Reds GM Nick Krall kicked off the offseason by stating that “going into 2022, we must align our payroll to our resources and continue focusing on scouting and developing young talent from within our system.” While subsequent reports have indicated that the Reds aren’t entirely tearing things down, the team has already parted ways with such veterans as Wade Miley and Tucker Barnhart, and combined with last winter’s trade of Raisel Iglesias to the Angels, that marks three notable players given away for virtually nothing in salary-dump fashion.
Much to the dismay of Cincinnati fans, the gradual increase in spending that followed six losing seasons from 2014-19 now appears to be over. That rebuild resulted in winning records in both 2020 and 2021, but only a two-game appearance (without a run scored) in the expanded 2020 postseason to show for the Reds’ efforts. It is safe to say that the pandemic is in large part to blame for ownership’s apparent decision to limit spending, and yet it also can’t be ignored that some of the higher-paid members of the Reds roster have underachieved — a critical setback for any mid-market team.
Case in point, Eugenio Suarez.
The third baseman’s seven-year, $66MM extension in March 2018 was one of the early signposts that the Reds were getting ready to open the pocketbook and start building the core of their next contender. The extension covered Suarez’s three remaining arbitration years and up to five of his free agent years (Cincinnati has a $15MM club option on his services for 2025, with a $2MM buyout).
Suarez earned the extension after posting some solid offensive and defensive numbers over his first three seasons in the Queen City, and the Reds’ decision to lock him up looked even wiser considering how Suarez performed in 2018-19. Over his age 26-27 seasons, Suarez kicked up his production to another level, hitting .277/.362/.550 with 83 home runs over 1268 plate appearances, good for a 132 wRC+ and a 133 OPS+. Suarez received down-ballot MVP attention in both seasons, made the All-Star Game in 2018, and cracked 49 homers in 2019 to tie the second-highest single-season mark in Reds franchise history.
It certainly seemed as if Suarez was set to be one of the cornerstones of a now-loaded Reds lineup that added the likes of Nick Castellanos and Mike Moustakas in the 2019-20 offseason. However, Suarez simply hasn’t been the same since, and there are some unwelcome signs that 2018 and 2019 may represent his peak.
Some red flags even emerged during that 49-homer season. Suarez’s .351 xwOBA was well below his .381 wOBA, and his strikeout rate ballooned to 28.5%, after Suarez struck out at only a 23.8% rate over his first five MLB seasons. As per Statcast, 2019 also marked the lowest line drive (24%) and grounder (36%) rates of Suarez’s career, as he sustained the big increase in his fly-ball rate that began in 2018. Statcast’s “Expected Home Runs” data only covers the last three seasons, so while Suarez’s 2018 numbers can’t be analyzed, the xHR metric indicates that Suarez “should” have hit only 39.1 homers in 2019.
The other glaring trend was Suarez’s evolution into being a dead pull hitter. Since the start of the 2019 season, the right-handed hitting Suarez has hit the ball to left field 50.5% of the time, the fourth-highest pull rate of any qualified hitter in baseball. While teams increased their shift usage against Suarez in 2019, it didn’t hamper his offense too much thanks to that sky-high 29.5% homer rate. In fact, Suarez had a whopping .423 wOBA against the shift in 2019.
The shifts kept coming, however, with teams shifting against Suarez 69.6% of the time in 2020 and 55.2% of the time in 2021. With Suarez’s fly balls leaving the yard at a more moderate rate and his grounders now getting gobbled by opposing defenses, Suarez had only a .221 BABIP in 2020-21, contributing to that big dip in his offensive numbers.
Suarez followed up his big 2019 with almost exactly average (100 OPS+, 101 wRC+) production in 2020, as he batted .202/.312/.470 with 15 homers in 231 PA. After only a .504 OPS over his first 82 PA, Suarez had a .928 OPS in his last 149 trips to the plate, so the thinking was that Suarez might have just had a slow start. The third baseman also underwent surgery to remove some loose cartilage from his right shoulder in January 2020, though Suarez was expected to have been ready to go by sometime in April if the season had started on time.
That shoulder surgery stands out as an obvious demarcation line between Suarez’s peak production and his decline over the last two years. However, given the statistical question marks that began even in 2019, injuries can’t be considered the root cause for Suarez’s struggles. As his rough 2021 season played out, all of the warning signs that stood out in 2019-20 snowballed, resulting in what was essentially a replacement-level season. Baseball Reference gave Suarez a subpar -0.7 bWAR, while Fangraphs’ calculations were only a little more generous, calculating Suarez at 0.6 fWAR.
Suarez batted .198/.286/.428 over 574 plate appearances, hitting 31 home runs but contributing only an 80 OPS+/85 wRC+. His 9.8% walk rate was his worst since the 2016 season, and he had only a .301 wOBA against the shift. Really, considering Suarez had only a .313 wOBA when teams weren’t shifting on him, his pull hitting was less of an issue than the fact that he wasn’t making much hard contact at all. While Suarez still had one of the league’s better barrel rates, his 39.8% hard-hit ball rate was below the league average.
The strikeouts also just kept coming. There has always been a lot of swing-and-miss in Suarez’s game, yet among qualified batters, only Javier Baez and Wil Myers have a higher strikeout rate than Suarez’s 29.1% figure since the start of the 2019 season.
If these problems at the plate weren’t bad enough, Suarez’s defense is now also a question mark, though that could be more due to the Reds’ roster construction. With the team unable to land a shortstop in the 2020-21 offseason, the Reds planned to move Suarez to shortstop last year, thus moving Moustakas into the third base role and breakout rookie Jonathan India getting a shot at the everyday second base job. Suarez began his career as a shortstop and lost 15 pounds last winter in preparation to move back into his old position, and yet the defensive problems that triggered his move to third base in the first place continued.
Pretty much all of Suarez’s time at shortstop came in the season’s first six weeks, as he struggled enough that Cincinnati quickly pivoted away from the experiment. With Moustakas spending a big chunk of the season on the injured list, Suarez was able to move back to third base, with India enjoying a Rookie Of The Year campaign at second base and Kyle Farmer turning in a respectable performance as the regular shortstop.
Heading into 2022, it’s hard to know what to expect from Suarez. If the NL adopts the designated hitter as part of the new collective bargaining agreement, it will alleviate some of the infield logjam that stemmed from the Moustakas signing, but Suarez getting time at DH doesn’t help matters if he still can’t hit. It could be that some mental pressure might be lifted for Suarez if he doesn’t have to worry about a position switch, and yet defensive metrics have illustrated that Suarez has been an average third baseman at best for the last four years.
For a Reds team now looking to trim payroll, Suarez’s $11MM salary in each of the next three seasons (and the $2MM guaranteed via his club option) stands out as an expenditure that the club would probably prefer to not have on the books. Finding a suitor for Suarez in the wake of his 2021 down year won’t be easy, as teams may now see Suarez only as a one-dimensional power bat who doesn’t make much contact, and whose production can be kept in check by the shift.
It’s worth noting that Suarez drew some trade interest last offseason, with the Nationals in particular exploring a deal, though Washington wasn’t open to parting with its top pitching prospects. In hindsight, last winter may have been the Reds’ best opportunity to score a solid trade package in return for Suarez, as he still carried enough long-term value that Cincinnati wouldn’t have moved him in a salary dump.
The equation may have changed now, as the Reds might need to attach a prospect as a sweetener for another club to eat a bigger chunk of Suarez’s salary, or Krall might have to arrange some kind of a trade for another team’s unwanted contract. The Reds could also conceivably try to package Suarez along with one of their better veteran trade chips (i.e. Luis Castillo, Tyler Mahle, Sonny Gray), but giving up one of those pitchers essentially just to get Suarez’s salary moved wouldn’t be an optimal way to maximize return on a top trade asset.
Needless to say, a return to form for Suarez would be an enormous boon for Cincinnati next year, as Suarez would then essentially be replacing Castellanos (who is still a free agent but unlikely to re-sign given his big asking price) as another big bat alongside India, Joey Votto, and Jesse Winker. Since he doesn’t turn 31 until July, Suarez isn’t exactly over the hill, and players have rebounded from far worse declines by making changes to their swing or their approach at the plate. That said, Suarez may need something drastic to counteract the underlying statistical trends of the last three seasons, or else an extension that once looked pretty team-friendly may now be something of an albatross for the Reds going forward.
Noel1982
They have a problem that neither jd davis or dom smith can help fix at all ! Would actually make it worse cos there’s no trade to be had between reds and Mets ! My Mets and Mets fan shall move along from this article
Please, Hammer. Don't hurt 'em.
Well… There goes any chance that Suarez will want to do a player chat on this site.
Noel1982
Was implying that Suarez is a lot better player still then jd davis and dom smith and pretty equal to Jeff McNeil so reds won’t want to trade so Luis Castillo for one or two or even all three of those mediocre talents to downgrade from Suarez !
And other thing my fellow Mets fans the dom smith and jd davis package of crap sounds just as delusional and stupid as Yankees fans offering the crapola package of Clint Frazier and and Miguel andujar for hot commodities lol
SpendNuttinWinNuttin
dude give it up
Yankee Clipper
You do realize Clint Frazier isn’t on the Yankees ball club, right?
Milwaukee-2208
This article is about the Reds and nobody really cares much about the Mets.
Not sure why Mets fans think their comments about their team, on articles about OTHER clubs matter.
RedLegJason
The Reds have a ownership/management problem.
mlbnyyfan
Why do players sign these long term deals from teams that obviously can’t afford them? Why can’t a player wait until free agency and then sign with any team they want.
Chipper Jones' illegitimate kid
Because the future isn’t guaranteed… this seems pretty obvious. Are you blaming Suarez for taking the money the Reds offered him? As if he was supposed to turn it down out of altruism.
The Baseball Fan
To the players, whatever gets them more money is the way to go. I’m not saying every player is greedy and money driven, but they just want more money when given the chance.
bkbk
slow down! slow down!
scribbles furiously
“players are regular people too.”
Zonedeads
Why would the player care if the team can afford them? Player gets paid either way and if Suarez would have waited until free agency he would be getting a much smaller deal
stymeedone
If he contributes as the 15th best 3B over the life of that contract, its a steal! Yes the last two years were bad, but at only $11-$15MM per, reasonable rates for a full time player, and excellent if he returns to all star form. Its a bit premature to call this contract an albatross.
Travis’ Wood
Why on earth does Suarez care if they can’t afford him? His contract is guaranteed, yet he’s supposed to be worried about their payroll? Lol give me a break
robert-5
Suarez isn’t a great example, bc his deal wasn’t exactly breaking the bank, but for a player like Votto…signing that deal was not terribly smart bc his contract definitely effects the team the Reds can put on the field around him. Not the smartest move if your primary goal is to win a championship. If your goal is stay where you are comfortable, and get a fat paycheck…sign away- I can’t entirely blame anyone for taking that contract…
seamaholic 2
Almost no player’s “primary goal” is to win a championship. I know thinking that is very important to fans, but it’s a complete myth. Sure they want to win a world series. They all do. But for most of them I’d guess it’s down on the list below money, comfort level in a city, family preferences, and off-field opportunities.
SoCalBrave
@Robert your argument only makes sense if you believe that the team is really limited in their spending. In reality, teams could spend a lot more than they do and still make a profit. However, they prioritize MAXIMIZING a profit, rather than winning, so why would a player do any different?
johnrealtime
I think the biggest one is probably pursuing the best situation for personal success which should lead to the money and some of the others. But I agree completely seam
GETBUCKETS
They get money locked in ahead of time.
Avoid the arbitration process.
Some security if injury happens.
If teams want to move them, then that’s the teams problem not theirs.
Strosfn79
” some security if injury happens”
Or if he forgets how to play baseball.
earmbrister
Or if he hurts his shoulder
kripes-brewers
They can afford them if they continue to produce at the expected level. When they don’t, the contract goes upside down immediately. They can’t have that amount of money tied to an underperforming salary. It’s a gamble small market teams have to make to hold onto real talent instead of letting talent walk. It’s the same with large market teams, but they can afford to just go out and spend more for replacements and let them ride the bench, or add prospects to trade the contract away.
3Rivers
Mlbnyyfan, what kind of questions are these? You have to be joking.
Samuel
Not joking.
It’s how NYY fans think. All the good players are supposed to sign with them. Only they’re allowed to have good players. The rest of MLB exists to be a farm system to them.
It’s how they’ve been raised. They cannot believe the Yankees didn’t get Seager this year. They think it’s their birthright. They’re befuddled that Hal and Cashman haven’t been spending like drunken sailors this past offseason.
They buy the manufactured image and miss what’s really going on…..like you do with your avatar.
seamaholic 2
Yankees haven’t operated like that in years and years, other than in the case of Cole. Yankee fans are well accustomed to how the team is run.
Zonedeads
I’ve only been a member on this site for a few weeks and I’ve already noticed countless ignorant post by you.
You probably only know a handful of yankee fans but here you are speaking for the whole fan base
Doug Dueck
As a NYY fan I am a little annoyed at your ignorance. Your statement “It’s how NYY fans think” is quite far reaching and includes me because I am a New York Yankee fan; however, that is not how I think. You are quite mouthy about lots of baseball fans that hope for their team to do better and should do this or that but especially about NYY fans. When you lump EVERY NYY FAN into your hate speech then I feel I have to reply to that. If you slow down just a little and at least add “some” or any other adjective, I would appreciate it immensely.
fivepoundbass
@Zone @Doug It’s often hard to decipher what is ignorance, hate, or trolling on this website. Most often, it’s not ignorance. Ignoring the other two is usually an appropriate response. Yankee fans are among the top targets, but they aren’t alone.
johnrealtime
Id say this way of thinking isn’t limited to the more casual yankee fans. Casual fans of teams like the Red Sox and dodgers are similar
Samuel
@ Doug Dueck;
I understand your comments about me. But please stop with the “hate speech” nonsense. I long ago learned the technique of happy talk from people that spoke to me nicely and then tried to rip me off of anything they could get their hands on (and some succeeded at times by finding loopholes in the law….being done to perfection today by people that make the laws).
And @ Zonedeads;
Stay on here for a while and look at the comments from Yankee fans that overwhelm this board. Look at who they want to trade for and what they think is a fair trade. Their trade scenarios here are a running joke….and of course they think all the top FA’s should be signed. Nothing realistic is ever proposed. They just want other teams best players.
Then we can have a dialog.
Ducky Buckin Fent
Ah.
Meet @samual, @Dueck. That’s his thing. Even on threads that have nothing to do with the Yanks. I think he is besotted with us.
But. Since you are a Yankee fan: did what Suarez is going through sound exactly like what Sanchez is going through to you? Sure did to me. Everybody shifts like crazy on Gary too.
Can’t say about Suarez because I don’t see him play enough. But in Sanchez’ case, I think it’s just who/what he is now. Rip it down the line into a wall of infielders or hope it goes out.
Yankee Clipper
Samuel:
“ It’s how NYY fans think. All the good players are supposed to sign with them. Only they’re allowed to have good players.”
What you meant to say was, “I’m so jealous I can’t stop thinking about and writing about Yankees fans. I wish I could join them – if only I was enough.”
I corrected it for you, though.
Pads Fans
Seriously? You would turn down generational wealth just because you might get traded or the team might not be good later?
ksoze
@mlbny what an odd question to pose. Are you saying really good players should only sign with the wealthiest teams? That might be the dumbest thing I’ve read on this site.
1 you don’t know what motivates a particular player. Votto signed a dramatically larger deal with the Reds, one of the biggest in baseball when it was signed. He repeatedly said he would refuse a trade, he wants to win a ring in Cincinnati, or no where?
2 it would be an even worse game if only 5 or 8 teams had all of the FA, they already get an unhealthy share, which tips the balance in the league.
SpendNuttinWinNuttin
did you read this before posting lol….
spudchukar
They have an attendance problem. Once a great Baseball city. Maybe their stadium isn’t in the top ten, but it is still alright. Granted the product on the field has been far from exemplary, but even so, Cincinnati has fallen off a cliff, which once was a thriving organization. Plenty of blame to go around, but the lack of fan participation, speaks volumes!
AlienBob
Suarez, is kind of Kyle Seager without the gold glove. He swings for the fences but strikes out a lot. Anyone looking at Suarez should probably consider Kyle Seager first.
Chipper Jones' illegitimate kid
To be fair. Kyle Seager is basically Kyle Seager without the gold glove.
rememberthecoop
Go back to your steroids Chipper.
Sunday Lasagna
Chipper? Steroids? I’m not believing that. Peaked in power at age 27, remarkably consistent production that fell off in ages 37-40. Muscle gain was gradual. Chipper was just a great ballplayer who stood out despite playing in an era of steroid users. Not a Braves fan. As for Suarez, they will love the guy in Colorado.
seamaholic 2
Why on earth would the Rockies want a third baseman? Especially a right handed one.
Sunday Lasagna
@Seamaholic2 just off the top of my head, because McMahon can play 2B, Hampson is an on base disaster, Home runs and Coors go together like peanut butter and jelly, and I’m pretty sure folks said the same thing when they got a guy named Vinny Castilla once upon a time?
AgentF
Hmmm how many left handed 3B in the league do you know?
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
Seattle would take him to play 3B but they would have to throw in Sonny Gray or Mahle as well. God knows Seattle has the prospects.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
The Reds would gladly give Suarez and the one year of Sonny Gray to the Mariners, and maybe even pay 2 million per year of Suarez’ contract, in return for a baseball autographed by Taylor Trammell.
HalosHeavenJJ
The Angels really should consider this. Would greatly limit the prospect return to Cincy.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Yeah I think it works better with Mariners than Angels. Mariners would actually play Suarez at 3B and get Kyle Seager like production. Angels have nowhere to put Suarez. They have a 3B, a 1B and a DH. Suarez does not belong at shortstop. I like Suarez, Sonny Gray and 6 million in cash from Reds to Mariners for Taylor Trammel or any other single non-top outfield prospect who has a blocked path to playing time in Seattle.
fivepoundbass
@Halos Where would Suarez fit? If Rendon makes it back and Ohtani DHs, it doesn’t make sense to me
trog
A trade with Toronto makes perfect sense. A homer happy park and an opening at 3B. Randal Grichuk going back the other way would fit nicely for the Reds as a platoon mate at any of the outfield spots.
Armaments216
Moustakas may be a better fit as a left handed hitter. About the same contract value over a shorter time period. Pretty big risk either way.
HBan22
Sonny Gray and Moustakas for Grichuk and prospects makes a lot of sense for both teams.
seamaholic 2
That’s a helluva lot of prospects there.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Sonny Gray and Moose, in return for a bag ‘o balls and an unranked prospect, but not with Grichik in the deal.
ksoze
Why would the Reds do that? Gray has more value than a pot sweetener for someone to take Moustakes. That’s what you do with prospects, not good proven MLB pitchers that are cheep and under control for 2 more seasons. But if you want to make a legit trade we will take the baseballs to. The Reds put a lot of them into the seats.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Ksoze:
Well, the Reds should not be that focused on cutting salary, but they are.
Bart Harley Jarvis
Manny,
Throw in some broken bats, and we have a deal!
Samuel
An underperforming player on a bad contract will solve the Reds problems?
LOL
It’s why they have problems!
trog
It’s a bad contract/change of scenery swap. Both players underperformed and dont have positive trade value. You were expecting Trout in return for Suarez?
Cosmo2
They’re not looking up swap one bad player/contract for another. Scenery changes nothing, they’re still the same players. They’re looking to improve, not just fail in a different way.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Except Reds would not want to acquire Grichuk’s salary, from the Blue Jays they would prefer a catching prospect like Victor Mesia.
trog
It is a bad contract swap. Suarez is not fetching prospects. In fact, Cincy would have to add prospect(s) if they wanted another team to take his contract, which is underwater. That’s why you try and reclaim value with another bad contract. You assume it is a sunk cost, so whereas Suarez is not offering value blocked off at SS and 3B, they do need a platoon bat in the OF.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Trog:
Reds do not take Grichuk. They either buy down Suarez’ contract or include Sonny Gray. Gray is 10.8 mil in 2022 with 12 mil team opt in 2023. Depending on scenario, maybe Reds get a lesser prospect back if the other team values Gray.
watup0100
At this point I feel they need to keep Suarez and hope he can rebound at least a little. His contract isn’t so bad that the Reds would be affected too badly, even with a cheap owner.
GETBUCKETS
Exactly he can easily turn it around and they can get a better deal.
Moose is the one that reds fans should want to see leave. Was an awkward fit from the start and has had a much worse slump with injury concerns for the past couple years.
Armaments216
Yes, this. In isolation the Suarez contract isn’t that much of an anchor, and the best play would be to just ride it out. The problem is the Reds also went out and added Moustakas a couple years ago. Now they have 2 underperforming 3B signed to underwater contracts at least through 2023.
They should move whichever one they can via a bad contract swap, so long as they don’t need to attach a pitcher or prospect. Otherwise just platoon and/or DH them and hope at least one regains some value.
fivepoundbass
I’m not sure if he can easily turn it around, but I think there is a chance to get a lot more for him during the season if he does. I don’t know how much lower you can sell if you do it now.
spudchukar
As a Cards fan, the Reds would be stupid to move Suarez now, whenever he came to the plate he was a threat. Yes teams have learned to crowd him, but still he has offensive talent. The move to SS was ridiculous on the Reds part. He is only an average third baseman, and the move to SS may have contributed to his 2021 collapse, but if there were a player that I would bet on being better in 2022, it would be Suarez. Yes Cincy is a hitters park, but I have watched him drive numerous balls deep to right center. I have no idea what kind of guy he is. But as an adversary fan I always worried when he came to bat;
WHeitzman
The real problem is they signed Moustakas who hit just as poorly and they already had an often injured 3B playing out of position, and overpayed to sign him. Now they have three who were 3B – Senzel, Moustakas, and Suarez all underperforming. At the timeme of the Suarez deal it looked great, the Moustakas contract looked bad from day 1. They should have spent that money on a SS and left Suarez at 3B
scottaz
I see the possibility of a trade with the Dbacks for SS Nick Ahmed. The Reds would like to dump a bad contract and could use a veteran SS and the Dbacks need a 3b. Dbacks have SS Geraldo Perdomo ready to take over for Ahmed. Ahmed is owed $8.757 M in ‘22 and $10.375 M in ‘23, for a total of $19.132 M. Suarez is owed $35 M over 3 seasons plus the buyout, so Reds save almost $16 M (~$2.3 M in ‘22, ~$500 K in ‘23, and the full $11 M in ‘24, plus the $2 M buyout for ‘25). Win-Win trade.
casey21
The Reds top prospect is a ss at AAA named Jose Berrero. I don’t think they are interested in a ss. Maybe a cf.
S_man_2014
The Reds did try Barrero in CF at the end of 2021.
Samuel
So they tried playing their top prospect out of position for expedience sake?
Apparently they didn’t learn from mishandling Nick Senzel.
They badly need a new FO head, and probably a new manager as well.
ksoze
Senzel didn’t fail because he couldn’t handle the position, his defense ability is one of his strongest assets. He failed because he can’t stay healthy, and that began in the minors, before they moved him to the outfield.
buddydeal
Correct on all three.
muskie73
The column probably does not help the relationship between MLB Trade Rumors and the Octagon agent for Eugenio Suarez.
gbs42
What relationship would there be between MLBTR and Octagon?
I speak the truth
Because they write the truth?
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Suarez and Moose = a mess
clrrogers
If the Blue Jays strike out on better options (e.g. Bryant, Chapman, etc.), I can see them taking a chance on Suarez. Maybe a change of scenery and a new hitting coach could help turn him around. He would really extend that lineup if he could regain his old form.
If the teams wanted to swap bad contracts, the Jays could send Randall Grichuk to Cincy, and he could replace Castellanos (not production-wise, obviously) in the lineup.
Braves Butt-Head
It’s not that bad of a contract he has been better and if he plays close to what he did a few years ago it would be a bargain.
JoeBrady
It feels just a little bit like a hit piece on Suarez. What is written is undoubtedly true, but it feels like a couple of other factors are being ignored.
1-That Suarez lost 15 pounds to play SS could’ve impacted his hitting.
2-That he had the extra pressure of playing SS, and/or putting in more reps, might have affected his hitting.
3-It might be related to giving up SS, and maybe bulking back up, but Suarez absolutely killed it in September. 73 ABs, 8 HRs, a 1.268 (against an unsustainable .432 BABIP), and a more normal 22/11 K/W. In fact, you could probably trace his resurgence to the post-AS break, with a .859 OPS and a sustainable .282 BABIP. Those are close to his 2017-2020 numbers.
4-His glove at 3B is fringy weak, but not awful. It’s not his fault that the GM forgot that they didn’t have a SS on the roster.
All in all, I think Suarez is a good gamble for any small market team and/or rebuilding team. I feel pretty comfortable predicting a 3 WAR season from him.
PhanaticDuck26
“It could be that some mental pressure might be lifted for Suarez if he doesn’t have to worry about a position switch”
they didn’t ignore factor #2; you just ignored reading it.
StudWinfield
No good team will want him unless a SP is attached and every other team would need a prospect sweetener. At this point why would anyone spend assets for him with K. Seager still out there. At $11 mill per it should be no problem to play him every day and hope he turns back into an asset.
Votto would be the money saver if he is interested in winning at all.
JoeBrady
At this point why would anyone spend assets for him with K. Seager still out there.
=============================
I’d bet on Suarez having a better year than Seager. Suarez is certainly riskier, but Seager had a .723 OPS last year, and is 34 years old. Suarez had a worse year, but a better second half, and a pretty good history since 2017-2020 (.873 OPS).
seamaholic 2
Actually Suarez is probably value positive (it would take some value going back to get him). Not because he was not awful last year, but because of his history, his age (which isn’t very high) and his relatively low salary. Reds wouldn’t have to attach anything. Maybe at most cover a couple million bucks, but I doubt even that.
Cosmo2
His K rate says he’s likely to continue to be pretty awful.
Pads Fans
Suarez played 161 games at 3B and 32 at SS in 2020-2021. He wasn’t losing weight to play SS. It was not to be fat.
Suarez hit .199 with an 85 OPS+ in 703 AB the past 2 seasons. Whatever he did in 73 AB at the end of last season is small sample size theater.
His defense is exactly league average the past 2 seasons.
He has had a 0.0 WAR the past 2 seasons. A huge jump to 3 is probably not in the cards. If he came back and put up a 1.5 WAR I am sure whatever team he plays for in 2022 would be happy with that result.
ksoze
You can’t use 2020, it was a statistical unicorn for 90% of the league, short season, and unusually conditions.
fivepoundbass
@ksoze I think 90% may be an exaggeration, but you make a good point. There is a tendency to give credit to good stats in 2020, but write off bad stats. That doesn’t make sense to me
fivepoundbass
@ Pads Fan Fangraphs says 1.6 WAR over the last two seasons. If we have to pick a favorite WAR method, how can any of them be correct?
outinleftfield
MLB and this site use Baseball-Reference for their WAR figures. I think that war has been won. Pun intended.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
I think that this site is great and almost never unfairly goes after a player. They are not saying anything unkind about Suarez that you cannot figure out by looking at his Baseball Reference profile. If anything, MLBTR sometimes coddles players by disallowing posts when players run afoul of the law. Is it an injury, the position shift, or just regression. I don’t know but Suarez was bad in 2021, below Chapman and Seager.
mike156
If you want a reason why CBA negotiations are fraught, this kind of discussion should highlight it. Cincy has several attractive assets, but can’t do enough on the field to make it worthwhile investing in complimentary players and so both dumps players with some value (did they really find no interest in Miley, a 5.9BWAR player last year or did they just figure that someone would trade for him and ask them to kick in a few bucks?) and has to search far and wide for anyone willing to take an off-load.
Is the problem the market/city, the facility, or the team management? If the market really won’t support a MLB team, then as old and distinguished a franchise, maybe it needs to look elsewhere.
joeshmoe11
The market isn’t the issue as Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Milwaukee, and Kansas City are similarly sized and have even lower payrolls. It’s terrible ownership
Samuel
It’s not just terrible ownership – it’s a poor front office as well.
joeshmoe11
True but the 2 are inseparable. Old GM was the son of a minority owner, current GM is a puppet, and the owner interferes with decisions. He’s blown up multiple trades during his time because he doesn’t want to deal popular players. And he insists on getting players near MLB ready who have a higher floor but a much lower ceiling than lower level prospects who might not debut for a few years.
seamaholic 2
Cincy hasn’t been that much worse than those teams. Milwaukee is headed toward the end of their spending period now, so they’ll be in the same bucket as the Reds soon. Royals are about ready to enter their spending cycle, but it won’t last long. Pirates are a few years behind them. This is life as a small market low revenue midwestern team.
HalosHeavenJJ
Bad ownership which is allowed to continue thanks to the other owners. Each team you listed got $118 million in revenue sharing in 2018 (last year BB-ref lists) yet only the Brewers were close to that figure in payroll.
Nutting pockets $40-$50 million out of the revenue sharing pot every year. Why aren’t the other owners pissed at this? I would be.
fivepoundbass
For the most part, I think the owners of teams that consistently pay for the cheap teams are OK with it. I see it like a prize fight that has a predetermined winner, with the loser getting less of the take. The Rays and the A’s are the two that come mind that consistently buck the system
ksoze
If you want to pick on markets, Cincinnati isn’t 1st in line. Miami is a huge market, with 0 fan support. The opposing teams hold home field advantage with the fans in the stands in Miami.
The other commenters are correct, it the ownership. He forces GM’s to not trade fan favorite players, even if in the teams best interest. He decided to cut payroll, because he could use the pandemic shortened season to pad his wallet. It’s sad, but it’s as simple as that. If he didn’t cut his two best relievers, last offseason, and added a complementary piece or 2 they would have probably been in a playoff run. They were close, even with cutting salary.
SGL30
Suarez 3B in Houston and Bregman move to SS
HalosHeavenJJ
That’s the type of buy low move the Astros could make and I’d bet it would work out for them.
Cosmo2
Another team that blew its shot at a window of contention by thinking it could goose the rebuild a few years early by spending on big names. When will teams learn? Now look at them.
joeshmoe11
They blew their shot because ownership freaked out and panicked when covid impacted their bottom line instead of riding out the wave. Had zero to do with overextending financially or forcing the window open
Cosmo2
They started the spending before Covid
socalbball
Yes, they started spending before Covid, and then ownership freaked out and panicked when Covid impacted their bottom line instead of riding out the wave, which is why the team is now in tear-down mode.
seamaholic 2
Quite the opposite. They didn’t spend enough (and wisely enough) when they had the window. Had they waited their key pieces would have either gotten old or become too expensive. They picked the window correctly, just got the spending targets wrong. If you’re a low revenue team in a non-sexy town like the Reds, that’s fatal. Happens all the time. The Rockies did it in 2018-19. The Pirates did it a decade ago.
Cosmo2
They started spending before the window truly opened. Before it was clear what they really were gonna need.
mike156
How much just a difference just a couple of years make. Here’s a 20 month-old MLBTR article on Suarez by Connor Byrne:
mlbtraderumors.com/2020/04/how-the-reds-got-their-…
“At this point, it’s fair to call Suarez a cornerstone for the Reds, who signed him to a seven-year extension worth $66MM after his breakout effort in ’17. That now looks like a brilliant move from the team’s perspective, while acquiring him in the first place counts as one of former general manager Walt Jocketty’s shrewdest decisions atop their front office.”
That’s no knock on Connor–it was based on the best info he had at the time. So, when we ask why management was so dumb to do something, sometimes we need to put it in context
RobM
The power is real, but as was the case with many players in 2019, the HRs were exaggerated. Suarez is not a peak 49-HR hitter in most years any more than Alonso is a peak 53-HR hitter. They were the type of hitters who really benefitted HR wise from the ball. The difference though is Alonso is still a solid hitter. Suarez may not be. The remaining contract dollars and years shouldn’t impede a trade, unless he is who he showed in 2021. They might be better off hoping for a bounce back of some sort the first half of 2022 and then moving him at the trade deadline. The downside is if he repeats 2021, he’ll be completely unmovable.
HalosHeavenJJ
Great point on the juiced baseballs.
stymeedone
@robm
He may not be a 49 HR player , but that shouldn’t be a problem since they are paying him like a 20 HR player.
Rsox
Suarez isn’t going anywhere unless the Reds eat a big chunk of the remaining $34 million of his salary.
The Reds created the problem trying to play players out of position. Once Suarez settled back in at 3B his numbers were better (.164/.262/.377 .639 OPS as a SS. .212/.298/.450 .748 OPS as a 3B) not great mind you but in a league where hitting .190 is now acceptable…
The Reds may have better luck trading Mike Moustakas. The Phillies and Blue Jays immediately come to mind as teams that could use both a 3B and a left handed power bat
MLB Top 100 Commenter
The best thing that the reds can do is to use sonny gray to dump either moose or Suarez. Then the Reds can afford to keep Castillo and Mahle. I think Senzel could be a good trade chip if they do not see him getting regular at bats. If reds could dump Suarez and moose, that would be a happy new year for them indeed.
Dorothy_Mantooth
I really don’t see $11M per year for Suarez as being a big problem, much like I don’t see $10.25M for Randal Grichuk being a problem either. While Suarez’s batting average was bad last season, he still managed to hit 23 doubles and 31 HRs. Grichuk hit 25 doubles and 23 HRs. Both provide above average extra base hit production and both play average defense as well. While the strikeouts are concerning, Suarez did have some bad luck at the plate last year and he’ll be further removed from his shoulder surgery this season. It wouldn’t surprise me at all to see Suarez rebound with a .240ish batting average, 40 HRs & 25+ doubles. Grichuk should be able to continue to hit 25/25+ as well. This is where the advanced metrics tend not to tell the full story. Both players had multiple game winning hits last year and are both still young enough to improve in 2022. The $10M-$11M salaries are not nearly enough to call either contract an albatross, even for a mid market time like Cincy. If Suarez’s numbers get worse in 2022 then maybe I’ll agree his contract is a problem but there should be plenty of teams who would take a chance on Suarez rebounding, especially with the DH most likely coming to the NL. He seems like a player Friedman would take and turn him back into a weapon in the Dodgers lineup.
JoeBrady
Dorothy_Mantooth
I really don’t see $11M per year for Suarez as being a big problem,
================================
IMO, Suarez is a solid buy. I’m cherry-picking here, but over the past four years, Suarez and Bryant have the same OPS. Bryant has a better glove, but Suarez has played in 504 games, while Bryant has only played in 427.
If I had a choice between Bryant’s projected $160M/6, or Suarez at $35M/3 with a reasonable $13M net option in 2025, I’d need someone to explain why I wouldn’t be choosing Suarez.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
I absolutely agree that if Suarez could hit 0.240 he would be an asset.
But for 2020 and 2021, he had over 800 plate appearances and hit under 0.200. 46 hrs over 1.5 years
For those two years, Kyle Seager hit 0.020 higher. 44 hrs over 1.5 years
For those two years, Matt Chapman hit 0.015 higher. 37 hrs over 1.5 years and a better defender than Suarez
JoeBrady
MannyBeingMVP10 hours ago
For those two years, Matt Chapman hit 0.015 higher. 37 hrs over 1.5 years and a better defender than Suarez
=========================================
I think Chapman is a perfect guy to discuss in this position.
Chapman averaged a consistent 7.5 bWAR/650 PAs from 2017-19. In the past two years, he’s averaged 3.9/650, and missed time in 2020.
So, if you need a 3B, are you trading for prime-time Chapman, or the more-injured Chapman?
monroe_says
Selling off prospects to sweeten a Suarez trade would be a guaranteed way to keep the Reds on a fast track to nowhere. I expect them to do so as soon as they possibly can.
solaris602
“….. but giving up one of those pitchers essentially just to get Suarez’s salary moved wouldn’t be an optimal way to maximize return on a top trade asset.” The Reds FO seems satisfied with giving players away for little or no return for the past several years, so I could easily see them including a Mahle just to get someone to take Suarez and his $11M off their hands for a PTBNL.
RicoD
Waiving Miley and letting the Cubs pick him up shows they surrendered before the season even started. This is the problem with competition when a team passes on a good pitcher at a very reasonable price. If you decide to trade him afterwards it is understandable, but just letting him go is a problem for the game.
cguy
What season? Will this season start? Miley is a mistake only if a new CBA is reached by Memorial Day? All these comments assume a full 2022 season, I sincerely doubt that happening.
bkbk
Kyren Paris, Ky Bush and Jose Salvador for Luis Castillo & Eugenio Suarez. Who says no?
HalosHeavenJJ
Probably the Reds. Maybe swap Bush for Detmers
Cash Considerations
Well they should really call someone then
I had a buddy of mine have an Eugenio Suarez move into his crawspace, fastforward a couple months later
He’s being sued by his HOA for harboring wild animals
kripes-brewers
I’d think this would be someone the Brewers and Stearns have had their eye on for a while, but unless Yelich is able to turn things around, they can’t afford to throw good money after bad. They need answers at 3rd and 1st and just haven’t been able to find them. Urias did ok, and Rowdy can play a passable 1st base, but they just don’t seem like the answers at either position.
Bud Selig Fan
Urias is very likely the answer at 3B, and Tellez could be the answer at 1B, and the team should know by the trade-deadline, at which time they can upgrade 1B if needed.
rememberthecoop
If they would package a starter like Gray then I would love to see the Cubs get him. Cubs need a third baseman – I don’t believe Patrick Wisdom is the answer – and even tho Jed said he’s done with the rotation, they need another solid starter. And they have the room to absorb the salaries.
solaris602
I completely agree because Wisdom exploded onto the scene last year, but as the season wore on he all but became an automatic out. Saw this before with Steve Dillard, Scot Thompson, etc. I assume you’re suggesting Wisdom heads to CIN in that deal. Reds would take it.
Samuel
Small market teams cannot buy contention. Period.
When they overpay via extensions or free agency those players have to perform. The law of averages says that not all will. Once even one starts underperforming, the entire cycle starts to head downhill.
Large market and the wealthier mid-market teams can afford a bad long-term contract or two. Small market teams have to have a large infusion of (cheap) farm system players to truly compete for 2-5 years. Cincinnati did it wrong. Pittsburgh is doing it right.
tiredolddude
We can only hope the Pirates are doing it right but your point is well taken. Build your minor leagues up, develop the kids, let them take their lumps in the majors for a year or two, become competitive for a couple years—maybe get a WC or division—then trade them when they become too pricey and burn it all down. The ratio is truly out of whack for fans of small market teams. You get to watch your team compete for a small window of time every ten or twelve years
Samuel
@ tiredolddude;
The Rays have successfully extended that widow time by not just having a strong farm system, but also by bringing in inexpensive veteran players that have shortcomings in their games, but can be used in situations where they help the team win that day.
Best example is Brett Phillips. He washed out with the Astros, Brewers, and then Royals. All saw the same thing….
He was a gold glove type OF that had the speed to play CF and the monster arm (maybe the best in MLB) to play RF. In addition to his speed his was also a great baserunner (perhaps the best in MLB along with Trea Turner). But he couldn’t hit. The guy had trouble hitting .200. The Rays coaching staff worked with him a bit (as the other teams staffs had) and got him to increase his OBP and OPS some, but unlike the other teams they never saw him as a potential starter. They spot him not only in games to start, but often bring him in during the game – not only as a late-inning defensive replacement, but sometimes as a pinch-runner in the 4th to 6th inning that stays in the game; or as a pitch hitter against a pitcher he matches up well against. So he’s an important man on the team even though he has limitations and isn’t a starting player.
Baseball Reference showed him at a 2.4 WAR in 2021 even though he didn’t play even half the Rays innings.
This is what small market teams can do to find players that can produce for them at reasonable salaries to complement a core of players that are making standard salaries for their abilities. More and more small market teams are avoiding the ‘tear it down to the studs’ rebuild and opting for rebuilding on the fly – Cleveland is coming through one and the A’s will be doing that.
If the Pirates rebuild is as successful as I think it will be, they’ll be a legitimate contender for most of the next 10 years, and possibly more.
tiredolddude
You’re right, of course, and TB has been the model for small market teams over the past decade. One could say Milwaukee is another such example
But so much has to do with ownership. The previous front office in Pittsburgh was celebrated for not only developing home grown players but also for what you write about here. Suddenly, they either completely lost the touch or had the rug pulled from under them after that talent matured and became ready for big time contracts. I tend to think that marching orders were in place and doing deeper dives into the dumpster was the prescribed course. (And this does not describe the abject twin failures of the Huntington tenure with regards to scouting and player development). So yes, I agree, and hope Cherington can be allowed to proceed on his own for years to come
That said, I always keep in mind what Pittsburgh native Mark Cuban said a couple summers back when approached about possibly buying the team and injecting much needed money in the area of personnel. In essence, he made it clear that present ownership would be foolish to sell, that profits are incredible irregardless of poor attendance or on-field success. And with that in mind, small market teams have enough going against them let alone ownership that envisions “success” quite differently than the fan base
Thanks. Enjoy your insights. I’d like to see sustained parity in MLB if nothing else As is, I don’t know if that’s ever going to happen
JoeBrady
To me, the Rays; superpower is that they continually pick up average players at below-average prices. Only 3 of their top-13 position players were developed by them, Only one of their 6 SPs (ranked by IPs), and only one of their 7 top RP (ranked by IPs).
It feels like watching someone shopping at the Salvation Army or Goodwill, buying slightly worn clothes at bargain prices.
Samuel
@ tiredolddude;
A few things….
o I read Mark Cuban giving his reason for not buying the Pirates as their not being a large market team. What I remember reading was that he felt only large market teams could contend for any length of time and make money. Then again, he – like many people that play politics – say different things to different people.
o If you read this response, you can help me…..
I believe that when Nutting took over the Pirates as a majority owner they were in bankruptcy. I tried recently to look that up, and found nothing. (Although I did see where one of the former Pirate owners had to put his mansion up for sale.) I’ve thought of emailing a Pittsburgh sports writer.
What I’m look at are 2 major issues: 1) If that’s true, what were the terms of the bankruptcy? 2) If the Pirates go under water again, would Nutting be prohibited from claiming bankruptcy and / or how much would he be personally responsible for regarding the debts the franchise had built up?
–
I know Pirates fans hate the guy and blame him for not shelling out money, claiming that he’s making a fortune at other peoples expense. But I’m trying to find if he has a legitimate reason for making sure the Pirates organization is financially viable. Protecting his downside would hardly be an awful thing for any owner of a business to do (and this probably applies to the owners of the A’s and other small market teams as well).
P.S. My read on him is that he soured on Huntington years before he finally saw the last straw with ‘The Trade’.
Also, I live about 2 hours from PNC Park in a small city. When people wear baseball caps in the area it’s a smattering of primarily 3 teams, in addition to the rappers wearing Yankees and White Sox caps (usually on backwards). I don’t read local news, and few in the area seem to truly care about MLB. There’s a minor league team but rosters there change even more than with the MLB teams, Their games are mostly a social event – i.e. something to do on a summers night. Doesn’t matter who’s on the team or if they’re having a good or bad season.
Samuel
@ JoeBrady;
You continually look at raw data and misconstrue the results.
The Rays farm system has been instrumental in their having players to trade for other teams players. Yes, they take players from other organizations that have plateaued; then developed and used them in ways that are productive. But most of those have come from trades, and those trades were made using players the Rays farm system developed.
Example – the Rays traded Blake Snell for Luis Patiño, Francisco Mejía and 2 prospects they still have in the minors. Yor count doesn’t show them developing Snell, it just shows them having 2 players on their roster from another team.
tiredolddude
Yes, this was part of Cuban’s response, to be sure. The guy is brilliant and would never seek to enter into something that would essentially lose money. But his comments about Nutting actually making great profits despite the “small market” idea were very telling.
I think Pirates fans “hate” current ownership in that they read such things and naturally see it all in a competitive way. The last I looked, this ownership group was in the top tier of “wealthiest, most profitable” ownership, which would tell me that the fan base is not on the same page. I would love to see some semblance of financial data that compares the recent Pirate glory years of competing for wild cards as compared to present day. You’re right. Small market. Smaller ballpark. Higher salaries then, versus now
Like any town, the area will support a winning team in terms of attendance and merch sales. I’m just not sure that within the current framework of MLB, that it matters anymore
MLB Top 100 Commenter
If your team payroll is under 90 million for two years in a row, you are NOT doing it right. But I love the Pirates signing of Tsutsugo.
varedsfan
Having had similar shoulder surgery to what Suarez had it seems to me that is dismissed to easily. I understand some stats may have slightly changed before the surgery I would dare say that for most players you can pick out years that happens without injury. just looking at stats alone does not take into account how differently he wad pitched to after his breakout. Not being a high level athlete it still took me over 2 years to get full normal use of my shoulder after months of rehab and healing. You have a loss of strength in the shoulder no matter how hard you hit therapy. If he doesn’t have a bounce back this season I will be stunned. Moving him to SS in my opinion also played a part last season. Giving him up now to me would be a mistake.
RePete
I agree. Suarez will bounce back. He was on the mend last year. Trading him just to dump his salary would be a mistake. If he does return to form it will help soften the loss of Castellanos.
Whiskey and leather balls
If he rebounds after some kind of tweaking to hit .250 with 30plus bombs this year they could probably trade him for a lottery ticket without eating salary after 2022 so they best make sure he gets the right tweaking lol
to4
The Reds could trade Package Suarez, Moustakas and Castillo to the Jays for a hand full of prospects led by top 5 Groshans, Jimenez and former top prospect Nate Pearson.
However, I would prefer the Jays to land Bryant and trade for Montas/Olson and then, Kimbrel!
Shoguneye
Why not just trade the entire farm system?
Why Olsen when u have Vladdy?
Kimbrel and his 16m? Not unless there is cash/prospects coming back. You just dont know which Kimbrel will show up and in the ALE his home run rate will only go up.
redhaze1
Suarez, Gray and Amir Garrett to the A’s for Chapman and a prospect.
Senzel, Moustakas to the Rockies for Tapia.
Tomahawk Takeover
The A’s are definitely known for taking on bad contracts and increasing payroll….
seamaholic 2
OMG I’m a Rockies fan and you have no idea how mismatched that trade proposal is. Tapia kind of sucks.
TheBoatmen
Saurez was already bouncing back in the final month to month and a half. He is definitely still capable. Would love a straight up trade with the Jays for Grichuk.
Shoguneye
The Jays woukd take that trade and throw in some cash in a heartbeat
nukeg
_ R A D E. W I _ H. _ H E.
A N G E L S
Pat, I’ll take a “T”…
DarkSide830
the elephant that few speak of. really though, what on Earth happened here?
joeshmoe11
Shoulder surgery full stop. You can look at underlying numbers and whiff rate, wOBA, etc (not discounting those at all, I’m a believer of advanced metrics) but the clear demarcation point was before he jumped into the pool with his kids and jacked up his shoulder and AFTER the surgery. It’s a matter of strength or confidence or arthritis or something clearly related to it
Sonny42
Mariners should be all over this
seamaholic 2
I love 95% of the content on this site, but I’m sorry, this is a crap article. No dog in the Reds fight at all, but no one making $11m a year is a “problem” worthy of its own article. Especially not one who has several 4 win seasons on his resume and has gotten MVP votes during the contract. Come on.
JoeBrady
IMO, it is completely ridiculous. Even in his ‘bad’ 2021, he was mostly just bad for about 6 weeks. Only time, and rotisserie leagues, will tell.
SoCalBrave
I always thought that Suarez had just not fully recovered from his injury. Never really looked into his analytic stats. But that tells me that with the right coaching, he could be an even more likely candidate for a rebound.
Whiskey and leather balls
Suarez and Castillo to the Rangers for Ibañez, Wendzel, Glenn Otto and Owen White. Reds get the salary relief, Ibanez plays 3rd and Otto steps in for Castillo halfheartedly at least. Wendzel is a solid prospect and White is a stud, probably starts season in double-a rotation.
slidepiece
Where does Jung play?
HalosHeavenJJ
If he could actually play a decent shortstop or second base, I’d love to see him come here along with Gray or Mahle. But he can’t.
I think Cincy’s best bet is to give him a month or so next year to see if his last couple of months from last year are legit or not. His value is so low right now there’s not too much more to lose if he sucks next Spring.
gbs42
I’m amused by metrics/projections saying a player should have hit 39.1 home runs. I get the intent, but no one will ever hit 0.1 HR.
It’s similar to wins projections of 89.3 for the Brewers and 96.7 for the Dodgers (just to make up examples). I get the point, but it still seems peculiar.
robzilla1572
Didi and coonrod for Suarez and naquin
lumber and lighting
Angels will take Suarez,Gray and Castillo 4 Sp Canning,Barria & SS Luvian Soto(top 10 )Halos take all their salary relief and give back 2 controllable starters and a top 10 prospect within the organization.In 1 swoop all the Reds problems gone with low cost replacements w/a cherry on top.Thoughts as to who why where when
JoeBrady
Suarez,Gray and Castillo 4 Sp Canning,Barria & SS Luvian Soto…..Thoughts as to who why where when
========================================
I try to never be surprised by whatever the Reds do, but no way that happens. Canning is kind of past the prospect stage, but has promise. Barria has shown very little. I see very little in Soto.
Pads Fans
Crazy blockbuster trade idea time. Suarez, Castillo, and Allen for Weathers, Lawson, Elliot, Ona, and Profar.
Padres take on a minimum of $43 million in salaries over the next 3 seasons and likely $10-12 million more than that for Castillo’s final season of arbitration in 2023. .
The Reds get 3 young pitching prospects, a potential power bat in Ona, and take on $15.66 million that Profar is owed over the next 2 seasons. Weathers is an MLB ready starter and Lawson & Elliot may see MLB time in 2022 as well.
Armaments216
Allen? From Accounting? That’s a dealbreaker.
JoeBrady
Pads Fans26 mins ago
Crazy blockbuster trade idea time. Suarez, Castillo, and Allen for Weathers, Lawson, Elliot, Ona, and Profar.
=====================================
No to this one as well. Over the last three years, Castillo is 10th in MLB in fWAR, and Gray is 17th. Think of what you gave up for Darvish & Clevinger. You’d need to come in with FV50s.
outinleftfield
As Soze says, um, no. Castillo had a pedestrian 3.98 ERA with a 1.364 WHIP and saw his BB rate skyrocket, he led the league in walks, and his K rate crater in 2021. Without the sticky stuff on the ball in 2021 his sinker stopped sinking and his changeup went from a legitimate out pitch to average. No way are the Padres giving up 3 young starting pitchers, a good power prospect and taking on $50 million in salaries,
Deleted Userr
That’s weird because they already exposed one of those young starting pitchers and that power prospect to outright waivers last month.
JoeBrady
outinleftfield7 hours ago
As Soze says, um, no. Castillo had a pedestrian 3.98 ERA with a 1.364 WHIP and saw his BB rate skyrocket, he led the league in walks, and his K rate crater in 2021. Without the sticky stuff on the ball in 2021
==================================
No to everything.
3.98 is an ERA+ of 120, which is 20% better than the average ERA.
His BB9 didn’t skyrocket. It went from a career 3.3 up to 3.6.
His K-rate didn’t crater because of the sticky stuff. It was just exactly the opposite. From 4/1-5/31, his K/IP was .92/inning. After 5/31, his K/inning was 1.06. In fact, after 5/31, he was one of the best in the league with a 2.73 ERA.
ksoze
Um, no.
outinleftfield
That is pretty crazy. The Padres would say no in a heartbeat. Too much to give up to take on $36 million for guy that hasn’t hit .200 in 2020-2021 and who led the league in strike outs in 2019.
Deleted Userr
Reds say no. And pretty quickly too. They already passed on claiming Oña and Lawson on waivers last month and Profar has negative trade value so it’s really just Weathers and Elliott.
titanic struggle
That so called loose cartilage surgery was actually an injury suffered in January in an accident in his poor at home. I hope Gino comes back and makes you shove this hack article where it belongs..
JayRyder
This is a Very Long article on Suarez.
Home run hitter. Hot and cold. Opposing pitchers found a hole. Injuries. Getting older by the contract. 3 more years.
In that ballpark I don’t think he’s finished. And the money isn’t Terrible. Maybe get him back to Something and flip him plus something else for another player. He Could get hot at some point and that’s the time to turn the page. I don’t think Cincy will contend anytime soon anyway.
titanic struggle
About done with this garbage…
ksoze
OK, got tired of reading other comments, DON’T trade Suarez. His value is at it’s lowest ever. Let’s see if he can make a comeback, if he still stinks mid season, then maybe trade him with an arm (bullpen) that a playoff team needs. If he’s good, then great! You got a good player on a fairly cheep contract.
Samuel
“OK, got tired of reading other comments,…”
@ ksoze;
It was just for conversation.
One player on a team doesn’t really make a big difference one ay or the other. – even a star player.
What I do as a long-time fan is try to discern the patterns teams are using for their rosters, ands where they are in s short, medium and long term strategy.
Like the Rockies and the Rangers, I have no idea what ownership and management are trying to accomplish. They jump here, then they jump there. etc.
This site caters to people that want to look at publicly available stats and argue based on them. They want to compare trades. What they don’t do is understand what a franchise is doing, what stage of rebuild or contention they’re in, and make moves that help them achieve their ends.
Example – when the Rays signed Wancha and Archer last offseason it was not to rehab them to their former glory….it was to eat some innings until they could finish off some of the starting pitcher sin the minors and get them up to the majors later in the season.
To comment on trading or not trading Mr. Suarez, we first have to all be clear on what the Reds are trying to do – where they want to be and where they are. Since we’re not in their internal meetings, we can only look at their patters. Based on that no one on here (and I’d suspect most working for the franchise) are clear what the objective of the franchise is……other than to field a team, and yes….make money instead of losing it.
Bud Selig Fan
The Reds are a mess. The pandemic hurt this team more than any team in baseball. The trades at the trade-deadline of ‘19, adding Bauer, signaling a “go for it” 2020. Substantially increasing payroll by adding Moustakis and Castellano and then boom — pandemic.
We will never know just how good that ‘20 team would have been with a full 162 games played vs the silly 60 game truncated “season”. My guess — really good with 3 ace like starters leading the rotation.
The Reds owner Bob Castellini, who is the least wealthy owner in the game with a net worth est. at $400MM panicked over the team not having fans and losing money and told his FO there would need to be some cuts in payroll. Dick Williams the POBO resigned, Nick Kroll took over.
More resignations followed last season including Kyle Boddy, who was leading the teams PDS.
Now the team seems to be in limbo, not able to add pieces they need to compete vs MKE & St Louis, but yet not in re-build mode either. It will be interesting to see what happens moving forward with that team.
rememberthecoop
Bud Selig Fan? I hope that’s sarcasm…
Bud Selig Fan
@ rememberthecoop
No sarcasm. I live in Ohio, and follow the Reds quite closely, and that’s the way I see it.
ksoze
I think you misread what I meant. I wasn’t upset reading comments, I just didn’t want to finish reading the list, like i normally do. I love debate, most of the time I’m probably wrong, but you learn a lot when you throw opinions out there, and others do the same.
GarryHarris
Several teams need a 3B. The Reds will be paying both Suarez and Moustakes to play for two of those needy teams.
TradeBait
Suarez will be fine. He’s recovering. If he hits .240-.250 nobody is talking about this with his power numbers. Put him back on 3B and get by until De La Cruz is ready. It’s about Moose. DH comes in, less problem. Can alternate him and Suarez at DH and 3B. Moose can also spell JV and India if needed.
It’s going to take those two guys proving they still have value before the org will be able to move one sensibly.
Deleted_User
Shouldn’t it be “An* Eugenio Suarez Problem?”
Bart Harley Jarvis
Shouldn’t it be, ‘How do you solve a problem like Eugenio?’
gorav114
He must have same trainer as Chris Davis, very similar results except Reds locked Suarez up cheaper
findingnimmo
What about a cano and low tier prospect for Suarez (if cano accepted of course). Sounds silly but that clears up the third year and the option buyout for the reds and they instead take on a bigger hit for two years. I doubt many will want Suarez for the reasons all listed above but the Mets could take a flyer on him. Maybe put cano with one of mcneil smith or Davis in it for Suarez and a pitcher or someone. Don’t go nuts on me for this thought. Obviously this only works with a dh too.
tigerdoc616
As bad contracts go, Suaraz’s deal is pretty palatable. The only reason it is of any issue to the Reds is that they are incredibly cheap. Suarez still hits for power, still plays league average defense at 3B. Yes his BA and OPS+ have cratered the past two years, but he has also had some injury issues as well. So any measure of improved health in 2022 would hopefully mean some improved production from him.
But the Reds can trade him any time they want post lock out. They just have to accept either a less than desirable prospect pick up. Reasonable since the new team will be accepting all the risk and all the contract. If they are willing to eat a portion of his contract then they might get a better prospect return.
okiguess
Another example of why Baseball needs to more towards incentive based contracts. A player like Suarez could be given a base salary of say $10 million guaranteed, but the rest would be based on performance. A player who performs could actually make more money. No team in baseball would have an issue paying a player extra should he exceed all baseline incentives. Case in point: Bryce Harper made around $30 million in 2021 and won the MVP award. I would have no issue if that bloated to $#0 million due to incentives. Then towards the end of his contract as his skills diminish his base salary would not be a budget buster for a player past his prime.
seamaholic 2
Incentive contracts are firmly opposed by the union and will never happen. Yes, of course, teams would love them.
phillyballers
How does half the league turn into Adam Dunn since Covid? I can’t remember this many guys being sent into the lineup everyday that bat below the Mendoza. HR or nothing.
RedFraggle
Chris Davis Jr
bigjonliljon
Is this a MLB Trade Rumors site or Fangraphs??
Guess with the lock out, there’s nothing else to write about
Adams 4
I believe you spelled his name wrong. It’s spelled Mike Moustakas.