Brian Roberts Cubs Rumors

wow, i thought felix pie would have been in the deal

Hmmm..seems just a bit fishy for now, but we'll see. You know I'll be checking for updates. A lot!

The O's seem to get the TRADING AWAY TALENT part of rebuilding. Not so much the GETTING YOUNG TALENT BACK part. Whatever. 1 outa 2 ain't bad.

thats a so so trade cedeno is a ok to a lil a above averge plater marshall high ceiling is a 3 rotation starter but b rob will never do wat he did 2 yrs ago he was on the stuff and he has had ok season the last 2 yrs cmon i wouldnt pay no mind to this trade

I'm just sayin... their massive haul includes... what... about 7 low B-range prospects? I don't see any future cornerstones commin' from their dealings with the NL central.

If true, this is friggin sweet!

if this is true thent he Cubs got an absolute steal! Marshall is a 5 starter at best in the AL and Cedeno is Cesar Izturis. Gallagher is a B level prospect. well done Cubs

I am just worried what will happen with the middle infield. Will DeRosa become the utility player or will Theriot be the utility player? I am just happy that with everything you hear about the Cubs being sold that they are still making trades so they are a contender.

Can't be true. That trade is a joke. Macphail should be fired if all he got was that crap for Roberts.

Cedeno will be a fine shortstop. He tore up AAA last year, and would have become the Cubs' starting shortstop mid-season, if not for being blocked by surprise Theriot. Marshall is not great but had a few great starts. Gallagher, I will truly miss not getting to see him pitch. But Cubs needed a leadoff man bad. Aside from 1/2 a season of Kenny Lofton in '03, they have not had a real leadoff hitter since Bob Dernier in '84.

Ok Jerome Walton was pretty good in '89.

ESPN 1000 in chicago is reporting that the Roberts to Cubs rumors are "heating up" but there is no deal in place.......yet

How good do Orioles fans think Roberts is? The O's just got two potential big league starters and a potential starting shortstop for a second tier 2B. Who cares if Marshall or Gallagher tops out as a third starter? I'd take a third starter for Roberts. You weren't going to get a future star for him.

I understand this is a rumor site. You've either got a SCOOP here or it's just over-solidifying the speculation. It'll be intriguing to see which. Nobody else seems to be reporting this . . .

We'll have to wait and see but if this is true it could work out for both teams. Baseball America projects Gallagher as a #3 and compares him to Jon Lieber. I still think Cedeno will figure it out and be a good starting SS. I don't like Marshall's chances in the AL East. This leaves holes in the Cubs starting rotation. It might be time to sign the real Jon Lieber.

" The O's just got two potential big league starters and a potential starting shortstop for a second tier 2B. "

I'll agree Roberts isn't an elite player, but he fills a HUGE need for the Cubs. He is a leadoff

" The O's just got two potential big league starters and a potential starting shortstop for a second tier 2B. "

I'll agree Roberts isn't an elite player, but he fills a HUGE need for the Cubs. He is a leadoff hitter that hits for a good average, steals bases, and makes contact. He's just what the Cubs need.

Plus maybe Jimbo can then package DeRosa with others and try to get Chone Figgins as our centerfielder!

The last time the Cubs inquired about Figgins, Anaheim asked for Aramis Ramiriz in return. Unless their demands are more reasonable I would forget about Chone.

I'm a little surprised the Bedard/Mariners rumors have not included a Bedard/Roberts package deal...for Jones/Clement/Morrow/Triunfel/Tillman kind of package. Ichiro/Roberts would probably be the nest 1-2 in baseball at the top of the line-up and would ensure Beltre got a ton of pitches to hit. Felix/Bedard would be a very good 1-2 at the top of the rotation as well. If Seattle is going to give up guys like Jones/Clement + for Bedard minus well add some more and get Roberts...the proposed Cubs package would not be hard to beat.

Frankly, I would put zero probability in this report. This would not be the first time that the OH has reported a deal to be all but done that never came to be.

The Cubs have their starting five in Zambrano, Lilly, Hill, Marquis and Dempster. No need for Marshall anymore.

I absolutely agree with you on Dempster, but that is their current plan. A weak rotation at best.

As an example, OH was also the site that scooped every internet blog and news agency on announcing that the Orioles and Cubs exchanged Prior-Pie-Hill-CPat FOR Tejada-Bedard.

this seems strange...yes roberts answers the lead off spot but who is you cf? if pie will be bat 8th and stunt any growth he has? cant bat 2 ......
so the bottom will be 2 outs! will fuk play cf and dro play right? word is fuk is and wants rf! who will be back up ss....can dro play there?

NEVER trust Orioles Hangout. For the most part it's just a bunch of kids speculating on nonsense. I can't imagine that there is any way in the world they would get a scoop over Roch.

DeRosa came up as a SS. Theriot can play there as well.

my bad, i meant Fontenot instead of Theriot

I think we are over rating roberts here guys. This is a pretty good haul here for a 2b two starters and a shortstop. Cedeno put up monster numbers at aaa .359/.422/.537. Masrshal is improving to a number 3 and gallger ha promise. If this trade is real which I doubt the orioles got a great haul here.

Future, they don't have enough to get Bedard. And Bighurt that will not be their rotation on March 31st.

Wow. Whats up with all the hate for Orioles Hangout? Its a great site with lots of insiders who have scooped the news sites and blogs numerous times - most recently the Tejada trade which was reported there before anyone else caught wind of it. Sure there are lots of rumors that dont pan out but that doesnt mean they werent discussed within the organization.

This one wasnt even a poster - it was the site administrator who has many contacts within the Oriole organization. If he posts something, it means he has very good information. Sometimes things don't pan out and its possible this was a bad leak. But there is no need to bash a great website for it.

BIGHURT35 you never cease to amaze me,

"a weak rotation at best"

yep, 2nd in the NL in ERA last year, with the top three starters all clocking in with ERA's in the 3's, is pretty pretty, pretty weak.

Lieber making a return now seems more of a possibility for the Cubs if this infact the deal.

Who are they going to get? Who will take Marquis off their hands? They have said Dempster is going back to the rotation. What do you see in your crystal ball? Playing a weak NL central tends to help the stats a bit. I am not questioning the Cubs top 3 starters, it's the bottom 2 that are shakey.

"As an example, OH was also the site that scooped every internet blog and news agency on announcing that the Orioles and Cubs exchanged Prior-Pie-Hill-CPat FOR Tejada-Bedard."

As an avid reader of the OH, sorry but I am gonna have to call BS on this. Care to share a link? I love how people like you and others come here and bash the OH like its some type of tabloid. Their track record on scoops/sources etc. is very solid. Don't be so quick to judge if you don't have all your facts.

however, bighurt, marquis had a leage average era last year, league average from your #4 is fine with me...obviously an upgrade would be nice. dempster definitely worries me, he could definitely tank bigtime, and then the cubs would be forced to go to kevin hart, who did look pretty good in limited mlb action last year.

Aramis to Angels for Chone Figgins & Ervin Santana.

Figgins - CF
De Rosa - 3B until Josh Vitters is ready.
Santana - much needed starting pitcher.

I love Aramis but wasn't he 0 for 12 in the playoffs? Marquis & Dempster should have to fight it out for 5th spot. I would rather have John Lieber back, he is a bulldog!

Marquis started the year off strong and finished quite the opposite. Which Marquis will show up and for how long? We would all agree that an upgrade is definitely in order for the 5 spot. Lieber would be worth a shot.

"I love Aramis but wasn't he 0 for 12 in the playoffs?"

hard to believe that in this day and age of higher learning and statistical analysis, that there are still baseball fans who are dedicated enuff to blog during the offseason but would still make a personnel change based on a sample size of 12 at bats.

OSFAN77,

If 77 is your birth year then I have been an Os fan longer than you've been alive. I've been reading OH since they had Kieth Reed, Ed Rogers, Matt Riley, and Bedard in their Top 10 Prospect lists, which is pretty much the start of it. Pente is a good writer with some decent contacts and I personally enjoy scouting oriented articles there. It is a great arm to get a view of the minor leagues, esp. when some farm teams were located waaay outside of MD.

My only gripe with OH is the level of journalistic integrity there. I understand that it is an internet site and many websites are guilty of that, but just because everyone is doing it doesn't justify it. The culture that is created there, esp. the discussion boards, of "insiders" and poseur-insiders is pretty hit-or-miss. And as much as you hate to admit it, not to discredit the ones who really do have knowledge, there is a pecking order there that is built on insider-ness which encourages some who aren't real insiders to pose as one.

As much as it hurts your view of your favourite team site on the Os, understand that it is a privately run site independent of the Orioles official org. There is no requirement of the writers there to adhere to any kind of journalistic requirement to confirm their sources across the board. Some guys might take it on themselves to have integrity but even just a few guys who takes liberties is enough to make it all hit-or-miss unreliable. OH was the first place that scooped the rumors on the Tejada-Prior trade talks. That's a fact, and, it was true. To their credit. Though, aduring that time, you also had plenty of "insiders" who supposedly announced that it was a done deal too.

Reports: Roberts Traded to Cubs
By: Tony Pente 1/9/2008

Orioleshangout.com has learned through several sources that the trade of All-Star second baseman Brian Roberts to the Cubs has been finalized.

The early reports indicate that Orioles will get back 22-year old right-hander pitching prospect Sean Gallagher, 25-year old left-handed starting pitcher Sean Marshall, and 24-year old shortstop Ronny Cedeno.

Update: An Orioles official has contacted the Hangout and denied this report and said "it is completely inaccurate."

More to come as it develops.....

Reports: Roberts Traded to Cubs
By: Tony Pente 1/9/2008

Orioleshangout.com has learned through several sources that the trade of All-Star second baseman Brian Roberts to the Cubs has been finalized.

The early reports indicate that Orioles will get back 22-year old right-hander pitching prospect Sean Gallagher, 25-year old left-handed starting pitcher Sean Marshall, and 24-year old shortstop Ronny Cedeno.

Update: An Orioles official has contacted the Hangout and denied this report and said "it is completely inaccurate."

More to come as it develops.....

The deal is not done yet. We'll see. Angelos may just back out like he has done in the past with trades. I was hoping it would have been Murton instaed of Marshall in the deal, but...oh well.

I should also mention that I have been a paying subscriber to OH for the last 8+ years. So it's not as if I don't read the site. It's just that there are some things you accept purely on a "rumor" level and some things are a little more than "rumor".

For instance, I have much more faith in a Ken Rosenthal or Peter Gammons report on a supposed rumor, because the net of accountability holds those guys in check to go too far out there. Not all of what those guys report tupan out but it's based on more reliable info. Whereas an internet site where most of the discussion board users hides behind an anonymous culture of "insider-ness", all accountability is lost. If you get totally embarrassed with bogus reports, then users start a new account.

On second thought the 2 pitchers are pretty decent gambles for the O's but why get Cedeno ? They should have gotten another player. He'll never be anything.

Keep in mind that ROberts has been posting his OBP vs. some stiff competition in the AL EAST for all of his career. Halladay, Beckett, Dice-K, Schilling, Clemens, Pedro, with no real protection behind him. This would be interesting to see how his AVG and OBP are affected if he moves to a much easier pitching division like the NL Central where his team prolly has the best SP in the division, Zambrano. For those who have nothing more than the base numbers to go by, ROberts is the definition of tough out. He's one of those guys who's bat control is great and he fouls off pitch after pitch in every AB. There's no stat that factors that in so much, but I bet he helps any team out but tiring out the pitcher himself every game. He seemingly has 10 pitch ABs every game.

Great comment, futureprospect!

I echo Blutarski.

Marshall and Gallagher are fine. But ther are better options than Cedeno. I'd rather have Murton and find a ss elsewhere (Atlanta - Lillibridge??).

Tim,
I don't know if you caught Bruce Levine just now on ESPN1000 - he echoes others that are saying that the two sides are still exchanging names. He also said he heard that Angels are in play on Roberts as well.

Basemonkey, I agre that you need to take alot of the "rumors" posted on OH with a grain of salt, but I can't remember Tony P(the administrater) ever posting information that had not been confirmed. For him to do so now leads me to believe that he is very confident in his info. Also I'm sure you remember Rosenthal's article stating that the Tejada to Houston deal was dead less than 24 hours before it went down. Even the best get info that can be old news quickly.

I dont understand the "Os" fans here. Your getting 2 very good pitching prospects and a decent SS prospect. But your also going to save a few $$ in salary. So what do you want? Hill, Pie, and Gallagher, and a wad of cash? Keep him.

Starting five of Zambrano, Lilly, Hill, Marquis and Dempster = 2nd place to the Brewers next year. Brian Roberts' best years was when he was on steroids, doesn't matter who wins the NL, unless the Red Sox, Tigers, Angels and Indians all go down in plane crashes this year. The world series champ will be an AL team. oh well there is always next year... i mean the next 100 years

Although I like Roberts a lot he doesn't help the cubs as much as some other teams. They lose DeRosa's production which was pretty substantial and they really needed that starting pitching depth.

If this deal goes down as reported I don't think it will be good for the cubs. It would be hard not to win that division though - which might be the weakest one ever.

Look, I think OSFAN77 got me mixed up with a bunch of the more aggressively critical comments against OH. I just stated a fact. All I said was that OH scooped and pretty much announced an imminent deal involving Tejada and Prior a year ago (which is true). Take that for what it's worth. I am not bashing OH. I am just saying that it is a rumor-oriented site that shouldn't be taken on par with more jornalistic outlets out there. How much of a OH-basher can I be if I've been shelling out the subscription fee for 8 or so years? I bet the Os fans here who are criticizing me for calling OH for what it is don't even do that.

Another point is that all 3 players the Orioles would supposedly get for Roberts could easily turn out to be just a mix of several years of fringy cheap seasons. Calling Gallagher a #3 is much. He's nowhere near a lock. It's not because I have disrespect to his talent, only because I have such high respect for legit ML pitchers who put together solid years back to back to back.

Ill give you five reasons why it wont be hard to not win the division next year.

1:Less starting pitching and bullpen depth

2: Fukodome, more like Iguchi, than Ichiro. If you listen to Steve Stone at all on the Score he compares Fukodome offensively to Tadahito Iguchi more so than Ichiro. Now he has an Ichiro like arm and is great defensively.

3: A full year of Gallardo and Braun, and a healthy Rickie Weeks. If the Brewers had both of these guys the whole year, they wouldve won the NL Central last year. Dont forget the Cubs only won it by a whopping one game. Weekes wasnt at full strength last year until late in the year. If you compare the Cubs and Brewers position by position, the only clear place the cubs are better than the brewers is left and thats assuming they dont trade for a 3B and move Braun there (in that case Mil would probably be better in LF but the Cubs would probably be better at 3B so its a washout anyways)

4: Brewers no longer lack experience in a pennant race. Ned Yost had never managed down a playoff drive last year and it showed.

5: The yearly cub prospect busts. Pie's shown nothing in CF that he can hit at all, Soto had two good weeks and 2 games in the playoffs and now they are relying on him as their #1 catcher. Marmol has never closed and looked tired in the playoffs. Meanwhile the Brewers have guys like Laporta, Parra who already look like studs.

Interesting three way trade being suggested, Cubs/Indians/O's:

The O's primary needs are young and talented anyone's, be it starting pitchers to bulpen arms to outfielders to anywhere in the infield. The O's have two trading chips that are being discussed: B-Rob and Eric Bedard. Both, alone or together, would improve the Cubs or the Indians. For discussion purposes, only Brian Roberts will be discussed. Eric Bedard's inclusion into this already messy three way would only lose clarity.

Sean Gallagher & Franklyn Gutierrez fit the Orioles needs, but wouldn't be enough for B-Rob alone. For all intentions and purposes, Murton is a throw in. So, the O's would need more. Either a MLB Ready SP or a high ceiling position player (or two).

The Cubs needs are clear: The Cubs must get depth for their starting pitching and a shortstop. The SS doesn't have to leadoff with Soriano in place, but it provides Luppa Nella with options for his lineup. The SS the Cubs would receive in this proposed trade, Jhonny Peralta, is an above average to good fielder (not GG), superior arm strength and a bat that rivals just about anyone at the SS position. His power is to right center, so his offensive game would fit very nicely at the friendly confines.

The Indians needs are also pretty clear. They need an impact corner outfielder and 3B. Brian Roberts would scramble the Indians infield some, but, overall, it would be improved with B-Rob at 2B, Asdrubal Cabrera at SS. This would also allow the indians to move Grady Sizemore to a "heart of the order" spot, something they've tried to do in the past. The question regarding the Indians participation would be, why would the Indians give up two every day starters for one? Probably won't happen.

As it stands right now, this trade sort of misses the boat on the needs of the teams involved, save for the O's to get young and talented players. The Cubs get a SS, which they need, but it hurts their current starting rotation. The Indians get a leadoff guy (that they already have) in a position they are stacked at. On the whole, this doesn't look like a trade that should get done, but, it's hot stove time..so anything's possible.

Add Bedard into this mix, then the stakes get a LOT higher and the players become much better known.

"He's one of those guys who's bat control is great and he fouls off pitch after pitch in every AB. There's no stat that factors that in so much, but I bet he helps any team out but tiring out the pitcher himself every game. He seemingly has 10 pitch ABs every game."

Pitches per plate appearance. Roberts was 11th in the ML this past year with 4.2 ahead of Jim Thome, Ryan Howard, David Ortiz, Adam Dunn etc.

Suprisingly there doesn't seem to be a record that I can find of fouled off pitches per plate appearance.

Random slightly interesting note top two on Brian Robert's similiar batters adjusted for age:

Julio Lugo, Adam Kennedy.

Over-rated 2B?

Roberts lead all 2B in SB, 4th in OB%, 5th in runs scored (on a team that didn't score many) and plays every game.

He is a great guy outside of the ballpark too. I see him doing a lot of charity work in the community.

So getting a 4-A 2B/SS, a long man out of the pen and a 4th or 5th starter seems like a loss to me.

The other thing is I will take the Brewers starting pitching depth over the cubs any day of the week.

1: Zambrano Vs. Sheets-
Cubs get the edge here based on performance and health. Although if Sheets ever stayed healthy a whole year it could be alot closer. Sheets only threw 140 Innings last year and the Brewers were still almost there.

2: Gallardo Vs. Lilly-- Not even close here, gallardo wins hands down, plus Lilly is more likely to regress this year being it is his second year in the NL Central, and that he is a year older. Gallardo should be around the whole year and he could easily win 15-20 games, he is a borderline #1 on most teams.

3: Hill Vs. Suppan or Bush. I'll give the Cubs the edge here, but only be a little bit. Suppan's numbers are about what you would expect here from a 3, Hill's are above average and probably will get better. The reason I put Suppan or Bush is because with the Brewers pitching depth, I dont think both of these guys will be in the rotation, one will be in the bullpen (probably Bush)

4: Marquis Vs. Parra or Villanueva. Brewers get the clear edge here. I think the Marquis we saw in the 2nd half is closer to the real Marquis we saw in the first half. I think Marquis at best is a 8-10 pitcher, 4.50-5.00 ERA and thats assuming. The Braves didnt want him and they are usually pretty good judge of pitching talent especially with younger guys.

5:Dempster vs. Capuano.. This could be even but ill give the edge to the Brewers here based on potential. Dempster hasnt started in 5 years and when he did he was bad anyway. Capuano had a bad year last year, but certainly is young enough, has the stuff and history to win 10-13 games. I think if both are at their best Capuano is a much better pitcher and the same is true if both are at their worst. If you get somewhere in the middle, Capuano wins easily.

The bullpens for both teams could be a disaster. Letting Cordero go was a big mistake for the Brewers and not adding any depth (remember Howry and Eyre are a year older and Wood will probably be hurt for a large portion of the year at some point) was a big mistake.

The other team to possibly watch out for is the cardinals. They have easily the best bullpen in the division. The best manager (sorry cub fans, Lou is a good manager but also vastly overrated as you found out in the playoffs) and they have 2 starters who if they can come back are potentially better than both the cubs and brewers 1 and 2 guys. Where the cardinals lack is their everyday lineup doesnt even compare to the cubs, much less the brewers

ArodSucksAtLife,

Nice post. Roberts being 11th in MLB at PITCHES/PA is a very interesting stat when you consider that nearly every single guy around him is a power-hitter. So to me that's a big testament to his skill at fouling off pitches. Those other guys are players who will get pitched around. Roberts, however skillful he is, isn't the kind of power threat that pitchers pitch around, so it makes his PITCHES/PA stat even more more honest. If he had more legitimate 3-4-5 hitters behind him, a lot of his numbers might benefit.

Though another point for me is that a good chunk of Roberts' value is also tied in his speed and baserunning. I don't think his speed will diminish in 08 but you have to consider that speed is the first thing to go. So the Orioles might be selling at the right time on Roberts.

Gallagher isnt a top prospect by any sense of the word, hes very fringy, he doesnt even scrape the top 100 rankings. Marshall would struggle to be a #5 starter in the AL, and would most likely be a AAA player or a swing man in the pen for a bad team. Cedeno could be a stop gap SS in the Izturis mold. Baltimore should pull in at least 1 GOOD player for Roberts, and this offer should be extremely easy for anyone to beat.

MSS, you're over-rating your own players a little bit...Gallardo in particular. The guy is electric, one of the best up-and-coming pitchers in baseball, but he's just as likey, if not MORE likely, to regress that Hill is. Good pitchers are harder to hit the first few times they're seen...He's got a book written about him in every NL team's dugout now.
Also, the Marquis you saw last year is the same Marquis that everyone has seen over the last few years; solid first half, troubled 2nd half. That's just how he's been for 3 or so years now.

WHAT?????????

You mean Cedeno, Gallagher and Marshall didnt bring back Bedard and Roberts, and Markakis? WTF.

I'm much more suprised that Carlos Gomez, hasn't been traded through a Einstein-Rosen bridge for the entire 1929 Yankees roster.

"BIGHURT35 you never cease to amaze me,

"a weak rotation at best"

yep, 2nd in the NL in ERA last year, with the top three starters all clocking in with ERA's in the 3's, is pretty pretty, pretty weak."

I dont know about you, but while Z, Lilly and Hill are solid (not great by any means) 1-3, Marquis and Dempster are both really awful. That rotation isnt nearly as impressive as say, their lineup is. Should be an interesting year in Cub land.

Arod, the difference is, you will never ever see man propose Carlos Gomez in a trade for big time superstars. I might tell you that I dont want to trade him, because I love his tools and have a good feeling about him. But you will never see me post the nonsense that some of these cub fans do about my prospects. I have been since before the 07 season ended that the Mets will not be part of any big moves because their system is just not good enough at all. All I have said is that I dont want to trade Gomez. I never posted trade proposal with Gomez's name in it.

I also dont think that Gomez should be a cant miss prospect in a trade, in the eyes of other teams because he hasnt done much to make himself so. I just dont want to trade him because of what I think he will become.

me*, not man

and should say... "I have been saying since", not I have been since.

It would be quite different if Cub fans said things like (and by the way I dont want to blanket all the Cubs fans, but you know how crazy some of you get with your proposals.), I really love the upside of so and so, it would kill me to trade him. That is how I feel about Gomez. I dont think that other organizations should be jumping in line to trade us a big stud for him, I just dont want to get rid of him. Not the same thing.

Are you guys proposing to each other?

;)

mss4481,
Saying "Brian Roberts' best years was when he was on steroids" is irresponsible and ignorant of the facts.

He took steroids ONCE and last year had the 28th highest VORP of any player (ahead of Derreck Lee).

Please try to not be as accusatory as you are without facts.

basemonkey, I dont think so, Arodsucksatlife is funny, but just not my type. I am more of a themfightnwords type of guy. Maybe zito4cyyoung

:)

I dream a dream...White Sox jump in with Uribe, Crede, ad Egbert for Roberts.

Look at this line up
2b-Roberts ~ Love his play
SS-Cabrera ~ He can move players over
DH-Thome ~ We all know what he can do
1B-Konerko ~ looking to bounce back after '07
RF-Dye ~ Will see pitches in this line up
CF-Swisher ~ Looks good on the south side.
3B-Fields ~ 7th...are you kidding me?
C-Pierzynski ~ Down where he can worry about the young staff.
LF-Quentin/Owens ~ Let them mature to fill future holes after '08 run.

I think that line up can contend in the strong AL Central. Starting rotation is suspect but the back end looks better.

Apparently I need to doll up my posts to be more homoerotically appealing.

How bout, some of the tools these young mets have coming up through the pipeline can make your mouth water.

Who's pitching & who's catching?

For t hose of you that insist in degrading the Cubs' pitching due to Dempster being in the 5 spot are mistaken. Yes, he is getting a TRY OUT but that doesn't mean they are handing it to him. He will fight it out with a handful of others.

mss4481, you can't talk about injuries as if you woulda won if you didn't have them. Can we say "If we woulda had Soriano and Aram healthy all year we woulda whomped the division? No, chances are you would laugh and say that injuries are part of the game and that every team has them.

Yes the Brewers have a talented core, but don't be so quick to judge rookies such as Gallardo and put them over proven success that guys like Lilly have had.

I'm not saying the Cubs will definitely win the division, because no one really knows what will happen, but you can't take your whole team on the upside then analyze the Cubs' guys on the downside.

The only thing this has shown is every fans propensity towards over-valuing their own player and under-valuing others. The truth, in most cases, lies somewhere in between.

Gallagher and Marshall project as more than just a 5th starter. That they weren't on the Cubs is simply because they already had Z and Lilly and Hill ahead of them. Roberts is definitely an above average 2B but he's 30 and only had 3 good years (coming right at most players peak) so you can't expect as much beyond the year or two on his contract. The Orioles aren't going to be winning anything for at least then next two seasons if not longer. To hold on to Roberts simply because you're not getting full value is stupid. Full-value only works if you are trading WHILE supplementing from your minors. Something very few teams can do. It's either contend or rebuild. If you try to do both you'll fail at both. Other teams know the Orioles situation and aren't just going to say, sure you can have Hill for the next 8 years and we'll take Roberts for 2.

The proposed deal would hurt the Cubs in one area but could be considered fair. I like the potential of all the Cubs players but let's not call them junk just yet. Baseball is littered with All-Stars and Superstars (guys like Roberts would be one) who didn't get off the great starts to their career and then something just clicked. Then there are guys who come out blazing only to fade just as quickly.

To the Brewers fan who went position by position. Gallardo is good, but he can just as easily be like Wood or Sheets or Liriano. Ryan Braun was on a tear and won ROY, good for him. What has Bobby Crosby done since his ROY award 4 seasons ago? The same as those 12 AB Ramirez had in the NLDS aren't a true sample of his production, why don't we wait until those guys repeat their success. And to give up on Pie after 170 something AB would be tantamount to lunacy. Thank God the Internet wasn't around when guys like Hank Aaron or Reggie Jackson were coming up. They would've been thrown away after a bad week. Now if he gets 2 or 3 full seasons of opportunities (I'm not talking late-inning defensive replacement/pinch hitting opps) and hasn't shown much then yeah, you can call him a bust.

mss4481

Lilly and Gallardo is very close, and Gallardo is not an ace. Hill to Suppan is obiously Hill. A 3.92 ERA is way better than a 4.62 ERA. Villanueva to Marquis is close. I do think Marquis will be worse this year, but Villanueva is not all that great either. Roberts is clearly better than Weeks, if that trade goes through, and SS is the only position were the Brewers have an edge. The Cubs have 2B and LF. We have more pop and are pitching is about the same.

It just turns out that most #3 starters are really guys who projected to be #1s or #2s when they were prospects. Right now the only 12th Round draft pick to be a regular starter is Joel Piniero. And, of all the 12th round draft picks to played any meaningful time in the majors last season is 11 players.

When you have a prospect openly being projected as a #3 SP by Cubs fans, who are known for their zeal over their farmhands, and sometimes over-zealousness, it is a little disturbing to me.

If they trade Marshall, who will Dempster be up against for the 5th spot? Kevin Hart or Angel Guzman? Hart has a shot, but beyond that, there currently isn't much.

"Right now the only 12th Round draft pick to be a regular starter is Joel Piniero. And, of all the 12th round draft picks to played any meaningful time in the majors last season is 11 players."

I'm not sure what your point is, but drafted in the 23rd round of the 1996 draft, 684 overall Roy Oswalt, 4 picks later Ted Lilly.

I don't think it's necessary to argue with mss4481. This Brewers fan has practically anointed Yovani Gallardo as the second coming of Jesus Christ himself and thinks the Cubs only advantage is a slim one in LF. Ryan Braun is an upgrade over Aramis? The Fat Prince over Lee? Is that guy who wears his sunglasses at night better than Fukudome too? Rickie Weeks? Ha, is he even worth a used oil filter?! I know, all of the Cubs prospects are busts and all of the Brewers's are the real deal, right?
Plus, anyone who thinks the Cards will contend next year is delusional, end of story. No Eckstein or Edmonds, Cesar Izturis at SS, Rick Ankiel's roided up ass in RF? And I think you can count on Carpenter never returning to ace form again after is second TJ surgery. As for their genius manager, even if he manages not to fall asleep loaded at the wheel again and end up in the drunk tank, he's got nothing to manage.

"Is that guy who wears his sunglasses at night better than Fukudome"

who knows? i guarentee that you have never seen him play in real life before. you dont know how good he really will be. all the cubs are thinking hes gonna be a tremendous factor to the team but look at some of the recent asian players. kei igawa? even dicek is not very good compared to what he was hyped up to be. the only great player that i know of out of asia is ichrio.

Obviously my point went right over your head Donny. My point was that mss4481 was seemingly guaranteeing a Brewers victory in the NL central next year and I thought that was a little premature. He went position by position in his posts and only gave the cubs a slight advantage in LF and maybe in the #1 pitcher's spot. And then you went and cherry-picked one statement from my long list of examples that prove that it's too early to say the Brewers are the Tigers of the NL. That list read as a whole shows that the Cubs have some quality to match the Brewers. I wasn't saying Fukudome is a sure thing, but that it's too early to right him off in favor of the baseball juggernaut that is Corey Hart. What say you?

mss4481, your closers best years were when he was a steroid freak and you lost the division by two games. But you never let facts get in the way of your posts.

And the only good ballplayer out of Asia is Ichiro. Assuming you meant out of Japan, I would say Takashi Saito isn't bad. Neither is Hideki Matsui or Hideki Okajima. And Kenji Johjima's been pretty good. If you meant Asia in general, what about Chien Ming Wang? You'd probably be had pressed to find anyone who honestly states Hideo Nomo and Chan Ho Park were busts during their careers. And I think the Red Sox and their fans are happy with what they got from Matsuzaka and I'm pretty sure he'll only get better. And those are just off the top of my head!

This latest update makes a lot more sense. The O's need to get one sure thing like Hill, Pie or Colvin. The other deal was weak.

I'm not sure who of the 3 the cubs would give up ? I can't see Hill going. I could see Pie the most.

Can anyone explain why the Cubs are so hot for Roberts? De Rosa's OBP is nearly as good and they have him. Plus it would seem like Orlando Hudson or Mark Ellis would be available. Neither is a typical lead-off guy, but their OBP's are respectable and their defense is great. And you don't have to deal with Angelos.

Maybe the O's trade for Pie then flip him to Seattle in a Bedard deal FOR NO REASON WHATSOEVER other than me typing it on this blog....kind of like any other trade rumor people quibble on about.

The new Roberts rumors make much more sense. If the Cubs had gotten Roberts for the original 3 players mentioned, it would have been nonsensical move by the Orioles, who are trying to add as much young, high end talent as they can. Gallagher, Marshall, and Cedeno don't really fit that profile. And to all Brewers fans- Seriously, your team didn't win the division last year, they haven't made the playoffs since 1982, and there is no reason to believe this year will be any better for the Crew. Let some of those young guys prove they can stay healthy and produce(and learn how to field the ball, Mr. Braun), before you appoint your team as the division champs.

Agree with you Grizzly, but as a Cubs fan Prince and company still scare the crap out of me.

I honestly think that following the Bartolo Colon Diet will lead to Fielder having a similar health history to Fat Bart. Fielder will be injured often throughout his career.

Pie, Hill, Colvin? If that's the price for Roberts, I hope JH's answer is "F*** THAT!" We don't need a new 2B that badly.

Baltimore is going to have to come down on their asking prices for Roberts and Bedard or they are going to suck for eternity.

I still think everyone is overvaluing roberts. I'm not a cub's fan for the record. Cedeno has good upside as does marshall and gallager hs solid stuff sounds equal to me. The o's soul do this right now cause they are crazy to think they'll get pie and hill.

I kind of see Prince Fielder in the same light as Mo Vaughn. He'll have a couple incredibly good years, a couple decent years, and then his body will pretty much break down on him. Maybe he'll get in shape more and hit 600 homers, but i wouldn't put money on it.

And flatley, the article doesnt say that the O's want all three of Pie, Hill and Colvin. He says that the O's will probably want at least one of them, considering those 3, along with Vitters, are pretty much their four elite young guys.

If I were Hendry, I don't know if this deal is worth it then. It's tough to give up on Pie already considering his defense and speed already are assets, so if he can put it together with the bat he'll be a stud. Hill is already untouchable, as he should be. He's a great #3 starter. The one I would feel most comfortable giving up is probably Tyler Colvin. But if I included Colvin, then the rest of the offer becomes much worse. Maybe Colvin and Gallagher. Maybe they could get it done with quantity though, just like Houston in the Miggy trade. I think MacPhail would think hard about a Gallagher, Marshall, Cedeno, Murton offer.

The Orioles can keep Roberts and pay a $7 million dollar second baseman to leadoff for a team that will battle for last place. They'd be lucky to get two good young arms and an athletic SS for Roberts. If they think a team is going to give them an elite prospect they're kidding themselves. The Cubs will contend with or without Roberts. They don't need this deal. Keep him Orioles, it'll be like putting expensive lipstick on a pig.

"WGN Radio's Dave Kaplan checked in on this situation on his blog. He has "great sources" saying the price for Roberts is much higher than was previously reported. The Orioles want Rich Hill, Felix Pie, or Tyler Colvin. "

DING,DING,DING, we have a winner. Good lord all this talk Roberts for a steaming pile of.....mediocrity, was getting out of control. None of the proposed packages ( i.e Marshall, Cedeno,Gallagher,Murton)has one difference maker in it. Someone of high value ( i.e. Pie,Hill,Colvin) is gonna have to go for this thing to get done. A 5th starter ( and Im not even sure Marshall is that in the AL East), a 4th outfielder(Murton), a utility infielder( Cedeno) and a B prospect ( Gallagher)for an impact leadoff guy isnt gonna cut it.

Roberts isn't worth any of those three.

I think we need to stop thinking that the Cubs can throw in Cedeno and Murton to round out a every deal in order to keep their better prospects. Having Cedeno and/or Murton is actually pretty solid bench depth, but no team out there is going to sell one of their best players for any combination of your bench.

Cedeno + Murton != Hill/Pie/Colvin/Vitters/Gallagher/Marshall/Marmol/etc

Face it, Cubs fans, I know it hurts but to get a player you'll actually want to watch play, you're probably going to have to give up a player you like also. I'm not necessarily saying that Roberts is worth Hill, Pie, Colvin, or any other player; I am just trying to throw some reason into the way to look at trades.

If I wanted to trade for your expensive gold watch, no amount of thrift store watches I offer is going to convince you to give it up.

Please. Gallagher and Marshall would be in the middle of the Orioles rotation by opening day. It's not even a future deal for them. Cedeno would be your starting SS or 2b. Have you looked at your roster? It's already filled with Cub rejects. Gallagher is much better than you think he is. All these scout wannabes on the board have never seen him pitch. Anyone who thinks Gallagher is a "fringe" prospect knows a lot less about baseball than he thinks he does. He's not a future 3rd starter. He'd be the Orioles 3rd starter TODAY. A lot of Cub fans wouldn't include him in the deal if it were up to them. The Orioles will regret not making this deal.

Sean Gallagher is 21 years old and has very similar minor league numbers across the board with Indians prospect Adam Miller...who was mentioned in possible trades for Miguel Cabrera and Delmon Young. Gallagher is a very very valuable trading chip.

Dave Kaplan is the man who said yesterday, if completely omitting the steroids issue, Mark McGwire still should not be in the Hall of Fame because all he did was hit homeruns.

Basemonkey, I think that you're selling those four guys short. When did Brian Roberts suddenly become a star? The guy has topped an .800 OPS just twice in his seven years. Yeah he's a really good lefty leadoff guy, but he'll really not all that special. He's not worth a top prospect, unless its in a straight up deal. I think that a Murton, Marshall, Gallagher, Cedeno offer seems fair. Marshall has the potential to be a quality 3 starter, Marshall should be a decent 5, Cedeno has a shot to be at least decent and the O's don't have much else in terms of SS options, and Murton has good plate patience, decent power and would be a decent cheap option for a rebuilding team, which Baltimore should be. I think thats a pretty decent amount of stuff for a second tier second baseman.

The only way we should give up Pie is in a 1 for 1 trade. If they dont do that, substitute Colvin for Marshall and take Cedeno out. No way we trade Hill for him.

I have to agree that the latest information makes much more sense.

With the exception of Gallagher, the Cubs were dealing spare parts for Roberts.

Pie has struggled, but at least he has a chance to be very good.

I don't think Roberts is an expensive gold watch. His production skyrocketed after steroid use -- and anyone who believes he used it "once" is naive. It was a good PR move on his part to admit to a lesser offense. It was a plea bargain of sorts. Anyway, there's the risk of him returning to something closer to his pre-steroid production levels. There's also the risk that, because of the steroids, his body will begin to break down early, especially for a guy who plays a demanding positon and puts a lot of wear and tear on his body stealing bases. The Cubs assume a a fair amount of risk obtaining Roberts. So it doesn't make sense for them to pay a premium like Pie, Hill or even Colvin. Other GM's will feel the same way. There won't be an offer that tops the Cubs.

Boy basemonkey, that is some folksy wisdom you got there. Could have sworn that came from the mouth a this guy that wears armbands and chokes on toothpicks, dude. Roberts is a solid ballplayer, but he's by no means made of gold. I like him, but he's not worth the farm. Besides, the ballplayers offered aren't marginal prospects. They need a new SS to get B-12 shots in his ass and they need a pitching and Marshall and Gallagher are both reliable ballplayers. In fact, I think both pitchers plus Cedeno are probably too much to let go. I'd rather see Murton who's a solid BA and OBP player and with consistent playing time will hit 20 homers from LF. This deal is similar to the Juan Pierre for Pinto/Nolasco/Mitre deal from 2006 except that Roberts knows how to play ball and won't piss me off on a daily basis.

crunchy1, although I think you're analysis of Roberts is a bit extreme, you might have something there. It's like there are a bunch of Angelos' here. Everyone here seems to love Roberts. And overvalue him. I think Roberts is more of a silver watch.

Hey didn't the cubs get swept last year in the playoffs ? Hmmmm, i think that was them.

Maybe, just maybe they think that they need to do something like this to contend. It makes the team better to have a quality leadoff hitter, instead of some B prospects who wont contribute -- and makes the team a whole lot better not having Soriano in the leadoff spot launching solo bombs instead of down in the order pounding the larger sloberknockers.

It's always funny hearing cubs fans critize other fans for overvaluing their guys, but honestly the Cubs will be huge next year if they get Roberts.

You Cubs fans are one in the same... Halarious stuff... At least you make some of us laugh... Brian Roberts is one of the best lead off men in baseball... He has been nothing but stellar for going on half a decade and you guys are comparing him to 'laugh' Juan Pierre... What a riot.... .290 12 57 and 50 swipes last season and he has been doing it for 4 seasons... As far as a Rich Hill swap, that's about right.... If i'm Angelos I don't balk... I wait until another team comes knocking on my door the way the Astros came for Tejada.... Don't get lowballed...

If that criticism is directed towards me BaseBallz, I'd like to clarify that I want Roberts on the Cubs in 2008 and probably beyond. I think however that the Orioles are overvaluing their own team. It's probably just posturing though and they'll take the original deal reported here in the end. All I said was that I thought the two pitchers were too much to include in this deal and I'd rather see Murton in place of one of them, but I'd pull the trigger on either deal.
And the only thing I meant in the comparison to the Pierre deal was that I thought bringing in a "real" leadoff hitter after years of Corey Patterson leading off was a good idea, but giving up 3 pitchers was too much to get the deal done.

Obviously your literacy is questionable, pills.

sorry, allabouthephils literacy is in question

Look. forgive my analogy. I am not saying Roberts is all that. I am not endorsing any particular Cubs player for Roberts. I made NO TRADE PROPOSALS whatsoever. I am just speaking out against Murton and Cedeno. If the Os get a package of B prospects then fine; I am just speaking out against hearing quantity trade proposals that include Murton and Cedeno. It's not a knock on those guys at all since they probably bring a lot of gutsy value to your team but, you guys know, and we know it too. There is a reason why nearly every Cubs fan here is so quickly willing to part with Murton AND Cedeno to get Roberts.

Saying that Gallagher would be the Orioles instant #3 starter is nonsense and speaks of ignorance. He wouldn't supplant Bedard, Guthrie, Loewen, or Cabrera. Gallagher would be in the mix between 4 other guys for the 5th spot. Right now it probably would go towards Troy Patton (acquired from the Tejada trade) due to age/experience. I am not saying they are all finished products by any means.

Gallagher has done well for himself, and he has been a steal for the Cubs from Day 1. To his credit. But, I look at him and see a Bronson Arroyo type of pitcher. I happen to think Bronson is a solid pitcher, but they had similar profiles on the fastball and secondary stuff. Arroyo has a better projectable body so he would have the advantage to maintain it longterm. But you also have to understand that the Orioles' division is one that makes everyone who isn't elite into average or below average guys. When Arroyo was pitching in the AL EAST he was notching 4.50+ ERAs and flatout hammered. I can easily see Gallagher coming here and getting hammered by the Yanks, BoSox, Jays, and even the DRays. It's not a knock on Gallagher. It's just that RHPs with average fastballs tend to have a rough time in this division.

I'm sorry if this hurts your feelings. If you want to come to the AL EAST, by all means do so. This is a division where you can win 94 games and get only 2nd place. And, a division where 85 wins every season garuantees 3rd or 4th place every season.

"You Cubs fans are one in the same... Halarious stuff... At least you make some of us laugh... Brian Roberts is one of the best lead off men in baseball... He has been nothing but stellar for going on half a decade and you guys are comparing him to 'laugh' Juan Pierre... What a riot.... .290 12 57 and 50 swipes last season and he has been doing it for 4 seasons."

Uhh I guess you're a Cubs fan then. Brian Roberts never stole more than 36 bases in a season before 2007, has only posted a .290 BA or a .800 OPS twice in his seven years, and has only hit 10+ HR three times. You should probably study up before bashing Cubs fans.

There are many dumb Cubs fans. But then again there are many dumb fans in general, like you for example. Not only that but your grammar is fairly embarrassing. What is your motivation for typing like an idiot.

Hey J-Money, no i wasn't directing anything your way.

Im just frustrated with teams that are soooo close to being dominant, or at least seriously contending, only to have them let guys who are not going to make their team better next year screw up a deal that will put the team over the top.

Sure the price for Roberts may be too high, but he WILL make the Cubs better. A whole lot better then the Cubs will be if they keep those prospects. If people feel raw about losing those prospects, wait until Roberts leads the team to the Post season and the Cubs rock the $hit outta October baseball.

Thats all im saying, nothing but love J-money !

For what it's worth, it is looking more and more like the Orioles are going to keep both Bedard and Roberts in order to trade them at the July 31 deadline. So it might be almost time to consider the Roberts rumors to be dead.

Today MacPhail has been quoted by saying that "July 31" is the real deadline to look out for.

Sooo true Basemonkey, thats why Josh Towers is probably going to do quite well for himself with the Rockies this year.

Its a division were all you need is a great fastball to succed. Just look at Mariano Rivera, Pettite, Halliday, Burnett, Beckett, etc: cut fastball all over your face. I think because of pitchers like that, hitters in the AL east will light up anyone who shows them a sub-par fastball.

The Orioles should really try for Pie, but i really hope they just get some common sense and trade Roberts since he's an obvious luxory for them.

forlife61 hit the nail on the head (posted about 7:30)

And for everyone saying Roberts is a "2nd tier" 2B. Can someone please give me an educated answer as to why Roberts is thought of as 2nd tier?

I rather see the Cubs trade Sean Gallagher, Sean Marhsall, and maybe even Cedeno for a better shortstop then pick up Roberts because it seems like we won't get him. Cedeno tore it up in AAA. The only down fall with Cedeno is that he is a big baby when things don't go his way. If he pops out and strikes out he will go back in the dug out and throw a temper.

I do like me some shirtless, Cubs fan manlove BaseBallz. Nothing gay about that, right?

I agree about the Murton/Cedeno thing. There are some of us Cub fans who realize they are secondary players on a good team. They're throw ins -- not a center piece to a deal. Gallagher, though, is a different story. The Cubs could use him as a 4th starter and they wouldn't lose much this year. So it isn't "ridiculous"
he could be a 3rd starter on the Orioles, who are admittedly weak on pitching. It isn't hard to imagine he'd pitch better than Cabrera or Guthrie (average stuff) for that matter. As for Marshall, he touches 90 mph regularly, above average for a lefty and he has a plus curveball, not quite like Hill's but better than major league average. There are guys with less than overwhelming stuff right now in the AL East who win games. Mussina did it for years, Wang's stuff isn't special either. Pettite did better for the Yanks than he did for Houston -- so you can't give me that AL East elitist garbage. These guys aren't fringy - they're not top shelf either but they would both make your staff. Roberts just isn't a gimme, he comes with his own question marks. If he were guaranteed to play the way he did last year for a couple years, yeah, I'd give up Colvin. But there's a legitimate risk we could be trading for the 2001-2002 version of Roberts.

Scribbletone, I may be a little extreme on Roberts but so was the criticism of the Cubs' pitchers. There's concerns on both sides. I don't blame the Cubs for not wanting to give up more for Roberts and I don't blame the O's for trying to get a high level prospect for an all-star. McPhail wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't. I don't think Roberts is worth the risk though- not for Hill, who's an established 3rd starter on a playoff team and not for Pie who's a big part of what the Cubs are trying to do this year. The reasonable compromise is to work Colvin into the deal but take Gallagher or Marshall off the table. It's a big risk for the Cubs because Colvin is a Steve Finley/Shawn Green type player. But sometimes you overpay when you have a chance to win it. You get Adam Jones in a Bedard deal and suddenly you have an athletic, high potential OF of Markakis, Jones and Colvin. It could be the best OF in the division by the time the Orioles finish rebuilding.

Since when is the value of the players dependent on the team they are going to? How many people have said that Marshall and Gallagher are mediocre prospects BUT on the Orioles they would go right into their starting rotation.

That logic is so seriously flawed I don't know how to even respond.

I could round up some guys on my block and we could crack the Orioles starting rotation. That doesn't mean that we are good - it just means that the O's are horrid. The O's are looking for the best talent available - not just people who are upgrades over their current pathetic lineup.

The statement that "You have to give up talent to get talent" doesn't seem to apply to Cubs fans.

Cedeno is a backup infielder - despite the fact that he has 130 games in the minors where he did extremely well. Unfortunately, his major league production has been awful. And despite parts of two seasons with a 900+ OPS in AAA - his minor league average OPS is just 724. Not inspiring.

Then you have two pitching prospects where one tops out as a 3 in some reports (although a 4/5 in most others) while the other is a 5 at best. (BTW - I loved an early comment that described Marshall as a solid #5 - there is no such thing - if one is solid they are not a #5).

None of the players are top flight prospects. Roberts will return at least one bona fide prospect. A guy capable of stealing 40+ bases, hitting 15HR's and walking 90 times is worth something.

You usually don't ask much from the #5 pitcher in your rotation. All a coach wants is for that pitcher to take the ball every fifth day and give him 5-6 innings and keep the team in the game. That's the definition of a solid 5th starter. You're welcome

I'm sorry, but I would only include one of Pie or Colvin if it was to get Bedard too. How about Gallagher, Murton, Cedeno, and Pie? Throw in Marshall, too. That's plenty for both Roberts and Bedard. MacPhail wants too much for a guy that has had a few decent years with a lot of steals.

I read Phil Rogers' report today, and he said if they get Roberts that they'll bat D-Lee sixth. Is he on the same planet that we're on? That was one of the stupidest things I have ever heard.

Whatever they do, I wouldn't trade Hill for anything (even Bedard straight up) or Colvin. You just don't throw away your #1 pick two years ago for someone like Roberts, especially when we already have a good 2B-man.

MUSSINA: Sorry, Crunchy, but you're showing what little you know of these pitchers you are talking about. Mussina was a bonafide legit #1 pitcher for much of his career. Sort of like a Blyleven-type borderline HOF type of pitcher. Moose in his prime had 5 plus plus pitches with a mid 90s fastball and excellent command. He didn't overwhelm hitters but he confused them to hell. There is no one in the big leagues today like he was.

WANG: As far as Wang, he has a pretty strong sinkerball with consistent groundball rates. Perhaps a Kevin Brown during his good days before injuries. Not as nasty as the power sinker game as Beckett but it's competitive with it.

GUTHERIE: His stuff isn't average at all. He was the odd man out in Cleveland between nationally hyped Adam Miller-esque level of prospects there. He never really got a legit shot to stay in the rotation between him, Carmona, CC, Adam Miller, and the vets. Though he is a 1st rounder with no diminishment of stuff. He was sidetracked a bit and fell below the radar because he took a two year hiatus from baseball for a Mormon mission. Last year he was perhaps the strongest rookie pitcher in the big leagues sporting a 97-98 mph late tailing fastball and late breaker slider. He had an ERA in the 1.00s thru his 14th start with exquisite command before he got shut down. If that's average then more power to ya.

OTHER GUYS: I will agree with you on Daniel Cabrera. His command can be hard to sit through. Another elite type prospect the Orioles have is Adam Loewen. He was a 1st rounder who went down to injury last year but he's been in the nat'l prospect circles for the last 3 years, and, anyone who follows prospects religiously knows of the kid (in/out sinking moving 90-94 mph FB, plus plus power curve). With him he will strikeout everyone but his command is still a work in progress. There is also the Astros top pitching prospect, Troy Patton. And, throw into the mix Garrett Olson, Radhammes Liz, Hayden Penn. All of these guys mentioned has top of the rotation potential to varying degrees. And, it is easy to say that they all have better projections than Gallagher.

Marshall is pretty solid and I'd love to see him work into the mix, but your earlier comment about the Orioles being thin at pitching is far from the truth. The only reason why the Orioles are considering trading Bedard is not only because we need to rebuild but we have starting pitching. It's all works-in-progress but we do have a ton of high potential arms.

Wow talk about regurgitation.... You say people don't know about pitchers.... All you did was spit up what you heard on baseball tonight..... Good job....