Buchholz And Bowden On Boston Rotation

The Sox need to deal Penny now while his value is close to its peak. Don't use the "Bronson Arroyo" excuse as a reason to not do it. The depth the Sox have right now if far greater than they did when they dealt Arroyo, and they traded him for a project without options in Wily Mo Pena.

Penny wears down at the end of the season. Make a deal, get a useful piece back, and give Buccholz a shot.

Here's what Theo has to say to Buchholz:
"TOO BAD! You blew your chance when you were too scared to throw your fastball last year. Now you have to wait in the minors until we're ready for you, not vice versa."

Buchholz and Lowrie to get Hanley Ramirez back... I'd give up Buch for him, I'd hate to see Buch go, but if he does go, we need a major stud back in return. Buch is argueably one of the top 3 minor leaguers in the whole league...

im a huge Sox fan, but Buchholz and Lowrie for Hanley isnt even close to enough..

i do agree that Penny is overvauled but still think the Sox should see what they can get for him and get Buchholz back in the rotation

I forgot...
"Buch is argueably one of the top 3 minor leaguers in the whole league..."
That could be true, but Hanley is a top 3 player in all of the MAJORS and is still incredibly young as plays the most premium of positions.

"They would ask for Buchholtz, Bard, Lowrie, and Ellsbury. You can count on that."

Umm, they would ask for a hell lot more than that. Lester, Buch would be the starting point.

I forgot to add this:

Florida isn't really a good match, anyway, because they have some great pitching depth in the way of prospects & young guys. Sure, everyone could use a guy like Buchholtz, but they need position players a lot more.

Florida will surely sell off Hanley when his FA comes around, but I don't think that's going to happen this early in the process.

No matter how many times his name is posted or the fact that it's at the top of this very page people still spell Buchholz with a goddamn T at the end...

Sorry fitz - I did it twice.

But on the other hand, if bad spelling in blog comments is going to anger you, you probably need to find a new hobby, since you're never going to win that battle. :)

the Hanley talk is pointless anyway.. hes not getting traded.. hes signed long term to a team friendly deal and is now the face of the franchise for the Marlins new stadium

i'd also ask these Sox fans that are asking me as a Phils fans why I think Donald is any good wouldn't they say the same thing about a struggling Lars Anderson? Should the Sox sell him off LOW now or hold onto him a bit and see if he rebounds? At the end of last year wasn't he going to soon force Youklis' move to 3rd after Lowell leaves at the end of his contract?

All of these posts with Hanley talks start w/ Buchholz, Lester, Pedroia the world... blah blah blah...

Just stop.

Boston is not giving up Lester and Hanley is still cheap through 2011... even for the Marlins.

Theo has already said he wouldn't trade Buchholz or Bowden unless they get a stud positional prospect in return... a Smoak from the Rangers or an A. Escobar from the Brewers type.

Besides, Penny and Smoltz are one year rentals and Wake is turning 58 next year. The kids time will come.

philWSchamps -

Like midtown said, you're about a month late on that Lars post.

Besides, Donald's almost 25 and his ceiling has already been realized... a nice utility infielder.

The primadonish Mr. Buchholz has been reading to many of his press clippings, of late. He was what 5 -9 in 2008? Whether pitching regularly in Pawtucket in 2009 or riding the pine in Boston he wiil get the same money in 2009, so, where is he better off? Son, win 15-16 games at Pawtucket then go talk to Theo and Tito about your future.

As for Lars Anderson, he needs to have a strong 2nd half at Portland in 2009, then a .300+/30hr/110rbi season at Pawtucket in 2010 before tackling major league pitching in the regular season. Anything less in the way of seasoning may turn this filet mignon player in chuck steak before he is ready to garnish the plate at Fenway Park.

As for Buchholz, if the Sox trade him the best idea is to throw him in a package to get A. Gonzalez from SD. They want young, cheap arms, the Red Sox have a boat load of prospects who are blocked and AG fits the Red Sox future plans. Will SD give him up? Who knows, but if Buchholz is the centerpiece of an offer I bet they would listen.

Posted by: CircusFresh | June 15, 2009 at 11:46 AM

I think the Padres are going to look into trading him, as much as I dont like it. But Blanks struggled at the plate when they tried him in the outfield, but he is settling now that they are using him solely at first. So they are going to have to make a choice in the future, but not right now thats for sure. Adrian is basically pitched around right now in our lineup, leading the league in walks... But I think the only way the Padres trade him is if they can get two high impact arms + which is a lot to give up.

"Braves overpaid for Lowe. I don't see anyone taking a 36 year old starter w/ a 4+ ERA in a pitchers park and 3+ years and 50+ million left on that contract."

Yeah they over-paid for him but if they traded him they would eat proabally 4mil a year and b4 yesterday his era was 3.47 on the road. Yeah he's 36 but you have to remember that he didn't become a starter until later in his career. On average his arm has the mileage of a 30yr old.

AirmanSD -

I agree... while it would kill whatever fanbase SD has left, his trade value is at an all-time high given his production and contract. The longer you wait, the less teams will give up w/ FA lurking in the future. Besides, all do respect to SD, they're not going to be contending anytime soon. Why waste Gonzo's talent now and let him walk in three years when you can build for the future now.

He could net a bigger return than what Texas got from Atlanta for Teixeira.

Buchholz, Masterson + prospects to SD for AG. That would be my guess, but I do believe Theo would have to give up a top position prospect as well.

Posted by: CircusFresh | June 15, 2009 at 12:21 PM

I dont know the Red Sox system well enough to speculate what the Padres would want. But two high upside arms (with a left-hander wanted considering every package for Peavy had us asking for LHP) and a outfielder with speed and athleticism, give or take depending on the quality of the prospects.

As for Lars Anderson, he needs to have a strong 2nd half at Portland in 2009, then a .300+/30hr/110rbi season at Pawtucket in 2010 before tackling major league pitching in the regular season. Anything less in the way of seasoning may turn this filet mignon player in chuck steak before he is ready to garnish the plate at Fenway Park.

WOW I really wish there was a criteria to post on mlbtraderumors.

One- I don't recall the last prospect to have a line like that in a year, especially since they play about 25 games less than the majors. So basically Anderson would need 1+ RBIs per game....Easy enough

Two- If Anderson is hitting .315 18HR 60RBIs through 70 games, do you think he will stay at Pawtucket.....well I guess since the red sox are all slugging about 1.026 they would not want this lowely kid slugging the same on the MAJOR league team.

Penny for F Pie. LOL!

Penny sucks.

The Rangers have a ton of high ceiling pitching prospects but limited SS. Andrus is their SS of the future with no one to take over for him if he is dealt. Keep in mind they are leading their divisions and not looking to sell.

I'd be completely fine with the Sox selling the farm for a player like AGon, but if we're starting the package with two of Buchholz, Bowden and Masterson, the only combination I'm okay with is the latter two. We're going to be losing Penny and Smoltz at the end of the year and its always possible Wakefield retires. That would leave us with Beckett, Lester and Daisuke. I'm not comfortable banking on one of Bowden or Masterson as a member of our 2010 starting rotation, not without a good plan B. I would be willing to take my chances with Buchholz at this point though.

theJonathan -

Boomer's right... Texas is not trading their starting SS w/ a 6.7 UZR and replacing him with Vizquel.

They're in 1st and Hamilton will eventually return.

Smoak is the only guy in their system that makes sense for both sides if they want Buchholz.

"We know the Pads are publicly struggling with money, but I have to think that with Gonzalez' contract he is one of the 5 most valuable/untradeable players in the entire league"

Considering he is only under team control for two more seasons after this one, I would think that his untradeability is somewhat diminished. While being on the hook for only a couple of years is appealing when signing aging veterans, it is not as appealing when the prize is an affordable power hitter who can field his position and the cost is a boatload of even more affordable prospects. For a team that probably won't contend in the next two seasons, moving him might be in the best interests of the franchise.

2008 - OKC of the PCL:

Nelson Cruz
383 AB
.342 AVG
37 HR
99 RBI
OPS: 1124 !

So it does happen now & then :)

"Considering he is only under team control for two more seasons after this one, I would think that his untradeability is somewhat diminished. While being on the hook for only a couple of years is appealing when signing aging veterans, it is not as appealing when the prize is an affordable power hitter who can field his position and the cost is a boatload of even more affordable prospects. For a team that probably won't contend in the next two seasons, moving him might be in the best interests of the franchise."

In a vacuum, sure, a team is going to want more than 2.5 years controllability on a guy if they have to empty the prospect cupboard

But in recent history, what blockbuster trades have gone down when the star had MORE than 2.5 years remaining on their deal as Gonzales does? Just look at what ATL gave up for Teix. BAL for Bedard. Haren was 2.5 years away I believe....but that was an almost unprecedented deal

Gonzalez is so cheap for those 2.5 years though. I think that's about as good as it gets in terms of contracts for a guy who could be feasibly traded

"Smoak and Teagarden for Buchholz and Penny! Texas gets 2 starters as they try to hold off the Angels(yes, they need 2) without losing a starter while Sox get 2 players for the future!"

I agree that we need some pitching help this year in order to keep winning...but that would be a terrible trade for Texas. As a Ranger fan I dont know if I would even give up Smoak for Buchholz straight up because of how good he is doing in AA and how bad Davis has been so far this year.

But throw in Teagarden in and yall throw in Penny?...wow, never gonna happen!!! Penny isn't putting up attractive numbers in Boston so I dont even want to see what they would be in the second half in Texas.

Smoak and Teagarden for Buchholz and Penny! Texas gets 2 starters as they try to hold off the Angels(yes, they need 2) without losing a starter while Sox get 2 players for the future!

Posted by: RED SOX DYNASTY! | June 15, 2009 at 02:03 PM

Not sure how this makes a lot of sense for the Sox (Value wise I think the Rangers would want more too). Smoak is good and probably better than Anderson but....hardly worth giving up Buchholz to have 2, 1st base power hitters in the organization that can't hit lefties.

That would be a good way to jam up the organization at 1 spot and ignore the needs at others.

Teagarden makes sense, but Buchholz is worth more than him and while Smoak has good value; he wouldn't be worth trading for only to block Anderson; since Anderson/Smoak both have an equal chance of turning out or not at this point.

*again, Buchholz/Penny wouldn't yield Smoak/Teargarden anyways*

Texas will not trade Smoak for Bucholz.

Saying Smoak is like Botts would be like saying Buchholz is Todd Van Poppel. There is nothing in Smoak's young career to suggest that he will be anything like Jason Botts.

Ludicrous.

"That amounts to a .209 AVG. He is killing Right Handed pitching without question"

So it is fair to say that Lars Anderson is such an inferior product because Smoak struggles vs lefties then? What if Anderson's problems were against lefties also and he rakes righties, what would you say then??

Lars is just 11 for 53 with -0- HR vs lefties, but is doing better vs righties at 43 for 155 with his 7 HR and that is counting the terrible start to the season he began with.

The red sox could give up bowden .buch lars chris carter and manny delcarmen for hanley.

I know if I was florida iwould do this move in a heart beat

Boston does not need the Rangers catchers any longer is the major thing JH32, not that Penny is worth Teagarden (you are right, Penny is certainly worth far less).

Boston has Mark Wagner at AA, hitting .325, 438OBP and .524Slg and 962OPS, he is also a defensive specialist and 25 years old.

The 7th round pick last year, Tim Federowicz is hitting .340 .374OBP .560SLG and a 910OPS at A ball, the high A Ball catcher is also doing well, as is the other catcher that is splitting catcher/DH duties with Federowicz.

Catching now in the Sox farm system is now in very good shap and with Varitek's bat doing good for this year, there is -0- need for an immediate upgrade with help on the way, the Sox actually have a LOGJAM of catchers at the moment, all the way back to the GCL Rookie ball team.

Not trying to take anything away from the Ranger's catching luxury, but Boston has no need anymore to over pay with regards to premium pitching that they may have had an inclination to do before the season began, when Wagner rebounded at AA this year, the high draft pick catchers they made last year really excelled and Exposito at high A ball continued to greatly improve.

While I agree, overall, with your assessment of Penny's value, YFS78, you're forgetting one thing:

The bullpen is already too crowded to shove Penny or Smoltz in there. If we put one of them in there, we either have to trade Saito or Delcarmen or send Bard down to AAA (He's the only guy in the pen with options). Odds are, any one of those moves would be downgrading the bullpen.

As much as people like to go on and on about the "can never have too much pitching" addage, especially since 2006, Boston's current situation is a testament both for and against it.

In the positive, yeah, having that ridiculous depth probably saved Boston's season. If we didn't have Penny, we'd probably be in third place right now with the extremely slow starts from Lester and Beckett, Penny stepping up for a while has really bailed us out.

Now that Beckett and Lester are coming around and Buchholz is dominating AAA hitters, though, it's a problem. If Penny was serving up meatballs and getting rocked, that's one thing. He's cheap to a large market team. He gets lit up, you just drop him. But the way he's performing the last month, you can't just give him away for nothing and you can't just release him outright for fear of the other shoe dropping. That said, he's still blocking Buchholz who, if he lingers in AAA much longer, could very well start getting bored and become complacent and complacency was his biggest problem last season.

I just wish Theo would stick Matsuzaka on the DL already. The guy's clearly tired and still hurting from the early use in the WBC. Throwing him on the DL pretty much solves half of the team's current problems. You DL him in time for Smoltz and stand pat with Penny until a good deal comes along or he falls apart. If he falls apart, you can DFA him without much crying about it (And if we're not going to get much out of him in trade, it's not like we missed an opportunity by holding onto him), if he doesn't, maybe he'll get Type B status and earn us a draft pick.

Penny isn't worth much I will be shocked if the Donald rumors had any truth to them at all.

Midtown
I think that Daisuke's shortcomings this season have been exaggerated because he has been pressured to pitch to contact.

The problem is he is only half committed, which is understandable considering he is an expert at his style of nibbling and a relative novice at any kind of economical pitching.

If the Sox can accept that for the time being he can pitch 5 shutout innings with 115 pitches, I think he will mature with time.

"Meanwhile, the Yankees get spanked by the lowly Nationals"

3-2 is spanked?

You people who are just bashing Penny are absurd. His ERA is below 5. He is 6-2 now. Has thrown increasingly better nearly every single week. You can throw out whatever numbers you want, but I have watched him. His velocity has steadily increased from the low 90's to 98, and his control has improved while that's been going on.. I am not sure what he has to do to make you people say he doesn't suck.

On another related point, MorneauVP, you have commented on nearly every single board about how the Red Sox control the media...what the hell are you on? I mean I have heard tons of ridiculous conspiracies but really? Get a frickin life buddy.

YanksFanSince78, you are probably the most astute Yankees fan I have come across in all the message boards I've seen. Penny and Wake are arguably the best #3/#4 starter tandem in baseball, and trading Penny is one of the worst things the Sox could do right now. I bet his ERA settles in around 4.3 and he ends up 14-8 (due to several no decisions from only pitching 6 innings most games) on the year. Any #4 AL starters better than that? Johns and others point out the real (and, frankly, only) problem with the Boston staff: Dice-K. Unfortunately, I do not think they can DL him again, nor do I think DFA is possible. Also, he would be a disaster in the pen. Therefore, they are stuck with him as their #6 starter. Sad but true, and Bard must be optioned to AAA. Bard, Buchholz and Bowden will all be in Boston on September 1, and all 3 will be with the big club for '10, but for now they'll have to deal with Pawtucket for another 2 months.

Boston is the 4th highest payroll. And it is considerably lower than the #1 team and pretty much average among the remaining larger markets. So the Boston spends more money like the Yankees excuse does not work.

Yankees 201 million
Mets 135
Cubs 135
SOX 122
Tigers 115

Cot's Contracts has Boston as the 6th highest payroll going into the season. Yanks, Mets, Cubs, Phils, and Tigers are all ranked ahead of them.

As for the Sox not using their prospects: Pedroia, Youk, Papelbon, Lester, Ellsbury, Delcarmen, Masterson, Kottaras, Bard, and Lowrie all say hi...

"Poor Boston prospects can't crack the rotation of the second highest payroll team who typically trades kids for seasoned vets."

God this is ignorant! Anyone with a passing familiarity with Google could disprove the first part (as several have already done). And I can't recall a single example of Theo "trading kids for seasoned vets," if by kids, you mean prospects who are actually going to have an impact in the bigs.

If anything, he's staunchly opposed to such trades, as the current roster and last winter's non-trades attest.

Penny is worth a top 100 prospect straight up right now. Probably not a Smoak but a top 100 prospect is realistic. He is one of the best starting pitching options available this year. He's healthy, throwing 98 MPH. He's coming off 13 innings in a row of no earned runs allowed. Don't underestimate him. I think the sox will keep him but if they do trade him it will not be cheap.

Also, If Texas wouldn't trade Smoak for Buchholz they would be missing out. Buchholz has had a better track record overall. Consistently great in the minors and some success in the majors. Smoak hasn't even played a full year yet has he in the minors. I'd take Buchholz in a heartbeat just because his position is more valueable and he is at the top of all prospects at his position.