Feb. 9: Archer has passed his physical, and the deal is official, tweets Marc Topkin of the Tampa Bay Times. A formal announcement and a (re)introductory Zoom call will both come later today. The team won’t need to make an additional 40-man move to create roster space after trading Aaron Slegers to the Angels last night.
Feb. 2: Free-agent right-hander Chris Archer is returning to the Rays, Ken Rosenthal of The Athletic reports. It’s a one-year, $6.5MM contract, per Jeff Passan of ESPN. The deal is pending a physical. Archer is a client of VC Sports Group.
A 2006 fifth-round pick who opened his career with the Indians and Cubs organizations, Archer first joined the Rays in a significant trade with Chicago in January 2011. Archer was a highly regarded prospect at the time who wound up matching the hype in Tampa Bay, where he debuted in 2012 and was an eminently valuable member of its rotation for several years. Through 2018, the last year of his initial run with the franchise, Archer posted a 3.69 ERA/3.52 SIERA with a 25.8 percent strikeout rate and a 7.7 percent walk rate in 1,063 innings and 177 starts.
Despite the success Archer enjoyed as a Ray, the club decided to move on from him when his team control was dwindling before the 2018 trade deadline. That proved to be another brilliant trade by the Rays, who received two righties – Tyler Glasnow and Shane Baz – as well as outfielder Austin Meadows from the Pirates in exchange for Archer. Glasnow and Meadows have since turned into major league building blocks for the Rays, while FanGraphs’ Eric Longenhagen ranked Baz as their seventh-best prospect in a deep farm system last month.
The Archer trade was a disaster for Pittsburgh, meanwhile, as it lost three quality pieces for a player who disappointed in its uniform. The Pirates encouraged Archer to lean on his sinker, which did not work, as Steve Adams of MLBTR noted last offseason. Archer’s production dipped in the wake of the trade and got fell even more in 2019, when he registered career worsts in ERA (5.19), SIERA (4.38) and home run-to-fly ball percentage (20.2) in 119 2/3 innings. The hope was that Archer would bounce back last year, but he instead missed the season after undergoing thoracic outlet syndrome surgery in June. The Pirates then declined his $11MM club option for 2021 in favor of a $250K buyout.
Considering Archer’s recent performance and the severity of his procedure, the Rays are taking a big risk that he will return to being a viable starter. But it does look like a coup for the reigning American League champions that they’ve now reunited with the player they received such a massive return for just a couple of years ago. If healthy, the 32-year-old Archer may be able to help replace Blake Snell and Charlie Morton, whom the Rays’ rotation has lost since last season ended. He’s the second reclamation project the Rays’ starting staff has taken on in free agency, joining $3MM signing Michael Wacha.
Photo courtesy of USA Today Sports Images.
Yuck
Finally, I wanted the Rays to re-sign Archer. The Rays needed pitching and by adding Archer the starting rotation is a bit better.
@Francys01- yes a very nice signing. I really hope the Devil Rays enjoy 3rd place this season, unless a cheap stud comes along all of a sudden. Best of luck with that happening.
Well, you say that, but somehow they seem to make some of the best moves in baseball, year after year…. with way less to spend than the Yankees.
Everyone underestimates the Rays every year. They are one of the best teams in depth, their farm system is stacked and it seems they never miss on trades. They have the best player in the minors and can trade a ton of that depth for a quality arm. I also do t see them third in the division. The Jays haven’t done enough unseat the AL Champs.
Someone still salty
hey, remember when mike brousseau (an undrafted free agent) ended your season against the highest paid closer in baseball? Rays aren’t going anywhere.
Coming from a fan of a team with a rotation patched together with duct tape, those are big words.
I just remember Brousseau in Game 6.
I’m not even a Rays fan, but if they relocated to my hometown I would change allegiance in a heartbeat.
I have learned over the years to never judge the Rays Offseason until the final game of the year is played. Rays are going to land 1st place because guys come out of nowhere to perform great.
Haven’t the Rays done that like…5 times now?
“Unless some cheap stud comes along all of a sudden” which only happens to the Rays every year *eyeroll*
Loogathis marmaluke picking on the savvy Rays. Get outta here with your overpaying behind. We’ll make it 2/2 in series where we eliminate the Stankees.
The reality is, they got worse. They replaced Snell and Morton with Michael Wacha and Chris Archer (LOL). I get that the Rays don’t have any money (ever), but these type moves ain’t winning the AL East. If Cash doesn’t trust a dealing Blake Snell a third time through a lineup, these jokers shouldn’t be trusted with the second trip.
@ CubsFan108 2
The Rays finished 1st just once in the last 10 years. They’ve finished 3rd or lower like five times.
The Rays and Yankees have won 90 games the same number of times in the last decade. The previous decade was the Rays FIRST IN EXISTENCE
to hate on the Rays is a joke. They’ve gone toe to toe with NYY more often than Boston recently, with 1/3 the payroll
If there was a salary cap in baseball, the title would be in Tampa more times than not because of how the front office is run.
I wish we had more fans but allegiances of snowbirds from New York Boston Etc really make that difficult and therefore we have less money coming in.
Really? In the last ten years the Red Sox have won two World Series, the Yankees and (Devil) Rays none. So much for your toe to toe.
Rays will be looking very good in the next year to 4 years. Their farm system will soon be promoting many prospects to the big league roster & that will allow the team to trade some of their existing big league players for compensatory picks & other prospects. A few of the Rays players did not have good 2020 seasons compared to what they did in 2019.
Yeah if only they had a full season of Arozarena, an upcoming stud in Franco, and a top pitching prospect like Patino.
@ Francys01–you have Archer to the Rays in the FA contest? 😉
Even better they can send him to Puttsburg at the trade deadline for 3 more prospects.
And you are not a clever person. You putts
I’m surprised to see the dollar amount for someone coming off Thoracic Outlet Syndrome Surgery.
I was surprised to see the dollar amount for someone named Chris Archer.
I never understood the hype of this guy. I used to cringe every time he was linked to the Dodgers in some sort of trade.
I wish him luck all the same.
What is yuck is angels trading for Cobb when they could have archer for same price. Inept franchise
What’s the difference? They’re both awful pitchers.
The difference is that Cobb is still worse than Archer, they owe Cobb more money, and they gave up a decent prospect to get him
With Archer coming off of TOS surgery, I got to say Cobb is the better pitcher.
Joe, who really knows?
Duck Duck Go Search
“There’s actually a return-to-play protocol for MLB pitchers following TOS surgery. It’s about 3-4 days in the hospital, followed by 3-4 weeks of therapy, light tossing at 6 weeks, and all-clear around 12 weeks. ”
I wouldn’t bet on either pitcher, but with the Angels and Rays track record, I’d bet on the Rays making the right call before I’d bet on the Angels making the right call.
True except Archer has been a worse pitcher the last couple of years (+TOS), they’re paying Cobb less (Orioles picking up most of the contract) and Jam Jones is no longer a decent prospect. Other than that you’re spot on.
I don’t doubt I’m in the minority but I still think Cobb is a decent back end of the rotation pitcher. If he can stay healthy, the move away from the ALE will do him a world of good.
I’m much less sold on Archer as he’s been trending the wrong way for several years now.
What’s a decent back end of the rotation starter?
If it’s pitch every time your turn comes around, average over 5 innings, and keep your ERA below 4.5, he might be. Especially if he can keep the ball in the park.
The Rays just don’t toss away $6.5 million. I’m sure that they did their homework. Risk? Sure but I di trust the Rays scouting dept.
Maybe you’re forgetting the Pirates record of messing with pitchers lately. Cole for instance. Watch Trevor Williams win at least 10 now. Archer still has a healthy arm. Cobb’s been losing it for a few years now. The Rays would never invest those $$$ without a Drs ok.
The angels have up a decent prospect for their mediocre pitcher. The Rays gained 3 prospects then got their mediocre pitcher for nearly the exact same dollar value
Agree
Throwin’ it back! Archer verrry likely wouldn’t go to the Angels at the same price. Rays are World Series-caliber.
After losing Snell and Morton and essentially doing nothing to replace them, the Rays are far from World Series caliber
Instead of Snell and Morton, they have Wacha and Archer. Thats a step backwards
They might not look World Series caliber in 2021 on paper yet, but they’ll be in that conversation for years to come
Snell had one good year in which people are using to evaluate his talent. If you look at his stats, he average 4.2 innings a start and struggled the third time around in the batting order. I think Wacha and Archer can step into that slot and not lose a lot. Morton is a different story. He is hard to replace.
snell hasn’t done much since 2018 and morton is now 36 years old they didn’t lose much
The Rays are very big into analytics so they don’t let their SPs go a third time through a lineup too often. Also Snell and Morton were the Rays only reliable SPs in the postseason last year. The Rays should have no issue making it back to the postseason this year but unless they trade for a reliable veteran SP by the deadline they won’t be going too far
Wasnt morton hurt half of 2020? And he’s 36? Why is he suddenly impossible to replace?
@frankjovine- I think the Halo’s got a lot more to worry about then the Cobb trade right now. Who says no?
I agree, didn’t want to pay snell 11 million but prefer to pay archer 6.5 Mill. its a crazy world.
I think acquiring Patino adds a little bit more into the equation you just drew up. It’s archer, Patino, and Wacha for less than Snell alone. No idea if that’ll work out or not but Morton wasn’t very good last year. That may not be a big loss. Snell obviously will.
@jbig – and they’re high on McLanahan and Fleming, both lefties. The equation right now is if they can get 5 or 6 innings out of a starter with movement: heat or placement or both, they’re okay with that. After that, they’ll of course rely on the bullpen with 3 or 4 relievers to get 9 or 12 outs, whomever they throw out there.
It was more about the prospects than the 11 million.
We say yuck to lots of their deals and end up eating crow. Perhaps the Pirates just used him wrong like the Yanks and Gray
I get the Rays is where he shined.. But after years of decline and TOS, which most dont even come back from, the frugal Rays giving him that seems off.
If you haven’t noticed they like to buy low sell high. 5.19ERA with the Pirates in 2019 vs his career 3.86 he was known for in TB isn’t far off. He’s had a year off, he’s in his early 30s barely $6.5M is probably including incentives if he can get strikeouts and pitch a lot of innings again.. Smart move smart team.
I have noticed.. Theres 0 chance to think theres upside anymore.. and that was before ToS.. seems ridiculous from a team that doesnt spend.
There is a lot of reason to think there is upside. Look at his pitch usage in Pittsburgh. Less 4 seamers, more 2 seamers. Same issue Cole had. The Pirates need to get out of pitchers way and let them pitch. If Archer scraps the 2 seamer he could go back to being a pretty good but not great pitcher.
He’s had one bad season, and suddenly there 0 chance there’s any upside in him? He’s perfectly capable, perhaps even likely to return to the steady 4th starter type he’d become when the Rays traded him.
@ Steve Nebraska – The Bucs had a regime under former manager Clint Hurdle.. Their previous two pitching coaches were Joe Kerrigan and Ray Searage. They loved tinkering their pitchers. It was always either a news story or a topic of discussion.
They now have this new pitching coach, Oscar Marin, under a 2nd year manager Derek Shelton.
Then trading away Taillon and Musgrove. Change in pitching philosophy?
Matt Harvey was good at one time too. Same injury. Probably same result. TOS ends careers. This was not a good free agent pick up.
There’s a difference between buying low and buying a guy coming off a surgery that ends/significantly diminishes most guys careers.
Especially after the fact hes declined each year heavily since 2017
@Hosmer for HOF- are you serious? Nuttin like being a die hard Devil Rays fan. You trade Snell and let Morton go to the Braves. Sign Wacha and Archer and now your going back to the World Series? Yes a great off-season.
How long has it been since the Yankees went to the world series?
Yank4Life… Consider they know Snell/Morton as well or better than anyone. Snell was less than stellar last season and Morton.. Well he’s at the end or close to it. And then remember you cannot compare how the Yankees do business with the way the Rays do. It’s apples to oranges. Honestly… Has any team with that shoestring of a payroll done more with it than Tampa?
And I wonder how much more the The Yankees spend than the Rays on average every year. They are a joke. MLB is a joke. Spend more and more money on players that end up leading to not winning even close to enough to justify the spending.
Steve Nebraska : Answer is (-)1 years
@ hosmer
If by “smart move” you mean insanely stupid, then yes I agree. Ahahahaha!
Where he shined?! I must’ve missed that part.
Ahahahaha!
I guess youre 3 years old then.
I guess you’ve shot your wadz. Ahahahaha!
Unless they know something the rest of baseball doesn’t. Remember Aronzarena?
Goes back to the organization that taught him how to hit players
Sensitive girl
I guess I am not really surprised? But what I am surprised at is Rays spending money… $6.5 million of it!!!
Yeah, where did they get that cash?
I guess they got it from Kevin? Haha, get it? Ok, I’ll see myself out…
If the Rays get anything of value out of this contract or they flip him at the deadline, the Pirates trade has to officially be the most lopsided of all time.
Still a lot of time to give it that title now. Will have to see how the 3 guys traded by the Pirates actually turn out.
2 of the 3 guys traded by the Pirates – Glasgow and Meadows – have already solidified themselves in the upper echelon of the league
1) He’s not traded
2) They and Cole came up with the Pirates whereas Archer came up with the Rays, and they traded him. He’s only available for them to sign because of how poorly he’s pitched coupled with his downward trend.
To compare Archer to two of the Pirates’ originals is disingenuous at best.
To be honest, Glasnow started well then started looking like the guy he was in Pittsburgh after he came back from injury. Meadows had a great 2 months to start 2019. Not that solidified yet. They still may do that but a few months does not solidify anything. Still rooting for them but as of the moment, they are not there yet.
Upper echelon? Not so fast.
Dcrising – are you serious? Upper echelon for Glasnow & Meadows. Now Glasnow was his old self in the WS, wasn’t he; control problems, HR balls; same guy the Pirates gave up on years ago. Meadows; he simply a nice player; who if I remember, didn’t start but PH in about 3 of the WS games & similarly in the ALCS. Some upper echelon, I’d say nice, platoon player who might not be that w/o the DH. Baz has been in the minors for about 6 years now; if he’s so great…why? I’m not sure he’s reached AAA yet. Rays won the trade, no doubt, but really the 3 prospects aren’t all that much. They’d probably play now that the Pirates are in full tear down mode, but at the time; none could crack the lineup.
Have you not paid attn to MLB the last two years?
Heck, Baz may be the best of them all!
I think he’s agreeing that it’s very lopsided. But to give it the title of most lopsided trade of all time, still needs more time. Which I agree with.
@ andrewgauldin — Thank you. I am a Pirates fan. Hated to see both Glasnow and Meadows go. Contrary to what @Sideline Redwine says, I have been paying attention as kept following these two guys since they were traded. They are both still very young in their careers. Meadows never hit much for power at any level as a pro until 2019, the juiced ball season. I you check out his game logs, he had a monster first 1/3 of the season. Dropped off the middle 1/3 and rebounded to an average final 3rd which gave him a decent line for the year. 2020 was ok for him. Glasnow went from ugly oi the mound in Pittsburgh to great to start 2019. got hurt and was ok but not the same results when he came back. Was average last season.
Way to soon to proclaim how great or how bad either may be. Baz has not came close to the bigs yet. Not a great deal by any means but all 3 could be out of the league in a couple of years or be superstars by then too. No way to forecast either by their results so far.. Hope the are stars and they we can all agree is in the top 5 of the worst deals ever.
Agreed. Glasnow has only ever once thrown more than 100 innings at the big league level since 2016. Meadows went from a speedy defensive first CF to a bat first LF. He has the potential to be a great player too, but he followed up a 143 wRC+ season with an 87 wRC+ in 2020, albiet in just 152 plate appearance. Small sample size, but neither have been able to replicate great numbers over the course of a full season and both have had their fair share of injuries through their first few years. Meadow’s 2019 season was pretty compareable to Josh Bell’s 2019 season. Outstanding start, struggled in the summer months, ended on a strong note. Baz has a ton of talent too, but could end up in the pen. Still could be a dominant force there too.
Trade was bad but it wasn’t bad from the pirates perspective. No idea why they would go after Archer but all they gave up was a 4th outfielder, a reliever with control problems and a 1st round bust.
Right. An *All-Star outfielder with team control, a starter with Cy Young quality stuff and a 1st round project that we’ll flip into a 3rd starter.
Just because the Pirates can’t extract these players’ potential, doesn’t mean this wasn’t one of the most lopsided trades in recent history..
Well I guess if anybody can fix him it’s the Rays, but it’s still a questionable amount of $$$
I liked Archer as a gamble, but didn’t think it would cost over 5 million.
Pittsburgh sports talk radio already laughing about this. I actually thought the Pirates might resign him with a contract with a lot of incentive money. Maybe that is what the Rays did and has to hit a lot of incentives to actually get to $6.5 mil.
Pittsburgh sports people should laugh at themselves first. All those second-rate prospects they got for their best players? Lol maybe you can compete in 2030. Arch will go to TB and be successful…and Glas, Meadows, and Baz will contribute going forward.
Second rate prospects? I think the prospects the Pirates got were really good. Hudson Head would have been drafted in the first round had he not been commited to playing football in HS. He’s a player with five-tool potential and did well in his short taste of professional ball in 2019. Miguel Yajure is a pitcher who’s gotten better at every level he’s pitched at so far and is seen as a 50-FV grade pitcher. This team is set to see their window open in 2023. The other pieces they got for Taillon and Musgrove have a decent amoutn of talent. They have one of the best farm systems in all of baseball, and one of the most improved. Not to mention Quinn Priester, who’s seen as a guy who could be one of baseball’s next best prospects, Oneil Cruz who’s one of the most powerful shortstop prospects in baseball, Ke’Bryan Hayes, arguably the best 3B prospect, Nick Gonzales, another top player at his position (that being 2B), and a whole lot of young pitching that’s seen as pretty decent in Brennan Malone (part of the Marte deal, 2019 1st round pick), Tahnaj Thomas (part of the Erik Gonzalez trade), Cody Bolton, Eddy Yean (part of the Bell deal) and Carmen Mlodzinski (2020 first round pick). That’s also not mentioning highly athletic players Liover Peguero and Travis Swaggerty, who are both top 100 prospects according to FanGraphs.
Great analysis. Very much looking forward to 2022-2023 seasons to see these guys start5 coming upt Few other guys like Bae in the system who was signed after the Braves got busted for not being sighing international prospects by the rules.
@sideline redwine too bad MLBTR hasn’t banned you or gave us the thumbs down button again. It would be nice to mute you 😉
Paul Zeise is a dunce who doesn’t even listen to himself talk. Which is actually smart. Just FTR.
LOL! Listening to Ziese is like someone trying to tell you something but they are too busy watching something on TV while making dinner and then eating it. Actually, that is what he is probably doing these days when he is doing his show from home due to COVID-19. I will try to listen for a couple of minutes on my drive home but he annoys me too much. Extremely long breaks sometimes coming out of the sports updates every 20 mins. Either long bathroom breaks or too busy watching a basketball game on his TV.
Having a really tough time explaining the dollars on this one. Rays were reportedly in on Kluber and Taillon before the Yanks nabbed them, so perhaps they simply refused to be outbid here? Still seems wild.
I can’t believe the Rays are giving Archer that much. Heck I can’t believe Archer didn’t have to settle for a minor league contract.
I thought that the Bucs were going to resign him with a bunch of incentives involved without much risk. Surprised at the size of the deal as well. Maybe it is incentive laden to get to the $6.5 million.
Rays fleeced the Pirates and got him back
The Chris Archer Boomerang.
i rather have the angels sign him than trading for cobb.
Viz, he hasn’t been good in a long while, you have wonder why he isn’t an Angel.
He’s at least two more bad years away from coming here.
Hot mess. These guys were WS contenders at the end of last season. Now a dumpster fire. The heck with mlb I’m done
Lol sure. See you in October. Dumpster fire smh.
if the Yankees spend anything they’re the 3rd best team in the East at best. Morton and Snell are going to hurt more then you think.
Yet they still have a better rotation than the Yankees, which hurts to say because they’re the team I root for, but I’m not one of the delusional ones that always brings up 27 rings as a counterargument.
LOL! You’re done with BB because the Rays went to the WS?
Other than that, this is good news.
Although it does seem like the Rays are making goofy moves, in fairness Morton is old, and Snell looks like he peaked in his Cy Young year. The Rays are still immensely deep, possibly the deepest in baseball. Those “Devils” ain’t goin’ anywhere. Still Pennant contenders.
Laugh
Ing
Duck
This is a move I can get behind. I’m ready for this underdog team to shine again in 21′.
Hefty contract, but I am on board. Pittsburgh is known for ruining pitchers, or at least impeding their progress. 180 innings of 4 era ball sounds about right, let the offense take it from there. Welcome back, Arch! Fly the stripes!!!
Archer was declining well before going to Pitt.. now after ToS hes toast.
Which type of TOS surgery did he have? Or does that matter to you?
are you aware of the many careers ruined by those needing TOS?
My understanding is that there are two types of TOS surgeries. One is the type that no one comes back from, and the other is far less lethal. If Wadz wants to claim Archer is toast because of the TOS, it would be useful if we knew what type of TOS surgery it was.
My guess is that TB probably understands the two types of TOS surgery as well as I do. And they wouldn’t sign someone with the career-ending TOS.
cry baby
What’s old is new.
As long as Pittsburgh has viable prospects, Tampa should keep signing Archer and trading him back to Pirates. Works in video games!
If only the Rays could flip him now for that Flashback MVP Cutch card. 2013-14 Cutch would kill on the 2021 Rays. LOL #TheShow
Pirates if i may correct.. the city of Pittsburgh and its Penguins and Steelers cant agree with “ruin pitchers”.. thats all about Nutting
I’m a little surprised the cost conscious Rays would gift Archer with $6.5M. Of course, the article mentioned that this is pending a physical which probably isn’t a sure thing. I owned Archer in a few AL-only during his salad years (2015-2017). Those 3 yrs of delight saw Archer average 245 K’s a season and make 2 AL all star teams. And I know, it does seem like a lifetime ago. Personally, I wish nothing but the best for Archer and his family but I don’t have a great feeling about this. But having said that, for my last US dollar in AL-only I can see worse ways to spend it then on Archer.
love this signing actually – Rays will bring out the best in Archer. 6.5 mil is not that much when you see guys like Happ and Smyly sign for more and kluber almost double
Smyly is lightyears better then Archer at this point and coming off TOS its not a given even Kluber is healthier.
Steamer and ZiPS project Drew Smyly with 2021 WAR of 1.5 and 0.9 while projecting Chris Archer with 2021 WAR of 1.7 and 1.6.
Archer is only nine months older than Smyly.
@Darkside. I feel like you have that opinion because of Smyly’s 26.1 innings of work from last season because if you look past that, I don’t see how you come to that conclusion.
Hopefully rays fix him up
$6.5 million is more than I figured he’d get. Actually makes Quintana at $8 million look like a bargain.
Before the comments, I’m both surprised and sickened by the Callaway revelations and expect him to be fired as soon as the team and MLB feel like they’ve covered their end of an investigation.
Nothing makes Quintana look like a bargain. I’d bet against him pitching 150 innings or having an ERA below 4.3. But the Angels complimented him with Cobb, so everything is all right.
You might be right about Quintana’s ERA, but he is pretty much guaranteed to pitch at least 170 innings. The only two years in which he has pitched under 170 innings are 2020 and his rookie season.
Don’t come in here with facts.
Per 11 if the Angels sign him he’s immediately garbage. To counter the years and years of proven durability he’ll go find one stat that confirms his bias and repeated ad nauseum.
Dan.
Six man rotation, 27 starts? If someone goes down, Barria or Sandoval or Demters will slot in. Few pitches average six innings a start. He hasn’t averaged six innings a start since he was with the White Sox.
Five innings a start is 135, so 150 sounds about right. If he stays healthy.
If someone goes down, the Angels need to get Barria out of the pen and into the rotation. If for nothing else but to free a spot in the pen.
Heaven, do you follow the Angels? You don’t sound like it.
Guess who wrote this?
If Quintana or Cobb produces 150 innings with an ERA below 4.50, I’d be surprised.
Does that person not know baseball either. I guess no one knows baseball because that’s pretty much the standard view.
Quintana isn’t very good because he isn’t very good and I wouldn’t bet on any individual Angel pitcher to get 150 innings. Not with 27 starts.
Maybe I’d take the field, but I would take the under on any individual.
Imagine thinking Quintana could throw 170 innings in the AL West in 2021. Delusional.
It’s not delusional, it just someone who isn’t aware the Angels have a six man staff. He’s probably someone who is not aware Barria needs to be in the rotation. Sandoval has middle of the rotation stuff and Detmers is a pretty good prospect. This means there is a good chance the Angels will stay a six man staff.
He has an excuse…. What is Halo Heavens excuse? Doesn’t he follow the Angels? Maybe he is just bad at math?
There is no pitchers spot in the AL, so pitchers can pitch a little longer. One fifty is pushing it.
Sandoval is more of a #5 starter. Soft-tossing lefty who gives up a lot of home runs.
I actually think Quintana will be able to pitch 170 innings this year for a couple reasons:
1) Moving to Angels Stadium should do him good. Quintana has really struggled with home runs the past couple years, and I think that his home run issues will recover a little bit at a new stadium. I could see him posting an ERA in the low 4 range.
2) The Angels have a really weak bullpen, so they should let their starters pitch deep into games next year. The best way to combat a weak bullpen is to limit the number of innings your bullpen is forced to throw.
3) I know that the Angels will start the season with a 6 man rotation. But given the injury history of Angels pitchers, I don’t think they will be able to keep that up for the whole season. My guess is that they will be forced to move back to a 5 man rotation somewhere in the middle of the season.
For those reasons, I do believe that Jose Quintana can pitch 170 innings with a low 4 ERA next year.
Sandoval GB to fly ball ratio 2-1, which is great. His swinging strike rate was almost 13… which is outstanding.
A lot of people are optimistic about Sandoval. For a mid rotation starter, I’m one of them.
He just wont get the starts and his ERA with the Cubs was 4.3.
I don’t see it.
Not to worry about the 6.5M. He’ll have a couple of good months, and the Rays will trade him to the Pirates for Ke’bryan Hayes and Mitch Keller and a PTBNL (Kumar).
Rather have Harold. He works harder
So overrated he’s underrated. Good move by the Rays
terrible use of a limited payroll
Nice reclamation project by Tampa. $6.5 million is a bit more than I thought was out there for Archer though.
Spending 6.5m on Archer is basically a drop in the bucket…to most franchises. This contract might actually make Archer the highest paid pitcher on their team now. I’m still confused about the Blake Snell trade. I do understand letting Charlie Morton go. Even if Archer bounces back and stays healthy in Tampa, I think his ceiling is probably a middle-of-the-rotation arm at this point in his career. Overall I don’t think this is a bad move, but I doubt Chris Archer will move the needle on whether the Rays can replicate the success they’ve found the past couple seasons.
The ulitmate insult to the Pirates is if he’s able to bounceback, even to a league average degree and I’m quite worried that will happen.
He could easily have a great year if he pitches smart (and the Rays know how to maximize that).
Has TOS changed significantly for the better? Archer for $6.5 million from the smart, fiscally conservative Rays and the Dbacks pick up Merrill Kelly’s option for $4.5 million after TOS.
History of TOS comebacks has not been good. The clubs must know something we don’t know (which admittedly is probably always true).
$6.5 millon seems quite steep for Archer. Pitching has been going for pretty high amounts this off season though. Garrett Richards, Drew Smyly, Kevin Gausman all commanded at least $10 million, but for just $1.5 million more, they could have had Jose Quintana who at least isn’t coming off TOS.
I agree this is a higher than expected price. I’m guessing they watched a ton of video on him before making the offer and have a plan on how to fix him. They’re better at developing pitchers than anyone, with the possible exception of Cleveland.
6.5 does seem steep given the injury and his mediocre last 4 years. I am starting to think Arrieta might get that 8 million he is after this off season.
So the Rays loaned Archer to the Pirates for a year and a half in exchange for Meadow and Glasnow (plus).
When talking about this trade, why does no one ever mention Shane Baz? He’s a TOP 100 PROSPECT for crying out loud.
Baz is kind of the forgotten piece of the trade because he was a PTBNL, as ridiclous as that may seem that a first round draft pick was a PTBNL in a trade just a year after he was drafted. He definitley has the stuff to be a good pitcher, but lacks decent control and his curveball and change-up are seen as average-to-below average pitches. How his control and other two pitches develop could hinge on him being a SP or RP.
What about Baz
I admit the 6.5M seems heavy, but I doubt the Rays were bidding against themselves. That means other teams had to be offering 5M plus, or in that range. If that’s what the street is offering, that’s what it’s (he’s) worth.
It also makes for a good story, for a team that can use one this off season. This nodding your head and saying losing Snell/Morton is just the “Rays Way” is only going to work if they’re in the hunt. And frankly, I’m not sure they are; iffy starting, poor offense, relying on the bullpen having another good year (which usually doesn’t work).
Not that it matters much in Tampa; finish last, you draw 1M, finish first, you draw 1M. The “brand” of the Rays is a dead issue. It actually makes Neander’s et al jobs that much easier.
Always liked Archer. Hope he finds his form with TB. If anyone can figure out a role that works for him, it’s TB. 6.5 million is more than I thought TB would spend so I hope it works out!
I came on here to post pretty much exactly this. You beat me by three minutes.
Rays are so dumb
Yup, so dumb they went to the WS last year and have the game’s best farm system by far. What a bunch of morons! At least they’re smarter than some Mets fans.
New ownership…. our last regiment was the. Dumbest in sports.. not anymore… smart organization now. Rays are a smart organization but this was one of the dumbest moves of the year. Even if they turn archer around he wasn’t even close to worth 6.5 mil. No team was paying him that. At least I hope not.
No, Rockies and Orioles had you beat before. I admit this particular move is a bit of a head-scratcher, but overall, I think the Rays are one of the sport’s smartest teams. What they can accomplish every year with their payroll is impressive. As for Archer, I doubt he recaptures the magic of a few years ago, but if he passes his physical and doesn’t lose a ton of velocity, they can turn him into an innings-eater. That would make the contract worth it. I think the Rays take a step back this year while patiently letting their farm talent develop, but they’ll be true contenders again in 2022 (assuming there *is* a 2022 season).
Yeah true. Rays are always a step ahead
Cano.
Mets peeps should really stay away from any conversations involving the subject of pitching coaches / GMs / Managers right about now…..
They’ve kind of got a knack for concentrating on other things…..pictures….. of sorts, instead of pitchers. They’re spelled similarly, but have very different, uh, outcomes.
I guess Archer’s ok with making $6.5m and only pitching 150 innings / year maybe snagging a handful of wins…
Although Cash was considered very good at inspiring his players, I’d never hire him… he blew it so badly with Snell, they couldn’t possibly co-exist in 2021. Cash is implementing TB’s own version of moneyball, by overusing and rotating cheap relievers and underutilizing and consequently devaluating starters.
So blind to this concept, Cash screwed with the baseball Gods and decided to over-manage his team when he was actually spectator to a historical WS start. Insanity.
You’re a Braves fan, would you rather have this deal or the smyly deal??
Smyly
@bravesfan. I suspect you already agree with this, but I would prefer the Archer deal. I think the only way anyone prefers Smyly is if they really believe in what he did last season. That is just waaaaaay to much hope hung on those 26.1 innings. I sure hope what the Braves saw in Smyly is real but for the moment it looks to me like Archer is better and cheaper.
Yup. My thoughts are Smyly’s injury history and performance have too much risk involved, especially for the cost when you compare it to the Archer deal. Unless you’re strictly looking for a lefty to put in the rotation, Archer would have clearly been a better deal. At 6 mil, if you had to move him to the pen cause he wasn’t pitching well, then fine. But Smyly at 11 mil in the pen, or hurt for that matter… that’s a different story. I think they both have similar upside, just smyly seems to be the higher risk and clearly more expensive
The clock strikes midnight on the rats this year, chased back into the cellar where they belong.
Has to go down as one of most lopsided trades ever made. Rays even get him back. Yikes.
They must believe he’s healthy to give him $6.5M
That’s a waste of money. Let a prospect have a shot.
So basically the Pirates get zero in that trade and TB gets Meadows, Glasnow, Baz, and Archer again.
And they didn’t get a ring out of the deal like the Cubs did with Chapman.
Yeah, but they did get another AL Pennant to hang on their wall. Still something.
Archer made $1.5M when he finished 5th in the Cy Young in 2015, but all these moron fans care about is the salary on the back end of a players career, never when he’s massively underpaid when he’s good. Hypocrisy at its finest.
Why are you like this? It’s not difficult to understand.
Saying no one cares about that is just wrong, but that’s not surprising for you.
Lol if he ends up being anything like he used to be for Tampa, that 2018 trade could go down as the worst swap in history
from a study regarding TOS performed on MLB Pitchers:
”A study in 2017 assessed 14 MLB pitchers undergoing TOS surgery. 77% returned to MLB after an average ~ 11 months following surgery. Pre and postoperative career data showed no significant differences in traditional pitching metrics, including ERA, WHIP, and strikeout-to-walk ratios.”
Idk why more MLB teams dont employ the Trade and Resign method. Sometimes it takes a few yrs but the Phillies did it with Cliff Lee.
Aroldis + Gleyber. Adam Eaton + Giolito, Lopez and Lynn.
Too much for a pitcher that has been a disaster over the last 2 years
Rays have no choice but to dumpster dive hahaha
Have you paid attention to who the Yankees have signed so far?
Obviously, he has not, too busy drinking the Yankee Magazine Kool-Aid, failing to realize that guys like Jasson Dominguez, Clarke Schmidt, Deivi Garcia and Michael King are not as good as they’re being made out to be. No, I didn’t forget about the bogus 27 rings counterarguments, which I do not use even though I am a Yankees fan myself.
Bloom had no interest in Archer? For 6.5 million I would have taken a shot at him.
Agreed. Great deal by Tampa. Not sure what is going on with Bloom.
So they don’t spend money on much else but guarantee 6.5M to Archer??? I wouldn’t give him more than a minor league deal after seeing him “pitch” in Pittsburgh. He has a nice slider but cannot command his fastball and either misses or grooves it over the plate every time. He’s broken.
To his credit, Archer always seemed like a good guy, a straight shooter about his own performances here. He’d no doubt agree that he under-achieved. And yet, he’ll always be remembered as the symbol of administrative incompetence as not only were veterans of their last successful years dumped, but so were their top minor league prospects in trying to earn a one game wild card berth. Little leaguers swapping baseball cards wouldn’t have made such moves
As it should be. Archer going home.
Damn… if Archer gets $6.5M from TB, maybe Boreass can coax some idiot team to be $7M+ for Arrieta
I’ve been suspicious of the Pirates coaching and development for pitchers for a little while now. Archer goes from the Devil Rays to the Pirates and regressed. Gerrit Cole leaves Pittsburgh and becomes an ace. Glasnow leaves the Pirates and finds greater success.
I admit saying Glasnow found greater success with the Devil Rays might be a thin line. I’m also not deeply knowledgeable on the Pirates themselves so if there is an intelligent pirates fan out there (thinking of YOU mlb1225) who would like to inform me of any info I am missing, that would be welcomed.
In fairness to PIT, Archer had been in decline before he even left TB. Why the Pirates packaged a deal for him like he was still an ace was a massive mistake then.
At the time, Glasnow was a mess on the mound. Would pitch great but had a lot of walks and would give up an ill timed HR lo lose games. Meadows was a good glove and a line drive hitter who never hit for power at any level as a pro. Baz had just been drafted and had control issues. Archer looked like the best arm available at that deadline and others were in on home. O one was even mentioning the Pirates as a team trying to obtain him. Was viewed as a good deal at the time. Most everyone in Pittsburgh thought it was a good deal at that time. Now everyone is Pittsburgh is revising history now that Arche had moments then was hurt now gone.
Few people are revising history if they are baseball fans and see the bigger picture of a front office conducting business with no road map. The trade made no sense then and makes even less sense now. Here’s a team that had dumped many of the vets from the Cutch era via trade or release, that somehow decided that chasing a wild card berth that entailed jettisoning its top prospects was the way to go. The only revisionism going on here comes in the form of making some assessment of guys who have shown incredible potential but who are still maturing
“Most everyone” in Pittsburgh who “thought it was a good deal” must never have seen Archer pitch or come to grips with the idea that he was up and down, and not worth the cost.
I see Bob Nutting changed his name here to gozurman1.
Still had an FIP under 4 in every year except 2019.
The Devil Rays definitely get a A+ for dumpster diving. You want to continue to contend for your fans? Perfect solution: move to Montreal, West Virginia, or Portland. Basically get out of Tampa!
Why would anyone want to go to Portland with all the riots going on there?
Better than Detroit
1) Mostly peaceful protests
2) Canada (again?), WV? – How about a place where baseball can thrive, like, TN? I mean WV? The only place that may actually have less fans than Tampa….. No slight against WV intended, bro, but think that one through.
I don’t want to get political but you are wrong about #1, I live in Oregon.
Completely agreed with #1. I don’t live there but I’ve seen enough on both sides. Place is like a political war zone. Terrible place for a sports team. Fans would just tear it apart.
By the way @Yankee Clipper, you seem very uncertain in your post.
Feels like an overpay given Archer’s recent performance and health. Even more surpirising that it comes from the Rays, but if anyone can get him back to form, it’ll be the Rays.
2019 was really the only year he had an FIP over 4.00. Every other year he’s had an FIP less than 4, which makes him very serviceable if 2019 just proved to be his down year.
I’m fairly certain I could come back and pitch again, especially to 4.50 ERA ball. Hell, I’ll do it for 5M.
Archer has been far from great as of late but his better years were in Tampa. This could be just what he needs to get back on track. I like this.
So at the end of it all the Rays end up with Glasnow, Meadows, and Archer while the Pirates end up with a bottle full of regret. It’s hard not feel bad for Pirates fans
Naw. Just wait until 2026.
And Baz. Don’t forget Baz!
I haven’t made a final decision until tonight, but I’m now ready to declare that the Rays won the Archer trade with the Pirates.
Pretty cool. Have cake and eat it too. Kinda like the White Sox reuniting with Eaton so he can team up with the guys he was traded for.
If Archer struggles and puts up negative WAR before being released by the Rays – this signing could actually redress some of the trade balance back to Pittsburgh.
I think you are on to something.
Yeah punk , you better run! You know I’d be coming for you!
Amir Garrett
The Rays traded Snell to the Padres because they got the prospects they wanted to pull the trigger on the trade.
Obviously the Rays feel confident in how the surgery went to sign Archer to that much of a guarantee (he still has to pass their physical) in free agency. The Snell trade gave the Rays 2 younger pitchers & helped them add to a organizational weakness (catcher) for the future.
It’s so funny to see the stupid/jealous New York fans on this site! Yankee fans ticked off that a team whose payroll encompasses just about 2 of their 25 man roster keeps ruining the so call just championships they should be getting!! Funny as crap to see them wine and complain about the Red headed step brother Rays.. and those typical jealous Met fans!! They just keep on bein Losers!!! Gotta Love it seeing them Cry!
As a Pirate fan, this was the trade that took the franchise from rudderless to bottom feeders. A ridiculous trade that happened 2-3 years too late. I wish Archer well though because none of it was his fault. He was just damaged goods by the time we got him. And our awful coaching staff certainly wasn’t going to help him.
Trade with the Rays at your own peril! If you told the pirates that the guy you’re about to trade for will be back with the team your dealing with in 2 years…they wouldn’t believe you, yet here we are!
Hope they never again trade with Rays. Somehow the Rays seemed to know he was damaged goods that the Pirate medical staff missed. The size of the contract leads me to believe that he got the needed surgery they were aware of. I was expecting a minor league contract. Stick with dealing with the Yankees, those deals seem to at least work out.
WTF is that uniform in the photo?
Pirates should trade Ke’Bryan Hayes and Mitch Keller to Tampa to get Archer back.
Naaaa….ain’t gonna happen. They have a new GM who doesn’t appear as gullible. The Rays who never spend crazy must know something about Archer the rest of baseball doesn’t.
Goes to show why the teams that develop their pitchers well don’t have one organizational philosophy on how pitchers should pitch. The Rays try to find what works for each pitcher, while teams like the Pirates and Rangers seem to want all their pitchers doing the same thing.
Rays lost Snell and Morton.Fight for 3rd place in the division with the Boston.Rays think they can play the bullpen game 120 times this yr.They are both well coached and talented for sure.But you cannot win without inning eaters and TB has only 2 reliable starters and 1 only throws fastballs effectively.IMO the great evaluators in TB will have a few down yrs.Bullpen idea worked because 40% of the time Snell & Morton where toeing the rubber and both were excellent.Where is that production going to come from?No fairy tail this yr,with or without a great bullpen.Results won’t be even close to last yrs great run.
Ok….don’t take them seriously. They’ll watch as the “expert” prognosticators pick them behind the Yankees or whoever. Then, again, they’ll show why their way works more often than not as yhe Yankees make it rain on expensive retreads or free agents whose best years are behind them.
leftcoast11 – pyramidsuccess
Rays lost Snell and Morton.
=========================================================
And Snell & Morton combined for a respectable 6-4 with a respectable 3.89 ERA, Had neither pitcher been there last year, they probably still finish 1st.
Put another way, if you took Snell and Morton’s stats off of TB last year, their ERA is still way better than the NYY.
Maybe your a stat junkie idk.But my eyes tell me TB doesn’t win anything without Morton & Snell.Big dogs walk without leashes!TB has no big dog to keep the other dogs out.AAA team with an ultra elite bullpen this yr.
nutting wallet and pirates will have last laugh on these deals with higher profit margins
Be honest,who’s future looks brighter.TB and their front office magic or Toronto and their band of ex ball players seeds?By my check TB has 1 position starter who makes you take a second look at your all star ballot.Toronto’s kids have all had great spurts and fantastic moments at such a young age in a very deep bullpen division.These kids are seeing multiple looks every nite and they hit like veterans already.Toronto is the true youngster evaluators.They have 5 kids rt now who are going to make hundreds of millions dollars.Name 2 guys on TB who will earn a 100 million contract?So who really has the best system?Easy to appreciate underdogs but it doesn’t mean you can do better then,Biggio,Guerrero,Bichette,Hernandez,& Gurriel
It’s the pitching that makes Tampa special they just keep developing it. Toronto has a solid young nucleus and probably has better young position players but Tampa has the young pitching hands down. Toronto has done well though no question and should be good for many years and better chance to keep there 100 million dollar players. Tampa will always trade those guys before they give away those type of contracts. It’s why they traded Snell so it’s hard to say who will get those types of contracts but if they do it won’t be with Tampa.
Sometimes when you don’t want to sign free agents and you want to trade your star pitcher you suddenly get the urge to dumpster dive. Enjoy 3rd place in the AL East Tampa.