Matsuzaka Talks Breaking Down

Plus there is a misconception that he will be a free agent after this season when really he has two more years left to go. He wants to pitch in the majors, Boras wants that 10%, and the Sox want a starter. It will happen

How many times does it have to be said? Papelbon is not going back to the bullpen. It's not a matter of baseball but rather health. He needs to save his shoulder and pitch in the rotation.

The next person that mentions Papelbon gong back to the bull pen should be banned from posting on this site because this is starting to get out of hand. HOW HARD IS IT TO GET IT THROGH SOME PEOPLE'S MINDS: HE CANNONT PITCH OUT OF THE BULLPEN FOR MEDICAL REASONS...PERIOD...IT CANNONT BE SAID ANY CLEARER THAN THAT

Paul -- Be prepared to jump off the bridge later this week and then if you survive the fall, be prepared to come up with an alternate suicide plan when after the negotiation window closes, DMat and Boras buy his free agency from the Japanese club for around 30 million and then he signs for top dollar with the Yankees as a free agent for this upcoming season. The Yankees will refund that 30 million that Boras and Dmat put out in his contract plus Boras will be able to commission every cent of it of what DMat makes in this scenario. Boras can't commission the 51 million and he can't live with that and DMat can't live with the team getting that much money and him getting only 1/2 the salary he would get if he were a true free agent. This is what Boras has been working toward the whole time since and the Japanese club will grant him his free agency when he buys it from them. There are no rules against that.

THE RED SOX AND BORAS WILL WORK IT OUT (SORRY FOR ALL THE CAPS LOCK BUT I HELD THE SHIFT KEY FOR EIGHT SECONDS AND IT LOCKED SOMETHING UP)

where is steve when you need him

Nice theory but don't think that would happen...if it did baseball would go under a huge scandel and would collapse

I'm sox fan, and I would be okay with it. As the Sox were willing to commit $90M over 4 years to DMAT ($51M plus a 4/40 deal), they would definitely not be outbid by any team for him, and would probably save money in the end.

I've heard a couple of things:

1. That Matsuzaka isn't a free agent next year. So Seibu won't exert much pressure if the bid doesn't go through because they'll simply recoup that money next year anyway.

2. If Matsuzaka is a free agent, then there'll be more pressure from Seibu so they don't lose the bid money all together.

Either way, the 7 million a year offer is an insult considering that Marquis will be making that amount. And trust me, Matsuzaka probably considers it an insult.

Gugs-

you clearly have not learned from the Yankees' inability to Buy a series in the last 5 years.

I would absolutely LOVE to see both Pettite AND Clemens gone from Houston though.

If he does stay in houston:

"Roger Clemens signs for 25mil/1 year in May."

LMAO.

"No one will give a guy who has never pitched a single pitch in the major leagues 6/120."

If Boston was giving up $51M to talk to him, and offering him 4/32, as reported, that equates to 4 years, $83M, which is greater than $20M per year.

So I dont get your logic.

I think what everyone fails to remember is how important the Sox are to Boras. Some teams won't even touch Boras-represented clients. The Red Sox have exhibited this year that they are not among those teams, throwing millions of dollars and extra years at a risk like J.D. Drew and signing another Boras represented client in Julio Lugo to go along with Jason Varitek and Alex Cora. This side of the Yankees, the Sox are most likely the biggest market. Scott Boras can't afford to lose this connection for the future of his clients... ESPECIALLY if D-Mat eventually signs with the Yanks. Boston would never deal with Boras again.

"No one will give a guy who has never pitched a single pitch in the major leagues 6/120."

If Boston was giving up $51M to talk to him, and offering him 4/32, as reported, that equates to 4 years, $83M, which is greater than $20M per year.

So I dont get your logic.

Actually that logic makes perfect sense. Bidding for a guy is totally different than from what you are willing to pay them. I would never give someone who has never walked on major league grounds $15 million either, however, i would bid as much as $51 million...why? Its a win/win situation...You win the bidding you can negotiate if you don't agree you don't lose money...if you sign him you get a great player and you gain money from a foreign market

You guys are obviously not Red Sox fans. I have known all along that this will be taken to day 30. Boras, the Red Sox and everyone involved are bluffing. 7 million is NOT, I repeat NOT the highest per year bid. He will sign for 4 years, not this 6 year bullcrap. Do you get that he is 26, and a 6 year wil put him past his prime, thus reducing his next free agent contract. So bottom line: On the last day, Matsuzaka signs 4 years 60 million.

"You guys are obviously not Red Sox fans. I have known all along that this will be taken to day 30. Boras, the Red Sox and everyone involved are bluffing. 7 million is NOT, I repeat NOT the highest per year bid. He will sign for 4 years, not this 6 year bullcrap. Do you get that he is 26, and a 6 year wil put him past his prime, thus reducing his next free agent contract. So bottom line: On the last day, Matsuzaka signs 4 years 60 million."

Careful how you word this buddy...there have been a few comments on this board by people who have said he will sign with Boston...take a look at my posts for example

As for Clemens, I'd say his odds are 60% Astros, 30% Red Sox, 10% Yankees. Just because Pettitte signed with the Yanks doesn't mean much for Clemens. I see the hometown thing being a huge factor again, but it's also the case that Clemens will once again get no run support and pretty much no chance at a World Series if he stays with the Astros, and he's well aware of this. Just my two cents.

Any one else notice how the liveliest debates in MLB since the strike ended in '95 have nothing to do with the games played on the field at all?

The free agent shenanigans and steroid controversy is all the general public hear about. Its frustrating when a sport that has been considered the national pasttime for more than a century takes a back seat to the NFL and sometimes even the NBA.

Joe Blow in Provo, Utah probably couldn't name a player from the World Champion St Louis Cardinals(if they even know they won the WS), but they could tell you who they think is a steroid enhanced cheater without watching a single game the past 5 years.

Its easy to blame the media for this, but its really the fault of agents like Boras, money is no object owners like Steinbrenner, and players who cant compose themselves as anything less than a liar(on the steroid front) when confronted about it.

Perhaps if Mark McGwire and Barry Bonds were more willing to "be here to talk about the past" or "stopped accusing the media of making their children cry," people would care about the 162 games each team plays.

another possibility is that if no deal is worked out with boras, then maybe seibu reposts him immediately. is there anything saying that they would have to wait another year? i mean there is a lot of the offseason still remaining.

Scott,

I think you ignored the post. The bid is not $51.1M reasons why D-Mat is the best thing since sliced bread. It's the price of doing business AGAINST OTHER TEAMS in an inflated market. What the Red Sox had to pay to win a right to negotiate under an MLB posting process in no way translates to what they should pay a pitcher who has never thrown in the major leagues.

These inflated salaries are as much a function of the union structure of rewarding service time as they are a recognition of talent. D-Mat has not put in that service time, and therefore he is not "entitled" to reap the rewards of the union system simply because the Red Sox paid an exorbitant posting fee.

As I mentioned above, if D-Mat did have the leverage of an MLB free agent, then the bid amount would never have come close to approaching $51.1M. D-Mat's status as a rookie was factored into that amount.

You're all trying to take apples and argue for all the ways they should translate to oranges. You can't ignore the realities of the business and compare D-Mat to Gil Meche. Gil Meche put in his time under the free agent system. D-Mat did not. Period.

integr96 - yes, part of the rules for the posting process is that he has to wait a full year to be posted again.

"baseballfan, you're obviously new to this site. We discussed the whole conspiracy thing over and over again when the bid was announced. It doesn't make sense. The Sox block him from the Yankees, then he just comes to the Yankees anyways when he becomes a free agent and saves them a ton of money in posting fees. It would have been better to let him go through the process and hope another team outbid the Yankees (which would have happened), and even if the Yanks won, it would cost them a hell of a lot more money than it would if they waited for his FA."

This is well taken but come on there are a few holes in this argument. First, the Red Sox are obviously trying to win THIS YEAR, and stopping the Yanks from getting this kid NOW helps their cause. Secondly, its the Yankees, is money really an option to them? Do you really believe that theyre scared to post 50 mill for this guy? I dont. Good strategy for the Sox if theyre tryin to win this year.

Dunkin,

First of all, all this stuff about "deserve" is silly - this isn't an arbitration hearing. D-Matz "deserves" to have a choice - either sign for a lowball offer, or go back to japan, or try to buy out seibu. If the sox are willing to let him go back to Japan, fine, that is there choice. But I don't blame DMatz for being insulted at this offer.

I don't like the service-time argument. Ability as a pitcher matters more than servicetime as a MLB pitcher. Hideki Matsui didn't have any MLB service time - neither did Jose Contreras. That didn't undermine their value as free agents. Did they inequitably reap the rewards of the union structure - one which they never participated in nor paid dues? Why shouldn't d-matz also be able to do this? Because he happens to be under control of Seibu? That lacks any sort of coherent principle. He should just wait the year and a month or buy out seibu.

At best, meche and Matz should be making the same - which means Sox are lowballing by about 4 million. Really, Matz should be making significantly more. They paid 15 million more than the Mets - and the thing is, if either the Mets or Yankees had won this, no way in hell would this have happened. Only with the sox would this happen. No other team bid close to what the sox bid because they knew that D-Mat would cost 15 mill a year. As other people noted, everyone knew his agent was Boras.

I never said the extra money would hinder the Yanks from signing Mats. They'll sign him if he's a FA, enough said. But I was just saying that if they're going to sign him, it'd be better if they did it through posting so they had to pay more money.

Sox are trying to build a team that would help both this year and the future of the franchise, and Matsuzaka does both. Just because the Sox dished out a lot of money makes people think they're just going for 2007, but it's not true.

You obviously haven't seen this kid pitch.

Scott,

Lack of MLB service time didn't deter teams from paying Matsui and Contreras as free agents because they were precisely that -- free agents.

Also, we have to acknowledge that their price was market-driven. The price went up because every team was eligible to bid for their services.

In this case, the Red Sox have already paid the market price for competition -- through the posting process. From a business standpoint, it makes no sense whatsoever to bid against yourself -- the only team eligible to sign a player -- by offering the player the kind of money it would take to trump 29 other teams. The other 29 teams are out of the picture.

As a practical business matter, you CANNOT divorce the posting fee from the amount that D-Mat is worth on the market, because the posting fee reflects the market.

What everyone who doesn't care about the business aspect of baseball is trying to argue is that D-Mat is a good pitcher creating a lot of stir, so he should be paid more than the other scrubs. What they're ignoring is that he, unlike they, is under contract.

If you want to argue that he should take his pitching arm and go home, waiting for a bigger payday all at once, I can't argue with that... it's a matter of opinion.

But if you're trying to argue that offering him less than Meche is getting is "lowballing," then once again you're ignoring the unique nature of the posting system, and the effect that it has on the market and on a player's leverage.

There's a reason rookies don't get paid $12-15M in their second year, regardless of how they perform. Because paying your dues within a compensation structure is an integral part of that compensation structure. D-Mat does indeed have a choice... but to say the Red Sox are lowballing for refusing to sink $26-27M per year into a rookie is absurd.

D-Mat signed a long term contract in Japan and he should fulfill his commitment. If he wants out of that contract badly enough, which the BoSox provided for him, he should take a big paycut. He's in no position to demand 13-15 million per year and the Red Sox know it. The MLB doesn't need him as much as D-Mat needs the MLB.

I just don't see him succeeding in such a huge town. No offense to you Boston fans, but Japanese fans are a little more passive than you guys - something he's probably not used to. The fact he doesn't speak English will probably help. Can you imagine how nervous he'll be if he pitches on opening day?

D-Mat isn't going to pitch on opening day! Schilling has reserved that right with years and years of excellent MLB play. D-mat, need I remind you, totals 0!

I said IF he pitches on opening day. Who knows when he will? He supposed to be an ace and aces usually pitch on opening day. I just meant his first start of the season.

wait who chose boras to represent d-mat?

what about the negatives?

who the hells matt harrington?

the red sox are gunna be broke! Drew, d-mat(pending), and manny!

at least now the Yankees have an incentive for Roger Clemens that the Red Sox and the Astros don't have - Andy Pettitte

now if Cashman puts up a simlar contract to that of Pettitte (1 yr @ staggering amount with an option for a second year) i think the Yankees actually have a better chance at acquiring Clemens than the Red Sox or the Astros

melyrules, I think I outlined all the negatives if a deal doesn't get done.

I don't see a lot of negatives if a deal does get done, besides the fact that Boras will feel he could have gotten his client more money in a different system. That is not enough, however, for a deal not to get done.

levelboss, the Sox are definitely not lowballing Dice-K. Refer to an above posting by Dunkin Donuts.

"I'm not sure why Seibu would be content to take $30 million in a possible buyout by Boras when they had $51.1 million taken from them already, I would think they would rather just pitch Dice-K again for a year and then go through the posting system again. Of course, they want the $ more than anything, and I'm not sure they'd be willing to work with Boras if this all falls through."

Because their alternative is zero as it looks unlikely the posting process would work any better next year. if it fails next year, they get nothing. 30 million ain't bad.

Astros will get him, Sox a long shot. We'd pretty much write him a blank check, like said above. Money wouldn't matter with Clemens.

I need to rephrase, money wouldn't matter to the Sox with Clemens.

"People said exactly the same thing about Pettitte."

I didn't.

jondogg, care to give up your sorce?

I guess my point, Scott, is that I feel like the Lions won't want anything to do with Boras. Lucchino made a trip to Japan to talk to discuss business with their owner. I doubt that the Lions would hold the Red Sox accountable for a deal not getting done, they would blame Boras. Just my opinion.

Jake,

Seibu is in desperate need of money. That's why the posted him to begin with. They might not like boras, but passing up 30 million - I don't care if the Japanese care about image, they aren't stupid.

Ok, Gil Meche sucks, and he got overpaid. D-Mat is unproven. What.

still wait'n on that source

do i really need to give my sources? fine; wikipedia.com, weei in boston and my good friend who has his own radio show in portland maine.

Die-Hard Sox fan, but I don't lose my jizz over one player.

wikapedia! wikapedia sucks!

I know, which is why I called up both of my other sources to confirm. I was the first to report on the Schilling signing, Papi's contract renewal, and more, so I am not one of you people who lie on this website. I am not a member of other websites, and I don't post on any either.

mlb.com says d-mat talks are stalled. Maybe mlb.com is stalled

mely i heard the iwamura talks are less far along than the matsuzaka talks are. There appears to be less of a chance that happens.

it's actually melkyrules, but something must abbreviate it.

what about igawa?