With the Hall of Fame’s announcement this afternoon that David Ortiz was the only player elected by the Baseball Writers Association of America this year, the path to induction via the writers’ ballot has officially closed for four of the most notable players in recent history. Each of Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Curt Schilling and Sammy Sosa has exhausted their ten years on the ballot and will no longer be eligible for consideration by the BBWAA.
Bonds and Clemens have two of the greatest statistical resumes in major league history and would’ve been first-ballot Hall of Famers had it not been for their ties to performance-enhancing drugs. Bonds is the all-time leader in career home runs (762). Among position players, he ranks second all-time behind Babe Ruth in FanGraphs measure of Wins Above Replacement. Baseball Reference has Bonds and Ruth tied for first in career position player value (before accounting for Ruth’s contributions as a pitcher). Bonds won seven MVP awards and was a 14-time All-Star.
Clemens, meanwhile, has a strong case as the most accomplished pitcher in the game’s history. An 11-time All-Star and seven-time Cy Young award winner, he appeared in 24 MLB seasons and won seven ERA titles. He ranks third in career strikeouts (4,672), ninth in pitcher wins (354) and is third among pitchers (excluding Ruth) in BRef’s WAR metric.
Each of Bonds and Clemens have a laundry list of accolades, but their non-inductions are obviously not about any flaws in their numbers. Both players, instead, are left outside the Hall because of their ties to performance-enhancing drugs. Both players were named as alleged steroid users in Senator George Mitchell’s 2007 report. Each of Bonds and Clemens were summoned to testify as part of Congressional hearings on PED usage in baseball; Bonds was later convicted on an obstruction of justice charge for giving an evasive answer during his testimony.
Whether to include alleged steroid users in the Hall of Fame has been a subject of (often bitter) debate amongst fans and writers. “Sportsmanship” and “character” are among the factors the Hall includes in its instructed criteria for voters, and those terms have been leveraged to make both moral arguments and questions about the authenticity of those players’ numbers to support steroid users’ exclusions from the Hall. Enough voters remained steadfast in their objection to including those implicated with PED’s to keep either Bonds or Clemens from accruing enough late-ballot momentum to get across the 75% threshold for induction. Both players finished in the 65% – 66% range on their final years on the ballot — a small but obviously insufficient bump relative to last season’s 61% – 62% marks.
Schilling appeared in parts of 20 MLB seasons. A six-time All-Star, he never won a Cy Young but finished as a runner-up on three separate occasions. Schilling “only” won 216 career games, but he owned a 3.46 ERA over 3261 innings. His 3116 strikeouts place 15th on the all-time list. Among the top 14, Clemens is the only player not enshrined in the Hall of Fame.
Yet Schilling has seen dwindling support in recent years in the wake of a series of controversial public statements. As it became clear he was unlikely to be elected by the BBWAA, Schilling requested to have his name removed from this year’s ballot. That wasn’t granted, although he did see a 12-point drop in vote share between 2021 and 2022 after his push to be removed from consideration. Schilling appeared on 58.6% of ballots this year.
Sosa, somewhat curiously, never had the same level of support as any of Bonds, Clemens or Schilling. He received just 18.5% of the vote this year and never threatened election during his time on the ballot. Despite being one of just nine players to exceed 600 career home runs, Sosa’s career .273/.344/.534 slash line “only” checked in 24 percentage points above the league average by measure of wRC+. Moreover, he wasn’t a highly-regarded defender. But Sosa was one of the sport’s most famous and productive sluggers at his peak, hitting an astounding 332 home runs between 1998-2003 (more than 55 per season).
No doubt contributing to his dearth of support is that Sosa reportedly failed a 2003 survey test for performance-enhancing drugs. As Jay Jaffe of FanGraphs recently explored, though, MLB commissioner Rob Manfred later cast some doubt about the reliability of those results (which had been intended to remain anonymous). Ortiz also reportedly failed that same survey test, but enough voters looked on those results with skepticism to elect him on the first ballot. Sosa was never suspended for a PED test in his career, although he was hit with an eight-game ban in 2003 for corking his bat.
Each of Bonds, Clemens, Schilling and Sosa will need to rely on one of the Era Committees if they’re now to gain induction. Those committees have tended to be more favorable to candidates than has the BBWAA, although it remains to be seen how they’ll approach this particular group of highly controversial candidates.
As far as returning candidates go (full results available here), Scott Rolen jumped from 52.9% to 63.2% in his fifth year. Todd Helton (4th year) and Billy Wagner (7th year) each eclipsed 50%. Andruw Jones and Gary Sheffield both landed in the low-40% range, while Jeff Kent, Manny Ramirez, Omar Vizquel, Andy Pettitte, Bobby Abreu, Mark Buehrle and Torii Hunter received less than 30% of support. (Vizquel’s vote share was cut nearly in half after separate domestic violence and sexual harassment allegations were levied against him within the past thirteen months).
Among first-time candidates, only Alex Rodriguez (34.3%) and Jimmy Rollins (9.4%) received more than the 5% necessary to remain on the ballot for future consideration. As with Bonds and Clemens, Rodríguez has obvious Hall of Fame statistics but PED ties that’ll hamper his path to induction. Joe Nathan, Tim Lincecum, Ryan Howard, Mark Teixeira, Justin Morneau, Jonathan Papelbon, Prince Fielder, A.J. Pierzynski, Carl Crawford and Jake Peavy fell shy of the 5% threshold and dropped off the ballot, as did second-year candidate Tim Hudson.
Lmao such a joke. Unfortunately people couldnt seperate politics from performance. Travesty from the MLB. Hall of Fame. Not Hall of Virtue Signaling or Hall of Morality
Not voting Bonds in will cause him to be talked about 10x more, they created a talking peace, a kind of martyr. Sort of like Pete Rose.
I guess the writers are giving themselves something to do for the rest of their careers, call it financial security.
Best ballplayer of my generation bar none.
No idea how Ortiz (& Selig for that matter) gets in while Bonds & the Rocket do not. Pretty convoluted message.
Playing the “game” and being well liked by others still gets you a long way in this world.
100% agree w you though. Bonds was special.
His numbers are just out of hand.
I hit his BRef link to refresh my memory. In case anyone has forgotten: 762 HR, 514 SB, 2227 runs, 688 IBB (lol)…just goes on & on 77 triples, 601 doubles…8 Gold Gloves. Mercy. Did everything you could ask of a position player.
Honestly I think you could give Mike Trout a running IV drip of Testosterone and HGH and he doesn’t put up a season like Bonds did. Just absolutely insane.
@jblgz12
Right. 90% of baseball, especially with hitting, is a head game. If you don’t have the right approach you’ll struggle. The second biggest part of hitting is mechanics. Bonds’s mechanics were so smooth, and his mental game was so strong. So often I see people who are the strongest players on their team or in their league who can’t hit near as well as someone who isn’t as strong but has a stronger mental game and better mechanics.
His (22 year long) career OPS has a decimal point.
Because Trout would be dead from IV drips that of IM medications..? Ha. Bonds was insanely good, steroids or not. They are not miracle drugs that turn average Joe into Mickey Mantle. They help athletes get stronger and recover faster. It’s all rather silly- baseball players have been cheating since the game was created. Any way possible.
You don’t think the great Mike Trout could take a little HGH drip!
Meant to not be taken literally of course. But I don’t care how many steroids you gave him—I don’t think anyone in the game today would hit like Bonds. He was just different.
Only three consistent positions for steroids.
Vote no one in who your gut says used steroids.
Vote anyone in if they played at high enough level [optional:and were a good ambassador for game].
Vote them in unless actually suspended for steroids. [Optional: or vote anyone in who was not suspended twice. Sorry Manny you are deservedly screwed, anyway he had fun and made millions.]
Schilling belongs in. He is a bigot, no doubt about it. But so were lots of the players from past generations. And there is no evidence that Schilling did bigoted things while a player, only afterward.
Tony La Russa is in the HOF. He was a sharp guy, mostly still is. Does anyone belief that he did not know Mark McGwire and Jose Conseco were juicing?
Schilling asked to not be on the ballot. The voters obliged by not voting for him. That is on him, 100%.
With the increase in votes he was seeing each year, he would have likely made it this year. Being an idiot has its downside. His is not being in the HOF.
Must be a lost generation. “And Bonds head swelled ten times larger that day…”
Bonds admitted cheating. Ortiz didn’t. Other than a false positive on a test that didn’t count, Ortiz never failed a test and they were testing in all of his best seasons. 2004 and on Ortiz was incredible and 2004 is when testing started.
Bonds is a laughing stock. A sure fire HOF player that let his ego get the best of him. He will never get in. Its really that simple. Just like Rose.
Neither are martyrs. They are pariahs.
just glad Ortiz got about double the votes of A-Rod.
If there’s one person from the ballot that I really didn’t want to get in, it was A-Roid. Used PED’s and is a complete jerk
He’s a great broadcaster tho!
Even leads, amirite?
/s
Horrible on tv.
I’ll agree to that, I have been pleasantly surprised by his broadcasting.
There should be zero debate about schilling. He’s clearly not in the hof for off field reasons. Others if you want to debate, whatever. It’s just a shame that every year we end up focusing on who didn’t make it or who didn’t vote for Jeter, etc. instead of focusing on who did make it. Some of these writers are such arrogant bozos they shouldn’t have a vote. At least make the voting viewable to the public
Who are these voters who think they should be the judge of character and sportsmanship? Sad day for baseball. Selig gets in but…smh
I don’t think they necessarily believe they should be the judge of character, but the hall tells them they are and then gives them a vague definition to work with. I think this is more about the writers passing that kind of judgement to the hall’s own committees.
That’s literally what they’re supposed to do. The baseball HOF is unique in that sense; a person’s character off the field has always been a consideration. Getting a personal bust in Cooperstown takes more than great stats.
All of these guys will be represented in the Hall. Bonds will be seen in Cooperstown, as will Clemens, Curt, Sammy, AROD, etc. They just don’t get a bust in the special, VIP room.
You don’t have to like it. But don’t act like it’s not how it’s always been. As time goes on, the people who vote will change. Sentiments will change. I bet Clemens and Bonds get in at some point. AROD may take longer because he’s still in the public spotlight. But their character problems will cost them time. As they should because that’s what the baseball hall is all about
I read somewhere that Rose will likely get inducted post humously, sp?, so he can’t embarrass the Hall with any scumbag antics and they won’t have to pay that ridiculous pension hofers get. I bet it happens and I wonder if the same won’t be true for bonds Clemens and aroid
Are you new to baseball and how the Hall of Fame voting works?
So all I gotta do is take some steroids and I’ll be one of the best players to ever play the game? That’s the only thing that would make me great? Dang, I really took the wrong path in life.
Sad part is Bonds n Clemens were bad *#s with out the peds. Schilling was a hit job by straight bull….
Absolute joke. Won’t let Bonds in because of alleged PED usage but Ortiz who actually tested positive for PED’s gets in on first shot. Yeah…makes sense. Clown show.
Alleged? Seriously? He admitted that he was a user.
Bonds & Clemens will eventually be in the Hall once it’s determined they’ve been sufficiently shamed in public.
This was their chance on the ballot.
… veterans committees.
Yea. Fair. I don’t see it though.
It’s a tricky call. I grew up loving Red Sox era Clemens. It’s a shame, but I certainly see your point.
If Major League Baseball had a problem w/those guys then why did they put them on the ballot.
Here’s the history of the rules, in case you feel like doing some reading:
baseballhall.org/hall-of-famers/rules/voting-rules…
Ones the bun and the other is the dawg. Simple really.
Well, bye.
The Baseball Hall of Fame is as big a joke as the Rock N Roll Hall of Fame.
The funny thing about the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is people complaining about the new inductees, then suggesting even worse candidates (like prog rock, heavy metal, and70s corporate rock crap). Those people listen to too much classic rock radio, which has nothing to do with rock ‘n’ roll.
Wait… what? Heavy Metal and Prog Rock aren’t Rock and Roll?
“Those people listen to too much classic rock radio, which has nothing to do with rock ‘n’ roll.”
Classic rock isn’t rock and roll?
Rock ‘n ‘roll and “rock” are two different things. For one thing, rock ‘n’ roll swings. While I don’t care about the RNRHOF, rock ‘n’ roll is important to me and that classic rot stuff ain’t it. Foreigner? Boston? The Doobie Brothers? Chicago? The Eagles? Nope. Not rock ‘n’ roll. Not even close. Rock ‘n’ roll shakes up the status quo. It makes them nervous. Nobody ever got nervous listening to the Eagles.
Metal literally is based off of blues scales at in terms of structure and composition. See Black Sabbath. Which coincidentally is the heart of the structure of almost all Rock and Roll. It clearly belongs.
Schill is a HOFer. If freaking Blyleven made it, Schill should. I can’t believe Howard couldn’t get 5% to stay on. Agreed HOF is a joke.
First basemen get no respect.
Mcgriff is easily a hall of farmer in my books.
Carlos Delgado also fell off super fast. I don’t think Delgado and Howard are hof’ers, but they deserved a little more consideration.
I totally agree with you about Crime Dog.
Give me Will Clark and McGriff over Ortiz any day of the week
jaysjournal.com/2022/01/25/blue-jays-carlos-delgad…
The HOF voters have been a joke for a long time. These are the same people who won’t vote for someone, just because it is their first time on the ballot regardless of how great they were
Who the hell thinks Jimmy Rollins is HOF ??
If you take a look at his advanced stats, there’s a solid argument. By WAR alone, he’s the 17th best SS in the history of baseball. His peripherals make him borderline. So I understand people not voting him in. Deeper look though and I feel like he should be.
I don’t think he’s a Hall of Famer, but I do hope he hangs around for 10 years so people can consider it.
I’m a lifelong Phillies fan and Rollins is a solid no for me.
Someone else mentioned Fred McGriff and they were spot on. That guy was awesome. The way he swung the bat and it circled over his head when he hit a HR was classic.
There are worse players than McGriff and Rollins that are in. I think they should both be there. McGriff over Rollins though.
Finally. We can stop talking about these low-lifes (minus Schilling). Goodbye Bonds. Won’t miss you. This is a great day for baseball (minus cheater Ortiz getting in-karma already got him no matter.
nope, schilling is a lowlife too.
hell, even worse, but of course you types pretend he got railroaded for his beliefs.
shoot, you guys probably think tebow got kicked out of the nfl for mental illness, don’t you?
4 HOF denied! Does anyone care about the HOF anymore. I got tired of it when Rose was banned, but now a full generations best talent have been excluded.
ksoze. Pete Rose is not getting into the Hall of Fame. Get over it.
What’s up with Jeff Kent?
I know he didn’t hit any of the major milestones, but he’s gotta be an all time top 10 offensive 2b. (Bit of a black hole position).
2400 hits, 375 hrs, 290 avg 550 slugging — that’s a hell of a lot better than Lou Whitaker.
Is Lou in?
I’m not going to look it up but geez I hope not
Nope — but he is basically the poster boy for “best of the rest” or “top of the snub list” if you prefer
That’s what I’ve been saying for years! Lol
Kent’s slugging percentage is .500, not .550.
Whitaker played 92 more games than Kent and had 430 more plate appearances. Yet Whitaker easily outdistanced Kent in terms of bWAR, 75.1 to 55.5. I’m not seeing where Kent was better Whitaker, never mind “a hell of a lot better.”
… at offence!
Hopefully they keep arod off the ballot completely from here going forward.
“ NEW YORK — At a news conference at Yankee Stadium this afternoon, David Ortiz stated definitively that he never used steroids or bought them, but acknowledged that he was “careless” when he was “buying supplements and vitamins over the counter,” and that he may be guilty of taking supplements that he didn’t know contained banned substances.”
Ortiz did the same thing Bonds did but the punishment is different. Scam.
bonds was a junky. Check out his head size with Pitt and with sf. A punk.
Bonds added 30 pounds of muscle in less than 12 months at age 30
Now be honest. Post the link and the date that article was posted (2009) as well as what time frame Ortiz was talking about (2003). When you have finished doing the minimum you should have done before trying to throw shade. Then post the links to the articles where Weiner (mentioned in the article you took that quote from), Selig, and Manfred talk about Ortiz’s test during the survey test being one of several false positives. Now look at Ortiz’s stats season by season from 2000 to 2016. baseball-reference.com/players/o/ortizda01.shtml 2000 was Ortiz’s first full season in the majors. Notice how all of his best seasons were AFTER they started testing in 2004? So, he got better AFTER he (and everybody else) had to be tested every season? Hmmm, wonder what that could mean?
All of them will eventually be voted in by their peers. The writers have little to no credibility and probably a few of them never really swa them play.
When Ken Rosenthal can be fired for criticizing the commissioner, what chance did Schilling really have?
It’s almost like actions (every so often) actually have consequences (sometimes).
A lot of boo hooing for guys who knowingly cheated (and another who said the people whose votes he needed should be murdered).
The idea that you get to do bad stuff and expect it to be ignored and that you should be rewarded as if it didn’t happen is a weird entitlement mentality.
If they had shown a bit more personal responsibility, they’d be in the HOF, but, they did not and they are not.
I misremember what you’re talking about.
Somehow the idea of first ballot in for Ortiz and last ballot outs for Bonds and Clemens happening together demonstrate the shaky moral ground that the writer/voters have to navigate. This is not a time they did it well. As to Schilling, no one is entitled to a vote. He doesn’t seem to understand that, and neither do his fans.
This just makes the HOF illegitimate.
Bonds and Clemens should be in the HOF!
Listening to Tom Verducci on MLB Network earlier made me wonder how he gets a vote along with a lot of these writers and their so called character clause and so-called suspicions of players.
Bud Selig being in the HOF is a travesty just as not having Bonds and Clemens not being in the HOF is so uncalled for to say the least.
Something is definitely wrong with this HOF voting system and it should be revamped immediately though nothing will be done as usual!
A sad day for MLB!
You haven’t READ the actual rules for voting that the MLB HOF supplies the writers for the BBWAA, have you? Maybe start there.
As long as cheater Pete Rose is not in the Hall of Fame, I am happy.
Clemens and Bonds should be in. They both were worthy before the PED issue.
Everyone agrees that Bonds and Clemens were good enough to get in had they not cheated. The issue is whether cheat itself is the disqualifier. There are solid arguments in each direction. Keep them out: cheating shows a lack of ethics and only good ambassadors for the game belong in. Let them in: the owners knew, the GMs knew, the other players knew, even a few of the media knew, and only a whistle-blower Jose Canseco had the balls to take the whispers and make it an issue that the country got mad about. Canseco was himself a user and he is a few sandwiches short of a full picnic basket, but I would argue he almost deserves to b in the Hall of Fame for shining light on the issue. Almost, but not. Because he waited until after his career and payday was over, and benefited from cheating himself.
I get that guys like bonds and Sosa are the most polarizing of the era
but everyone who watched baseball in that era saw Robbie Alomar’s, pudge Rodriguez’ and Kent Griffey’s necks disappear.
Everyone knows those guys juiced too. they just never got caught.
Pudge Rodriguez was named by Jose Canseco in his book for steroid use. Say what you want about Canseco, but he was 100% correct with his steroid reporting in the books.. They basically all ended up getting busted, outed, or failing a test…… except Pudge. And Magglio Ordonez went from perennial all-start to out of baseball within a year and a half.
anyone who watched pudge throughout his career can tell he was one of the most obvious physical changes — he looked like rey mysterio from wwe after he got jacked.
Interesting. I collect game used memorabilia. I have an 1989 Padres game used Alomar jersey in size 42, 1993 Blue Jays WS jersey in size 42, 1999 Indians jersey in size 46, and a Diamondbacks jersey in size 42. I have a 1989 Mariners game used Griffey jersey in size 48, a 1995 Mariners game used Griffey jersey in size 46, and a 1998 Mariners game used Griffey jersey in size 48. I don’t like the Reds jerseys, no offense Reds fans. Bonds started at a size 42 in 1986, was in a size 50 in 2000, and was in a size 54 in 2005 and 2006.
Andruw Jones and Scott rolen should he in 2 of my favorite players ever
Rolen is for me. Elite d and he had a long fairly consistent career- most 3b fall off a cliff after 30
Jones, not so much for me. If he got hit by lightening at the age of 30 and never played again he would have probably gotten in. Back end of his career is not worthy.
He didnt get hit by lightning he got hit by pastery. But the guy is the best defensive outfielder by a wide margin on The defensive metrics and he did have 430+ HRs and 1200 RBIs and has some playoff records.
Yes Andruw Jones should be in.
And pastries too!
I think it’s fair to consider how much steroids apparently played an accumulation of numbers. Bonds went from somebody who was going to make the Hall of Fame anyway to an absolute freak/monster. Clemens also may have made the Hall of Fame prior to his steroid use, but it’s amazing how he was on a natural decline and then all of a sudden started putting up unbelievable numbers even at an advanced age. Sosa also went from good to freak/monster. Whereas David Ortiz pretty much maintained a very high level of performance with or without steroids, so that may be the argument for him.
Schilling being excluded is complete political bull crap, really disturbing.
The issue of PED’s has complicated, and will continue to complicate the voting process for the HOF. Integrity, Sportmanship, and Character are right there in the rules. So it is not just about the player’s stats no matter how much we might want it to be. Also not a black and white issue, as in let them all in or keep them all out. It is clear that most HOF voters are drawing a line somewhere in between. No player who has admitted to using PED’s has made the HOF, yet. So unless something changes within the next 9 years, A-Rod isn’t getting in.
Bonds and Clemens are strongly tied to PED use despite no admission to use from them. Obviously a majority of voters are willing to look past that and vote for them. Yet there is a large enough minority that are not willing to look past it. And that is just it, to be a HOF’er you have to have a large majority of voters to agree that you are to get in. Not an easy threshold even if you are not tied to PED’s. Now it is on to the Era committees to decide, but that won’t be any easier. Those committees do include current HOF members who generally are harder on PED users than the general baseball public.
Some will point to Ortiz getting in despite being named in the 2003 report. But that was much earlier in his career, well before he put up the majority of his HOF stats. He also never failed a test once testing started in 2004. Plus, the 2003 report cannot be verified so we really do not know whether the leaked report is actually accurate. Plus, the commissioner cast doubts regarding whether or not the tests were even accurate. More than enough doubt to get Ortiz over the 75% threshold.
Which makes the case of Sammy Sosa interesting. Sosa put up stats that warrant HOF consideration. He was widely assumed to have used steroids but never admitted it and there was never any hard evidence, former teammates or associates ratting him out. The only other hint was the same 2003 report that Ortiz was named in.
So yes, complicated, and it is not likely to get any less complicated anytime soon.
Whether Sosa used PEDs or not (and he surely likely did), there was the corked bat incident to consider, too. He was a cheater, and he’ll have to settle for the Hall of Asterisks.
I think the best thing that will come from this travesty is real change in how players are elected. There are a lot of great baseball writers but there are just as many horrible ones that don’t know the game and hold grudges against players. We need a new mousetrap.
After Lee Smith didn’t get the requisite 5% his first ballot I got a lot of flak for calling him a definite Hall of Famer.
I think closers get the shaft big time. In my book Billy Wagner is a no doubter especially after retiring after arguably his best season.
I think Joe Nathan and Jonathan Papelbon got the shaft. I’m not saying they should be in the Hall of Fame but to not even get 5% of the vote is a joke. These guys were the best for 10+ years.
Jonathan Papelbon in HOF is LOL.
12 seasons 23.3 war.
gimme
Kevin Brown (2.1%)
19 seasons, 68.2 WAR
Johan Santana (2.4%)
12 seasons 51.1 WAR
Orel Hershiser (11.2%, 4.4%)
18 seasons 51.3 WAR
Fernando Valenzuela (6.2%, 3.8%)
17 seasons 37.3 WAR
All of those of Paperbon. Closers are like field goal kickers in NFL, they are not the MVP, ever. Now guys who were both starters and closers, they could be slam dunk HOFers. E.g., Eckersly, Smoltz. But other than Mariano Rivera, every other closer is at best a borderline case. Finally, Wagner was much better than Papelbon.
You’ll almost never be able to make a compelling case for a closer by using WAR.
If you were the most dominant closer in the league for 10+ years…you deserve consideration.
Papelbon isn’t a HOF. But Trevor Hoffman is in the HOF w/ 28 WAR. Your comparisons really aren’t apt.
& to add to that using Rivera as the minimum bar a closer needs to get in the HOF is beyond stupid.
That’s like saying every player worse than Ted Williams isn’t a HOF’er. You simply just won’t represent an important position. If you want to make the bar a little higher than position players—OK. But they’re an important part of the game.
& I think moving forward things like saves shouldn’t be the only consideration w/ how the game is moving. Teams bring their best pitchers in the 8th inning of games now if that’s where they deem them most needed.
Love the comparison, I actually think it’s pretty accurate. Rivera was one heck of a closer so saying he’s the minimum for a closer is unfair to closers. Rivera is probably a top 3 closer all-time. Ted Williams could hit any pitching. I think he would succeed even in today’s game because he could adjust to anything. He would pull the ball until they played a severe pull shift, and then when they played a severe pull shift he would push the ball.
@manny. You are comparing starting pitchers to closers who will have less WAR. Bruce Sutter = 24.1 career WAR (in the HOF). Lee Smith 28.9 career WAR (in the HOF). While I never really cared for Papelbon as a human being he was elite as a closer over a 10 year period (low career WAR of 23.3) and Nathan was almost as good he had a couple so so years mixed in over the 10 year period (26.7 career WAR). I know there are numerous commenters on here that don’t like WAR stats. For me it’s just a tool for comparison. Personally I think Papelbon was actually more dominant than Nathan. I agree with you on Wagner he was better than Papelbon and it’s laughable he isn’t already in the HOF.
Kevin Johnson
I think closers get the shaft big time. In my book Billy Wagner is a no doubter
================================
I agree. In the modern era (post-multiple inning guys), Wagner is, at minimum, the #3 best closer. And an argument could easily be made that he was a better pitcher than Hoffman, even though Hoffman got a ton of saves,
MLB does full testing in 2005 by 2007 Clemens/Bonds/Sosa retire. They used and some got caught others didn’t. Don’t use the hand/eye coordination excuse. Hit harder, run faster and throw gas yeah you got and advantage over the other players.
Everyone was juicing. The guys that got screwed were the quadruple A all-stars that’s it.
Everybody loved that era, including the hypocritical journalists.
The beacons of ethics that they are!
Not everyone was juicing. Maybe half used them once or twice or even a few times A small minority used them consistently.
Bonds, Clemens and Sosa absolutely should never have an opportunity to get into the HOF.
Schilling was a great pitcher who absolutely is getting screwed because he is a big mouth and the controlling group (sports writers and the league as a whole) don’t like his politics. Nothing else.
What a bunch of dirt bags they are.
Watch these comments will be deleted or comments will be close in a few hours. Bank on it!!!
I don’t think Sosa’s a good enough player to be in the HOF w steroids propping him up. Clemens and Bonds are.
You can reduce their production significantly and put them in. Sammy Sosa was a good player—-but he wasn’t at that level. Corked bat and all…..
Take a look at a pic of old Slammin Sammy nowadays if you need a laugh.
Funny how that didn’t happen at all. Hope you enjoy your own anger and paranoia because it sure isn’t a joy to be around.
When you ask the voters to remove you from the ballot, you shouldn’t be surprised when they do. Its 3 days later and your comment is still there and comments are still open. Guess we couldn’t “bank on it”.
You should really fix this article to mention that Bonds’s conviction was overturned in 2015. It’s really not fair to mention the initial conviction without mentioning that it was overturned.
Shhhh!
I’m really so sick of “woke” and “cancel culture” thrown out there everytime someone disagrees with an outcome or view. Give. It. A. Rest. Are we still all in 3rd grade?
Anyway, agree or disagree there is a morals clause written into the instructions for voters:
“Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.”
A voter is well within their rights to not vote on someone they feel doesn’t meet that criteria.
Bonds and Clemens thought they were too famous and untouchable well they found out different. They knew the potential consequences unfair or not. They rolled the dice and lost.
No one is bigger than the game (something ARod is finding out) or above the law so to speak. Yes rules and records are made to be broken but even then there are limits. Rose, Bonds, Clemens and others brazenly broke important rules on gambling on his owm team in Rose’s case and with Bonds putting up video game stats and Clemens pitching like a 25 yr-old in his 40s. Those things mess with the integrity of the game in a willfull and gratuitous way.
Personally I think if you drop steroids into any era of the game players would’ve used them. I don’t care what the old-timers say.
Ortiz is a first ballot HOF?
Well it’s a definite sea change for past, present and future DHs. The first DH elected first ballot. So the voters felt an offensive only player was more deserving than any position player or pitcher. Interesting. Especially considering his own association with steroids.
“woke” and “canel culture” are all right wingers have, since they can’t actually back up anything they say.
of course, they created both, then complain when folks who aren’t them use it, like the good little hypocrites every one of them are.
Curt Shilling won every award for character during his playing days, and ironically is not being voted in due to his character.
No, he isn’t being voted in upon his own request.
MLB HOF will be hypocritical forever. Some cheaters and scumbags get in and remain, others don’t.
Speechless. It’s now been officially confirmed that the press votes for those who play nicey-nice with them, and they use PEDs as an excuse. In fact, by electing CONFIRMED PED USER Ortiz, we now know that PEDs has nothing to do with it, What a damn joke.
Bonds isn’t in because he was mean to journalists lol
Bonds isn’t in because he cheated and admitted that he cheated.
Really surprised about Texiera
The big winner today was Mark Buehrle. Is he a Hall of Famer? No. But I’m happy he gets to stay on the ballot for year #3. He and Andy Pettitte have similar career WAR, among other numbers. He was a personal favorite during that era of baseball. Glad to see Jimmy Rollins around 10% also.
Have seen some variation of the “You can’t tell the story of baseball without Barry Bonds” argument a few times…
Go ahead and “tell the story” of Barry Bonds and the rest. You don’t have to HONOR them to tell the story.
Also, the “they were already HOF’ers BEFORE they cheated” argument…while likely true in the case of Bonds and Clemens…here’s the thing…
If you already own 15 cars and then steal a car, the cops don’t say “well, he already had so many cars, he didn’t really need to steal this one, therefore it’s OK”.
It just makes it even more of a needless shame and even more of a stupid nonsensical act for them to do it.
As they should of & in my opinion Bonds, Clemens & Sosa don’t belong in the Baseball Hall of Fame instead they belong in the Hall of Shame.
How about for the known steroid users? There are a number of players that are in the HOF who are known to have used steroids. Are they beyond that? Do they belong in the Hall of Shame? If you say no, you have some issues. Bonds won 7 MVP’s and hit over 760 homers, on top of the fact that he was winning gold gloves and becoming the only player in the 500 HR-500 SB club. Those are only a few of the many accolades he earned
He also earned NOT getting voted into the HOF. He has even less shot with the Veterans as he did the Writers.
Ironically, Bonds and Clemens getting into the Hall of Fame will now be left to an even older group of voters. Doesn’t look good. Too bad.
take out known amphetamine users from the hall!
The idea of voting Ortiz in while keeping Bonds & Clemens out is beyond words, irony doesn’t even begin to cover it
Beltran looks like a decent chance to get elected of the new guys for next year’s ballot. The rest probably won’t even make it to a second year on the ballot.
Schilling belongs. The Hall is a joke.
Schilling actually requested that he not be voted in. He got mad and went on a rant, and then asked the writers to not vote him in
schilling is a joke.
there, fixed it for you.
Yet willie mays and hank Aaron took “greenies” which was an PED during their time of playing. They literally said that in a interview with bob costas and having bob gibson in the interview also. So those guys “cheated” also. Ty Cobb was a blantly racist yet in today’s era they would’ve had his name not on the ballot because of who he was personally. Pete rose broke one of the oldest rules in the game of no gambling in baseball. Bonds and Clemens won’t go in besides their numbers. David Ortiz name to the hall was a big head scratcher because he was in that mess also.
Those not in the hall coz of roids ( as opposed to the ones that are already in ) singing along with Neil Young … “ I’ve seen the needle and the damage done ..”
They should all be in. Bonds Clemens all of em
Bonds, Alex, McGuire and Clemens cheated and should have never been considered for the Hall of Fame. I’m happy that those fools are no longer on the ballot. Alex will also fall as well and should. Those here that feel these fools should have made the cut have cheated in life and find it acceptable, hence the outcry. Those fools got what they deserved and I hope that any other committee will do the same as the HOF is not a place for cheaters.
figured the comments would be a dumbster fire of cons pretending KKKurt didn’t get in because of politics instead of being a juicer, and clearly proven right.
not sorry you guys can’t accept reality, but no player in the history of baseball goes from league average at 33 to all elite without steroids, and that’s a fact.
besides, none of you bothered to point our KKKurt stopped whining about roids once he started playing with roid monkeys, and didn’t bother saying anything about them in 2005 when dubya held his witch hunt over them (funny how steroids only became a problem to cons once it came out iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and dubya needed a distraction. of course, like the good hypocrite he is, george kept all the money steroids got him from the rangers sale).
You must enjoy living a miserable life of hate and resentment.
Schilling, who had a career WAR of 20 points above the average Hall of Famer, is black-balled because he practiced freedom of speech. The only thing controversial about his comments is that they didn’t fit the liberal media’s narrative. Shame on those who voted.
So, you don’t think his message of why liberals in the media should be murdered fit the liberal media’s narrative?
You might be on to something there.
“The simple truth is that Barry Bonds is the story of the steroid era. He is a player whose physical gifts knew no limits — and whose desire for something beyond greatness took him to a place he never needed to go. His greed mirrored the league’s: the ceaseless pursuit of bigger, better, more. This is the history that demands to be told, and there is no better place to tell it than in the plaque room at the Hall of Fame.” written by Jeff Passan from ESPN
“This is ridiculous! Why should people who knew full well that what they were doing was wrong and would result in them not being elected to the HOF if they got caught suffer any consequences for their willful actions!!!”
I’m all for cheaters not getting in, but Ortiz definitely did cheat. Can’t have it both ways without looking foolish.
Then how do you explain that Ortiz’s best years came after standardized testing started? You look more foolish calling Ortiz a cheater.
Cheating is cheating. You can’t rationalize it away. It’s irrelevant how he did before or after. The fact is he used illegal substances. Period.
There is no substantive proof that Ortiz used steroids either knowingly or unknowingly. There are allegations, but no proof. The results of the 2003 survey tests were never revealed. There are just unnamed sources that said he was even though neither he nor his agent were ever informed of that in 2004 when the other players that tested positive were told. He was not named in the Mitchell report. Ortiz never admitted to using steroids. Bonds did while under oath. His admission is proof. Bonds jersey going from a 42 to a 54 is not proof, but it is a pretty good indication. Bonds cap going from 7 1/8 to 7 3/4 is a pretty good indication too. Especially since he had an Afro as a rookie and was bald at the end of his career.
Their biggest crime is polluting the Baseball record book. What would Hank Aaron’s and Willie Mays’ lifetime totals be on PEDs? They’ve dishonored Baseball and the greats that came before them.
there needs to be a correction/addition added to the Bonds story. The Obstruction of Justice conviction was over turned by a 10-1 margin in the circuit court. the 10-1 basically means it wasn’t even close and the conviction was more likely a show.
Bonds should be in the HOF, as should the other known and alleged PED users (if they qualify). Main reason is that it was so wide spread that much of the time they were probably playing against many PED users at the time.
Hitters still need to hit, pitchers still need to hit their spots even if they’re fastball went from 90 to 95.
Those that were not though… mad props to you. I do think those that never had any suspicion should get a bit of a bump in the voting.
I am not sure the percentages but my guess is that about two thirds of the hitters were on steroids and maybe half the pitchers. So not sure anyone had a real advantage over the other. Plus MLB turned a blind eye to it all.
Discovering any real advantage to using PEDS would require a thorough scientific study, an alien concept on this site, where most prefer anecdotal evidence and illogical conjecture.
There are only 9 judges on a Court of Appeals circuit panel. It was just 3 that voted in his case and they were split 2-1.
Bonds was both named in the Mitchell report and admitted in court that he used PED. He tried to claim he didn’t know that they were, but he had a personal chef both at home and traveling with him for years because he didn’t trust the team chefs or the cooks in the places they stayed on the road. Do you really believe he was allowing someone to inject him with something he didn’t know what it was?
correct and not correct.
You are talking about what happened in 2013 were was a small panel of three.
In 2015 the 9th circuit panel of 11 reversed the conviction based on various reasons
You are both wrong. A panel is 3 judges and there are 29 total on the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals. The Bonds appeal was decided by a 3 judge panel. It was not an en banc review.
A-Rod won’t see induction via the BBWAA if Bonds and Clemens didn’t.
I’m glad Sosa didn’t get in . he was definitely on roids. Bonds I’m ok with as even tho he had good seasons he was still had that shadow over him about steroids.
I personally think if u get caught taking steroids then no hof or records for u
I think Jimmy Rollins deserves to get in. Maybe not in the same class as some HOF shortstops but I assert the Harold Baines standard.
Even being from Chicago I can’t believe Baines got in. And I love the guy, was class act and teammate, but they have let a bunch of people in who were not best of all time or even among the best of their own era. I think they should be more strict going forward, rather than let more players in who are comparable to the weakest who got in. Lou Whitaker had a career WAR about twice Baines, how that guy is not in is insane.
YEAH, Sweet Lou should definitely be in the Hall.
I love how the writers get to pick and chose who the cheaters where and weren’t. Smh this is sad for the sport of baseball. The same people saying sportsmanship is part of HOF just let in a guy who couldn’t hit 20 HR’s in Minnesota but all of a sudden went wild in Boston.
Went wild in Boston after testing was in place for PED. Meaning he had his best years clean. Unlike Bonds and Clemens.
You can see both sides of the HOF case for Bonds, he was great but was not honest. But you can’t deny this… Bonds on roids was the baddest hitter ever to pick up a bat, hands down. I still remember his homer off Percival in the WS, absolutely crushing it, and being able to read the lips of Tim Salmon in the opposing dugout “I’ve never seen one hit that far”. He will forever be remembered as the best hitter of all time by those who saw him, even if that would not have been the case without the roids. He entertained the mob, gotta give him that.
Shut out of the Hall of Fame, yes. Shut out of the museum, no. If you’ve ever been to Cooperstown, you know there are two different sections of it. You have the Hall of Fame part with the plagues and busts, and you have the museum part with every thing you can think of from Mickey Mantle’s locker to Babe Ruth’s fur coat to the ball Kerry Wood struck out 20 batters with in ‘98. It’s not like they’re completely erased from baseball history. They just didn’t in the HoF, and in my opinion, rightfully so.
*plaques
I still don’t understand why you would not vote for a guy one year then vote for him the next year For me personally, you either do belong in the Hall of Fame or you don’t. If I think you do, I’m not going to make you wait a year or two because “reasons.” Similarly, if I think you don’t, unless you end world hunger or show up to my kid’s birthday party or something like that I’m not changing my mind no matter how long.
I think it is right to not allow anyone who used PEDs into the Hall of Fame.
Man, the list of high-profile first-time candidates makes me feel old. It was with that era/group of players I started to become a real baseball fan. Time definitely flies.
Rubios or ???
Aaaaah… Love Rubio’s but I gotta go with a Tin Fish fish taco along with a draft beer.
There was a huge brouhaha on the Sirius MLB channel today about whether the HOF voters got it right; does baseball need to be the moral authority? Is it really America’s game. I say yes. Baseball has to stand for doing things the right way, otherwise why penalize the Black Sox players or Pete Rose or the Astros for their actions? Bonds, Clemens and some of the others were already great. They didn’t need to cheat. But no, they chose to cheat their fans, other teams and themselves eventually, for sake of what? More money, more fame? More records? That’s still a mystery and they haven’t ever admitted they were wrong. Players who are idolized by fans need to stand as good role models and ambassadors of the game and their greater communities. Think Hank Aaron and Jackie Robinson. Those who can’t play by the rules should pay the penalty. HOF voters just acknowledged that yesterday.
The answer is yes. Its in the voting instructions. Break the laws of the land and the rules off the game and you don’t belong in the HOF. Its that simple.
Rose broke the one and only rule that is in every single clubhouse in professional baseball. Then he lied about it for a decade after he got caught. Then he agreed to a permanent ban. Rose doesn’t belong in the HOF either.
Bonds and Clemens will get in after they are dead, but Sosa will never be enshrined.
The Veterans Committee by then will forgive and forget by then but now they will not sniff the Hall…
Should they be in the Hall, as Bonds and Clemens my answer is yes even though I disagree with their usage of Steroids but Sosa does not in my personal opinion.
Yes, Sosa had great moments with the Cubs but at the end and afterwards he just became a joke…
I am a Cubs fan writing this…
None of them will get in. Current members of the HOF came out in opposition to them getting in. 50 of the 75 living members signed a letter saying that they should not even be on the ballot.
Good.
They don’t belong and they have even less chance of getting in via the veterans committee. Now they can fade into the past.
The greatest hitter of all time not being in the Hall is disappointing.
also the greatest cheater….
If Correa or Altuve end up having HOF career numbers, do you see them getting snubbed like the majority of the PED era guys up for debate here have been? Or do you think that a future committee will overlook that, arguing that the player’s career stats trump one spell of cheating?
I have never understood the point of having writers vote… and then when they drop off the ballot due to lack of support the Veterans committee can just put them in anyways. It sounds like the BWAA voting step is completely unnecessary since the veterans get the final say in the end anyways. Why not just eliminate the middle man and let the veterans committee vote from the start.