With the Hall of Fame’s announcement this afternoon that David Ortiz was the only player elected by the Baseball Writers Association of America this year, the path to induction via the writers’ ballot has officially closed for four of the most notable players in recent history. Each of Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Curt Schilling and Sammy Sosa has exhausted their ten years on the ballot and will no longer be eligible for consideration by the BBWAA.
Bonds and Clemens have two of the greatest statistical resumes in major league history and would’ve been first-ballot Hall of Famers had it not been for their ties to performance-enhancing drugs. Bonds is the all-time leader in career home runs (762). Among position players, he ranks second all-time behind Babe Ruth in FanGraphs measure of Wins Above Replacement. Baseball Reference has Bonds and Ruth tied for first in career position player value (before accounting for Ruth’s contributions as a pitcher). Bonds won seven MVP awards and was a 14-time All-Star.
Clemens, meanwhile, has a strong case as the most accomplished pitcher in the game’s history. An 11-time All-Star and seven-time Cy Young award winner, he appeared in 24 MLB seasons and won seven ERA titles. He ranks third in career strikeouts (4,672), ninth in pitcher wins (354) and is third among pitchers (excluding Ruth) in BRef’s WAR metric.
Each of Bonds and Clemens have a laundry list of accolades, but their non-inductions are obviously not about any flaws in their numbers. Both players, instead, are left outside the Hall because of their ties to performance-enhancing drugs. Both players were named as alleged steroid users in Senator George Mitchell’s 2007 report. Each of Bonds and Clemens were summoned to testify as part of Congressional hearings on PED usage in baseball; Bonds was later convicted on an obstruction of justice charge for giving an evasive answer during his testimony.
Whether to include alleged steroid users in the Hall of Fame has been a subject of (often bitter) debate amongst fans and writers. “Sportsmanship” and “character” are among the factors the Hall includes in its instructed criteria for voters, and those terms have been leveraged to make both moral arguments and questions about the authenticity of those players’ numbers to support steroid users’ exclusions from the Hall. Enough voters remained steadfast in their objection to including those implicated with PED’s to keep either Bonds or Clemens from accruing enough late-ballot momentum to get across the 75% threshold for induction. Both players finished in the 65% – 66% range on their final years on the ballot — a small but obviously insufficient bump relative to last season’s 61% – 62% marks.
Schilling appeared in parts of 20 MLB seasons. A six-time All-Star, he never won a Cy Young but finished as a runner-up on three separate occasions. Schilling “only” won 216 career games, but he owned a 3.46 ERA over 3261 innings. His 3116 strikeouts place 15th on the all-time list. Among the top 14, Clemens is the only player not enshrined in the Hall of Fame.
Yet Schilling has seen dwindling support in recent years in the wake of a series of controversial public statements. As it became clear he was unlikely to be elected by the BBWAA, Schilling requested to have his name removed from this year’s ballot. That wasn’t granted, although he did see a 12-point drop in vote share between 2021 and 2022 after his push to be removed from consideration. Schilling appeared on 58.6% of ballots this year.
Sosa, somewhat curiously, never had the same level of support as any of Bonds, Clemens or Schilling. He received just 18.5% of the vote this year and never threatened election during his time on the ballot. Despite being one of just nine players to exceed 600 career home runs, Sosa’s career .273/.344/.534 slash line “only” checked in 24 percentage points above the league average by measure of wRC+. Moreover, he wasn’t a highly-regarded defender. But Sosa was one of the sport’s most famous and productive sluggers at his peak, hitting an astounding 332 home runs between 1998-2003 (more than 55 per season).
No doubt contributing to his dearth of support is that Sosa reportedly failed a 2003 survey test for performance-enhancing drugs. As Jay Jaffe of FanGraphs recently explored, though, MLB commissioner Rob Manfred later cast some doubt about the reliability of those results (which had been intended to remain anonymous). Ortiz also reportedly failed that same survey test, but enough voters looked on those results with skepticism to elect him on the first ballot. Sosa was never suspended for a PED test in his career, although he was hit with an eight-game ban in 2003 for corking his bat.
Each of Bonds, Clemens, Schilling and Sosa will need to rely on one of the Era Committees if they’re now to gain induction. Those committees have tended to be more favorable to candidates than has the BBWAA, although it remains to be seen how they’ll approach this particular group of highly controversial candidates.
As far as returning candidates go (full results available here), Scott Rolen jumped from 52.9% to 63.2% in his fifth year. Todd Helton (4th year) and Billy Wagner (7th year) each eclipsed 50%. Andruw Jones and Gary Sheffield both landed in the low-40% range, while Jeff Kent, Manny Ramirez, Omar Vizquel, Andy Pettitte, Bobby Abreu, Mark Buehrle and Torii Hunter received less than 30% of support. (Vizquel’s vote share was cut nearly in half after separate domestic violence and sexual harassment allegations were levied against him within the past thirteen months).
Among first-time candidates, only Alex Rodriguez (34.3%) and Jimmy Rollins (9.4%) received more than the 5% necessary to remain on the ballot for future consideration. As with Bonds and Clemens, Rodríguez has obvious Hall of Fame statistics but PED ties that’ll hamper his path to induction. Joe Nathan, Tim Lincecum, Ryan Howard, Mark Teixeira, Justin Morneau, Jonathan Papelbon, Prince Fielder, A.J. Pierzynski, Carl Crawford and Jake Peavy fell shy of the 5% threshold and dropped off the ballot, as did second-year candidate Tim Hudson.
Lmao such a joke. Unfortunately people couldnt seperate politics from performance. Travesty from the MLB. Hall of Fame. Not Hall of Virtue Signaling or Hall of Morality
Yeah, sportsmanship is a completely stupid idea anyway.
Idk what political views post playing careers have to do with sportsmanahip
Curt Schilling won the Hutch Award, Lou Gehrig award, Branch Rickey award, and Roberto Clemente award, His sportmanship, charity, and integrity were awarded several times as the best in all the game. THE BEST PERSON IN THE GAME, several times. As an aside. the rules for the voters according to the rules of the HoF has nothing to do with a player after leaving the game when it comes to character, and sportmanship. The BBWAA does not allow voters to after the fact (retirement) hold players responsible for their views, or even actions. Any writer that does so, is going against the rules, and is doing so with bias and animus they are instructed to not have.
FredMcGriff for the HOF
@william. It would probably be best for the HOF to let either the living hall of famers vote on who gets in rather than the BBWAA or the active players with 8 years or more service time. The fact that writers who mostly never even played baseball at any professional level get to determine who does or doesn’t gain entry to the HOF is ridiculous. The HOF has already been compromised with PED users and they just let another one in (Ortiz).
FredMcGriff for the HOF
It would probably be best for the HOF to let either the living hall of famers vote on who gets in rather than the BBWAA
I hate to break with tradition, but I don’t think many of these writers know a lot about the sport. Four years ago, only 10.2% of the writers thought Rolen was a HOF player. Now 63.2% do. That means more than half the writers have changed their mind in four short years.
I thought he was automatic four years ago, and he now appears to be automatic. But nothing has changed in four years, so why did all the writers change their minds?
At one point, there was 6 writers that thought Damon was better than Rolen. 7 writers thought that Michael Young was better than Rolen. Their career bWARs are 70.1 and 24.7.
Actually, it doesn’t mean that at all. The voting is heavily dependent on who else is on the ballot that year. And WAR is not even close to being a criterion for induction, so why even bring that up?
As always, a lot of confusion about the Hall and its purpose. Best to think of it as a marketing tool for baseball’s image. The membership of the HOF reflects how baseball wants to be seen by the public, and really nothing more. This explains the actual criteria for induction, and stats do not, and this is why stats are explicitly not a criterion for induction, but a lot of other things are. It has always been this way.
Got a problem with that and you have a problem with the HOF. Have a problem with the HOF, and you probably have a problem with baseball.
Which is why they are bending over backwards to deprive Schilling of the award for his beliefs despite the fact he was awarded the Lou Gherig award, the Hutch award, the Roberto Clemente award, and Branch Rickey award. What a terrible human being to get the highest honors for sportsmanship, charity, and helping the community. You, I, and even Schilling himself doesn’t consider himself an elite hall of fame pitcher, but when guys like Blyleven, Lemon, and Morris get in, then he is absolutely a hall of fame pitcher. I have no doubt the veterans committee put him in eventually.
Nobody bent over backwards. Schilling shot himself in the foot and then reloaded, multiple times. He’s the kind of guy who thinks he can spit in your face and you’re supposed to respect him for it, and then gets irate when you don’t. Maybe he’ll be inducted by the veteran’s committee some day, but if that doesn’t happen, he will still have nobody to blame but himself. Not that he will ever see it that way.
They do have a mechanism for that. It’s called the veterans’ committee. It’s likely that several of those denied will get in.
It shouldn’t depend on who else is on the ballot when each BBWAA can vote for up to ten people.
Are you kidding me? He was awarded the Lou Gherig award, the Hutch award, the Roberto Clemente award, and Branch Rickey award.
What do you not understand !!!
Sportsmanship” and “character” are among the factors the Hall includes in its instructed criteria for voters.
We should definitely build bronze busts for cheaters and bring kids in to honor them.
So should we cancel all the “bad apples” and remove their busts and all references from the hall then? Cause you know
character (ty cobb hating blk ppl and attempted to murder a blk person)
sportsmanship (Cap Anson refusing to take the field if the other team had blk players)
Very valid question and legitimate criticisms in the light of day, but these are not justification for rewarding cheaters that knew exactly what they were doing while they were doing it.
Wasnt David Ortiz elected to the HOF today despite testing positive for steroids in 2003 or did I dream that David Ortiz was elected to the HOF despite a positive steroid test in 2003. Mustve been a 1 time thing
Also, speaking of character, didnt David Ortiz blame the yankees for why his failed PED test was leaked? Something something character.
Man comes out with nothing but facts! Love it!
all in the suit that you wear
We don’t know what Ortiz supposedly tested positive for in 2003. They were testing for more things than steroids, so it can’t be concluded it was steroids.
That crap about Cobb is just that, crap. He wasn’t a racist or a murderer or tied to murder.
That’s a disgusting myth that Cobb was a racist, concocted by the simple-minded, simply because he was born in the South in the 1880’s. He came from a long line of abolitionists and virtually all of the character assassination sources are BS. https://nypost.com/2015/05/31/how-ty-cobb-was-framed-as-a-racist/
They cheated, plain and simple.
Ty Cobb was racist. Just about every white man, or really just any white person, was at that time
Primo example of of today’s incorrect modern thinking and also of someone who probably wasn’t around even during the social struggles. Just 100% bs.
Of course you painting “every white man, or really any white person” with the same brush isn’t racist at all apparently.
You’re a fool and an embarrassment to Pete Rose. Cobb wasn’t a racist at all.
Oh, please! Ortiz got in because it was Boston and he was popular with sportswriters. I don’t think any of the PED cheaters should get in. But here we are.
Of course they were, cupcake.
Ortiz’s positive test result was highly suspect and even the Commissioner of baseball said that linking Ortiz and steroids based upon that survey test was an injustice. Ortiz never failed a legitimate test in over 13 years of testing.
You got pretty much every fact wrong. You should really not take fictional movies as fact. Just makes you look bad.
This entire post is pure nonsense.
Teddyb, of course the Commish said that, are you kidding Ortiz is one their beloved players and at the time online to eventually be elected to the HOF. If the Commish had come out against Ortiz he would have been drawn and quartered by members of the media who love Ortiz (as evidenced by his election with the PED test hanging over him).
Which makes total sense considering Ty Cobb was the very first inductee.
I’m completely aware that sportsmanship is a criterion. Others are not, apparently. Or maybe they don’t like that it is. Hard to tell.
If MLB (and baseball writers) did nothing about steroids at the time why is it an issue with HOF voting? Other than to make folks feel self righteous.
I’m not sure what you believe sportswriters should have done about PEDs except write about them, which they did long before MLB took any significant action against their use. I am also wondering how anyone can pretend that PED use and league’s long period of inaction to address the problem wasn’t a crisis for the sport with longterm repercussions. As if we’re still not talking about it? So where self-righteousness figures into any of this I have no idea.
Blue Skies, the media was making money off of the likes of Sosa, McGwire, ARod and the rest by selling newspapers and airing their games selling advertising time, no one was fricking innocent during that era yet so far two managers and the Commish have all been put in the HOF.
Only reason Bonds never got elected was his poor relationship with the writers and you can see that just by the last two years of voting how much closer he came as he’s softened up a little.
Writers just came out and said if you don’t share our beliefs (even post playing career), we will not vote you in. We do not care what you did on the field.
Rose, Bonds, Clemens, etc I can at least see why….
Schilling, zero sense why he’s not in. He should have been 1st or 2nd ballot.
That’s this writer offering a possible explanation- don’t think any voter cited that reason. I think most that didn’t vote Schilling just don’t think he was good enough.
Schilling clearly has the goods. He was also dominant in 3 WS championships. It’s ridiculous he wasn’t voted in.
@baker I agree on Schilling. Was dominant, not tied to PED at all. I could care less what he believes. I’m not even from Boston, and one of the most memorable performances in MLB history for me was his bloody sock game. He was an incredible pitcher and competitor, HOF worthy for sure.
Baseball writers couldn’t vote Rose in if they wanted to. MLB banned him from being on the ballot. Pay attention.
Rose belongs in the hall as a player. He also deserves to be banned from the game as a proven gambler on baseball games as a manager.
Almost, but not quite. MLB banned him from baseball; the Hall Of Fame added a rule immediately after that anyone banned from baseball was not eligible for the HOF.
Before Rose there was no such rule; it was instituted specifically because the HOF knew that he stood a very good chance of being voted in as long as the gambling scandal was never tied to his playing days.
IMO he should be banned from **actively** participating in baseball (on or off the field), but that shouldn’t automatically prevent him from being inducted as a player.
But I don’t make the rules.
And in the meantime MLB has pretty much partnered fully with all the sports betting sites, so the whole this is just chock-full of hypocrisy now.
Yes, I know about that, and yes he’s a sh 1 tbag of a person, no question.
But, if the HOF policy was as I believe it should be, he would’ve been in long before that story broke. (Which of course makes you wonder what they might have done after, but that’s a whole different discussion.)
That is ridiculous. The writers voted. Period.
Schilling asked to be taken off the ballot. The voters obliged him by not voting for him. That is not on them. Its on him. He would have probably made it this year if he hadn’t been such an idiot that he asked them not to vote for him.
Could not disagree more.
PED’s did not help Bonds hit the ball, but it helped him hit it further. PED’s did not help Clemens throw a baseball, but it did help him throw it harder for longer.
Did gambling help Pete Rose pile up 4,256 hits? The answer would be no, yet he’s not in the Hall. Did PED’s help Bonds hit 762 dingers? The answer is yes, so why should he be in the Hall?
I hope none of the PED players ever get in the Hall. The sad part too is that Bonds and Clemens would have been HOF’ers without PED’s, but I guess 40/40 wasn’t good enough. 74 and 8-5/8 hat was.
Too bad Ortiz just got in. Do you have any idea how many players actually take hgh and cycle steroids? Ever play anything above high school ball? Your take is incredibly naive and should cheapen your view of the hall of fame
In answer to your question, I played Short Season Class A Baseball in the New York Penn League.
Did you play above High School?
And yes, I saw guys taking substances, to gain muscle and strength. At that level, there a lot of younger guys as I was that have not fully filled out yet. Some of them find “unique” ways to fill out.
I played during the PED era also. No, PED’s don’t make you hit the ball better, so if you can’t hit, you can’t hit. What it does do is help with any ball you do hit. Making a mediocre player a better player. A good player, a great player. A great player an elite HoF type player. It’s hard to explain to people what they do. The number 1 thing is recovery. You recover faster, so can work out harder, get through aches and pains, get stronger, keep your endurance, fade less towards the end of the season. You swing faster, so you can catch up with better fast balls more. You hit the ball harder, not just farther, and that helps not just your homers, but batting average, and all power numbers. More balls get through the infield and reach the gaps. As a pitcher, you throw harder, can increase spin rate in some cases, and makes all your other pitches also benefit from that increased velocity and spin. What’s a few mph? For the thousands of pitchers it’s the difference between being drafted, or a major league paycheck instead of working at a tire store. A great slider at 86 mph can now be a dominant pitch at 91 mph. That 89 MPH sinker is 94 perhaps, and off the table before they pick up that drop. You are making hitters speed up their recognition while adding even more nastiness. If this doesn’t explain to people that are completely uninformed about PED’s, and still manage to defend their use, nothing will. YOU KNOWINGLY CHEAT AND TAKE THEM BECAUSE IT HELPS YOU GET BETTER IN NEARLY EVERY POSSIBLE WAY
There’s no proof for any of that-simply conjecture. The only proved benefit of PEDS is faster healing.
I beg to differ. They also add mass/strength. Bonds wanted to add distance to every fly ball he hit. He did just that.
@whyNoze Did you ever see a picture of Bonds and his arms/upper body, comparing early in his career to late? Ditto Sosa. PEDS do more than promote faster healing, give me a break. I mean come on. Griffey did not juice and looked nothing like either of those two who became freaks of nature.
FredMcGriff for the HOF
@augusto. I agree on Griffey. His size never massively changed like Bonds/Sosa. His numbers also took a huge nosedive right after he was 30 (common). This is the first I’ve ever seen Griffey being linked to PED usage anywhere. It’s quite sad and pathetic. Griffey was a slam dunk HOF player and clean.
@FredMcG You could tell Griffey did not juice because his body did not change. Even if he did it once or something and never benefited from it, it isn’t that much of a crime. Bonds/Sosa used for years, changed their bodies, strength levels, and ability, obviously.
Show us the evidence, NOT conjecture that PEDS use, in and of itself, results in hitting a ball harder and a pitcher obtaining increased velocity. If that was the case, literally hundreds of players would have put of numbers comparable to Bonds or Clemens, and leave your silly little adolescent “face palm” in your diary where it belongs.
Strength does NOT = greater bat speed. If it did, NFL linemen would have chosed baseball and hit 700+ HR.
… Pads won’t waste his time “educating” me for the very simple reason that he doesn’t possess the educational material to do so. Simple-minded conjecture is only factual to the lazy, politicized or simple-minded.
Using your logic (such as it is), have you ever seen a picture of an NFL lineman? ergo, he must have passed-up an opportunity to hit 700+ career HR.
Don’t beg to simply differ. Rather, take the time to present hard evidence, not anecdotal observation.
Hard to explain it any better then I did. PED’s promote faster healing. That allows you to work out harder, at higher outputs, longer, and maintain at a higher level. The result is to increase the results of working out which increases strength. As long as you can maintain flexibility, you further increase other outputs that would benefit you in baseball. At no point did I say PED’s make you better at putting the bat to ball. What I clearly stated was that it improves the results of putting bat to ball. Since you can work out more, at higher amounts, you gain strength. That strength will add more velocity to the results of putting bat to ball. IE: harder hit balls that travel further. Bat speed has more to do with flexibility and fast twitch fibers. No one is claiming, or has stated that the results of PED’s are exactly the same per person, each person does benefit that uses them in their workout routine, and results from their workout routine. If you ever picked up a baseball and threw it competitively, you will be aware that there is more then your arm that enters into velocity. Legs, trunk, back, etc. If you can increase the strength of all of them to higher levels you are capable of better push off, better trunk explosion, and better shoulder rotation, all of which combined increase velo. No, you do not take a shot and get 95mph. You take a shot, work out, and can maintain longer the increase in newly gained strength. Results are farther hit baseballs, harder hit baseballs, more strength and durability to deliver max effort velocity for a longer amount of time, and maintain it. Without naming names, a fellow teammate made an all star game, pitched multiple years in the Pro’s, and was later released after failing the multiple tests. Two years before starting his cycles, and eventual draft year, he was the number 6 pitcher in college and averaged 88mph. Enter roids. He was the set up man for several years for a major league team and throwing between 96, and 99mph consistently. Is it possible without roids? Absolutely, but the fact he took them, was banned for them, and went form 215pounds of average stuff, to 255 pounds of absolute gas for that time period says all you need to know. Since you seem to think increase increased strenth and durability play no part in sports, I will ask you this. If I increased your strength by 5%, 10%, 15%, do you think you could lift more? If you can lift more, do you think that would be an advantage over a person with the exact same skill set as you with your old strength? If the answer to these questions is yes, congrats, you now know what an adavantage it would be to have more strength, be able to increase that strength at a higher output, and maintain it.
You obviously don’t know much about playing the game. Not going to waste my time educating you. Sufffice to say steroids very much do help you hit the ball. They also help you hit it harder. They also help you recover from the injuries all players suffer faster.
Gambling is the only rules in every clubhouse in professional baseball. Rose broke that rule. He lied about it for years after he was caught. Then he agreed to a permanent ban.
Agreed. Complete joke to keep the best player in baseball history out just to make some weird point during an era that was riddled with abuse. Guaranteed users have slipped into the HOF.
Let’s not even pretend this is the first drug issue the MLB has seen either. Paul Molitor is a known cocaine user and yet sits in the HOF. Are we saying there aren’t advantages to snorting a stimulant like cocaine and giving that one a pass?
If MLB wanted to make a stand, boot Molitor out. But they won’t do that because it’s some PC agenda against Bonds and others. The media wanted to vilify this and MLB let them.
I also want to point out those citing character that McGwire and Sosa really helped revive baseball with their HR chase in a lot of ways. They did far more good with that than bad after it was revealed they “cheated”. Bonds chase extended that excitement as well.
Baseball itself profited heavily off their usage. It’s pretty hypocritical to turn around after the fact and shun them.
Reporters are beacons of ethics.
That’s what they think
Stupid gaslighter. Go organize a Hall of Steroids for cheating heroes.
Im not the one that voted in a known steroid user today but didnt vote in other known steroid users. Its not a some steriod users are ok some are not ok kind of thing. Its an all or nothing.
Ken Griffey jr
We already have one.
Griffey was clean idiot
Really? Prove it.
Played in the same era as other users, including his teammate ARod. His ability to hit HR’s increased after McGwire & Sosa. His body broke down rapidly like PED users are prone to do.
The truth is nobody knows for sure who is clean from that era.
his body broke down in his late 30s, like most sports players. all the PED users lasted much longer.
Very childish take when many HOFers took drugs (cocaine, alcohol, corticosteroids, nicotine, amphetamines) while playing and have done reprehensible things in their personal lives (domestic violence, adultery). Not to mention the various ways they cheated- foreign substances, corking bats, stealing signs…yet you crybabies only get your panties in a twist about PEDs…why?
most of those drugs certainly don’t help you be a better baseball player.
Sit down. Those yahoos made their decisions and suffered for it.
Is anyone mad about Pete Rose or A-Rod too? Sounds like crickets.
I have known Curt since 1991. He is one of the nicest, giving people I have ever met. The amount of stories that could be shared be thousands of his generosity and warmth would embarrass the voters. Nearly each act without the typical self promoting fanfare we are so accustomed to by most athletes. The irony of the situation is two fold. He is statistically better then some of the fringe pitchers we have seen allowed into the hall in recent years, mostly due to them being liked. The hall of fame is now the hall of the really good, and if that is the case Curt Schilling certainly should be a member. Secondly, he is not being given entry, when compared statistically with others current members, specifically because he holds opinions that differ from a portion of the voters. The amazing part of this situation is that he is being judged as a man, and not a baseball player for the hall of really good by some pretty crappy people. Some of these writers that are calling Curt a bad person, are far worse people by nearly every metric we hold dear. Some even make cases for accepting cheaters into the hall, above those they hold political differences with. Some of these sports writers, and voters are ideological bigots, cheaters, liars, and selfish people never even attempting to help others in meaningful life changing ways like Curt has. Curt is a better human being then many of them. I could share half a dozen stories that would make a grown man cry listening to how good a man he is, and in each case asking for his name to not be shared. That is the horrible man these voters don’t want in the hall of the very good. At least the veterans committees will let him in, unless they have gone totally SJW like the voters.
Yeah he was such a great guy defrauding the state of Rhode Island out of how much on that video game company?
It seems like the go to move when things don’t go your way by those on the right to just toss a couple of buzzwords like cancelled, woke mob, etc. rather than look in the mirror and think maybe I shouldn’t have been so rude to people.
If you are talking about Schilling, he ASKED to be taken off the ballot. The voters obliged him.
After he said that journalists should be hung, a job that 100% of the BBWAA hold, I was surprised that he got as many votes as he did the past few years. Apparently the BBWAA can separate politics and voting for the HOF. He probably would have made it this year considering the increase in votes the last few years.
It is 100% on Schilling that he is not in the HOF today.
When you look at the instructions to the voters you see that Bonds, Clemens and all the other cheaters don’t belong. Should have never been voted for by anyone. This is the right outcome. IMHO Schilling belongs. He sunk his chances when he told voters to take him off the ballot.
Idc if he supported Hitler he put up the numbers to be in the HOF.
Not voting Bonds in will cause him to be talked about 10x more, they created a talking peace, a kind of martyr. Sort of like Pete Rose.
I guess the writers are giving themselves something to do for the rest of their careers, call it financial security.
Ducky Buckin Fent
Best ballplayer of my generation bar none.
No idea how Ortiz (& Selig for that matter) gets in while Bonds & the Rocket do not. Pretty convoluted message.
Playing the “game” and being well liked by others still gets you a long way in this world.
100% agree w you though. Bonds was special.
Ducky Buckin Fent
His numbers are just out of hand.
I hit his BRef link to refresh my memory. In case anyone has forgotten: 762 HR, 514 SB, 2227 runs, 688 IBB (lol)…just goes on & on 77 triples, 601 doubles…8 Gold Gloves. Mercy. Did everything you could ask of a position player.
Honestly I think you could give Mike Trout a running IV drip of Testosterone and HGH and he doesn’t put up a season like Bonds did. Just absolutely insane.
Right. 90% of baseball, especially with hitting, is a head game. If you don’t have the right approach you’ll struggle. The second biggest part of hitting is mechanics. Bonds’s mechanics were so smooth, and his mental game was so strong. So often I see people who are the strongest players on their team or in their league who can’t hit near as well as someone who isn’t as strong but has a stronger mental game and better mechanics.
Ducky Buckin Fent
His (22 year long) career OPS has a decimal point.
Because Trout would be dead from IV drips that of IM medications..? Ha. Bonds was insanely good, steroids or not. They are not miracle drugs that turn average Joe into Mickey Mantle. They help athletes get stronger and recover faster. It’s all rather silly- baseball players have been cheating since the game was created. Any way possible.
You don’t think the great Mike Trout could take a little HGH drip!
Meant to not be taken literally of course. But I don’t care how many steroids you gave him—I don’t think anyone in the game today would hit like Bonds. He was just different.
Only three consistent positions for steroids.
Vote no one in who your gut says used steroids.
Vote anyone in if they played at high enough level [optional:and were a good ambassador for game].
Vote them in unless actually suspended for steroids. [Optional: or vote anyone in who was not suspended twice. Sorry Manny you are deservedly screwed, anyway he had fun and made millions.]
Schilling belongs in. He is a bigot, no doubt about it. But so were lots of the players from past generations. And there is no evidence that Schilling did bigoted things while a player, only afterward.
Tony La Russa is in the HOF. He was a sharp guy, mostly still is. Does anyone belief that he did not know Mark McGwire and Jose Conseco were juicing?
Schilling asked to not be on the ballot. The voters obliged by not voting for him. That is on him, 100%.
With the increase in votes he was seeing each year, he would have likely made it this year. Being an idiot has its downside. His is not being in the HOF.
Must be a lost generation. “And Bonds head swelled ten times larger that day…”
Bonds admitted cheating. Ortiz didn’t. Other than a false positive on a test that didn’t count, Ortiz never failed a test and they were testing in all of his best seasons. 2004 and on Ortiz was incredible and 2004 is when testing started.
Bonds is a laughing stock. A sure fire HOF player that let his ego get the best of him. He will never get in. Its really that simple. Just like Rose.
Neither are martyrs. They are pariahs.
just glad Ortiz got about double the votes of A-Rod.
If there’s one person from the ballot that I really didn’t want to get in, it was A-Roid. Used PED’s and is a complete jerk
He’s a great broadcaster tho!
Even leads, amirite?
Horrible on tv.
I’ll agree to that, I have been pleasantly surprised by his broadcasting.
There should be zero debate about schilling. He’s clearly not in the hof for off field reasons. Others if you want to debate, whatever. It’s just a shame that every year we end up focusing on who didn’t make it or who didn’t vote for Jeter, etc. instead of focusing on who did make it. Some of these writers are such arrogant bozos they shouldn’t have a vote. At least make the voting viewable to the public
No one should be excluded for “off field reasons.”
Off-field reasons could make a difference for me at some level, like a conviction for rape of a child or murder.
But not just for making bigoted tweets.
When you cheat by taking performance enhancing drugs, off the field, you distort the record of performance of your own accomplishments and those players that you competed against. This provides all the justification needed to exclude you from the HoF.
There’s a lot of guys who took ped’s and got in.
Bonds is no different than Alomar, Griffey and pudge.
Ortiz is no different than Clemens and Sosa
Griffey? Put down the meth.
So by your logic we should exclude players who used Greenies in the 70s and 80s too.
Why is Griffey above suspicion?
Griffey, Jr. is not above suspicion, but I personally did not see the body changes in him that were obvious to me with guys like Bonds, McGwire, Canseco, Ortiz, Ramirez and Cruz.
I am not a trained doctor just just my eyeballs and my opinion.
Same. Either he took steroids or he had a naturally thick muscular neck.
Ducky Buckin Fent
That’s an argument for doing your bridges right there.
Schilling literally asked not to be voted in to be fair, but I hear your point.
Only because he knew he wasn’t getting in.
FredMcGriff for the HOF
Yes Schilling did. I don’t believe it was ever requested before and they should have honored his wishes. His HOF numbers can be judged solely on his over 3000 strikeouts out of 15 players to currently achieve that only Schilling and Clemens (known PED user) aren’t in the HOF. Don’t worry though folks I expect the Today’s Game Committee to vote Schilling in ASAP.
FredMcGriff for the HOF
I though the Today’s Game Committee wasn’t meeting till 12/23 but I just seen something by a google search that says they meet 12/22. Even better! https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/33138890/hall-fame-voting-winners-losers-david-ortiz-gets-else-got-good-bad-news%3fplatform=amp
Lets not act like every hall of famer is an angel lmao. Many hall of famers had demons. Some more than others.
Ty cobb hated black ppl and was caught up in attempted murder
Cap Anson refused to take the field if other teams had black players
G@ylord Perry doctored balls
You can absolutely start a new precedent of what a HOF’er is now.
Because Cobb was a terrible guy that doesn’t mean you have to vote in a terrible guy today because of that.
Schilling is a wacko but for me he definitely didn’t cross the threshold of a guy who shouldnt be a HOF’er based on his off field stuff.
The Bonds/Clemens stuff kills me even worse because there’s 3 guys who have been suspected of steroid use sitting in Cooperstown right now. & this isn’t isn’t something that happened 30+ years ago. This is today.
If the HOF thinks certain players violated the character/sportsmanship clause then they should remove those players from the ballot. It’s their ballot after all. Voters should vote on play on the field.
Ducky Buckin Fent
Perry is an interesting case.
No one goes on a froth mouthed diatribe about him & cheating. Rather, he is generally viewed as this kind of dashing, charming rogue. When he – indeed – rode an illegal pitch all the way to Cooperstown & millions of bucks.
Edit: well “million” of dollars anyway
@Foreign Substance: Ty Cobb did not hate black people and was not ‘caught up in attempted murder’. Those were myths perpetuated by untruthful biographies. A lot of Cobb myths have been dispelled by recent biographies like ‘A Terrible Beauty’ by Charles Leehrsen and ‘War On The Basepaths’ by Tim Hornbaker. Check them out; they’re both great.
Kennesaw Mountain Landis, though, was definitely a racist and is in the Hall. He’s a better example, imo.
Wouldn’t be taking the word of the Times to heart with their track record and retraction history/losing in court libel cases. not to mention involved in another 2 right now..
As for racists in the Hall.. He retired a few years before started watching, but think HOF’er Pee Wee Reese was not a fan of teammate jackie Robinson. Now that’s just going from memory from some book read years ago.
Main thing want to bring up in all of this is with all this wokie “everyone is a racist” garbage see brought up both here and in today’s media. What do some of these enlightened people propose to do about it? Start removing HOF plaques? Too many are already on a tirade to erase history and re write it to conform to something, making it fit some alternate belief. Is the HOF to fall into that category now?
I apologize.. Don’t feel like rewriting entire post, after got finished dawned on me it was Dixie walker, not Reese who had those “issues” mentioned above.
The Times has not lost a libel case in the U.S. in 50 years and, as in the case of Palin’s suit, issues retractions. Palin is pretty unlikely to prevail, but she will succeed in making things difficult for the Times, which seems to be what she’s after.
As for Schilling, it goes beyond politics, and even his racism and Islamophobia.He’s a POS who voiced his support for those who attempted insurrection and in doing so, advocated for the Big Lie. He then claimed that those who stormed the Capitol were not even Trump supporting conservatives, which, despite the best efforts of Tucker Carlson to imply otherwise, is pure nonsense.
The fact that some like yourself try to frame this as political is, frankly, absurd. It is a matter of basic human decency and respect for democratic instituions and norms, which should not be a political issue.
It’s also hardly a surrprise that he is not well liked by journalists after his statements and behavior towards them over the years, speicifically the “joke” about the rope.
Finally, he literally said he wanted to be taken off the ballot.
But fanastic whataboutsim you got there that stretches back decades.
*to be clear I’m saying he should be in the hall of fame, regardless what you think of him outside of baseball
Oh i know. And i agree with you. Just pointing out that theres ppl in the hall that have done a lot worse than say “go trump”
Schilling did a lot worse than say ‘Go Trump’ and you’re obscuring the issue. The man owns Nazi memorabilia for God’s sake.
@ Foreign Substance
I agree with you on the HOF stuff, but let’s not imply there is something “worse” or wrong with saying “go Trump”. There is absolutely nothing wrong with saying that.
Your statement and citing the N.Y. Times is a little bit of a tell.
Let’s not draw lines.
Worse things is in reference to the minds of the HOF voters. In their minds “go trump” is on the same level as 9/11, holocaust, etc etc.
Pick any news outlet you want. I picked a left wing news outlet, NYT, cause its left wing ideology as to why theyre keeping ppl out. If it was right wing ideology id use right wing sites to show the hyprocrisy.
Thanks for coming to my ted talk.
How many “racists” have been elected to the HOF rct.
As much as you hate him the HOF is about what he accomplished on the field. This isnt the hall of morality or hall of ethics or hall of political opinions/ideology i agree with.
I don’t own any memorabilia like that, but what the hell does that have to do with what the guy did on the field.
Are really suggesting that because he has that type of memorabilia that he is a member of that group. That’s actually crazy. So if he owned a Japanese flag from 1941 does that mean he hates the U.S. military? Or he hates all the people of the many countries that the Japanese invaded during WWII? It’s a crackpot theory in an effort to attack someone based on their politics which has NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS BASEBALL CAREER.
People need to get a grip on reality.
For sure. Everyone who owns a KAR98 mauser is a racist and all those GI’s who brought home items from WW2 were as well.
The liberal mind is an amazing thing.
FredMcGriff for the HOF
Last time I checked it was a free country and you can collect whatever you can afford. If I had the money and space I’d collect classic cars (I only have 2).
And didn’t Schilling mention that he’d like to be buried under a prison?
Who are these voters who think they should be the judge of character and sportsmanship? Sad day for baseball. Selig gets in but…smh
I don’t think they necessarily believe they should be the judge of character, but the hall tells them they are and then gives them a vague definition to work with. I think this is more about the writers passing that kind of judgement to the hall’s own committees.
That’s literally what they’re supposed to do. The baseball HOF is unique in that sense; a person’s character off the field has always been a consideration. Getting a personal bust in Cooperstown takes more than great stats.
All of these guys will be represented in the Hall. Bonds will be seen in Cooperstown, as will Clemens, Curt, Sammy, AROD, etc. They just don’t get a bust in the special, VIP room.
You don’t have to like it. But don’t act like it’s not how it’s always been. As time goes on, the people who vote will change. Sentiments will change. I bet Clemens and Bonds get in at some point. AROD may take longer because he’s still in the public spotlight. But their character problems will cost them time. As they should because that’s what the baseball hall is all about
I read somewhere that Rose will likely get inducted post humously, sp?, so he can’t embarrass the Hall with any scumbag antics and they won’t have to pay that ridiculous pension hofers get. I bet it happens and I wonder if the same won’t be true for bonds Clemens and aroid
Are you new to baseball and how the Hall of Fame voting works?
So all I gotta do is take some steroids and I’ll be one of the best players to ever play the game? That’s the only thing that would make me great? Dang, I really took the wrong path in life.
Sad part is Bonds n Clemens were bad *#s with out the peds. Schilling was a hit job by straight bull….
Tyson’s Pet Tiger
Absolute joke. Won’t let Bonds in because of alleged PED usage but Ortiz who actually tested positive for PED’s gets in on first shot. Yeah…makes sense. Clown show.
Alleged? Seriously? He admitted that he was a user.
Bonds & Clemens will eventually be in the Hall once it’s determined they’ve been sufficiently shamed in public.
This was their chance on the ballot.
… veterans committees.
Yea. Fair. I don’t see it though.
It’s a tricky call. I grew up loving Red Sox era Clemens. It’s a shame, but I certainly see your point.
If Major League Baseball had a problem w/those guys then why did they put them on the ballot.
Here’s the history of the rules, in case you feel like doing some reading:
Ones the bun and the other is the dawg. Simple really.
The Baseball Hall of Fame is as big a joke as the Rock N Roll Hall of Fame.
The funny thing about the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is people complaining about the new inductees, then suggesting even worse candidates (like prog rock, heavy metal, and70s corporate rock crap). Those people listen to too much classic rock radio, which has nothing to do with rock ‘n’ roll.
Wait… what? Heavy Metal and Prog Rock aren’t Rock and Roll?
“Those people listen to too much classic rock radio, which has nothing to do with rock ‘n’ roll.”
Classic rock isn’t rock and roll?
Rock ‘n ‘roll and “rock” are two different things. For one thing, rock ‘n’ roll swings. While I don’t care about the RNRHOF, rock ‘n’ roll is important to me and that classic rot stuff ain’t it. Foreigner? Boston? The Doobie Brothers? Chicago? The Eagles? Nope. Not rock ‘n’ roll. Not even close. Rock ‘n’ roll shakes up the status quo. It makes them nervous. Nobody ever got nervous listening to the Eagles.
Metal literally is based off of blues scales at in terms of structure and composition. See Black Sabbath. Which coincidentally is the heart of the structure of almost all Rock and Roll. It clearly belongs.
Schill is a HOFer. If freaking Blyleven made it, Schill should. I can’t believe Howard couldn’t get 5% to stay on. Agreed HOF is a joke.
First basemen get no respect.
Mcgriff is easily a hall of farmer in my books.
Carlos Delgado also fell off super fast. I don’t think Delgado and Howard are hof’ers, but they deserved a little more consideration.
I totally agree with you about Crime Dog.
Give me Will Clark and McGriff over Ortiz any day of the week
The HOF voters have been a joke for a long time. These are the same people who won’t vote for someone, just because it is their first time on the ballot regardless of how great they were
Who the hell thinks Jimmy Rollins is HOF ??
If you take a look at his advanced stats, there’s a solid argument. By WAR alone, he’s the 17th best SS in the history of baseball. His peripherals make him borderline. So I understand people not voting him in. Deeper look though and I feel like he should be.
I don’t think he’s a Hall of Famer, but I do hope he hangs around for 10 years so people can consider it.
I’m a lifelong Phillies fan and Rollins is a solid no for me.
Someone else mentioned Fred McGriff and they were spot on. That guy was awesome. The way he swung the bat and it circled over his head when he hit a HR was classic.
There are worse players than McGriff and Rollins that are in. I think they should both be there. McGriff over Rollins though.
Finally. We can stop talking about these low-lifes (minus Schilling). Goodbye Bonds. Won’t miss you. This is a great day for baseball (minus cheater Ortiz getting in-karma already got him no matter.
nope, schilling is a lowlife too.
hell, even worse, but of course you types pretend he got railroaded for his beliefs.
shoot, you guys probably think tebow got kicked out of the nfl for mental illness, don’t you?
4 HOF denied! Does anyone care about the HOF anymore. I got tired of it when Rose was banned, but now a full generations best talent have been excluded.
ksoze. Pete Rose is not getting into the Hall of Fame. Get over it.
What’s up with Jeff Kent?
I know he didn’t hit any of the major milestones, but he’s gotta be an all time top 10 offensive 2b. (Bit of a black hole position).
2400 hits, 375 hrs, 290 avg 550 slugging — that’s a hell of a lot better than Lou Whitaker.
Is Lou in?
I’m not going to look it up but geez I hope not
Nope — but he is basically the poster boy for “best of the rest” or “top of the snub list” if you prefer
That’s what I’ve been saying for years! Lol
Kent’s slugging percentage is .500, not .550.
Whitaker played 92 more games than Kent and had 430 more plate appearances. Yet Whitaker easily outdistanced Kent in terms of bWAR, 75.1 to 55.5. I’m not seeing where Kent was better Whitaker, never mind “a hell of a lot better.”
… at offence!
Ƭ̵̬̊ Player Formly Known As MousecopƬ̵̬̊
Hopefully they keep arod off the ballot completely from here going forward.
“ NEW YORK — At a news conference at Yankee Stadium this afternoon, David Ortiz stated definitively that he never used steroids or bought them, but acknowledged that he was “careless” when he was “buying supplements and vitamins over the counter,” and that he may be guilty of taking supplements that he didn’t know contained banned substances.”
Ortiz did the same thing Bonds did but the punishment is different. Scam.
bonds was a junky. Check out his head size with Pitt and with sf. A punk.
Bonds added 30 pounds of muscle in less than 12 months at age 30
Now be honest. Post the link and the date that article was posted (2009) as well as what time frame Ortiz was talking about (2003). When you have finished doing the minimum you should have done before trying to throw shade. Then post the links to the articles where Weiner (mentioned in the article you took that quote from), Selig, and Manfred talk about Ortiz’s test during the survey test being one of several false positives. Now look at Ortiz’s stats season by season from 2000 to 2016. https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/o/ortizda01.shtml 2000 was Ortiz’s first full season in the majors. Notice how all of his best seasons were AFTER they started testing in 2004? So, he got better AFTER he (and everybody else) had to be tested every season? Hmmm, wonder what that could mean?
All of them will eventually be voted in by their peers. The writers have little to no credibility and probably a few of them never really swa them play.
When Ken Rosenthal can be fired for criticizing the commissioner, what chance did Schilling really have?
It’s almost like actions (every so often) actually have consequences (sometimes).
A lot of boo hooing for guys who knowingly cheated (and another who said the people whose votes he needed should be murdered).
The idea that you get to do bad stuff and expect it to be ignored and that you should be rewarded as if it didn’t happen is a weird entitlement mentality.
If they had shown a bit more personal responsibility, they’d be in the HOF, but, they did not and they are not.
I misremember what you’re talking about.
Somehow the idea of first ballot in for Ortiz and last ballot outs for Bonds and Clemens happening together demonstrate the shaky moral ground that the writer/voters have to navigate. This is not a time they did it well. As to Schilling, no one is entitled to a vote. He doesn’t seem to understand that, and neither do his fans.
This just makes the HOF illegitimate.
Bonds and Clemens should be in the HOF!
Listening to Tom Verducci on MLB Network earlier made me wonder how he gets a vote along with a lot of these writers and their so called character clause and so-called suspicions of players.
Bud Selig being in the HOF is a travesty just as not having Bonds and Clemens not being in the HOF is so uncalled for to say the least.
Something is definitely wrong with this HOF voting system and it should be revamped immediately though nothing will be done as usual!
A sad day for MLB!
You haven’t READ the actual rules for voting that the MLB HOF supplies the writers for the BBWAA, have you? Maybe start there.
As long as cheater Pete Rose is not in the Hall of Fame, I am happy.
Clemens and Bonds should be in. They both were worthy before the PED issue.
Everyone agrees that Bonds and Clemens were good enough to get in had they not cheated. The issue is whether cheat itself is the disqualifier. There are solid arguments in each direction. Keep them out: cheating shows a lack of ethics and only good ambassadors for the game belong in. Let them in: the owners knew, the GMs knew, the other players knew, even a few of the media knew, and only a whistle-blower Jose Canseco had the balls to take the whispers and make it an issue that the country got mad about. Canseco was himself a user and he is a few sandwiches short of a full picnic basket, but I would argue he almost deserves to b in the Hall of Fame for shining light on the issue. Almost, but not. Because he waited until after his career and payday was over, and benefited from cheating himself.
I get that guys like bonds and Sosa are the most polarizing of the era
but everyone who watched baseball in that era saw Robbie Alomar’s, pudge Rodriguez’ and Kent Griffey’s necks disappear.
Everyone knows those guys juiced too. they just never got caught.
Pudge Rodriguez was named by Jose Canseco in his book for steroid use. Say what you want about Canseco, but he was 100% correct with his steroid reporting in the books.. They basically all ended up getting busted, outed, or failing a test…… except Pudge. And Magglio Ordonez went from perennial all-start to out of baseball within a year and a half.
anyone who watched pudge throughout his career can tell he was one of the most obvious physical changes — he looked like rey mysterio from wwe after he got jacked.
Interesting. I collect game used memorabilia. I have an 1989 Padres game used Alomar jersey in size 42, 1993 Blue Jays WS jersey in size 42, 1999 Indians jersey in size 46, and a Diamondbacks jersey in size 42. I have a 1989 Mariners game used Griffey jersey in size 48, a 1995 Mariners game used Griffey jersey in size 46, and a 1998 Mariners game used Griffey jersey in size 48. I don’t like the Reds jerseys, no offense Reds fans. Bonds started at a size 42 in 1986, was in a size 50 in 2000, and was in a size 54 in 2005 and 2006.
Andruw Jones and Scott rolen should he in 2 of my favorite players ever
Rolen is for me. Elite d and he had a long fairly consistent career- most 3b fall off a cliff after 30
Jones, not so much for me. If he got hit by lightening at the age of 30 and never played again he would have probably gotten in. Back end of his career is not worthy.
He didnt get hit by lightning he got hit by pastery. But the guy is the best defensive outfielder by a wide margin on The defensive metrics and he did have 430+ HRs and 1200 RBIs and has some playoff records.
Yes Andruw Jones should be in.
And pastries too!
I think it’s fair to consider how much steroids apparently played an accumulation of numbers. Bonds went from somebody who was going to make the Hall of Fame anyway to an absolute freak/monster. Clemens also may have made the Hall of Fame prior to his steroid use, but it’s amazing how he was on a natural decline and then all of a sudden started putting up unbelievable numbers even at an advanced age. Sosa also went from good to freak/monster. Whereas David Ortiz pretty much maintained a very high level of performance with or without steroids, so that may be the argument for him.
Schilling being excluded is complete political bull crap, really disturbing.
The issue of PED’s has complicated, and will continue to complicate the voting process for the HOF. Integrity, Sportmanship, and Character are right there in the rules. So it is not just about the player’s stats no matter how much we might want it to be. Also not a black and white issue, as in let them all in or keep them all out. It is clear that most HOF voters are drawing a line somewhere in between. No player who has admitted to using PED’s has made the HOF, yet. So unless something changes within the next 9 years, A-Rod isn’t getting in.
Bonds and Clemens are strongly tied to PED use despite no admission to use from them. Obviously a majority of voters are willing to look past that and vote for them. Yet there is a large enough minority that are not willing to look past it. And that is just it, to be a HOF’er you have to have a large majority of voters to agree that you are to get in. Not an easy threshold even if you are not tied to PED’s. Now it is on to the Era committees to decide, but that won’t be any easier. Those committees do include current HOF members who generally are harder on PED users than the general baseball public.
Some will point to Ortiz getting in despite being named in the 2003 report. But that was much earlier in his career, well before he put up the majority of his HOF stats. He also never failed a test once testing started in 2004. Plus, the 2003 report cannot be verified so we really do not know whether the leaked report is actually accurate. Plus, the commissioner cast doubts regarding whether or not the tests were even accurate. More than enough doubt to get Ortiz over the 75% threshold.
Which makes the case of Sammy Sosa interesting. Sosa put up stats that warrant HOF consideration. He was widely assumed to have used steroids but never admitted it and there was never any hard evidence, former teammates or associates ratting him out. The only other hint was the same 2003 report that Ortiz was named in.
So yes, complicated, and it is not likely to get any less complicated anytime soon.
Whether Sosa used PEDs or not (and he surely likely did), there was the corked bat incident to consider, too. He was a cheater, and he’ll have to settle for the Hall of Asterisks.
I think the best thing that will come from this travesty is real change in how players are elected. There are a lot of great baseball writers but there are just as many horrible ones that don’t know the game and hold grudges against players. We need a new mousetrap.
After Lee Smith didn’t get the requisite 5% his first ballot I got a lot of flak for calling him a definite Hall of Famer.
I think closers get the shaft big time. In my book Billy Wagner is a no doubter especially after retiring after arguably his best season.
I think Joe Nathan and Jonathan Papelbon got the shaft. I’m not saying they should be in the Hall of Fame but to not even get 5% of the vote is a joke. These guys were the best for 10+ years.
Jonathan Papelbon in HOF is LOL.
12 seasons 23.3 war.
Kevin Brown (2.1%)
19 seasons, 68.2 WAR
Johan Santana (2.4%)
12 seasons 51.1 WAR
Orel Hershiser (11.2%, 4.4%)
18 seasons 51.3 WAR
Fernando Valenzuela (6.2%, 3.8%)
17 seasons 37.3 WAR
All of those of Paperbon. Closers are like field goal kickers in NFL, they are not the MVP, ever. Now guys who were both starters and closers, they could be slam dunk HOFers. E.g., Eckersly, Smoltz. But other than Mariano Rivera, every other closer is at best a borderline case. Finally, Wagner was much better than Papelbon.
You’ll almost never be able to make a compelling case for a closer by using WAR.
If you were the most dominant closer in the league for 10+ years…you deserve consideration.
Papelbon isn’t a HOF. But Trevor Hoffman is in the HOF w/ 28 WAR. Your comparisons really aren’t apt.
& to add to that using Rivera as the minimum bar a closer needs to get in the HOF is beyond stupid.
That’s like saying every player worse than Ted Williams isn’t a HOF’er. You simply just won’t represent an important position. If you want to make the bar a little higher than position players—OK. But they’re an important part of the game.
& I think moving forward things like saves shouldn’t be the only consideration w/ how the game is moving. Teams bring their best pitchers in the 8th inning of games now if that’s where they deem them most needed.
Love the comparison, I actually think it’s pretty accurate. Rivera was one heck of a closer so saying he’s the minimum for a closer is unfair to closers. Rivera is probably a top 3 closer all-time. Ted Williams could hit any pitching. I think he would succeed even in today’s game because he could adjust to anything. He would pull the ball until they played a severe pull shift, and then when they played a severe pull shift he would push the ball.
FredMcGriff for the HOF
@manny. You are comparing starting pitchers to closers who will have less WAR. Bruce Sutter = 24.1 career WAR (in the HOF). Lee Smith 28.9 career WAR (in the HOF). While I never really cared for Papelbon as a human being he was elite as a closer over a 10 year period (low career WAR of 23.3) and Nathan was almost as good he had a couple so so years mixed in over the 10 year period (26.7 career WAR). I know there are numerous commenters on here that don’t like WAR stats. For me it’s just a tool for comparison. Personally I think Papelbon was actually more dominant than Nathan. I agree with you on Wagner he was better than Papelbon and it’s laughable he isn’t already in the HOF.
I think closers get the shaft big time. In my book Billy Wagner is a no doubter
I agree. In the modern era (post-multiple inning guys), Wagner is, at minimum, the #3 best closer. And an argument could easily be made that he was a better pitcher than Hoffman, even though Hoffman got a ton of saves,
MLB does full testing in 2005 by 2007 Clemens/Bonds/Sosa retire. They used and some got caught others didn’t. Don’t use the hand/eye coordination excuse. Hit harder, run faster and throw gas yeah you got and advantage over the other players.
Everyone was juicing. The guys that got screwed were the quadruple A all-stars that’s it.
Everybody loved that era, including the hypocritical journalists.
The beacons of ethics that they are!
Not everyone was juicing. Maybe half used them once or twice or even a few times A small minority used them consistently.
Bonds, Clemens and Sosa absolutely should never have an opportunity to get into the HOF.
Schilling was a great pitcher who absolutely is getting screwed because he is a big mouth and the controlling group (sports writers and the league as a whole) don’t like his politics. Nothing else.
What a bunch of dirt bags they are.
Watch these comments will be deleted or comments will be close in a few hours. Bank on it!!!
I don’t think Sosa’s a good enough player to be in the HOF w steroids propping him up. Clemens and Bonds are.
You can reduce their production significantly and put them in. Sammy Sosa was a good player—-but he wasn’t at that level. Corked bat and all…..
Take a look at a pic of old Slammin Sammy nowadays if you need a laugh.
Funny how that didn’t happen at all. Hope you enjoy your own anger and paranoia because it sure isn’t a joy to be around.
When you ask the voters to remove you from the ballot, you shouldn’t be surprised when they do. Its 3 days later and your comment is still there and comments are still open. Guess we couldn’t “bank on it”.
You should really fix this article to mention that Bonds’s conviction was overturned in 2015. It’s really not fair to mention the initial conviction without mentioning that it was overturned.
I’m really so sick of “woke” and “cancel culture” thrown out there everytime someone disagrees with an outcome or view. Give. It. A. Rest. Are we still all in 3rd grade?
Anyway, agree or disagree there is a morals clause written into the instructions for voters:
“Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.”
A voter is well within their rights to not vote on someone they feel doesn’t meet that criteria.
Bonds and Clemens thought they were too famous and untouchable well they found out different. They knew the potential consequences unfair or not. They rolled the dice and lost.
No one is bigger than the game (something ARod is finding out) or above the law so to speak. Yes rules and records are made to be broken but even then there are limits. Rose, Bonds, Clemens and others brazenly broke important rules on gambling on his owm team in Rose’s case and with Bonds putting up video game stats and Clemens pitching like a 25 yr-old in his 40s. Those things mess with the integrity of the game in a willfull and gratuitous way.
Personally I think if you drop steroids into any era of the game players would’ve used them. I don’t care what the old-timers say.
Ortiz is a first ballot HOF?
Well it’s a definite sea change for past, present and future DHs. The first DH elected first ballot. So the voters felt an offensive only player was more deserving than any position player or pitcher. Interesting. Especially considering his own association with steroids.
“woke” and “canel culture” are all right wingers have, since they can’t actually back up anything they say.
of course, they created both, then complain when folks who aren’t them use it, like the good little hypocrites every one of them are.
John Rocker fan club
Curt Shilling won every award for character during his playing days, and ironically is not being voted in due to his character.
No, he isn’t being voted in upon his own request.
MLB HOF will be hypocritical forever. Some cheaters and scumbags get in and remain, others don’t.
Speechless. It’s now been officially confirmed that the press votes for those who play nicey-nice with them, and they use PEDs as an excuse. In fact, by electing CONFIRMED PED USER Ortiz, we now know that PEDs has nothing to do with it, What a damn joke.
Bonds isn’t in because he was mean to journalists lol
Bonds isn’t in because he cheated and admitted that he cheated.
Really surprised about Texiera
The big winner today was Mark Buehrle. Is he a Hall of Famer? No. But I’m happy he gets to stay on the ballot for year #3. He and Andy Pettitte have similar career WAR, among other numbers. He was a personal favorite during that era of baseball. Glad to see Jimmy Rollins around 10% also.
Have seen some variation of the “You can’t tell the story of baseball without Barry Bonds” argument a few times…
Go ahead and “tell the story” of Barry Bonds and the rest. You don’t have to HONOR them to tell the story.
Also, the “they were already HOF’ers BEFORE they cheated” argument…while likely true in the case of Bonds and Clemens…here’s the thing…
If you already own 15 cars and then steal a car, the cops don’t say “well, he already had so many cars, he didn’t really need to steal this one, therefore it’s OK”.
It just makes it even more of a needless shame and even more of a stupid nonsensical act for them to do it.
As they should of & in my opinion Bonds, Clemens & Sosa don’t belong in the Baseball Hall of Fame instead they belong in the Hall of Shame.
How about for the known steroid users? There are a number of players that are in the HOF who are known to have used steroids. Are they beyond that? Do they belong in the Hall of Shame? If you say no, you have some issues. Bonds won 7 MVP’s and hit over 760 homers, on top of the fact that he was winning gold gloves and becoming the only player in the 500 HR-500 SB club. Those are only a few of the many accolades he earned
He also earned NOT getting voted into the HOF. He has even less shot with the Veterans as he did the Writers.
Ironically, Bonds and Clemens getting into the Hall of Fame will now be left to an even older group of voters. Doesn’t look good. Too bad.
take out known amphetamine users from the hall!
The idea of voting Ortiz in while keeping Bonds & Clemens out is beyond words, irony doesn’t even begin to cover it
Peart of the game
Beltran looks like a decent chance to get elected of the new guys for next year’s ballot. The rest probably won’t even make it to a second year on the ballot.
Schilling belongs. The Hall is a joke.
Schilling actually requested that he not be voted in. He got mad and went on a rant, and then asked the writers to not vote him in
schilling is a joke.
there, fixed it for you.
Yet willie mays and hank Aaron took “greenies” which was an PED during their time of playing. They literally said that in a interview with bob costas and having bob gibson in the interview also. So those guys “cheated” also. Ty Cobb was a blantly racist yet in today’s era they would’ve had his name not on the ballot because of who he was personally. Pete rose broke one of the oldest rules in the game of no gambling in baseball. Bonds and Clemens won’t go in besides their numbers. David Ortiz name to the hall was a big head scratcher because he was in that mess also.
Those not in the hall coz of roids ( as opposed to the ones that are already in ) singing along with Neil Young … “ I’ve seen the needle and the damage done ..”
They should all be in. Bonds Clemens all of em
Bonds, Alex, McGuire and Clemens cheated and should have never been considered for the Hall of Fame. I’m happy that those fools are no longer on the ballot. Alex will also fall as well and should. Those here that feel these fools should have made the cut have cheated in life and find it acceptable, hence the outcry. Those fools got what they deserved and I hope that any other committee will do the same as the HOF is not a place for cheaters.
figured the comments would be a dumbster fire of cons pretending KKKurt didn’t get in because of politics instead of being a juicer, and clearly proven right.
not sorry you guys can’t accept reality, but no player in the history of baseball goes from league average at 33 to all elite without steroids, and that’s a fact.
besides, none of you bothered to point our KKKurt stopped whining about roids once he started playing with roid monkeys, and didn’t bother saying anything about them in 2005 when dubya held his witch hunt over them (funny how steroids only became a problem to cons once it came out iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and dubya needed a distraction. of course, like the good hypocrite he is, george kept all the money steroids got him from the rangers sale).
You must enjoy living a miserable life of hate and resentment.
Schilling, who had a career WAR of 20 points above the average Hall of Famer, is black-balled because he practiced freedom of speech. The only thing controversial about his comments is that they didn’t fit the liberal media’s narrative. Shame on those who voted.
So, you don’t think his message of why liberals in the media should be murdered fit the liberal media’s narrative?
You might be on to something there.
“The simple truth is that Barry Bonds is the story of the steroid era. He is a player whose physical gifts knew no limits — and whose desire for something beyond greatness took him to a place he never needed to go. His greed mirrored the league’s: the ceaseless pursuit of bigger, better, more. This is the history that demands to be told, and there is no better place to tell it than in the plaque room at the Hall of Fame.” written by Jeff Passan from ESPN
“This is ridiculous! Why should people who knew full well that what they were doing was wrong and would result in them not being elected to the HOF if they got caught suffer any consequences for their willful actions!!!”
I’m all for cheaters not getting in, but Ortiz definitely did cheat. Can’t have it both ways without looking foolish.
Then how do you explain that Ortiz’s best years came after standardized testing started? You look more foolish calling Ortiz a cheater.
Cheating is cheating. You can’t rationalize it away. It’s irrelevant how he did before or after. The fact is he used illegal substances. Period.
There is no substantive proof that Ortiz used steroids either knowingly or unknowingly. There are allegations, but no proof. The results of the 2003 survey tests were never revealed. There are just unnamed sources that said he was even though neither he nor his agent were ever informed of that in 2004 when the other players that tested positive were told. He was not named in the Mitchell report. Ortiz never admitted to using steroids. Bonds did while under oath. His admission is proof. Bonds jersey going from a 42 to a 54 is not proof, but it is a pretty good indication. Bonds cap going from 7 1/8 to 7 3/4 is a pretty good indication too. Especially since he had an Afro as a rookie and was bald at the end of his career.
Their biggest crime is polluting the Baseball record book. What would Hank Aaron’s and Willie Mays’ lifetime totals be on PEDs? They’ve dishonored Baseball and the greats that came before them.
there needs to be a correction/addition added to the Bonds story. The Obstruction of Justice conviction was over turned by a 10-1 margin in the circuit court. the 10-1 basically means it wasn’t even close and the conviction was more likely a show.
Bonds should be in the HOF, as should the other known and alleged PED users (if they qualify). Main reason is that it was so wide spread that much of the time they were probably playing against many PED users at the time.
Hitters still need to hit, pitchers still need to hit their spots even if they’re fastball went from 90 to 95.
Those that were not though… mad props to you. I do think those that never had any suspicion should get a bit of a bump in the voting.
I am not sure the percentages but my guess is that about two thirds of the hitters were on steroids and maybe half the pitchers. So not sure anyone had a real advantage over the other. Plus MLB turned a blind eye to it all.
Discovering any real advantage to using PEDS would require a thorough scientific study, an alien concept on this site, where most prefer anecdotal evidence and illogical conjecture.
There are only 9 judges on a Court of Appeals circuit panel. It was just 3 that voted in his case and they were split 2-1.
Bonds was both named in the Mitchell report and admitted in court that he used PED. He tried to claim he didn’t know that they were, but he had a personal chef both at home and traveling with him for years because he didn’t trust the team chefs or the cooks in the places they stayed on the road. Do you really believe he was allowing someone to inject him with something he didn’t know what it was?
correct and not correct.
You are talking about what happened in 2013 were was a small panel of three.
In 2015 the 9th circuit panel of 11 reversed the conviction based on various reasons
You are both wrong. A panel is 3 judges and there are 29 total on the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals. The Bonds appeal was decided by a 3 judge panel. It was not an en banc review.
A-Rod won’t see induction via the BBWAA if Bonds and Clemens didn’t.
I’m glad Sosa didn’t get in . he was definitely on roids. Bonds I’m ok with as even tho he had good seasons he was still had that shadow over him about steroids.
I personally think if u get caught taking steroids then no hof or records for u
I think Jimmy Rollins deserves to get in. Maybe not in the same class as some HOF shortstops but I assert the Harold Baines standard.
Even being from Chicago I can’t believe Baines got in. And I love the guy, was class act and teammate, but they have let a bunch of people in who were not best of all time or even among the best of their own era. I think they should be more strict going forward, rather than let more players in who are comparable to the weakest who got in. Lou Whitaker had a career WAR about twice Baines, how that guy is not in is insane.
YEAH, Sweet Lou should definitely be in the Hall.
I love how the writers get to pick and chose who the cheaters where and weren’t. Smh this is sad for the sport of baseball. The same people saying sportsmanship is part of HOF just let in a guy who couldn’t hit 20 HR’s in Minnesota but all of a sudden went wild in Boston.
Went wild in Boston after testing was in place for PED. Meaning he had his best years clean. Unlike Bonds and Clemens.
You can see both sides of the HOF case for Bonds, he was great but was not honest. But you can’t deny this… Bonds on roids was the baddest hitter ever to pick up a bat, hands down. I still remember his homer off Percival in the WS, absolutely crushing it, and being able to read the lips of Tim Salmon in the opposing dugout “I’ve never seen one hit that far”. He will forever be remembered as the best hitter of all time by those who saw him, even if that would not have been the case without the roids. He entertained the mob, gotta give him that.
Shut out of the Hall of Fame, yes. Shut out of the museum, no. If you’ve ever been to Cooperstown, you know there are two different sections of it. You have the Hall of Fame part with the plagues and busts, and you have the museum part with every thing you can think of from Mickey Mantle’s locker to Babe Ruth’s fur coat to the ball Kerry Wood struck out 20 batters with in ‘98. It’s not like they’re completely erased from baseball history. They just didn’t in the HoF, and in my opinion, rightfully so.
I still don’t understand why you would not vote for a guy one year then vote for him the next year For me personally, you either do belong in the Hall of Fame or you don’t. If I think you do, I’m not going to make you wait a year or two because “reasons.” Similarly, if I think you don’t, unless you end world hunger or show up to my kid’s birthday party or something like that I’m not changing my mind no matter how long.
I think it is right to not allow anyone who used PEDs into the Hall of Fame.
Man, the list of high-profile first-time candidates makes me feel old. It was with that era/group of players I started to become a real baseball fan. Time definitely flies.
Rubios or ???
Aaaaah… Love Rubio’s but I gotta go with a Tin Fish fish taco along with a draft beer.
There was a huge brouhaha on the Sirius MLB channel today about whether the HOF voters got it right; does baseball need to be the moral authority? Is it really America’s game. I say yes. Baseball has to stand for doing things the right way, otherwise why penalize the Black Sox players or Pete Rose or the Astros for their actions? Bonds, Clemens and some of the others were already great. They didn’t need to cheat. But no, they chose to cheat their fans, other teams and themselves eventually, for sake of what? More money, more fame? More records? That’s still a mystery and they haven’t ever admitted they were wrong. Players who are idolized by fans need to stand as good role models and ambassadors of the game and their greater communities. Think Hank Aaron and Jackie Robinson. Those who can’t play by the rules should pay the penalty. HOF voters just acknowledged that yesterday.
The answer is yes. Its in the voting instructions. Break the laws of the land and the rules off the game and you don’t belong in the HOF. Its that simple.
Rose broke the one and only rule that is in every single clubhouse in professional baseball. Then he lied about it for a decade after he got caught. Then he agreed to a permanent ban. Rose doesn’t belong in the HOF either.
Bonds and Clemens will get in after they are dead, but Sosa will never be enshrined.
The Veterans Committee by then will forgive and forget by then but now they will not sniff the Hall…
Should they be in the Hall, as Bonds and Clemens my answer is yes even though I disagree with their usage of Steroids but Sosa does not in my personal opinion.
Yes, Sosa had great moments with the Cubs but at the end and afterwards he just became a joke…
I am a Cubs fan writing this…
None of them will get in. Current members of the HOF came out in opposition to them getting in. 50 of the 75 living members signed a letter saying that they should not even be on the ballot.
They don’t belong and they have even less chance of getting in via the veterans committee. Now they can fade into the past.
The greatest hitter of all time not being in the Hall is disappointing.
also the greatest cheater….
If Correa or Altuve end up having HOF career numbers, do you see them getting snubbed like the majority of the PED era guys up for debate here have been? Or do you think that a future committee will overlook that, arguing that the player’s career stats trump one spell of cheating?
I have never understood the point of having writers vote… and then when they drop off the ballot due to lack of support the Veterans committee can just put them in anyways. It sounds like the BWAA voting step is completely unnecessary since the veterans get the final say in the end anyways. Why not just eliminate the middle man and let the veterans committee vote from the start.