Cubs' Talks For Roberts Reach Impasse

According to Ken Rosenthal, the Cubs are unlikely to acquire second baseman Brian Roberts prior to the start of the season.  Jim Hendry and Andy MacPhail apparently could not find a match for the players involved.  The Cubs have also been scouting the Nationals; Felipe Lopez may be Plan B.  Shortstop is the main position where the Cubs are questionable.

It sounds like Hendry's priority may now be finding outfield help, with Reed Johnson atop his list.  The Cubs don't want to enter the season without a backup plan for Felix Pie.

Comments

[Joelcards]

man i was really hoping the cubs would trade more prospects. the cubs are so poorly ran i really thought this was going down, like a five for one. oh well. at least there wont be any more posts on this......i hope

[maximumpotential]

Lopez makes more sense to me since he can play short.

[Tim Dierkes]

I'm sure your long national nightmare will continue...

[CubFanForLife]

Once again the Cubs fail to make a move that could really put them over the top in the NL. I don't want to completely jump on Hendry without hearing what MacPhail wanted in return, because you never know if it was completely unreasonable, but I really, really hope they can work something out for him in the coming weeks. It doesn't need to be by opening day, but sometime! Robert s could turn the Cubs from "Will probably make the playoffs" to "Legit pennant contender".

[msk86]

i wouldn't consider this an impasse. there has been no "progress" at all from what we've heard. nobody agreed on anybody. this was just a big waste of everybody's time.

[juan]

I was hoping to see robert in the Cubs line up

[DeaconD:CubsFan]

Nice Going Jim Good Luck Keeping Your Job

[jneely77]

Reached and impasse?? These negotiations have been one giant impasse. But I'm glad they're looking at Lopez. Nothing like a .245 average and triple digit strikeouts to really catapult a team to elite status.

[uww1]

Tomorow you will read "REPORTS SAY CUBS AND O'S CLOSE TO DEAL FOR ROBERTS" This is just like a very bad roller coaster

[CubFanForLife]

I hear you jneely...Felipe Lopez? Seriously? No thanks, I'll keep DeRosa at second, thank you very much. If they go out and get Lopez and try and pass it off as some kind of a win for the team I'll be sick to my stomach. Typical Cubs, going for the low-priced, mediocre option when they could have the best.

[Tim Dierkes]

Rosenthal called it an impasse...

[crunchy1]

Good for Hendry! It's nice to see him show restraint when it was obvious the Orioles were trying to make the Cubs overpay to acquire Roberts. I'm glad he sees the bigger picture here. I wanted this deal early on but soured later when the asking price became ridiculous. Roberts isn't going to make the Cubs into pennant contenders. They ARE pennant contenders and Roberts over DeRosa wasn't going to make a huge difference over the course of a season -- at least not a big enough difference to unload top prospects. I think Hendry showed me something this winter...he didn't chicken out and acquire inferior RF'ers when the Fukudome sweepstakes dragged on, he told the Rangers "take it or leave it" when they tried to steal a pitching prospect and Murton for a schlep like Marlon Byrd, and now he didn't give up 5 young players to upgrade second base. There are other ways to shore up the Cubs for the long season. The pitching depth they saved by keeping Gallagher, Marshall and Ceda may prove to be more valuable over a 162 game season then the occasional game or two that Roberts might win for the Cubs with his legs.

[TheGrinch]

LOPEZ IS NOT AN UPGRADE OVER THERIOT. Here's more garbage notes from spring training:

1) First, we pick Dempster over Lieber for the rotation. Dempster will quickly show why that was a bad decision.

2) We are continuing to try and trade Murton straight up for Byrd (hitting .180 this spring I might add).

3) They keep saying that Les Walrond is in the mix to be the left hander out of the bullpen. Pignatiello hasn't allowed a run all spring and has held runners to a .105 average. What's to think over?

This team gets dumber and dumber every day. Someone needs to call up Hendry and figure out what he and his coaching staff are thinking.

[crunchy1]

Grinch, don't you think Piniella decided on the rotation? And Les Walrond isn't going to win that spot. That last spot is going to Pignatello or Sean Marshall.

But I agree about Lopez. I don't care how fast he is or that he has more power than Theriot, the Cubs don't need any more low baseball IQ players that hurt the team beyond the stat sheet. We've already gotten rid of Pagan, Jones and Ohman...and Cedeno should be next. I'm hoping the Lopez thing is a false rumor. Would we seriously start a guy that the Nationals are giving up on? Give me a break.

[Devlsh]

Lopez won't solve anything, and given Bowden's history of screwing over teams, it's a deal the Cubs are likely to regret in more ways than one.

[INOK]

Crunchy is right. Hendry didn't bend over for anyone this offseason. It's kinda nice to see. We do not need Roberts and everyone that said we were going to over pay was flat out WRONG. Now Derosa can relax! The person who got hurt the most in this situation is Brian Roberts. He made it clear receintly he wanted out. Not becaues he hates baltamore he just doesn't want to be part of a rebuilding team.

By the way, it's very easy to pick out the younger cub fans because they are the ones pounding their fists on the floor throwing a tantrum. Stop it! You sound foolish.

[bjsguess]

Keep telling yourself that Roberts is only a slight upgrade of DeRosa. If it helps you sleep at night then good.

[jballgame]

I'd like to see us add Giles if Colorado cuts him. He is a Roberts-like player who probably won't do as well as Roberts, but he can lead off, run and play 2B and he doesn't cost us 4 prospects.

There's no real downside to see if he can get back to what he was, and he's having a great spring.

[scribbletone]

I have a question for those Cub fans who are bashing Hendry for not getting Roberts:

Would you give up Sean Gallagher, Jose Ceda, Donnie Veal and Ronny Cedeno for him?

Or I could rephrase that:

Would you give up your three best pitching prospects for him?

It appears that the previously stated trade is what MacPhail was going for. Honestly, that would be a terrible deal for Chicago. Gallagher looks like he'll be a good 3 starter, and Ceda could be a stud closer. Even though Roberts would definately give the fanbase and the team more confidence, you gotta admit that this team really is a pennant contender as is. They have a rotation six deep with acceptable starters in the NL, three of which could be really good (Big Z, Hill, Lilly). They have a talented and deep bullpen. They have a pretty damn good lineup as it as, despite the lack of OBP at the top of the order. I mean just look at the 2006 St. Louis Cardinals, the Cubs gotta be at least equally as good as they were.

At this point it appears as though the Cubs were close to getting ripped off by MacPhail, and I think it was a good call to hold off by Hendry. Now, if he goes and gets Lopez and puts him in the leadoff spot, then suddenly the whole situation becomes worse, because Derosa is better htan Lopez and Lopez doesnt belong in the leadoff spot.

At this point I really don't have any massive complaints with the Cubs' management or Piniella. Until they make some boneheaded acquisition or something I think this team is headed in a pretty good direction.

[uww1]

Could the cubs trade for a good pitcher instead of Roberts? Who is available? Will Hanley Ramirez be available at the Trade deadline? Veal/Gallagher/Ceda/Colvin/Cedeno would have to look pretty good for the Marlins instead of paying him a ton of money. Just a thought on what else we could do, IMO.

[CUBBIES2008]

Everyone needs to relax.They said the deal is not going to get done,they said are not going to aquire him be for the season. Plus who said this? Ken Rosenthal? I remember when he said Cubs were going to get Roberts the next week a couple weeks ago. Now look at where were at. It'll get done but I still think it goes down to the last day of Spring Training.

[crunchy1]

Thus quoteth Baseball Prospectus, "If the Cubs bring in a Brian Roberts-type and bump DeRosa into a utility role, the gains will be LESS than they might appear at first glance." In a later article in the Trib, they calculated that Roberts might be worth 2-3 wins for the Cubs ( I don't really know how they do that but I'll roll with it). Anyway, if the Orioles were going to completely strip us of our pitching depth, leaving the Cubs to start the Les Warlond's of the world at the first sign of injury...THAT's when I would lose sleep. I like the idea of keeping Gallagher, Marshall, Ceda, Veal, etc. over a long season. Having DeRosa at second won't make me lose any sleep at all. In fact, I think I'll sleep quite soundly tonight knowing that our GM isn't McPhail's monkey.

[Aduncaroo]

I completely agree that Hendry has impressed this offseason. He didn't pay more than about 3 other teams were trying to when aquiring Fukudome, and he isn't willing to sell the farm for Roberts. I would have given them 2 of those 3 pitching prospects, with Cedeno at the end. However, I think its time that Hendry said take it or leave it, and it looks like that might have happened. You have to draw the line somewhere, even if it is your old boss. People saying "same old Cubs"? Really? No. These Cubs and this front office is making a commitment to be smarter than they used to be. Roberts is good, he isn't great. If Theriot keeps his numbers from last year minus a September slump, he is more than fine to lead off. Soriano will have more RBI opportunities, and the middle of this order will flat out produce. They no longer have a 79OPS+(!) catcher, and they have gold glove defense all over the outfield with cannons. Their defense was one of the better in the NL last year, and should be even better this year, making the rotation better. They had the 2nd best rotation in the NL last year, so I'm not to worried because Lieber is a great replacement if Dempster or Marquis should fail. Roberts would have been nice, but I'm also a fan of having a young guy like Gallagher, who can anchor the back end of this rotation for years and cheap along with it. And here is the kicker for me:

Eric Patterson

I understand many don't think he is that great, and thats fine. But to me, he has shown more than enough to prove that if you want a lefty bat in the lineup, you can put him at 2nd base and use Derosa as the super sub you wanted anyway. Patterson may not play SS, but I think he fills all these needs, he can take a walk, and is very fast. I really believe that he could be our leadoff guy by 09.

[scribbletone]

I agree with nearly everything aduncaroo said, outside of the stuff about E-Pat. I don't have enough faith in him to start him at second in a year like this where we are contending. But if you do it, do it earlier rather than later, because if he sucks down the stretch then that could be detrimental.

And also, to the Hanley Ramirez comment, if he becomes available he's going to Boston or New York or Los Angeles. The Yanks would put him in center and the Red Sox need a long term shortstop and middle of the order bat after Manny Ramirez leaves. I think that Florida would prefer a Hughes/Jackson/Marquez offer or a Lester/Kalish/Lowrie/Masterson offer over nearly any Cubs offer except one: Vitters/Gallagher/Veal/Ceda/Colvin and that essentially would ruin the Cubs' farm system.

[milehigh78]

I F@#%&in' knew it!!! I was one of the most vocal people on this site with regard to the Roberts deal, but I said it a week or two ago: this thing is DEAD!

I know all the Cubs fans are going to come on and talk about how it's all McPhail's fault and how McFail drags his feet all the time and yada, yada, yada, but it takes two to tango, and the wind has been blowin' this way for a while. Want to blame McPhail? Go ahead. I'll be blaming both of them. This thing made too much sense for both clubs not to happen, but there were inherent problems right from the jump.

One of the big, blameless reasons that I believe this thing fell apart is the current state of the Cubs' farm system. While not a 'bad' system- somewhere in the middle according to BA- its real strength seems to be in terms of depth, (rather than, say, Cincy's top-heavy system), which doesn't really help with trading (at least a trade of this magnitude). Deserved or not (I really don't want to get into that debate again), the O's were forthright from the get go; telling Hendry and the Cubs that they wanted high ceiling talent in exchange for Roberts. They cited names like Pie, Colvin, and Ceda. For his part, Hendry said all were 'untouchable.' The only real surprise was that- knowing this- they kept dancing for so long before finally going their separate ways (again, the likely reason being that IT MAKES SO MUCH FRIGGIN' SENSE!!!) Back and forth they went, the O's still hoping Hendry would relent on a top name; the Cubs unyielding...steadfast in their own hope that McPhail might accept something less. Simultaneously, all of us on this site (those who regularly visited the Roberts threads at least), went back and forth, ourselves; squabbling over the various possibilities. I was hardly alone among O's fans when I stated my opinion that a Roberts deal would NOT happen without one of the big guns- Pie (who no one thought was going anywhere), Colvin, or Ceda. Some of the Cubs fans argued that it shouldn't 'cost' so much; that various other combinations might work. The flaw in their logic being that a deal was definite; that it was a question of 'who,'...not 'IF.'

Here and not in some final tally of names exchanged, is where we can unenthusiastically say, 'I told you so.'

Of course, Cubs fans are going to say the Orioles were greedy, while Orioles fans are going to say the Cubs were being stingy. It doesn't matter. The end result is the same. Personally, I genuinely believed whatever price (obviously within reason) the O's asked, it would've been worth it for Chicago. I really think the difference would be that great (IMHO). Looks like we'll never know...or at least, not until mid-season. Still...unless the Cubs get out to a slow start (which I don't consider to be particularly likely, judging from their lineup and division), I think this thing is done.

Say the Cubs come out strong. Then the PERCEPTION becomes, 'we don't need Roberts,' and all that jazz. To some extent it may even be true, but in the heat of the moment, a lot is forgotten and the late season implications are lost. Hendry can't justify RAISING his offer in that case. And, in the end, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy so seemingly familiar: late in the year or in the playoffs, something happens and it's 101 years...and the talk begins anew... "If only we'd had Roberts," or just "I wonder what would've happened, had Roberts been on the team." The papers and their columnists jump all over the question, fair or not (I only bring up fairness, because it's quite possible, in such a scenario, DeRosa plays awesome and it has nothing to do with 2B), because that's what they do. And then next winter it's the same s$&* all over again- Hendry and McPhail in a test of wills, arguing over value. Stupid.

Like I said, though...it was inevitable. Honestly, with any prospect, there's going to be some questions, but the Cubs' kids seem that much more polarizing. Whether the result of hype or just a strange coincidence, it's really quite remarkable how all of the Cubs minor leaguers seem to inspire strongly divisive opinions. I can find one source willing to bet Tyler Colvin is going to be a star while another characterizes him as a fourth outfielder! Donald Veal is another great example of the gap that almost certainly existed in terms of perceived value. The O's probably looked at him as an intriguing little pot-sweetener, while the Cubs- I'd wager- considered him a key component; one of the real centerpieces (with Gallagher). Cedeno and Patterson and even (to a lesser, more normal degree) Ceda... All come with big question marks. This, as much as anything, (I'm guessing) played a big part in how difficult these dealings were. How do you make a deal when one side thinks they're giving one thing and the other sees it as something entirely different?

Gallagher, Colvin, Veal, Patterson... They're among the top names in the system, yet there are issues with each. Gallagher's upside, Veal's health and ability to bounce back (after a dreadful '07), Colvin's BB:K ratio... Not quite what you want to hear when discussing a team's Top prospects. Still, they WERE Top 100 guys (Veal wasn't top 100 but got a few votes), so...

There is no right or wrong. Just conflict leading to a dead end. The Cubs wouldn't give up a greater talent like Ceda...or even Colvin...and Vitters, Donaldson, and Thomas were out (as '07 DPs). What then do you have?

Maybe the rumors were true... Maybe it's the Tim Wilken Catch-22. I don't know, but if the Cubs believed they could get Roberts for what was left over from Wilken's predecessor's tenure...well...here we are. All in all, a very unsatisfying end to what has been a maddening process.

[Aduncaroo]

scribble,

You are exactly right, that is the kind of trade that it would take to get Hanley. Not to mention the 20 mil you are going to have to pay him for the next 10 years...

I'm not saying start EPat. I'm saying you could in 09. This year you can spot start him when Derosa needs to play 3rd, SS, or OF. EPat can play some every outfield position in a pinch and 2nd as well. I think he could be average, I've been watching him very closely this year. Small sample size for sure, but he hasn't done anything that says he can't be just fine out there. Anyway, I think Derosa earned the job last year...you gotta give it to him. Not to mention his blast today...he sent a statement right over the outfield wall today.

Again, not saying hand EPat the job right now, or even this year...but he has some very good offensive potential if he can play 2nd.

[touchmymonkey]

I'm not sure how much Cubs wanting roberts is because he leads off and how much is because they are more comfortable with DeRosa as a supersub. Derosa can get 450 AB covering for ARam, Theriot, the 2B, Fukudome, and in a pinch Sori or Pie ( I know he can cover 1B as well but Ward can cover that )- and thats without injury to anyone. If its leadoff they are concerned with throw a few bucks at giles and give it a whirl - if it doesn't pan outno biggie. If its making DeRosa supersub then they can get Hudson or perhaps Ellis- both solid and both considerably cheaper prospectwise for the cubs. My preference is Hudson. Gallegher/Patterson/Pignatello and maybe Fuld for 1 yr of Hudson seems excessively fair. Cubs hold onto Veal and Marshall for insurance against injuries and have a nice lineup ( albeit for possibly only 1 yr )
Theriot - ss
Sori - lf
Lee- 1b
Aram-3b
Fukudome - rf
Hudson - 2b
Soto - c
Pie- cf

[XD23]

Woohoo! We are keeping B.Roberts. I was getting annoyed we were going to get the Cubs leftovers.

But Good Luck Cubs and their fans. Hope your 'future' is worth another year of disappointment. I mentioned that Soriano should not lead off because of his crappy OB% so now ya have another guy with only 1 month last year of a OB% over .350.

Also they had the 2nd best ERA last year. I doubt it will be the same this upcoming year.

[milehigh78]

Crunch-

Ugh! Baseball Prospectus?! Thought we already went over that. Anyway, I agree that Brian Roberts is the real loser in this non-deal. Poor guy. At this point, I'm not going to fight with Cubs fans over whether or not or by how much, Roberts is better than DeRosa. The beauty of this is that now we're going to find out.

Crunch and INOK and Adun are happy with DeRosa and glad Hendry decided to value non-elite prospects- screw it, let's just say a hypothetical tommorow- over today and this year. All I can say is...good luck. I mean it. I'll be rooting for y'all. But I'll conclude with this...

...Be careful what you wish for.

[mmontice]

XD23,

If this is the route comments are going to go, then let me add that the Orioles might lose 100 games this year. If keeping Roberts in a year where you lose 100 games and don't gain any value for the future is what you wanted, then all is well.

I said this on one of the 40 some odd Roberts posts earlier, but I do think the Orioles really did lose leverage the longer they let this play out.

Not to sound cliched, but they really should have struck while the iron was hot.

[crunchy1]

I hope this is over. Brian Roberts had become the most overvalued of the offseason. The idea that he would command 2-3 top 100 type prospects was insane. Let McPhail go to Cleveland, the White Sox and see what they have to offer. He'll probably wind up with nothing but draft picks, which is what he deserves. Roberts isn't the person that's going to put the Cubs over the top...to put it into perspective: Would he have made a difference had he been starting at second for the Cubs against Arizona? Of course not! Had the pitching come through and Soriano, Lee and Ramirez hit...could the Cubs have made it to the WS? Probably. The Cubs may not win it all again, but it won't be because they don't have Brian Roberts. That's laughable.
I think the pitching depth may prove to be more useful than an upgrade at a position where the Cubs are already pretty solid.

[Win1forRonny]

XD,

what are you talking about "left overs"? most the guys mentioned, including Ceda, Gallegher, and Veal are prospects rather than useless has beens.

anyways, i'd have liked this to go through but i think MacPhail was asking too much... the saying "you can never have too much pitching" is over-used for a reason... b/c its true.

plus, i'm really intrigued with how patterson has performed and matured and I can invision him as out every day 2b next season or even later on this season. he's a lefty at bat with some speed and he's already in house.

go cubs!

[crunchy1]

I'll say this: IF Gallagher, Ceda and Marshall don't help the Cubs win games this year AND IF Roberts has a much better year than DeRosa, And IF Theriot stinks it up at the leadoff spot, AND IF the Cubs, because of all this, lose out to the Brewers by a game or two, then and ONLY then will I say that the Roberts deal would have made a difference. There's a lot of IF's involved. Let's keep this in perspective.

[crunchy1]

XD23, "Leftovers" is what Baltimore got from the Astros for Tejada. Leftovers and a sore-shouldered top 100 prospect. The players they would have gotten from the Cubs would have gone much further toward Baltimore's rebuilding efforts than the "leftovers" they got from the Astros. No amount of post trade PR by McPhail to the Baltimore media is going to change that.

[studio179]

Excellent! Roberts would have been good. I, too, am glad Jim did not give up the farm though. O's fans should be happy as well. They keep the face of their franchise for at least a little longer.

I still have concerns over Reed's back in cold weather, but it looks like Jim might try along with a few other GMs.

[Bleacher_Buddha]

Brian Roberts is the loser in all of this. At best he gets traded to another team, one with a shot at the playoffs. At worst he is stuck on a rebuilding team for 2 years so the O's can collect their 2 draft picks. I am very impressed with how he has handled this. I honestly feel bad for him.

I am happy that this deal is almost over. I am among the guys who say let De-Ro play 2b. But I want to go on record that Lopez would be brought in to be a backup. They won’t replace De-Ro to have him start. Theirot either. He would be a guy who plays 2nd when De-Ro is playing another position. Or giving Theriot a chance to rest so he and make it the entire season. So if they get him it’s to be a backup.

I am not going to say I told you so but I will say that I would like to have Roberts but not at the cost. Yes in the eyes of some they are middling prospects. And not being a Cubs homer I am saying that if they were to pay what we were discussing in the threads and postings, then the Cubs wouldn’t have much depth. I like the Direction the team is headed and I would rather use the Colvins, Cedas of the system to get a top notch starter if one becomes available. Not a very good middle infielder.

XD, please don’t start with that. That is stuff that can and should be left to discussions you have with your friends around a beer not in here. Curse the cubs and their “crappy” prospects somewhere else. I don’t want to see that garbage in here. Not unless it’s directed to the south siders.  Sorry I couldn’t resist.

Remember that old saying. You don’t need to be fastest when being chased by a bear. You just need to be faster than 1 other person….

Buddha quote of the day “In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.”

[crunchy1]

Nice quote Bleacher Buddha! I'll try and remember that one.

[basemonkey]

I don't mean this the wrong way. Upmost respect. But if these Cubs prospects are so coveted and so extreme in talent, how come they couldn't land a MLB 2B? It's not like it's a ultra scarce position and/or Roberts was a future HOFer or even just in Utley's class. He is a proven quality leadoff/2B but he's not Joe Morgan. What does this say about Gallagher, Cedeno, Murton, and whoever else?

My point here is that the Cubs are in the midst of being sold in a long drawn out process by the local paper who owns it. Isn't this a major conflict of interests? Shouldn't it be reasonable to assume that the paper has a vested interest in hyping up the value of their youngest players? If it might mean serious financial trouble for the Trib to not do so, in uncertain times, there is pressure to suspend some journalistic integrity, esp. since it may contribute million dollar differences in asset appraisals and final selling price.

So the Cubs tried to use some of these assets in order to acquire a known quality 2B. Roberts is good but he's not a a completely scarce talent. The Cubs reportedly offered multiple packages of multiple prospects/players and couldn't pull it off. Therefore you have to think about the value of these guys in the true open trade market. Could it be that it's not as high as the Trib professes? The only way the Trib can save face at this point is if they blame the Orioles for being completely unreasonable and badly run, similar to what the Astros GM did when he pulled back the deal for the first Tejada negotiations with the Orioles.

[studio179]

The Tribune was sold to Sam Zell. He owns all Tribune assets. This was a baseball decision by Hendry and his people around him. Zell is not a baseball man or involved like Angelos. This is completely different from Baltimore.

[brianrein]

Please take Lopez away from Washington! And send them prospects! It's a great idea! Really!

...if you're from DC...

[crunchy1]

They were enough to land Roberts. It just wasn't enough for McPhail. Base, I don't want to keep harping on this but McPhail is all about his image and looking good in the press. McPhail did this kind of thing ALL the time with the Cubs. He always held on to players expecting the world in return...and more often than not, nothing got done. Things didn't get better until he gave more control to Hendry...and then things really started to pick up the moment McPhail left. The Cubs were willing to overpay on this deal but it wasn't enough to quell McPhail's intense fear of making a less than historic deal and looking bad in public. I know there's optimism in Baltimore with McPhail, but his failure to deal Roberts is just the beginning of things to come. It's typical. That's why we call him "McFail" in Chicago.

[basemonkey]

Studio,
You called me out and I am an idiot. My bad. If the Cubs are sold then it just says how out of touch I am with Cubs news. Apologies.

Crunch,
I understand where you're coming from. In the end I might be right there with you. But I can only judge it based on results. So far MacPhail has already had a very sweeping major change to the organization for the better. I can go on and on about what things (e.g. International Scouting div, Funds for draftees a la Wieters and Arrieta, Tejada and Bedard trades, etc, etc) but I won't bore you.

[Bleacher_Buddha]

Base,

McPhail had a tendency in Chicago to not always listen to his help. The folks he pays good money to know more about an individual than he does. He sometimes let his Ego get in the way of a good deal. I am not a complete McPhail basher but I thought he did make more bad deals than good ones.

I also think that there is some intreset in several of the Cubs prospects. Its just a matter of time until we see what that value is.

I am going to try not to do this but second Buddha Quote since its relevent "Do not dwell in the past, do not dream of the future, concentrate the mind on the present moment."

[bjsguess]

Awful news for Cubs fans. DeRosa is not a starter and Soriano shouldn't hit leadoff.

Roberts is by no means the loser in this. Someone is going to lose a 2nd baseman this year. Roberts provides tremendous value. While the Cubs won't pay up someone else will out of desperation.

[Cub4Life]

BJ, you are half right, Soriano shouldnt lead off, and he isnt going to. Theriot is. Thanks for keeping up.

The thing about DeRosa not being a starter. Again, do a little bit more research pal. In the years that he has started, he has done pretty darn well. Don't make us all compare his stats last year with Roberts. Please.

They are pretty darn similar, with the exception of SB. "DeRosa is not a starter"? Think again junior!

[studio179]

Well, bjsguess, DeRosa is a starter. Look at his numbers last year...last two years. Just because he is versatile and Roberts is a lead off second baseman, that is why DeRosa was ticketed to being a 'super sub'. The Cubs wanted another lefty bat (SH). Not because DeRosa is not good enough to be a everyday player.

Soriano has been batting second the last week or so. He will not be leading off this year. The Cubs moved him with or without Roberts. So it will be Theriot doing most of the leading off.

[studio179]

DeRosa hit a 3 run HR today. What timing, even if it's ST.

[Ndano]

I told you guys the deal was deal last week and I was accused of being a troll.

From what I heard, the other guys being mentioned were right, but in the end it came to no Marmol - no deal.

[crunchy1]

Isn't it funny how it's mostly the non-Cub fans that are upset this deal didn't go through? That speaks volume as to how lopsided this deal would have been. All these guys posting about how the deal should have been made are the same people who routinely come on the site to bash the Cubs and their fans.

[crunchy1]

Base, you never bore me;) I do agree there has been some serious minor league talent added to the Orioles in the past couple of years. And I also agree there's cause for hope. But I will say from my point of view that I hope the Cubs don't have to deal with McPhail anymore-- at least not on major deals. I hope the Orioles continue to rebuild...but not at the expense of the Cubs farm! Let someone else pay those prices. In the meantime, I'm rooting for Scott Moore and Rocky Cherry to make the team!

[nic]

I hope everyone is staying up tonight.

[scribbletone]

The thought that Brian Roberts is worth 2-3 top 100 prospects is simply preposterous. Brian Roberts is a very good player, a guy who has some very valuable skills and is far from overpaid. But when it comes down to it, he's really not that special. Only truly high quality players net 2-3 top 100 prospects, young guys like Nick Swisher. Swish is young and still has a ceiling, with Roberts you know what you're getting, and he may very well be worse than that. Roberts would've added say 2-3 wins to the Cubs, and that just simply isn't worth three high quality pitching prospects. Not when young pitching is almost definately the most valuable commodity in the game. Yes, each of those prospects has its flaws, but when you're in Baltimores position, in a division where the Yanks and Red Sox are always good and Toronto and Tampa are on the up and up, being just okay isn't good enough. This is a team that needs to gather up as many high quality young players as they possibly can, because realistically they don't stand a chance of winning for at least 2-3 years.

And Baltimore actually has done a very good job of gathering young guys, with position players like Markakis, Jones, Rowell, Snyder, Wieters and Reimold, and pitchers like Liz, Spoone, Loewen, Olson, Patton, Albers, and Penn. But the fact is that keeping Roberts on this team turns them from a 66 win team to a 69 win team. How does that benefit anyone? How does that benefit Roberts? Even if he doesn't get traded to Chicago, he should get traded just for the sake of the Orioles organization. I seriously doubt that Roberts is going to get any better, and unless Robinson Cano gets hit by a bus or Dustin Pedroia has a stroke, I don't see anyone persuing Roberts that hard. Teams don't add guys like Roberts when they already have young guys set at the position. Especially not when the asking price is 2-3 top prospects.

[Joe]

Why would the Cubs want Lopez? He has a bad attitude (and it wouldn't get any better because he probably won't start for the Cubs), can't get on base, can't hit for average or power, and is a terrible defender. The only thing he can do is run. But so can Theriot. So can Eric Patterson. I would rather use one of thoses two than trade for Lopez.

[BxSquad]

lol, man you guys need to give it a rest, cubs already have the best team in their division

sori will hit more home runs this year by the way.

cant see how he hit 46 in rfk and so little at wrigley last year, he should easily reach 40 this year

[Aduncaroo]

Don't get me wrong Mile, I like Roberts and would have liked him as a Cub. I still hope it happens. But to say he is worth our 3 best pitching prospects plus...I just think it was too much and I'm actually proud at this moment of our GM. I wish the O's the best and maybe we can revisit this deal later on or at the deadline.

From the O's perspective, you just got a worse pick in the draft next year. You should be getting rid of ALL your good veteran players, and stocking up high ceiling young ones. Roberts could have netted you a few of those, or at least one or two. There is no reason to keep him and what happens if he gets hurt?? Then the value goes to nothing...I like Roberts a lot and would have loved to have him...but not at the cost McPhail was asking.

I truly believe that Eric Patterson could start at 2nd when Derosa subs for someone else and he gives you what you are looking for in this scenario. I know I've said this, but look at the kid, he has hit everywhere and projects as league average THIS year. He will get better and has shown much improvement defensively. He may not be Brian Roberts, but he could be in a year or 3 offensively anyway. We have DeRosa for two years and Tony Thomas should be ready after that. Honestly, they should be going after a SS and having Theriot be that super sub guy. Thats just my 2 cents, but SS is a MUCH bigger need if Theriot doesn't hit...and even if he does, Derosa is the better offensive player. Also, any talk of Derosa not being a starter is just uneducated. Look at his numbers, look at the league average, and tell me you don't want him starting on at least half the teams around baseball.

[scribbletone]

Ya know, aduncaroo, I thought the same thing, about getting a shortstop instead. But when you look around the league, there just aren't any available. Raffy Furcal is a free agent this summer, so I would hope that the Cubs would go after him after this season, like they did when he was a free agent three years ago.

[scribbletone]

Ya know, aduncaroo, I thought the same thing, about getting a shortstop instead. But when you look around the league, there just aren't any available. Raffy Furcal is a free agent this summer, so I would hope that the Cubs would go after him after this season, like they did when he was a free agent three years ago.

[scribbletone]

Ya know, aduncaroo, I thought the same thing, about getting a shortstop instead. But when you look around the league, there just aren't any available. Raffy Furcal is a free agent this summer, so I would hope that the Cubs would go after him after this season, like they did when he was a free agent three years ago.

[scribbletone]

Ya know, aduncaroo, I thought the same thing, about getting a shortstop instead. But when you look around the league, there just aren't any available. Raffy Furcal is a free agent this summer, so I would hope that the Cubs would go after him after this season, like they did when he was a free agent three years ago.

[scribbletone]

wow.

[OUTL@W]EC[]

t

[Cub4Life]

So, Scribble...basically what you are saying is:

I thought the same thing, about getting a shortstop instead. But when you look around the league, there just aren't any available. Raffy Furcal is a free agent this summer, so I would hope that the Cubs would go after him after this season, like they did when he was a free agent three years ago.

Just wanted to make sure we all had that straight! ;)

[OUTL@W]EC[]

Bottom line the Cub's lack of younger talented prospects is why the deal never was able to get done.Three prospects wipes the farm out.WOW, the farm is in bad shape it seems to me.As far as Mcfail. he's done a great job so far, time will tell.Baltimore has been screwed with lot's of bad luck to go with it.I'm glade to see the O's building from ground up.It's been long over due.Mcphail, I'm sure he couldn't do any worse signings then Belle, Segie, ect. or my favorite was Glen Davis for Harnish,Finley,SHilling.T he Davis deal no matter how hard I try I can't let go.Every fan over values their own teams prospects,I mean I DREAM EVERY DAY TOO.every one want's the guy to become an allstar or to be argued one.Roberts is an allstar and I'm not dreaming.Maybe not the 100+ RBI,I'm talking about 100+ RS AND 40+ SB.Roberts deserves to be on a winning team and he will be traded just maybe not to the Cub's.I strongly disagree the O's will not get anything better in return then what the Cub's are offering.

[darkstar1661]

Perfectly said with your 6:00PM Post MileHigh!

Did want to add to it a bit though First, everyone is acting like the Cubs offered Gallagher/Veal/Cedeno/Ceda and were turned down ~ but that’s not the case. Ceda was always “off limits” (like so may others), and the two sides were talking about who that forth guy would be. The most we know is it was looking like Gallagher/Veal/Cedeno/??? and what is that really? Cedeno will probably be waived sometime real soon because he is out of options, not showing his potential, and the team doesn’t have the 25-man spot to carry him. So we are left with Gallagher/Veal, both of which project to a back-of-rotation type with an upside of a 3. So that’s 2 probable 4-5 starters (if they make the majors) with the ceiling of LgAvg (SP3 type), one of which is fairly likely to become a ML regular (Gallagher), one off a rather miserable year (Veal). The target? A top-5 2B in the game who fits all the teams needs, is locked up for 2 years and will almost certainly get you two 1st rounders when he walks before the 2011 season. If all it took was adding Ceda or Colvin, then I don’t know how you don’t do it…

But one of the biggest things we have heard from Cubs fans is that they don’t think Roberts is enough of an upgrade over DeRosa to make it worth it. Never mentioned though, is the fact that DeRosa has never started more than 135-ish Games in any single year, and only played 135+ twice in 10 seasons… What is never mentioned is the fact that he will be 33 this year, and players without speed and only moderate power generally don’t age well past their 30s… What is never mentioned is the fact that he had a 5-year OBP run of .339, .316, .293, .325 and .357 before last year ~ and other than that .357, well… What is never mentioned is the fact that it means either multiple trades will need to take place (to obtain Vet back-ups for CF & UI) or the team will be with rookies or unprovens on the bench and as their backups. What is never mentioned is the fact that a team hoping to win it all will be starting 2 rookies, 1 player with no ML playingtime, 2 average to below-average players (DeRosa & Theriot) and 3 true star players who recently sustained frightening or production altering injuries ~ while being without a true leadoff hitter and heavily Right-Handed in their lineup. That added to a rotation lacking a true Ace, 2 complete unknowns for the last two spots, and no proven closer…

The team will succeed; they will win games and likely make the playoffs. But there is a difference between building a team to make the playoffs and building a team to go all the way. Case in point, Det built a team which should make the playoffs but wasn’t satisfied so they traded pieces which may or may not ever produce for them in the majors to better their chances of winning it all. The Angels on the other hand tried to walk the line between today and tomorrow, not surrendering their prospects for the upgrades they have needed and are in a continued cycle of being just good enough to be eliminated in the first round every year… When the question is trading 3 pieces which will not help your ML club in the next 2-3 years and a pitcher who is about 8th on your depth chart for 2 year player who will provide dramatic improvement to your club in nearly every area where its needed ~ well, how can you not make the deal…

[MaxPower]

Lopez isn't an upgrade for cedeno. what the hell aare they thinking tring to get him to replace derosa or theriot. If the cubs cant get roberts, then i guess ur stuck with what u got till the trade deadline!

[milehigh78]

Where do I begin?!

First, I guess I'll just say this: I don't know why everyone is getting bitter and pissy about this news. It seems to me that, in a weird way, both sides are getting what they wanted... The Cubs fans didn't want their GM to overpay for a guy that they perceived as only a 'slight upgrade over DeRosa.' (Well...Baseball Prospectus made that claim; Cubs fans just repeated it). Mission accomplished! The O's didn't want to give up one of their few truly excellent players for a package they perceived as being substandard. Again, success! Instead of screeching back and forth about McFail being a bad GM and the Cubs being stingy, let's take a page from the Buddha's book and grab an Old Style (or Natty Bo, for the Bal'mur fans, hon) and celebrate.

From a personal standpoint, I'm a little disappointed that it all ended like this and think that it's probably in Roberts' and the Orioles' best interests to part ways, but I'm also very glad that- if reports are accurate and the Cubs only offered Gallagher, Veal, and Cedeno- McPhail held his ground.

You don't want to walk away from a deal feeling like you've been 'had,' and clearly McPhail wasn't hearing the kind of names necessary to justify a deal. Clearly, most O's fans are in agreement.

[milehigh78]

Now, having said that, I'm a little taken aback by some of the garbage I've just read here. Crunchy, you in particular seem chalk full of sour grapes tonight. It's really unbecoming and, frankly, kinda stale. The deal is off. Live with it. You say you're happy, but begrudge McPhail and the O's seemingly because they didn't see things your way. Again, you've got DeRosa and Patterson, which you've said again and again, is almost as good as having Roberts, so I don't really understand your attitude. If you actually believe all that, then you shouldn't feel the need to cheer yourself up by knocking someone else down.

Of all of the wrong-headed comments I read, crunchy, a good half were yours and it wasn't simply a matter of responding to the comments of others. You continuously harped upon McPhail and how Roberts is overvalued. Obviously I disagree and I think that it will bare out in the long run, but we'll see. Still, to say that Roberts isn't worth '2-3 top 100 prospects is A)just your opinion and B)misleading. As far as we've read here, only one top 100 prospect was offered and that was Gallagher, a questionable selection considering his rather ordinary upside. Is it so difficult for you to understand why McPhail wouldn't be impressed by an offer of such an unremarkable young player, a questionable middle infielder like Ronnie Cedeno, and Veal- a kid with shoulder problems that sound eerily similar to Patton's and whose upside is obscured by his awful performance in '07. The apparent regression demonstrated hardly elicits excitement! And while you've made the point that BA gave Veal a vote for their top 100, almost every other source with a similar list now has Veal well below the cut-off (furthermore, BA doesn't include Veal in their top 100 and the direction he's moving isn't positive).

You whine about McPhail wanting too much; talk about keeping things 'in perspective,' but it seems perspective is exactly what you're missing...or at least any perspective other than that of 'Cubs fan.' Similarly you made the claim that it's only O's fans complaining about the deal getting called off when that's simply not the case. Quite the contrary. Every post from an O's fan that I read sounded relieved that Roberts isn't going to get sent off for 30 cents on the dollar. While that, too, is mere opinion, it's every bit as valid as your own.

You go on to say that Roberts wouldn't have changed the Cubs' fate in last year's playoffs and claim it's 'laugable' to think he'd change the club's prospects this year. Of course, none of this can be known. Meanwhile you and others make up (or worse, repeat) random 'facts' like 'Roberts would only mean two or three more wins' to either the Cubs or O's. Even if there were ANY way of knowing that, I'm sure you'd take those three if they were Games 5, 6, and 7 of the World Series. But who decides what games he decides? You?

Later you note the Houston deal- entirely irrelevant- and argue that those players won't have the effect that the Cubs' kids would've had. Ummm...are you psychic? From where I'm standing Albers and Gallagher seem fairly comparable while I'd much rather have a guy like Scott, capable of putting up 25+HRs, than a glorified utility type like Cedeno or Patterson. ...Not that it matters, since Roberts is FAR more valuable a player than Tejada (these days, at least) Where are you getting these ideas? I'm honestly curious. 'No amount of PR is going to change that.' Likewise, the Cubs' hype machine cannot change the perception that- more and more- seems to be shared around the league. Basemonkey made a good point that the Cubs prospects weren't enough to get Roberts (to which you responded with the rather facile claim that they WERE enough, just not enough for McPhail; McPhail is our GM, so that means it WASN'T enough for Roberts. Beside which, I doubt you'll find a single O's fan who would have done anything different than what McPhail did) and offered that the league doesn't seem to have too high an opinion of the Cubs' prospects. The offers made re: Marlon Byrd and Coco Crisp seem to reinforce this notion.

Over and over, you've made statement that are either patently false or are opinions dressed up as fact. I respect you, crunch, and respect your passion for the Cubs and for baseball. Furthermore, I appreciate the vocal way you go about posting here and the perspective you bring to the table. In this case, however, you just come across as bitter. I don't know if you and the rest of the Cubs' faithful were spoiled by the ARam trade, but that's not usually how it works.

[milehigh78]

Time and again I read posts from Cubs fans talking about how the O's need to get 'high quality young players,' or 'high ceiling prospects.' My response, as an O's fan is this: that's what we were TRYING TO DO! As in turned out, however, Hendry didn't want to part with such talent. In the end, Gallagher was the biggest name offered! I'm not going to get into a pissing match about the Cubs' farm system, I'm just saying that from McPhail's perspective (one shared by most O's fans I've met), the players being offered were not of a high enough quality to part with Roberts. Maybe if Ceda HAD been offered, we'd be talking about a done deal. Maybe if Colvin hadn't been 'untouchable.' In the end, though, too much seemed to be 'off limits,' and what Hendry was willing to part with failed to meet McPhail's standards as a 'high quality young player,' or 'high-ceiling prospect.'

With the Cubs no longer in the picture, McPhail may, indeed, talk to Cleveland or Chicago. Seattle could certainly use a 2B, as could Colorado. Injuries happen (and you're right, crunchy or whoever it was...Roberts COULD get hurt, but the sense was, we're not losing anything in that case because nothing that good was on the table to begin with). So do poor performances. If worse came to worse, I'd take my chances on two high draft picks over what was reportedly being offered- with the money the O's seem to be willing to spend now, those two picks could turn out to be pretty special (think about what you guys did with a supp 1st and a third last year- Donaldson and Thomas. Not bad). It's a risk and one that pushes back the timetable for whatever return we net from Roberts, but...well...any prospect is a risk; at least with the draft picks we can choose whoever we want (nobody's 'untouchable') and get guys with major upside. But I think that's a longshot. More likely, someone else will jump at the chance to pick up an A.S. 2B who can lead off and steal 50 bases.

For now, though, Roberts remains an Oriole. And everybody wins...sort of. Instead of bickering we should all be happy we got what we wanted. Maybe the O's were greedy. Maybe the Cubs were stingy. And maybe, just maybe, we'll be talking about this deal again in three or four months. Gotta love baseball season!

[milehigh78]

Dark- some good points. I'm with you: there's a lot here that doesn't seem to make a ton of sense. Nevertheless, it appears the deal is off, so there's really no reason to beat a dead horse. I honestly wish the Cubs and their fans the best this year. I'll be watching them closely (particularly the NL Central's version of Brian Roberts- Mark DeRosa) and even rooting for them to win the big one, since there's no chance in hell Baltimore's going to the playoffs. Likewise, I've enjoyed verbally sparring with the Cubs fans on these Roberts threads. Good luck this year crunchy, adun, INOK, Cubs4Life, Bleacher Buddha, and everyone else! Let the chips fall where they may and play ball.

[crunchy1]

Milehigh, you blabber on and on but you don't say much here. Think about the situation here for a moment. You say Cub fans say the Orioles asked for too much. Would this make sense? Of course it would. The Orioles have no desperate need to trade Roberts right now, so they can hold on to him and see what happens. The Cubs are perceived to be in a "win now" mode. Does it not make sense that the team on the other side of the equation will try to get a premium on this deal in hopes that the "win now" team will overpay? Do you really think the Orioles were good samaritans and didn't try to take advantage of the Cubs situation? What world do you live in? The Orioles saw opportunity and tried to take advantage of it by extracting more than Roberts worth. That's the way the world works. The problem is that McFail, as usual, overplayed his hand. Get used to it in Baltimore.

[crunchy1]

And as far as worth and value is concerned, is it not reasonable to assume that the value that Hendry had for Roberts was less than what Oriole fans think it is? Whatever you think Roberts worth is in a vacuum (i.e. "he's an allstar!"), the only thing that really matters is what Hendry thinks Roberts' value to the Cubs is. It's obviously less than what the Orioles were asking for, so why should he make the deal? Gallagher, Marshall, Ceda, Veal all provide the Cubs with pitching depth. Does that not have value to a contending team? At some point Hendry has to value which is more important to a team, to be prepared to deal with injuries to the pitching staff or an upgrade at leadoff. Considering what the Orioles were asking, it's obvious that the Cubs felt that the value loss in pitching depth outweighed the gains that Roberts provides. Furthermore, the Cubs can't afford to bank all their tradeable assets on one player like Roberts. This would assume that no need will arise for the rest of the year. The Cubs need to keep assets in reserve for the ups and downs of a season. What if Soto gets hurt? What if Pie falters and Colvin or Fuld aren't ready? The Cubs don't have ready replacements, they will need to use those same assets to keep the team contending. They won't do much good if they are all in Baltimore and all we have to show for it is a better leadoff man. I think a lot of these posts treat Roberts like he's the final solution. He isn't. That's a dangerous game for the Cubs to play and Hendry is much smarter than what O's fans are giving him credit for. He sees the big picture.

[scribbletone]

Personally I have no issues with Hendry holding onto his pitching prospects. They are extremely valuable and he really shouldn't need to give up more than two, not for a guy like Roberts. Roberts is a fantastic player in his own right, and arguably the best player on Baltimore as of this moment.

And the argument that Roberts is only a slight upgrade over DeRosa simply isn't valid. 2007 DeRosa was better than pretty much anything we've ever seen from him. I wouldn't put my money on him repeating that .372 OBP. When you consider that and the fact that Roberts completely transforms our lineup with his OBP, speed and lefthandedness out of the leadoff spot, you have to realize that there is a discernable difference between him and what you'll get from DeRosa and Eric Patterson.

But at the same time, look at Roberts' numbers for the last four years. I think it should be duly noted that Roberts isn't quite the consistent all star that he appears to be made out to be. He's had two good years, and two mediocre years. The question is, which Roberts are you getting? The one with the .380 OBP or the one with the .345 OBP? Roberts is far from a certainty.

Personally, I would be willing to give up a package of Gallagher, Colvin, Veal and Cedeno, simply because I think we need to retain at least one of those pitching prospects. Essentially say we'll give you two of Veal, Gallagher and Ceda, and Colvin and Cedeno. If MacPhail turns that down, then wait and see if he'll ever get anything better. I would be downright shocked if another team came along and offered a package superior to that.

And if honestly, if you have to admit that MacPhail was asking for pretty much as much as he possibly could. He saw a potential oppurtunity to make a lopsided trade, and he chased that. I mean c'mon, look at the trades being discussed earlier in the winter (Gallagher, Cedeno, Murton) compared to the trades being discussed now (Gallagher, Veal, Cedeno, Prospect). Clearly MacPhail has been continuously upping his asking price, hoping that Hendry will continue to cave in. He hasn't. It appears that he won't. Maybe he will in July if the Cubs are down three games to Milwaukee. But at this point I have no complaints with the situation, from either side.

[Aduncaroo]

Darkstar says,

"So we are left with Gallagher/Veal, both of which project to a back-of-rotation type with an upside of a 3. So that’s 2 probable 4-5 starters (if they make the majors) with the ceiling of LgAvg (SP3 type), one of which is fairly likely to become a ML regular (Gallagher), one off a rather miserable year (Veal)."

Baseball Prospectus says:
"Veal still has a star-level ceiling as a power left-hander."

Looks like Darkstar is pretty much dead wrong yet again. Veal's ceiling is a mid rotation starter? As a lefty that can throw 96? No...you are wrong, eat your crow. He has always had a ceiling of a top of the rotation starter...and still does according to experts, which you are obviously not. Don't come on here and act like the Cubs weren't willing to part with anything. According to you, we were going to give them a MLB ready pitcher who could be a 3, who has 6 years(!) of service time for next to nothing, a pitcher, even coming off a down year, still has top of the rotation ceiling and is lefty (sounds a lot like a Bedard type...), and a SS who would be your starter for probably 3 or 4 years to come....all for a guy that doesn't do ANYTHING for you right now but make your position worse in next year's draft. yes, he COULD get you a compensation pick, or it could be blocked if that team has a good one. Your anti cubs bias shows again, and Mile...if you think Crunch's bitterness is stale...trying dealing with this crap for the last year and a half.

[davearm]

Whether or not it's good enough, the O's are staring at the best offer they're likely to get on Roberts.

Don't fool yourself. Thirtysomething ballplayers approaching free agency are depreciating assets.

So the O's are going to either:
* trade Roberts for less at some point in the future; or
* let him go for nothing beyond a draft pick or two in two years; or
* re-sign him through his decline years like they did with Melvin Mora.

Given the proper context, Gallagher + Cedeno + Veal + a fourth doesn't sound so bad after all.

[scribbletone]

Thats what I don't quite get here. What is MacPhail's plan if he doesnt trade Roberts for this discussed package? Does he trade him somewhere else, when it appears there aren't many obvious suitors outside of the Cubs, Mariners (who won't after the Bedard trade) and Rockies. At this point it seems like a larger risk to not trade him, because if he gets hurt or his production drops or something, then MacPhail is gonna be seriously regretting this decision. Gallagher, Veal, Cedeno and a prospect is a pretty solid offer on all accounts. You got a lower ceiling, higher probability prospect in Gallagher, a higher ceiling, lower probability prospect in Veal, a solid stopgap shortstop in Cedeno (Orioles have no other options at short long term, Hernandez won't hit enough to be in the majors), and another prospect on top of that.

[scribbletone]

Thats what I don't quite get here. What is MacPhail's plan if he doesnt trade Roberts for this discussed package? Does he trade him somewhere else, when it appears there aren't many obvious suitors outside of the Cubs, Mariners (who won't after the Bedard trade) and Rockies. At this point it seems like a larger risk to not trade him, because if he gets hurt or his production drops or something, then MacPhail is gonna be seriously regretting this decision. Gallagher, Veal, Cedeno and a prospect is a pretty solid offer on all accounts. You got a lower ceiling, higher probability prospect in Gallagher, a higher ceiling, lower probability prospect in Veal, a solid stopgap shortstop in Cedeno (Orioles have no other options at short long term, Hernandez won't hit enough to be in the majors), and another prospect on top of that.

[milehigh78]

crunchy-

You gave in to your chest-thumping base instincts at the end there- leading the Cubs fan bandwagon with a salute to the chief ('He sees the big picture.') and declaratively spinning the club's failure to acquire Roberts for any fans with lingering doubts/fears ('I think a lot of these posts treat Roberts like he's the final solution. He isn't.'). If I ever run for office, I'm calling you to run my campaign! You deftly defer and give credit to the boss while still taking the lead in a moment of 'crisis'- helping malleable minds toward your way of thinking with bold, if baseless supposition. That said, in this case it's a shame you felt the histrionics were necessary, since I thought the actual content of your post contained some terrific points.

You're 100% correct about value/worth. I've been saying as much for months now. I'm glad you've come around...even if it's only because it now fits your agenda.

'...the only thing that really matters is what Hendry thinks Roberts' value to the Cubs is. It's obviously less than what the Orioles were asking for, so why should he make the deal?'

Precisely! You left out the O's side- it's also important how THEY value Roberts; the deal would've been made for the lesser offer otherwise- but it's a minor quibble; a matter of rhetoric. In the end, Hendry DID NOT consider Roberts to be worth what it would cost, so he DID NOT make the deal. That's completely fair- his prerogative- just as it's fair for McPhail to demand what he considers full value. When it came down to it, the two sides had very different views of value and went their separate ways.

While I have my own opinions pertaining to the coulda/shoulda/wouldas of the deal, I also think you present an interesting case for why Hendry may have balked at McPhail's asking price: perhaps, in S.T., certain holes were exposed and the Cubs' GM wanted to make sure he had the resources to address them down the line. I'm not sure how much usable depth Gallagher, Ceda, and Veal represent in '08, but who knows? Certainly youngsters have played significant late season/post-season roles in the past... (Devil's advocate: the Cubs DO seem to have a glut of BP arms, so I'm not sure how much that applies to Ceda, and Veal is almost certain to spend the duration of '08 in the mid-minors. Likewise, if it came down to Colvin, he's more of an '09/10 call-up. Nevertheless, s*#@ happens ,so...)

Unlike some of your other recent posts, you largely steered clear of laying blame or attempting to see the 'impasse' as a matter of fault, which I think is the thing we can take away from all of this... It just wasn't working. There's no need to play to the bitter breakup stereotypes. Sometimes you just realize, you're better off being friends (and go screw her friend with the big'uns). All in all, a good post.

BTW- what was up with your previous post?! 'Do you really think the Orioles were good samaritans and didn't try to take advantage of the Cubs situation? What world do you live in?' Um, first- assh*le much? And where did I say anything about the O's being good Samaritans? Quite the contrary, I've been the one talking value/worth from the start and stating that, yes, it might take more than Roberts is 'worth' to acquire him. Please don't attack me for something I didn't say. And how exactly did 'McFail' overplay his hand? He asked. Hendry said no. He moved on. That's it in a nutshell. Neither team considered the value offered to be adequate. It just seem here (first post) that you're blaming McPhail for wanting too much, which is ridiculous.

[delaware_bird]

As it turns out, I trust MacPhail's judgement.

Gallagher is nifty, no doubt.
Veal has his issues. If he figures them out this year, he could be nice. If not, he could be a career minor leaguer.
I am unconvinced that Cedeno represents a substancial ubgrade over Luis Hernandez.
And then there is "some other prospect".
Cubs cans can call the offer 'solid', 'fair', or even 'good value', but it isn't convincing to many Oriole fans. And, obviously, to MacPhail.

Unless the other prospect is Patterson, I don't see how obtaining Gallagher, et al and opening a huge hole at 2nd base represents an upgrade to the team.

The two teams just failed to find middle ground. Scribbletone and Davearm seem to want to blame the Orioles. That's silly. Both teams just couldn't agree. Personally, I don't see why the Cubs would be so adamant about not moving Colvin in the deal. It could have worked, and might still yet.

Davearm, your ability to predict the future with crystal clarity is amazing. We are all humbled by your dazzling knowledge. When you can figure out tomorrow's lottery numbers, let me know. Otherwise your insistence that the Orioles will trade Roberts in the future for less than this offer is nothing but hot air.

[studio179]

The timing of this post is beautiful.

"But one of the biggest things we have heard from Cubs fans is that they don’t think Roberts is enough of an upgrade over DeRosa to make it worth it. Never mentioned though, is the fact that DeRosa has never started more than 135-ish Games in any single year, and only played 135+ twice in 10 seasons… What is never mentioned is the fact that he will be 33 this year, and players without speed and only moderate power generally don’t age well past their 30s… "

Little guys with speed loose their speed in their 30's. Roberts is in his 30's. He will not steal 50 bases this year. No one is saying Roberts is bad or he would not be a good addition. Most Cub fans are saying we don't need to give up those whom Andy wants for a good, not great middle infielder.

Btw, it was just reported Brian Roberts needed to get an injection due to lower back spasms. All of that stealing bases early in ST to show case has caught up with him. I might add to those who posted the Cubs had to give up more (milehigh, dark, others) when DeRosa had his heartbeat issues, the coin has flipped. Lower back issues on any player is bad. These issues on a second baseman who has to turn the double play and is noted for his steals is a bad, bad thing.

[INOK]

I just want the O's fans to understand where crunchy, adun, studio, I think scrib and others are comming from concerning McPhail. We had to deal with this guy for 12 years, 12 LONG years. We had to endure several chances lost because of McPhails stammering, stuttering, deer in headlights way of doing business. You will see. The moves he has made so far in Baltimore are obvious moves. We can argue the Roberts deal but wait till your on the brink of contending (hopefully soon) and he freezes up. You will most definitely type his name McFail.

[studio179]

I back that one up, INOK. They will see in time.

[davearm]

delaware_bird --

It doesn't take Nostradamus to recognize that the O's are being foolish if the plan is to sit back and wait for some better offer to come along, because the odds are stacked against that happening.

[crunchy1]

Milehigh, I’ll admit that I let my personal disdain for McPhail get in the way at times. He’s in a honeymoon period with the O’s fans now so that probably doesn’t go over very well. I’ll let that part go. I’m curious who you think you’d get from Cleveland or the White Sox. The Sox don’t have a single top 100 prospect and the Indians have two top 100 pitching prospects, Adam Miller and Chuck Lofgren. Do you think the Indians will give those guys up with the Sabathia situation up in the air? The Indians were good enough to win it all last year despite their collapse. They’re good enough to win it all this year again, with or without Roberts. I really don’t think you’d get more from either team than you would from the Cubs…and draft picks? I’m not going to rehash the percentages of getting a healthy, MLB impact player other than to say that it’s a bad bet and worst case scenario. In my opinion, the O’s missed out on an opportunity that may not come around again. But time will tell on that one. At any rate, it’s apparent the Cubs didn’t want Roberts as badly as everyone seemed to assume. Hendry’s value for him seemed to echo what a lot of Cub fans thought, he’s a “nice to have” but he isn’t a make or break player for us. If Hendry thought he had that kind of value, he would have paid the price.

delaware_bird, I'm not blaming the Orioles for this deal not happening. They have the full right to not make the deal. I just think they're making a mistake. I think Roberts' value is higher than it'll ever be, and there aren't many other obvious suitors for Roberts out there outside of the Cubs. At this point the Cubs were willing to offer some pretty good players, and odds are that Roberts' value goes down from here. He's past 30 years old, and he's a player based on speed. That doesn't bode well for him, considering speed players tend to decline faster because their game is so based on raw skills. So while I'm not necessarily blaming the Orioles or the Cubs for this deal not