Mets Notes: Adrian Gonzalez, Marquis, DeRosa

I'm not sure what's dumber...fan proposals for Gonzalez that aren't enough, or journalist proposals for Gonzalez that aren't enough.

That is not an offer to "consider", unless you mean "laugh at and hang up on".

Fernando Martinez
Ike Davis
Wilmer Flores
Jon Niese
Jenrry Mejia

for Gonzalez

Now the Padres at least listen

" Noble believes a package of John Maine, Fernando Martinez and Ike Davis "and perhaps more would be one to consider seriously." "

Gotta love how Noble loves to knock other people's trade ideas yet this one is so hilarious I can't stop laughing.

I agree that it would take more, perhaps Ruben Tejada and one of the Mets top pitching prospects in addition to those three. I do, however, think the Mets would offer more than the Sox, as Boston values its own prospects higher than New York does.

lol look at all the redsox fans commenting saying NO HE'S GOING TO THE RED SOX AND THE RED SOX COULD BLOW THE METS AWAY WITH AN OFFER...I think that this offer would get a deal done and I don't think any team would be willing to match it...
f-mart,davis,niese,flores, and parnell
(and no redsox fans..
Buccholz and lars anderson does not match that offer LOL)

I would love to have A-Gon on the Mets, 35+ home run power. It could happen...but BoSox have better prospects to offer

I wonder what people on this board were saying when the Mets were looking to trade for Santana.

I'm not saying those packages are great but they are not as bad as people make them out to be. The players the Mets would offer the Padres for Gonzalez ARE BETTER than what the Twins got for Santana. And guess what? Johan is playing for the Mets so anything is possible..and i'll be 1st to say i never thought the Mets had enough talent to get Santana. Maine, F-Mart and Ike are better than what the Twins got.

And yet the issue with your argument, Moses, is that you forgot the part where the two biggest suitors for Johan, the Yankees and the Red Sox, who were offering far better packages, backed out and told the Twins to go stuff it.

The Twins got stuck with the Mets as the only interested party. So they took what they could.

what a joke of a trade proposal. does marty noble really get paid to write such nonsense?

maybe the redsox can get A-Gon for bowden+redick. maybe the yanks can get him for gardner+kennedy.

Not to be mean, but I really hope Howard was being sarcastic in writing this, Noble doesn't seem to have much of a mixture of information and wit.

"lol look at all the redsox fans commenting saying NO HE'S GOING TO THE RED SOX AND THE RED SOX COULD BLOW THE METS AWAY WITH AN OFFER...I think that this offer would get a deal done and I don't think any team would be willing to match it...
f-mart,davis,niese,flores, and parnell
(and no redsox fans..
Buccholz and lars anderson does not match that offer LOL)"

While I agree with you that it is annoying when every Red Sox fan says he is coming to Boston, and that is coming from a Red Sox fan, the fact that you try and make fun of the Red Sox farm system at the end makes no sense to me. Buchholz proved himself in the second half of the season to be a quality pitcher in a very tough division. There was a stretch where he went head to head against C.C. Sabathia, Roy Halladay, and Justin Verlander and held his own. Granted its only a half a season of baseball to build off of I really think it was his coming out party. None of the players you mentioned above have proven anything. They are good prospects don't get me wrong but there are a lot of teams out there with better prospects that could top that offer. As a Mets fan as I said earlier you should be rooting for your team to rebuild your farm system back up to become a better organization. When your team suffered all those injuries it showed a lack of depth in your system so you should be looking to hold onto your prospects and build around them. The Mets should NOT be looking to trade the few prospects they do have yet with Omar Minaya, I wouldn't be surprised.

But it got the job done and there is no question that Davis, F-Mart and Maine alone are better than what the Twins got...thats the point. We havent mentioned a Meija, Holt, Niese or Flores yet and people are saying it cant be done.

Do people even realize that the the Mets have 5 players in BA's top 100 prospects? Before that they had maybe 5 or 6 total the last 3 years.

im 90% sure that howard was being sarcastic when calling this peice of trash "must reading" and Marty Noble as "incomparable."

@metsfan(sigh)

Ok so remind me again why Fernando Martinez is supposed to be the headliner in a deal, yet Lars Anderson (who would be a complimentary piece, and one that wouldn't be in a deal for Gonzalez because they have Blanks) is basically called a scrub because of one bad season in the minors? Fernando Martinez is not some can't miss prospect, the guy has been very inconsistent and I find it very hypocritcal that you continue to knock Lars (based on one down season), yet act like Martinez is some guaranteed stud.

Again, you ignore another important fact, Moses:

Maine and F-Mart can't stay healthy. Niese just got hurt and, from what I understand, was an injury concern previous to the injury.

So, imagine you are Jed Hoyer. You get a call from Omar Minaya. Those 3 names are the first 3 names that come out of his mouth. You mean to tell me that you wouldn't hang up quicker than Minaya can say Hello?

I'm not denying the potential of Davis/all the other players you listed. Fact is, the padres want MAJOR LEAGUE READY, HEALTHY prospects. Not injury prone players, or players whom have yet to achieve their potential.

This time around, the Red Sox wouldn't just go running for the hills if the Padres asked for extra. You're not getting Johan Sanatna, a pitcher who was turning 30 and was demanding a big contract. You're trading for a 27 year old slugger who positively tore it up while playing in a division where every ballpark was essentially a pitcher's park, making it hard to generate home run numbers. Imagine his numbers in a ballpark like Fenway.

Yeah Pads will want at least 5 players probably in return for Gonzo. I mean unless you can come up with 2-3 proven players. But with how the budget looks I'd say its more likely to be mainly youth for the farm

then omit that from what i said. the rest of my point stands, however.

I never said those 3 players should headline a deal..i said they are better than what the Twins got.

The only player the Red Sox fans are throwing out there that the Mets cant match is Bucholz. Ike put up better numbers than Lars. F-Mart only problem at this point is health wise but if it is true that the Blue Jays wanted him with a bunch of lesser guys for Halladay..why wouldnt the Padres want him in a trade?

Just because us fans dont like trade proposals we see floating around the internet doesnt mean that GM's don't look at it and say..i like it.

F-Mart's ONLY issue is he hasnt played a full season, but he has the talent..he put up better number in AAA at 20 than David Wright put up in the Sally league at that age. If people really think if the Mets said..we'll offer you Maine, Davis, F-Mart, Meija and Havens to the Padres and they wouldnt at least listen..thats crazy.

Maine for the last 2 or 3 years has been the Mets best pitcher during the 1st half.

We talking about the same Padres team that took flyers on Chris Young and Mark Prior.

^ Casey Kelly, Ryan Westmoreland, Daniel Bard

Yeah and for the last time Mets fans, Red Sox fans aren't talking about putting Lars Anderson in any deal for San Diego so can you please stop comparing your prospects to him?

"The only player the Red Sox fans are throwing out there that the Mets cant match is Bucholz."

Without intention to be slanderous towards the Mets and to the Mets posters here who write with knowledge, but the Red Sox do not need to rebuild the team at 3-4 spots and need at least 2 rotation spots filled in the middle of it either, nor a 8th inning stopper and need a starting SS to remain healthy etc... Boston needs a couple of pieces only and consistently wins 90+ games, makes the playoffs and can afford to trade top prospects. NYM may be needing those and cannot afford to be trading the F-Marts, that they have very few of, with so many pieces that already need replacing, or will within the next couple of years.

A team (except for the NYY) just does not go out and buy a new team every other year.

I keep seeing it repeated that the Mets have 5-6 prospects in the Top 100...is this people speculating, or are they referring to an actual list somewhere?

From what I've read, most of the Mets prospects not named Ike didn't make much progress last year, some taking steps back...and they only had two in the mid-season, both in the bottom 50.

Honestly asking here, not looking to start a flamewar.

Muggi...thats not true. I think Meija is in the 20's, F-Mart is ranked in the 30's and Davis isnt far behind him..with Holt and Wilmer Flores in the final 50 somewhere.

Who saying he's not..you're not understanding that i am saying that the Mets can put a package together. All this talk people here are saying is the Mets cant..no they can..they just shouldnt

"Who saying he's not..you're not understanding that i am saying that the Mets can put a package together. All this talk people here are saying is the Mets cant..no they can..they just shouldnt"

Nobody is saying they can't put a package together we are just saying that their package could be topped by most ballclubs, and just about every team that would be going after Gonzalez.

Moses: you're pointing out exactly what I'm talking about...what list?

AFAIK Baseball Prospectus doesn't release their Top 100 until Jan/Feb; Baseball America doesn't either. The last list put out by a major scouting org was the BA mid-season...I was wrong thinking it's a Top 100, it's a Top 50...but the only Mets on it were Holt and Mejia, both in the bottom 50.

Davis will jump up, no doubt, but unless I missed a list from a major outlet somewhere (which is CERTAINLY possible), I don't see why these prospects are going to leapfrog over bunches of other prospects for having what in many cases were mediocre at best showings in '09.

Seriously, if I'm wrong explain it to me. I just want to know where all this is coming from.

"And yet the issue with your argument, Moses, is that you forgot the part where the two biggest suitors for Johan, the Yankees and the Red Sox, who were offering far better packages, backed out and told the Twins to go stuff it.

The Twins got stuck with the Mets as the only interested party. So they took what they could."

Posted by: BaseballFan0707 | November 16, 2009 at 08:23 PM

If I remember right, wasn't it the other way around? Johan telling the Red Sox and Yankees to "shove it" by saying he wouldn't waive his NTC to go there?

I'm not trying to rain on anyones parade here...and I agree Adrian Gonzalez is a very good player. But I believe over the course of the last year he went from one of the most underrated players to one of the most overrated players. Not that his play has changed(like I said he's still very good) but all at once, everybody noticed him.

"

I wonder what people on this board were saying when the Mets were looking to trade for Santana.

I'm not saying those packages are great but they are not as bad as people make them out to be. The players the Mets would offer the Padres for Gonzalez ARE BETTER than what the Twins got for Santana. And guess what? Johan is playing for the Mets so anything is possible..and i'll be 1st to say i never thought the Mets had enough talent to get Santana. Maine, F-Mart and Ike are better than what the Twins got."

Are we seriously still on this? The reason the Mets got Johan so cheap is because of the contract. Nobody in baseball wanted Johan at the price of prospects PLUS that contact. Heck nobody probably would have offered 6 years/$140 mil if Johan was just a free agent. He is about a year away from having one of the worst contracts in baseball. Yeah he was probably worth the money for 3-4 years, but this contract is going to be horrid after Johan continues to decline year after year.

I'm emotional? i just pissed myself laughing on that one..seriously.

Because this thread started out with people saying the Mets cant make that trade because they basically have no farm system. I used examples of how the the Mets got players ot were in trade talks for players when there farm system was WORSE. So tell me again how that made me foolish? Just because i'm saying it can be done..while you and a few others say it cant and point out the flaws in F-Mart and how the Mets farm system is horrid?

You telling me the Red Sox couldnt alter their offer to be better than what the Mets offered? As a matter of fact someone onlime compared the offers and the offers the red sox put up werent that great if u look back at it.

Coco Crips, Bucholz and 2 others.

Moses I never once said the Mets couldn't get Adrian. I just said that your reasoning is so dumb it's become quite obnoxious. You are trying to relate it to situations that have nothing to do with this one (Mark Prior, Victor Martinez, Johan Santana, etc.). Basically your entire argument is "hey, anything can happen".

The Twins were asking for players like Jon Lester, Jacoby Ellsbury, Phil Hughes, and Joba Chamberlin from the Red Sox and Yankees so they both backed off because the Twins shot themselves in the foot trying to play them against each other. Everyone around baseball knows the Twins screwed that one up and settled for a mediocre package from the Mets. When they blew their chances with the Red Sox and Yankees there werent many other options for the Twins to trade Santana with the contract demands he had. They had to SETTLE for the Mets package. I guarantee you that the Padres will not SETTLE for a package on Gonzalez which is why he will not end up on the Mets. The fact that we are still talking about this is ridiculous. The Mets have a bad farm system thats all it boils down to. You have named 5 prospects and guess what? Thats all the Mets have! You need more than 5 prospects to have a good farm system so please stop trying to defend the Mets chances of acquiring Gonzalez and that the Mets have a decent farm system both are ridiculous.

Okay. I'll agree that the proposal of Martinez, Davis and Maine wouldn't be anough, but for all the people saying the Mets would have to trade Martinez, Flores, Davis, Niese, and Mejia are completely ridiculous. NO TEAM gives up their top 5 prospects in a deal. I have not seen a Red Sox fan say they'd have to give up Buchholz, Anderson, Kelly, Bard, and Reddick. I admit, the Mets have a mediocre farm system while the Red Sox's is very deep and that the Mets are very unlikely to acquire Gonzalez while the Red Sox are, a lot of the Sox prospects are overhyped. Bowden is a 3/4 starter at best. Lets compare some.

F-Mart, 21 years old. Killed AAA pitching before getting hurt when called up.
Mejia, 20 years old. 1/2 starter potential.
Davis, 22 years old. 30 HR bat.
Niese, 23 years old. Solid 3/4 starter.
Flores, 18 years old. Youngest player in his league. Drawn comparisons to Miguel Cabrera.

F-Mart > Reddick
Davis > Anderson
Niese = Bowden
Mejia > Buchholz

But theres a new list out..i don't know if Lars is still ahead of Ike or not, but i do know he put up better stats than Lars.

Look i'm not gonna debate what trade offers were put out and what are myth..because none of us were in the room or on the phone when that happened.

Maybe most of you got so use to some Mets fans mentioning Murphy and Evans in deals for Gonzalez that you failed to realize there are other players they can offer that are much better.

QueensKing Mejia is not better than Buchholz. Also, Red Sox fans don't think Buchholz, Reddick, Anderson, Bowden would be a deal for Adrian Gonzalez so what is your point?

Muggi, I try to be respectful here, but I've found the quiet and sarcastic approach doesn't work on these people. Honestly I feel foolish to even argue with these people, but I like talking baseball and their are very few places with good discussion. This site is one of them, and I feel that the reasonable people need to call out the ones that make horrible arguments that lack any factual element.

I've seen thatlist PERSONALLY online..it is not ficticious. It may not be Baseball America but i have seen it.. i will find it and post it.

Its funny that the people on this site who claim to make good arguments are mostly teenagers. I've probably been following baseball longer than you been on the planet..but you know all and seen all..and cant be wrong.

if omar unloads the money we can have an awesome team..
sign lackey and holliday (yes both of them)..they should both be around 15 mil per year
then trade for phillips and arroyo/harang...cinci lookin to reduce salary

reyes
murphy
beltran
holliday
wright
phillips
fcore
barajas/santos
(phillips can go secon, i just feel murph is gunna break out this year..plus phillips can drive in alotta runs batting after beltran holliday and wright)

santana
lackey
harang/arroyo
pelfrey
perez

it may cost alot of money to pull somthing like this off, but it would strengthen this team a ton

Holliday for sure and Lackey probably will both end up costing more than 15 million per year, but I could see Omar trying to pull that off I don't think it would be the smartest move though. It would limit anything the Mets could do financially and I think the Mets should try and fill multiple holes this offseason rather than just 2.

"Moses Magnum-

You continue to make a fool out of yourself, seriously stop. How do you know anyone's age? Secondly, using your logic, Peter Gammons more qualified than Theo Epstein to run a franchise. No one is attacking your opinions, everyone has them, it's ok. What we are attacking is your logic, which has been so poor it makes us frustrated. You have literally not made one valid point in this whole thread, and we all just want you to stop. Please, stop. I feel like this is an intervention."

LOL well said Brian

If Holliday signs for anything less than 17 a year he definatly will not be with the Mets! That I promise you

um... so tell me again why we keep comparing the johan trade to adrian gonzalez? im serious. i totally fail to see how the situations are similar... is it because we are talking about two elite players that both boston and ny had/have interest in? because thats where the similarities end.
1. the twins had NO leverage. none. they had a pitcher that was due 13 mil in his final season. the man publicly expressed how much and how long he wanted which was too much and too long the small market twins were willing to or could have spent on a pitcher. their choices were deal him in the offseason, deal him at the deadline or let him walk and get two picks out of the deal. the whole world knew 2008 would be johan's last season as a twin. the club was faced with paying a man 13 mil to play with a team that they didnt feel would make the playoffs (they won 79 games in 07 with johan.). so they needed to get what they could and hoped to get more than two picks worth of value.

further complicating things was the fact johan had a ntc clause he'd only waive for an extension. that basically eliminated everyone but nyy nym and bos. the yanks and sox scoffed at min. and realizing that if they waited till july they might not even get what the mets offered, so they took it. whether of not they got more than two picks is debatable but they didnt have to spend that 13 mil either.

2. the gonzalez situation is drastically different.

he is under control for two more seasons. he may arguably be more valuable this july not less.

he contract is team friendly 4.75 next year and 5.5 the year after. yes the pads slashed payroll but he is one of three players under contract for over a million bucks next year.

he doesnt have a no trade clause and that last year is an option that doesnt have a buyout attached to it. the man cant eliminate suitors the way johan did. he cant hold the team hostage demanding an extension the way johan did and if the pads want to deal somewhere they can, whether it be a contender or not. you think teams like kansas or baltimore wasted their time calling about johan? they couldnt pay him and he wouldnt go. but adrain? there is no team that san diego wouldnt consider. even if only to add to their leverage. who says they cant deal him to another small market club that would only flip him again later? its two years before this man gets paid.

san diego can keep the man for 4.75 million. the package that the twins got wont get it done. period. moving on.

"If Holliday signs for anything less than 17 a year he definatly will not be with the Mets! That I promise you"

I agree with you on that too. I think he either ends up with the Yankees or the Cardinals. If he stays in the National League I expect him to stay where he played well and can play with the games best player. The Cardinals can match if not come close to matching any Mets offer so I would imagine Holliday would rather play in Busch Stadium than Citi Field.

dont* have ... my apologies

I think most fans (I hate making generalizations but its true of the posters here) are missing the critical part: The Padres needs/demands. It shouldn't be a debate about X farm system having the depth or players to get a deal done. It should be if those players fit the needs of the Padres. Anderson and Davis are both solid prospects, but neither find a need for the Padres. C/SS/2B/CF/ Front of rotation pitching are the system weaknesses. Thats the type of player you should want to look at for possible deals. Get the idea. Pitchers that can be talked about to headline the package better not be a projected 3/4 but a solid 2 with possibility of reaching 1. Meaning Niese/Bowden will not do it. The Padres have many of them, they lack front of the rotation pitching, same with bullpen arms.

The other issue is major league ready vs prospects. And its clear that the Padres want players closer to reaching the majors. They need pieces in the upper minors more so then lower minors, thats not saying that they wont accepted a package that contains lower level players, but it all cant be that way.

SO basically ask yourself if you understand what the Padres want/need in this deal before you say X deal can be done or not. Lets take a breath, its going to be long winter with these rumors.

I know most of young..because what part of the Mets CAN put a package together..dont you get. That's all i said and used the Santana situation where fans like you..said there is no way the Mets can make a trade for Santana that didnt include..Reyes or F-Mart. IT HAPPENED.

Whether it had to do with the Red Sox/Yankees saying "thanks but no thanks"..it happened. You guys are using the argument that the twins were forced..um no they werent.. because if that was the case..the Mets coul;dve offered up less.

I used how top prospects werent used to get a Cliff Lee or Victor Martinez..but you still dont get the picture that sometimes teams take a package that we think they shouldve.

The indians didnt get one top prospect from the Phillies for Cliff Lee who was CY YOUNG the previous year. Thats the point..that these trades happen. Not whether its foolish, or other teams dropped out, etc. IT HAPPENED. You telling me that what the Indians got for a CY YOUNG winner is better than a Maine, Davis, F-MART, etc?

See i wouldnt have to explain this to adults with fully developed brains..because they'd get it

All we have stated over and over again is that the Mets cant put together a package that will blow other teams away and get a deal done. Any package they put together most of the other teams involved could beat. Any team can put a package together that doesn't mean it is a good one.

Sox Curse that would be absolutely crazy. If Kenny Williams could somehow put that together that would make Chicago a very formidable ballclub next year.

Wrong, stl. The Twins began to get greedy and asked the Yankees and Red Sox for more. As I recall, the core of each package was Phil Hughes and Cano from the Yanks, and Lester and Ellsbury from the Red Sox. Other players were included in the deal, but those were the big names.

The Twins then told the Yankees that Joba and Melky had to be included no matter what, and the Red Sox had to include (I believe) Buccholz and one of their top hitting prospects. At which time, each respective team told the Twins to go to hell, since each team had to sign him to a hefty extension in order for him to agree to waiving his no trade clause.

Check your history =)

moses the twins WERE forced and the mets DID offer less. their a small market club who felt that johan backed them into a corner with his demands and decided if they were going to move on they might else get what they can and use that money elsewhere. maybe as a met fan of a billion years you dont see the importance of cash because your team is blessed with it. they can afford to pay a guy 20 mil a year. the twins couldnt. they couldnt pay him the 13 he was due under his old contract. they werent going to pay the man another dime and your team was the last one standing. they offered the twins the minimum... just enough for them to be able to say to the fans "we got something" the real value of that trade for them was the 13 mil. dont fool yourself into thinking the mets gave them jack. 13 mil in the pocket. and they flipped the cf for a ss who's previous team gave up on him. in all your years of baseball fanhood when have you seen a team so knowingly fleeced? yeah you can probably list a ton of one sided trades... but how many of them do you recall that the losing team knew they werent getting half of equal value back?