Red Sox Notes: Nishioka, Ortiz, Kelly, Doubront

Some items about a team that will likely be very busy this winter…

  • The Red Sox are "undecided" about a bid for Tsuyoshi Nishioka, reports WEEI's Rob Bradford.  There was some debate earlier in the week whether or not Boston is interested in the Japanese infielder, and Bradford speculates that the Sox might not bother posting a bid given how Jose Iglesias is positioned to be their shortstop of the future.
  • David Ortiz is "fine" with not getting an extension from the Red Sox though he still feels his strong 2010 season was deserving of a multi-year deal, reports ESPNBoston.com's Jackie MacMullan.  In thinly veiled references to his own situation, Ortiz predicts Vladimir Guerrero will re-sign with Texas for "more than one year, too" and wants Derek Jeter "to get rewarded for all he had done for [the Yankees]."
  • ESPN's Keith Law was a guest on WEEI's Minor Details podcast, and WEEI.com's Alex Speier has a partial transcript of Law's Boston-related comments.  Law is very complimentary of Boston's minor league system, saying that they have the variety of prospects necessary to fit the needs of about 20 other teams.   
  • When asked about a potential Adrian Gonzalez deal, Law says he wouldn't be willing to send a top prospect like Casey Kelly to San Diego since Gonzalez is just under contract through 2011.  "Casey Kelly is not untouchable for me, but he’s pretty darn close to it," Law said.  "I don’t think I’d trade Casey Kelly for one year of Adrian Gonzalez, and I love Adrian Gonzalez.”
  • Law calls Felix Doubront and Jed Lowrie "very valuable secondary piece[s]" to a trade given that both players can immediately join a major league roster.  Law cites the Padres and Pirates as "a great fit" for a pitcher like Doubront.


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110 Comments on "Red Sox Notes: Nishioka, Ortiz, Kelly, Doubront"


YanksFanSince78
4 years 9 months ago

Of course Ortiz is “fine” w/ his situation. It’s not like he has a choice in it. How benevolent of him to wish Vlad and Jeter well w/ their contract requests.

hawkny1
4 years 9 months ago

Add Jorge Posada to the “I think I/you deserve a big(ger)contract” club for old men, and it could create a foursome for golf…

jacktigers
4 years 9 months ago

exactly. he is being way overpaid to begin with, he has no reason to complain

4 years 9 months ago

Because Jeter’s last contract of 189 mil wasn’t a reward for his performance?? These players need to spend a day in the life of an average joe.

elclashcombo
4 years 9 months ago

Honestly, even in the context of MLB player salaries those 3 are still overpaid (maybe Vlad is accurately paid?). Still, I’m getting really sick of Ortiz’s veiled comments. He should be thanking someone up above that he pulled it together in 2010 to justify the club option. That was a huge GIFT on Theo and John Henry’s part.

PookieGonzales
4 years 9 months ago

A lot of them grow in povertie situations that most cannot understand. I know i can’t.

4 years 9 months ago

Then show a little more gratitude for the gifts they have received rather than whining about what they should be “rewarded” with. I respect the humble athletes, Papi is nowhere in that category.

PookieGonzales
4 years 9 months ago

Would you ask for a raise in work when you’re a long standing member of the company and just had a year were you did great at your job? And would you not be tell people that your friends desevre the same? I too however am getting some what tired of ortiz’s comments.

BoSoxSam
4 years 9 months ago

Yeah, Papi needs to cool his jets. He has been paid very well, and he knows it. He also knows that Boston -would- be willing to give him multiple years — just not at a premium yearly salary. I think he wants the best of both worlds, multiple years and a nice salary. And at his age, with his skill set, its pretty clear he won’t get it. I just want Vlad to get stuck with another 1 year deal, or maybe 2-3 years with 5m salary or so, so Papi will finally get the picture. And then maybe he and Boston can restructure the contract and keep him for a couple more years. Cause I like the guy, I just don’t want to grossly overpay for his talents.

johnsilver
4 years 9 months ago

Exactly. Think Jack Calrk the ex Sox and SFG 1st baseman and that fleet of antique cars he blew all of his money on, then he ended up having to file bankruptcy right after his career was over.. That guy made MILLIONS.. Yet blew it all.

jacktigers
4 years 9 months ago

jeter grew up in kalamazoo. its not exactly a poor town.

4 years 9 months ago

“Casey Kelly is not untouchable for me, but he’s pretty darn close to it,” Law said. “I don’t think I’d trade Casey Kelly for one year of Adrian Gonzalez, and I love Adrian Gonzalez.”

Is Keith Law ok?

*shakes head*

4 years 9 months ago

That’s a huge statement about what he thinks of Kelly. I would trade Kelly straight up for one year of Adrian but that’s just me.

I would also make sure I resigned Adrian as well.

4 years 9 months ago

This is just my opinion because I realize how he worded it, but my impression was that Law was referring to Kelly being part of a package, not the whole package. I think it’s pretty universally agreed upon that it would take multiple prospects to get Adrian, so I read it as “I don’t think I’d include Casey Kelly in a deal for one year of Adrian Gonzalez…” I’m as big a Casey Kelly supporter as anyone and even I would have a hard time saying no to a 1-for-1 deal.

Again, that’s just how I interpreted it. Maybe he really did mean that.

4 years 9 months ago

I hope that is what he is meaning to say. That would make sense.

BoSoxSam
4 years 9 months ago

Yeah. I can’t imagine Law meant 1 on 1 either…then I really would think he’s out of his mind. 😛 If you get a 1 on 1 offer where you trade your best prospect for Adrian Gonzalez, nearly everyone would have to say yes, unless you’re the Royals or Rays or something.

And yeah, you’re not gonna see me offering Kelly in a package for A-Gon either. I like that kid.

4 years 9 months ago

“my impression was that Law was referring to Kelly being part of a package, not the whole package.”

Im sure that’s what he meant. That’s what I took away from that comment as well.

xfipMachine
4 years 9 months ago

Smarter than you.

4 years 9 months ago

How Shakespearian of you.

BoSoxSam
4 years 9 months ago

Yeah I’m not sure either…although I see his point. You want to be careful trading anything for a one-year rental, in my opinion. Especially when you have a team like Boston that might not necessarily need A-Gon to make the push specifically in 2011. Not saying A-Gon isn’t good…but I mean, Boston could be good enough to win in 2011 without him, if the cards fall right. I think Law’s thinking that he’d be more willing to trade some MLB-ready talent like Lowrie or Doubront, who are valuable but might not fit in Boston, for a rental like A-Gon rather than risk the future. *shrugs* For me, if he meant a straight up Kelly for A-Gon trade, I’d jump on that without thinking about it.

4 years 9 months ago

“if he meant a straight up Kelly for A-Gon trade, I’d jump on that without thinking about it.”

So would any GM in Baseball.

SteelCityResident13
4 years 9 months ago

Jeter has been overpaid his entire career, that is rewarding enough. It is time he plays for pennies so the Yankees can save money for once, as weird as that sounds.

baseballz
4 years 9 months ago

As much as i’d think AGon would be great on the BoSox and really help solve some of their problems this offseason, I’m also just as in love with Casey Kelly and the majority of their prospects. I can see where Law is coming from.

xfipMachine
4 years 9 months ago

Let’s give up Casey Kelly plus a bunch of other pieces for 1 year of Gonzalez and the right to bid with 29 other teams on his services with a $200 million dollar contract after that. One year rentals of this type are beyond stupid business.

david33957
4 years 9 months ago

Trading Lowrie is a really bad idea. His 2010 numbers – projected to a full season – show he has the ability to really contribute to the Red Sox for years to come.

SteelCityResident13
4 years 9 months ago

Going against what I said in a blog yesterday, I would love to see the Pirates trade Meek or Hanrahan and a minor league player with potential (might not be needed) to the Sox for Jed Lowrie. He is a HUGE step up from Cedeno and can help our infield and lineup drastically.

BoSoxSam
4 years 9 months ago

Agreed he’d be a big upgrade. Which is why as a Sox fan, I hope he’s only traded as part of a something big. Then again I really like the Pirates, so if we lose him to a trade like that, I hope its to Pittsburgh :)

Hey, maybe Epstein will get you guys involved in some enormous, 5 team trade that gets us a Gonzalez or Upton, and gets you Lowrie! xD Now that would be fun to watch.

SteelCityResident13
4 years 9 months ago

Meek of Hanrahan would be great on the Sox. They are both fireballers. I dont want to see either of them go but in a package deal we could afford losing one of them. Bullpen isnt anything unless you are winning games first!

SteelCityResident13
4 years 9 months ago

PS, Epstein dont care about the Buccos. Our Bay trade was garbage. Looked great on paper, didnt do anything for us though. haha

BoSoxSam
4 years 9 months ago

I didn’t think much of your return from the beginning…I would be the first to admit you guys got fleeced. I guess you can be glad we only got him for the year and a half though…And now you get to watch him self-destruct in New York! haha

BoSoxSam
4 years 9 months ago

Agreed. I am a big fan of Meek. And this doesn’t really have much to do with anything, but I’m also a big fan of your GM. Looks like he’s got Pittsburgh on the right path; hopefully you guys are gonna be 2012’s version of this years Reds, and start competing again!

4 years 9 months ago

Tell Ortiz he can have two years at 6.25 million a year.

bustersposey
4 years 9 months ago

i’ll probably get killed for this but imo casey kelly is the most overrated prospect in the minors. i understand he was only 20 in AA this season, but-
Kelly 5.31era 7.67k/9 3.32bb/9 1.61whip.
Montgomery 3.47era 7.24k/9 3.92bb/9 1.37whip (20yo)
Lyles 3.12era 8.15k/9 2.48bb/9 1.32whip (19yo)
Pineda 2.22era 9.12k/9 1.99bb/9 1.09whip (21yo)
Bumgarner 1.93era 5.80k/9 2.5bb/9 1.03whip (as a 19yo in ’10)
Teheran 3.38era 8.55k/9 3.83bb/9 1.15whip (19yo)
Feliz 2.98era 9.30k/9 4.60bb/9 1.26whip (as a 20yo in ’08).
One of these guys is not like the others. One of these guys just does not belong. I realize minor league numbers are not everything but to say you wouldn’t trade him for AGON is bat$hit crazy.

BoSoxSam
4 years 9 months ago

Yeah, you’re about to be murdered xD I’ll just sit back and watch this time, hehe.

(I do see your point though…I disagree, but I understand what you’re thinking)

4 years 9 months ago

Unlike the others on the list, Kelly entered the Red Sox minor league system unsure whether he’d be a position player or a pitcher. He’s still working out a lot of his mechanics, but the scoop with Kelly is that while he doesn’t throw the 98 MPH heat like some of these other guys do, scouting reports are that he has very advanced secondary stuff for his age.Countless pitchers have put up gaudy numbers in the minor leagues living off of fastballs which just don’t translate into the big leagues. That being said, it’s obviously way too early to tell what kind of success he’ll have. There are too many scouts raving about him to call him the most overrated prospect in the minors… though to be fair, I think it would be a little nuts not to trade him 1-for-1 for Adrian (see the discussion above).

loeres
4 years 9 months ago

the problem is that kelly “lost” a year to playing shortstop, he had 90ip as a pro before being thrown in aa. im not saying hes not overrated =) but you have to look at both sides of the medal.

when is listend to the law interview i got the impression that he is not a fan of the “1 year star rental in exchange for top prospects” in general and he used kelly as an example, thats all.

baseballz
4 years 9 months ago

I don’t think that you can discount the fact that Kelly was a two way player last year and this is his first full season as a pitcher. A lot of the guys you’ve cited were drafted out of highschool and concentrated soley on pitching. Though, I do see your point about him being overrated to a certain extent. It would still suck to trade him, I want to watch him pitch in the AL east because I only have basic cable.

bustersposey
4 years 9 months ago

i don’t want to hate on kelly… i think he’s a fine prospect. i think my main point is if he were the exact same player w/o signing for $3M w/ boston he wouldn’t be thought of nearly in the same light. in the case of montgomery and lyles, they were drafted within 10 picks of kelly and you don’t hear nearly as much about them. the fact that kelly played both ways is a fair point, i’d just like to see better performance. did i read he had an era north of 6.5 in the afl. small sample i know. i’d just like to see more performance from a top prospect in an organization and a top 100 prospect in baseball. and i’d trade him for agon in a blink.

start_wearing_purple
4 years 9 months ago

I keep saying this and I’m not sure why any more the people who like Kelly don’t need convincing and the people who don’t won’t listen to what I have to say. But hell, I like pounding my head on rocks as much as several people on this site:

1a) Kelly was 20 and it was his first full year pitching professional ball. For that matter he had also only been pitching part time in high school since he prefered playing short.
1b) Kelly was clearly overmatched in AA, see reason 1a.
2) While an argument against has been made (Not by you, by others) against Kelly because he doesn’t have a blazing fastball, he does have a solid change up which people tend to forget is essential. He also has a curve that has a powerful drop to it.

So there we have it. Kelly is a young guy who dabbled in pitching in high school, now becoming a full time starter, and has stuff with great potential. Context.

bustersposey
4 years 9 months ago

kelly is a young guy who dabbled in pitching in high school, now becoming a full time starter, and has stuff with great potential. does not an elite level propect make. when performance match tools- elite level prospect. until then, overrated.

johnsilver
4 years 9 months ago

That is what happens when you just look at stats and nothing else sometimes and not the reasons for 2009-2010 differentials for his.. I am sure you have seen them here and many of us are way past tired of posting them.. But here is a little..

Kelly put on weight.. Gained 2-3mph on his FB (95 now) lost some command last year with it as it gained velocity, plus was the 2nd youngest player in the eastern league at 20YO, another thing that had something to do with it I am sure.

There are reasons if you look.. Not just all stats. he had some jewels, just like in the AFL that just ended where he pitched fine in 3 games and got hammered in the 4th start.. He is one of the youngest players pitching vs competition well ahead of him age wise.. Boston challenges it’s top players and does not baby them. Just like SS Iglesias, who was the youngest player in the entire AA Eastern league last season.

bustersposey
4 years 9 months ago

that’s kind of my point. there’s a lot of reasons why he struggled, but bottom line he struggled. never said he wasn’t a good prospect, i just don’t see the stone cold lock front of the rotation starter that it seems most sox fans do. and i don’t see him as anything close to untouchable in a trade for an impact player

jwredsox
4 years 9 months ago

He is at 95 now? That makes me happier.

johnsilver
4 years 9 months ago

Like put up in last post.. He generally picket up 2-3 MPh since the weight gain.. Touching 95 would be a better description, but he was having command issues with it at the Eastern league as well and that will probably be addressed this year.

Maybe he will get to pitch in the AFL CS game broadcast today in a relief appearance even, at least Iglesias and Lavarnway should at least. The game is on at 3PM eastern on MLB for those not aware. :-)

jwredsox
4 years 9 months ago

I wasn’t aware of the game so thanks!

Sd_brain
4 years 9 months ago

i would love to see Felix Doubront and Jed Lowrie on the padres

baseballz
4 years 9 months ago

How much do people think it matters that getting a guy like AGon will get you two draft picks in the 2012 draft which is supposed to be even weaker then the 2010 draft was?

flickadave
4 years 9 months ago

I don’t think you trade for him unless you can sign him to a Texiera like deal. If he won’t sign an extension you might as well wait til he becomes a free agent and just give up the 1 draft choice. That’s from someone who would REALLY like the Sox to acquire AGon. Emptying the farm for a 1 year rental wouldn’t seem to make much sense.

bustersposey
4 years 9 months ago

would you rather have had kelly dominate in A+ this season than seeing him struggle in AA? do you think he’s being promoted too aggresively? is there concern that his confidence may take a hit? kind of a general question, not just specifically kelly. would you rather have a prospect struggle at a higher lever, or dominate a level for at least a half season before getting promoted?

start_wearing_purple
4 years 9 months ago

Theo’s argument for starting Kelly in AA was he wanted to throw Kelly into the fire to see how he would respond. In the previous season Kelly had shown he had dominated most of A ball and wanted a new challenge.

There’s an old saying about chess, the only way to get better is to play a better opponent.

hawkny1
4 years 9 months ago

Can Agon play 3B? No? Why go after him then? The Red Sox already have an all-star at 1B. His name is Kevin Youkilis. Add to this, the fact that Boston’s 3B of record, Adrian Beltre, had a better 2010 than Agon did… and Adrian will be playing 3B at Fenway Park in 2011.

John LeClair
4 years 9 months ago

Adrien Gonzalez plays in a pitchers park, if he played in Fenway he would be easily hitting .290+ with 40 Homers and 120 RBI’s+ a year.

hawkny1
4 years 9 months ago

That is pure speculation on your part.

BoSoxSam
4 years 9 months ago

I see what you mean, but A-Gon would definitely be an upgrade, and Youk can move to 3B. Youk and A-Gon would be a much better set of corner infielders than Youk and Beltre, and I love Beltre. I think Theo can’t sign Beltre until he feels like he’s definitely not getting Gonzalez.

hawkny1
4 years 9 months ago

That is pure speculation.  There is no way to determine how Agon would regularly play in Boston (or New York).  He is a laid back, a southern Californian by birth and has spent most of his career playing for sub .500 clubs (please note the Padres fade in September, when wins counted).  I say the odds are 50/50 he, Agon, would be a total bust playing 81 games on the east coast.  Beltre has enjoyed success in Boston.   Imho, the odds are greater he will repeat his 2010 performance, if he stays.

flickadave
4 years 9 months ago

If the Red Sox got AGon they would still have all stars at both 1b and 3b if Youk moved to 3b. Add to this that it is debatable whether Beltre had a better year than AGon as Beltre had a 6.1 WAR while AGon had a 6.3 WAR. If you think Beltre benefitted from a year in the friendly confines just think of what numbers AGon would put up there. Here’s hoping that Adrian will be playing 1b for the Sox in 2011.

MaineSox
4 years 9 months ago

Not to mention everyone knows that last year was an outstanding year for Beltre and was by no means a career year for Adrian, so to believe that going forward Beltre is going to be even almost as valuable as Adrian is a bad idea.

hawkny1
4 years 9 months ago

Last time I knew baseball was still a team sport… The individual stats you quote do not guarantee anything in the W/L column or measure anything but last year’s partially relevant performance data.  Team wins on the field, chemistry & balance, are what count most.

redsox4120
4 years 9 months ago

I think the only way I trade Kelly and other top prospects for Gonzo is if Gonzo signs a contract extension. If that isn’t a possibility, then Theo should just wait until he becomes a free agent next season.

Basically, I think the Sox are going to get him one way or another. Theo has wanted this guy for what seems like forever and I don’t think he is going to let the opportunity to get Gonzo pass him by.

kjodon7
4 years 9 months ago

Time for Ortiz to get over it…I’m sick of hearing about how he wanted an extension. Vlad may get multiple years on the open market, but it probably won’t be for $12.5 million per.

Chris Solberg
4 years 9 months ago

What bothers me is that everyone is talking like Doubront is a stud trade chip. The guy is a glowing beacon as to why ERA is a bad statistic to judge a player. He hasn’t had a WHIP below 1.30 at any stop in the system since 2008.

BoSoxSam
4 years 9 months ago

Well, cause he added to his repertoire considerably in 2010, becoming more than just a fastball pitcher. And he proved he can survive in the majors, so someone can put him in their rotation right away. He still might not be great, but he has the potential to make an immediate impact, which is important for a team like Arizona.

woadude
4 years 9 months ago

trust me, Doubront is serious, and I do not by any means like many of the Sox prospects, Doubront is going to be good.

woadude
4 years 9 months ago

trust me, Doubront is serious, and I do not by any means like many of the Sox prospects, Doubront is going to be good.

BoSoXaddict
4 years 9 months ago

Ok..so we all love Casey Kelly. But what about including him in a Juston Upton trade?

BoSoXaddict
4 years 9 months ago

Ok..so we all love Casey Kelly. But what about including him in a Juston Upton trade?

BoSoxSam
4 years 9 months ago

I’d say yes. Depends on what Towers wants though; so far it sounds like he’s putting more value on major-league ready talent than prospects, so we wouldn’t necessarily want to offer a blue-chip prospect like Kelly if he’s going to undervalue him.

derekbellstutu
4 years 9 months ago

I’d love to see the Bucs add Felix Doubront and Jed Lowrie, but I don’t know what the Pirates have to offer the Red Sox besides Hanrahan or Meek. It’s not like the Red Sox are going to want Garrett Jones or Ryan Doumit and I don’t want the Pirates to give up a lot of prospects. I think the Rays and Pirates are better trade partners this offseason than the Red Sox.

SteelCityResident13
4 years 9 months ago

They could be interested in Doumit if they cant resign Vmart. They always like to have a hitter capable of hitting, usually. Obviously Doumit isnt very great defensively but maybe they will see past that since the free agent catching market is thin.

Doumit, Meek, prospect (low level) for Lowrie and Doubront
– This would make sense, both sides obviously would need interest and maybe add another prospect on the pirates side or some cash.

BoSoxSam
4 years 9 months ago

Ok, thanks. I’m going to go listen to the interview now :)

bustersposey
4 years 9 months ago

fair enough. if his numbers next season are bad… do you start worrying?

bustersposey
4 years 9 months ago

great point. fine debater you are.

BoSoxSam
4 years 9 months ago

I think you’re right. Of course, as you mentioned, I think Boston would rather move Scutaro, and therefore I don’t really see Lowrie moving unless in a big trade for a superstar. As I said, maybe its possible pitt gets involved in a multiple team trade, just cause I know Epstein would really like to get a lot of teams involved, but otherwise I’m not sure if I see it happening. I see the match, and if comes to that where Boston is willing to trade Lowrie for some relievers or prospects, then Pittsburgh is likely a great match, but otherwise I don’t think it’ll actually happen.

bustersposey
4 years 9 months ago

he made 8 starts in hiA. i would have liked to see him start at salem and be promoted mid-season. everyone is so quick to mention his “lost year”- why the need to be so aggresive with him. seems like it’s more dangerous to promote a guy too fast than too slow.

bustersposey
4 years 9 months ago

how does one prove that he is GOING to do something?

4 years 9 months ago

No. Look at Hanley Ramirez’s minor league numbers…the year he was dealt to Florida he hit .271/.335/.385 with 6 homers in over 500 plate appearances in AA at age 21. The next year he immediately became one of the best players in baseball. Obviously that is just one example, but the larger point is minor league numbers aren’t very useful at all. Kelly is trying to use secondary pitches in key situations and improve weaknesses. The guy could turn out to be a bust like any prospect, but his stats mean next to nothing. If he stayed in A ball he would’ve dominated and I wouldn’t be any higher on him…it should work both ways. He has improved velocity, which is the biggest factor. He just needs to adjust to more advanced hitters, which I’m confident he will do this year.

4 years 9 months ago

This would be a bad move, see Clay Buchholz. A pitcher needs to struggle before the majors…because he eventually will once he makes it to the MLB, and you need to get mentally prepared and learn to adjust. Theo isn’t trying to build up buzz around his prospects, he already has that. He’s trying to actually develop star players.

bustersposey
4 years 9 months ago

could also be a good move. see jeremy hellickson.

johnsilver
4 years 9 months ago

Yeah, Should have said picked up 2-3mph and was “consistent” with around 92-95 now, rather than 90-93 now like he was before he put on the extra weight.

bustersposey
4 years 9 months ago

that’s the second time today that every professional scout in the business disagreed with me, according to you. do you have them all on speed dial? does every scout in the business think the same thing about every prospect? would make scouting kind of redundant. if they all agree on everything, why are there so many? you seem upset that i don’t want to stroke kalish’s grundle with you.

YanksFanSince78
4 years 9 months ago

In all fairness, scouts have been wrong about some reports centerd around “projections” vs “production”.kelly just might turn out to be every bit of a stud as most ppl think. Or he might not. I see nothing wrong with holding the “wait and see” approach before annointing him the next great thing.

start_wearing_purple
4 years 9 months ago

I really should, shouldn’t I

bustersposey
4 years 9 months ago

maybe some other teams may make him an offer. remember when the sox were gonna give texeira a contract in the offseason. how’d that work out?

bustersposey
4 years 9 months ago

to be fair, you could say about most everyone on the list “trying to use secondary pitches in key situations and improve weaknesses.” they’re all basically the same age at the same level. take montgomery… he threw a palmball when he was drafted, the royals made him scrap it and use a more traditional change, which he developed at AA. that’s what pitchers do in the minors. its just kellys numbers look worse than everyone else’s

YanksFanSince78
4 years 9 months ago

Yea but Han Ram also had:

2002: .352/.401/.548 w/ 7 hrs and 12 SB in 261 AB in A-/A
2003: .275/.327/.403 w/ 8 hrs and 36 SB in 464 AB in A-
2004: .314/.369/.436 w/ 6 hrs and 25 SB in 388 AB in A+/AA

He had a greater body of work to go off of.

Kelly is a great talent but he has to show something more in 2011 to stay a top 50 guy.

bustersposey
4 years 9 months ago

to be fair, the year before he posted a .871 ops in a brief stint in AA. and in ’05 he played hurt. i think his numbers still look better than kelly’s.

bustersposey
4 years 9 months ago

not sure i understand. when did strasburg not post dominant numbers to match his tools? college, team usa, summer leagues, minor leagues, major leagues?

YanksFanSince78
4 years 9 months ago

Wow…..so you really think Henry and Theo headed down to meet with Tex and his wife and offered a contract just to rasie the price on the Yanks who, at the time, weren’t even thought to be in pursuit of him?

bustersposey
4 years 9 months ago

they offered him 8y $176- $184m. sounds like serious pursuit to me.

MaineSox
4 years 9 months ago

The Red Sox were certainly going after Teixeira seriously, but like every player (including Adrian Gonzalez) Theo sets a value and very rarely goes beyond the value he sets, that’s why the Sox lost out on Teixeira and that is how they could potentially lose out on Gonzalez.

woadude
4 years 9 months ago

Do not kid yourself, Lowell was resigned in 07 after being the MVP of the world series and the crowd chanting “resign Lowell”, and Theo had Youk taking third base drills and put Lowell on the trade block and thought he had Teixiera for 170 million when Boras told him a team made an offer for 180, Theo told Boras there is no way someone is going to pay more than us, and told him to prove it as they werent going to go over 170 million, the next few days later the Yankees unveiled their new 1st baseman at 180 million which shocked everyone because they spent so much money on CC and Burnett….it was all in the papers dude.

bustersposey
4 years 9 months ago

this year? yeah. that’s kinda the point.

BoSoxSam
4 years 9 months ago

Well, only thing I think of is his defense struggles, but I agree. He’d be cream of the crop at third.

bustersposey
4 years 9 months ago

i did. impressive. but 8 starts at a+. the most common point i’ve been hearing is that he missed a year of development playing ss. no reason to rush him. there’s a difference between challenging a propect and drowning him. my original point is that he’s overrated. not that he sucks. nobody has yet to mention one name of a prospect that they see as being ‘more overrated’, which would be the best way to shut me up. just looking for friendly debate dude. when you say things like ‘this guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about’ or ‘this dudes a jus a hater’ it just wastes screen space. i’m more than happy to be disagreed with, but with a counterpoint, not an insult. when insulted i resort to potty humor.

rsoxbob
4 years 9 months ago

Sam, Youk was an above-average 3B in the past, and I think he’d be slightly above average as a slightly-older 3B in the future if he plays there 90% of the time (vs. shuffling between 1B and 3B). Having said that, I am not a big fan of moving him to third. I’d rather sign Beltre (if he can be had at 4/52) or even trade Dice-K to Seattle for Figgins to cover the 3B situation and get to work on signing either Crawford or Werth and V-Mart.

bustersposey
4 years 9 months ago

well, you could say ALL players are “elite prospects” when drafted until they prove otherwise. to me, kelly has done as much to prove he’s not an elite prospect as he has to prove he is one. strasburg has never done anything to prove he’s not. and kinda apples and oranges comping hs and college stats. would you not agree at the time of their draft strasburg was a more ‘proven’ guy considering his age, college career, national team career, summer league stats. kelly was dominant at low a and high a through 17 starts, and struggled mightily through 21 starts in aa and 6 in the afl.

woadude
4 years 9 months ago

No it wouldnt, he was drafted as a third baseman and wants to play third, he has a solid glove and strong arm to make throws across the diamond.

YanksFanSince78
4 years 9 months ago

Yanks had already traded for Swisher, had an OF of Damon, Cabrera/Gardner and Nady in RF with Matsui @ DH. Cashman had already said that Swisher was going to be the full time 1B. Dude…your like the only Sox fan that can’t admit that the Sox wanted and intended on signing Tex. Get over it. Not that big of a deal.

YanksFanSince78
4 years 9 months ago

Exactly. Really not worth denying dude blackcourt.

flickadave
4 years 9 months ago

Youk started more games at 3B in 2009 than he did in 2004. In 500 innings he committed 4 errors. I’ll accept an error from my third baseman every 125 innings.

MaineSox
4 years 9 months ago

His value would be lower at third, but I think sucks and plummet are both overstatements. He played third his whole career until he was called up to the majors, I know it was several years ago but he played third for years and it wouldn’t be unreasonable to assume that he would be at WORST an average defensive third baseman and a way above average offensive third baseman. But I agree his value would take a major hit moving him to third which is why I think there are only about 3 people in the majors who you would move Youk to third for, but I think if you can get one of those three people there is a net increase in value for the team so I think you do it.

MaineSox
4 years 9 months ago

His value would be lower at third, but I think sucks and plummet are both overstatements. He played third his whole career until he was called up to the majors, I know it was several years ago but he played third for years and it wouldn’t be unreasonable to assume that he would be at WORST an average defensive third baseman and a way above average offensive third baseman. But I agree his value would take a major hit moving him to third which is why I think there are only about 3 people in the majors who you would move Youk to third for, but I think if you can get one of those three people there is a net increase in value for the team so I think you do it.

bustersposey
4 years 9 months ago

poor choice of words maybe. the point im driving it is that kelly is overrated. on baseball america, the top prospects by org. posted so far:
machado kelly montero hellickson drabek hosmer chisenhall turner.
out of that group of team #1’s, i’d take every other guy over him. i don’t want to dwell on the stats cause they aren’t the most important thing in the minors, but i don’t think you can disregard them completely. everyone else on that list has great tools, and put together a solid if not great statistical season. all im really saying is i don’t think kelly is in the upper tier of prospects in the game. if i was trading upton or greinke, theres alot of other prospects from other orgs i would try to get. and if i was the sox, i wouldnt let kelly stop me from getting agon, upton, greinke.

flickadave
4 years 9 months ago

Yeah, yeah, I make fun of Jeter, too. What I was trying to say is that he had played the position more recently than SIX YEARS AGO and even tho he hadn’t played it that much recently he didn’t embarrass himself. Funny you should mention busting his butt this off season, he is doing just that preparing to play 3B.

MaineSox
4 years 9 months ago

I get what you are saying and I don’t really disagree on anything you said other than how bad his defense at third would be. He did have a -1.9 UZR in 2009 at third in about 55 games started there, but just the year before he had a +4.3 UZR there in about 35 games started. However I think both years are too small of a sample to say definitively just how good/bad his range would be, particularly if he goes into the season planning and preparing to be a third baseman. Again I’m not saying you’re wrong, I guess I’m just a little bit more optimistic about his ability to still play third (I am a fan of the Red Sox after all…)

YanksFanSince78
4 years 9 months ago

First off I could careless what happens off the field, so I have no reason to gloat over signing Tex. He took our offer and that’s all I need to know.It just strikes me that your in such denial when it was well talked about on this very site back in 2008 over and over and over again with some 500 comments in each posting. But here you can read it yourself. Hopefully it won’t get held up.

-“The Boston Red Sox have offered free agent Mark Teixeira an eight-year deal worth a tick under $170 million, a source with knowledge of the negotiations said Saturday. So, if agent Scott Boras was truthful two days ago in a meeting with Red Sox brass, either the Angels, Orioles or Nationals have an offer on the table for $170 million or more”. (read the rest @ http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ge-redsoxteixeira121808

-“The Boston Herald reported in its Tuesday editions that the Red Sox have extended an offer for Teixeira, believed to be the longest and richest in the seven-year history of the ownership group led by John W. Henry”. (read the rest @ http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jspymd=20081216&content_id=3718580&vkey=hotstove2008).

-“The expectation is that the offer is going to easily be a record for this ownership group, a likely eight-year contract worth somewhere between $145 and $175 million, possibly more..” (read @ http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/baseball/red_sox/view/2008_12_15_Shedding_light_on_Mark_Teixeira:_Length_of_pact_key/)

-“Henry said the Red Sox were unaware of Leigh’s preference for the Yankees, but “felt all along that the Yankees were going to get the last call” from Boras. Since the Red Sox had proposed an eight-year deal for about $170 million, Henry said he found it curious they were told “that we were the low bidders and Boston wasn’t high” on Teixeira’s list.

“At one point, I asked Scott, given their feelings, why we shouldn’t pull out,” Henry said in an e-mail message. “His answer was, ‘Maybe you should.’ And we did.”

By leaving the negotiations, it seemed as if the Red Sox were calling Boras’s bluff and were trying to get him to prove that he had a better offer from the Los Angeles Angels, Baltimore or Washington. As Henry had expected, Boras still had the Yankees on speed dial, too.

While Boras acknowledged that Leigh’s opinion about the Yankees “was the deciding factor” for Teixeira, he said her most definitive remarks were offered at the end of the process. Up until the day Teixeira agreed to terms with the Yankees, Brian Cashman, their general manager, said he was unsure if they would sign him”. (see http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/07/sports/baseball/07boras.html)

YanksFanSince78
4 years 9 months ago

At the time, Mike Lowell was about to have hip surgery after missing most of Sept ’08 because of it. He eventually had surgery in Oct 08. Sox were told he “should” be able to return by spring training but even if he did return they weren’t sure if he’d be able to play 3B well enough. Ortiz was coming off of an injury filled season as well where he missed all of June and most of July and parts of September. He also had the worst year statisticaly of his Sox career up to that point. He posted .264/.369/.507 w/ 23 hrs which was down from .332/.445/.621 w/ 35 hrs in 2007. He also batted poorly vs LH pitching @ .221/.308/.433 w/ 5 HRS in 2008. The idea was that the Sox were going to sign Tex, move Youks to 3rd and platoon or trade Lowell with Ortiz in a LH/RH DH combo for the 2009 season.

I really shouldn’t know more about your team than you do.

woadude
4 years 9 months ago

I covet Adrian? oh please!!! do you not read my posts? all i said is he still has a strong arm and he isnt a lazy fat ass, he can move, he is already taking third base drills and seems to be doing just fine there, trust me, if he was sucking or showing he “lost it” at third, Beltre would already be announced as the resigned third baseman…geez.

woadude
4 years 9 months ago

You may not read this as its an old post but the contract to Texiera wouldnt be a record contract, that distinction goes to Manny and his 8 year 180 million deal.

woadude
4 years 9 months ago

why should i explain to you how to use google?