Rockies Talking Trade With Reds

I liked the move for Holliday...they got what they felt is the best offer talent wise, regardless of position.

THe Reds already have superior players on their roster. Really don't trust Atkins outside of Coors and Taveras is a young Corey Patterson. Torrealba could be ok but he hasn't really done much more then the group of catchers that the REds have ran out there over the years either.

If they could be had for next to nothing I would take a shot but I wouldn't be crazy about any of them.

UNRELATED NOTE:

Congrats Timmy Lincecum!!!!

"Is Manny Corpas really a "solid option" at closer? He completely collapsed this year.

It really looks like the Rockies are blowing up that team."

Yes, he is a solid option. Bad start to his sophomore season, but he turned it around and was solid for the rest of the season. Trading Taveras and Torrealba isn't blowing up the team, it's trimming the fat. Atkins is being traded because Stewart knocked him out of 3rd and Helton is re-taking 1st.

Could a Taveras and Torrealba for Homer Bailey be too little? Bailey's stock can't be that high due to his.. failure so far in majors.

Keep in mind that Gozalez can also play RF, which would allow them to move Hawpe to LF. Gonzalez was a top prospect, after all, so why would you even think of trading him?

As for the Nats, what the h are they thinking? They just acquired Willingham to play in the OF along with Dukes, Milledge, and Kearns (who hasn't been released yet), and now they are also interested in Gonzalez? Who are they going to give up? Their pitching prospects aren't even that good. And pitching is what the Rox would ask for, which is also what the Nats are in dire need of. Unless Bowden is just making trades for the sake of making trades. Although I don't blame him for being interested in Gonzalez.

As for Street, I don't think they are going to keep him, as they already have Corpas and Buchholz at the closer and setup roles, respectively. This would be a great way for them to add some great pitching prospects. I highly doubt that the Angels would be interested in him, as they already have Shields and Arredondo in those roles. The Indians would be a nice team to look at, as they have some nice pitchers. I could see the Mets being interested, as well as the Rays. I think that it would be in the best of Colorado's interest to trade Street to Tampa, as they have some great pitching prospects blocked (ie. Wade Davis, Jeff Niemann, etc)

Manny Corpas could definitely handle being the closer for years to come. He was very effective during the Rockies World Series run (a big showcase) but then fell apart early last year before reestablishing himself as a setup man. I think Street will certainly get dumped onto a team in need of a closer and it'll end up being Holliday for Gonzalez, Smith, and two or three other prospects. I think Corpas could be an effective closer once again - they don't really need Street.

But I'm wondering why the Reds would want Garrett Atkins with EE there? I still say the Twins should jump on Atkins and send one of their pitchers to Coors for a lifetime of 4.75 ERAs.

I'm not sure if Bailey's value has dropped that far.

Can Atkins play left? Because im not sure hes much of an upgrade than EE at third base.

Why not Barmes?

Taverez, Torretabla, and Atkins for-

Bailey
Malony
Dorn
Stubbs
another prospect

Way way to much for what the Reds would be getting.

Remove Bailey and Stubbs from it and your closer.

Taverez and Torreabla have near negitive value at this point since neither option is better then what the Reds can already run out there. Atkins is a player that can't hit outside of Coors and can't really play defense.

the rox were on the edge of being a great team. management needed to make a couple key adjustments and they would have been there.
instead, fer instance, they figured they had enough pitching
now they may have to blow this up
• another thing rox needed to do was upgrade outfield D. having either holliday or hawpe is fine, having both, especially on a wide field like that, not good. gonzalez will help them immediately in that regard while he finds a stroke, which may not take too long
• corpas is a set-up guy

Atkins could play LF if the Reds really wanted him too. Yet I think they could bring in something better with Homer Bailey and EE in a package.

So the Reds want to replace a terrible CF (Patterson) with another one. Good plan. Yes I know Willy T steals a billion bases; however he can't get an extra base hit to save his life and he is a horrible clutch hitter.

Why would the Reds want (or need) Tavares? They already have Ryan Freel, Norris Hopper and Chris Dickerson on the roster and Jocketty is supposedly talking to Jerry Hairston Jr's Agent about bringing him back (DON'T DO IT!!!!).

In my opinion, the Reds screwed up by NOT trading for Josh Willingham.

Jocketty has already publicly said the Reds NEED a Right Handed power hitter to play Left Field. Guess what Willingham is?

Willingham's Road stats for the years 2006 - 2008 combined were this: a .280 Batting Average, .373 On Base Percentage, .514 Slugging Percentage and an OPS of .887. How good would THOSE stats have looked between Votto and Bruce?

Plus, because the Marlins are yet again in fire sale mode, he wouldn't have cost much to acquire and even after winning in Salary Arbitration, he wouldn't have cost much to keep ($4 to 5 million for one year).

So, the Reds could have used Dickerson in CF. If he couldn't hit Left handed Pitching then he could ahve been platooned with Hopper. Freel could have been used in the super sub role.

The batting order could ahve been:

Dickerson/Hopper CF
Phillips 2B
Votto 1B
Willingham LF
Bruce RF
Keppinger SS (because A Gon is old and injury prone. Also, he is a streaky, Strike Out prone, Home Run hitting wannabe. The type of player the Reds Offense NEEDS to get away from.
Edwin E 3B
Hanigan C
P

This would give the Reds a balanced line up with both power and speed. It is also a line up that doesn't just rely on the Home Run as the main way of scoring Runs.

redhawk61,

I know and I curse Jocketty for NOT going after him.

He is younger than Maglio Ordonez and Marcus Thames, two guys who have been rumored on this board as guys who the Reds could/should be going after.

He would cost less than Holliday or Ordonez as far as the talent it would have taken to acquire him.

He would have cost less than Holliday, Ordonez and Burrell as far as salary goes.

So, with Willingham, the Reds would have had a guy who cost 1/3 as much as Adam Dunn but who put up 80 to 90% of his RBI's and who had a higher Batting Average than Dunn and who Struck Out only 80% as much.

By getting Willingham, the Reds would have STILL had prospects and money so as to be able to fill in OTHER holes on the team.

Now it looks like they are going to overpay for Tavares, Atkins and Torrealba. Not real bright if you ask me.

Damn the Giants, Dodgers, and Diamondbacks are lucky. They are going to have the two worst teams in their division in 2009.

"Can Iannetta handle a pitching staff??? Is he a tremendous locker room presense??? Will he wear a C on his uniform???"

All I know is that you can make a jacket with all the leather he knocks off a baseball and is sure handed behind the plate.

"All I know is that you can make a jacket with all the leather he knocks off a baseball"

hahaha, nice.

why is this a long shot, is he a big prospect for the organization or something? wheres the beef?

Okay, so check it out. The Tribe have been looking at Huston Street for the past few weeks. And Atkins' name has been thrown around quite a few times as well since May, as a possible anchor at 3B.

THE ----ING TRIBE MUST GO AFTER THESE GUYS SINCE THEY'RE NOW ON THE SAME TEAM. THIS IS THE PERFECT OPPORTUNITY, AND MARK SHAPIRO IS LIKELY TO LET IT BLOW AWAY, AS USUAL.

GmblingPther,

Over the past three years, the Reds have paid Adam Dunn about $30 million dollars. For their money, they have gotten a ONE TOOL player who has BENEFITTED from playing in Great American Small Park. During that time, Dunn hit 120 Home Runs, scored about 300 Runs and drove in about 300 RBI's.

In 2008, Dunn hit a HR once in every 11.09 At Bats with the Reds. With 525 At Bats, that would mean he was on pace to hit 47 Home Runs. Once Dunn was traded to the D backs, his HR production DROPPED. After the trade, he hit a HR once in every 18 At Bats. With 525 At Bats, this would mean Dunn was on a pace to hit 29 Home Runs.

Now look what Willingham has done over the past three years while playing his Home Games in a PITCHERS PARK.

He has hit .266 with 62 Home Runs, 191 Runs scored and 214 RBI's. This includes time missed in 2008 because of an injury. How much was he paid those three years? $1.1 million dollars.

Now, look at how guys like Joe Randa, Todd Walker, Rich Aurillia, Scott Hatteberg, Jeff Conine and even Brandon Phillips have BENEFITTED from playing IN GASP.

If Willingham has put up those types of numbers while playing in a Pitchers park, don't you think HIS numbers would go up if he were playing in GASP and batting in between Votto and Bruce? I do.

Again, look at Willingham's Raod stats for the past three years. A .280 Batting Average, .373 On Base Percentage, .514 Slugging Percentage and an OPS of .887. Those are Dunn-like numbers WITHOUT all of the Strike Outs and high salary.

The Reds COULD have gotten Willingham and SHOULD have gotten Willingham for cheap. THEN they would have STILL had prospects and money to fill the OTHER holes on the team.

I simply DO NOT understand the rationale for OVERPAYING for a guy just because he is a BIG name.

Again, how, much would guys like Holliday, Ordonez, Jermaine Dye, Manny R or Burrell cost, both in terms of prospects to either acquire them or money to sign and keep them?

Sure those guys might drive in 20 to 30 more RBI's than Willingham HOWEVER, they would ALSO cost MORE than just a couple of B prospects to trade for and they would cost more than $4 million to sign. So, when you look at what they would cost and compare it to what they would produce, Willingham is the BARGAIN-type player the REds NEED.

Plus, by trading for Willingham and not giving up much to get him or not having to pay much to sign him, he is an EXCELLENT trade chip and an inexpensive, short term stop-gap, IF the guys down in the Minors are ALL that.

ctownboy....you probably know me as RlfPtchr20 better than this name...

seriously though, hes an injury risk. Walt wants to run someone into LF that he knows will be there for the whole season, and not a project at the plate. I heard hes a 29 year old with a 70 year old back...

i could live with bowden and kotteras and something else small, but i can understand now why it would be hard for the sox to make this deal

well i dont no why they would want esposito either, hes really green, he is going into double a and hes only 21 i think, hes a good 2 years atleast from mlb readiness and could go either way. wagner or brown is fine too, i dont care, none of our catching prospects at double a or up are worth much anyway, but atleast george hit 22 bombs last year.

how come you dont like bowden so much?

Taveras to the Reds? Makes perfect sense. A platoon with Corey Patterson!

Dusty must be beside himself with joy ...

ctownboy, willinghams gone so drop it. His #'s for the 3 years you quoted didn't even come close to Dunn's #'s for the same three years in runs rbi's and hr's. Dunn did ko alot more but he also walked more. As for the Big Name, ownership needs someone to draw the fans in. If the big name can also help them win, then we're talkig alot more money to help pay the way. On another note, Stubbs can't even hit Fall league pitching [.185]. Still think He's 2 or more years away from Bigs. Not sure if Colorado trade makes sense,but Atkins could hit just as well in GABP as Coors field.

Wow, I have not realized how bad Atkins' home/road splits have been the past two seasons. Putrid!

2007
Home: .349/.409/.527
Away: .254/.327/.446

2008
Home: .342/.380/.523
Away: .233/.278/.383

I don't technically buy everything that people have to say about Holliday since I believe he is a player entering his prime and his home/road splits closed significantly this year, but as a fan of Atkins I never really looked into the gripes about him as a ''Coors Whore.''

But ironically enough, his power numbers have been better in both years on the road, which leaves the question of exactly his mindset is when he's at the plate at Coors and when he's on the road. He's had far more doubles at home the past two years (perhaps he's reaching for the gaps at Coors) but a lot more home runs and RBI on the road??

"Matt Holliday will be traded to the Mets next summer...the A's will be out of contention and the Mets will need a power RH bat in LF...the A's will get Fernando Martinez, Jon Niese, Eddie Kunz, Jeffrey Marte and Aaron Heilman."

hell yeah sign me up

"Matt Holliday will be traded to the Mets next summer...the A's will be out of contention and the Mets will need a power RH bat in LF...the A's will get Fernando Martinez, Jon Niese, Eddie Kunz, Jeffrey Marte and Aaron Heilman."

Holliday will be a free agent next summer so you wont need to trade for him. I see the Angels aggressively pursuing him as we have coveted him for years.

Atkins numbers at GABP the last 3 years:
40ab 16h 1hr 6rbi .400avg .444obp .650slg 1.094obp
It is just 40 at bats but just saying Atkins could RAKE at GABP.

ReleifPitcher20,

Sorry about the incorrect name.

redand blue,

What troubles me about Ca$htellini is he is ALWAYS looking at things from a PR and marketing perspective.

Pete Rose has said that it doesn't matter WHO the players on the field are, what REALLY matters is WINNING. He says that if you put a winning team on the field the people of Cincinnati will come out and support them.

So instead of going out and getting good baseball players who might be no names, Ca$htellini wants some BIG NAME guys no matter what they cost.

Pete M took over basically the SAME team that Jerry Narron had and improved the record by 20 Games. That wasn't good enough for CDa$htellini. He had to have a BIG NAME Manager and paid Dusty Baker $10.5 million over three years. Teh problem with THAT is Baker can't Manage a team unless it has a steroid abusing cheater in the middle of the line up.

When Baker has to ACTUALLY Manage, as in he has good but not great players or in the Post Season, he sucks and chokes. This is because his teams can NOT play "small ball" very well because all he wants them to do is hit. They are ALSO fundamentally unsound. Just look at last year with the Reds, his last two years with the Cubs and hsi teams' performance in hte Post Season.

If Baker was "all that", the Giants would have brought him back after he took them to the World Series and the Cubs would have kept him and spent the $200 million dollars on new players instead of ditching him and bringing in Piniella.

Since Baker sucks at managing and judging talent (bringing in Corey Patterson and CONTINUING to bat him in the lead off spot even after his Batting Average had sunk to below .200, playing Paul Bako in September when he SHOULD have been playing Ryan Hanigan EVERYDAY so as to see how good or bad he REALLY is), the Reds finished with a record that was only two Games better than it was in 2007. This, even though, the eam ahd more talent (Volquez, Cordero, Votto, Bruce).

As far as Cordero goes, the Reds overpaid for him and gave him a Full No Trade Clause to boot. So, if he falters these next three years, the Reds are either going to be stuck with him OR they are going to have to package him with younger talent OR they are going to have to eat a LOT of his salary to be able to get rid of him.

If the Reds were a LARGE MARKET team with a BIG payroll, mistakes like these wouldn't be so bad because they could just spend money on more players to try and fix it. However, since the Reds are a "small market" team, they have to be careful and NOT go after the expensive, BIG name player that they might get stuck with and who might drag the team down because they have to play him and can't trade him.

This is why I was so high on Willingham. Here is a guy who could have been had for a couple of B level Minor Leaguers. Here is a guy who is going to get $4 million in Salary Arbitration (Ryan Freel makes $4 million in 2009 while Alex Gonzalez is going to be paid over $5 million). Here is a Right Handed power hitter who is a natural Left Fielder; just EXACTLY what Jocketty publicly said the Reds NEEDED.

So he was PERFECT for the Reds. The ONLY problem was he is NOT a BIG name player.

So because the Reds DIDN'T get Willingham, they are going to OVERPAY for a guy like Holliday, Maglio Ordonez, Jermaine Dye, Manny R or Pat Burrell.

Sure those guys can produce more than Willingham however, they will also cost more to acquire, in terms of talent and also in salary. Plus, with guys like that, if they get injured, because of their HUGE salaries, they will be HARD to get rid of.

Then, the Reds will be toast because they will have traded away a LOT of talent to get that player and/or they will have given that guy a LARGE contract which no other team will want.

This is why Willingham getting paid $4 million dollars and having him possibly hit .270 with 20 to 30 Home Runs and 80 to 90 RBI's is a MUCH better idea than trading for or signing one of those other BIG name guys. It is ALSO a better idea than bringing Jerry Hairston Jr back.

I would MUCH rather the Reds have a GOOD and BALANCED team that WINS ball games than a sucky team with a BIG name player or two (i.e. the last eight years with King Griffey Junior and Adam Dunn).

Stegolego7, yeah you normally just take a small sample size like 100 ABs and bam! multiply that by 6 and bam! there's a whole season. You should really be a GM, that's brilliant.

ctownboy....hes not looking at the name...hes looking for consistency. theres a huge difference.

"The perfect cap to what looks to be a good lineup in CO would be a Huston Street trade to STL for Ludwick. That would make this a successful offseason.
Posted by: KansasJayROX"

The Cards already have their closer coming up from AAA this year and I can't see them trading their 2nd best hitter for Houston Street. Though Denver isn't too far from Ludwick's home of Nevada, and you hit at Coors, so Ludwick would probably like the trade.

Talk of Red Sox catching needs is premature.

No way any team out there is willing to sign Varitek for more then 2yr/20million AND give up supplemental picks for his type A status.

Don't see the Sox moving Bowden or Buchholz unless a team is willing to sign Tek and give the Sox a chance at picking up a young starting pitcher via the draft.

After Buchholz/Bowden the Sox lack starting pitching any time soon in the minors.

Call me crazy, but for some reason I see the Sox ending up with Kenji Johjima as their catcher next year.

With Jeff Clement the M's full time catcher of the future and Rob Johnson a much cheaper backup catcher capable of being just as lousy as Johjima, I see the M's trying to shed Johjima's salary this offseason.

Lugo for Johjima? Two below avg. players with bad contracts, but M's could put Lugo at 2B and move Lopez to 1st like they have been suggesting and Sox would get a catcher better then Cash to backup Tek for the next 2 years. (assuming the Sox end up signing Tek to 2/20 like I think they will).

''Lugo for Johjima? Two below avg. players with bad contracts, but M's could put Lugo at 2B and move Lopez to 1st like they have been suggesting and Sox would get a catcher better then Cash to backup Tek for the next 2 years. (assuming the Sox end up signing Tek to 2/20 like I think they will).''

The Mariners want to put Jose Lopez at first base? I think I'm going to throw up. That would be one of the worst offensive infields I've ever seen, especially if Beltre gets traded.

For some reason I don't buy Kenji Johjima's decline. I still feel like he could give you an easy .280/15/75 if he finds a new change of scenery. The rumor has it that Kenji and Ichiro aren't very well-liked (to put it lightly) in Seattle's clubhouse and I think Johjima could still be a starter in this league.