The Cardinals have added their desired top-of-the-rotation starter. St. Louis announced the signing of right-hander Sonny Gray to a three-year guarantee with a club option for the 2027 season. It’s a reported $75MM deal, while the option is valued at $30MM and comes with a $5MM buyout (which is included in the overall guarantee).
Gray, who celebrated his 34th birthday earlier this month, hit free agency on the heels of a dominant 2023 campaign with the Twins that saw him earn his third career All Star appearance and finish as the runner-up in AL Cy Young award voting behind Yankees righty Gerrit Cole. The veteran hurler posted a sterling 2.79 ERA (54% better than league average by measure of ERA+) along with an MLB-best 2.83 FIP in 184 innings of work across 32 starts. His 24.3% strikeout rate was a top-25 figure among qualified starters this season, while his 47.3% groundball rate ranked ninth among that same group. Only Framber Valdez, Zach Eflin, Justin Steele, and Kyle Bradish posted better figures in both stats this year.
The deal will be the first free agent contract of Gray’s 11-year major league career, as the 18th overall pick of the 2011 draft signed an extension with the Reds upon being traded to Cincinnati in early 2019 that covered the 2020-22 seasons, with a team option for 2023. At the time of the three-year, $30.5MM deal, Gray was coming off a brutal 2018 campaign with the Yankees that saw him post a 4.90 ERA (86 ERA+) with a 4.17 FIP. Fortunately for both the Reds and Gray, the righty quickly turned things around with a 2.87 ERA, 175 1/3 inning performance during the 2019 season. Altogether, Gray posted a 3.22 ERA (138 ERA+) and 3.34 FIP over the life of his extension, though the final two seasons of the deal were spent with the Twins after the righty was shipped to Minnesota in exchange for right-hander Chase Petty just before the 2022 season.
Strong as Gray’s platform season in 2023 was, there were some potential red flags in his performance. Most notably, Gray allowed a microscopic 5.2% of his fly balls to leave the yard for home runs, by far a career low that flies in the face of his career-high 6.9% barrel rate. That disparity leaves Gray with expected stats that are significantly less impressive than his actual production last season, including a 3.64 xFIP and a 3.95 SIERA. While those are both still top-20 figures among qualified starters this season, it’s reasonable to be concerned that Gray’s elite home run prevention figures may not hold up over time, particularly as he enters his mid-thirties. Of course, a move from the Twins’ home ballpark of Target Field (which has played slightly homer-friendly in recent years) to the Cardinals’ home field of Busch Stadium could help alleviate those concerns to some extent. While Busch played as an essentially neutral ballpark in terms of home runs in 2023, the stadium has been among the best for suppressing the long ball in recent years.
Though a deal for Gray comes with its fair share of risk, it’s hard to imagine a team better situated to enjoy the benefits of his services than the Cardinals. St. Louis starters posted a collective ERA of 5.02 in 2023, the fifth-worst figure in the majors. The club’s struggles with starting pitching this season led president of baseball operations John Mozeliak to announce the club’s desire to add three starting pitchers this winter to a rotation that included little certainty beyond veteran righty Miles Mikolas headed into 2024. Between deals for Lance Lynn, Kyle Gibson, and now Gray, St. Louis has accomplished that goal before the calendar flips to December.
Lynn and Gibson both pitched to the results of a back-end starter in 2023 with ERAs of 5.73 and 4.73, respectively. Adding Gray to the mix gives the Cardinals a bonafide, front-of-the-rotation arm to whom they could confidently assign a playoff start to as they look to turn things around on the heels of a 91-loss season that saw them finish dead last in the NL Central this year. Gray was among the top free agent starters this winter, coming in at the #9 spot of MLBTR’s Top 50 MLB free agents list with a projected four-year, $90MM contract. That projection ended up a year and $15MM above the contract Gray received, though our $22.5MM projected average annual value was actually slightly below the $25MM figure Gray ultimately received.
It’s possible the deal completes the club’s 2024 rotation with a projected starting five of Gray, Mikolas, Gibson, Lynn, and left-hander Steven Matz. That would make for a rotation entirely comprised of veteran arms well past their 30th birthdays; Matz, 33 in May, would be the youngest of the group. That being said, it’s at least feasible the club could look to add a younger arm to the rotation later in the offseason. Matz has seen considerable use out of the bullpen during his two years in St. Louis, leaving a plausible path to a fourth rotation addition should the club to make one. In addition to Gray, the Cardinals have been connected to both NPB ace Yoshinobu Yamamoto and a potential reunion with southpaw Jordan Montgomery this offseason.
That being said, it’s unclear whether the signing of Gray will preclude the club from adding either of those arms from a payroll perspective. It’s worth noting that Mozeliak has indicated payroll could stay relatively stagnant compared to last year’s expected figure prior to their sell-side moves at the trade deadline. That would likely leave the Cardinals with around $40-50MM of payroll space to work with this offseason, $22MM of which has already been dedicated to the signings of Gibson and Lynn. Between the $25MM reported cost for Gray and the Cardinals’ reported desire to add multiple arms to the bullpen this offseason, the club seemingly has minimal financial wiggle room for other moves of significance going forward.
In addition to the $75MM the Cardinals are committed to Gray, the club stands to lose their second-highest pick in the 2024 draft and $500K in international bonus pool space from the signing of a qualified free agent. The Twins, who extended Gray a qualifying offer earlier this month, are in line to receive a compensatory draft pick after the first round in next year’s draft, as Gray signed for more than $50MM. It’s the second consecutive offseason during which St. Louis has signed a qualified free agent after the Cardinals signed catcher Willson Contreras away from the Cubs last winter.
The Cardinals weren’t the only known suitor for Gray’s services this winter, as the Braves have frequently been connected to the right-hander in recent weeks. It’s unclear whether the Braves ultimately made an offer to Gray, but the veteran righty represents the second front-of-the-rotation arm Atlanta has shown interest in who ultimately signed elsewhere this offseason. The club reportedly offered right-hander Aaron Nola a deal worth $162MM over six years prior to him landing with the Phillies on a seven-year, $172MM deal. While there’s still plenty of front-of-the-rotation caliber arms available this offseason, it’s worth noting that Atlanta’s financial outlook is somewhat murky and the club has already signed Reynaldo Lopez to a three-year deal with an eye toward stretching him out as a starter.
Jon Heyman of the New York Post first reported the Cardinals and Gray were likely to finalize a contract. Ken Rosenthal of the Athletic reported it would be a three-year, $75MM guarantee. Derrick Goold of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch reported the option value.
Image courtesy of USA Today Sports.
dbacksrs
Nice signing.
Captain-Judge99
I was hoping Sonny was coming back to the Yankees! Lmao!
User 3044878754
The Guardians were runners up
tstats
Keep up the stupid schtick
Boxscore
Nice. Pitchers coming off the board and the Red Sox front office is busy playing circle jerk.
GASoxFan
Red Sox shouldn’t have decided to be in on Gray anyways, so, I dont think that’s a fair assessment
Boxscore
I’d take Gray over Snell for what he’s asking. And Yomomato they put all eggs in that basket and he signs elsewhere then you6 praying Montgomery doesn’t resign with Rangers. Point is the market is picking up and once again Sox are MIA on top pitchers.Tick tock…
JoeBrady
Yomomato they put all eggs in that basket a
=========================
You either want Gray or you don’t. Signing guys that you don’t like, just because you might not get the guy you do want, sounds like a losing strategy to me.
Or put another way, the Cards landed 3 SPs already, but are they any good?
HBRC1987
Snell is younger than Gray and is a lefty so he is much more valuable.
diggin4three
We all knew the rotation is more than one big move away from being formidable, and we also knew there’s not enough money available to buy everything our club needs. At least Mo & Co stepped up for one of the better arms available. I’m sure that’s better than a lot of us thought would happen, I know I was pleasantly surprised. I expected to eventually hear/read more of the same ole excuses explaining why Mo came up empty.
Mad Hatter
I still wonder why he was so effective on the road, but had so much trouble in Yankee Stadium. Then he leaves and is runner-up to Cole for CY. Was it the pitching coach? I remember seeing that they wanted him to decrease pitching up in the zone in NY. It worked very well for the Twins. Whatta ya think?
TrillionaireTeamOperator
I think it was a few factors.
I think one factor was Yankee stadium- some stadiums hurt or help a pitcher and if it hurts and it’s the home park, a lot more games to pitch there and not do as well in.
I think another one is that the Yankees did this weird thing of hyping him up as a major acquisition they viewed as a long term middle of the rotation arm and then they immediately soured on him, both of which probably impacted Gray psychologically.
I am sure their pitching coaches and analytics guys tried to ‘fix’ some things about Gray that messed up his mechanics and going to the Reds allowed him to re-calibrate back to what worked for him and the Reds and Twins pitching staffs did a much better job of working with Gray rather than working on Gray.
I also think that there are some players who sign with a team or get traded to a team and it becomes immediately clear that it is not a good fit. There’s something culturally with the organization or the player that doesn’t mesh and the player and the team feel uncomfortable and the player struggles or overthinks.
I don’t think it’s that Gray couldn’t handle the New York media or the pressure of Yankee Stadium. I think it was that the team was never truly comfortable with him as a player and made him uncomfortable doing the thing he’s paid to do.
And the sad thing is that the Yankees do this to a lot of players. They’re weird. There’s a self-conscious element to playing for the Yankees that some players thrive from and other players scuffle as a result of and yet other players aren’t impacted either way by it.
I think if the Yankees had just let Gray pitch, he’d have been fine. But they tried to tweak him, because they weren’t actually comfortable with him from the moment his contract went into their payroll and system and that screwed him up.
I genuinely blame the Yankees for this. And I am a Yankees fan.
Murphy NFLD
He and bauer an interview, which should still be on bauers channel. They were both in cincy then and he said the market its self was too much for him. You get scrutinized for every mistake, every missed pitch, you have people at the end of your starts asking y i sucked tonight. That was my biggest problem with the NYY. Those big sports marks in everything can really kill a players career. Montreal and Toronto are famous for that in hockey but any Canadian market is tough, so is NY, Det, Bos and Chi. There football and basketball markets that are that way to. Sonny basically said in never going to a big market again if i can help it. Im sure you can find this on Bauers YT channel, its he, sonny and 2 other guys asking them questions
Murphy NFLD
Gray said out of his own mouth that the media in NY was too much period. Find the video, i believe on bauers channel, they were both in cinci at this time there were 2 others interviewing them and thtas exactly what sonny said my G
GarryHarris
Sonny Gray pitched well in NY. The catcher didn’t have the skills to catch him.
Chase Petty looks like he’s can’t miss.
citizen
what a bad trade for both sides that was.
Gray was coming off a few good seasons for Oakland, Yankess had a top cant miss prospect in Dustin Fowler.
Blue Baron
@citizen: If Fowler was such a can’t miss prospect, how come he missed?
Hemlock
PRAISE THE SUN
Francys01
Great signing by the Cardinals. Welcome to the Cardinals.
Larry Brown's crank
oldest rotation in the majors
GarryHarris
It would’ve been a great rotation 5 years ago. The Cardinals need to acquire quality long relief. Oh yeah, new manager too.
VegasSDfan
Are you sure about that? Look at his previous three years numbers
belkiolle
Gibson also puts up strikeouts at a reasonable rate.
Graceffo, Roby, and McGreevy are all top 100 prospects on various lists. Liberatore is a recently graduated top 50 prospect and Thompson is no slouch. A bunch of guys no one has heard of? You must not follow prospects much.
That’s not even including Rom, Kloffenstein, and Robberse who are all well regarded by various scouts.
spudchukar
This signing only imcreases their chance with Manamoto. He wants to go to a winner.
It is why the Cards mader their moves early. To convince him his addition
will put their over the top. Still a few holes to fill.
BrianStrowman9
Mcgreevy can’t be on any top 100 lists anymore. That dude doesn’t look like a big league starter at all. Graceffo has quality stuff but he’ll be a RP if he doesn’t control it sooner rather than later. Drew Rom simply doesn’t have the stuff to be a big league pitcher. I think Liberatore is already a Rp in the cards mind. He’s done nothing to make them reconsider that. Big leaguers barrel him. The Cards were smart to add depth
Roby could be a real gem though. Not ready just yet.
iverbure
Lol
uvmfiji
They’re going all in for a .500 season. Go Cards Go!
Hemlock
HIPPY—
You asked 30 questions in 3 comments..
jade 2
You mean, Yamamoto? I dunno, the Cards are gonna lose some TV revenue and are already at $195ish so 30+ would put them pretty close to the tax. I don’t see it.
snakebyte32
I attended a couple late season AA games last fall. I think you will hear of Tekoah Roby by 2025 if not sooner.
cah011381
I think I had a seizure reading all that.
Pads Fans
I agree. He is a needed fit at the top of that weak Cardinals rotation and his deal is relatively short.
Dorothy_Mantooth
Not that it makes much of a difference but I assume the deal is 3/$70M with the $5M buyout on the 4th year option and not a straight 3/$75M deal?
Cardsfan21
I’m reading it’s an option for 27 which would be a three year plus one year option.
seth3120
I wanted Sonny Gray plus a solid number 2. Instead Gray and two high 30s inning eaters. Did we really upgrade? We lost Jordan Montgomery, Wainwright, and Flaherty. I like Grays larger body of work but Lynn was terrible and old and Gibson is old enough a bounce back season is unlikely. I expected a lot more. We got an above average starter getting up there in age and two inning eaters who give up a lot of runs. If Mikolas and Matz bounce back we have a chance but big if. Biggest positive is our division. I think we’ll score more runs than last year but our pitching could be almost if not just as brutal. At least Flaherty is young enough to bounce back. Wainwright was bad last year he got win 200 but he’d admit he wasn’t good. Hopefully there’s an upgrade there
Fever Pitch Guy
Good place for him.
Where is the link to the free agent competition entries? I want to see how I’m doing!
dvogt
He can’t carry this rotation by himself
unpaidobserver
Hmm the plan for Sonny Gray to carry the rotation by himself may not work then.
avenger65
unpaid: Gray, Mikolas, Gibson and hopefully Cease isn’t a bad start. If that’s the rotation (plus a fifth starter) I don’t see where Gray will have the burden of carrying the team by himself.
EndinStealth
Unless Matz gets traded the rotation is pretty much set. Cease doesn’t happen.
kremer
Can’t just add in cease!!! Fact is their rotation still Isn’t as good as it was on opening day last season. And we all see where that team ended up!
Blue Baron
@EndinStealth: How do you figure a stiff like Matz into any starting rotation?
EndinStealth
@Baron: Reality. In no world are they going to pay him 22 million to come out of the pen. Unless he is traded they will have him in the rotation.
stan lee the manly
I’m sorry, what? Their rotation is definitely improved from their 2023 opening day rotation. Switching Wainwright with anybody is a huge jump forward and Gray’s numbers play even better than Montgomery’s.
Lanidrac
Considering how poorly Flaherty and Woodford, ended up pitching last season (not to mention Wainwright, but he was on the IL on Opening Day), I’d say the current rotation certainly is better than that one at the very least, even if Lynn doesn’t rebound..
Mikolas and Matz return.
Gray > Montgomery
Gibson > Flaherty
Lynn >= Woodford/Wainwright
I’d still like to see them trade for a good, younger starter to go with them, but I can see them competing with these 5 (with youngsters like Thompson behind them) as long as they fix the bullpen.
Lanidrac
Matz was only bad in April and early May. He was pretty good for the rest of the season until he got hurt in August. He also has a decent track record from before he came to the Cardinals.
stymeedone
Its called justifying a paycheck. He may not hold the job, but his contract says its Matz’s to lose.
diggin4three
$22mil for who, Matz? Nope, IIRC, I think his deal was 4/44.
Blue Baron
@Lanidrac: You consider a 4.25 career ERA with 6.08 in 2017, 9.68 in 2020, and 5.25 in 2022 a decent track record?
Ma4170
Gray and montgomery are basically even, not much differentiation between them last three years. You would think lynn would bounce back some, so I’d agree there. Gibson, who knows how he’ll do. He just needs to provide some quality innings and he’d be an upgrade over flaherty.
EndinStealth
@Diggin yeah my bad. got my numbers mixed up. I still don’t see him in the pen with 11 million.
belkiolle
It’s better than it was Opening Day last year.
belkiolle
He has two years and 25M left on his deal.
Lanidrac
Yes, a career 4.25 ERA is indeed a decent track record.
I said before he came to the Cardinals, so you can’t include that 2022 mark, and the 2020 mark was a small sample size from the pandemic shortened season.
He’s also had a decent 4.21 ERA in 2019 and an ERA under 4.00 every other year (including 2023) of his career.
asdfgh
Rumors already of us offering him. He makes sense for Rays and Glasnow cutting salary but getting an MLB starter toss an OF or two or Yamamoto as now we can show we really want to win SP will always be in demand. This would be us selling high based off last 7 starts if anything too
jade 2
Gray has 439 IP over the last 3 years. What’s the Over/Under for next 3 as he ages? 400 – 420?
JoeBrady
Probably not. Over the past three years, only 2 pitchers in the age 34-36 age cohort have 400 IPs. Only 5 have 300 IPs.
ham77
@Fever, You should’ve gotten an email when you submitted your entries. I just refer back to that to see how bad I’m doing.
Fever Pitch Guy
ham – Yes, but don’t you want to know how you’re doing compared to everyone else?
I’ve run these types of competitions many times, it’s important to publish all entries immediately after the deadline to prove there’s no changes being made or late entries being added after the deadline.
Not saying there would be any funny stuff like that here, but it is kinda odd that all entries aren’t posted yet for public viewing. There shouldn’t be any work involved, it’s no different than March Madness brackets on all the major websites.
LordD99
It is odd they haven’t posted a permanent link. To me, it should have been live before any signings. It’s fun to follow even for those of us who didn’t play. I didn’t submit mine in time, so I’m spared the disappointment this year.
Fever Pitch Guy
Lord – Agreed! It closed 2 weeks ago.
I completely trust the MLBTR team, but transparency is so important for any kind of contest.
In the past some players have participated, Ottavino was one of them (see below link). I’d love to see the picks made by players.
mlbtraderumors.com/mlbtr-apps/free_agent_contest_l…
LordD99
I’d love to see where Adam projects he’ll sign this year!
Fever Pitch Guy
Lord – I was thinking the same thing!
Fever Pitch Guy
Lord – I don’t know if you noticed it in the link I posted, but Adam got only 4 correct last year … and one of the four was himself! Haha!
LordD99
No. I think it will be more of a challenge for him this year to pick a team!
Fenway 1
Same here, the email doesn’t show how I’m doing just what my guesses were.
PhanaticDuck26
what’s my email password, can you tell me? Thx
Paleobros
Duck,
It’s: 12345
Fever Pitch Guy
Duck – It’s seven asterisks, like this: *******
JoeBrady
I’m not sure how you non-accountants survived for so long. The first thing you do when you receive the notification is to copy your picks into Excel. That way you don’t have to search every time you get one wrong.
Or, in my case, every time someone signs for $30M and you didn’t even realize that they were a top-50 FA..
For Love of the Game
Hey, according to JoeBrady I got one thing right so far (copying my entry into Excel)! Too bad all my picks are zeroes so far…
Fever Pitch Guy
great – I’ve run March Madness contests on ESPN and CBS Sportsline many times, as soon as the entry deadline passed everyone’s picks were visible and the standings were updated in real time.
Not sure how Google Form works though, anybody have experience running contests with it?
Slow day at work
I started 1/1, now I’m 1/5
drasco036
As a Cubs fan, I hope Gray regresses back to a mid-rotation starter or worse.
Codeeg
lol yes hope other players play worse rather than your team plays better, that’s what you want.
drasco036
Congratulations on making a stupid comment.
Blue Baron
It’s impolite to congratulate yourself.
drasco036
Boom boom Ching
asdfgh
Spoken like a true cubs homer fan, remember you also didn’t win the division and still have championships than the cardinals. What’s your front office done so far. Expecting them to make another heyward like albatross deal they will regret lol. Cubs will be mid if best lol
drasco036
Ok so since everyone wants to be B hurt this morning…
I’m not bashing the Cardinals moves, except Contreras, that move made zero sense. You simply don’t replace a guy like Molina who is one of the best true catchers to ever play the game with a guy like Contreras who doesn’t have the intangibles of Molina. There are few catchers who are pitcher catchers, Molina, Gomes, Maldonado are a few. They get the most out of a pitching staff, they garner upmost confidence in their rotation mates. Contreras isn’t that guy. St Louis always got the most of their rotation due to Molina, good pitchers who would turn great seasons because of their trust in Yadi.
I said I hope Gray reverts back to a mid rotation starter because when he is on, he’s an Ace. He’s like Snell, some seasons he’s great! Other seasons he’s just good. No team wants to face an Ace when they are on. I’m sure as much as St Louis fans want to field a better team, the also don’t want Steele to continue pitching like an Ace.
Being from Nashville, I catch games in St. Louis often, I prefer their fan base to the Cubs. Cubs fan base, at least at Wrigley is awful. Fans in Busch typically know the game, enjoy the aspects of “small ball” know your team and you can have great conversations with small ribbing.
Typically, if the Cubs are not in the playoffs and St Louis is, I’ll want the Cardinals to win because I follow their team and know their players.
With all that said, I think Lunhow was of the orchestrator of the great Cardinal teams a decade ago and Mo rode his coattails so to speak. What Lunhow built in Houston is still paying dividends
Dad
I would agree with you. They should have traded Contreras and kept the better Catcher in Kizner. The veteran pitchers are a testament to the lack of trust in their Catcher and pitching coach who gets his tips off YouTube!
Dad
For the love of your team, don’t ever wish for Marcell Ozuna to be on it. He’s a clown and just not reliable and has an arm like a slow pitch softball pitcher. he’s almost single-handedly run the St. Louis Cardinals.
Dad
For the love of your team, don’t ever wish for Marcell Ozuna to be on it. He’s a clown and just not reliable and has an arm like a slow pitch softball pitcher. he’s almost single-handedly ruined the St. Louis Cardinals.
drasco036
It would have never happened but I thought Contreras would have best be utilized being a personal catcher for one guy to start the contract and primarily DH. Basically what the Cubs did with Amaya and Gomes but Contreras most likely wouldn’t have signed with St Louis if that was their plan… too much ego.
Dad
No to Ozuna, He is a nutcase and cannot stand to be useful!
SimbaHOF2019
Knizner wasnt that good a catcher. He could have been kept but Herrera is ready and will be much better. Minor league player of the year.
Looking at metrics Contreras was a better thrower and a great hitter. They couldnt find a trade for knizner. what does that tell you.
RobblyDobs
You mean the Knizner who has never had a positive WAR in his career? That Knizner?
SimbaHOF2019
cards have too many old guys that need to DH breathers to make contreras a primary DH.
revolver
Molina is not one of the best catchers to ever play the game.
Sid Bream Speed Demon
Cannot stand to be useful? Did you see his stats this season?
moneedstogo
Knizner is so bad he was DFA’d this year to give playing time to Herrera. So…..
Lanidrac
Ozuna had two decent years for the Cardinals. It’s not his fault the Cards got fleeced in the return for him.
Lanidrac
Knizner posted a very respectable 1.0 bWAR for a backup catcher this past season. He’s actually one of the better catchers on the free agent market given how terrible the selection is.
Still, I agree that Herrera is the future and non-tendering Knizner was the right move.
Lanidrac
Defensively, Molina certainly was one of the best, right up there with Bench and Pudge. Overall, there are a number of catchers ahead of him, but he also posted enough offense to still be a likely future Hall of Famer.
Lanidrac
Herrera is out of options, he has a lot more future potential, and Knizner has reached arbitration. That doesn’t mean Knizner was bad, though. I would’ve agreed after 2022, but Knizner improved quite a bit on both sides of the ball this past season.
cards81
Revolver…are you just wanting attention or do you just not know baseball…Molina was definitely one of the best catchers to play the game
RobblyDobs
Herrera actually was given another option. Amazingly the Cards FO made a good vaseball decision anyway. (Oh, and Herrera was Cards Minors player of the year)
Most Cards fans like Kiz, but he isnt very good, and the Cards need someone who will catch 80 games not 50-60
belkiolle
Mozeliak was building top 10 farm systems in St. Louis before Luhnow was ever hired.
belkiolle
Top 10 all time
Cardsfan21
If you are genuinely convinced that Molina is not one of the best catchers to ever play the game, will you please share some of what you are smoking with the rest of us?
BrianStrowman9
Molina was certainly great. If he’s not a HOF’er then you’re only going to have a HOF C every 25 years or something.
JoeBrady
hope other players play worse
========================
ROTFLMAO!
I’m not making fun, but I don’t get it. I went to my HS traditional Turkey Bowl game. The opponent actually held a 10-7 lead at one point, which is unusual, and I commented it was nice to see some competition, but I was also real glad we scored the next 35.
It’s okay to root against the other team,
BrianStrowman9
That’s kinda the point of sports. I want your players to do bad so my team wins.
sgtschultz
It’s exactly what we want
Captain-Judge99
Yeah as a Cubs fan. I wouldn’t worry much about Sonny Gray or the Cardinals.
asdfgh
Yeah considering you guys talk more smack and have less championships than us as well as what’s the cubs front office done. I do love when the public hates on the cardinals we always seem to strike gold when that happens.
Blue Baron
Us? What position did you play on all those championship teams?
Manfred Rob's Earth Band
Who has the last championship? The Cards or Cubs?
Blue Baron
@Manfred Rob’s Earth Band: Seven years vs 12 isn’t much to write home about.
Captain-Judge99
@asdfgh- OK, Mr. Delusional Deadbeat, let’s see if the Cardinals strike gold this year? Thank you so much for the laugh though. Please keep ‘em coming. Lol. Cheers!
cards81
Judge99…ok keyboard tough guy…people like you crack me up…hiding behind a computer making tough guy comments
belkiolle
Who blew a 10 year dynasty window with only one WS championship thanks to half the Indians starting rotation being out?
Captain-Judge99
@cards81- glad your amused, you can go back to sleep behind your computer now, you fagazi!
Blue Baron
If you’re a Cubs fan, why does your username cry out Yankees fanboy?
Captain-Judge99
You can’t have a favorite AL Team and a favorite NL Team, also? You make the rules now? Go worry about your precious Mets this year. Good luck with that. Lol.
Blue Baron
Says the guy who worships a juiced-up stiff who doesn’t help the Yankees win anything.
Captain-Judge99
It must be nice to be a fan of a team that’s owner says his won’t be going for it in 2024? I love the Mets chances of landing Soto in 2025, if he reaches free agency though($600 million)
cah011381
No, you can have one favorite team. If you have more than one you aren’t a very good fan of either. I have one favorite team and hate everyone else.
Blue Baron
Judge is more roided up than Bonds and Clemens were.
And by keeping Cashman and Boone, the Yankees obviously aren’t going for it either with that broken-down team.
Slow day at work
@Captain-Judge99 If you had a Cubs-Yankees World Series, who would you root for? That’s your favorite team
I’m a Braves fan, but also follow and cheer for the Angels because I’m in SoCal. I wouldn’t call myself an Angels fan, but if they are playing anyone else beside my Braves, I want them to win.
Captain-Judge99
That’s hogwash. In football I have a favorite NFC & a favorite AFC team. That’s fine. If they are playing in a SuperBowl. I would root for 1 of those teams. Probably the one team that hasn’t won a championship for the longest. I’m ok with that. No loss for me.
Captain-Judge99
Are you sure you aren’t talking about Alonso? Let’s stop pretending that Alonso is better then Judge now. Truth be told, you sound salty? Maybe you are really Steve Cohen’s brother? Lol.
Captain-Judge99
Who do you think I would root for? I’m OK, with either team winning in 7 games truthfully. The Yankees haven’t won a World Series since 2009, so I would go with them.
Blue Baron
@Captain-Judge99: Where did I mention Alonso?
Slow day at work
If you don’t care who wins, then you have no favorite. You have 2 teams you kinda like. And there is nothing wrong with that
JPR
Good for you. I. on the other hand, can enjoy baseball any way I please, even without your approval..
deeds
Thank god! Until this comment, I was worried. You are so wise!
MLB Top 100 Commenter
As a Cubs fan, I am fine with Gray doing ok, because Gibson and Lynn will suck so much even I couldn’t wish three clunkers on the dirty birds. This signing was reasonable.
stymeedone
Any team that hasn’t done anything, yet, is ahead of where the Cards are after doling out for Gibson and Lynn. Signing Gray gets them halfway out of the hole they dug with those signings.
Eatdust666
Which would still let him do better than his last year with the Yankees! *shudders*
CardsFan57
This would be great if it pans out. He’s the one I wanted them to sign
diggin4three
I’m happy Mo & Co stood by their words and signed 3 starters, including Gray, we all should be.. even crazier, all 3 deals will be done prior to December 1st. I wonder, who would’ve ever guessed that?
Dotnet22
Don’t stop there. Trade for another one. Bieber, Cease, Glasnow, etc.
CardsFan57
I don’t want to see a trade unless some team is willing to take prospects. The offense wasn’t good last year. They can’t afford to subtract from it. The spare parts like Carlson, O’Neill, and Burleson won’t bring back a proven starter.
Blue Baron
Who on the Cardinals would bring back a proven starter? Maybe Donovan and Nootbaar together.
cards81
Yea Donovan, Hence, Scott, Roby…Cardinals have plenty to trade
Blue Baron
Seems to me that Donovan and Nootbaar are the most attractive for trading. The others aren’t that great.
cards81
Donovan can be the center piece but Hence is a top 50 prospect, in which I’m sure he will rise in the rankings, Scott looks great for a future CF…Roby came over on the Monty trade…those are all good prospects
ih8tepaperstraws
Scott is going to suck. His only skill is speed. He made the futures game as a gimic and he played the part. Scott is just newest Nootbaar, Carlson, Edman, Piscotty, Hazelbaker, and on and on and on, just with more speed.
cards81
Lol I guess you can say that…but Scott is still a good prospect…I could agree but I think different. It really doesn’t matter because honestly neither me nor you know if he will be worth anything…but as of right now he is a good prospect…but hey thanks for your opinion…but did you say Nootbar…ok I’ll take another Nootbar
diggin4three
Looks to me like their plans are probably to trade for some bullpen help, which is much more realistic, given the club’s expendable asset depth and it’s value.
diggin4three
I will be extremely surprised if Mo & Co decides to spend more money on the starting rotation. I don’t think anyone should expect it, or be upset when it doesn’t happen. $40ish million doesn’t stretch too far for a 2024 salary.
cah011381
Following what they’ve been doing which is the “guys we’ve always liked” road, I’m expecting someone like Kimbrel or Joe Kelly for the bullpen.
bighiggy
Well if it’s to bring in Glasnow or a cease or bieber I say clear up some extra players. Hate to see edman go, but him or Donovan would have to be included. Throw in a liberatore or a Thompson, an oneil or carlson and a mcgreevy or graceffo. The other team is going to want something good and we have that to spare. I say go for it. Most of the team isn’t getting any younger. Or try your hardest to sign snell or Yamamoto or Montgomery and use your trade pieces for BP arms
RobblyDobs
You’d have to be nuts to give the Rays anything much for a pitcher with little surplus value if he stays healthy – and thats a big ‘if’.
Donovan is likely worth 10-15 WAR over 5 controllable years. He’s a Cease trade piece, not Glasnow. Glasnow’s a salary dump.
mp2891
Salary dump does not equal cheap or free, and Glas certainly has surplus value. Just saying….
wvsteve
Mo had a plan all along
stymeedone
It was a plan.
But was it a good plan? I’m not convinced.
wvsteve
They are in position to make a trade now
fathead0507
Braves dodged bullet
Idosteroids
I had a feeling that’d be the case…farm system is too light…AA wants to keep those picks.
Hemlock
He is 34 with an injury history. While he is not “old”, the Braves don’t need another “getting older, frequently injured” types of pitchers. I’m glad he might sign somewhere else.
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
Braves now landing Snell. Mariners reel in Yamamoto. Dodgers trade for Burnes.
Longtimecoming
Mariners sign Snell, Padres sign Yam and I agree, a Dodger trade for Burnes seems to make a lot of sense. But then again, a Padres trade for Burnes make sense too. A lot of trade history there.
Blue Baron
Unless the Mets, Red Sox, or Yankees sign Yamamoto. The Mets and Yankees are also strong possibilities for Montgomery.
deeds
You would be praising the braves had they signed him.
Joel P
The Braves could have used Gray last year. The Phillies having 2 aces has been the difference in the postseason the last 2 years.
Dodged a bullet lol. Keep telling yourself that.
steelerbravenation
Wonder what direction the Braves go in now ? Either
Nola or Gray were the 2 SP I wanted them to get thru FA.
Now do they make a run @ Montgomery or trade for Burnes or Glasnow.
Poolhalljunkies
Id stay away from glasnow..in 8 years he has only made it past 100 ip 2 times..RISKY..burnes to st louis would be fascinating though
JerseyShoreScore
Yup, Glasnow’s career high in innings pitched is 120. I wonder despite his age, does he have an innings cap or limitation on him even if he stays healthy…
alwaysgo4two
He’s 100% healthy now. Has some of the best stuff in MLB. No pitcher is guaranteed to stay healthy. Cole is an exception.
baseballpun
Glasnow to STL arguably makes even more sense now. They just signed 3 guys who *should* give you a ton of innings. Roll the dice on Glasnow’s health next year. If he’s hurt, you have coverage, if he’s healthy, you have a legit TOR arm.
SimbaHOF2019
I wish. Just dont think the will expand the payroll for him now that they spent 25 mil on gray.
baseballpun
If they can move a couple guys either as part of a Glasnow trade or in other smaller side-deals, they’d only be looking at adding another $10-15m to the payroll.
I certainly share your pessimism, though.
BrianStrowman9
I’d feel pretty confident saying that the Cards are out on Glasnow.
Matz is moveable on his contract but Mikolas is underwater. Matz is the rotation’s only left also. Can’t see anyone taking Mikolas at that price.
baseballpun
Neither Matz nor Mikolas would be part of a trade with TB. O’Niell and Carlson could be moved (Carlson maybe to TB, probably not O’Niell).
Mikolas isn’t going anywhere, agreed. I don’t think Matz is either, but he could be moved to the pen. Or, who knows, teams that miss out on pitching might take his contract. The Cards were able to trade Mike Leake, after all.
BrianStrowman9
Yeah, not with TB. I was talking about moving them elsewhere to clear the rotation spot & payroll.
BrianStrowman9
Leake +$17MM. Mikolas is a big league caliber back end arm. If they want to eat serious cash—he can go.
He’s owed about 2/33. I think some team would take him for half that pretty quickly. Don’t see the Cards doing that though.
cah011381
I just hate to give up much for a guy with one year left. I don’t know if this Cardinals team is good enough yet to take a chance on a rental player.
baseballpun
It would be interesting to see what it would take. At an expected $25m it’s not like there’s a lot of surplus value there, if any.
Joel P
Glasnow isn’t happening
A deal involving Matz and Manoah would be fun.
rundmc1981
ATL had injury issues with starting pitching the last 2 years, but Glasnow would change that – said no one, ever.
C Yards Jeff
I feel ya but from an Orioles fan perspective. Gotta sinking feeling GM Elias under Owner Angelos’s plan is gonna go after another vet innings eater SP with minimal injury history route
BrianStrowman9
@jeff
I’m still betting on the trade route. There’s good prospects with nowhere to play here. Joey Ortiz should be a starting ML infielder but has no chance here. Either him or Westburg should be part of a trade package.
Joel P
Hjerstad for Gilbert
BrianStrowman9
Price on Gilbert will be higher. But from the O’s perspective, that’s a yes.
Joel P
Add an infielder to the deal
That’s what makes sense. The Orioles and Mariners are great trade partners.
iml12
Orioles should be all over Glasnow. High risk with major upside. It won’t cost them major prospect capital either.
C Yards Jeff
Strow and iml12, thanks for “talking me off the ledge”. I gotta think positive, baby!
BrianStrowman9
I think the Rays preference is to not send Glasnow to the team that edged them out for the division title. I’d imagine TB would want a significant overpay to even consider that.
fathead0507
If they were going 6/162 for Nola as reported at $25mill yr then 8/200 for a young Yamamoto is in the realm
LordD99
I think Yamamoto is going to blow away all dollar projections with the Dodgers, Mets, Yankees, Red Sox and Giants all seemingly obsessed with him. He should be able to pick his market either way with equivalent financial offers. That’s why I’m guessing a West Coast team, unless Cohen does Cohen things and outbids the market by 50%.
eatonculo
That’s what I thought too. St. Louis probably preferred Yamamoto to everyone else but they’re just never going to win a bidding war with that many teams involved.
stymeedone
Will Yamamoto need a six man rotation to stay healthy? Will he be on an innings limit due to the heavier work load? Will his arm hold up to the change, or will he be like Ohtani and need “some type” of TJ surgury rather quickly?
BrianStrowman9
@stymee
He’s pitched 193,171, and 168 innings. Are you asking that because he’s Japanese? More innings than Blake Snell has thrown in 3 seasons by a wide margin.
Slow day at work
I didn’t want Nola for 6 years. I call BS on the report that the Braves offer was 6/162 unless it was 4/120 plus 2 option years for 21M each.
The only reason I wanted Gray was because he would be cheaper and not require a long commitment
BraveO's
If AA can get Yamamoto and Duvall I feel like the Braves are set. I personally didn’t want Gray, or any of the other FA SP available!
deweybelongsinthehall
Duvall is in my view a true bargain. Obviously, his streakiness and injury history are for all to see. During his limited time in Boston, he just seems like a Steve Pearce type who will shine when it matters most. I’m still hoping the Sox trade multiple outfielders and then re-sign Duvall.
thecrocusesareinbloom
Duvall is the most surefire luxury signing I can think of for any team that’s a legitimate contender. If you’ve got the funds, some depth, and a spot on the roster, he’s absolutely worth shelling out for. The fact that he’s constantly injured keeps his counting stats low-ish, too, which I think makes his market price a good bargain for the kind of output you get when he’s healthy. There were stretches last year where it seemed like he could breathe on a ball and it would leave the yard.
steelerbravenation
I don’t think we get Yamamoto but I wonder if a Shene Bieber for Marcel Ozuna works for Cleveland.
They are missing a big bat & Ozuna had a great year
And he would be playing with motivation of another contract or the very least his option to be picked up.
windmill_noise_causes_cancer
Uh, no, the Guardians are not doing that.
JaysnCards
Agree it wont get done, at least not straight up
cah011381
Hahahahaha, it’s gonna take a whole lot more than Ozuna. You probably have to pay someone to take him.
Slow day at work
Maybe Ozuna and 10M-15M would work
cah011381
And an extra prospect on top of anyone else included in the trade.
Bounty Hunters IA
Gross. Mistake for Sonny and his career. No World Series for him
BrianStrowman9
About as likely as getting one in Minnesota.
Eatdust666
Also as likely as getting one with the Yankees, although he obviously would never go back. My point is that even though they win more games than they lose despite their inefficiencies, they are not going to win number 28 anytime soon, along with getting their 41st AL pennant, but of course I’d love to be wrong about it. Unlike Brian Cashman and some other Yankee fans, I am not blaming the Astros for it, despite what I think about them.
Idosteroids
And im sure he will use stacks of $100 bills to wipe away those tears.
Vince Coleman'sTarpMachine
From an Iowa with zero professional teams and two lousy college teams both busted for gambling. Pete rose must love corn haha
808sAndMetsHeartbreaks
What are the Cardinals cooking with this rotation
n2thecards
probably Bob Evans or Cracker Barrel! haha
thecrocusesareinbloom
Cardinals are a great fit for Gray—he’s always performed better for mid-market teams. A lot of my friends in Boston were clamoring for a signing but I have ghostly remembrances of how bad he was with the Yankees.
deweybelongsinthehall
That was years ago. He’s learned and seems to have adjusted nicely
steelerbravenation
He was bad with the Yankees because their pitching philosophy and what they wanted him to throw when they wanted him to throw it didn’t fit his strengths.
LordD99
@steelerbravenation, some of that is true. Their pitching coach at the time —Larry Rothschild, IIRC—did try to make some additions to his pitching arsenal that didn’t work, but they also let him go back to what he was doing with the A’s, and he still wasn’t succeeding. He also admitted that he let the NY experience get in his head. Those last two points get left out of the revisionism attempts. Gray used to have a deer-in-the-headlights look in his eyes whenever he was interviewed with the Yankees. The truth is somewhere between the two narratives.
I would have been fine if Sonny got a second chance in NY under their current pitching coach Matt Blake, but not at the expense he’ll cost. Too risky for both sides. The Cards seem like a good fit, assuming Heyman is to be trusted here!
Captain-Judge99
LordD99- please stop you are killing me right now, truthfully!!! Lolololololol!!! Sonny-back-in-NY? Still laughing. Hope all is well. Heyman is trusted again now? Be careful-Arson Judge.
steelerbravenation
When they got him & he was successful then they try to change things would effect anybody’s confidence. Especially with the NY media jumping down his throat.
Definitely put a bad taste in his mouth & don’t think he would ever want to return to NY or any big market for that matter.
He is definitely a better pitcher than he showed in NY. I really don’t know how Yankee fans tolerate Cashman at this point.
LordD99
CaptainJudge, there was never a chance it would happen, but Cashman is stubborn. Remember, he brought back Javier Vazquez! As for Heyman, whenever free agents are involved, I always wait for the final announcement.
RobM
Yeah, I’d only have been fine giving Sonny a second act if it was a mid-season pickup this year when both sides could have evaluated each other. No way the Yankees, or any major market team, could commit to a $75 million deal not knowing how Sonny would react. Worked out well for him. Hope he continues to pitch well in St. Louis.
Joeyg2033
Cardinals a great spot for him. No pressure and will never get booed…
eatonculo
Oh, he has a very good chance to get booed in St. Louis. Aside from pulling off a Garry Templeton, Cardinals fans really hate it when high-paid free agents don’t perform to the level of their contract. St. Louis hated players like Tino Martinez and Dexter Fowler for that reason. They were both booed a lot.
ih8tepaperstraws
Nobody booed Fowler. His contract might have been an over pay and a knee jerk reaction to Heyward leaving, but he was still the best player on the team for the two years he was here.
ih8tepaperstraws
I don’t think he goes in as a Cardinal. He won an MVP in Saint Louis but his best number still happened in Arizona. He has several MVP caliber seasons in the dessert.
JoeBrady
It is entirely possible that Gray did better after he left for the same reason Monty did better after he left.
pogo
None of their signings were sexy. But the Cardinals did well to get some SP before it all goes crazy with the dollars. Smart moves.
Simm
Idk we haven’t seen what gray signed for and the other two seemed to be pretty pricey for their production.
They did do a good job of getting pitchers before they all ran out.
This one belongs to the Reds
Yep, they did what other teams did not and to tgis point not insane money.
baseballpun
Lynn and Gibson may be somewhat overpaid but there’s no such thing as a bad one year deal.
stymeedone
After last year, can Lynn still be referred to as a pitcher?
rememberthecoop
Sonny Gray is a really good starting pitcher. As a Cubs fan, I’m kind of envious of the way the Cards went about fixing their rotation. You may not like the first two guys they signed, but as 4th/5th options, they’re acceptable. Meanwhile, the Cardinals did what they said they would do: they signed 3 pitchers. How many front offices tell you something that detailed and then go out and do it right away?
Captain-Judge99
@coop- I love my Cubs to. I wouldn’t really worry about Sonny Gray truthfully, you ever watch him pitch in NY? Lolololololol!!!
Ol’ Uncle Charlie
Cards needed a 1, a 3 and a 5.
In typical Cardinal fashion they did less than that by getting a 1.5 and two 4.5s.
That doesn’t get it done for the team’s needs.
They’ll need to pull a trade for Cease to make this offseason a success, although I don’t want to look at what we’d have to give up to get Cease.
CardsFan57
You don’t think the guy who finished 2nd in CY voting is a number one. Do you believe there is only one number one per league?
diggin4three
He’s obviously going to be projected as the #1 for StL in 2024, and rightfully so. Compared to 2023’s rotation, he’s a serious upgrade. Mo & Co could not make the money it had available stretch far enough to pay for 3 serious upgrades in today’s market. I’m just happy our club stepped up and is walking away with one of the higher profile names available at a position that was clearly the team’s weakness, even prior to the 2023 season.
snakebyte32
The Cardinals must be getting ready to open a retirement complex in Ballpark Village and are intending to have some ready made customers from their starting rotation after 24 season is over…
Eovaldismemes
if you think 34 is old thats insane
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
I would give up probably a kidney and half a lung to be 34 again.
cpdpoet
ISOB…as a healthy genX guy……gotta nix the “probably” part.
Where do I sign?
JoeBrady
to be 34 again.
======================
I like being old. No more worrying about raising the family, paying off the house, college tuition, retirement savings.
I wake up in the morning with nothing to do, and by the end of the day, I am only half through.
Longtimecoming
Joe – I’m close to that point that you described but I have to add, I can’t bend my elbow today because of too many hours swinging a leaf blower yesterday so getting old has its down points too!
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
Joe…I’m 47, don’t have kids, don’t have a house payment, bachelor-type, but would like to be 34 again just to have a chance at different life decisions & explore avenues not taken, but I understand where you’re coming from. I’m just at an awkward age I guess haha.
Longtimecoming
Ig, at 47 you are prime to make any corrective steps you desire with plenty of time left in the tank to see the results. If you feel changes are best, make a plan and work toward that path. I’m sure all of us have a little bit of “good have done that differently” in our history. Better to fix at 47 than 57. Good luck.
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
@Longtime Really appreciate the encouraging comment…on paper 47 looks like a huge number that may as well signify the good times have passed me by but I don’t necessarily ‘feel’ 47 yo internally…(47 is the new 32!!) haha but it’s also looking at where my friends are in their lives & having very elderly parents & realizing wow time is marching along! Anyways sorry for off-topic mid-life crisis ordeal guys…
cpdpoet
ISOB you are part of a very large fraternity, don’t worry….
I was both of my parents primary caretakers (am the youngest of 5), they were part of the greatest generation. We all have those “looking around and in the mirror” moments!
southi
At 34 I was in the best shape of my life. I worked out 4 days a week and ran 5k 4 days a week. I had my abs and my 5k times were under 22 minutes (up from under 20 in my early 20s).
But life doesn’t stand still seasons change.
Been blessed to make it almost to 60 so I can’t complain. My knowledge of how to do things is there, but my body can no longer execute the things it used to consistently and takes MUCH longer to recover.
Such is the way of life.
The wear and tear on professional athletes builds up. For some by age 34 they’ve been more broken than can easily be repaired or replaced.
JoeBrady
I remember a radio talk show a long time ago. The caller was complaining about his career, and the host asked about going back to school at night to get his degree.
The caller responded by saying it would take ten years and he’d be 37 by the time he graduated. The astute host then asked him how old he’d be in ten years if he didn’t go back to school.
cpdpoet
JB, thanks for that laugh!
Am just getting up for a new job interview, that story will help me through the morning!
Longtimecoming
CP – good luck
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
Good luck cpd
snakebyte32
It is older now than it was when PED’s were part of the game. It was a joke and exaggeration of course but having to point that out and means it wasn’t as funny as intended. For the record a retirement villa in Ballpark Village is actually a good idea especially if they include a season ticket package. I would head there in my declining years for a short stay until they fleeced me of every dime I had ever saved and could no longer afford it…
RunDMC
34, plus adding to 36 y/o: Lynn/Gibson, and Miles Mikolas (35 y/o) & Matz (32 y/o).
Their rotational average age is 34.6 – (rounded) is 35 y/o.
Longtimecoming
Run – I can’t say thst I like relying on these particular 5 (but not a Cardinal fan so there is that) but really, the Cardinals have at least rounded out a viable 5 man rotation which almost every other team can’t say right now.
RunDMC
You’re right, but we’re not even at the Winter Meetings and while they just set their rotation, they possibly also took themselves out of the running of legitimate upgrades, as well. Considering the rotation added 2 guys that were some of the most hit in 2023 (Lynn, Gibson), could they have done better if they waited it out?
Longtimecoming
Could they have done better – without know what they know, I can’t answer that. They know their budget. They likely have some agent feedback. They know their window – these contracts are 1, 1 and 3 so a lot of 2014 flexibility here.
Are there better SP’s in FA – oh definitely. Are these the guys I hoped my team signed – oh NO.
The next 5-10 days should see a domino fall that triggers an avalanche and maybe, Cards felt like this was a conservative safe bet to be viable and leave options for 24 in play.
Like investing and insurance – risk tolerance is the answer.
I don’t see us as disagreeing but maybe looking at the situation differently.
msqboxer
Now they just need 3 more #5 starters to handle the 5-7th innings and their golden!
Dotnet22
A CY runner up is a bad pitcher? Also, it’s “they’re”.
spudchukar
Still believe the Red Birds are moving to a 6-man rotation.
Jon M
A 4.90 ERA is bad, but it isn’t *brutal*.
swagsuperawesomeepiccoolman123
I’m not believing this until someone other than John Heyman says it’s true…. this is giving me some arson judge vibes
kodion
Heyman’s job: Feeding the rumor fire. He IS prolific …if rarely insightful. Anecdotally, I would say he’d be under the Mendosa Line in terms of accuracy.
swagsuperawesomeepiccoolman123
welp, looks like ken is confirming it. i guess it’s true
Didlz
lol arson judge feeding the fire you guys rule
Unclemike1525
Well they signed 2 35 year olds and a 34 year old. Can’t say they lack experience.
JoeBrady
So is Matz, at 32.5 years old, the “kid”?
JaysnCards
Good signing as long as it isn’t for more than 3 or 4 years. As others have said we still need another solid starter to add to the rotation.
I sure wouldn’t mind seeing Stroman in a Cards jersey
eatonculo
I agree, but I don’t think a possible “fourth” new starter comes through free agency. They still need to get rid of a few players.
Besides, as much as Stroman’s pitching style has always fit the Cardinals, I’ve always felt Mo and Co. were afraid of Stroman’s personality. He doesn’t seem boring enough for the Cardinals.
JaysnCards
Yes I think you are bang on with that. Stroman would be great but maybe a little too much excitement for Cards management
Charlie'sSinging
They don’t have the money for Stroman. A trade is the only way they can get another decent starter now.
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
Congrats to Cards fans…Gray is a bulldog & a true professional. He will do you proud. Can’t believe Mo worked so fast, on a mission! Now if he would jettison Marmol & possibly make a trade with the M’s for Donovan.
spudchukar
Don’t trade Donovan. He is too valuable.
TradeAcuna
Right on par with the Braves since AA took over. All talk, no action with rotation pieces.
rundmc1981
They don’t talk, you and everyone else does. And there’s been less than a half dozen rotation options signed this early. He’s acquired 5 possible pen pieces not including Lopez, who could be both rotation/pen. AA likes to eat his sides before his entree. Let him eat.
This one belongs to the Reds
Congrats, Cards. You pulled off what you needed to. I’m envious.
octavian8
Let’s see how this plays out. I wanted Gray to sign with Cincy too but I would be leery of 3 yrs for a total of $75M. No one knows but maybe a trade acquisition will be better?
baseballpun
Ownership’s self-imposed restraints notwithstanding, the $25/year is not a big deal when it’s only a three year deal. I think everyone was expecting 4 years and there was always the fear that it would go to 5 to get over the top. This is a good contract.
iml12
Don’t the cardinals lose all those compensation picks if they go over the luxury tax? I could be wrong. Drawing 3 million fans a year, there shouldn’t be many payroll limitations.
This one belongs to the Reds
With a 52M payroll so far and less obligations in future years outside Greene, it would have been totally doable.
earmbrister
Gray was never a fit for the Reds. They are looking for a vet on a one year prove it deal or end of career deal. Or a long reliever/spot starter type. Cincy has a full rotation with a few guys that project to have a ceiling that approximates Gray’s. And they have a couple of prospects PLUS Lowder that will be banging on the door shortly.
The Reds have built their rotation the correct way: acquiring starting pitching thru trades and the draft. The best way a small market team can compete.
Wire to wire 2024
As a reds fan I’m jeaous, but I hope it works out for y’all
good vibes only
Good signing. Should be pretty competitive in the central as-is but interested to see if there are more moves in store.
baseballpun
This is good. Probably means they are out on Yammamoto but they were never realistically in on him.
They should make a run at Glasnow. They have enough innings in the rotation that they can risk his injury history and go for the high upside.
Badtakesonly
Noice
FrontOfficeStan
Initially happy with the signing, but slightly disappointed we won’t have moto. Also hesitant to be too happy without knowing the terms. Decent rotation.
JoeBrady
Decent rotation.
===================
Therein lies the problem, imo. It is a $72M+ rotation. It feels like it should be more than decent.
BrianStrowman9
It’s a short term expensive rotation though. FF 2 years and that rotation payroll is pretty clean. (They better develop starters before then)
Is it the worst rotation per $ spent right now though? Excluding the Nats because Stras is done. Him and Corbin would easily make that rotation the worst per $.
FrontOfficeStan
Well, it’s a big improvement from last season.
desertdawg
Does this signing mean that St. Louis has found their three starters to fill out thier rotation for 2024. Or do the Cardinals try and make another deal for Cease or Glasnow,.
eznod
I’m hoping for one more SOLID starting pitcher.
mikey48
Please trade for Bieber.
KamKid
That’s an interesting looking rotation. The ball is going to be in play a lot. In theory, it works as long as the defense holds up their end of the bargain and the couple of guys who get hit in the air can keep it off barrels often enough.
Mrivers
It’s also, as the article states, an aged rotation.
Pretty much win now.
But makes sense with players like Goldschmidt and Arenado around.
All in all, give Cardinals a B- or so. Like Gray, but would have passed on Lynn for a younger SP in FA or trade, as they do have pieces.
VonPurpleHayes
The Cards are assembling the all-geriatric rotation. They can’t pitch night games because that’s after their bedtime. They won’t start 4pm EST games because that’s when they watch their stories on TV. No loud music in the clubhouse. Stay off their lawn.
Eovaldismemes
you act like gray is 37 or something
VonPurpleHayes
It’s just a joke, but it’s not aimed at Gray. It’s more the fact that the average age of the Cards’ current rotation is 35, which would be fine if they were win-now WS contenders, but they are not.
Wagner>Cobb
Unless they make a big trade later, they clearly valued the prospects they already had, plus the one’s they brought in at the deadline.
VonPurpleHayes
I think it was smart keeping the prospects, but I still think they should’ve traded Goldy. Maybe it’s still in the cards. Pun intended.
Wagner>Cobb
Traded him last season?
I get that point of view, but I don’t think there’s anyone on the team or available that they could realistically get to replace his bat in this offense. If the plan was/is to compete, they needed to keep him. He and Arenado are still the best options to carry the offense if and until Gorman and Walker prove they can hit at an elite level with any consistency.
VonPurpleHayes
I guess that’s my point: I don’t see them as a legitimate contender. Trading Goldy for the right pieces puts them back in there next year. Hell, trade Goldy and sign Hoskins to add some pop.
RunDMC
@Wagner>Cobb — Outside the box idea – but what if they traded Goldy for some prospects, then signed Rhys Hoskins on a short-term (high AAV) or pillow contract? He’s been heavily connected to CHC, so you’ll strike first at your opponent and reload by getting younger.
Wagner>Cobb
I don’t think Hoskins is good enough to replace Goldy, especially after a missed season.
Career Numbers:
BA: Goldy .293/Hoskins .242
OBP: Goldy .388/Hoskins .353
SLG: Goldy .519/Hoskins .492
OPS: Goldy .907/Hoskins .846
OPS+: Goldy 143/Hoskins 125
Yeah, you save money, but based on their career numbers you will likely get what you pay for, and that doesn’t look like a good thing in this instance.
VonPurpleHayes
Oh don’t misunderstand, Hoskins would be a downgrade. I’m not trying to compare the two. I’m simply saying the Cards only have 1 year of Goldy left. Trade him now for controllable pieces. Sign Hoskins to help fill the offensive void. Compete in 25 without fully giving up on 24.
RunDMC
Sure, but what you also need to take into account is if 2023 for Goldy was an anomaly in his age-35 season, or a new standard, and not his MVP (age-34) season in ’22. Do you really think Goldy can continue to put those numbers at 36? Also, like Bellinger with CHC, there always seems like there’s a ridiculous pillow contract bargain out there, and I wouldn’t be surprised to see Hoskins be that deal.
Joel P
You sound like a hater. Get a life.
VonPurpleHayes
No one here said anything hateful.
BrianStrowman9
With the contract—I don’t think the return for Goldy is all that impressive. You might save a little bit of cash on Hoskins but you’ll likely get an inferior player. Goldy is still an excellent 1B defensively even if he isn’t an MVP with the bat anymore.
Hoskins plays an ugly 1B. I don’t think mid tier prospects are worth the downgrade & clubhouse shake up.
VonPurpleHayes
It’s more the fact that you’re losing Goldy anyway. You can trade him and sign him in Free Agency next year. Hoskins can be a stopgap. Again, this is all with the assumption that the Cards are going all in in 24. If they’re going all in and planning on making big moves, then obviously you want to keep Goldy.
Joel P
Goldschmidt isn’t going to be dealt at this point. They want him to retire with the team and go into the HOF as a Cardinal.
BrianStrowman9
Yeah I just don’t see the value in dealing Goldy after signing Gray. That was an argument that I could understand before that. But you don’t sign a 34 year old SP to punt on his first season.
I don’t believe he’s ever been QO’d so you can recoup a pick at years end or maybe make a deadline move if this thing blows up.
JoeBrady
They should’ve traded both Goldie and Arenado last trade deadline.
Wagner>Cobb
Why? They are well set up to contend for the division and have a puncher’s chance in the playoffs? This is how they’ve operated for 10+ years and it’s been very successful. They are virtually always competitive.
Joel P
You might have forgot but the Cardinals were playing the Phillies in the playoffs in 2022. And if it wasn’t for Helsley choking away the 9th the series would have been entirely different.
Did you forget that Philly fan?
Wagner>Cobb
Are you calling me a Philly fan?
Joel P
Does that makes sense to you?
I am calling the Philly fan a Philly fan. You know, the guy you are arguing with…….
Wagner>Cobb
This forum doesn’t use software that makes it simple to see who is talking to who, so I figured I would ask to clarify.
Joel P
Yes I understand that. He’s a Philly fan. Again the Cardinals played the Phillies in the 2022 playoffs not sure how he forgot that.
n2thecards
@vonpurplehayes, I got your joke and wasn’t offended in the least. I appreciate a little humor to counteract hateful or pie in the sky comments. it’s all about balance, which, ironically, will be a challenge for these Cardinals! lol
soxprospectsroverrated
“small market” Cardinals with another pricey veteran! Will the league give them 2 extra 3rd rounders this year or just one?
Dotnet22
Wahhhhhhhhh!!! Wahhhhhhhhh!! Wahhhhhhhhhh!!!
This is how you sound.
spudchukar
Exactly!
bighiggy
Cards don’t qualify any more, know your facts
Old York
Good signing. Very reliable starter.
Career FIP: 3.57
Career kwERA: 3.60
Career GBkwERA: 3.27
That’s what you should expect from him in terms of what he can control.
dshires4
If it’s truly the 3y/$75M I just saw in on X, it’s absolute robbery by the Cardinals.
Dotnet22
Was really hoping they wouldn’t go more than 3 yrs. Nice deal. Gotta pay up for the FA’s.
VonPurpleHayes
How is that robbery? That’s about the AAV that Nola just got.
dshires4
The years make it a robbery. People forget how foolish free agency tends to get.
VonPurpleHayes
Gray isn’t young. You’re paying him the money Nola will get at the same age. It’s not a robbery. It’s market price. I like the signing.
Slow day at work
Not a robbery, just a good deal for both sides.
Charlie'sSinging
It’s fair market value for Gray, who is 34.
Old York
@dshires4
Spotrac suggests his market value is $20.3M per year and he got $25M, so then the Cards paid more than market value for his services.
Charlie'sSinging
Not sure how cosistent they are. The Spotrac page I viewed projected him at $22 mil/yr. That’s a very rough estimate/projection, meaning no one would have likey been suprised to see him get $25/yr on a 3 yr deal.
Old York
@Charlie’sSinging
Interesting. I’m looking at Sonny Gray’s Spotrac page under the TAB called Market Value and it continues to show $20.3M per year as fair market value, so I’d say the Cards paid more than market value for his services.
J leathal86
Dang it wanted him on the orioles
SupremeZeus
Redbirds rotation has the potential to carry them to the 2019 World Series.
ih8tepaperstraws
A bonifided top of the rotation are is quite a stretch. He had a great year at 34, but come on.
Chibird3327
Nice Signing
Slightly overpaid
But nice nonetheless
stymeedone
All FA signings are overpays.
Yanks2
Gray is a solid pitcher. It’s only 3 years and 25m a year. Don’t really see how it’s an overpay
Saint Nick
I’m hearing the Braves were a close 7th but their offer topped out at 3 yrs/9M.
Poolhalljunkies
Wow ..25 mil per for him?..as a red sox fan i guess i just recall the younger version getting smoked nightly while he was with the yankees and the aav seems steep..
Eovaldismemes
Yankees pitching kept him low of his potential, once he left the bronx he pitched to a way better extent, this is around the projected aav as the top pitchers on the market, Gray being one of them
Vince Coleman'sTarpMachine
mo finally got his ace! anything is possible now. The high payroll is worth all the critics tears
Ol’ Uncle Charlie
Glad to have Gray, but to say he’s an ace is a stretch.
Wagner>Cobb
Kind of depends on the definition of an ace. I think he is, especially after a 2nd place Cy Young finish last year.
Charlie'sSinging
Probably rougly equal to last year’s payroll now, and they are done spending. Trade still possible (hopefully), but likely not for a high dollar value guy.
30 Parks
… good deal.
EJesus98
If their rotation stays relatively healthy, it’s not that bad of a rotation. Matz and Mikolas can be solid, everyone clowned on the Lynn and Gibson signings but they’re inning eaters at worst, and Sonny Gray just placed top 5 in Cy Young voting. Not a bad rotation whatsoever
Charlie'sSinging
I see one good starter and four guys who will likely have ERAs over 4.00. The one plus is the bullpen shouldn’t get as torn up early as they did last year.
stymeedone
Not the bullpen guys who pitch with a lead, anyways. If you get innings from all but Gray, they will be few leads to protect.
Charlie'sSinging
Ha. I understand that sentiment. Gibson pitches very well in 40-45% of his starts, so there’s that. With Mikolas, you just don’t know who you’re getting from year to year. It’s anyone’s guess who’s going to show up this year. Hoping Matz can keep that momentum he had before the injury, but he’s probably only going to be good for 5.-6 most starts either way. If we get anything out of Lynn, I’ll be happy. It wouldn’t be a complete shock if he can get back to serviceable…but it also wouldn’t be a shock to see him tank. A lot of question marks in this rotation for sure.
ih8tepaperstraws
Well Mo, you said you were going to get 3 starters and no one can call you a liar. The team isn’t any better than last year though, maybe worse still. 3rd place finish in the Central at best, and that will take some effort. Still missing an outfield with RBI production and major concerns with Goldschmidt gooing jnto the year. But you got some pieces that could be very tradable at the deadline.
Wagner>Cobb
The rotation has a higher floor and (depending on your point of view regarding Flaherty) a higher ceiling.
steelerbravenation
Don’t understand the overpay for Lynn & Gibson
If I was a Cards fan woulda much rather seen that money used for Montgomery & have had traded for another arm using the OF depth
But each is own I guess
Mikenmn
Good point. Maybe one of Gibson and Lynn pan out…maybe. As for Gray, $75M total guarantee for what’s likely to be three reasonably effective years is a pretty good signing. Interesting Gray didn’t see a 4th year out there, and took this.
iml12
Aav on 3 years might have been pretty close to what he was getting offered for 4? Projections all seemed to be around 4/80-4/85
Charlie'sSinging
I think he was most likely to sign with St. Louis or Atlanta, so if Atlanta didn’t offer it, that made it easy.
Charlie'sSinging
100% agree. Combine that money for a top flight guy then either make a trade or fill the back end of the rotation internally.
SimbaHOF2019
I get your point. Dont think Monty wants to come back. def wants texas again
steelerbravenation
The Braves offer Nola $27 a year but let Gray pass for $25 a year
I don’t understand
AA gotta be working on something big
I really am starting to believe the Braves will get Cease & sign him to an extension before ST
AL B DAMNED
Aaron Nola was a completely different deal!
Not only would the Braves add a nice Starting Pitcher, but the Phillies would lose a Starting Pitcher!
RunDMC
But they didn’t get him — and that’s even giving credence to those reported numbers. Nola wanted to be comfortable all along, while ATL really valued quality IP he provides. At that price point, I think they can still find that whether through trade or free agency, if they so choose — and possibly not lose a comp draft pick.
Slow day at work
I’m sure the Braves “reported” offer of 6/162 included option years with only 4 guaranteed. Gray is a little more perplexing. I’m sure the Braves would offer 3 years too
JackStrawb
The Braves own the NL East for the next 5 years.
They should be interested in elite arms, and only elite arms. If they guy won’t be in their postseason rotation or one of their 3-4 top bullpen arms throughout the postseason, they’re wasting their money and / or trade chips.
Viveleempireevil
He is a leaky vessel. As the Cards will find out to their dismay.
Charlie'sSinging
Just imagine if we would have combined the money we spent on Lynn and Gibson on one more top flight guy and then filled the back of the rotation with an internal competition. We’d actually be a playoff team with a chance to win a round or two! Good signing, but they messed up on the money given out on the first two. Unless they manage a trade for another top tier guy during the offseason, we’re well short of where we need to be.
orange2001
Talk about an overpay. Can’t wait to see what Ohtani gets…
Ball game
Baffles me how Gibson and Lynn can still pull in 10 million.
Eatdust666
It is definitely ridiculous that they still can for sure, but every year there are multiple teams that are desperate for starting pitching, just like there are multiple teams every year that are desperate for relief pitching. There is your explanation to something that should no longer happen.
Charlie'sSinging
Ohtani has long been projected at north of $40mil/yr on a long term deal. I don’t think this changes that at all.
Yanks2
Ohtani may be the greatest baseball player ever once his career is over. He’s better than Trout and Soto put together. No amount of money you pay Ohtani will ever be too much
Anthony maresca
You’re kidding right? Trout in his prime runs circles around Ohtani its not even close.
Yanks2
Trout hasn’t and never will pitch. Ohtani has the chance to be in the discussion of Cy Young, MVP, Gold Glove, and Silver Slugger all simultaneously; he’s on another planet
Thec’s
Red Sox running out of pitchers to sign! They better get with it
Slider_withcheese
All this does is leapfrog them past the pirates.
Dotnet22
Until Burnes is traded and the Ace of the Brewers is………
Dotnet22
I think you’ll be disappointed. Just like your wife.
themed
And the cubs
themed
Not overpay great signings all of them
benhen77
Going for an all-Twins rotation, I see.
Wagner>Cobb
Not the flashiest move, but probably the best “realistic” move they could have made. The benefit of signing Gray as opposed to trading for Cease or Glasnow is they have kept all of their pitching prospects (whom they seem to believe in) and all of their position player depth.
Now we get to see if any of Hence, Roby, Robberse, Rom, Thompson, Hjerpe, Graceffo, Kloffenstein, or McGreevy (etc.) will pan out in St. Louis.
And all things considered, I am personally a fan of Gray and always have been. I always thought he’d be a good fit for the Cardinals.
ArchRivals
Standing on its own, I really like this deal for the Cardinals. But this signing, in the wake of the deals for Lynn and Gibson, not so much. Sonny Gray is a nice #2, but unless there is a trade forthcoming for another high-ceiling starter (Glasnow, Cease, Gilbert?), I do not like where the Cardinals are. If you take all 3 guys together, plus Mikloas, you have at best +/- 700 innings of average and aging starting pitching. That has value, but probably not $70M in value with no more room at the Inn. With the Cardinals history, they treat an offseason like a shopping list and I’m shocked that they were able to sign 3 guys anyway. I have a feeling that Mo’s about to check out.
barkinghumans77
I could see a trade coming. Have to relieve areas where there is a logjam of sorts. If they could acquire Glasnow or Cease this would be an excellent offseason. Gray has 3 years but the other 2 are 1 year deals. Nothing tying them up
ih8tepaperstraws
I agree. He has a contract until after 2025, but I think he steps down after the year. When they suck agaon, Marmol will be fired this year. He’s given out two one year deals and a 3 year deal l. So he isnt handcuffing his successor with bad contract and he’s not filling up roster spots for the long term, giving his successor a lot of roster composition abilities. While allowing his successor to hire his own manager. Gray is merely a token signing for the fans to show they did something and sell a few more tickets. But the writing on the wall is reading another lame duck year for the Cardinals and Mozeliak. Alll the more reason to think Goldschmidt will be dealt at some point for prospects since he’ll be gone next year anyway. Just hope sooner than later because I don’t think he’ll have a very good year at his age, history says non PED first basemen fall off a cliff production wise at age 36.
Wagner>Cobb
In a vacuum, this is an excellent deal. If they somehow add another bona fide starter (I don’t expect this) then the relative disappoint of both Gibson and Lynn is neutralized.
Things that can improve the grade of their rotation signings as a whole, without new additions:
1. Matz stays healthy and throws 150 innings of the quality he provided in the second half last year.
2. Lynn bounces back to a relative degree due to a reduction of homeruns allowed.
3. Someone not named Sonny Gray gets hurt for most of the year and a young arm steps up and pitches at a high level (Graceffo, Thompson, Libby, etc.). Based on Mo’s comments earlier this offseason, I think the FO reasonably expects Graceffo to have a chance to surprise them in the Spring.
Anyway you slice it, the Cardinals are well-positioned to compete for the division again.
Rsox
Solid pickup for the Cards. The rotation is taking shape nicely
Astrosfn1979
After the top 50 FA list came out the majority of the projections looked very high to me.
I saw several comments about shorter years and higher AAV, and kept seeing the same response:
“AAV doesn’t matter. Total guarantee matters. Teams will lengthen a deal to reduce AAV after they decide the total guarantee they are willing to pay”
Well, so far it looks like the projections were a bit of an over reaction to last year’s longer, smaller AAV top end contracts.
Jim Crane and the Astros have always looked at shorter commitments and smaller total guarantee as the priorities. It looks like other teams are following suit as a market correction to last year.
Fascinating to watch. I hope it helps the Astros extend some of their current stars and maybe grab a FA or 2 they otherwise would be out on.
iml12
I think it helps that the Padres have no money to spend.
BaseballisLife
Padres already met with Yamamoto on Thanksgiving and are in talks with Soto about an extension. Ben Higgins did a great interview with Peter Seidler’s brother Tom earlier tonight and he said they will continue to fund the Padres as his brother did. A bit early to be saying they have no money to spend.
BrianStrowman9
Still too early to confirm but I was always right there with you. Last years market also had 2 teams that were spending serious dollars. The padres were stretching deals out forever to lower AAV & then you had the Mets burning cash without regard.
Without that going on now—I think you’re gonna see a normalization. We’re too early to say for sure and Ohtani will def be an outlier, but we’re on the Same page.
If bellinger gets MLBTR’s projection—I’ll have to eat all my words. There’s no way in hell he’s getting a 12 year deal.
BaseballisLife
Only one major free agent has been signed and he got a deal one year longer than anyone expected and $2.5 million less AAV than expected.
Might be worth waiting just a tad so that your molars are not full of shoe leather.
iml12
Meh. Padres would have signed Gray to a 6 year 120 million dollar deal to save 5 million on the luxury tax. Then all the fans would have clamored that 20 million would be nothing in 2029, payrolls will be 1 trillion dollars.
Astrosfn1979
Waiting and making a comment after the information is out there requires no thinking, anticipation, or balls.
Maybe I end up right and maybe I end up wrong, but what’s the point if I don’t say anything until after the signings are done?
BaseballisLife
Wait and be thought a fool or speak and remove all doubt.
BrianStrowman9
BIL
Will you feel like an asshat if you’re wrong and your mega deals aren’t the lotto ticket this year? I’ll remind you.
BaseballisLife
You are being one now. Should I follow your example?
MC Tim C
Other teams better stop pussyfooting around or St. Louis is just going to sign every free agent starting pitcher.
titanic struggle
Great signing Krall.. NOT!
Baseball Expert
Mozo now has his 3 pitchers. The front office is now closed until spring. Enjoy!
TrillionaireTeamOperator
Great signing. Very fair deal. Smart to up the AAV to keep the years down, probably has a 4th year option that could take it to $100M.
But it’s exactly in line with his market value and his age.
PinstripedPride
Congrats to the Cardinals on an excellent signing. Gray should do pretty well in St. Louis and I’ll enjoy watching how much they improve over last season. Plus, this takes a good pitcher away from the Twins. Anything that helps during the postseason…
Yanks2
Remember how abysmal he was in NY?
PinstripedPride
I do, but not every pitcher is built for New York. He’s thrived the last couple of seasons
Yanks2
Seems like aside from CC and Cole, no pitcher has worked out long term for NYY in the last decade
Yanks2
And Tanaka
Vince Coleman'sTarpMachine
So was randy Johnson
JimtheEsquire
Just here to see the Cardinals “fans” hate on this signing.
Ma4170
I’m in the minority here, but I see it as a bit of an overpay (not in years, but dollars). Nothing outrageous because he’s a good SP, but when you get to $25M AAV, even short-term, you’re looking for a clear number 2, which he’s not. He struggles to give you length in games, and his 184 IP last year were his most since 2015. Career 3.67 xFIP, 3.89 SIERA, 1.20 WHIP… good SP when healthy, but hasn’t been a TOR guy for years. A strong number 3 in my opinion, and if that’s worth $75M and $25M at 34 years old, then I think he made out a bit off a good walk year. He’ll probably put do well in St. Louis, seems to fit their culture.
jdgoat
They probably overpaid in dollars to keep him at three years. I’m sure they could have got him for 4/80 or something like that but value the shorter deal more.
YankeesBleacherCreature
That seems to be about the new norm for solid #2/#3 SP types – $1MM/start; ~160 IP. I think Gray could’ve received a fourth year for a slightly lower AAV while he’s always talked about not going for the most money.
Ma4170
Yep, i think I’m still having trouble adjusting to current sp salary levels
YankeesBleacherCreature
Hah! Just wait until you see middle relievers start coming off the board.
Yanks2
Did you forget he was the runner up for Cy Young behind a Gerrit Cole
Ma4170
No, he had a very good year. I don’t think he deserved to finish that high, but still a very good year. Doesn’t make him any more than what he’s been the last three years overall, and guarantee last year is the best he’ll be for the rest of his career considering his age (and he overperformed vs his peripherals, which usually evens back out).
Yanks2
From 2019 – 2023 he has a 3.22 ERA with almost 750 K’s in just over 650 IP with a WHIP of just over 1.100
Astrosfn1979
Lol.
Just finished 2nd in the AL Cy Young voting and he’s a “strong #3”
So he was the 2nd best SP in the AL last year but no better than the 61st best SP in MLB for 2024?
Yanks2
Yeah, I read that comment and realized how idiotic is was too
Ma4170
He wasn’t even the best pitcher on his own team, pablo lopez was. Gray was only better in ERA and nothing else. So that runner up CY vote carries little weight.
No evaluator cares about 4-5 years ago, last three years is what they look at – 3.30 era, 1.16 whip, 3.65 xFIP, 3.86 SIERA, 3.23 k/bb, 146 IP a year. Thats a strong three or a weak two. If that’s your number 2, you would need a very strong offense to win a championship. It showed in the postseason – one strong start but only 5 innings, one awful start.
Tdat1979
With all 3 signings having pitched 170+ innings this year I have a feeling that 2 of the 3 will end up missing significant time with injuries in 2024.
rodcarew
The Twins got a lot of value with Sonny Gray plus they get a compensation pick.
Good luck, Sonny!
TribeFan88
Don’t like the Cardinals at all, but this seems like a very nice signing.
Plus, Gray is at 98 career wins, so he’ll likely pick up No. 100 early in 2024. I know wins aren’t valued like they used to be, but it’s still a nice achievement.
jdgoat
The Cardinals are in a weird spot where they could be dreadful or back to playoff contenders next year. Their offseason so far screams desperation, but it could easily work out with a couple of bounce backs from guys who didn’t provide much last year. Gray is a nice addition though. They should be able to guarentee a few more wins this year due to him.
Dotnet22
Improving your team’s weakest area screams desperation? I don’t think you understand the meaning of this word.
LetTheGoodTimesROFL
Cardinals injecting some youth into their rotation.
Slider_withcheese
80M going to a rotation where everyone will be 34 or older by June 1.
twins33
Not a bad contract for the Cards, about what I expected for him
Not surprised the Twins weren’t going to do that, with the payroll being reduced and their aversion to big free agent SP contracts (anything over 15M per). He was going to be tough to replace even if he did re-sign with the Twins because I don’t think he would have suppressed as many HRs as he did in 2023. He pitched almost the same in 2022, but allowed more homers then. The 2022 version or worse is what I expect going forward
The Gray trade worked out amazingly for the Twins. The results were way better than I expected. I wanted them to trade for someone younger and I like(d) Petty, but he was worth Petty and so much more. Now they get a pick back that’s close to the “Petty” pick range. Slam dunk trade.
Jesse Chavez enthusiast
Well crap. Now I’m getting worried that Reynaldo Lopez is the only “starter” acquisition that the braves make. However, I am happy for Cardinals fans because of the people making fun of the Gibson and Lynn signings.
RunDMC
My goodness, we haven’t even gotten to the Winter Meetings. Some top names are just now being posted with interviews with Yamamoto taking place today, reportedly. There’s a lot left. Remember, AA cleared 10 roster spots that he still needs to mostly fill.
Jesse Chavez enthusiast
Yeah I know, I wouldn’t at all be surprised if the braves do make a move for cease or giolito or something. A small Part of my brain is thinking about what Kyle Wright and the Debbie Downers at Tomahawk Talk are saying though. To be clear I do think they will make a move. I considered Nola and Gray to be the two best options available though. I don’t trust Blake Snell. I don’t really see the braves as a realistic destination for Yamamoto unfortunately though. I don’t think the braves have ever signed anyone out of the NPB (correct me if I’m wrong though!) But yes. You are right sir.
n2thecards
the Braves will get a valuable starter and probably some decent bullpen pieces to boot. They’re in a good position ahead of Winter meetings
Jesse Chavez enthusiast
I feel like a starter and maybe a 4th outfield or shortstop option would be nice. (Depending
on if Vaughn Grisson is still around come march) Get those done, maybe add some depth pieces. It would be nice too if they could maybe grab some waiver wire guys that have minor league options available that they can stash on the 40 man roster. Possibly even take a chance on a guy like Adam Cimber for 1 or 2 million and hope he bounces back and call it an off-season!
@n2 you gotta be pretty stoked right? Gray is a fantastic starter and there is a chance Lynn has better fortunes this year. His underlying numbers aren’t too bad!
n2thecards
I am pretty stoked, I wasn’t expecting Gray. I bet ATL can find a good trade partner for a starter or reliever if they dangled Grissom or others at the meetings.
Jesse Chavez enthusiast
Yeah, I think that’ll be the route they go. Unfortunately if they do that it will kill an already weak farm system and I don’t think they will be able to keep Hurston Waldrop who I think will be a stud.
Jacksson13
Who is the next FORMER TWIN the Cards go after? Johan Santana??
n2thecards
CC Sabathia, probably
ohyeadam
Going with Emilio Pagan
Slider_withcheese
This is the Mike Leake signing all over again.
n2thecards
except I don’t think Leake was an all-star or CY runner-up the previous season. it was also a longer term. Leake didn’t have the lengthy successful record either. so, just like the Leake signing
bighiggy
Mike leake never finished 2nd in Cy young voting!
baseballpun
Matz was the Mike Leake signing all over again.
Daryl Pauley
One more to go. Who should it be?
Yamamoto, this eager fan says.
Charlie'sSinging
No chance of Yamamoto. No real chance of any free agent SP signing. There is a chance they make a trade though. I think they’d love to have 6 SPs heading into the year. They just can’t afford to sign another FA starter. I could see them dropping up to $5mil on a bullpen arm though. That’s about the max amount of cash they have left to spend, and quite frankly, they’d only do that if the right RP arm were available.
skullbreathe
The Cardinals now have four starting pitchers 34 years of age or older.. The over/under to all four staying healthy to Memorial Day is two..
BaseballisLife
So the Cardinals are now set for the season. Gray, Matz, Lynn, Gibson, Mikolas. Is that enough to get them out of last place?
Lanidrac
Out of last place, sure. I’d certainly take the current roster over what the Pirates have right now. But it’s still a below average rotation, and they still need a lot of help in the bullpen. They may be able to compete if they do make enough good bullpen additions.
Charlie'sSinging
It’s definitely an easier division. Pirates will stink. Reds will likely regress, as they got max efforts out of every rookie they brought up except de la Cruz. Most of the rest of them will take the usual step back, especially since they weren’t your typical 23 and under rookies. Brewers will take a step back as well. Cubs are the wild card. I think they’re feeling the market out to gage whether to dive in or not.
ih8tepaperstraws
I couldn’t disagree with your take more. The reds will be better next year. They missed Greene for most of the season. The Pirates will be much better next year as well. They’ll have O’Niell Cruz back, there is a lot to like about their youngsters. The Brewers won’t have Woodruff but they still have Burnes and Peralta. This will be their last year before they go back to last place finishes, maybe they add some offense and go for it. The Cubs lose Beinger and Stroman, but they’ll make moves. They didn’t poach Counsel to get worse. With the 3 SP the Cards are still pretty much the same team as last year and the offense will be worse. So yeah, a last place finish is extremely likely as well.
Charlie'sSinging
We’ll agree to disagree, which is fine. Greene pitched 22 games for the Reds (and very mediocrely, I might add), so they weren’t missing him most of the season. Oneil Cruz is more hype than reality at this point. He struggled mightily after his hot start when he got called up two years ago. Outside of Cruz and Hayes, their youngsters aren’t overly exciting, and neither of them have yet to live up to the offensive hype. Both the Reds and Pirates have subpar pitching staffs. The Cards, Reds, and Pirates were all sub .500 teams in the second half, and all were outscored on the season. Brewers will still be good. I just said I thought they’d take a step back. That seems reasonable when they won’t have Woodruff at all (I know they only had him for a third of the season last year), they lost their manager, and they seem to be entertaining trades on some other good players. I’d still favor them but think they won’t be quite as strong. The Cubs, as I said, are the wild card. They’ve lost a bunch but could add a bunch. TBD. Not sure anything in my statement was that controversial, but like I said, it’s all opinion and prognostication, so agreeing to disagree is fine when there’s no proof on either side.
Cleon Jones
3/75 is fair enough if results are close to this season’s.
Whats going on in Minny? Seems those guys cant get out fast enough. Thought they would reinforce that roster, guess not.
TennVol
Financial issues in Minnesota. They need to cut around 20-30M in payroll and Kepler and Polanco look to be moved.
TennVol
Not a Cardinals fan, but I am impressed with their offseason so far.
YourDreamGM
Fair enough. Not having to go 4 years is nice.
Moneyballer
This is trouble. You’re paying for his outlier season and hoping he is the same guy at age 37! Red flags all over the place with this one!
Lanidrac
The contract only goes to age 36, not 37, and if they were truly only paying for this past season, it would be at least $30M per year.
He probably will be significantly overpaid by Year 3, but hopefully by then the Cardinals will have developed or traded for a couple of good, younger pitchers to go with him in the rotation.
bravesfan
Braves should have made this deal
Lanidrac
It’s still a below average rotation, but in combination with the excellent offense, they can at least contend for a playoff spot
…
IF they also spend the rest of the offseason overhauling the bullpen. As it stands, they have Helsley, Gallegos, Romero, Naughton, and very little else, and even Gallegos is coming off a career worst mediocre season.
n2thecards
I would potentially add Matz and/or Thompson to that list. Packy was outrighted to Memphis, so I wouldn’t give him a spot yet. Pallante and King will probably be there again. I don’t see more than maybe 1 reliever added to the mix unless there’s a trade coming. There are wild cards like Rodriguez, Zuniga and Naile as well. I think they should outright Naile while they’re at it.
Lanidrac
Yes, whoever doesn’t win a rotation spot between Matz and Thompson can also be added to the list of decent relievers.
Those other guys all sucked at the Major League level this past season, especially Naile who I agree should be outrighted. I’d still trust Naughton over any of them.
Anyway, that still only gives them 4 or 5 decent relievers even before injuries hit. They NEED to make AT LEAST 2 decent or better additions, or the bullpen will just fall apart again, and they don’t even have Hicks this time.
n2thecards
I agree that at least 2 decent relievers are needed for a solid bullpen. Let’s hope they make additional moves during the Winter meetings
Slider_withcheese
Excellent offense?
19th in Runs
14th in Hits
17th in RBIs
15th in Avg.
14th in Slg
13th in OPS
Okay. Sure
stymeedone
Germans, Pearl Harbor, leave him alone. He’s on a roll.
Lanidrac
Those numbers were dragged down when all their good hitters except Goldschmidt, Walker, and Nootbaar were injured for most or all of September.
Meanwhie there should be further development among the young players, especially Walker
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
The Cards are dealin’.
Bnickles127
I’m so happy the mariners don’t have to make a trade and settle for Gorman Donovan or Nootbaar now that Cardinals rotation is set.. now the mariners can focus on signing bounce back players like Aaron hicks
n2thecards
this made me laugh out loud. you forgot Roby and Hence, though.
Joel P
Lol. Mariners fans are a bit silly. Logan Gilbert = Jesus.
Bob Ivy Jr
I think the Cards will get another SP,(if signing I would say Montgomery, if trading Cease) 2 RP, by trade or bring back Hicks. I will also get another impact bat.
Charlie'sSinging
Not bloody likely with these owners. They said they would roughly equal last year’s payroll, and they’ve already done that. They’re pretty much done. They may look for one RP signing for $5mil or less, but that would be about it.
User 3180623956
25/yr? Damn. Yamamoto and Montgomery have to be drooling at this point.
Joel P
2nd in Cy Young voting in 2023.
What the heck did you think he was going to sign for???
THEY LIVE!!!
This signing makes me happy and now I have my first correct prediction too!
Joel P
Good pick good for you. I thought it would be Montgomery or Gray but probably would have picked Montgomery if I was participating.
mbart33
Cardinals will be good till july
mbart33
Baseball is played between the ages of 22-32- Cards way over that number- no chance
JaysnCards
No way. More like 23-37. There are a few exceptions on the young and old end. There are too many to list that still play great (not just good) ball after 32!
TrillionaireTeamOperator
If that was genuinely true, league minimums/rookie deals would be exponentially larger, early extensions would be exponentially larger, etc. to account for the money the league brings in on the backs of these players.
I swear, the number of ‘fans’ in these comment sections who think nobody should be paid anything and then discarded by the time they’re 32 is getting larger by the year.
At some point y’all will be saying “nobody is young enough to play this game and anybody being paid anything is overpaid. They should be between the ages of 22 and 27 and they should be making enough money per game to cover bus fare and three 7-11 taquitos per day but only during the work week and only in-season and the rest of the year they should be getting shamed with a wagging finger for aging like a normal human while they apologize and beg for change on the streets and hand over that change to the billionaire owners of the teams and say ‘thank you for the privilege of repaying you for the privilege of playing this game while losing money doing so, in order to line your pockets further.”
THEY LIVE!!!
Cards need to find a taker for Matz now and sign Frankie Montas.
Travis’ Wood
“His strikeout rate was a top 25 figure among qualified starters”. There were only 44 qualified starters this year meaning he was in the bottom half! Why frame it as a positive when it’s clearly a negative? Come on guys be better
stan lee the manly
This is such a bizarre take. He’s one of 25 starters in the entire majors that was able to have a high strikeout rate while pitching a lot of innings. Why in the world would the fact that only 44 starters were able to hit the required innings mark be a bad thing? This makes him even MORE valuable because starters just aren’t eating innings anymore.
Travis’ Wood
Because the point being made was about his K rate not his ability to eat innings…. Can you read? How is being ranked 25 out of 44 a good thing? It’s literally worse than average? I dont think you understand basic math…. He didn’t have an high K rate….. no idea why you’re saying he did. Also he only threw 184 innings last year which was his most since 2015…. So you’re wrong about him being an innings eater too…. Brutal comment dude
Charlie'sSinging
Not getting into this whole fight, but just wanted to point out that this ain’t your father’s MLB 184 innings is an “innings eater” in this day and age. Very few pitchers get left in to face an order the third time around. That means anyone averaging around 6IP per start is considered (relatively speaking) going deep in this era of analytics. It’s an entirely different game.
Travis’ Wood
And yet before this year he hadnt even thrown 184 innings since 2015…
Charlie'sSinging
Yep. Like I said, not interested in a fight. He had some minor injuries in 2021 and 2022. 2020 was a lost year for all MLB pitchers if we’re counting innings. In 2019, he had 175 IP, which isn’t exactly a mile from 184. Odds are decent that he misses a few games here and there, but he’s never really been a major injury guy, relatively speaking again, so that wouldn’t be a major concern in a contract. He averages about 28 games started over full seasons in his career (taking out COVID year and partial rookie year). That’s not bad, considering most MLB pitchers suffer a major injury or two over a 10-year span. You can kind of see the gradual change in managerial mentality over the course of his career, as he started out as a 200+ innings guy in Oakland, but would likely be more like a 180 inning guy in a full season now. That’s not him. That’s the nature of the game. Anyway, that’s about the only point I cared to make on this one. All the best to you. Happy holidays.
TrillionaireTeamOperator
Wow. That is a hefty option. I guess they met right at his AAV valuation of $23.335M a year without the buyout.
So it’s 3 years/$75M or 4 years/$100M, I guess?
$23,330,000, $23,335,000, $23,335,0000 plus $5,000,000 or plus $30,000,000.
Pretty much on target for value.
Very good deal. Might not go well in the end, as some say, but think about how many question mark deals have wound up as fair value, if not bargains and how many seemingly slam dunk deals have wound up as massive albatrosses.
I feel like people want Gray ‘s deal to fail because of age biases.
There are people in these comment sections who say “Over 30? Why would anybody give this person money or a roster spot?” but “Under 30?’ Sign ’em for infinity years and infinity dollars.” and the reality is somewhere in between.
It really does seem like as far as the comment section goes, no player ever deserves or performs to their exact salary AAV or the guaranteed years on a deal- they either under or over perform. There is no fair value.
Which is not true.
Sonny Gray got a very fair deal in both years and AAV.
JaysnCards
Great signing. So glad it’s just 3 years with a 4th club option. He will be a valuable addition probably for all 3 years of the contract
Redbird71
The Cards want to win again , Life is good.
notoe69
Without someone to pair with Gray we are still a .500 club
Stlhomers
Great pickup. Next, give me Cease or Yamamoto.
Charlie'sSinging
Zero chance on Yamamoto. Cease would depend on whether Walt has lost his fear of trading prospects. My guess is that he hasn’t.
gdjohnson
Gray isn’t worth $75m and giving up a pick. Better to spend that money plus Lynn’s and Gibson’s money on Yamamoto.
Charlie'sSinging
Yamamoto’s AAV would be much lower than the combination of those two, but I suppose if you want to spread out the posting fee as part of the AAV, then maybe. Either way, the Cards are now out of that sweepstakes, so we can put those dreams to bed.
stan lee the manly
That’s not even remotely true. If they move Matz and TON, they free up $17.5 mil with those two moves alone. That combined with Goldy’s $26 mil coming off the books next year means they could easily fit Yamamoto into the budget if they want.
Charlie'sSinging
Who on earth would pick up Matz’s contract? You can’t live in a dream world on this one. Even if they move Matz, they’re eating salary, guaranteed. TON is possible, but not enough to sign any SP who is a difference maker. “Easily” fitting Yamamoto into the budget is also not true. If you’ve followed them (and I’m guessing you have), you know there’s no “easily” with this ownership group and budgets. Yamamoto is out of the price range. Need to get over that one. Hoping for Matsui at the back of the bullpen is far more realistic, as he doesn’t come with a posting fee and would obviously cost far less to begin with. We have to be realistic about what can happen and what we know about how this team is run.
Charlie'sSinging
I would also expect Goldy to re-sign on a cheaper deal, as I don’t think they want to lose his presence and everything he brings to the table. Yes, it would be nice to slide Walker in at 1B, but I don’t think they’re cutting ties with Goldy. He’s signed for $22mil this year. I don’t think anyone would be surprised to see Goldy come back on something like a 2 yr/$35 mil deal with a mutual option for a third.
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
The real question: is the sky sunny or grey in St. Louis? We shall see
Kershaw's Lesser Known Right Arm
Wait you can sign free agents for almost exactly their estimated worth?
AM21
This’ll be an albatross of a contract by July.
baseballteam
So his actual first name is Sonny? “Hey Wilma, let’s name the little whippersnapper Sonny!” “Ok Jimbo.”
comebackcub
Did Gray get hurt signing the deal?
RobM
Good move here by Cardinals management. They needed three starters and they added three starters before the other teams enter desperation mode as names start dropping from the free-agent board. Gray, Lynn and Gibson historically are all good start 30+ games a year and pitch 180+ innings. More than ever, that’s valuable in today’s game. The analytics guys will all marvel at Tyler Glasnow’s swing-and-miss stuff, but he’ll struggle to give a team 100 innings. The three pitchers the Cards sign will take a huge load off the bullpen, which will strengthen the other starters, and they did this without much long-term financial commitment. Two of the deals are one year, and Gray is three years and showing no signs of slowing down.
Another observation. The message points in Gray’s presser seemed designed to try and counter the perception he left during his 1 1/2 with the Yankees. Everything was about how he’s now a bulldog, and highly competitive, and you’re going to see that side of him as you get to know him better, blah, blah, blah. You want to be cool? Don’t tell people you’re cool. You want to be a high-pressure pitcher? Don’t say you’re a high-pressure pitcher. Go and show it.
I like Gray. I think he picked the right market to succeed. His agent started planting stories well in advance of his free agency about how the Yankees tried to change him and that’s why he failed. B.S. All teams fiddle with their pitchers, all teams try to introduce new approaches. If it doesn’t work, then go back to what does work. In Gray’s case, when he was told to go back, it still didn’t work. No matter. I think he learned from his time on the Yankees, made him stronger and a better pitcher, and the environment with the Cards will be much less of a pressure cooker.
Good signing by the Cardinals.
seth3120
I like it but I don’t like the combo of Lynn, Gibson, and Gray as a fix. Lynn needs a turn around. Let’s not forget Matz was moved to the bullpen for a good while penciling him in the the rotation is far from a guarantee. They made things difficult signing Lynn and Gibson. Do they sign a sixth starter? Are we out on Yamamoto or other top end rotation arms now? Inning eaters are nice back end starters but I think we could only afford to sign one and two upper rotation arms that possibility might have passed. As usual we will pin our hopes of rebound years from one of those starters. We need Hicks back plus others to pick up the slack. I hope one is a swing man but 12 million seems like a lot for a swing man. I like Gray he’s just not enough
Charlie'sSinging
Pretty much agree with all. And from Mozeliak’s mouth: “I don’t think we’re looking to add starting pitching now”. We’re done. This is our rotation. We’ll add a bullpen arm or two though. If they get Matsui and his performance translates, it’s still a solid offseason. I think he’d be their preference, but they have obvious interest in Hicks as well.
rond-2
Seems like a lot to pay for Sonny, but the Cards need pitching.
Non Roster Invitee
If you don’t get that guy you get this guy. Hello board.
joefleury
No doubt Gray had a fantastic 2023, but this feels like an overpay. As a Twins fan I appreciated his work ethic, preparation, and time with the club, but at his age I do not think it will hold up as well with the Cardinals. I think Gibson and Lynn are solid but not spectacular adds as well. I don’t see this stable of arms delivering in the playoffs though and they need a Glasnow to truly have a shot. The lineup of the Braves or Dodgers would feast on a rotation like this.
Poolhalljunkies
You should probably say “healthy Glasnow” as he is the current postor boy for the term injury prone
BaseballisLife
So its actually a 3 year $70 million deal with a 4th season option at $30 million and $5 million buyout for a total of $75 million guaranteed.
Bounty Hunters IA
Worst rotation in baseball! Looking forward to another 100 loss season in the cesspool. It’s hilarious to read deadbird fans think Yamamoto is going to go there based on this signing and Lynn and Gibson. He want to play for a winner, not be a part of this declining franchise. Plus they are way too cheap to pay what his salary is likely to be.
Charlie'sSinging
The Cardinals haven’t lost 100 games in over 100 years, so not sure who you’re talking about with the “another 100 loss season” comment. Your team? I’m guessing their history is significantly more pathetic.
rememberthecoop
As a Cubs fan, I’m envious. I don’t understand why the Cubs weren’t even in on this guy. Great signing, and the Cafds did exactly what they said they were going to do. How often does that happen in professional sports?
Card66
Well , now that the Cards have actually signed a real starter, maybe it’s time to start trying to trade for another one, they now have Lynn and Gibson to use in a trade. I’d rather see Gibson stay if they choose to trade one of them, just a thought, by trading one or both of them it frees up payroll and I’m sure there are teams that would love to have one of them..
LordD99
Teams can’t turn around and immediately trade free agents they signed a couple days prior. There’s some time limit. Maybe midsummer? Not to mention, meaning I now will, good luck signing future free agents if they know they’ll be traded elsewhere the next week.
Card66
You are correct , teams can not trade them till Mid June .
Silas
Today it’s mostly Sonny, tomorrow will be Gray.
Spaced-Cowboy
Manoah for Walker and Matz? Go sign Montgomery or a Japanese import? I can’t get a good gauge on Walkers value, but I do know the Cards would love a mulligan on the Matz contract. Would appreciate a Cards fan take. Cheers
Charlie'sSinging
No chance Walker gets dealt, especially for Manoah after all the question marks of last season. They plan on him being a Cardinal for life. They just need to find a corner IF spot or DH spot for him, because his OF defense is horrendous. Very doubtful they sign any more SPs. Mo actually said something to that effect in a recent interview. There’s a lot of click bait out there talking about how they’re still in the running for all the top SPs. There are a couple of problems with that: 1) They said they would spend roughly what they spent last year, and they are at that point already. They’re approximately $3-4 mil over last year’s payroll now. They had to backload the Gray deal just to get down to that point. That’s almost certainly why they structured the deal that way, not to add flexibility for more signings this year, as the speculators want to think; and 2) Mo said it himself – “I don’t think we’re looking to add starting pitching now”. Those two things should shut the door on the rumors of more top end SP…but they won’t. They’ll look to find a couple of deals for the bullpen and cash out for the offseason.
Spaced-Cowboy
Thanks for the insight. Both were first rounders in 2019, 2020. I figured the value would be closer.
Charlie'sSinging
Sorry, I should have made it more clear that that’s Walker’s perceived value in the eyes of the Cardinals FO. Their true values may not be that far apart except for the fact that Walker should have an extra couple years of team control. Walker should be a stud hitter, but he really doesn’t have a true position on the Cards. If they don’t bring back Goldy after next year, it’ll be 1B. Anyway, the main point is, the Cards let two all-star outfielders go for minimal return (almost no return for one of them), and they’re gun shy about trading any prospects now. That’s the main reason something like that wouldn’t happen.
Spaced-Cowboy
What about the appeal of shedding the Matz contract? Walker should only have one more year of control than Manoah (and his service time needs to be adjusted for the crap last season?) I guess it’s not an unfathomable trade, it just doesn’t seem likely is a better way to see it?
Spaced-Cowboy
Also I see him as a contingency plan for 1B, so there’s that. I just don’t see a former Cy Young finalist going for cheap, if at all, and looked at other bright prospects that are either redundant or had an off/poor season to line up a trade.
Charlie'sSinging
Completely agree with you on that. The talk of Carlson for Manoah were nonsense. Manoah’s value is significantly higher than that. Yes, Cards would love to shed Matz’s contract, but not at the cost of a true prospect/young MLB star. They don’t roll that way anymore. So your logic is absolutely sound, but the Cards just wouldn’t do it.
Enregistre
Holy crap, does Nick Deeds know English? “Strong as Gray’s platform season in 2023 was” isn’t proper grammar. It needs to be “AS strong as Gray’s platform season in 2023 was.”
Then there’s “while there’s still plenty of front-of-the-rotation caliber arms available…” While there is still plenty of arms available? Seriously? He did this on an another article yesterday too, for crying out loud. Hire an editor for this hack or fire him.
Spaced-Cowboy
You should see the horrendous writing on other sports info pages. MLBTR is a blessing.
Enregistre
Let’s see it!