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Cubs Close On Cliff Floyd

I swear I used that headline last week, but here are.  Paul Sullivan reports that the Cubs are "on the verge" of acquiring Cliff Floyd

He'd platoon with Matt Murton, which begs the question: why does Murton need a platoon partner?  As I said five days ago:

"It seems like a great way to stunt Matt Murton's growth and waste a year of cheap service time.  Floyd hit .266/.342/.423 against righties in '06.  Murton managed a .295/.356/.426 line against them in his first full season.  The Big Murt also hit .319/.390/.522 after the break.  And he has red hair."

There better be a brilliant Jacque Jones trade in the offing.  Still, while nonsensical, this move won't rival the Jose Vidro trade for the offseason's worst.

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This only makes sense if the cubs ditch Jones then put Sori in RF. Maybe use Murton CF with Floyd in LF. On days when Floyd needs off move Murton to LF and let Pie play CF. If Murton can play CF - not sure he can

I cant see floyd platooning with anyone. He was very outspoken about wanting to stay in NY, and if he wanted a platoon, im sure that he would have been resigned. I still think he can to the AL and play everyday as a dh

This signing makes absolutely no sense. I cannot believe they are going to waste 4-5 mil on a part time player that wont equal what they will get from a full time Murton. I think this will hurt both players and the team.

The only thing that makes any sense to me is to trade Jacques Jones and a few pitching prospects maybe even Sean Marshall to the Phillies for Rowand. Play Murton in RF and Soriano in LF. And leave Floyd to the Devil Rays.

Well, I actually don't mind this signing for the Cubs... I think it makes sense... He is going to come at a discount because he gets hurt putting his socks on and if he can stay healthy then his upside is to the moon... He is a left handed power stick which they really need in this lineup... Good signing if the dollars and years are right and they get rid of Jacque Jones... I honestly can't see them getting rid of Jones for anything of value... If the Phils can't get rid of Pat Burrell for anything of value then it makes me believe Jacque Jones won't get anything either.

Phils wouldnt touch Jacque Jones in a million years.... They would just sign trot nixon instead....

Not sure about Murton in CF, but if that is what it takes to get him in the lineup everyday I am all for it. I could stomach Soriano, Murton, and Floyd in the OF. That is if we trade Jones, and one would think that something like this is in the works, but after the Jennings trade to Houston im not sure what they are gonna go after for him?

I doubt Murton would throw near as many worm burners as Frenchy McSlap or Super Jaqcue in CF.

Im not too worried about Floyd though, because once he gets hurt we will be seeing alot of Murton anyways. And if he doesn't get hurt we should get 25-30 HRs out of him. We also have pretty decent backups in Pagan and Ward in the OF.

I am a cubs fan and I just don't understand what the hell they are planning to do in the OF. Soriano has been promised one spot full time, which I would think would be either right or left. Then you have to play Murton in the other, so what is the point of signing floyd unless there is already a deal in place for Jones??
I would love to see Pie, but there is no telling if he is ready or not. Floyd just seems to be like a smarter but gimpier version of Jones. Maybe he doesnt make as many bonehead plays, but he also cant get to the balls that Jones does. Jaque only costs us 5 mil a year and there is nobody that is going to give us 25-30 bombs and a .280 avg. for that kind of money. I think he and the Cubs are stuck with eachother and I dont see the need to sign another player unless they platoon Jones and Floyd, who to me are about the same player anyway. Even then, we are blocking Pie because there are now 4 outfielders battling for 3 spots. Put Pie in that mix and he doesnt have any room to stuggle or grow. The OF situation is a mess and I just dont get what he is doing.

My final suggestion is not to trade Jones, not to sign Floyd, and let Pie and Pagan battle it out for center field. They are both left handed and both would play at least average to good defense. If Pie isn't ready then Pagan should play a good CF. Any production from that spot is going to be a bonus anyway, and I think Pagan could be a really good player if given the chance. He can absolutely fly, so he should be able to cover serious ground in center. That leaves Soriano and Murton to play full time and doesn't block Pie. It also gives them another left handed bat in the lineup everyday, something they really need. On top of that, it saves at least 5 mil a year that they can set aside for big Z.

I like Floyd, but this only makes sense if he can play RF and not block Murton in his inexpensive and coming productive years.

IF Floyd can handle RF, put Soriano in CF and dump Jones for a bag of balls, if possible. Give Pie and Eric Patterson a good half season or more at AAA to see if they really are prospects for CF in 2008 or not.

It seems like there is no market for JJones, but maybe in spring training if a would be contender has an injury or two and needs a stopgap OF, they might give a midlevel prospect for Jacques--otherwise he's a very expensive 4th OF.

Hendry and his staff really don't have much of a clue at player evalutaion. We Cub fans can only wait and hope that the next GM can deal with the mistakes from this overmatched crew.

Im gonna sweat this one out for a while..... I can already see the rumors flying... Jones and Howry for Rowand and Lieber.... I think the Phils could get alot more for Rowand and Lieber but I just don't know... I've seen the Phillies make worse deals...

Random, but just read that the Braves signed Chriss Woodward to be their everyday 2B. LOL

I like what you say Aduncaroo, but if we keep Jones and bring up Pie and Pagan for CF we have Murton and Jones splitting time in or LF if you put Soriano in RF.

I feel more comfortable with Soriano in LF despite his strong arm. The winds in Wrigley are tough in RF and he just doesn't have enough time in the outfield to put him in Right or CF.

I also like the idea of dumping Jones. Even if we eat half of his contract, if we can get a decent 2nd base or catching prospect.

But having Pagan as the 4th outfielder works for me. Start him in CF. Keep Jones off the bench. See what he can do. Then trade Jones in spring or mid season to an AL team. He can still hit decently. Its too bad we didn't trade him back to the Twins before they signed White. :-)

What I would like to see is

Soriano LF
Pagan CF
Murton RF
Jones 4th playing any position to give others a break. Keep Pie down for most of the year, but bring him up with the 40 man.

My question is will Ronny Cedeno play SS? Or will it be Cesar Izturis?

At this point it really doesn't seem like the cubs will get anything more than a couple of minor league nobodies if they decide to trade jones. I know the rotation is still extremely flawed but I don't think the cubs will aquire another solid starter the rest of the offseason simply because you dont give a guy 3/21 to maybe make the rotation. I think signing marquis was easily the worst signing of the offseason so if the sign Floyd, atleast it wont be the worst one, right? I am all for throwing pie into CF and batting him 8th. He is still struggling offensively but he is apparantely playing above average D in winter ball which is going to be good in that OF. Any offensive production from CF at this point is a bonus. With that being said I still think the best solution is to just move jones to CF and see what happens. I understand needing a lefty bat but you don't need to platoon murton! Come on Hendry! But I certainly don't want to see floyd and his injured self without a very good back up. I dont like the floyd signing but if it does happen I'm torn on whether Jones should be traded or not.

I guess the OF is just too overcrowded not to trade him.

Murton
Floyd
Pie (?)
Soriano
Jones

all battleing it out for three spots...

If all of those guys remain with the team I think you've gotta give it to murton, soriano, and jones and throw jones into CF. I guess Murton will probably be platooned though.

"My question is will Ronny Cedeno play SS? Or will it be Cesar Izturis?"

I hope thats a joke...

And also...You can't keep jones as a 4th OF. It may be a move you can do on your PS 2 or w/e but he would flip a shit if you tried to do that in real life.

I actually like this signing. murton is going to get his playing time and there's nothing wrong with adding a guy with pop to sub for either murton or jones! he's a great bat off the bench and basically wouldn't sign if he really expects to play everyday. we need a left handed bat and he would make our lineup explosive on the days he plays. with all the messed up things the cubs have endured its good to see there thinking about the just in case situations. come on now look at the lineup when he would be in it.
soriano
derosa
lee
ramirez
floyd
jaque(capable of playing cf)
barret
izturis
Homerun hitting Zambrano.

that's a pretty good lineup, but of course I also believe murton has what it takes but then again you can't be sure so floyd makes sense to have.

The thing that makes me mad about this signing is that this has been rumored for so long and it was never rumored that they even spoke to lofton's agent. Lofton is a much more sensible signing because he, you know, plays CF. He would have been a low risk, low years signing until pie is ready

Why not? Jones hasnt impressed me that much. I would rather take a chace on the unknown wiht Pagan playing CF and if that fails then trying Jones in CF. I mean they paid 21 million for a chance with Marquis and 40 million for a pop fly lefty in Lilly why cant they have Jones ride the pine and play someone who produces?

Floyd wont sign if hes not playing everyday. Floyd isnt very good off the bench at all, atleast with the mets he wasnt great at pinch hitting. I seriously dont see him signing anywhere to ride the pine.

Bleacher Buddha...its not that the cubs wouldn't like to make jones a 4th OF..its that jones would never ALLOW the cubs to make him a 4th OF. He already requested a trade. Imagine if we didnt trade him and then made him the 4th OF? I think he would just stop showing up until we cut him.

Maybe we just have to say screw it - take the defensive hit and go with this lineup:
Sori - 2b
DeRosa - ss
Lee - 1b
ARam - 3b
Floyd-LF
Murton - CF
Jones -RF
Barret - C

Although personally I would rather see Sori bat 5th and go Derosa/ Murton 1/2

Jones is moving to center before Murton does. And the cubs have already said that De Rosa is the startin 2B

Personally I hope Floyd doesn't sign - solves alot of problems. I know cubs said DeRosa would be 2b but that was before signing Sori - he might be willing to change as I beleive he was a ss in the minors. We dropped the ball on this bigtime - should have aimed for Lofton and traded Jones ( putting Sori in rf). I know at one point Murton was rumored as tradebait for a SP - maybe thats the gameplan? I hope not but with the cubs you never know.

what if Floyd signs in Texas. he could be a good DH and Arlington would help him. He could aldo help in the outfield

look this is what's gonna happen. jones is gonna end up in center while soriano and murton platoon the corners. floyd will be in at times for murton depending on whose starting that night. he'll also get to pinch hit a lot which I think is way better then mabry. but I do see hendry keepin his cell phone on just in case he feels he has a good enough reason to trade jones. and why are you guys so willing to start pagan?? yeah the guy is capable but people are making it seem as though he deserves the spot. he's average and that's it I'd rather put jones in center. now what's really going to mess things up is if pie has a great spring training. for now barring any trade or news you gotta start jaque in center, murton in left and soriano in right!!

only line up that makes any sense is

1.cedeno or izturis
2. derosa or barret
3.lee
4.soriano
5.ramirez
6.floyd
7. derosa or barret
8.murton
9. pitcher.

thats the only lineup that i think has a good chance .

but still the cubbies wont beat the astros or neither the cardinals, pshhh no 1 will beat the cards they got albert pujols and carpenter! lol

The fact that you still think cedeno has a shot at starting makes u have 0 credibility in my book. The Cubs already told Soriano they didn't know what position he was going to play, all they could guarantee him was that he would be leading off. Cedeno and Izturis are not lead off men! Murton makes more sense as a leadoff man than cedeno or izturis.

I agree wit you greenbay. I don't know who told this guy cedeno had a shot. they would keep theriot before they keep cedeno! soriano is leading off and that's the end of it!

why do u want a guy that hits 35-45 homeruns(solo shoots)leading off, yea he is fast and all, but he doesnt have and high batting average and he is a swinger, he doesnt take that much walks.

and about the cedeno sign, im not a cubbies fan so i dont know much about the other players.

Sori is more of a 5 hitter but will lead off because thats what GM promised him and thats what sweet Lou wants as well. Cedeno has 2 yrs to get ready, which is good since he is about 2 yrs from being ready lol.

in fact if the cubbies want to trade jones they should look for a lead off man, they be lossing a lot of runs produced by putting soriano leading off. 2 bat will be also good.

last season he hit 46 homers and didnt even get to 100 rbis.

I agree completely that Soriano is wasted in the leadoff spot but thats what the cubs are doing because thats what lou wants and thats what they promised him.

The guy has flaming red hair. 'Nuff said.

I would worry more about keeping Zambrano in the fold than signing a wounded aged LF'er. Have to figure the big Z will get $2-3mil a yr more than Zito. I would offer him 3yr 52 mil. He might take it - and cubs have backloaded Sori and A-ram so it won't cripple payroll. Imagine what he could get in 3 yrs if he pulls in a cy young or even WS crown. He would only be 29 too - could still get a 5-6 yr deal.

"this move won't rival the Jose Vidro trade for the offseason's worst."

Um, you think either of these moves is worse than Andrew Sisco for Ross Gload?

I know that one flew under the radar, but trading a healthy, 23-year-old, 6'10" lefthander who touches 96 MPH (can you say Randy Johnson) for a 31-year-old backup first baseman borders on insanity.

lol. "flaming red hair". funny how far red hair can get you!!! I agree with zambrano being our biggest player to concentrate on from here on out but I'm pretty sure hendry knows the importance of resigning him and if he doesn't then you better believe the cubbie nation will let it be known. The fact is these guys know what there doing and get paid to know what there doing so I have faith zambrano will be wearing cubbie blue for years to come but then again if hendry doesn't hurry you never know what could trigger in big z's head that can cause him to leave. I'll be pissed off if management messes this up but then again its not the first our last time everyones favorite teams have let us down. that's just how it is but we still love the game.

Gload for Sisco wasnt horrible. You have to look past the numbers. Sisco was not working out in KC.


And the M's are paying the majority of Vidros contract and giving the nats two prospects. Easily the worst trade this offseason.

I love having the big Z - but if we go into spring training with no deal we are playing with fire and could lose him for nothing. If we let them negotiate with him before a trade I am pretty sure Minaya would give up Pelfry, Milledge and Heilman. We could then spin Heliman and Milledge to A's ( maybe with a Guzman or Marmol) for Haren and Saarloos
this would give us
06
Haren
Lily
Hill
Prior/Miller/Marshall
Marquis
07
Haren
Lily
Hill
Pelfry
Marshall/Prior
Marquis

my bad- make that 07 & 08 ( sure most of you knew what i meant ) Sorry

If heilman and milledge could just so easily get Haren I feel like it would have been done already.

Thats why we have to toss in Marmol - perhaps Guzman

no no no zambrano is worth more then milledge and heilman! hendry won't even think about trading him unless zambrano demands to be traded and zambrano has already made it clear that he wants to stay in chicago. he loves the city and the fans and the BULLS. plus there's not many other places better to play in when it comes to the limelight then wrigley besides the obvious(new york and boston). but you don't make trade proposals at this time.

and then we could trade Jones for A-Rod and then we trade lou pinella for a candy bar and then swing the candy bar and lilly for matt cain benitez and barry bonds and then we trade barry bonds for vlad guerrero and chone figgens and then we trade for buehrle and jenks and then the cubs win the world series..


Gotta love the cubbies fans....

"If heilman and milledge could just so easily get Haren I feel like it would have been done already."


Precisely.... well said...

I will say this.... Heilman and Milledge are the most overrated and talked about trade pieces I have heard of in years....

If these guys were as good as Mets fans believe they are.... You guys should have had Ortiz, Papelbon, and Ramirez for those two by now...... I've heard so many damn rumors about those two getting traded for everyone from Manny Ramirez to Freddie Garcia... It's crazy....

lmao!!! He said then trade lou pinella for a candy bar! aahhh funny shit phils ill give you that one but don't judge all cub fans you haven't heard shit like that come out my mouth. I know what my teams strengths and weaknesses are and I don't propose ridiculous trades that only the average fan would.

lmao!!! He said then trade lou pinella for a candy bar! aahhh funny shit phils ill give you that one but don't judge all cub fans you haven't heard shit like that come out my mouth. I know what my teams strengths and weaknesses are and I don't propose ridiculous trades that only the average fan would.

With everyone piling on the "trade jacque jones for a bag of balls" bandwagon, i don't know why the cubs FO doesn't get ahold of Texas who desperately needs a decent corner of. Texas doesn't really have anything the cubs need but hell 27 hr's could turn into 35. maybe. yeah i know that's a big maybe! but anyways just a thought cub fans.

wow - didn't relize simple comment would snowball - this is just like your standard bar arguements. First off - cubbies07 Big Z is worth more than Milledge and Heilman which is why I added Pelfry. And I beleive I read on this very site that Mets and A's were talking about Heilman and Milledge for Haren ( though could have been Harden I do occasionally mix them up - so shoot me) but it got hung up because the A's wanted more. Wouldn't a decent prospect like Marmol or Guzman with the 2 mets be considered more? While my hyptheticals are probably abit on the fantasy side - they are not to the extent you are making it out to be. But like I said - just like being at the bar - except the drinks are cheaper lol

now don't get me wrong everyone is entitled to there opinion but the proposal you made for zambrano was just awful! I know you have to be ready for anything in this game but right now is not the time to think about trading zambrano. you do whatever it takes to resign this guy. to quote the guy above "zambrano could make 2-3 million more then zito" so that tells you how important this guy is. he's an ace, you could get an allstar for zambrano, you don't think about trading him for milledge and the other garbage you said. I don't mean to sound like a dick but it really gets to me when I think about the cubs possibly doing dumb shit like that.

zambrano is gone of the cubies for next year

the cubs spend major money this offseason and forgot the most importan thing their ace.

zambrano might stay if he wants to and that be a bargain for the cubs.

once again he does want to! he's said it numerous times. you know it seems a lot of times people say shit just to say shit!

Come on. Some of these comments border on insane. Getting rid of Zambrano - Are you serious? This is as stupid and ridiculous as the Albert Pujols discussion that erupted on the last Cliff Floyd post. BTW I agree with the guy who said the Cubs should move DeRosa to SS and Sori to 2nd. That opens up a Murton/Jones/Floyd Outfield and would (amazingly) produce one of the best lineups in the NL. Of course the defense would be god-awful.

Hey, i think Cliff Floyd is a very good pick up for the cubs. Its going to give us a steep bench. I think that Floyd will have a good season because he is from Chicago and wants to play for them. I think this move could be big. I think it should be Floyd in LF, Murton/Pie in CF, and Soriano in RF.

I really dont get why the Cubs would need Cliff Floyd. They keep saying that they need a left handed bat for the bench....well we just signed Ward and already have a few other guys that could fill that role. If we sign Floyd the only thing I could think of is maybe putting Soriano back at second, Floyd in Right, Jones in Center,and Derosa or Izturis at Short. I really dont know what the cubs are doing.

of course the lineup would be great if they did it that way but like you said our defense would be awful and you can't win like that plus we've got a good ss in izturis and will be 100% healthy so he has to play. soriano is better off in the outfield. floyd will get his at bats so don't worry about the lineup as much as what's our best team to put out there and rack up wins. God I Love This Game!! and by the way fuck the redcrows.

ooops someone just said that...but thats the only thing i could think of if the cubs signed clifford. if the cubs did sign him we could have 3 or 4 Gold Gloves,but they would all be from the infield.

So with Floyd, the line-up looks as such:
1.Soriano
2.Derosa
3.Lee
4.Ramirez
5.Floyd
6.Jones
7. Barrett
8.Izturis
9. Big Z
I'd like to see this:
1.Baldelli
2.Izturis
3.Lee
4.Ramirez
5.Soriano
6.Murton
7.Barrett
8.Derosa
9. Big Z
Screw the lefty BS. Baldelli is great, and that lineup would be much more productive than with Floyd.

oh how I love to see all the cubbie fans here with all there insight. some good some wierd but altogether great fans. the chicago cubs have the best fans in baseball period. can I get an amen from all the great cub fans out there?

god i hate cub fans

I'd love to see Baldeli in center. We would actually have a lead off man...because I dont want to see Soriano leading off. You dont have a guy that could hit 50 homers leading off. We would probably have to give up some of our young pitching and they can have Marquis too...i hate that signing. Another thing I dont get besides Marquis is why the Cubs could not sign Schmidt. They gave Lilly 40mil and Marquis 21mil and Schmidt only got 37 mil. I really didnt get that.

ha ha don't be mad cuz nobody shows up for your PLAYOFF GAMES!!!! your praising the braves like there on the verge of winning it all but its more like there on the verge of starting the rebuilding process. the cubs could have 9 mickey morandinis out there and the fans would support the team more then the brave fans would on a game 7! and you can't be upset cuz you know its true. can't sell out when your in the playoffs that's fuckin sad!

ya and the cubs are just sure bets to win it all.

and at least there are playoff games for ppl to go to

The Braves may have had a better team in recent memory but it doesnt change the fact that the cubs have better fans so i don't see your point...

lol u knew he was gonna say that!!! greenbay is absolutely right the braves have been the better organization but come on man empty seats during the playoffs is just laughable! the teams with the best and most loyal fans are the yanks, bosox, cubs, and mets and yeah the redcrows seem to like there team as well.

Hey man,

Any time a group of 60000 screaming Philadelphia fans can be seen in the 700 level of a stadium smoking pot and beating up someones mom for wearing a mets hat... That's a loyal group of fans... Philadelphia fans are nuts enough to have a judge at the stadium and a jail... Name me one other stadium that has that... Philadelphia fans tailgate for days before a game and days after a win.... They live and breath the Phillies.

you know what I apologize I tend to forget about philly and I don't know why. you guys are a great sports town and if someones mom is getting beat up at the game then I'm pretty sure that's a damn loyal ass fan to beat a mom up for something said. but let me ask you something, can you beat a whole bunch of drunk white girls showin you some titties between innings???

nope... definately not.. Im sure they would get what was coming to them.. A 12 inch sausage and cab fair back to the trailor park. I gotta say this though.... It not that we hate Cubs fans, it's that they think their the only organization in the world that suffers... In Chicago you guys have the Bears and the Bulls to "fall back " on..How many titles do they have between them. We in Philly have the Eagles, who are coming off a 6-10 year... The Sixers' ( lets not start that one)... The Flyers ( another touchy one) and the Phillies... The Phillies show life every year and always tease us... All together we havent one a title since I was 1 year old.... That was back in 1983 when the Sixers won the NBA championship.. I wanna walk down broad street and be proud... Dont tell me you've suffered Chicago, cause you have no idea.....

your absolutly right we do have the bears and bulls and we've had the greatest nba player ever in our city but I don't complain about the cubs being the only org. that's suffering. we complain yes but not about being the only team suffering. we get the most attention about not having success cuz its been almost a century since we've won it all. trust me I know what you mean and I feel your pain but for me baseball is my first love so the bulls could win 6 more titles but I would trade em all for just 1 ws title and I'm sure others will agree. keep your head up though you'll be walkin down that street eventually its inevitable!

The laws of probability are with us..... Im still gonna cry each and every time we end the season with a loss....

We almost got there in 04 with the Eagles... damn McNabb decided that the last 2 minutes of the superbowl was the time to get lazy.....

yeah I remember that one and that had to hurt but try and feel how I felt in 03' I don't even gotta say no more! I have to suffer still with mockings from everywhere. pictures on the internet, even family guy. Oh we were so close! it still gets me pissed just thinking about it. fucking alex gonzalez

"I love having the big Z - but if we go into spring training with no deal we are playing with fire and could lose him for nothing. If we let them negotiate with him before a trade I am pretty sure Minaya would give up Pelfry, Milledge and Heilman. We could then spin Heliman and Milledge to A's ( maybe with a Guzman or Marmol) for Haren and Saarloos"

If heilman and milledge would net dan haren i think it would hav happened already. I would rather give up those 2 for haren then add pelfrey in and get zambrano( granted i would probably still make the trade for big Z )but i would much rather add haren and keep pelfrey

Looks like Bill Bavasi and Jim Hendry are playing some high stakes game where they try to "out-retard" each other.

Alright-

First, Soriano is leading off and playing RF. Pay attention to what's out there.

Second, Cliff will sign to be a back up b/c nobody will sign someone of his age, coming off a serious achilles injury to start. If teams were that high on him, he'd be signed already.

Third, Jones is a solid commodity on the trade market. A left handed bat that can hit 25-30 HRs that only costs $5MM? Not many of those out there.

Finally, regarding the OF situation-everyone is COMPLAINING. Isn't it NICE to have options and depth (Pagan, Pie, Jones, Murton, Soriano, Floyd?) Good problem to have!

The Cubs probably wont get Baldelli. The Rays want the World for him. We may have a better chance at getting Carl Crawford. Either way we would need to Get Rid of Jones and NOT sign Floyd. Floyd isn't needed. We have a lefty bench player in Ward, whose OBP was .380 and he hit .308, who can play outfield to get a left handed bat in the line up if needed. Pagan is a switch hitter and Pie is a Lefty. For that matter Jones bats left.

We have a GLUT of outfielders now. Now somewhere in this thread someone said that they don't understand why Pagan is mentioned. I believe that he can play CF well. We will take a bit of a hit batting him but we have enough to make up for it.

I also like the thought of trading Jones to Texas. I live in the DFW area and they do need a corner outfielder/DH type. This is a good fit, and there are quite a few young position players in the minors we could seek, but Jon Daniels wont part with young pitching. But living here I also saw DeRosa and Soriano. We Cannot have Soriano playing 2b and DeRosa playing SS. We would have the weakest middle infield in the league. Soriano needs to develop to an outfielder. DeRosa and Izturis are much better. Also remember that DeRosa can play OF and play it pretty well.

I know this will piss GreenBay Dude off but I still like Cedeno's fielding. He plays SS pretty well, I know he doesn't hit well but either does Izturis. 06 numbers below

Cedeno
SPLIT G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB BA OBP SLG
Season 151 534 51 131 18 7 6 41 8 .245 .271 .339


Izturis
SPLIT G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB BA OBP SLG
Season 54 192 14 47 9 1 1 18 1 .245 .295 .318


In My Humble Opinion middle infield defense is more important than offense. Remember that Cedneo is only 24 and Izturis is only 27 during the season, and can still learn to hit.

But this thread is about the outfield so my thought is:

RF Murton/Jones
CF Pagan/Jones
LF Soriano
4th/5th OF Ward/DeRosa/Murton/Jones/Pagan

Line up

Soriano OBP 351 last year 41 SB
DeRosa OBP 357 last year 4 SB
Lee
Ramirez
Jones/Murton/Floyd depending on how they acquire players
Barrett
Jones/Murton/Floyd/Pagan
Cedeno/Izturis
Pitcher

I agree we really screwed the pooch on not even attempting to get Lofton.

Soriano got pitched around last year for obvious reasons, his OBP should drop somewhat. You are wasting the dude in the one-hole. A more productive line-up would be this:

(I am saying split the difference on Lee's career year, and the rest of his career. Something like a .920 OPS is reasonable. Same goes for DeRosa, we'll pretend like he is sniffing .800)

And stolen bases don't matter in a park like Wrigley, you would have to steal at like an 82% clip for them to even have a positive effect. Which Soriano doesn't do, but what he does do is hit fly-balls that will leave Wrigley at an alarming rate.

1 Murton
2 Barrett
3 Soriano
4 Ramirez
5 D Lee
6 Jones
7 DeRosa
8 Izturis

Just put Soriano or Jones in CF, their production will look good there, and it's not like there is an in-house gold glover anyway.

Against right-handers, I don't know what to tell ya.

first of all ward is signed to be lees backup at first basically taking mabrys place(thank god) so you can't keep considering him as another outfielder. they've already made it clear that he's way to slow to put out there so he'll get the core of his at bats as a pinch hitter. and why are you guys so damn high on murton I watched this guy all last year and he was ok. yeah his second half was good but some of you guys wanna bat him leadoff and think he's this awesome phenom waiting to explode. he's not he's average with some upside yeah but soriano is leading off. are they wasting him in that spot? yeah I think so too but one of the reasons he signed besides 136 million was because they promised him the spot. and please get off cedeno already, yeah he has good range but makes a lot of mistakes. he tends to overthrow a lot and plus you traded away maddux for izturis who like you said is only 27 and has proven his skills at ss.

Before Murton was called up to the Cubbies, BP had him ranked in the top 20 of all Minor League hitters. He is a guy who can work counts and hit the ball to the opposite field. He shows flashes of power. When he loses his patience he swings earlier in the count and it causes him to slump.
Some of that could partially be due to the chicago fans/media calling for more power out of him halfway through last year. That's about when he tried to start guessing which pitches were going to be fastballs. When he went back to working hitters counts he regained his momentum.

cubbies07, Murton is going to be an above average player. Very solid.

I don't see what the fuss over Floyd is. They're going to pay a few million dollars for a guy that's hurt all the time. They could spend a little more money gauranteed and get a guy that will perform day-in-day-out in Aubrey Huff. Huff seems to be intent on shopping the 3rd base market, but he definitely has the outfield experience to do the job. I think the only way they get Floyd is if something is in the works with Jones, and then I'd still rather have Huff.

cubbies07,

I don't "want to bat him leadoff," I am glad the Cubs are too not put a guy that could have excellent plate discipline and already has a high OBP in front of Soriano. Not feeling pressured to hit homers would do wonders for the kid who is going to be a good hitter either way.

I am glad Soriano will hit in a spot that sees less than 100 RISP versus the middle of the lineup, he might hit 50 homers in Wrigley next year - putting him in the three-hole translates to something like 17 more runs in that case, especially with a guy like Murton on base ahead of him. He is set to see pitches more often this year, for nine-hundred reasons and his OBP should be less than league average, there is little need to steal in that bandbox, it makes no sense.

As a Cards fan, I am more than happy to see that the Cubs are, in fact, that stupid.

If Soriano is actually leading off every third at bat it's because everybody else sucked. I'd like to see some statistics about the number of times each spot in the batting order lead off an inning last year.

I think Piniella should put all the names in a hat in order to determine the lineup.

look the MAIN reason soriano will bat leadoff is because he's a fastball pitcher! he's gonna see a lot of fastballs in that hole. if you put him in the 3-5 hole yeah it would make more sense on paper but then he would see less fastballs and pitchers will get him swinging at offspeed stuff which he's not great at picking up thus making him less effective! that's y you put a fastball hitter on top. he'll see a hell of a lot more good pitches to succeed on. its funny how people who don't live in chicago think they know exactly what there talking about. stick to your cards and email larussa.

look the MAIN reason soriano will bat leadoff is because he's a fastball pitcher! he's gonna see a lot of fastballs in that hole. if you put him in the 3-5 hole yeah it would make more sense on paper but then he would see less fastballs and pitchers will get him swinging at offspeed stuff which he's not great at picking up thus making him less effective! that's y you put a fastball hitter on top. he'll see a hell of a lot more good pitches to succeed on. its funny how people who don't live in chicago think they know exactly what there talking about. stick to your cards and email larussa.

"If Soriano is actually leading off every third at bat it's because everybody else sucked. I'd like to see some statistics about the number of times each spot in the batting order lead off an inning last year."

Here you go:

http://actasports.com/sow.php?id=110

That's the Fielding Bible guy, John Dewan, he definitely knows what he is talking about.

cubbies07,

A leadoff hitter is supposed to see as many pitches as possible, not be a fastball hitter. You don't think that Soriano sees more fastballs with Ramirez and Lee behind him and possibly runners on base? Are you out of your mind?

You seriously know very little about baseball, you show that every time you post.

I live in Chicago, by the way, unfortunately that has very little to do with it.

"if you put him in the 3-5 hole yeah it would make more sense on paper but then he would see less fastballs and pitchers will get him swinging at offspeed stuff which he's not great at picking up thus making him less effective! that's y you put a fastball hitter on top."

Wow.

oh my god are you fuckin serious?? look say he's batting 4th and lees already on 2nd with ramirez due up. there's 1 out. are you gonna tell me that there gonna throw fastballs to him knowing he has the ability to drive em out? no there gonna get him swingin down and away. you won't walk him cuz of a-ram so you pitch to him and do you throw the pitch he's good at smacking NO there gonna try and get him swingin on there other pitches. HENCE you put him at the top so he can see those fastballs not between hitters who can do as much damage. your fuckin ridiculous on this matter. no shit he looks better in the 4 hole but he's not there is he? obviously they want him at the top for a reason right? if your the first to bat then there's no one on base so then obviously your chances of seeing a fastball would be a hell of a lot better then him batting with runners on. move the fuck outta chicago and stop swearin your some kinda fuckin baseball genious. the guys that get paid to put together the lineup have done so. enough said!!!

Honestly, have you ever heard of protecting someone in a lineup? I am honestly curious as to what you think that means, and the reasoning behind it.

Let's say he hits 50 homers, you're insane if you think that won't be wasted somewhat in the one hole.

Leadoff hitters come up to bat 100 times less over the course of the season with RISP, do the math.

I am not swearing that I am a baseball genuis, just that you are a true idiot.

This wouldn't be the first time the Cubs did something that was completely nonsensical.

Kinda like paying $138 million for a leadoff hitter I guess.

guys i'm not here to pick a fight but i've seen sori ALOT..... I go to lots of Ranger games, Sori will absoloutely suck in the 1 hole. all this talk about getting him to swing low and away..... why wouldn't they throw low and away to him in the 1 hole? whatever. cub fans i'm just telling you enjoy the power and he's exciting, but he's not the guy that lineup needs at the top. just my 2 cents. flame on. whatever

By the way, I didn't want to see statistics on how many plate appearances the lead off batter gets, rather how many plate appearances to lead off an inning.

And there is absolutely no statistical evidence to support 'batting order protection.' I'll site baseball prospectus on that one.

plh, the only question is, would soriano hit 50 dingers if he wasn't batting 1st? He has a pretty nasty track record of not doing well elsewhere in the lineup. So why not put the player where they perform best?

Dave, that showed you how many times a leadoff batter comes to the plate with a runner on base. I could only assume that is exactly what you were getting at, in fact, more to the point then just when a leadoff hitter, leads off an inning. Make sure you scroll down to the second part, which is actually relevant.

If you want to know that, for whatever reason, check the baseball-reference splits, you can find that information about Soriano over the life of his career.

I understand that BP doesn't like batting order protection, but at this point they are only trying to explain conventional baseball wisdom, which would suggest otherwise. Maybe wrongly, but it has little to do with my point. A tangent of our little squabble.

"plh, the only question is, would soriano hit 50 dingers if he wasn't batting 1st? He has a pretty nasty track record of not doing well elsewhere in the lineup. So why not put the player where they perform best?"

Well, the BP research you cited would suggest that this is a non-issue, you can't have it both ways.

Simple logic would suggest that if he hits 50 HRs, and sees 260 ROB ahead of him, that would be less productive than him hitting 40 HRs with 360 ROB ahead of him.

Especially since he makes a ton of outs otherwise. Just an all-around bad choice in the leadoff spot.

In 2005, he hit much better out of the five-hole. He has a better track record out of the one slot, slightly, over his career, but that doesn't mean that his production won't be somewhat wasted in that spot.

I meant 50 on both counts, sorry.

does anyone know a website with video of Lou Piniella going off? if u do plz post it thx

It's win/win for the Cubs. If he's healthy, then he'll give better production against righties than Murton would. Combined, Murton and and a healthy Floyd would make one well above average left fielder. I don't think this will stunt Murton's growth, it just gives the Cubs more depth in '07.

Hmmmm...anyday now, huh? This would be a terrible signing. How about the Cubs just sign Bonds if they sign Floyd. Hopefully they are realizing what a bad move this would be.

The Cubs should go after Darin Erstad because Felix Pie is not ready. Cliff Floyd is a bad signing. He is injury prone and getting up their in age. Ryan Church is younger and that would a good fit too. Trade Jaque Jones for Brad Penny. The Dodgers are looking for another outfielder.

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