Giants Aggressively Pursuing Manny?

Greeeat, now Boras has someone for the dodgers to bid against.

The Giants probably wouldn't have too hard of a time trading Winn, but Roberts and Rowand are virtually untradeable, yes?

IMO its just Boras doing his thing. Just using teams to drive up the interest in his clients. He knows the Dodgers want him so he wants them to think the Giants ar interesting to drive up their pursuit. Sabean has repeatedly said he is not interested in Manny.

We don't have the money, space, or patience for Manny.

That's right Giants raise the price for them Dodgers.

Like some people have already pointed out here, this might just be a ploy to drive up the price for the Dodgers.

Whatever - I see this as the devil, Boras, creating a smoke screen to drive up the price. He's not going to San Fran.

What were the free agent statuses of Edgar Renteria, Howry, Johnson, and Affeldt.

I thought Affeldt and Johnson were type Bs, and Renteria and Howry were type As. But according to Keith Law, all of them are neither type A or B.

Don't hyperventilate, SF fans. This is neither the first nor last shenanigan in this story. We're going to get the full arsenal of Boras tricks in the next week. Texas, Baltimore, both NY teams, even the unthinkable Red Sox rumor will surface. And then, yes, the Mystery Team's mysterious high bid will set the market to that inevitable midpoint between what Boras initially claimed he wanted for Manny and the figure that any other agent would have been able to get.

That's the whole Boras method. Pick an absurd figure, and then reduce it to a figure that is only a bit less absurd by comparison, and then dupe someone into bidding it. As long as there are two GMs willing to bite, it works. Looks like Scott's got his pawns lined up again.

LOL Waiting for Giants to pull rug out from underneath Boras, ala Angels/Mets. At any rate, if this is a valid SF pursuit at all, It'd be beneficial to NOT have the Dodgers "bidding against themselves" or any thing else that leave a bad taste in Manny's mouth if he didn't get at least the 2/45 original offer.

"I thought Affeldt and Johnson were type Bs, and Renteria and Howry were type As. But according to Keith Law, all of them are neither type A or B."

Affeldt was a Type B and was offered arbitration; Reds get a sandwich pick.

Johnson was a Type B, but he was not offered arbitration, so the DBacks get no compensation.

Howry and Renteria were both Type As, but neither were offered arbitration. Thus, the Giants lose no draft picks.

YFS78--

Rowand isn't nearly that much of a good-glove guy. Winn is more of a good glove guy.

The Giants shouldn't expect any sort of viable return on Rowand. Either a bad-contract for bad contract exchange or a trade in which the Giants get back nothing of value in return.

Might as well sign Bonds.

Rowand is a great outfielder, didnt he win a gold glove or something. The Giants have Brian Wilson for a closer although Howry could do it.
The giants need a bat badly to contend and Manny would be good.

"Howry and Renteria were both Type As, but neither were offered arbitration. Thus, the Giants lose no draft picks."

-melonis rex

Law's free agent tracker on ESPN has neither of them listed a type A or B free agents.

Anyway, considering the Giants lost no type A or B free agents, and they already signed four, which already put them over the limit of signing three, if they sign Manny Ramirez, they would have signed 5 type A or B free agents this offseason.

The Giants are not playing by the rules.

Rowand has been doomed in SF ever since TLR put him up to the plate instead of Pujols in ASG bases loaded down by one bottom 9th situation. Whole world wanted Pujols up there. Argh, wtf? Rowand?! It's been argh ever since.

If the Giants get Manny everyone would just pitch around him like they did Bonds. Who else in that lineup is going to step up?

I knew that something like this was in the works...and although he's getting older, a crappy defensive player, and would get pitched around. There is no question that Manny would make the Giants the team to beat out west.

Btw: Brian Wilson IS our closer next year. Howry and Affeldt are NOT, so all you people who are questioning that, just stop.

"Tim - I would imagine Winn actually has plus trade value, right? A .300 hitter that can give you decent defense (Actually...not sure about that one) with 10 HRs each season, the Cubs, Mets, White Sox, Yankees, etc could all be in on him, right?"

Winn is a solid all around player with great D. He is very underrated.

Thanks Lincecum, I didn't know if his defense had faded over the year.

""Tim - I would imagine Winn actually has plus trade value, right? A .300 hitter that can give you decent defense (Actually...not sure about that one) with 10 HRs each season, the Cubs, Mets, White Sox, Yankees, etc could all be in on him, right?""

Winn's defense is pretty good. He's not one of those bat-only types.

Cubs would make so much sense for Winn. Mitigates the crappy defense Soriano provides. As would White Sox (put Winn in CF).

bball

Winn only has 1 year left on his contract and I think they would have to free up some money for Manny. Winn would be missed at the top of the order, but I'd much rather have Manny than Winn. Plus Nate Schierholtz should be taking over RF.

Rowand has slipped but he's still better than anybody elsethis team has or is coming up from the minors. Rowand or Winn has to stay because Lewis can't play CF and Roberts=part time player. Plus with a Manny signing one outfielder has to be traded or cut.

Well if the Giants do sign Man-NY, as opposed to the Yanks, how about Rowand (8/44 mil) for LF/RF Nady (1/5 mil, arb elig), SP-Igawa AAA (14-6, 3.45 whip 1.13)owed 3/12 mil, CF-Melky Cabrera and 1B-Juan Miranda (25/AAA/.287/.384 w/ 12hr, 52 rbis in 356 at bats)

If Melky/Gardner aren't getting the job done in center by July then they'd call the Giants. Ask about Rowand, and if they want Melky, Nady, Miranda they'd most likely turn to Winn for 2 prospects as a stop gap in center field.

C Bengie Molina
FB Travis Ishikawa/John Bowker
SB Kevin Fransden/Eugenio Velez
TB Pablo Sandoval
SS Edgar Renteria/Emmanuel Burriss
LF Manny Ramirez
CF Aaron Rowand/Dave Roberts
RF Nate Schierholtz

SP1 Tim Lincecum
SP2 Matt Cain
SP3 Randy Johnson
SP4 Barry Zito
SP5 Jonathan Sanchez

CP1 Brian Wilson
SU1 Jeremy Affeldt
SU2 Bob Howry

Any Comments, Ideas, Concerns?

According to this, there are no FA limit rules this year because of the amount of players who filed(171).

http://baseball.suite101.com/article.cfm/baseball_free_agency_rules

Roberts has little trade value, he is due 6.5 million in 2009 and outside of sentimental value from his 2004 playoff heroics with that clutch SB vs the Yanks, can't even think of why Boston would want him as a 4th with him always hurt now and Drew is the resident DL outfielder on that team.. 1 is enough..

Isn't it interesting that when a real CF'ers name comes up that all of a sudden that Cabrera/Gardner are tossed aside for the Yankee future?

Winn and Sanchez

for

Lowell, Lugo, and A minor League Pitcher

Red Sox need a 4th outfeilder which could be Winn...and the giants need a 3rd baseman...Mike Lowell

Red Sox sign Dunn and put him at first.

YanksFanSince78...
The trade proposal you made of Melky, Nady, Miranda, and Igawa for Rowand doesn't make much sense to me as the Yankees would be giving up on a young outfielder with potential in Melky Cabrera, an outfielder who could net them a bounty of prospects in Xavier Nady, a former slugger in Cuba who showed flashes here in the US in Juan Miranda, and an expensive number 5 NL starter at best in Igawa (who the Giants wouldn't want due to money situations)just for Aaron Rowand? A guy who hit only 13 hrs last year? I dont think the Yankees would want that type of player although he does play great defensively. considering they would have to give up so much according to your deal i think they best stand pat than make a move for him. If it were a deal similar to what we were going to give up for Mike Cameron, say Melky Cabrera and Kei Igawa plus something small, i would do it instantly but to give up on Juan Miranda and Xavier Nady like that just doesn't make sense to me and i doubt Cashman would even consider doing it.

Reffrenced article: "The Giants, the NL West's most active team this winter, are quietly making an aggressive play for free agent Manny Ramirez, according to a major-league source."

Waving the BS Flag now---Out of market writer citing the un-named source.
Kthnxbai.

I don't see a link to the actual story. It would be nice to see if the comments were taken out of context.

"Winn and Sanchez for
Lowell, Lugo, and A minor League Pitcher"

why dont you throw lincecum in that package while you're at it??

Ahhhhhh...Mr. John S. Hatertude. I wondered where you were? Happy New Year. No, the whole re-building isn't being tossed out. The Yanks are set to lose several OF's next year to FA (Damon, Nady, Matsui). If they were to make this deal then Gardner becomes the 4th OF with a mix like (Matsui DH, Damon LF, ROwand CF and Swisher RF). After 09 Rowand, Gardner and Austin Jackson become the base of restructuring the OF. I still feel Gardner can be a good CF/leadoff guy, but he still has to prove it. So does Ajax. Rowand and Swisher can be good building blocks. If Gardner or Ajax prove themselves you can slide one of the three to LF.

why would Boras keep this a secret when his whole purpose with manny to is tom make a bidding war. the giants said they dont want manny already

I like this either way, drive the price up for the Dodgers, or take the best player on the market for practically 1/3 the price he was trying to go for.

Zack,

The kids are going play. This team has to go young, but still try to be competitive to keep butt's in the seats.

Rolling

I'd like to see Burriss at 2B next year. I think he'll be better than Fradsen and my 9 year old has a better baseball IQ than Velez.

YanksFanSince78...
The trade proposal you made of Melky, Nady, Miranda, and Igawa for Rowand doesn't make much sense to me as the Yankees would be giving up on a young outfielder with potential in Melky Cabrera, an outfielder who could net them a bounty of prospects in Xavier Nady, a former slugger in Cuba who showed flashes here in the US in Juan Miranda, and an expensive number 5 NL starter at best in Igawa (who the Giants wouldn't want due to money situations)just for Aaron Rowand? A guy who hit only 13 hrs last year? I dont think the Yankees would want that type of player although he does play great defensively. considering they would have to give up so much according to your deal i think they best stand pat than make a move for him. If it were a deal similar to what we were going to give up for Mike Cameron, say Melky Cabrera and Kei Igawa plus something small, i would do it instantly but to give up on Juan Miranda and Xavier Nady like that just doesn't make sense to me and i doubt Cashman would even consider doing it.
__________________________

Juan Miranda might become a good hitter one day but it won't be w/ the Yanks. Teixeira basically killed any idea of that and I can't see him being the DH either with Matsui there this year and possibly Posada being there next year. Plus there are much better proven DH types available next year. Melky is my boy and I have no problem going with a Melky/Gardner combo but I do think Rowand is a better upgrade over him and a better option, IMO, than Cameron. And he wouldn't neccesarily block Gardner from getting 400 at-bats next year. Igawa's is simply a dump for us. The Yanks are taking on Rowand's 44 mil owed and giving SF about 20 mil after arb increases. He probably wouldn't even make the SF staff unless a couple of guys went down, but who knows maybe the change of scenery and a switch to the NL might help him?

Swisher might be on the way down if pitchers have figured out the holes in his swing. Not every player's career ends in old age or injuries.

Zack I agree. As a Giants fan I'm excited to see what the kids can do.

Winn's contract calls for limited no-trade clause 2008-09 (Winn may block deals to 10 clubs. Got this from Cott's. Anybody know how to find out which teams?

i think the 'no trade list' is private with the club, unless it is leaked.

rowand had a NTC for '08, but the rest of his contract is just limited

i dont think he can change it whenever he wants because it would basically be a full no trade clause, right?

There's been no reason for other fans to pay attention to the Giants, so here's tiny primer:

The Giants signed Rowand to a big free agent contract...he is their centerfielder. He had an off year with the bat in 2008. There's not the slightest hint from anybody in the organization that they'd trade him or even consider using somebody like Roberts in some sort of platoon. It doesn't matter whether they overpaid to get Rowand...he's the centerfielder. They aren't trying to trade him to make room for Ramirez or anything.

Winn's a professional ... he hit over .300 and drove in runs in a really really weak lineup in '08. People who mention him and Roberts in the same breath, as though they're the same type player, haven't followed Winn's career. He was often the only true big leaguer in the lineup in '08. They'd trade him, but...why? It's hitters they need and he's a hitter. His contract is too big to make him marketable to start with.

The Giants are stuck with Roberts and he's stuck behind, unproven outfielders like Nate Schierholtz. Fred Lewis is the everyday leftfielder. Sabean says Lewis is their guy because he can hit at the top of the order or in the middle. Roberts is a guy who could get his outright release if younger guys play well.

Oh...Lewis is really fast, but he's not at all a base-stealer. He gets a terrible jump ... gets picked off. And, while he's the leftfielder on my favorite team...he's also a weak defender. Other than that...he's got physical tools and he looks good in a uniform.

The idea of spending Ramirez-type monoey on Dunn and Crede particularly doesn't make sense. Dunn's a lefthand power hitter who would likely view cavernous AT&T Park as the last place he'd want to play 81 games. I believe his batting average in SF shows he just doesn't hit here. The Giants made an attempt to get Crede last winter when he was coming off the back injury. They passed and, really, they figure that they're OK with Sandoval at third and some platoon at first base. (Sandoval's a hitter who should be a catcher or at first base, but the Giants have to believe until they see if their second 2008 first-round draft pick Conor Gillespie's going to become a big leaguer.)

Everything the Giants do now to the lineup is done with their belief that Buster Posey's going to make it to the big leagues very quickly. He was their first No. 1 in 2008...he's a catcher...he could, I think, play a corner infield spot if they decided to keep Molina behind the plate for a year or something once Posey's in the big leagues. Sabean sounds like they count on Posey making it to the big leagues this year. So...don't just list the anticipated everyday lineup...put Posey at the top of the lineup with a question mark as his position...then list a lineup...that's what the Giants are looking at as we wonder if they'd really sign Ramirez.

Sabean says he expects the free agent field to develop late and offer "bargains" like, as the San Francisco Chronicle's Henry Schulman pointed out Wednesday, they got in Reggie Sanders and David Bell in the spring of 2002. They signed them around spring training time for very affordable deals.

So...this market's making it a lot harder for Dunn, Pat Burrell, Bobby Abreu and even Ramirez to get anywhere near the cash or the years they expected. So...sure...the Giants would sign Ramirez if he becomes what they consider a bargain given his overall value.

It's silly to say, "The Giants would NEVER sign Ramirez," because...the NL West's weak and a hitter could put them over the top. And, don't forget, these are tough economic times and folks aren't going to flock to AT&T Park just to soak the ambience by the bay to watch a 75-win team...ownership must realize they need to win games to attract fans in between Lincecum's starts...and Randy Johnson's starts as he chases those five wins to get to No. 300.

Oh...and...yeah...Brian Wilson's not only THE closer..he was on the NL All-Star team.

It's a commentary on the state of the Giants that people across the country have had no reason to pay the slightest attention to them.

But...one sentence at the end of a notes column in the Denver Post about Ramirez gets them national attention.

"he's a catcher...he could, I think, play a corner infield spot if they decided to keep Molina behind the plate for a year or something once Posey's in the big leagues."

While I agree, he could easily move from behind the dish (played SS even before he moved to catcher), I'd think if he makes it to the majors, Molina is gone, or I guess Molina is the one to move (1B? terrifying to imagine him trying to man the field). With Posey not being a catcher for long, I'd think the Giants want him to get as much action there as possible.

This move doesn't happen. Manny is not coming to the Giants because they aren't going to pay him $22M a year. One little blurb in the Denver Post from a "Major League Source". Come on. Sounds like that major league source is Boras. Even the Dodgers who have lost everybody won't give Manny more than 2 years. Boras wants a longer contract for Manny. Total smoke screen

That Lowell/Lugo/minor leaguer for Sanchez/Winn deal is insane. Where would Lugo play, exactly? Why would the Giants take on his contract? Why would they give up Sanchez for one year of a banged-up Lowell? Why?

If the Giants traded for Lowell, it'd be for someone like Kevin Pucetas. They're not giving up Sanchez that easily.

Manny for 2 years, would lock up the division.

Dodgers look to be our only competition this year and without Manny they'd return to mediocre status.

Getting Manny is going to force us to trade a Winn, Lewis or Scherholtz.

Ideally I'd like to keep Lewis and move him to RF.

Winn is a great player, but I'd take Lewis and Manny over him anyday.

Manny would hold back Scherholtz, but the guy is still fairly young and would get a handful of ABs off the bench as a defensive replacement for Manny, PHer, injury sub.

Other than Nate, he wouldn't be blocking any of our top position prospects over the next couple seasons.

The Roberts problem will work itself out.

Might as well give it a shot.

If the Phillies could come out of no where and win the Series then why not a Giants team with better pitching and Manny??

Kfer, agreed that "major league source" could easily be Boras, so I will wait eagerly for Sabean to issue a flat denial of this story . . . but paying Manny $20-22 million a year for two years to fill the seats, after they move some salary through a Rowand move ($12 million offset) isn't as far-fetched as it may have seemed weeks ago.

Buck,
I truely don't think they will move Rowand via trade. He seems to be the only clubhouse stability, despite his subpar season at the plate. Bengie and Win will be gone next year or possibly at the trade deadline, so you would be relying on Manny as the veteren presence in the clubhouse. Don't see it happening. I wouldn't mind Manny, especially if it takes him out of the hands of the Dodgers, but this guy is holding out for his last big contract. Someone will give it to him and I don't think its a great move for the Giants.

Hi have a trade that might help both teams,Giants send either Roland/ or Winn with Jack Tascher and John Bowker to the Yankees for Swisher/or Nady and Robinson Cano. Yhe Yankees would have a CF a good LH reliever, and with Bowker a good utility 1b outfielder, the giants could put either Nady or Swisher at 1b, Cano at 2nd base,any thoughts

It's too bad, leave it to Sabean to stand in the way of justice. I'd hate to see Manny get what he wants, it'd just reinforce his behavior. Next thing you know every punk in baseball quits on his team in order to get a better contract. Maybe it won't get that bad, but once is enough.

"Swisher improved from '05 to '06 to '07. he was unlucky with his BABIP at .250, he had a down year at 28"

Swisher is probably THE most valuable utility guy in the game at this moment as long as the Yankees can get him enough AB's rotating him from corner OF spots, 1B and DH to keep him happy, the guy is good enough to start for an awful lot of teams and the Yank's will miss him dearly if/WHEN Matusi and/or Damon go down with an injury. I agree fully and think that his 2008 was just a porr season and he'll bounce back fully with a 350+ AB season which they should be able to provide him with, he's just too good of a hitter and don't buy into that 'full of holes swing" since not all pitchers do not have that kind of control.

That was a pretty hilarious trade proposal involving Lugo and Lowell plus that infamous "minor league pitcher" we all love to read about here.. As far as to where Lugo would play for the Giants (or anywhere else for that matter) maybe some AAA team would be my suggestion.