, there’s a point where someone changes the game like Ruth did and can’t field a lick. In today’s game, I don’t see that happening and Ortiz certainly didn’t do that. Great hitter, no doubt, but that’s all he did.
The level of greatness for a DH to be a HOFer should be someone at that generational level, and Ortiz didn’t approach that.
If HOF worthiness is judged on nothing but fantasy stats, he’s a lock. If defense actually counts, he wasn’t a great enough hitter overcome a zero in the field..
But Babe Ruth played defense, along with being a successful pitcher. So using him in your comparison is ignorant.
I’m not the one who used him. I never mentioned him in my post. The guy who responded to me did and used him as a “what-if” scenario, and I simply said sure, if a guy could hit like Babe Ruth and not play defense, he could be a HOFer. That obviously wasn’t the case with Ruth.
The thing is, there hasn’t been anyone like that yet and I don’t expect there to be many, if any, ever. David Ortiz was a great hitter. But not so great that he should get HOF consideration despite not adding a shred of value as a defender.
How is it ignorant to use him as an example? Ruth isn’t known for his defense (or really even for being a great pitcher). He’s known for his bat. It’s fair to ask if we isolate that part of his game whether he should be in the HoF, given his initial assertion.
Ruth was very much known as a great pitcher!!!
He was a great pitcher, but it’s not what he’s known for. He’s the Sultan of Swat, not the King of K’s or Emperor of ERA. When we think of Ruth, most of us go immediately to how great a hitter he was. That’s all I’m saying.
I was responding to the guy who replied to you. You couldn’t figure that out?
Well, since his response even started with “So if Babe Ruth hadn’t been in the field…” I assumed you were speaking to me because his point was pretty clear. He wasn’t compared Ortiz to Ruth. He was hypothetically asking if Ruth would be a HOFer IF HE HADN’T PLAYED IN THE FIELD.
In the end, sure, if there’s eventually a hitter who changes the entire game and hits more homers than entire teams and revolutionizes how people hit, I’m sure that player could still be a HOFer even if he never plays an inning in the field. That’s what it should take for a DH to make it.
But, David Ortiz was just a great hitter, not a game changer and not a generational talent. Just one of many great hitters in that period before you even consider the steroid stuff. Without any defensive value, it’s not a HOF career.
He’s probably going to get it in because the media loves him and hitting numbers are sexier than fielding metrics in part because of fantasy baseball. But he was half of a ballplayer…. a great half, but still only half.
I voted no. The steroids issue is a big deal to me. I get that before ‘roids, it was amphetamines and going back to the turn of last century, there were spitballers. Cheating in baseball has been around since practically the beginning. That said, if we keep condoning cheating with arguments of, “People in the past got away with a different form of it,” or, “Everyone was doing it,” we implicitly condone cheating as long as the players aren’t caught at the time. But then people come up with a new drug or a new way to cheat and we’re all incensed that they cheapened our beloved game. Which is it? We can’t have it both ways.
SO I GOT DRUNK IN H/S AND NEVER AGAIN MAKES ME A ALCOHOLIC?
People don’t go from normal to freakin’ Barry Bonds huge from one shot. Someone applies a cream recommended by their trainer and foolishly didn’t require to know what was in it first, that can be overlooked if they stop immediately once they know and never do it again. Bonds, ARod, Clemens – they didn’t make one-time innocent mistakes.
He is a 100% guarantee for Cooperstown. All the “experts” who think otherwise should re-evaluate there job titles as Ballot voters
David Ortiz is a hall of famer, but bonds,McGuire,arod,Clemens,Sosa,palmerio, should go in before David.
Fine if he did take flint stone chewables in 03…….. ok 03…. For one minute if i you think he could go 13 more very productive years without failing a test….come on!!!!!quite obviously they were still testing….. Manny/ A rod etc First Ballot Yes (with Schilling would be great).His Stats……. let alone single handling winning the 13 series is more than enough… No defense? Ozzie Smith Had no offense(best ever defensively) but MOST of career a liability with bat, Frank Thomas wasn’t Kieth Hernandez around 1st either,I get it I too would want my players to play the field unless i felt they were so poor or i had a BETTER player defensively. Funny i don’t remember him every saving or costing runs in the W/S with his glove HOW BOUT HIS BAT THOUGH????
there are many players that should not be in the HOF……at this point, Cooperstown is just another tourist trap to show off players who knew how to hit or throw a baseball……..
I think when HOF let in Harold Baines & Lee Smith in…….it became a joke
Baines & Smith are nice guys, but not HOF ‘ers
Baines for sure… Relievers is a tough one MO dominated for so long its really hard to say who should be 2 or 3 but i agree it should not be 15/16i
Even as a White Sox fan, I agree on Baines. He had some decent counting numbers, but those were more a factor of longevity than dominance. He was very consistently good, but never dominant.
I think I have to disagree on Lee, though, in part because he was one of the guys who brought the closer’s role to prominence. It was a pretty big shift to view a strong bullpen and closer as integral to a team’s success. Also, even as a reliever, he finished 2nd in CYA voting one year and 4th the next year, and even got MVP votes in 4 years. He was one of the first truly dominant relievers. Even though his case isn’t overwhelming like Rivera or Hoffman, you could make a case that he’s the 3rd best (eligible) reliever of all time.
So sick of the Big Papi PED talk. Keep in mind that back in 2003, players volunteered to give samples; they were not required to do so by the league. No report ever came out saying exactly what any of the 103+ players in the Mitchell report tested positive for. MLB also didn’t do second sample testing back then like they did once they put an official testing policy in place starting in the 2004 season. What solidifies it for me is that Big Papi was tested multiple times per year once official PED testing was added to MLB and from 2004 – 2016, he never once failed a test. 2004 was the first of his 3 World Series titles which we can say without a doubt that he played clean in and Big Papi’s real impact on the Red Sox and MLB didn’t start until 2004 anyways. So to me, he is first ballot hall of famer. The rest of the people being used here (Bonds, Clemens, McGuire, Sosa, etc..) were all proven PED users outside of the Mitchell report; Ortiz was not. He played tough, he was clutch and he was clean throughout the entire era of MLB PED testing (which again started in 2004). One of the best playoff performers of all time too. Send this man to Cooperstown where he belongs and stop dragging his name through the mud like those other bums.
Sorry: both Manny & David Ortiz tested positive. They covered up Ortiz’s results.
Papi did not test positive during official MLB Drug Testing (which started in 2004). Between only having one sample to test in the 2003 ‘voluntary’ tests (MLBPA agreed to it under the promise of it being fully anonymous which MLB defaulted on) and the fact of both known false positives and testing for a multitude of substances (not just steroids) during the 2003 testing, there is no way to validate any of these results. The fact that Ortiz was tested well over 50 times during his career (he claims it was closer to 100) and never failed a test from 2004-2016 is more than good enough for me. And that he was never tied to BALCO and the other drug companies that brought down Bonds, Sosa, etc..gives zero proof of any wrong doing. Papi was a bigger than life personality and haters relish in character assassination. Many Yankees fans are still sour about the 2004 ALCS so they continually tryto lump him in with known offenders and that’s just not right. He was one of the best clutch hitters of all time, especially in the playoffs and the fact that he remained highly productive into his late 30’s despite nagging foot injuries just shows how special of a player he was and that he deserves a place in the Hall.
He didn’t play the field. Any stat comparisons have to account for that confound. So, yeah I guess I’m in the camp that says if you don’t have to hone your defensive skills things the offense numbers should be better. No HOF for him.
How could the voters who don’t vote for Bonds, McGwire & Clemens justify voting for Ortiz?
Because they all got caught cheating (except for Ortiz). Between Balco, personal testimony and other PED providers, there was proof beyond a reasonable doubt all of those guys cheated. Ortiz was never involved in any of that. Also, the Mitchell report did not specify what every person tested positive for. Ortiz maintains to this day the only thing he ever put in his body were supplements (pills) from GNC and he had no idea any of the ingredients would end up on a banned list. (Keep in mind there was no banned list in 2003 when they did the first round of ‘voluntary’’ testing). Given that he was never linked to any of the Balco type scandals, never tested positive in 80+ tests since 2004, and no report was ever generated on what his one sample tested positive for in 2003, I just can’t label him as a cheater and PED user like these other guys were caught buying and using. Yes I’m a Red Sox fan but not a fan of cheating. Manny Ramirez got what he deserved and will never sniff (nor should he) the Hall of Fame. Papi should absolutely be enshrined.
Ortiz was caught (along with Manny Ramirez) while playing for Boston. Boston made Manny the scapegoat and covered up the stink
Not true. That was yet another rumor that was dispelled. Haters are going to hate. Put the man in the Hall. He carried MLB baseball from 2004-2013 on his back.
Ortiz is absolutely is a Hall of Famer, and it’s really not up for debate.
I’m not in favor of keeping anybody out for PEDs, but in Ortiz’a case in particular, the situation is too inconclusive to be relevant.
As for his not playing defense, that’s even less relevant. The DH is a legitimate position in baseball. The feelings of the purist who don’t like it don’t matter. The DH isn’t going away. It’s a position as important, as relevant, and as potentially impactful as any other.
And David Ortiz is the best ever to play the position. His regular season numbers are absolutely hall of fame worthy. His post season numbers are off the charts. The Red Sox would have at least one and probably two fewer championships without him. That’s what a hall of famers is.
And of your reason for opposing him is because you still haven’t gotten over the 2004 ALCS, just please shut up.
David Ortiz is synonymous with baseball. He is one of the best hitters of all time and was one of the best hitters in an era where PED testing was rampant. When you’re talking about guys like Barry Bonds, you’re talking about players who played during a different era. Bonds started his full career in 1987. Ortiz had arguably his first full season with the Twins in 2002, at the beginning of the BALCO investigation. Bonds played 2 seasons in the MLB testing period. Ortiz played 11.
If he is then so us Bonds and Clemens and Maguire! Simple as that!
McGuire! Sorry spell check. One last point, if steroids didn’t exist I would say he is a lock but I can’t help feel that steroids impacted his career tremendously being a one dimensional player that he was.
Uhhhhhggg McGwire!!!
The DH has been in use in the AL for 47 years now. We’re well past them point of saying someone who put up the career batting numbers that guys like Ortiz and Edgar Martinez did shouldn’t be considered because they didn’t play a defensive position. They played a valid position in the structure of the game, and did so at an elite level. Both are HOF players.
Big Papi could hit…but that’s it. He barely played in the field after his 1st few years. No speed. No defense. No arm. The DH is 1/2 of a ball player. Honestly, putting him in the Hall with guys who played every day in the field, Aaron, Banks, Mantle isn’t comparable. They were waaaaay waaaaay better baseball players.
I would put Papi in the Almost HOF’er category.
How is this even a question? Of course he is and he should knock Harold Baines out on his way
As a Twins fan it of course sickens me to think what might have been, but not many people mention Mariners fans and the Dave Hollins trade.
David Ortiz is a first ballot HOF… Let’s remember Harold Baines has a plaque in Cooperstown.
The Orioles visiting team dugout phone votes a hard NO.
Probably will. He is the 3rd best DH.
DH only almost discounts him alone. Add the steroids and it’s a hard pass. Fred McGriff should be in before he even gets a sniff.
I’m done with PED arguments. A-Rod, Rafael Palmiero, etc. are HOFers. Ivan Rodriguez is already in. FP Santangelo and Matt Lawton also took PEDs, why aren’t they HOFers? Because they couldn’t hit. Let them in. All of them. Clemens is a HOFer because he could pitch. Jason Grimsley took juice, he doesn’t have HOF numbers because he sucked with or without it.
useless bit of trivia:
same day red sox signed ortiz in o3, pudge signed a 1 year “prove it” deal with the marlins (and like ortiz, it ended up paying off very well).
As much as I dislike the Red Sox and everyone associated with them, he’s a HOF’er. His numbers say he is, compared to players already in.
I don’t care about PED’s. They rescued baseball with Sosa and McGwire bashing their way to history. Yes, they make you stronger, but you still have to hit the ball. Just vote them in. No asterisks. True baseball fans and baseball historians will let us now, and future generations of baseball fans who was, who wasn’t, and who is suspected of taking them.
Why would a roided up DH that never played a position belong in the HOF? He literally would have been completely forgotten if he hadn’t gone to Boston and started doing steroids. Guy couldn’t play a position and never could have put up Edgar Martinez-tier numbers without PEDs.
Tell me what Ortiz was ‘caught’ using or caught purchasing? The answer is you can not. For all of the other guys, (Bonds, Clemens, McGuire, Sosa) they know exactly what they purchased and used. In fact Ortiz can’t even find out what he tested positive for because MLB sealed the records. No one has been disqualified from the HOF based just on the leaked Mitchell report. They all made other blatant ‘mistakes‘, where Ortiz did not. Too much anti-Red Sox sentiment here. The guy belongs in the HOF.
No. You Red Sox slurpers want to elevate Ortiz when he, Ramirez, and others were popped at the same time.
There’s no argument: if Barry Bonds is not a Hall of Famer, Big Sloppy doesn’t even get to f****** sniff the street outside Cooperstown.. The way Boston rallies around Ortiz but shuns Manny Ramirez (50x the player and actually HOF worthy) is absolutely disgusting.
Such a dumb statement. Bonds, Clemens and the others were all caught buying and using PEDs outside of the initial Mitchell report. Papi never was. And there is no record of what he even tested positive for. Could have been creatine or another supplement ingredient that was not on any banned list prior to 2004. Papi was proud to have played the game cleanly and deserves to be in the HOF. Manny got caught twice using steroids during the MLB testing period. He doesn’t get in unless Bonds and the other proven cheaters are let in too. Papi is not a proven cheater, so get your facts straight.
Your 100% ignoring that Red Sox players went down for steroids, and that Ortiz was a part of that. Boston covered that up and made Manny the fall guy. I actually lived through that era, so you actually need to check your facts. The bottom line is what’s already been assessed and stated by numerous posters: if the sole reason Barry Bonds is not in the HOF is steroids (and it is), then players with far less pedigree shouldn’t even stand a chance. Because that’s the standard the Hall itself has set. Don’t sit here feed us all this B.S. about Ortiz not being roids just because he wasn’t popped. We KNOW that’s simply not true. And no real baseball fan, who truly values the integrity of the sport, would disagree. One policy for everyone, or no policy at all.
Again, you are wrong about this. Papi never failed a test from 2004-2016; check your facts and avoid the rumor mill.
Yes he’s a Hall of Famer and for those of you pointing out the PEDs, you need to know there are very likely players in the Hall right now who used. Since so many from that era used, do you just keep out the ones that were caught? That doesn’t seem right to me. Piazza is in there. Bagwell is too. IRod. Randy Johnson.
Let’s keep it 100: people hate Barry Bonds because he was unapologetic, didn’t play games with media, and stood his ground. However, he 100% played the game the RIGHT way, and was a clear HOF long before the steroid allegations, Lot’s of people love David Ortiz because he’s the opposite of that: he fits the stereotype of the lovable Latin player, and dismiss the same (credible) steroid claims because he appears more likable. Gary Sheffield hit this dynamic on the head years ago…
First off I’ll say that I think Bonds (and Clemens) should be in the hall of fame. However it seems you are assuming that Bonds pre-1998 or so was clean, and that was possibly not the case. The drug regimen we can be almost certain he was on after that point was pretty significant, but there are inklings that before that he was taking stuff too. He probably didn’t go from 0-100 in 1998. He was probably weening his way up for a while.
Also the credibility of the allegations against bonds and Ortiz are significantly different.
As a person in their late 30’s who lived through that time too, I have no idea what you are talking about, with the “Boston cover-up” probably cause you are making it up or mis-remembering.
Ortiz’s name was on a list of players who failed an unofficial drug test. A few substances being tested for were not technically illegal in the game, and certain natural substances like testosterone, didn’t have base-line comparisons for players. Also certain masking agents, and theraputic drugs (think aderal) that have certain legitimate uses were not quite well aware to the players of what an acceptable level would be, or how to get a theraputic exemption, because they were not going to be penalized.
The players on the list were not notified of the failing, because there was no penalty. There was no b-sample, and the players were not given the opportunity to attempt to rectify potential faulty or mishandled samples, again because this was unofficial and not supposed to be released or punished.
If you want to believe Ortiz took something, that’s fine, even though it would be impossible to figure out what was taken and to what level.
The drama with Manny and the Sox occured a few years later, and should be noted he was involved in a physical altercation with an elderly team staff member. Oh, and Manny failed actual drug tests with the proper precautions in place after that.
We don’t know what Papi tested positive for in 2093 and they would not tell him. So, it may or may not have been steroids.
Question for y’all: Do Ortiz’s well known feet problems give us any clue about whether or not he used steroids? Would steroids lead to feet problems? Would using steroids make it less likely to have feet problems? I’m not sure exactly what his feet problems were, but I don’t recall a player having “foot problems” as bad as him. He said it was like playing on two stumps.
2003 not 2093
Twins were fools for cutting him! He should be elected to the HOF.
I”m conflicted. I really like Big Papi, but I loath the DH and believe that NO player who’s primary “position” was DH should be in the HoF. Period. So I voted NO – but I like I said – I really like the guy.
What is he doing wrong? They have the position in Major League Baseball, American League, called the DH. It’s an official position and he’s doing it the best of almost anybody who ever did it. Top 5 or 10 right? What is he doing that’s not worthy? He’s playing that position and succeeding.
He cheated. Do you see Bonds or Clemens or Sosa or any of the other steroid guys in. No so no he is not. He sucked in Minnesota and they let him go. Came to Boston and did steroids with Manny (also not in) and became what he became. Sorry no thank you.
theweek.com/articles/645685/fraudulent-myth-big-pa…
That guy is a Yankees fan and that was a cheap, character assignation piece. Try this one on for size instead:
google.com/amp/s/www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/when-i…
Big pappy is one of my all time favorite, that grand slam he hit against Detroit in the 2013 ALCS was absolutely amazing
Plain and simple NO… NO he’s not. Let me use his own words against him. David Ortiz said if a player tests positive they shouldn’t be eligible for the HOF and should be heavily suspended. But he will not discuss his 2003 failure. Yes I’m sure everyone remembers the secret test MLB had it’s biggest stars take to see how bad the problem really was? Yes he tested positive. Remember the N.Y. times got a list of players and the results. He was a positive. So should he be a HOF’er?
He tested positive for what?
High and steroids. Look up the Mitchell report.
A summary from the Mitchell report:
there are 87 people mentioned in connection with PEDs in said report and none of them are David Ortiz. We do see names like Kevin Brown, David Justice, Hal Morris, Denny Neagle and a whole host of others.
Might wanna read up on that a little more. He was a positive test in the report. His excuse was only reason his name was released because so many Yankees failed a test. So do a little research.
As a Sox fan I hate to say this but David Ortiz was a DH, and players that only play half of the game shouldnt be in the Hall.. He doesnt get anyway near 300 home runs if he had to play the field.
By your logic then pitchers in the American League shouldn’t get in either. They only “play half the game.”
He tested positive for PEDs so, if Bonds can’t get in (a guy who never tested positive) then Papi can’t get in. Thems the rules you guys made up so you gotta live with them.
Ortiz failed a drug test,what it was is still a ? Barry went from a size 6 1/4 hat to 10 1/2 hit 700 plus hr all after age of 70, Clemens won 250 games and struck out 2500 also after the age of 70 SOOOO if David did take them all the time his CAREER stats should have been 298 avg/762 hrs/1996 rbi and ZERO RINGS…….
Enough with the Pete Rose apologizes!! I grew up in the 70’s and was a big 14 fan.. When it started i too said he should be in the hall!!! But after years and years and years and years and years of lying he finally comes clean on 60 minutes days before his book comes out!!!! Sorry but,. “Charlie Hustle” has different meaning for me when think of Pete Rose now days.
Whether or not any us feel if he should get in or not really doesn’t matter (unless one of you IS bob costas) we don’t have a vote!!! HE WILL GET IN, because many of you are correct he is immensely well liked in the baseball community. Bonds and Clemens are not, its that simple
It still shocks me that Mariano was the first guy to be voted in unanimously, which is pure stupidity. Ken Griffey, Tony Gwynn, Mike Schmidt or Randy Johnson should’ve been it.
Agree with all. Bench,and Aaron also to name a few more.
What does this have to do with Mo?
Do I think he belongs in the HOF, no. Do I think he gets in? Yeah eventually. Not first ballot but 2nd or 3rd. It’s bogus that Bonds and Clemons won’t get in but Ortiz most likely will. Never understood why Ortiz didn’t carry the same cloud
Because Ortiz never tested positive and denied PED use. Of course, he could easily be lying, but without proof of his alleged use and admissions from both Bonds and Clemens in open court before Congress, why should either of them get in?
Biased Yankees fan who loves Ortiz for what he brought to the rivalry in its heyday, and for his speech after Boston won the WS after the marathon bombing. Does he belong in Cooperstown? Absolutely. Will he get in? Not with the PED question mark hanging over him.
It’s a shame, too, because he seems like he’s a good dude and played the game at a high level for most of his career. Whether he did it clean or not will always be a question, at least until the old guard of voters is gone.
You make excellent points. But I think because he is so good with the Press he’s almost an ambassador for the game, for the Red Sox at least. He gets in no problem just not sure when. Probably second or third go-round.
Wow, you all must really miss baseball. Grab a glove and go outside. Life awaits…
He was clutch during the season and had good career numbers.
He should be in on his post season heroics alone. The guy is the most clutch post season player in my lifetime. He even made the great play to nail
youtube.com/watch?v=QlTZgoFUomQ
He even made the quick decision to catch Suppan in his confusion which was sharp for a guy who barely played the field that year.
youtube.com/watch?v=u83_7cC0fLQ
funny thing is, same day sox signed ortiz in 03, another guy signed a 1 year deal that ended up paying off huge for both him and his team:
pudge signed with the marlins, helped them win a world series, then got a huge payoff from the tigers
Ortiz was good, but he’ll need to sweat his way through the voting each year like Edgar Martinez did. Edgar had more time in the field than Ortiz. He also had higher career WAR and a higher score in Jay Jaffe’s JAWS rating in assessing Hall worthiness. It took Martinez all ten years to make it into the Hall of Fame. Why? Because he never played in a World Series and wasn’t a Red Sox darling. He did, however, hit “the Double” that arguably saved Seattle baseball in 1995.
i’m content to let the writers shoot it out over Ortiz’s Hall-worthiness, but if there is any consistency in the voting, this shouldn’t be a coronation. Let him work up a sweat.
Ortiz is DEFINITELY a hall of famer. All of the classless, scumbag yankee fans showing their stupidity on here as usual.
Absolutely
DH is a position. He should go in as a DH.
If he is considered a first baseman then I say no.
What’s the criteria here? If it’s career WAR, players like Will Clark, John Olerud and Keith Hernandez had higher totals but didn’t get into the hall. If it’s likeability, then I suppose he’s in!
How the hell is this even a question or thread. Duh. He’s a 1st ballot. Period
1st Ballot HOF for his Boston Strong Speech. One of the greatest moments I have seen in sports!
Yes he is! He is Mr. Clutch!
If you’re a DH I don’t consider you a major league baseball player you’re just a hitter. I hope those with a vote think this way. Positive test on steroids and a career DH please don’t let him into the Hall
Of course he’ll get in because he was a reporter’s darling, whereas Barry Bonds wasn’t. That’s all this is about. Has nothing to do with PEDs. It’s reporters and beat writers’ egos.
Bonds should be in. Never proven he did PEDs. Best player of his generation, and perhaps of all-time. Large Poppy LIED and then admitted to using drugs. But I guarantee you he will get in with 80+%. Total double standard.
Never proven??? Can you see???His hat size went from size 6 to 12!!! There is no weightlifting/training that can PRODUCE A PUMPKIN HEAD……….
He’ll get in, as he should, but it won’t be first ballot.
Hellllllllzzzzzz no!
MR. CLUTCH
Walkoff hits:
Postseason hits: 3, rank #1
He is the only player in history to do this (5 players have done it twice, 123 have done it once)
Postseason home runs: 2, rank #1 (tied with Bernie Williams)
Regular season home runs: 11, rank #4
Regular season hits: 23, rank #2
Go Ahead and Game Tying Hits:
Postseason hits to go ahead or tie: 21, rank #1?
I couldn’t find anyone with more, but this is not an easily researched number. so I went through play-by-play for the last 10 non-pitchers to enter the hall of fame and the (arguably) top 10 hitters I could think of since ‘50s. I am not sure if this is statistically legitimate, but I also included a projection to 295 at bats (the number that Ortiz has) for each of the players, since opportunity varied so much.
No hall because of roids and obesity.
He’ll get in the HOF.