There’s no indication when the 2022 season will start following a contentious set of labor negotiations that resulted in commissioner Rob Manfred canceling the first two series of the year. The general expectation is that further games are quite likely to be lost as well, given the acrimonious nature of talks to date.
On the topic of those negotiations, Blue Jays right-hander Ross Stripling lobbed some fairly eye-opening accusations toward ownership and the manner in which their proposal suddenly changed late in the game. Stripling tells Shi Davidi and Ben Nicholson-Smith of Sportsnet that, as the two sides spoke late Monday evening and into the early hours of Tuesday morning, MLB’s proposal suddenly included notable changes regarding the luxury tax. Stripling implies that the changes extend beyond mere alterations to the threshold levels and penalty rates — instead featuring completely new items that had not been previously presented.
“It got to be like 12:30 [in the morning] and the fine print of their CBT proposal was stuff we had never seen before,” says Stripling. “They were trying to sneak things through us, it was like they think we’re dumb baseball players and we get sleepy after midnight or something. … They pushed us to a deadline that they imposed, and then they tried to sneak some shit past us at that deadline and we were ready for it.”
Stripling went on to echo the sentiments broadcast by Giants lefty Alex Wood on Twitter yesterday, wherein Wood claimed that the reported optimism late Monday was “pumped to the media” by Major League Baseball as a public relations strategy. Wood and Stripling maintain that the players’ “tone” never changed Tuesday, as the league claimed via a statement from an anonymous spokesperson. Stripling, Wood, James McCann and several others have publicly stated that the union never felt the sense of optimism broadcast by the league and that MLB’s suggestions of a “change in tone” were an effort to cast blame on players for scuttling a deal at the last minute.
Stripling’s comments, to an extent, also mesh with concerns raised by union leader Tony Clark at yesterday’s press conference. Speaking in the wake of Manfred’s cancelation of games, Clark revealed that during the late stages of negotiations, the league sought to enact a series of rule changes for the 2023 season that would see defensive shifts limited, the size of bases expanded and the implementation of a pitch clock. While Clark noted that the players were not necessarily opposed, the fact that MLB raised them so late in the process left the union with little to no time to discuss them — an obvious point of consternation.
Stripling is hardly alone in his willingness to speak out and voice his displeasure with the manner in which negotiations transpired. Britt Ghiroli of The Athletic chronicled a series of player frustrations that were broadcast via social media, citing Wood, Evan Longoria, Anthony Rizzo, Michael Lorenzen, Kevin Pillar and others. As Ghiorli examines, the players’ ability to freely speak their minds — and share details like those laid out by Stripling, Wood and others — are fascinating new wrinkles to labor talks that did not exist prior to the social media age. While fans have understandably grown exhausted by the public jabs being traded (whether directly or via reports), the lack of any real momentum regarding a return to play and the general distrust between the parties only sets the stage for further exchanges of this nature.
I’m lethargic at this point to all this. I only clicked on this article to find out what “things” they tried to sneak in. Does anybody know?
Read the article. The answer to your question is in the article.
It’s a short article. You can do it!
It sounded like the things they were trying to “sneak” were changes to the game itself and not financial in nature. The changes sounded pretty stupid though. Pitch clocks, limited defensive shifts and enlarged bases. I read something about them earlier. The changes weren’t supposed to be guaranteed. They were just putting something in the contract that would allow MLB to make those changes if they wanted to later without having to negotiate with the union about them. I’m pretty against those particular changes either way but I kind of doubt they would have ever been brought into effect. At least I hope not.
Lol
I’ve mostly been for the owners…until now. The size of the bases expanded? I was on a mediation a month ago where half way through the other side tried to change the terms mid-way through. The mediator stopped things and gave them a choice:. end discussions or continue where we were at but we were not then going backwards. I’m still not getting the owners’ desire to end shifts. They create outs assuming they work and hitters need to adjust their game. imagine if there were no Wade Boggs, Rod Career type players. They’re HOFers because they knew how to hit. I guess today’s voters would have kept them out.
Two of the three items actually favor the players. I assume every player wants less contact at the base. That’s a given. And I’ve heard a ton of players complain about the shift. At worst, it helps the hitters and penalizes the pitchers.
The point is when the owners have every right to implement rule changes. If Stirpling was referring to rule changes he’s an idiot. And if Clark is offended that he was not allowed to have his say in the rule changes, he’s an idiot.
And baseball has been talking about these rule changes for more than a year.
These proposed changes are not for the integrity of the game. The owners lost my confidence with the extra inning second base rule. Baseball is not the other sports and that’s the charm. There certainly is less contact. I hate one game playoffs except to break ties. 162 games is built in a team with a need for many starters. Why change the rules? Forget 1978. Sox fans were hurting from 2003. it made 2004 sweeter. Sorry but last year’s one game with the Yankees felt like all fans were cheated.
dewey, being that hitters need to learn to hit, the same goes for starting pitchers. they give 100% on every pitch and might get through 5 innings. complete games and shutouts are almost a thing of the past.
@JoeBrady, I agree. The larger bases help with collisions at 2nd and 3rd, and greatly reduce the chance of the runner stepping on the ankle of the 1st baseman at 1st. What’s not to like about that? I like doing away with the shift too. It does help the hitters and it curbs a little bit of the analytics. It actually brings the old-school version of this particular part of the game back. I like it. MLB is trying to get more hits and action on the base paths to liven up the fan experience. This helps!
That said,
I think the MLB tried to sneak in details about the CBT. Not the rule changes. The league has been disingenuous in their negotiating tactics from the start. Darn those owners!!
Wow Halo. Why do you continue to comment without actually READING the article. Do you like the way that makes you look? The changes Stripling was speaking about that the owners tried to sneak through were about the CBT.
Exactly. I’ve been saying for years there’s a difference between throwing and pitching.
How does removing the shift bring back old school baseball? The game is Boeing because a batter is striking out, walking or homering. Return the dimensions to make a homer mean something and force batters to learn how to control their bat. There used to be just a few hitters like Gorman Thomas now every time teaches their players it’s acceptable to hit .230 if you hit with power. Thomas was decent in center but if I recall correctly, the brewcrew became the Harvey Wallbangers after Yount took over in center. Brewers fans correct me if I’m wrong.
I don’t think they were trying to sneak in anything. They were submitting a proposal. They were giving something and wanted something back.
Sneak implies they thought the union was too stupid to notice.
The fact that the union said the word sneak tells me they are not adults. Which is not surprising, why would you expect a kid playing a kids game to be an adult.
Who gives an F what Clark thinks about rule changes. As far as Stripling, you actually think the owners the owners thought the Union wouldn’t read what they were signing. IT’S ABSURD.
We don’t know what Stripling is talking about, we just know he’s stupid.
If you don’t see this makes the players look like idiots, that’s on you.
Enlarged bases sounds like a medical problem. 😉
Dewey, don’t forget there are two Sox teams. I know the east coast only likes to think the Red Sox exist, but there are the White Sox too. I know you’re talking about Beantown cuz ofbyour name and from past comments.
@dewey I read enough of your views about taking away the shift. TBH, I like the shift since hitters are one dimensional hitters. I was taught in little league to hit to the opposite side of the field during “shifts” or a weakness at that side of the field. Or quite possibly first baseman holding the runner near the bag and you have a guy on third and a blooper wins the game. So you drive the bal in that huge hole between second baseman and first baseman, runner scores and you jump up and down on your win. It’s a classic fundamental that has been forgotten. Vaughn, Boggs, Rose, and many more did it in their time. It’s never seen today since everyone wants to remember the HR hit over a fundamental hit to win a game.
PiratesFan1981
I was taught in little league to hit to the opposite side of the field during “shifts” or a weakness at that side of the field.
================================
That was always obvious to me; never needed to be taught. I always used the whole field. But one day I looked up and saw I needed a laser to shoot one between the 3B and SS (they were real good). Then I looked at the 2B (mediocre range) and the 1B (statue) and realized any soft line drive would elude them. I never pulled the ball again.
If Carew and Mattingly were around today, they’d hit .350 every year.
@halo We know you are not all that bright. We know Stripling is a player rep that was voted on by the other players in the league, has a degree in finance from Texas A&M, and is a licensed stockbroker and investment advisor. That means he is smart. The Series 7 exam is no joke. A higher percentage of people pass the bar exam to become a lawyer than pass the FINRA Series 7 exam. Pretty sure HE knows what he is talking about and can actually read a contract, or an article, before commenting on it. Maybe instead of trying to insult someone that is obviously your intellectual superior, you could do a little research 1st. Possibly even READ the article you are commenting on.
Or Gwynn.
@JoeBrady I was taught it in little league because I would try to pull the ball to the opposite side during practices. The coach saw what I was doing and came up to me after the routine hitting sessions. He gave me a VCR tape and told me to watch Boggs and others stance when pulling the ball to the opposite field. I went home and watched the video. Next practice he quizzed me and n the video and what I noticed. One thing I noticed was a slower bat speed by all players and that is what I told my coach. He smiled, and said, you do pay attention to details but there is more than just slowing down your bat speed. The coach grabs a bat and shows me the hand placement and positioning of hands. Amongst other things he showed me about pulling the ball to the opposite field. He told me to watch the clip several more times until I noticed something else. I did and began to use the coaches teaching and what I seen done by big leaguers. It took weeks of practicing those things before I could drive a ball into the right side of the hole. I was stoked and from that day forward, I would stroke the ball to the right side here and there in high school. After a bad knee injury playing football, I struggled with my stance and hitting. So I quit baseball and do other things my junior and senior year in high school. I struggled with my stance when I tried one more time in my senior year try out. I did two days and my knee just couldn’t handle the strain.
I guess my story was long, but it was the best time during my youth. Those moments live with you and reminds you how much the game has changed over the last 40 years. What was once a “go to”, is now a forgotten art. Some of the best players in the world did those little things. They use to call me Little Jay after Jay Bell. I’d have his stance and defense. Lol
Owners should get you at the table. You sound like you could straighten things out.
Stupid is as stupid does. AOC has a degree in economics, she knows nothing about economics.
If you can’t see his comments were immature and imbecilic then you are not very bright.
“I’m shocked, shocked, to find that gambling is going on in here.”
When he said that in Casablanca… he wasn’t shocked. Only an idiot would be shocked. Enter Stripling.
Putin studied Law at the Leningrad State University named after Andrei Zhdanov (now Saint Petersburg State University) in 1970 and graduated in 1975. His thesis was on “The Most Favored Nation Trading Principle in International Law”.
I’m not impressed by college degrees, if you are, that tells me a lot about you.
What in the actual hell are you talking about? Your argument about why Major League hitters today can’t beat the shift against major league pitchers and defenses revolves around your story of being a weak opposite field hitter who has a bad knee injury in high school? This honestly made my jaw drop.
NEWS FLASH!! Hitting major league pitching is hard. There are world class analytics and world class athletes at play! Major league pitchers can pinpoint a weakness in your swing and pepper that tiny spot with 95+ MPH heat that moves and mid 80s “junk” that moves even more. That statue at first base isn’t actually a statue. He’d smoke you in a foot race (especially given you gruesome career altering knee injury). It’s not the same thing Little Jay…
I’ve never really posted here but OH MY GOD!!
Man, you guys had hitting figured out! I can’t believe these major leaguers can’t do what you figured out to do at the age of 12. Bench those losers!
Those two people are both objectively smarter than you.
“kind of doubt” yeah, exactly like changing the baseball never came into effect.
Some of those changes could have already been implemented by Manfred.
The pitch clocks are already being used in the minors. A lot of players being called up are already used to it..Not a big deal. The bases are a safety issue.
I don’t consider it sneaky at all. Based on the agreement if something is presented and not decided then MLB has the right to implement those changes no matter what. Since they offered, the MLB has every right to make them a reality next year if they so choose.
If the players weren’t ready for it that has nothing to with anything. It’s not MLB’s fault if the players aren’t prepared.
I’ve been mostly with the players even though I don’t agree with everything. Don’t know how they can justify making more money than ever before but paying 60% of the players 30% less.
The size of the bases should be a no brainer. Especially for the players.
Should have been done years ago. It’s protecting the players more than anything. The owners changing terms half way through is nothing new for them.
I know what you’re saying about the shift but I believe the shift has a lot to do with the game today. When the shift first became popular (2010) the HR did go down. for a few years. Since then teams have found a way to “beat the shift”. Not by going oppo but by trying to lift the ball over the shift or launch angle. More home runs after the popularity of the shift than there were in the steroid era. More teams teaching to hit HR’s means more strikeouts.
Yes the shift creates outs but a strikeout also creates outs.. Not much action in either one. Cutting down on the shift means more hits, possibly less home runs and less strike outs.
That’s not how union negotiations work. They negotiate all the details by talking. Once the issues have been more or less agreed upon. A formal proposal is written up by the organization (in this case that would be mlb). The union takes that proposal, which is supposed to contain everything they’ve been negotiating, and presents it to its membership for voting.
“Sneaking things” or having things present in a formal proposal that was not already negotiated is in EXTREMELY shady.
“more or less”, “supposed to ” . Are those terms a legal representation of negotiations?
MLB made an offer about rule changes and the players scoffed. MLB is well within their rights to do what they did. If the players don’t like it that’s fine but don’t blame others if they weren’t prepared or didn’t like it.
MLB added things in and the players didn’t like it. Both sides did what they wanted to do.. Still don’t get how this is labeled “sneaking” since the players read and saw the proposal.
I’ve been with the players on most of this but this is just another attempt by the players to inflame the situation on something that’s not a major issue.
No, it’s just how the union negotiations I’m involved with work. Do you really believe negotiations are done with formal written presentations? All those meetings are just exchanging papers?
You meet and discuss all the issues. And yes, once things are more or less agreed upon, a formal proposal is drafted for the union membership to vote on. Having language in a formal proposal that hasn’t been discussed is incredibly shady.
The owners are basically bypassing the players legal representation (union negotiating committee) and trying to have players vote on something that was never discussed.
I’m not saying I agree with how it went down. People can debate shady or bad form or sneaky all day long. Apparently the propositions were a surprise to the players but not to people that follow all of this. It’s been on the radar for a few years.
I’m simply saying that MLB had the right to do what they did. The players also had the right to deny it like they did. Both had choices and it was the players choice to react like they did. They weren’t forced in any way to accept the proposal or react. That was a choice they made to try to garner support for their side.
Halo, making any new proposition that wasn’t already on the table at the end IS sneaky because they take time to read and evaluate. usually the give and take is from what has been on the table. in my case in injury cases, it usually involves third party and workers’ compensation matters. Separately each had to be settled but sometimes there are benefits if the same insurer controls both. I’ll for example offer extra money on the third party case in exchange for no more comp payments and a waiver of the need to pay back what has been paid to date. Sorry to bore you but there are times that the total feels like more than just the sums added up. just an example. in my case though the sides usually anticipate it could be done and have already estimated that surplus value.
think of it like limiting rules on zone defenses in Basketball. When Kareem was at UCLA opponents would first just not shoot so scores were like 11-8 at half time. so need a shot clock… Then they play a defense were 2 guard him.
nope. then three guard him. nope… in desperation defense had five people around him… still did not work but the scores were more respectable.
as far as bigger bases.. use the term safer bases… the base at first base is twice as wide with half in foul territory and that half painted orange. no more injuries at first base… should have been done decades ago.
@halo – for someone who pretends to know baseball you don’t even know the most basic FACT about the game; it was invented by ADULTS for ADULTS. Misstating this basic FACT makes it hard to take you seriously.
@dewey, a comment or on MLBTR telling professional baseball players that “they need to learn how to hit” is a perfect example of how out of touch with reality some of this site’s readers are. Learn how to hit lol, I’m signing off the internet for the day on that one, unreal.
Perhaps Dewey meant that players should be less homer happy and learn to hit situationally. Advance the runner. Bunt once in a while. Go the other way when the defense shifts.
There’s nothing stupid about a pitch clock. If a pitch clock isn’t instituted in this CBA the whole thing is a failure
“MLB’s proposal suddenly included notable changes regarding the luxury tax. Stripling implies that the changes extend beyond mere alterations to the threshold levels and penalty rates”
Please, Hammer… what does the quoted statement above, from the article we’re commenting on, have to do with pitch clocks and enlarged bases? Doesn’t get more “financial” than the luxury tax.
I’m still trying to figure out how some clown thinks bases going from 15×15 to 18×18 is only going to reduce the distance going to second base by .75 inches.
So many people think this is good guys vs bad guys and see things that are not there. They fabricate boogey men with nefarious actions around lurking around every corner.
There are two sides that are trying to come to a palatable agreement that both sides can live with. And if there are people in the room that don’t understand this, they need to get out of the room otherwise we are never going to come to an agreement.
No it doesn’t
No it doesn’t.
“Which is not surprising, why would you expect a kid playing a kids game to be an adult.”
You honestly sound like an idiot
I know what he meant. But runs/game are up vs that time frame so we want LESS runs scored in a MORE nostalgic way? I don’t get it. Why do we think these guys should play the way we did as little leaguers? They have full blown data analysts saying “do this, you’ll be better.” Do you also want Steph Curry to shoot more mid-range jumpers. Stop sounding like a dinosaur and enjoy what your seeing even if *gasp* it’s not what you were taught to do in little league by your friend’s dad.
I sound like an idiot? Is that because your lips move when you read or do you have a speak and spell that reads the words for you?
Put this in your speak and spell. Being a baseball player does not qualify you to be in the room of professional negotiators. And based on his comments, he’s not close to being quailed.
You’re back. I want to read about how they are going to put first base in foul territory, how bases that are 99 square inches bigger are going to be placed in the exact same spot, how those 99 square inches are only going to change the distance to second base by .75 inches and how an expired labor agreement prevents the players from striking in the Spring.
After explaining all that to me, then we can get on with how smart you are, how dumb I am, and how smart Striping is in spite of him not being invited to today’s meeting.
You truly have a dizzying intellect.
By the way.. From todays column. I wonder why anyone wrote that.
Of note, Chelsea Janes of the Washington Post tweets that, moving forward, the two parties hope to reduce some of the very public back-and-forth nature of prior talks and keep negotiations closer to the vest. Both the recent week-plus of negotiations in Jupiter, Fla. and the 2020 return-to-play negotiations were public spectacles, to varying extents.
And do you know Eduardo Saverin? He graduated magna cum laude from Harvard University with a Bachelor of Arts in economics.
How many millions, if not billions, did he lose because he got into a room with a couple of lawyers who know something about contacts.
I’m sure Stripling was totally within his element.
Yes, but no specifics. Hard to judge how bad this was without specifics.
The point being, terms were being inserted into the contract offers that had not been previously discussed, according to Stripling. It isn’t really important to know what they were specifically so you can judge their significance. The significance is that they pulled this stunt. It seemed designed to piss off the players, so I guess you could say it worked.
Any proposals to make major changes to the CBT at the 11th hour is bad. It shows bad faith on the part of the owners.
That’s all part of negotiations and within their rights. If the players didn’t like it that’s all well and good. The significance of it is only because of the players reactions. If somebody does something you don’t like doesn’t mean you need to react the way they did.
That’s on them and nobody else. You can’t blame others for how you choose to react to things.
No kidding right! It’s like a NY Times story where they have to apologize a week later after the news cycle… but damage is done.
I often get surprises in writing that were not discussed before which is why it is important to read everything. I don’t get too upset about it. I just start working with what was received in writing and we move on. I look at it all as people playing a game. Everybody will play the game and react differently though. So I can see the differences of opinion here.
@all the suites you wear, You sound like an adult.
Halo: I am trying, my friend 🙂
Obviously you have never been in any negotiations. You don’t try to change major points at the last second after you have imposed a deadline. That is called negotiating in bad faith.
Other than “fine print about the CBT” it’s actually not in the article
Yes it is. Read the article again.
4 people, plus joe, need glasses
Be careful what you believe regarding negotiations. It is like divorcing spouses – you get entirely different stories from the two sides.
MLB is a terrible place to work, the higher ups mistreat the workers, violate their basic rights, and just don’t hear their pleas for better conditions. The workers should all just quit, tear up their contracts and get away from those tyrannical bosses. There are plenty of other places where they can put in a days work and be appreciated and compensated as they should be. Mass walk out right now, that will teach those bosses a thing or two.
Then the bosses can hire new workers, those workers can freely decide if they want to work for the owners based on the rules and compensation the bosses think are fair and the fans can see baseball again.
It’s a win win win. Current players get to put their foot down and stop being taken advantage of by the tyrants, the fans get to see baseball, and the new employees can choose if they want to work at the MLB consortium.
Do you not understand the Owners are imposing a lockout? Now, the players could strike later, but for now, it’s on the owners. If I were those poor, downtrodden owners, I’d sell my team and take the massive pile of cash it’d go for, and find another industry to put it into. I mean, Manfred said the returns are better in any other investment, so it must be true.
Wampum – wow, that is fantastic. Poor players should all quit and see if they can make that kind of money somewhere else. Maybe they could start their own league. Maybe it would even be as successful as the USFL was, remember that football league anyone?
Poor abused players. I feel so bad for them…NOT! They play a kids game for millions. If the owners want to change the rules to try to make it more interesting….fine as long as it does not make it more dangerous like doing something stupid like moving the mound ten feet closer to the batter.
@SuperSloth
Agreed – we need to start a “Me Too” movement for the poor down trodden owners. I’d hate to think any of them were interfered with by – hmmm – say Trevor Bauer.
One of the rule changes was the insistence that every third Tuesday the players have to play on a surface of orange jelly (jello to you guys?) with pineapple chunks in it whilst wearing three foot long clown boots. George Brett’s famous bat was being muted as the measurement for fair boot size. .
The umpires (on the 3rd Tuesday) were to be Stormy Daniels & the kissing queen. The players rightly objected immediately on the grounds that there can’t be a bigger pair of t*ts than Joe West & Angel Hernandez.
The Alaskan underwater summer chess league starts on Friday and my hardly earned MLB subscription fee seems to be headed for the Nuuk Nutcases – Greenland’s entrant….
satire is not liked on this site but yours is quite good…It is satire right ?
Where do I find info on this underwater chess league, @London?
This underwater chess league? Does it use prawns?
False Flag
Great conversation skills
not just about rule changes
“MLB’s proposal suddenly included notable changes regarding the luxury tax. Stripling implies that the changes extend beyond mere alterations to the threshold levels and penalty rates — instead featuring completely new items that had not been previously presented.”
So? They can always choose to not sign the contract.
If you like to say the owners threw a monkey wrench into the deal with an additional request, that’s fine, but sneaking something into the deal?
No one sneaks anything into a deal that’s going to be reviewed by dozens of people. Anyone who thinks the owners were trying to slip something past the Union is not thinking clearly.
And if these are the brains and attitudes behind the negotiations, we are in big trouble.
How the heck would they sneak things past you. You do have lawyers, or at least adults in there reading the entire proposal, right?
There is a reason the players were not in today’s meeting.
Let’s hope the adults keep the kids out as long as possible.
Clark revealed that during the late stages of negotiations, the league sought to enact a series of rule changes for the 2023 season that would see defensive shifts limited, the size of bases expanded and the implementation of a pitch clock. While Clark noted that the players were not necessarily opposed, the fact that MLB raised them so late in the process left the union with little to no time to discuss them — an obvious point of consternation.
None of that has anything to do with the CBT as Stripling implied, and those are all pretty minor in the grand scheme of things, things we’ve all been hearing about for months/years, and I assume previously discussed between the two parties, and which I believe the league has the power to implement on it’s own after notifying the players. So if this is the first the players gave it any thought, that is on them. Perhaps the league actually thought this was an offer that was going to be accepted and so it had to include these minor issues as well to make it all official.
The lack of anything specific from Stripling makes it all seem like spin to elicit another emotional response, rather than rational, open minded, and educated.
He did say something about the CBT. He definitely didn’t elaborate on that. It is kind of weird that he didn’t say what the specific CBT changes were. Maybe he couldn’t remember because he actually IS a dumb baseball player who got sleepy after midnight. And if it was that late, wouldn’t it mean that it wasn’t during the last offer they got? The last offer was around 4:00 pm the next day. So were the “sneaky” changes still in the last offer the next day when it wasn’t super late?
From what I read, MLB can impose changes to the game without the Players Approval after 1 year. So, if these changes were to go into effect in 2023, that is 1 years notice. They don’t need Approval.
Really, I knew the owners wanted to include stuff like this month ago. Are the players really that clueless? The owners have been saying for awhile they want to enact quicker rule changes…
AND the owners don’t need the players approval for 2023 rule changes. That’s the problem, they have to wait a year. Is this news to the Union?
More evidence the players union is run by a bunch of clowns.
Stuff like what? Maybe you should know first before expounding.
Exactly, they weren’t already trying out these new rules in the minors and independent leagues for no reason.
Perhaps mlb should’ve negotiated with the players about these “minor inclusions: during the 43 days they were taking a break.
The owners look really bad to me in all this.
I was responding to rule changes. This entire post was about rule changes. Stuff like this = rule changes.
The players have NO say.
lol!
You are misreading, then assuming. Stripling never said that rule changes were the added small print. He never described what it was at all, and you can click through to the source article for the full quote if you don’t believe me. The writer here was simply comparing his complaint to a somewhat similar situation on rule changes.
So you really have no idea what that stuff was.
I was replying to a poster. And I believe I have always said if. As for Clark, Clark talked about rule changes, if he’s offended by that, he’s a buffoon.
No, the players DO have say. The way the CBA is written, the union has to be consulted about any significant rule changes. The allegation here is that the owners were making an endrun around that, writing into the new agreement that the owners could make these fairly significant changes without player approval.
When were the owners supposed to discuss these minor rule changes?
Halo, You keep talking about them not needing the players’ approval. Well, then why put it in the agreement? I’m thinking they need the approval for these changes for the 2023 season because it’s less than a year away from the opening of Spring training.
Because they have to be notified. The notification was in the agreement.
It didn’t have to be. But Clark knew it was nothing. He was posturing. What a shocker. I don’t think Clark is an idiot. I think Stripling is an idiot.
@halo – for someone who pretends to know baseball you don’t even know the most basic FACT about the game; it was invented by ADULTS for ADULTS. Misstating this basic FACT makes it hard to take you seriously.
??? Vtbaseball. How many kids play baseball? You people are hilarious.
Not to mention, that expression has been used to describe baseball for decades!!! The expression is even in the movie Moneyball..
I doubt there was one review in the world that criticized the movie for referring to baseball as a kids game.
You people are flat out nuts..
Halo- that doesn’t change the fact that it’s an adult game and that you sound like an ass using that “expression” in your arguments.
A lot more kids play the game than adults. People can choose to be offended by anything. Don’t be that person.
Don’t stiffle me
Apparently you are. You didn’t even read the article, but continue to make these comments that have nothing to do with what the issue Stripling brought up.
“MLB’s proposal suddenly included notable changes regarding the luxury tax. Stripling implies that the changes extend beyond mere alterations to the threshold levels and penalty rates — instead featuring completely new items that had not been previously presented.”
The word I object to is “sneak”. If he was offended the owners asked for something, he shouldn’t be in the room.
First of all, the owners are not stupid enough to think they could “sneak” something in the agreement.
Second, if they were going to sneak something in the agreement, which I’m sure they wouldn’t try, it wouldn’t be in the section regarding Luxury Tax or Player Pool.
The entire negotiation is about the Luxury Tax and the Player Pool.
Such a childish response by Stripling is very concerning.
the league sought to enact a series of rule changes for the 2023 season that would see defensive shifts limited, the size of bases expanded and the implementation of a pitch clock. While Clark noted that the players were not necessarily opposed, the fact that MLB raised them so late in the process left the union with little to no time to discuss them — an obvious point of consternation.
It isn’t clear whether Stripling was referring to these proposed rule changes. Those items were linked in this article, but the player didn’t connect them in his remarks.
Try READING the article first, then comment. “MLB’s proposal suddenly included notable changes regarding the luxury tax. Stripling implies that the changes extend beyond mere alterations to the threshold levels and penalty rates — instead featuring completely new items that had not been previously presented.”
Just don’t renew your MLB package as of yet gents. This behavior on both sides is unacceptable. Baseball is turning into the 6th top sport now. Football, Basketball, Soccer, Boxing, Hockey and Women’s Volleyball are all way ahead now. (Men behaving badly) smh
MLB packages have announce that they are currently not charging unless a CBA has been reached. I do think the auto-renew date has passed, it’s just free for the time being.
i am canceling mlb tv and buying milb tv.
You realize that MLB runs MILB now, right? Buying milb.tv is still supporting the MLB.
The proposed changes were/are limiting defensive shifts, increasing base size and implementing a pitch clock. THE HORROR OF IT ALL! What a bunch of idiots Clark and the players are.
The point is the owners don’t need the players permission for these changes. They have to give them a years notice.
Are the players really that clueless?
I think you’re missing a HUGE point.
Per Stripling:
“the fine print of their CBT proposal was stuff we had never seen before,””
The Collective Bargaining Tax proposal. You’re talking about players being clueless to rule changes, but they unanimously voted NO for a reason.
As far as things being in the agreement, Marvin Miller made a carrier out of that. If you want this, you have to give us this.
Adults understand that. BFD.
He needs to stick to pitching, not that he’s any good at that either.
Apparently you are. “MLB’s proposal suddenly included notable changes regarding the luxury tax. Stripling implies that the changes extend beyond mere alterations to the threshold levels and penalty rates — instead featuring completely new items that had not been previously presented.”
READ the article. “MLB’s proposal suddenly included notable changes regarding the luxury tax. Stripling implies that the changes extend beyond mere alterations to the threshold levels and penalty rates — instead featuring completely new items that had not been previously presented.”
How many times are you going to type the same thing over and over again?
rEaD tHe ArTiClE
Until he stops commenting and actually reads the article.
Not sure “lethargic” is the word you’re looking for here lol
Manfred our doesn’t respect the game. That’s why he thinks.he can change the rules……
Stinks
He thinks he can change the rules because he can change the rules.
It was in the last CBA.
Bucsfans, unable to find the information youve been looking for in the article? I would like to sell you a car. Sign right here
Nothing was “snuck” in. Stripling is not the spokesman for the Union, and no one for the union has stepped forward to verify what he alledges. He was probably just not paying attention when it was covered.
We don’t care, Ross
I for one do. Screw the owners and screw Manfred
I for one say screw everyone involved. Players. Owners. Manfred.
Its 1% vs 1%.. In the end its the fans who get screwed the most. How many people already purcahsed tickets tv servies or related content to see games?
If you’re dying for sports make the switch to hockey. You can catch some games live through hulu/espn+ app. Or stream them online.
More like .0001% vs .001%
Hockey missed a full season until the players won a guaranteed 50% of total revenue.
1% is about $400k in 2021. So the 63.2% of players that are at or near the minimum of $575k in 2021 were in the 1%, not quite the 0.5%. There are 62 of 780 active roster players that would be in the 0.01% with a salary over $10.5 million. ALL of the owners are in the top 0.001% with net worth growth in excess of $105 million. You can’t measure salaries with billionaires since most of their wealth comes from increases in the value stock and other securities and investments.
That’s very misleading, but I am open to some clarification if you want.
Just a quick review of Cots shows that there are 14 players making well over the minimum wage. For this case, I included Detwiler at $850k). In TB, there were 15 players making > $1M. On the other side, the LAD had 20 players making > $1M, and the NYY had 22 players making > $1M.
If the parameters are 56% of the players for the small-market teams, and 81% of the big-market teams making big money, then it is not possible that 63.2% of the players are making near-minimum. It is probably closer to 31.5% of the players are making near-minimum.
But, if you have evidence to the contrary, I’d be glad to listen.
I looked up The Tigers Contracts for their 40 man roster & 35% (14 of 40) are making over $1,000,000 per year.
The Royals have 12 plus 1 at $900,000 1 at $975,000
The Twins have 14 also
The Guardians have 8 or 20%
The White Sox have 16 or 40%
And the last half of the 40 man roster are replaceable fodder.
The replaceable fodder get good money. The players I care about are players like Acuna who had to sign a contract for pennies on the dollar to gain a level of security. The “good” young players who have to wait years to get generational life changing money or risk getting suckered into signing team friendly contracts.
GOOD young players should get paid. The 30 million dollars the owners are putting into a pool is not enough. On this I completely agree with the players.
The gulf between a million and a billion is staggering. While the vast majority of MLB players never see the big free agent contract dollars, even the Trouts and Scherzers of the world are way behind these owners in wealth. Even looking at the top MLB earners only, this is the “so rich their kids will never need to work” wealthy vs “so stinking rich that rules don’t apply to them and their kids’ kids’ kids will never need to work” wealth.
If you made $20 every second in perpetuity, you’d have a million before the end of the first day. To reach a billion, it would take over a year-and-a-half.
Sure, if you add in an additional 14 minor leaguers, the the average salary goes down. But then it’s meaningless. comparison,
Outinleftfield mentioned 780 active roster players. At a random cut-off of $750k, there are 247 players making $750k in the AL. Assuming the NL is the same, there are 594 making $750k. That’s 76.2% of 780. By default, the number of players making less than $750k is only 23.8%.
I’ve never actually looked at each and every team but going by what numerous baseball sources have stated is that at least 60% of the players are less than one million dollars.and about half of those make minimum. League average being just over one million.
Taking into consideration that there are 1200 players in the union and 40 players on the roster. and not all of them make the MLB minimum.. If they’re in the minors they won’t get as much.
Three articles on this website mentioned that 63.2% of players were pre-arbitration. Read the articles on the website you are commenting on.
The owners are worse, but the players aren’t helping here. They all run to social media to get their point across, but their takes are obviously heavily slanted. The players just care more about PR than the owners do.
Did you listen to Manfred’s announcement yesterday? You can’t possibly think he wasn’t in major spin mode when he was spewing his version of things. Manfred barely told a single truth in that speech compared to all the junk he twisted, exaggerated and outright lied about. Both sides play the PR game.
Both sides are in spin mode. Considering that before an agreement is reached, everything will have to be put in writing and the players will have to vote on it, I doubt anything can be snuck into the agreement. The players will have days to look everything over. As to larger bases(safety), less shifting (higher ave), and a pitch clock (faster games), these will all benefit the players by reducing injuries, increasing offensive stats (pay me), and improving viewership (payroll is based on revenue).
The players are at least putting their names on what they’re saying. They’re “running to social media” to give information that a great deal of us are interested in to what, where, why these snags & misinformation from the owners are coming from. Are the players blameless? Heaven’s no, but the owners are trying to manipulate the players, the game, and the fans.
Larger bases = more stolen bases and a few more safe calls at 1st base too, i.e. more exciting game.
What did Manfred lie about? That the players were working hard? That they are proposing the best young players are credited with a years service time? Did he lie about compensation picks? More money going to younger players. What did he lie about?
Are you saying the players stayed in Florida?
You know nothing about contract negotiations if you think it inplausible that one side tried to sneak some language in at the last minute. It is an age-old tactic that has screwed over a lot of people. Rush the other side to make a deal with some sneaky fine print
Also, did he lie about the CBT being the only remaining mechanism in an attempt to level the playing field, and hence the reason they are so resistant to players’ attempts to weaken it? The CBT was created after The Boss fought tooth and nail against it because he bought a profitable big market team and he felt he had every right to maximize that advantage. It was all the whining about the Yankees buying championships that led to the CBT and now everyone is whining it’s not fair for the players.
My favorite is when he was asked if he still took pride in being a great negotiator and he basically said “well there are two sides…” Well no shit, Sherlock, that’s a negotiation.
As usual, you didn’t read the article, just the comments.
“MLB’s proposal suddenly included notable changes regarding the luxury tax. Stripling implies that the changes extend beyond mere alterations to the threshold levels and penalty rates — instead featuring completely new items that had not been previously presented.”
MLB already has the most even playing field. More different champions and more different teams in the playoffs since the turn of the century. The problem is not with competition, its with some teams deciding that its more profitable to just take the revenue sharing money and not even try to compete. The revenue for the owners has gone up, while player salaries have gone down. One fix for that is to increase the CBT threshold so that the large revenue teams can spend more money without penalties. Today 14 of the 30 teams have enough annual revenue to surpass the 2021 CBT while still making a profit. Another team was just $10 million away in terms of revenue. Small market teams like the Padres were close or over the CBT threshold in 2021. Fair would be increasing the CBT threshold to mirror the increases in revenue. 30% from where it was in 2017. You do the math. The teams can afford it.
It’s irrelevant. My guess is Tony Clark knows he’s full of crap and is talking to his base and Stripling is so stupid he’s actually offended.
Anyone who is offended by that should not be part of the negotiation process.
Do you know why we don’t have the DH even those the players and owners both wanted the DH ten years ago? It’s because the owners said we’ll give you the DH but you have to give us “Y”.
If the owners say they will give you “X” there is almost always a “Y” attached. Marvin Miller bragged about never giving anything without getting something.
No one is sneaking in anything. You either agree to the stipulation or you don’t. Stripling sounds like an immature idiot and with clowns like him in the negotiations, things will never get done.
Hopefully there are some adults in the room.
outinleftfield
One fix for that is to increase the CBT threshold so that the large revenue teams can spend more money without penalties.
===================================
Just so I understand, you are suggesting that allowing the LAD to spend even more than they are right now, is going to create a more competitive landscape?
That’s what a negotiation is. Each side presents ideas and alternatives.
That was spin, but ok. The CBT is a mechanism, but it’s not the only mechanism. It’s clearly helped though
Halo,
I think this was in response to me. I agree there was some spin there, the draft and now the international draft are also competitive balance mechanisms that will still exist, as is revenue sharing. To be fair, I think he might have framed it as the only mechanism left to restrict runaway spending, particularly with their agreed upon elimination of qualifying offers and draft pick compensation.
“Today 14 of the 30 teams have enough annual revenue to surpass the 2021 CBT while still making a profit. Another team was just $10 million away in terms of revenue. Small market teams like the Padres were close or over the CBT threshold in 2021. Fair would be increasing the CBT threshold to mirror the increases in revenue. 30% from where it was in 2017. You do the math. The teams can afford it.” Read the whole comment.
The very same! Why are all the comments around here simping so hard for the owners?
Ross should care more about honing his craft. He’s been horrible for the last couple of years. There was actually quite a few commenters on here predicting a full season. I wonder what their new predictions are?
I was one of ’em, @McGriff.
I still fully believe* that we will see baseball sooner rather than later. My reasoning: nobody likes to piss money away. Both sides are beginning to do just that.
*I am also an incurable optimist.
So there’s that.
Incurable? Pfffft. We will put that to the test….
It’s tough to beat out of me, Clip.
Ex-wives #1 & #3 certainly tried. Drove them both nuts. Yet here I sit. Happy as a ___ in ____ (insert own questionable analogy).
There’s a lot here, but much of the same and the accusations are more than likely based on fact. But the comment about expanding the size of bases? Where did that come from and what is that about? Wondering how that improves the game
The idea behind enlarging the bases is to help reduce collisions and injuries. The players seem to be on board with it from what I have read in the past.
If the bases are larger, they are ever so slightly closer to each other. This means bunting and stealing have a better probability of being in favor of the batter. This is slight but anything to increase action on the base path is a plus.
It sure is.
Oh hell yes – Universal DH,, pitch clocks, larger bases WILL EQUIAL a sudden use of small ball skills, bunting, steals, hit & runs, run & hit, more contact/balls in play AND MORE ACTION… etc, etc.etc. ………seriously bra?.
The game is in complete retrograde mode & is devolving into a live video game..
I can only surmise those who truly believe faulty misguided marketing theories are under 40 and whose introduction & and continued interest in the great game game of baseball is as a fantasy player or from a degenerate gamblers perspective.
Not necessarily. That would depend on where the “extra” part of the base is. If they expand 1st and 3rd further into foul ground, and 2nd further into the OF, none of the bases get closer together.
That has never been the intention as quoted from the league, nor would your changes make stealing bases safer or more likely, nor would it improve the action, which is why both the league and the players are in favor of it.
Did you mean to imply wider and bigger bases doesn’t make it easier to steal? Have you ever stolen a base? Have you ever tried tagging a runner?
I think you need to think a second time.
Are you trying to say that the base they are trying to implement which is 3″ larger than the one currently in use and that would be placed in the same location would increase stolen bases by any significant amount? A better way to phrase that might be, do you really think that the base being 0.75 inch closer to the runner will make any appreciable change in stolen base percentages? At 27 feet per second, average base running speed in MLB, that means that the base is 0.0175 seconds closer. That is not even taking into account that the base they are proposing will also be soft, meaning it will shift, unlike the current base. Each time a player steps or slides into the closest side of the base, it will be pushed away from the base that precedes it. Each time a baserunner dives back into 1B it will be pushed away from 2B. I think you need to think this through some more.
When first announced, there was media spin saying there was a possibility of helping on SB attempts. Personally I don’t see it.
Both bases are a little larger, so the distance is shortened on both ends. Larger 1st base allows for a slightly larger lead. Larger base results in more base to protect/more base for the runner to get past the glove and tag.
How many plays at 2nd are bang bang and/or go to replay? Now some percentage of all those plays are more likely to result in a safe call. Every player who was out by a hair will now be safe by a hair.
They used the base in the minors in 2021 and there was no appreciable increase in either bunts or stolen bases per game. Stolen bases went from .697 per game in 2019 to .736 per game in 2021. .04 per game means that every 25 games there was one extra stolen base. OOOOO, such an exciting change. What the new base did do in AAA is reduce hand injuries from sliding into bases by 30%. THAT is worthwhile.
Three inches is 4 1/2 inches closes to second base, that’s not insignificant.
Three inches gives the runner three more inches to slide into the bag thus making the tag a little more difficult. Both on the dive back and the steal attempt. Right now every player dives back towards the back of the bag, stretching with his right arm,. He now gets three more inches.
It’s not as insignificant as you would thinkg.
No. The 2B bag was placed in EXACTLY the the same place on the field. That meant it was .75 inches closer to the 1B bag which was also placed in the same exact place on the field as it was previously. So was the 3B bag. 1B and 3B bags extended .75 inches into foul territory. Please do at least a little research before you comment next time. Its obviously too difficult for you to read the articles you comment on, so researching what actually happened might bee impossible for you too. But at least try.
There is something in the article about the size of the bags and where the bags are placed? Or do you want me to research it. I do know that Clarks comments should have NOTHING to do with the negotiations. So why is he making them?
The bags are in foul territory? That means if the ball hits the bag it can be a foul ball, that’s ridiculous.
It’s not a rule change I’m all that familiar with, but if the bag is 3 inches wider, all the first and third base bag is in fair territory, That’s three inches.
Since the second center of the second base bag is equidistant between first and third, that’s an inch and a half.
That four and a half inches is not insignificant.
But I don’t know the exact rule change. I just know Clark is an ass for bringing it up.
By the way, I just googled it.
“I’ve noticed a couple bags have been stolen because of them. I think base runners are a lot more daring now than they were because you have to think they’re getting at least a three inch lead and three inches might as well be a mile,” Severns said.
I could see where something like this took Tony Clark by surprise. They have only been using it at AAA.
Rec leagues here use a first base that is double wide. Half on either side of the line, It is supposed to reduce collisions at first base. I have played on those fields and it does help some in that regard but i have also seen some odd steps on the bag by baserunners and a few sprains.
@brew, they probably wouldn’t increase 1st since it’s already big. But yes, shade 2nd toward the outfield and 3rd toward the foul line. Keeps bases equidistant. I like this idea.
Research it. Instead of quoting someone, look at the facts yourself. Or is that simply beyond your ability?
Joe Says — I’ve read that enlarging the bases also might stimulate more base stealing, thus increasing some action. I’m all for that, but MLB shouldn’t have “snuck” that or anything else into the agreement at the last minute.
I agree Pete. There’s no excuse for slipping things in last minute regardless of who may be in favor of it.
Hey Joe, the owners have every right to make rule changes, they just have to notify the union 1 year is advance.
This isn’t slipping anything in.
If this imbecile is a representation of the brains of the player”s union. It’s no wonder they were not able to come to an agreement. What an idiot.
Halo, what they slipped in was the ability to make those changes without the year notice.
Clark is quoted in the article and the rule changes are 2023. Which means the Union has no say. Manford has also been saying for months that he wants to implement rule changes more quickly.
If this stuff offends Clark in any way then. Clark is 100 percent doofus.
rule changes occur with agreement of mlbtr.
WhTs mlbtr? The MLB doesn’t need permission to implement rule changes. All they need is one year after notification.
In order to get a rule change faster than a year, they need permission.
Halo11Fan, yes, MLB needs the permission from all of us here at MLBTR to make rule changes. They slipped that in late in the negotiations also.
That was damn funny.
This is, objectively, a horrendous take for so many reasons
Halo, that is only the case if the players agree to that in the CBA. They did only in the last CBA. I am not so sure they will going forward. Pretty much everything you say is wrong, but you keep on commenting as if you know what you are talking about. You don’t even bother to read the articles. Its really kind of sad.
Yes, I’m making an assumption that this was not changed. The Owners wanted to eliminate the one year wait.
But it is an assumption. A logical one, but an assumption. If MLB would have lost authority, Manford would have bragged about giving up that right. If the one-year wait was removed, the players would have bragged they gave that up.
That’s both the good and bad part of trying to sway public opinion by using the press.
JoeSays: I can’t resist:
“ There’s no excuse for slipping things in last minute regardless of who may be in favor of it.”
I’m pretty sure every man has been told this at one point or another.
LOL!! You ain’t right Clip. I laughed way too hard at that.
Player safety in regards to sliding and stolen bases. Also to promote the running game as it’s been a dying part of the game.
it has been dying as a result of stat guys cpnsidering them useless.
As stated, players were not necessarily against the changes but rather the way they attempted to slip it past them.
Cancel the season. Shove it in the ungrateful, spoiled, selfish, tone deaf players’ faces!!!
All of those adjectives describe the owners too. Don’t fool yourself into thinking that one side here wears the white hats and the other the black. These are millionaires arguing with billionaires.
Ah, your name is ironic, I see.
LOL…..Kudos capnfatback…..kudos,
I remember eating kudos watching games as a kid. I feel like it’s been that since we seen a game.
Owners instituted the lockout and MLB is a government sanctioned monopoly and are not bargaining in good faith. We could be watching ST under the old CBA until a new deal was agreed upon but MLB wanted to stiff arm players. THIS IS THE OWNERS FAULT. NOT THE PLAYERS.
Wrong. Owners had to lockout the players for many reasons. The biggest being that if they continued under the old agreement, the players would wait until middle or end of season to go on strike. That would cause cancellation of late season races and playoffs. The union did this exact thing back in the early/ mid 90’a.
bigjonliljon: You sir are wrong. It wasn’t inevitable that the players would strike. If the owners bargained in good faith it was very “possible” that a new CBA could’ve (would’ve) been reached w/o any of this needless drama. Please take notice of the 2nd letter in CBA. It’s B, which stands for Bargaining (in good faith) w the other party.
You don’t have to lock people out because they might strike.
Pfffft. They HAD to lock them out, so they won’t strike!
Missing revenue early in the season isn’t as large as the revenue earned in the post season. The players did this exact thing back in 94. I see no reason why the owners would risk them doing it again
Bigjon if it played out that way, then we would have to say it’s the player’s fault there is a work stoppage. But it didn’t play out that way. The owner’s locked the players out. Its the owners fault there is a work stoppage. Literally. They literally stopped the players from being able to work. Can’t even step on the property. You can list the reasons they did so until you are blue in the face; doesn’t change the fact this work stoppage is the owners fault.
Super low class right after the players gave back money to help the owners survive the pandemic.
I missed where the players gave back anything. I believe they filed a grevience.
Stymeedone I believe both are true statements. They “gave money back” by agreeing to prorated salaries for 2020 (contracts are signed per season, not per games. Any proration from there, for example signing a guy to the prorated minimum in August, is done against the scheduled number of games for said season. They could have stood firm on 100% salaries. Of course that would have led to a canceled2020 season) and by agreeing to a proration that was less than 1/162 per game in wages. They filed a grievance on the premise that MLB, once agreeing to a per game proration on 2020 salaries, intentionally dragged out the start of the season costing players money.
Voice of reason…You’ve been trolling for weeks on this. You don’t know what you’re talking about. Get a life bud.
Where’s your father when we need him
You do realize that the owners locked the players out, this isn’t a strike. But don’t let facts get in the way of your narrative
@thevoiceofinsanity
I’d love to shove a LOT MORE than that in your face -and I’m sure I’m not alone -you lunatic. Ahahahahaha!
In his press conference, Manfred claimed that “the concern about our fans is at the very top of our consideration list.”
Well that’s just a blatant lie.
What do you expect from that clown? Manfred is a broken tool, a scumbag puppet for the cheapskate owners who don’t care about the fans, they only care about profit.
I don’t expect squat from Manfred – that’s the problem. But I also didn’t expect him to take the most hated commissioner award away from Goodell this easily and quickly.
Manfred actually makes Bettman look competent — not an easy thing to do.
Completely agree. He is hired by the owners and responds only to the owners. We all know that and understand that. But if he genuinely cared about the fans and the game, they’d have encourage active negotiations all off-season.
I’m not here to say I blame Manfred for all this, but you can’t punch us fans in the face and then claim to be our friend. We’re not blind.
Edit: Someone above deleted their comment lol
it’s revealing that he often uses the word “industry” instead of “game”
It’s also revealing that he laughed while canceling games.
Was it a laugh, or more like a cackle?
the white cat in his lap was a nice touch
A monocle would completed the image.
When Manfred’s lips are moving it’s always a lie.
Manfred had a press conference yesterday.
Just curious.
Not true. Sometimes his lips move when he’s making out with men.
I’m to the point that I’m sick of this. I’m not saying the owners are totally in the right. But the players have totally lost it. They play a game that pays excellent money. They get paid whether they’re injured, or if they’re performance is poor. Doesn’t matter.
The players union asks from the beginning we’re ridiculous and aimed to make back what they feel they missed in the last 2 CBA’s.
The owners have more money and responsibilities on the line than just player payroll. Scouts, development departments , stadium employee, insurance, stadiums…. The list goes on.
Let the players union go build some stadiums and take in the responsibility’s to start they’re own teams/league if they want to be in charge and take the financial risks.
Until then, I’m to the point that I don’t even care if there’s a season. There’s so many more important issues in America than these spoiled brats.
Cancel the season. Let the players make no paychecks, let the owners make no money…. Then see how fast a deal gets done for the next 5 years and beyond
Record revenues for the league, despite no hard cap, baseball players get lower % of revenue than basketball or football players. Owners locked out the players, not the other way around. Owners have been greedy SOBs during the entire time and players have been more or less reasonable (outside of maybe the sky high pre-Arb bonus pool). Owners are to blame for missing games as we could have operated under the old CBA until a new one was hammered out, but owners wanted a bigger cut of the pie when they are already making more than ever before. This is what happens when a you have a true monopoly. It’s pure ownership greed at the sacrifice of any care for the consumer or employee.
More games to earn revenue also equals both more revenue and more overhead and expenses. It seems like you are not making an apples to apples comparison GareBear. Football and basketball teams play less games and their business structures are different.
MLB team financials are not public record, and the earnings vary from club to club. If we had access to these records, then we could better understand how MLB owners as a whole are performing and be able to make better judgments on how as you said, “greedy SOB’s” they actually are. The fact that the owners came as high on minimum salary and accepted the pre-Arb bonus pool concept are huge wins for the players association. Those players awarded bonuses will carry larger starting salaries to the arbitration table. The increases to the CBT proposed by the owners most recently seemed fair. While the players have made some notable concessions, dropping the super two percentage increase demand for example, I see the owners moved more to reach a deal.
@ddub We have access to the financial statements for 2 teams. All teams have roughly the same expenses within $4-6 million dollars outside of debt service and player salaries. Almost all of that difference is in GM and manager salaries for the different clubs. Debt service is public for all teams. MLB revenue went up 30% over the last CBA. Player salaries went down >20%. Raising the CBT threshold by 30% from what it was to start the last CBA is fair, reasonable, and affordable by the teams. What the owners proposed was an insult. Especially when they tied that to increases in the penalties for going over.
Thanks for your comment. Please clarify which teams financials are available and where? If one of those teams you are referring to is the World Series Champion Braves, I have a hard time believing expenses and revenues of that team look similar to the Rockies or Rays.
If the money is just gushing towards ownership, they would probably move closer than they have to the players asking terms. There is more to it than greed. The players were offered the financials and they declined to review them. Why would they do that unless they suspected the details of those financials would not play to their favor.
I am actually disgusted with how this whole process has carried out and see blame on both sides. But I think the owners to date have moved more to reach a deal than the players. Regardless of the limited data that you related above about salaries and revenue changes, owners carry much more risk than the players. The games I have attended since the pandemic have had poor attendance. I am referring to the Angels who are usually high up the list in fan attendance. I’ve got to think that uncertainty has got to be playing into the owners positions as well. Obviously TV revenue is big, but concessions, gate revenue and retail sales are huge too.
You obviously don’t insider stand business. Record revenues – possible. But expenses keep going up also. You don’t think that insurance costs are higher, payroll for both the players as well as the entire support staffs behind the scenes(secretaries, scouts, development departments, parking attendees, electric bills, etc) aren’t higher every year as well?
Locking out the players was done so that they couldn’t start the season only to have the players go on strike at the end of they therefore cancelling the playoffs and World Series. As the union have done before.
Stop spouting out crap you’ve read and actually do some research for the truth
Expenses have not gone up even remotely close to what the profits & revenue has. That’s why the players are upset. They know and understand this. They are inside the business. Jeter knows this because he was an owner – it’s why he left.
Profits have more than doubled on the low end in the last twenty years (Pirates/Marlins), more than tripled on the high end (Yankees/LAD). Expenses aren’t even close to that. To suggest otherwise is a non-starter for a conversation.
And it’s also worth pointing out that as a percentage of revenue, baseball players are the lowest-paid of any pro sport, and it isn’t even very close. Those other sports don’t have nearly as many labor issues as baseball either. Have we learned anything yet?
No, it’s not worth pointing out. Revenue without context is meaningless.
You haven’t actually responded. Context without context is just a waste of time.
People are constantly bringing up revenue as if it has meaning. Without context, it doesn’t.
A film grossed 100 million dollars, is it a hit or a bomb? Without context, the gross is meaningless.
Not trying to be combative but…. Prove that. Really. Cause you cant. It’s only your opinion
But they bargained for that in trade for guaranteed contracts. No other major sport has 100% fully guaranteed contracts.
@Halo You keep trying to say that, but its obvious you are not paying attention to facts. We know from the two teams that are owned by publicly traded companies that profit growth paced revenue growth. We know that revenue growth for MLB was at least 30% over the past 5 seasons even taking into account lost revenue in 2020. Median player salaries went down more than 20%. We HAVE the context.
@jon We know what the two teams that are owned by publicly held companies are making, what they are spending, and what their profits have been. Increases in costs have not mirrored increases in revenues. Even for the one team that has a new ballpark, their costs remained consistent over the past 5 years. Revenue for MLB went up at least 30%. We don’t know exactly what the national sponsorship money was, so it could have been much more than 30%. We know that median player salaries and benefits including per diem were down more than 20%. That is the bottom line. While revenue and profits increased, player salaries were way down.
@jon You obviously don’t understand how to read a financial statement. We have seen what the costs were for the two teams that are publicly owned. We know that costs for all teams are roughly equal outside or debt service, which is public, and player salaries. Player salaries have gone down. Other than player salaries, the operating costs for the two teams that we do know exactly what they were have been steady. Consistent. Less than 3% increase over the past 5 seasons. Total, not annual. The cost of all salaries that are not player salaries for each of the two teams that are publicly held was less than $15 million and that includes minor league player, coach, and trainer salaries. Large users of electricity negotiate prices years in advance and they don’t increase. In most cases in MLB, the cost of things like electricity usage and water and other utilities are paid by the municipality and are in leases that have their prices locked in for 20+ years. You really need to stop since you don’t understand what you are talking about.
Halo, if the owners would open their books it’d be real easy to put context to it. They won’t, and why do you think that is? If they were really struggling, open the books, let us all see.
It’s owner greed, plain and simple.
I respect the position.
Good young players deserve to get paid. The Luxury tax threshold should be a speed bump and not a barrier, and the rhetoric in the above article doesn’t help.
@yankeeclipper
Where is your profit data on private companies coming from? Are you part of their accounting firm? While revenue streams can be fairly estimated, how much revenue a company has is not a direct correlation to profit. Ask Tesla, which has yet to turn a profit.
@ blue sky
As has already been pointed out, the business models of NBA, NFL and NHL are vastly different from MLB, both in number of games, and depth of a farm system. Even scouting. Each team in MLB has 116 teams of their competition to scout at the minor league level along with College, High School and the 29 other MLB clubs. Not to mention international players. Do you think maybe, just maybe, MLB teams could have more costs?
Stymee: As I’ve posted in the past, with links, I’ve researched Bleacher & statistica, as the main sources of this information.
I’ve also acknowledged that they’re are likely not 100% accurate as teams hide money in various ways so their profits are even higher.
I do believe, however, that if teams were not making them money they would open the books. Why say, “We don’t make “x” profit margin, or anywhere near that,” while negotiating for hundreds of millions of dollars, but refuse to show the evidence to support it, when simply supporting it can end the discussion right away? I have an answer……..
I have the opportunity to be completely objective and ruthless towards either side of the argument because I don’t naturally default one way or the other in this specific instance (probably because I’ve been on both sides of these negotiations throughout my career).
GareBear: While I agree w you re most of your comments, there’s 1 part I kind of disagree with. Re the Pre-arb money: I think the union’s amount was to high but it’s not ludicrously high when you look at how many players they were going to be spreading that money to.
If a player is drafted out of college he’s already (in most cases) 21-22. His 1st full season (22/23) he spends at Hi-A or split between Hi-A & AA. His 2nd full season (23/24) he starts at either AA or AAA. Even if he’s ready for the Majors (in most cases) he’s kept down until the extra season of control can be had. In this scenario a player’s 1st full MLB season is when he’s 24 or 25. Keep in mind as of the last CBA the team has 6 yrs of control. Then and only then do they become free agents. By this time teams are looking for new young’uns to manipulate. To many of us baseball is a game. To the one’s who are blessed enough to play it at the highest levels it’s their profession.
GareBear
Record revenues for the league, despite no hard cap, baseball players get lower % of revenue than basketball or football players.
==========================================
So? Honestly, you have no point here. The players have repeatedly rejected a % of revenue. Against their own best interests, but that was their decision.
You can’t reject a % of revenue, and then demand a bigger piece of the revenue when you realize that you were wrong.
That has to be fairly obvious.
It’s fairly obvious that this isn’t the point. Once you get the point, you will see the players’ point. And you will also see why baseball has a history of labor issues where the other sports don’t.
1-I was under the impression that baseball has had a longer streak on uninterrupted play than the other majors? Was I wrong on that?
2-If a % of the revenue wasn’t the point, then what was the point? Garebear said “baseball players get lower % of revenue than basketball or football players.”. That’s by design.
If the players want a % of the revenue, they should ask for it and negotiate to that point. And, if they don’t, that’s fine. But then they have to give up complaining that they aren’t getting a % of the revenue. It can’t be both.
Believe me, I’d love to find a job where my employer says “you can have a 5% raise or a % of the revenue, and let me make the decision after I’ve seen the final numbers.
1. I’m talking about not just the most recent history but the entire history of the game. Baseball has returned to a state labor strife more often than any other sport, and it hasn’t always been about strikes or lockouts.
2. No, it wasn’t the point. The point is one of comparison, much simpler than you are trying to make it. No solution was suggested by this point.
1-I don’t get overly concerned about the history. That’s why my opinion has always been that I won’t be bothered by a two-week work stoppage. I haven’t missed a single game in 28 years. If the players/owners need to two weeks to hash it out, I am perfectly fine with it.
2-Point of comparison, I guess, but the players’ decision is the reason why they have lagged. This has nothing to do with the owners. They all but begged the players to take a percentage. And likely still would.
To repeat, the reason why the players get lower percentage is because of the players’ decisions.
You should be aware of the history even if you decide not to be concerned about it. The history is repeating itself. Other sports have figured this out. Baseball never has. At some point that ought to matter to how you judge the people who run the game.
It has everything to do with the owners. If ownership totally lost its mind and agreed to share revenue to where the player share matches other pro sports the cost would be far greater than what the players are demanding now. It wasn’t the player’s “decision” that got them here, it was the last CBA. This dispute comes down to ownership wanting to freeze the big gains they made in the last CBA and I’m sure they’d be happy to freeze it in it with a revenue share that would give the players little or nothing.
@blueskies
The NHL players had their union decertified. Is that how they got to a more harmonious relationship?
Baseball also has 3x the amount players in its entirety, 5 minor league systems lots of stadiums and you need staff to run all those teams and facilities, staffing for 162 games vs 81 or 17.
I don’t think it’s crazy to believe they would make less % of the sport revenue when there’s a lot more payees around.
I’d be all in favor for a game that got rid of the owners whose only contribution is money. There are spoiled brats at these negotiations; they are the ones who locked the players out and the so-called “fans” who would cape for them.
I agree, if they don’t like what they are paid, let them go elsewhere. Baseball players are out of touch with reality
I hope that they do. I would love watching Bryce Harper play in Japan for a season. Because I enjoy watching great baseball players, not fighting for an owners right to keep more of the profits for their skills.
I’m all for the players going to other countries this season and leaving the owners to stew over all the money they are losing. I really hope this happens, it would be hilarious.
Bowadoyle: If players are out of touch, what does that make owners, who set the prices for the American families to watch the players play? Who’s more out of touch, the billionaires you are saying should keep even more of the profit and get special Congressionally protected monopolies? The ones who don’t even spend 50% of the money given to them to spend on rosters. Or the players, who people pay to go see play, and buy their jerseys, and beg for their autograph?
I assume you’re good with the owners continuing to keep profit despite the fact negotiations are expected every four years, and profits continue to grow because of the players, right?
Couldn’t agree with you more. Ultimately the fans are getting hurt here. and if this crap continues, many of us will turn away from the game we love and allocate our precious resources elsewhere.
While I acknowledge that some of the proposals and tactics applied by the owners have been suspect. Overall, the movement towards center has by and large come from the owners. People that think the owners have all this money lying around to meet the exorbitant demands of the players do not understand business. Owners have contributed hundreds of millions to billions of dollars just to own the baseball club, and then they have to maintain its operations through more spending.. The owners can only obtain a return on investment if games are being played and players need to play games to earn money. Ross’s comments are the problem here. The players keep accusing owners of manipulating the media, while most stories I have read show the opposite. If what MLBTR posted about the most recent proposals is accurate, I hold the players union at least 75% responsible for the failure to arrive at a new CBA.
A lot of words for such a simplistic concept.
Meeting in the middle isn’t the fair way to resolve a conflict. It’s a childish concept that only applies to two reasonable parties.
The players just chipped in to save the owners during the pandemic and owners literally respond by locking them out when the pandemic ends instead of just continuing the cba for another year while they negotiate.
This post is just pure jealousy aimed at the players. You’re taking the owners side because you’re jealous that the players make a lot of money to ‘play a game’.
It’s a business that generates a ton of money. Players are just asking for a bigger slice of the pie because they’re the whole reason that money gets generated. Stop with this ‘just a game’ garbage because it’s not true.
Why chastizing the players for making money ‘to play a game’ while not chastizing the owners for making (even more) money ‘to watch a game’?
And I love all of this armchair hardball talk aimed at the players. Here’s something to consider: replace all of the owners with other billionaires and see if anyone cares. No one will. But replace all of the players with inferior talent and I guarantee you the sport collapses. Even the NFL saw how terrible using replacement refs was.
People care about the on-the-field stuff. No one cares who their team owner is unless it’s a bad one (the Wilpons, the Marlins, etc), in which case, they’re replaceable. There’s a list a mile long of people who have the means and want to own a team.
RCT: Actually, that’s where I think many may be mistaken, albeit unintentionally. I think it’s widely perceived they’re asking for a bigger slice of the pie, but that sets the wrong perspective. In reality, with the increasing revenues, the players are really asking only to maintain the slice of the pie they had….by requesting the owners don’t restrict spending at incredibly & unrealistically low levels.
All these jealous cats whining about how much money players make to play a game. No one getting on the owners for how much they make to own a game? I own lots of games! Monopoly, Trouble, Life, Mouse Trap…. I wanna be a billionaire game owner whaaaaaaa!!!!!!!
Gee, I wonder what their salaries will be if the players start their own league?
The fact that the players see ANYTHING proposed by the owners as something that they should get to trade off for something on their wish list is part of the problem here. On-field rules changes to improve the flow of the game and the entertainment value benefit BOTH the owners and players. That they can’t see that and instead want something in return for it needs to change. They’ve seen a pretty steady decline in prominence as far as major sports leagues go, and they need to understand that and break out of their little bubbles and see they’re going to preside over the complete collapse of their sport if they’re not careful. Their entire focus in all of this has been increasing player pay across all levels, with no thought to actual entertainment value or competitive balance whatsoever.
If you read the article you’d see that apparently the owners tried to sneak in the rules changes at the last minute. They weren’t brought up for discussion. I don’t blame the players for wanting time to discuss those changes instead of just blindly signing off on them.
I don’t understand why the owners are on this big campaign to have people love them and hate the players. It seems that every move the owners make, every statement they make, every proposal, is for public relations value and not to move the negotiations along. No one comes to the stadium to root for the owner, they come to root for the team and also for individual players. And that’s what the owners seem to want to destroy. It’s like McDonald’s going a big publicity campaign to make people hate hamburgers. It’s insane
That’s always been MLB’s move: try to turn public opinion against the players. There are too many in this thread willing to lap down that borax.
The players have been taking to Twitter and trashing the Owners. Bryce Harper for one has gave the flipped the fans the bird and suggested he might play overseas. Take the raises (which any sane union shoots for at a contract and has been offered) and play ball!
Because if they control the narrative they demonize the players and create public pressure for them to cave. It’s why you have so many casual fans not understanding the very important distinction bt this and the 94 strike: that the players have never once said they would not play under the existing CBA until a new deal is reached and that the owners are 100% responsible for all lost games
The owners want the fans to pressure the players to take a contract skewered in the club’s favor. They knew the players would balk at the proposal. Owners would like to see a 140 game season with expanded playoffs similar to the NHL. They purposely inched the CBT slightly higher knowing it would be rejected. Come later this month, miraculously, they will be negotiating to “save the season for the fans” Their modus operandi has been to start games May 1st. You just watch and see what transpires.
The press is almost 100 percent behind the players. Most people are behind the players. It’s laughable to think the Owners have an ally in the press. The players are the ones using the press.
Did you watch Manfred yesterday, he complimented the players. The players are the ones negotiating through the press.
The outlets that are behind the owners are ESPN & MLBN. In fact, they both showed Manfred’s presser and statements, but not Clark’s. Most of the media, however, is decidedly behind the players, and stories like this aren’t going to help.
As I said in the very beginning, regardless of how this shakes out, it’s a lose-lose for the owners and they just don’t know it.
Your correct. I laugh at all these articles saying the owners suck and feel sorry for the players. Do you think it may have to do with the fact that that these so called journalists need the game and the players to be friendly to them in order for them to have a job? Leeches with personal gains clouding there writing.
‘Did you watch Manfred yesterday, he complimented the players.’
This was a PR move that apparently you failed to notice. Shocking because I don’t understand how anyone could take anything Manfred says at face value. But here you are.
I don’t watch ESPN. MLB has Plesac who was a Union Rep.
And both should have shown Clark’s comments.
Clipper, MLB Network did show Clark and ESPN announced that they would but I saw it on MLB Network. What I noticed from it was, Manfred, like him or not, he seemed poised and Clark sounded nearly unhinged. I can see how the MLBPA came out the loser the last couple of CBAs.
I also didn’t think it was a good look to have Scherzer up there.
JoeSays: Okay, that’s good. I wonder if the web news got them thinking about how slanted it seemed. Clark’s a moron though, imo, and I would’ve moved on from him if I were the union.
The union definitely has some work to do too, but the owners’ lack of movement off the CBT stuff is a complete non-starter, and rightfully so, imo.
Both sides are replete with unattainable goals, and should recognize this, strip away the day immediately, and readdress the simple core issues.
If MLB really is not doing as well as the union says, they should be opening at least some of their books to reflect that. But they won’t, which leads me to the inevitable conclusion. Nonetheless, I would defend their right not to open them, because it’s their right.
If they cancel more than 30 games then they should just go ahead and skip the whole season and hand the Dodgers another fake trophy. 1981 and 2020 are both as fake as it gets.
Take out the word fake and i laughed out loud.
What if the cba tax was put into escrow and the teams could designate their portion of it to pay player salarys. If not used then it could roll into the Pre-Arbitration Bonus Pool or something more appropriate.
And what did the Players try to sneak in? Because surely they’re not innocent either.
The players didn’t put anything new in their latest proposal.
You can see exactly what the MLBPA’s previous offer was on this very website if you wanted to take the time to read it before commenting.
I’m sure the entire proposal was in this and any other web site. 100%. Lmao
Sounds like something a player would write…
Well, no one has accused them of sneaking in anything specific that day, so we have no information to answer your question.
It’s a proposal by mlb, voted on by the union. It’s literally impossible to sneak anything into a document with a “Yes/No” vote.
The owners are shady but players acting like they were being fleeced with the CBA, minimum salary and bonus pools are ridiculous. 30 million allocated to the best pre-arb players is a lot for something that didn’t even exist before. 700k is a more than fair minimum. What more do they want?
I suspect the players might have been willing to live with the proposed minimum salaries and bonus pool. It was probably the CBT thresholds and anti-tanking provisions (or lack thereof) that probably scuttled a deal.
It’s pretty simple actually — the entire concept of free agency is broken bc it’s become very clear that it is bad business to pay for not star players in free agency and more advantageous to simply keep restocking cheap players in their pre arb years to build most of your team
This is largely the result of data and analytics and approaches like money ball… Which was smart and innovative but means that your average major leaguer is never really given a chance to earn their value bc they are viewed as past their prime by the time they reach free agency (assuming they even make it that long).
The pre arb pool is meant to rectify this to some extent by recognizing that not all pre arb players contribute the same value and that the minimum salary should be the payment rate for replacement level, not dudes that are integral parts of your team
It’s also not just the total dollar amount being debated but the number of players included… MLB wants to treat this as a minor pay bump for the ultra elite and MLBPA wants to treat it as fair compensation for the large number of players currently earning the minimum with no negotiating leverage that contribute a disproportionate level of value for their teams
It’s pretty clear that free agency is broken and one part of that is that MLB got their way prob 15 ish years ago when they outlawed major league deals for amateur players (ie guys negotiating MLB salaries for their pre arb years as part of their contract when drafted /signed as an amateur free agent
The problem with the pre-arb pool is the players good enough to get the bonus will also be good enough to earning a lot in free agency. And it’s unreasonable to expect a majority of the younger players to get the bounus.
Who gives a flying leap. If you didn’t like the offer, reject it.
You now have a week to negotiate. You shouldn’t have flown back to New York and wasted a day.
These people are children. Grow up and deal with the issue.
Oh the big bad bogey man tried to slip in something at the last minute. Hey child, that’s happens to us real people all the time. Grow up.
them flying home was totally absurd, yeah. what more do they have to do right now? get off your high horse and get to the table. stop trying to fish for public support.
Why not stay in a five star hotel room and meet the next day. Oh wait, that’s too much of an inconvenience.
to heck where they stay, that shouldn’t even matter. in fact, they could even meet over Zoom or something, but the lack of any real meetings today shows they really don’t care that much. honestly, they are kinda acting like babies. the league swung at them and instead of swinging back they run from the conflict and cry foul. sad, just sad.
I agree with you darkside.
And the world needs ditch diggers too. Let the players chose other professions if they’re unhappy with there current one
Exactly, when bad things happen regularly that makes them OK.
We shouldn’t try to fix things, only accept them meekly.
WORKERS OF THE WORLD UNITE!
and people will eat this all up without real proof because the owners are evil and the players are underpaid or something like that. PATHETIC.
Or, nothing like that at all.
I mean, these were facts reported by multiple sports news outlets yesterday but you can just pick a position and cover your ears if you would like. The world is usually less scary that way.
that simply isnt proof. they don’t provide any real proof that anything was actually slipped in, just copy what the players claim.
The good news is that if this isn’t truthful Manfred will immediately correct this report and issue a statement of fact. If he stays silent, however, that will speak volumes about the assertion. It’s not wrong, but it’s a dirty trick when you’re trying to convince everyone your the team negotiating in good faith. That’s not exactly a good faith move, imho. I have negotiated on behalf of management against a union and this is a move you make to intentionally get something past, hoping they won’t notice.
If it rule changes, the owners have complete authority to implement rule changes without the players permission. That’s not sneaking in anything.
If it’s about something else, the owners have every right to say the only way we can make that work is by also doing this.
Marvin Miller made a career out of that. This is strong evidence the players union is made up of a bunch of buffoons.
i mean, he could say anything and most people still wouldn’t believe it. he could say the sky is blue and people would object at this point.
So the MLBPA claims multiple changes and the league has no rebuttal. Doesn’t seem strange at all.
Hey Darkside, I have this bridge you really need to check out…
Shocked! Absolutely shocked that the owners would pull such shenanigans! (that was sarcasm for the sarcasm impaired)
I bought upstairs carpeting the other day, I was shocked they padded the estimate with furniture moving (Sarcasm) Yes, furniture moving is typically included, but they didn’t expect our bedrooms to have actual beds.
It happens to us real people every time we take our cars in for auto repairs. A player crying about this stuff pisses me off,
Baseball is the most ineptly-managed of all the pro sports. It’s a sad commentary on the state of baseball that it has always been this way, and nothing ever seems to change for the better.
Seal the gates, cancel the season, hire unhinged armed guards to deny access to all MLB buildings that the “players” use, hire an army of trolls to spread rumors about the players and their wives, demand that the only player representative for the next negotiation is Trevor Bauer. SHOVE IT IN THEIR GREEDY FACES, ROB!
This will be solved by a federal mediator like in 1994
Players do not want that. They know they will not get as much if mediator comes in and explains to them they’re asks are unreasonable. The owners already asked for federal mediation and the players turned it down
Anyone else see Manfred laughing before he announced the cancellation of the first two weeks of games? The guy isn’t serious about an agreement.
MLBTR: posts an article
Comments: owners are bad/players are bad
Repeat forever
Cry myself to sleep
The sad thing is that players are only concerned with getting more of the pie. I don’t want to hear any of them saying they want to fix the game of baseball or ensure it’s around for another 100 years. All this money players want just means more we will end up paying for things related to our teams.
I never comment – but I am just so over this. So disgusted with it all. They are all wrong – they are all right – It’s not just 1 sided. Does Max really care about minimum salary when he gets what $5 million a year? Maybe he could say I’ll take $40 – spread other $5 around the team. Do owners care when they manipulate service time? It’s a hampster wheel and it’s a gd mess.
The very sadest part for me – All the “little people” – Stadium workers, bar employees, restaurant workers etc etc – they do not get tips / paid when these out of touch people (yes owners & players – all of them are out of touch) stop negotiating and do not play.
Sad part #2 – they are losing the young fan – I was going to take my son to Celtics game on April 1st and Sox game April 2nd – now no Sox game. He’s 15 years old & already thinks baseball is boring as heck on TV (3+ hours??? no way) as do every one of his buddies – now I explain, or try to explain why the lockout and no game in April – he at least enjoys going to games, but now can’t do that.
I think I can hear the Fat Lady going through her vocal progressions….
I understand the players are the product. I understand that the owners are greedy and con artists. at the same time, the owners incur ALL the risk. I could agree to many of the players issues except that they have no skin in the game. they get hurt, they still get paid. They become terrible in season 2 of a decade long deal, still get paid. incredible benefits and perks. is like to see the owners put a proposal giving the players what they want with a couple of caveats.
Minimum performance clauses that cut pay if performance is not met
Maximum time missed due to injury or there’s pay reductions
Also the way of the players. You achieve higher performance you earn a bigger contact regardless of status
If I was a player and I had to justify to fans the reason for them turning down nearly $1 billion of additional compensation, I’d mention this type of crap, too. But at the end of the day us fans will see this for what it is, the players aren’t interested in striking a deal, they’re interested in winning this CBA negotiation. To hell with the fans.
Wait so they were rule changes? Not really what the headline sort of implied. I assumed it was fine print altering say the CBT or service time.
So MLB tacked on some rule changes they thought they’d get the union to agree ln anyways. Their rule changes we’ve been hearing about for a while and other than the pitch clock they would seemingly benefit players. Less shifts means possibly more hits and less work on defense having to move around every batter. Larger base seems like it could be safer for runners and especially first baseman to no get stepped on.
Meh, not really feeling bad for the players here. Ross should be complaining that MLB won’t raise the pseudo salary cap and get MLB to reach a compromise there so we can move on.
Meanwhile I have to cancel our Arizona trip to Spring Training so my 6 and 12 year old could see their heroes. And the Arizona and Florida hotel, stadium, restaurant, and surrounding employees lose out on work. And countless other downstream effects such as lost marketing and sponsorship revenue is and will be lost.
But you’re right Ross, increasing the size of the base was a real doozy at the last minute.
ALL of the parties here can eff off.
Maybe your kids will figure out sports players are not heros. Maybe you can show them some video of the Ukrainian president instead.
HE is a hero.
My kids don’t have posters of President Zelensky in their room, but they are aware (at least the 12 year old) of the Russia-Ukraine war and we say a prayer for the Ukranian people every day on the way to school.
Zelensky and just as important, the Ukrainian people, are heroes.
Whenever I read the news of Ukrainian resistance to the invasion, my faith in humanity goes up a bit. When I read the comments on MLBTR, I lose all faith and hope.
If Congress can pass bills without knowing what’s in them so can the MLB .
The biggest difference in Congress is that they don’t care what’s in them, and when the bills pass, nobody’s trying to save money, they’re all spending way too much of it.
Actually, maybe we should switch the owners and Congress. We may end up with an exciting offseason and a relatively fiscally responsible government.
When has this Congress EVER been fiscally responsible?
Fortunately with no CBA and associated drug testing in place, the players were able to take all kinds of things to stay alert past midnight. lol
Strickland and wood combined made over 30 million playing BB and not exactly household names….. so what’s the problem sucks to be them…. let’s play ball..
Simple point: one bargaining party does not try to ‘slip in’ new clauses in the fine print unless they don’t care if they lose all credibility with the other party.
To try to ‘sneak’ something new in without alerting the other side while actively engaged in negotiations is lower than low. It’s down to rat level.
On the other hand the players could have just said “we will deal with rule changes later, but here is our position on the core economic plan”.
You’re right, but trying to slip something in during the middle of the night (apparently literally) is the ultimate bargaining in bad faith.
Neither side is “right.” I am a little disgusted at the players. I am completely disgusted with the owners. This isn’t 1981, with 3 or 4 channels and most people not having cable let alone streaming-on-the-go cell phones. People who would otherwise be baseball fans have many more options. NHL playoffs are coming up. There is going to be a spring football league. March Madness. Even track and field, the mile run world record might fall for the first time since 1999…my fifth grade son asked about when these mile races would be, asks about hockey, watches football and hockey with me…never brings up baseball, thinks baseball is “totally boring” when I have games on, and walks away.
Baseball was a limping old man with osteoarthritis who ate the Early Bird Special alone at Denny’s for a while…I think this labor idiocy (especially considering all the other things going on in the world today) may be moving the sport to hospice care.
Nicely articulated.
I’m totally tracking with you Thorton. MLB used to be what the NFL is today. It was America’s sport. Everyone, young or old, black or white, knows who Tom Brady is. Mike Trout is known in the sports world, but outside of sports, he’s not even close to Tom Brady.
The NFL is top tier. There’s a large canyon, then come the second tier leagues. MLB, the NBA, and for the most part the NHL have their niche and dedicated fan bases. For them to be “healthy” leagues, they need some type of American household (non-niche) relevance. This type of back and forth bickering, and canceling of games, not only pisses off the dedicated fan base, but it eats away at the American household non-niche relevance. THAT’S the part that Rob Manfred, Tony Clark, and the countless lawyers involved in this debacle don’t understand – they either don’t factor, or worse don’t care about, the casual SPORTS fan where the true relevancy of the SPORT (not just the league) lies.
Whether they want to admit it or not, the lack of relevancy leads to less Little Leaguers, less high school players, less restaurants showing the games on big screens, less sponsorships, less commercials, and ultimately less revenue. It’s OUR GAME, not theirs, and they’re effing it up for everyone.
Thornton: I think most people, when speaking about this as a whole, feel the same way as you do. Granted maybe some feel the scales tipped in the opposite direction with owners & players, but overall, yeah, I agree.
I didn’t think we could have a worse Commissioner than Bud Selig… but Manfred has proven me wrong.
There will be no real baseball season in 2022.
Maybe some lame 60-game, 16-team playoff thing they will call a season.
I have already predicted a 96-game season. The Mets will finish last with a 3-93 record.
if the owners are such evil, greedy people then why in the hell did Scherzer and Seager and Siemen and all the other players that signed a new contract actually make a deal?.
Why didn’t they show solidarity with all the underlings of the players union and said we won’t sign anything until there is a new CBA in place…huh?
They could have held out for more money under the new CBA. why strengthen the owners’ position?
OHHHHH…NOOOOO, they got their money deal in. They were more than happy to take the owners’ money, leaving all the middling players out to dry.
Get the fq out of here.
If this were true, why would Scherzer still be fighting for other player’s rights? He’s literally losing money because they’re not playing.
he can weather it in his sleep, but how about the free agent who is hoping to latch on to a team, with a mortgage and kid on the way…hmmm.
The relief pitcher who has been on 7 teams in his career, never earning that much but always finding a job, who needs that small contract in full to pay his bills, what about him?
Probably the best comment here.
@sniper What do you think has to do with what I said?
The only issue I have with this is it’s a straw man. How could these union guys know how this would play out for certain? And, obviously, the owners were not acting in an “evil manner” during the lockout by signing them. It’s possible that Scherzer, et al really support certain individual owners who want to spend, like Cohen, which is why he signed there and took that.
But to turn down an acceptable contract because one anticipates potential union-ownership issues in the future is so abstract it’s unrealistic. It’s no different than saying, “if the owners really felt this way, why did they pay these guys so much money then?”
Good for the MLBPA. If the owners want to make it a popularity contest, that probably isn’t going to turn out well for them.
Ahh yea I love it when I go to buy a car and see all the little fees the dealer is tacking on with unnecessary add-one we didn’t discuss or advise was part of the price.
About that Tru-coat… 🙂
The MLB Owners are so sleazy like a guy at a bar trying to slip something in somebodys drink ir like how Congress tries to put in pork in any piece of legislation.
So in short: MLB Owners = Congressmen = Creeps at the bar
You do realize that Stippling is the idiot here? Oh, probably not.
Or you are, for thinking that.
@Halo11, so how is Stripling the idiot for pointing out MLB’s tactics?
Typical owner behavior it seems like. Shouldn’t be much longer and they’ll start threatening to bring in scab players.
I’m not sure they can do that, at least without first lifting the lockout and then the players going on strike. Locking out players and then bringing in replacement players would surely violate multiple labor laws.
Not happening any time soon.
I still don’t understand the players union refusal to use an independent arbitrator. I’m not interested in anyone’s conspiracy theories here. The only ones getting screwed here are the Baseball fans. Both sides have blatant disregard for those who love the game.
The union isn’t giving anything of substance, their compromise is lowering their demands. An arbitrator would see through that BS pretty quickly.
Supposedly it would take an independent arbitrator too long to get up to speed to determine this effectively. And when they tried the mediator in 1994 the first comment was “well, let’s get rid of free agency.” No phrase will turn the players off faster to trying that again than that!
From the start, I was curious how MLB would handle labor negotiations in the age of social media, Twitter, and news sites such as the Athletic, Fangraphs and MLBTR that allow greater perspectives and voices to be heard. Turns out not so well.
It’s a given that writers will favor the union (even if it more like an association). The fact that they MLB-R, for example, writes moderately favorable coverage for the union doesn’t mean much. The readers will view these opinions much like they do when they read opinion pieces in the NYT or WSJ. The reader knows the opinions will be skewed and take that into consideration.
Or maybe they are actually writing with accuracy.
They aren’t. A days back, Anthony Franco was writing about percentage increases, and they were all wrong, by a lot. Steve Adams defended him, by saying he was referencing 2017 as the base year, instead of last year as the base year, and they were still wrong.
And, even in this article, as many of the posters pointed out, the owners had every right to make the rule changes with or without the players permission.
By not pointing that out, it’s kind of a sin of omission by the writer. I wouldn’t want to be ambushed at the last minute either, but the fact is, the owners could’ve left it out of the contract, signed, and implemented the changes in 2023,
The writer should’ve pointed that out.
@JoeBrady, I’m not quite sure where you’re going with this. To be clear(er) on my side hopefully, those running CBA and labor negotiations in general try to get public sentiment on their side. In decades past, it was easier for MLB to paint the players as the bad guys. Traditional media played into this, playing up the division on both sides. Diversification of media and the rise of social media has been a challenge for MLB in this negotiation. One doesn’t need to be pro player or union. Simply seeing the tactics and the timeline favor the players, which is why one poll shows only 16% of fans support owners. It’s not that they love the players position; it’s that they hate the owners more. That wouldn’t (and didn’t) happen during prior MLB negotiations when a higher percentage of fans were more pro owner.
Despite my verbal sabre-rattling, I’m neither pro player or pro owners. I believe both should get their share and the CBA allows for that negotiation and battle. It’s been clear to me in this negotiation that the owners have been the obstructionists in their approach, hence my pro-player words. To be fair, the players created this situation by negotiating bad deals the last few CBA’s. They can’t correct it all at once, but I support their attempt to take back some ground this time. If they don’t, the future labor battles will intensify and be even worse.
So with that, go MLBPA! I can miss games.
For the record, I am pro-Joey in this matter. What I object to is stupid demands that have no chance of being accepted, and only serve to obstruct the process. And I will criticize both sides for that. That’s what I thought of both sides on their initial cap demands. Both were non-starters.
But to the original direction with this, the media is blatantly pro-player on this. Part of this is probably self-interest, since they are best served by being friendly with the players. And part is probably because they traditionally side with labor.
MLB-R is not nearly as bad as some of them, being even in their articles, there are always some suggestions about why the players are right. I seldom see them suggest why the owners are right. Just in this article, the changes reported upon were already changes that the owners had the right to make.
Mr. Adams supplied 5 paragraphs saying how this was a sneak attack, but not a single sentence to acknowledging that the owners didn’t ask for anything new. That’s siding with the players, imo.
While Clark noted that the players were not necessarily opposed, the fact that MLB raised them so late in the process left the union with little to no time to discuss them — an obvious point of consternation.
===============================
The way I see it is that the owners tried to put in some late proposals not previously agreed. That would anger me as well.
But if Tony Clark says “the players were not necessarily opposed,” but were annoyed by how they were presented, then are we finished?
If the only thing standing in the way were the size of the bases, the pitch clock, and the shift, and the players don’t object to those changes, then why can’t they sign now?
You didn’t actually READ the article, did you? Here, let me help you.
“It got to be like 12:30 [in the morning] and the fine print of their CBT proposal was stuff we had never seen before,” says Stripling. “They were trying to sneak things through us, it was like they think we’re dumb baseball players and we get sleepy after midnight or something. … They pushed us to a deadline that they imposed, and then they tried to sneak some shit past us at that deadline and we were ready for it.”
Keywords are CBT proposal.
You didn’t actually READ my post, did you? Here, let me help you.
“The way I see it is that the owners tried to put in some late proposals not previously agreed. That would anger me as well.”
So, so far, I am in agreement with the players. They are angry and I would also be angry. Is there an issue there with me agreeing with the players? I didn’t think so.
Now, what about the rest of it? If the players have no objection to the three items in question (assuming that there is nothing else), then there is no reason to not sign. Am I missing something?
And, even if they disagreed, the owners already have to the fight to change the rules with a one-year notice. So what they added only codified rights they already possess.
Is there anything whatsoever wrong with what I said? I’m open to discussion, but I think this part of it is cut & dried.
It has been out there for weeks that the owners are willing to cancel 25% of the regular baseball season to achieve their CBA goals. Why is this contract offer a surprise? It shouldn’t be. It’s been obvious from day 1 what the owners are doing.
On the players side, they are making it personal which is ridiculous. They should consider themselves lucky and be thankful to be paid anything for playing baseball. Baseball players are employees. Period. Just employees, nothing more. Great players come along every year. Baseball players are replaceable. Believe it. Let’s all remember that. #MLB #MLBPA #CBA
I love this whole “I don’t care about watching the best players in the world play each other, I just want to watch baseball, I pull over and watch American Legion games sometimes. I ONLY go to MLB parks because I love paying a lot of money for things that I don’t think are any better” argument.
25% of their season is $3 billion in lost revenue. How bad must they be trying to F the players if they are willing to give up $3 billion to do it?
Last season you were complaining about players that didn’t belong in the majors and calling for contraction of the league because of it. Apparently you don’t believe that great players come along every year or that they are replaceable. MLB players are the elite. The best 780 at what they do in the world. They are not replaceable. What is replaceable is the owners. Any competent business owners could replicate what they do. Considering the fact that ALL team purchases not cash purchases and were financed with debt, that means anyone can do what they did. Add in the facts that all ballparks were financed with taxpayer money or contributions of public land or both and its clear that its the owners that are completely replaceable.
Is the policy for restricting obscenities in the comment section still in effect? If so, you may want to edit out a certain four-letter word in Stripling’s response, Steve. Hold yourself to the same standards to which you hold us…
The entitlement on both sides of this negoitation is disgusting. Can you see that?
If every single person or company with seasons tickets for any MLB team cancelled their subscription tmrw, both sides would settle their differences immediately and the season would proceed….we hv the power here not the owners or the players, but just like them, it would never happen as the fans r as divided as the owners!!!
We had to pay in full for our 2022 season tickets more than six months ago.
That’s ridiculous. The Yankees started doing that a few years back. I didn’t, and couldn’t know who was going to be available in February. It’s one of the reasons I dropped my plan(s). And I never looked back. That and their deal with Stubhub. Instead of me competing against Stubhub, using unsold NYY tickets, I use SH to my advantage by targeting last minute bargains.
They do it because they can.
Just for clarification, Joe, you’re a Red Sox fan.
I dont know what heppened but I can see, its human nature, after the owners already gave up so much, they tried to even the playing field a little by adding things in.
?
STAY STRONG OWNERS!!!!! IT”S YOUR RIGHT TO LIE TO THE PLAYERS AND NEGOTIATE IN BAD FAITH!!!! WHO TAUGHT THEM TO READ ANYWAY!!!!! BREAK THEM AND CRUSH THEM INTO POWDER AND SNORT THEM!!!!! NOTHING YOU DO IS EVER WRONG BY ME!!!!!!! PAT ME ON THE HEAD EVEN ONCE PLEASE I’M BEGGING YOU!!!!!!
Wow, people who want to see baseball played are STILL standing beside the owners. I just find it laughable. These would be the people on the Titanic as the end of the ship goes in the air saying “they said that it couldn’t be sunk.”
This is an OWNER-INSTITUTED LOCKOUT, not a player strike. For baseball to begin, the owners need only lift the lockout. The season would be played under the terms of the previous CBA until an agreement is reached. Owners know fans want baseball and refuse to provide it.
Until we see open books from ownership – not vague figures or books so redacted that you can’t tell if its an income statement or a description of the stadium – then you can’t believe a word the ownership side says about losing money, about struggling, etc. The books are hidden for a reason, because the ownership knows making them public reduces their ability to stand on that. Player salary details are made public for the same reason, it makes owners look better.
And the head doofus of them all, Manfred, chuckles about the effects of it all. He’s laughing most of all at the fans who are standing beside the owners.
Owners don’t care about baseball, they care about revenue. Don’t give them any. I already have spent zero dollars on any MLB-related items over the past 3 years (besides the portion of my streaming service bill gets funneled to them) so I can’t give less. Cancel your season ticket plans. Don’t buy merchandise. Attend a college or high school or little league game instead.
Yeah because ending the season early due to a strike is much better than starting a month late. Smdh.
Put down the bong dude, the players would go on strike without a new CBA that is why the owners did the preemptive thing to cut players off from their money instead of letting them earn enough to build a war chest before going on strike.
The Players Association is very well funded without having to build a “war chest” based on earnings from this season alone. They have set up training facilities all in their own. I doubt that broke the bank.
Manfred lied…again and tried sneaky stuff after midnight? Tell me it isn’t so!!
These two entities have screwed this game up so badly over the last 50 years, it’s just not funny anymore. When you make so many changes in a short period of time, people stop being able to recognize what they used to know. I said that they’d probably get me back after this lockout was over, but I’m really not so sure anymore. This isn’t the game I grew up with. This isn’t the game I used to love to listen to, and watch. They’ve changed in season trading. They’re changing the draft. They are changing the DH rule. They are changing the luxury tax structure. They are changing how much time a pitcher can have to make a pitch. There is no consistency in this sport anymore. Those are just the recent changes, and the proposed changes for this contract. They’ve used analytics to nullify the most exciting parts of the game. Eff all of them.
Since Rob Manfred views the World Series trophy as just a “piece of metal,” maybe it makes more sense in future years to have the head of the MLBPA present the trophy?
Today was my hoped-for deadline a deal will be reached. I’ll remain optimistic for a deal near term, but it will be delayed optimism!
I do not approve of an International Draft. Signing days are just fine by me.
Agreed. I say get rid of the amateur draft too, at least for the top 100 or 200 prospects, and move to something like the international draft.. give the small and mid market teams more to spend for competitive balance and let the players sign where they want.
International Draft is THEE best piece of competitive bargaining puzzle. But since the PA’s greatest goal is to bleed the largest market franchises more it doesn’t make sense to them.
This is worse than clickbait. If stripling actually said this he’s the idiot. Because who on earth would read a contract…seriously
Boycott this season at least. The fans need to send a message. Call and cancel your tickets and write the owner of your favorite team. We pay the salaries, and it is time to say no more of these stoppages or no more fans.
There are definitely sneaky and dishonest ways to do that.. but it seems like Stripling is just describing bargaining. The league conceded on a number of items and asked for something in return. Who knows though? There is so much bad blood between these two groups..
How many of you would pay up to five dollars to watch a steel cage match between Clark and Manfred?
Clark’s a big dude Manfred is done in a few seconds
What if we give Manfred rocket boosters as a handicap?
Sounds like people are negotiating without any negotiation skills. These are shady accusations. Why not stick to the facts, find common ground, and resolve it? Simply put, it is ego coupled with stupidity. Manfred continues to solidify his legacy as one of the worst commissioners in the modern era.
There’s only one way to resolve this dispute…Arbitration. It’s 1994 all over again, only this time, it’s the owners doing it. Can’t see it being fixed any other way.
Both sides have to agree to that. The PA has rejected it at least twice.
The players are cry babies. Bigger bases should have been done 40 years ago. especially a safe base at 1b which is twice as big, half painted orange which is in foul territory and the runner touches the orange. No more collisions at first base.. What is to discuss ? Pitch clock there is something that needs extensive analysis…. oh yeah 20 or 22…Well lets negotiate , lets start with 25 seconds then 20 by the end of the contract. But MLB we only agree if you put another 50 million in the pot… Braves make 20 million in profit last year…No they dont say the players they made 100 million… No a financial analyst says 100 million is cash flow… What is cash flow say the players… and Jeff Passan and most of the analyst on this site buy it..
You can’t be on the side of the rich owners… They can’t be right..
Cry me a river babies, I am sending a donation to Ukraine relief.
TigerFan1968
Bigger bases should have been done 40 years ago. especially a safe base at 1b which is twice as big, half painted orange which is in foul territory and the runner touches the orange. No more collisions at first base.. What is to discuss ? Pitch clock there is something that needs extensive analysis…. oh yeah 20 or 22…Well lets negotiate , lets start with 25 seconds then 20 by the end of the contract.
===================================
I thought the same thing about the clock. One second per year. Pitches should be able to adjust.
IRT the bases, the players are idiots of they don’t accept that. In fact, they should’ve demanded it. My softball league made that change 30 years ago. There was a base for the 1B and a base for the runner. Heck, even the umps should agree to this since it makes the runner’s interference an easier call.
it is insane that the players wouldn’t want a rule which clearly, clearly makes the game safer for them,
Things you don’t hear the PA asking for but would make BASEBALL better:
– Salary Floor & Cap
– International Draft
– Larger Bases
– Banning The Shift
– Pitch Clock
– Limiting Instant Replay
– Abolishing the Divisions
– Expanded Playoffs
– Every Team plays one another home and away once a year
As a lifelong fan I couldn’t care less if the players are making 25x more than I am or if the owners are making 500x more than I am. Just play the game! No one will walk into a baseball stadium, sit in their 60 dollar seat with their 10 dollar beer and 7 dollar nachos and think “boy am I glad we worked out these core economics”. The fact that the league are the only side discussing things to make the product better and the players are only talking about money should speak volumes.
Also ENOUGH of this “I root for players not owners” nonsense. This isn’t Fantasy Baseball, you root for a TEAM. Mets fans didn’t care if Max Scherzer lived or died last year but this year…different story wonder why?
Expanded playoffs does not make baseball better. We don’t need 79-win teams like the Mets making the playoffs. This isn’t the NBA.
Don’t you worry, the Mets will find a way to miss the playoffs.
So you institute a salary floor, and you have teams that spend wisely, and in order to meet the floor, they have to sign a player, or two to a much higher salary than their value to the team would be. What is your solution to that? That affects arbitration, and FA contracts in the next season, and beyond. A salary floor is a good idea only to those who haven’t really thought about it much, but think it sounds good.
good points and then Scherzer and the Mets snuck into your writing, the two biggest reasons no baseball in April this year.
This article is vague.. This player is not helping their situation. The players are upset because the last time cut a deal, they were apparently incompetent. Look who’s at the table now leading the charge. I am not confident in the players representation. The owners and employers have a right to make money, a lot of it. The players do not have a right to their profits. Furthermore, The owners have come up with some very aggressive increases. Don’t you wish you had that in your job? The mid level to poor teams do not want to give up sharing and they do not want higher tax thresholds because they want to be able to compete. So that’s why the players want to increase the pool which can be taken advantage of by the rich teams. MLB knows that and is protecting the teams that make bad decisions from going belly up. To make some profit in this league a teams payroll needs to be 28%-32% of Revenues, not EBIDTA; that’s not a real indicator of anything in baseball. With that; a poor to mid market team can afford two $200 Million Dollar guys. The rule changes coming in 2023 will help get back baseball to look like baseball again. The draft lottery improvement is a good move too.
Win Cor
This player is not helping their situation. The players are upset because the last time cut a deal, they were apparently incompetent.
======================================
I said a year ago that the problem would that the union doesn’t want to get embarrassed again. It took me all of 2-3 seconds to recognize that the last contract was a disaster for the players. Now the players want to look good, but don’t know how.
Even now, the players are holding onto things that are NOT going to work in their best interests.
Larger bases, or better yet, a batters bag at 1st should be automatic.
Secondly, their idea of a lottery and reduced revenue-sharing will be another disaster. KC once spent $185M on their payroll. If they want KC to spend again, they need to help KC get better. If KC is not in contention, why would they spend anything?
Further, the more you open up the lottery, the more temptation there will be for teams to tank their way into the lottery. The Cubs will never be as bad as the O’s, so they will never compete with the O’s for the #1 pick. But if 8 teams are in the lottery, then there will be another 8 teams looking to tank themselves into the lottery.
The players are screwing themselves again, and the owners are going to let them.
How many great players come early in the draft anyway? To me that is pretty colors and shiny objects. The key is to protect the teams that make bad decisions while keeping revenue sharing at a level that let’s poor and mid market teams take risks. Like bringing in 4 veteran ballplayers to jack up attendance, like it used to be. The tax thresholds cannot be any higher than they are right now. We saw the Dodgers buy everyone and lose last year. It sucked. Rent-a-Teams suck. Smaller market teams can’t compete at the trade deadline. That’s another thing that needs to stop. Not every team can be the STL Cardinals…what they do defies logic over there. LOL! The owners have come up on minimum salaries to a place that is unbelievable. Shame on the players union, not jumping on that.. A 1 or 1..5 Million dollar bonus pool for each team is more than enough as a yearly thank you to spread among rookies and young ball players. The players are dead wrong on this. If they are not careful the Owners will put on concerts, rodeos, political rallies and monster truck rallies in their place…..and break the union for being idiots.
Break the union. Pure and simple. There are baseball players all over the world who would replace the 1200 major league ball players on 40-man rosters tomorrow.
Go do something else Ross Stripling. Who cares what you do if you aren’t playing baseball.
BREAK THE UNION FOREVER!!!
I’ve had baseball for two weeks. The college baseball season started. I watch junior college games and high school games.
If you aren’t getting enough money already to play in MLB then get out of the way and let someone else play.
BREAK THE UNION FOREVER!!!
how did that work last time … bwha ha ha ha ha ha
I could not agree more; if the players do not understand what is in front of them.
The MLBPA keep running their immature mouths, and bash the owners every chance they get, thinking fans are going to think of them as the ‘little guy’. The owners moved on EVERY single issue except Super 2, and gave them a bonus pool and a draft lottery. There’s no way this isn’t a dramatically better deal than they’ve ever had in history. It’s all about getting massive paydays for the elite few by expanding the CBT threshold so the Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox, etc can set new high bars for premium players, ensuring that at least half the teams will never be able to prevent their players from testing the market instead of reasonable extensions. On the flip side, only foolish teams will give a Tatis 14 year deals so early in their careers to keep them long term. I am firmly on the side of MLB in waiting this out. Runaway inflation in professional sports is a very bad look for the players to hang their hopes on in today’s society.
The players and representatives of the players claiming the owners tried to sneak those three things in are just playing the media and trying to make the owners look bad. And it’s asinine that they would even claim that.
All three things have been brought up numerous times over the last few years as I’ve read numerous articles on each. And from what I understand, MLB can introduce a rule change and institute it a year later no matter if the players agree or not. And none of those three things are a big deal anyway.
Now, if the owners tried to add fine print that says they can set a new league minimum one year later then that would be sneaky…but that obviously didn’t happen.
These players are a disgrace. I mean to complain and wine about a $130,000 per year raise and an extra $30 million for top pre-arbitration players is ridiculous. Even the CBT is fair in my mind. It’s helped make baseball extremely competitive. Since 2000, 15 different teams have won the World Series. In my mind, that’s amazing. 15 different WS champion teams in 22 years. I don’t think MLB has ever been more competitive.
Players are still making millions of dollars and they can win a WS playing for any team. MLB has made it possible for players to become millionaires by playing just 2 years in the league. $700,000 minimum salary for 1 year. Most people don’t make $60,000 a year, but players want more than $700,000? That’s ridiculous.
Now, if they were trying to get minor leaguers higher salaries, I would back them all the way. But they don’t care about those guys.
Stripling is not the union spokesperson. The union spokesperson has not supported Stripling’s claim. No one has.
For San Diego Tatis was a desperate move not because he isn’t a great talent. It’s because the rolled the dice. Because they saw a shot at building a franchise Because in reality they cannot afford the team they have for more than a hot minute. They are close to a fire sale. They must win now. It’s dollars and sense….
Same ol’ same ol’ owners are still refusing to negotiate in relinquishing any ground in regards to money or control while it is still all of the players fault for this situation.
The owners haven’t relinquished any ground?
Are you Ross Stripling?
@cfstupid
The owners agreed to increase the minimum by $100,000.00 per prearb player plus an additional $30MM to be dispersed to that same group. The union does not want too many FAs in the same year as that reduces a FAs value. Just like six SSs this year are making it tougher for Correa and Story to get what had been expected. It is however, both sides fault.
My god the number of water carriers in here for ownership is really sad. The knees must be highly polished on some of these clowns …SMH
Pointing out where the players are wrong is not water carrying for the owners. However, writing the owners gave up nothing is water carrying for the players.
Young good players need to get paid more. The luxury tax threshold should be a speed bump and not a barrier.
Literally everything else is noise. Stripling comments are imbecilic noise.
no, but the overt love of ownership reeks of paid shills by an industry
Let me help some more.
I understand Manford laughed when talking about the loss of games.
Man… What an idiot.
With a clown like Manfort in charge, no wonder we don’t have an agreement.
Very weak response. Very, very weak.
I find most of the responses in here to be fairly accurate, with some posters always siding with the owners, and a few more always siding with the players.
Are the ones that always side with the players on their knees? Or this just one of those “my side is always right” responses?
Almost as many water carriers for the owners in here as there are for the players. Almost. You must need knee replacements by now, renhoek
lick my taint loser, go be the billionaires whip[ping boy
as opposed to being a water carrier for unions, which destroy every industry they touch.
really, how’s that minimum wage coming along in that great country of yours
Yes… We need more politics.
The players and representatives of the players claiming the owners tried to sneak those three things in are just playing the media and trying to make the owners look bad. And it’s asinine that they would even claim that.
All three things have been brought up numerous times over the last few years as I’ve read numerous articles on each. And from what I understand, MLB can introduce a rule change and institute it a year later no matter if the players agree or not. And none of those three things are a big deal anyway.
Now, if the owners tried to add fine print that says they can set a new league minimum one year later then that would be sneaky…but that obviously didn’t happen.
These players are a disgrace. I mean to complain and wine about a $130,000 per year raise and an extra $30 million for top pre-arbitration players is ridiculous. Even the CBT is fair in my mind. It’s helped make baseball extremely competitive. Since 2000, 15 different teams have won the World Series. In my mind, that’s amazing. 15 different WS champion teams in 22 years. I don’t think MLB has ever been more competitive.
Players are still making millions of dollars and they can win a WS playing for any team. MLB has made it possible for players to become millionaires by playing just 2 years in the league. $700,000 minimum salary for 1 year. Most people don’t make $60,000 a year, but players want more than $700,000? That’s ridiculous.
Now, if they were trying to get minor leaguers higher salaries, I would back them all the way. But they don’t care about those guys.
As far as what the players want, I think the players are mostly right. But with the comments of Clark and Stripling, I’m very concerned the players are not represented by adults.
My hope is Clark knows he’s postering. My fear is Stripling is an immature idiot.
I Agree with you but I don’t think the CBT threshold still provides a huge advantage for big market teams. While you are right that 15 different teams have won the WS, only three of them have been in the bottom half of revenue. This does not diminish your point, it strengthens it.
The NFL just had some of the most exciting playoffs you’ve ever seen, the NBA is eclipsing MLB in popularity, and this nonsense continues. Its embarrassing but most of all, depressing. They really don’t give a darn about the fans. Ownership really just won’t budge on anything
Screw them all
Players need to get off twitter and play video games for a few weeks.
Owners need to focus solely on there other investments for the same amount of time.
If they both find they miss baseball, as in the actual game of baseball, not baseball P&Ls or baseball crusades of good over evil, they should reconvene. If the actual enjoyment of the game doesn’t trump P&L’s and crusades in a few weeks, they all need to pass on their baton to new folks.
Unbelievable that these 2 groups try and win a World Series together.
Waaaaahhh!! Whiny players getting paid millions to play a game to be in the 1%.
At what point do owners want to make MLB a slow pitch softball league with a 2 hour game clock. This is bad.
It’s like the NFL is like tag football in Kevlar suits…
Brings the South Park episode “Sarcastaball” to mind
STFU stripling, here’s hoping you are out of work this year!
This clown mouthing off, Mike Trout chirping his two cents knowing he has 100 MILLION in the bank says they have to get this right. What an absolute tool.
You are the only clown here. Read up and learn what the owners have been doing. Without the players, the owners don’t become billionaires. The players can certainly go play somewhere else, and that would send a statement.
The players aren’t making the owners billionaires. The owners were all billionaires to begin with which is why they were able to buy a MLB team. They all earned their billions before becoming a team owner.
If owning teams or starting a new league is so easy, then the players should do it. Otherwise, just be grateful the owners agreed to raise the minimum salary from $570,000 to $700,000 a year. The players should also be grateful that the owners agreed to put $30 million aside each year for the top pre-arbitration players to split. The average person makes less than $60,000 a year and they are crying over $130,000 raise? Despicable.
It does not surprise me that the owners are sneaky and snake-y. They wanted to cut the season down and prorate salaries because other than opening day, the major league owners don’t care until warmer weather and schools are out. I am betting all of April into May will be lost. Maybe 32 games. The owners saving The money of a one-fifth cut to the salaries because of lost game checks will not translate to a one-fifth loss of game day revenue. Somebody at mlbtrade rumors should work to quantify that. Cut out 32 games in July and August and the owners will be the ones screaming. Not all games, though paid the same to the players, are equal to the owners.
Definitely not how you run a CBA negotiation. A lack of trust. The players might even agree to those, but dropping them in unannounced and without discussion is a non-starter.
Subtext: Heyman is not a useful source during these times.
Yeah, pretty excellent call on that. Really, he struggles to be a reliable source on almost anything these days.
of course The players would never ever in 1 million years even remotely consider the faint possibility of sneaking anything past the owners.
Think of it like steroids. It’s only really worth noting if you get caught cheating.
In the end I just really don’t get it. When the lockout started the league showed it’s teeth right away with the public statement that basically said it was all the players fault. Great way to start a negotiation. Sure, it means you’re trying to win a public opinion war but has overall public opinion really shifted to one side or the other in any meaningful way?
Then it really came down to the 11th hour where both sides seemed convinced the other would give in. And now with cancelled games all that’s happened it seems is there’s even more to argue about than before.
This really is pathetic.
It’s sad to believe that the sport and culture I love has become so cynically greedy and evil
Owners have anti trust exemption already and then they get caught being unethical in labor talks by “dumb ass baseball players”is the ultimate classic work by the player reps.Cheers to the men standing for every little kid with a dream.Minors conditions are typical slave owner mentality.Food,living quarters,medical trainers,equipment,facilities are all 3rd world conditions for our kids tring to make it to the show.Boo to the freaking 75% of greedy, clueless slum lords.
75% of owners don’t give a shit about their product or their employees health and safety.Minors system of inhumane housing,food,medical staff(not 1 freaking guy for 30 kids) & education.Owners get a F and half of them should be arrested for the deliberate lack of nutrition and healthy foods.Not to mention 4 guys to a room who’s per diem doesn’t cover McDonald’s and a hotel room.Pathedic human trafficking with substandard human conditions.Most of the kids are not bonus babies and their job of playing baseball is gendered!
This is between the MLB and MLBPA…minor leaguers aren’t represented, cool rant though
Hender not auto spell gender.peace!
40 games is a quarter of the schedule.Lloyds of London insure the leagues players,attendance,& games played.1 missed game is 40 to the owners.A quarter of a contract finished allows the owners financial reserve on the contracts policies.Now the paper (contract)can be bought and Lloyds of London will sale the 3/4 left on the deal to very willing companies.Everyone makes money but the players.
I’m to the point where they can just cancel the season. I’m betting that new leagues will form by summer, maybe not MLB caliber but not $100 a ticket either
Wileycoyote I like your thinking!But it’s impossible to compete for players when MLB has Anti Trust Exemption.Somebody smarter can explain the difference.But to ballpark a number.The new league would probably have to double MLB attendance to make the same money as MLB owners.Be cool if the league would be awarded Anti Trust and every new franchise was public stock with strict rules on the amount that can be owned per family business etc.Blue color league would be cool.True democracy by the people for the people.Right ?
Stripling is probably not wrong but he sounds uneducated through his approach and argument.
It’s a dumb statement picked up by dumb media without any real substance.
I have posted enough times that Revenue is not Profit (Amazon great revenue, profit not so good) .. Cash Flow is not Profit.. We saw the Braves financials,, OK but not great. Not investible and I say that because Liberty that owns the Braves has the stock valued at 1/2 the so called value of the Braves (2.7 billion)..
Time to talk about Median Mean or Average Salary, Total Salary. Simple Stats OK. Now if Ohtani’s next contract is 50 million the Mean, and Total Salary goes way up but the Mean which is more important stays the same.
The mean is the number where half the players make more and half the players make less. This works in Stats where distribution is fair but not in sports.
The ONLY stat that matters is what is the number where 50 per cent, 60, 70, 80 percent of the players fall under. In other words are the VAST Majority of the players doing significantly better under a new contract. The answer is a RESOUNDING yes. Minimum salaries are going way up…
The great news for the vast majority of the players is not enough as the top 2 percent want more, a lot more. They are holding out because but folks if the hungry people are getting more of the pie the fat folks at the table are gonna get less.
It would appear you have a formal education in business or economics. It would also appear you have significant real world / professional experience in these matters. That’s refreshing. How many MLB players have earned an MBA or even have an undergrad degree in business or economics?. How many have any business experience at a senior management level. How many people commenting here are paid for this type of analysis or have anything to do with these issues on a regular basis? Great points and nice to see an educated opinion but this debate among fans is not a product of well-reasoned conclusions among people who understand these parameters.
I’d guess a large portion of the people that comment on here are under 25, have maybe an intro to Econ course under their belt, and little to no real world experience with running or managing a company.
I am sure many are young but someone who has had accounting 101 knows the difference between revenue and profit. I think the real influence here is more ethnocentric. Most people are employees. Therefore, they side rather blindly with players (employees). Some of it as petty as hating people because they are rich which is a sad comment on our culture. Who is more inclined to look out for their customer, an employee or a business owner? Anyone who does not have a very clear impression has not been around many business owners.
Great points. Because consumers can walk away, the business owner cares a lot more about the product than the employee.
It’s preposterous to suggest players care more about the game than the owners. But yet I read and hear it all the time.
I would love to see what would happen if baseball shut down permanently and these cry babies had to get a real job, instead of getting paid multi million dollars to play a game for six months and bat, on average .230. What a bunch of, what amounts to, spoiled entitled brats that never worked a day in their lives, and for the most part, compared to when it was a game, do not display any heroism or excel at what they do. Go to work! Or should I say, “Go to play!”
Exactly. The players are being cry babies. Well said.
The players doing the negotiating are not the ones that would have to get real jobs.
At least Stripling’s concerns are real. “MLB’s proposal suddenly included notable changes regarding the luxury tax. Stripling implies that the changes extend beyond mere alterations to the threshold levels and penalty rates — instead featuring completely new items that had not been previously presented.” These are the details we need to see.
Those raised by union leader Tony Clark (a series of rule changes for the 2023 season that would see defensive shifts limited, the size of bases expanded and the implementation of a pitch clock) are the distraction. As usual, he bites on the misdirection.
A guess:
MLBPA wouldn’t agree to wording so MLB put it in “their” way because they know, as long as it wasn’t included in writing in some form, the players would keep pushing back.
Base size is not meaningless but won’t even be noticed once implemented. Or the analytics will be adjusted to account for the inch or two.
Pitch clock? Meh.
And I think batters should adapt to the shift: You are getting paid good money, figure it out!
Owners: You know that the season could be completely cancelled and that the country would hardly care or even notice (because baseball is culturally irrelevant) and you also know that you could easily find much better ROI’s than MLB. MLB players are already extremely well paid, treated great in general, ungrateful, greedy, and selfish in exchange for playing a game with a stick and a ball and mittens 7-8 months per year and you know it. Lifetime benefits after 6 weeks on a MLB roster, many of them receive signing bonuses (frequently major bonuses) before ever playing their first professional game, entry level salary is in the top 1% of incomes, average salary (more than $4 million!!!) is in the top 1/10th of 1% of incomes, playoff bonuses, awards bonuses, free tickets for friends/family/etc., daily food allowance, luxury hotels, luxury travel accommodations, etc. Enough is enough- stop being weak and stop allowing MLBPA to make you look like chump pushovers. Hold the line! Stop giving in! BREAK THE MLBPA UNION!
Hey Voice, usually I don’t comment about other people’s right to free speech; but all I ever see from you is anti-union stuff and negative comments about baseball in general. If you don’t like baseball, why are you even here? I definitely do not agree that baseball is “culturally irrelevant”. Is it on par with the NFL & NBA? No, not any longer; however, all of the news programs and internet sites lamenting that baseball isn’t starting on time says otherwise. Culturally, baseball has long been ingrained into the fabric of American life. It signals the start of spring. A new beginning; a rebirth, ifbyou will. Now I sound like Morgan Freeman. But it’s true. If it was irrelevant, people wouldn’t care. And I’m seeing just the opposite and even a thousand messages won’t change that.
I’m truly starting to wonder if there will even be a 2022 season.
With people like Stripling in the room, you might be right.
These players are the same children that were coddled as youth players by mommy and daddy, and fail to comprehend how the real world works inside their insulated little bubbles of elitism. Owners are running a business, these guys are employees. The childish lashing out by these players is really off putting as a baseball fan. I’m not a fan of players I’m a fan of my team.
“Essentially, we’re rooting for laundry.” – Jerry Seinfeld
These selfish Players and Owners are obviously not watching the world news, there are way more important things going on in the world and this country has more division in it than ever before,get together and let’s go,this is ridiculous, the players need to back off the CBT a little bit,owners will never go to 263 on the CBT after 4 yrs. And the owners need to get off 220 after 1yr and get to 250 with penalties after that maybe as high as 100%
If the MLBPA never expressed optimism about a deal being done, then why did Stripling tell a reporter earlier that same day that he was frantically calling real estate agents trying to find a spring training home?
Just thinking about this. Adding stuff to a contract is not a big deal. So Stripling is either an idiot for being offended by this or he is trying to inflame the idiots into being offended by this.
Politicians do this all the time, how’s that working out?
When one side tries to demonize the other side, be afraid, be very afraid.
Looks like they tried to sneak it in the back again.
It really is time to get rid of @MLB anti-trust exception. @SenWarren Let the players & potential new owners have more power to threaten a new league.