6:29pm: Mariners GM Jack Zduriencik told MLB.com's Jane Lee and Greg Johns that the team's plan is to have Figgins at third base on Opening Day. "I'm looking forward to Figgins being our starting third baseman … He'll be here tomorrow [for the Mariners' FanFest]. He's been agreeable to moving back to third base and that's our plan, to have Chone be our Opening Day third baseman."
1:17pm: The A's are on Figgins' limited no-trade list and he hasn't yet been asked to waive it, according to Susan Slusser of the San Francisco Chronicle (on Twitter).
12:50pm: There could be a third team involved in trade talks, according to ESPN.com's Buster Olney (Twitter link). Olney suggests the Blue Jays could be the third team. Blue Jays GM Alex Anthopoulos acknowledged last night that the team has toyed with the idea of adding a third baseman, so the Blue Jays could have interest in Kouzmanoff.
8:47am: The A’s are trying to acquire Chone Figgins for Kevin Kouzmanoff and perhaps a pitcher, according to Joe Stiglich of the Contra Costa Times. Figgins, 33, could play third base for the A's, who missed out on free agent Adrian Beltre.
The Mariners owe Figgins $26MM through 2013 and the infielder's contract includes a vesting option for 2014. Figgins hit .259/.340/.306 last year with 42 stolen bases and 74 walks. He led the league with 101 walks in 2009, stealing 42 bases and posting a .298/.395/.393 line for another AL West team, the Angels.
The Braves inquired on Figgins last July, but there hasn't been reported interest in him since.
If they are taking all of the remainig balance on the contract then I would say have fun in Oakland Chone.
I know Figgins had an awful year in Seattle, but I think giving up on him, especially if Kouzmanoff is the key piece, is an awful idea.
It does seem awfully soon for them to be giving up on him. Even in a down season, he still had a respectable OBP, and stole 42 bases. His SLG left a lot to be desired, but the main thing for leadoff-types — especially speedsters like Figgins — is just getting to that first base. Chances are pretty good that he’ll then steal a base, or be able to reach third off a single, or score off a double.
Agreed. That 6.1 WAR megaseason he had probably isn’t going to be repeated soon, but I also think last year’s 0.6 mark was probably an aberration, too. It seems reasonable he returns to the 2.7-3.2 level he was at in 2007-2008. And with the market as it is, that justifies his contract… and then some.
Moving back to third will probably help him settle back in, too.
Indeed. For Kouz alone it won’t be worth it. That pitcher better be pretty good. I’m kind of excited about the prospect of freeing up a bunch of money though.
Angels will not even attempt to get Chone back into the fold. Once your gone…. your gone!!!
I’m still trying to figure out why this comment was even posted.
I didn’t know A’s was short for A(ngel)’s.
My gone what?
‘you’re’ gone, not ‘your’ gone. Please try to keep up.
He can’t possibly be as bad as he was last year. Looks like Beane may think he has a great shot at the division. With the young pitching he may be right.
The more I think about this the more I like it GoA’s!
Sub Milton Bradley for Figgins and you have yourself a deal Beane.
haha Milton hates Billy and was very vocal about it, thats how he got traded to SD.
Really? I can’t picture Milton hating anything with his great personality.
The more I think about this, the more I like it GoA’s!
This would be a great deal for the A’s … but if thats all it takes is kouz + a pitcher (prob a minor leaguer) .. You would think other teams would jump in and try to land him
I’ve been preaching for AA to pull the trigger on figgins, he makes so much sense for the Jays right now
Jack Z got fleeced once already by the Jays in the Morrow for League trade… lets hope he’s interested in bending over again… Question however, Lawrie might not be up this year, but what do we do next year when he’s most likely ready and we re-sign Bautista… Lawrie and Snider could play the corners, Davis in CF (or someone else) and then Bautista would move to 3rd… OR Lawrie at 3rd, and Bautista in the corner OF spot…
For this year, might look good… but the next 2 years? we already have a solid Util infielder in Johnny Mac…
And… what pieces would we need to give up for Figgins do you think?
Hmm thats a tough call.. Jays have a lot of arms and the Mariners rotation is kind of thin behind King Felix. I would assume it would have to be a major league ready arm + a B prospect..
So I would do a
Jesse Litsch or Marc Rzep
and a prospect not in their top 10.
Personally I keep Bautista in RF, permanently. Hill’s options are coming in to play, I definitely decline his 3 year option, based on his performance I either let him go, or pick up a year and try to move him. I then move Lawrie to 2nd base.
What figgins brings to the table is far more valuable then what hill brings to the table.
Also in respect to the Morrow trade, as high on Morrow I am. He clearly needed a change of scenery. . Also people forget that Johermyn Chavez was in the deal. As a 21 year old in high A all he did was put up a line of .315/.387/.577 with 32 HR’s…
“What figgins brings to the table is far more valuable then what hill brings to the table.”
I have to question whether you would have said this last year… if Hill bounces back does this statement still hold true?
Yes, 100%
Hill would be a very nice piece on a lot of teams that lack power..
But jays don’t lack power, they have too much of it if anything..
They need people who can get on base, which Hill, even in his career season (.330 OBP) couldn’t do..
Jays at this point need people who can get on base, with legs to do something when they get on..
So I stand by my statement that for the Jays, Figgins > Hill..
Other teams may feel differently, based on their needs.. For instance, I’m sure the A’s would rather have Hill manning 3B then Figgins.
Sorry i just dont buy it , at all. I think his last season is clearly affecting your evaluation, which is understandable , but also short sighted. Sacrificing a guy with that much power for a guy who can get on obp and steal bases without much else ( assuming defence is close, i havent checked the stats) almost seems like a wash. Getting on base acts as potential runs and more outs to work with, not guaranteed to get driven in , power is instant runs. If anything its a wash in my opinion with the slight edge to power because there no guarantee the guy behind you is going to drive you in , specially since you just took one of those guy’s out( hill ) who normally drives guys in as opposed to talking a ton of walks.
Yes, Chavez is the difference maker. He also had 30 doubles and 7 triples to go along with his 32 homers. Those numbers were put up at High Desert, so this year will be more of a true take on his skills when he plays a full year at Jackson. In 2 years we will be able to comment on who got the better of this deal.
“Jack Z got fleeced once already by the Jays in the Morrow for League trade…”
Technically, it was Morrow for League and Johermyn Chavez, who had a great year in A ball in 2010.
And just wait for Morrow to regress more this year before you celebrate too much there. 😉
Yah, probably not.. Jays have handled him pretty well, he was jerked around as a mariner.
I wish the Mariners kept Morrow but I’m happy with Chavez because Morrow needed a change of scenery. Also we already got 3 years out of Morrow before we traded him so the Jays only have have 2-3 years of control left of Morrow where he will get a hefty raise through arbitration and worry about resigning him. Also Morrow might regress since the AL east will make adjustments and its not like hes playing in Safeco anymore, theres also the concern that he is a type 1 diabetic
I forgot A-ball is what decides someone’s future as an MLB player… my bad… Chavez wouldnt fit much into the Jays lineup in a couple years anyways… we have much higher rated prospects than him who will be in the OF… I’d rather have an OF of Snider, Gose, Lawrie (or Bautista) in a couple years… and Morrow is a high k rate 3/4 starter whos turning 26…
“I forgot A-ball is what decides someone’s future as an MLB player… my bad…”
Just like it’s my bad that I thought it took more than 1 year of data to determine that one team unilaterally wins a trade, and even fleeces the other team. Yep, my bad on that one. 😉
Basically, my point is this: the M’s got more than just Brandon League. In addition, they got a prospect *who significantly improved his stock* from the previous year(2009), when he was with his previous organization(the Blue Jays). So, whether the M’s hold onto him and use him in a few years in their MLB lineup or not is a moot point. They have an asset that has gained value, and if they could somehow turn League and Chavez into a player even better than Morrow who would be young and cost-controlled(by trading those 2 guys next offseason for that player) and put up several seasons of high WAR, it could be argued that they won the trade, especially if Morrow regresses(which I suspect he might–not saying he will.)
Will this happen? Who knows? I’m just saying that we’ll need several more years to judge who really won the trade, that’s all.
Or is that too much for you to understand?
Drives me crazy when people don’t understand that prospects have a value independent of whatever their future production may be.
Why do you expect Morrow to regress? The 11 K/9 not good enough for you?
IF you watched Morrow pitch in any year other than last you could easily imagine some regression.
But the key is that the Mariners were jerking him around between the rotation and the ‘pen. That plays a huge role in someone’s mental toughness, not knowing how they’ll be used.
Jury is still out on that trade, buddy.
Until Johermyn Chavez reaches the Majors and we see what he can do, the word “fleeced” should not be used when referencing this trade.
I can’t see AA wanting Figgins, especially with that 26.5MM contract. Besides, he has JBau who’ll likely play 3B this year for the Jays and is under control thru 2011…unless he trades him at the deadline for a huge haul
even with don wakamatsu on staff, him and chone would be at each others throats in no time. chone is a selfish cancer that will disappoint any team that picks up his sorry ass and his bloated contract. although if you want your manager fired he just might be your guy
Kouzmanoff is really a dead man walking in Oakland, isn’t he? They’ve been trying to replace him since the World Series ended.
I’m not really sure why anyone would be interested in Kouz other than the fact that he’s cheap. He hasn’t done too much since he was overhyped on his way to the majors.
I think its just the mariners needed to fill the position once Chone departs
I bet they’re losing tons of sleep over losing jack hannahan….i can’t say this with a straight face…
That would be a nice buy-low deal for the A’s. If they can make this work, then a good gamble for sure.
Unless the pitcher is good, this sucks for the M’s. Figgins was lousy the first have, but did get on base. The second half of the year he was a completely different player, and hit over .300 the last two months of the season.
If this does happen you give up KK power. 15+ HR but at the same time you gain Chone’s OBP and speed. So where in the lineup would you place him? Coco was a great leadoff hitter last season and I was thinking of DeJesus batting 2nd. But now that would change everything, assuming this deal does fall through
Before this (potential) trade, I’m pretty sure Barton would have hit 2nd, DeJesus 3rd, Willingham 4th, Matsui 5th, etc. Not sure where they’d put Figgins. But trust me. There will be plenty of room. Not everyone will be healthy at the same time, I’m sure. There are too many players with health concerns on the team. That’s the main reason they’ve been adding so much depth.
Hopefully everyone DOES stay mostly healthy though. I’d love to see them have that problem on their hands!
Move Crisp or Figgins to the 9 slot and the line up ends up turning over a batter early. I like the move if they cater their offense to their players, i.e. small ball.
Wow…I’ll admit as an M’s fan that Jack Z. should never have signed Figgins to that contract–it wasn’t horrible, but it wasn’t great, either.
Having said that, if Billy Beane wants to take on that contract and give up anything of quality in return, I say go for it. Beane really hasn’t been “the” Billy Beane for a few years(really, ever since the Matt Holliday fiasco, he seems to have lost a step or two), and saddling him with a few years of Chone Figgins at 3B is fine with me.
Sure, the A’s may contend in 2011 because the Angels and M’s won’t, but they have some question marks in their lineup past 2011. I guess with the utter void of 3B help in their minor league system, getting Figgins gives them one less question mark, but they’ll have other worries, and and an aging Chone Figgins being paid more than he’s worth in 2012 and 2013 will be yet another.
So, sure, A’s fans–rejoice for 1 year, but regret it the next 2. This will give the M’s even more flexibility in 2012 when other bad contracts come off the books(Milton Bradley, if not sooner, and Jack Wilson, in addition to the money owed to Carlos Silva and Yuniesky Betancourt).
Get it done, Jack.
I like this for the A’s… depending on the pitcher involved.
This is awsome! The trades and signings this winter has really changed the game all over. Each division had teams make significant improvements. I bet Figgins would do well for the A’s. Has his defense declined? Why no mention of him ever playing 2B for anyone anymore?
Neither team in question needs him at 2B, is all. The A’s have Ellis, and the M’s are hoping to start Ackley at 2B on Opening Day. 3B is his most natural position anyway. So it’s probably good he’s moving back there.
Well, actually, it seems unlikely that Ackley will be the Opening Day 2B, mostly due to service time consideration(free agency/arbitration clock). In addition, the M’s probably want him to work on his defense at AAA.
Not saying it’s impossible, just unlikely. Also, that’s why the M’s have been acquiring other infielders such as Brendan Ryan and Adam Kennedy(who now may be released from his minor league contract after his DUI, but we’ll see.) One of them will most likely start the season at 2B.
My point exactly. Figgins “D” must be weak at 2B. He screams second baseman; small slap hitter that steals bases…
Not many third basemen fit in that category but plenty of second basemen. This is driving my thinking that he must not be very good defensively
Why are the Angels not all over this??
If they could send Callaspo/Izturis to Seattle with a minor leaguer for Figgins, why wouldn’t they. Having Figgins back to man third base and lead off would be HUGE! Then you can put Aybar and whoever back towards the bottom of the order where there is less pressure.
I know Figgy would be more expensive than just getting Pods or staying pat, but he would fill two holes of need: Third base and leadoff…
Just sayin’, I hope they’re thinking about it.
Vernon Wells for Chone Figgins???
I heard the Angels are shopping Wells’ contract already
Where did u “hear” that one?!
Mike Oxlong
Heywood Jablome is another good source for rumors, and he said the same thing.
Heywood Jablome is another good source for rumors, and he said the same thing.
Jon Heyman
WTF, Kouzmanoff?? Maybe with a package around Brett Anderson, but Kouzmanoff??
hahaha that’s a good one
Coming from a Mariner fan… You’re nuts if you think Figgins is worth Brett Anderson.. especially when he’s owed $26MM. Kouz plus an interesting young pitcher would be a great swap as long as Seattle didn’t have to kick in a ton (or any) money.
I love this deal for the A’s (maybe I’m biased: A’s fan who hates Kouz). Kouz was our main hole on defense and Chone makes one of the best defenses in the league better at a very important defensive position. Just hope the pitcher isn’t significant. Hoping it’s a reliever not named Bailey.
Even if you don’t like Kouz, he wasn’t the main hole on defense. I saw 15 or so games at the Coliseum. He was awfully good, though that incredible UZR is suspect. His offense on the other hand…
Did you not watch many A’s games last year? Kouzmanoff plays excellent defense!
I watched a ton of A’s games last year and probably went to 20+. Didn’t even check the UZR which I probably should have but I always thought he was overrated on D. Thought too many people gave him credit for low error totals in 2009. I could totally be tripping because with defense eyes can often deceive but I thought his range was limited. Maybe I was just spoiled with Chavez because even after he developed a DL addiction he made it look easy at the hot corner. If it’s not a clear defensive upgrade I will rethink my position because it seems like we’ve collected enough guys with zero power.
Yeah. Watching Chavez for years does tend to spoil. He was unbelievable when he was in his prime.
Figgins would be a wash with Kouzmanoff, defensively. But he should be a fairly big upgrade, offensively. He doesn’t bring any power. And you’re right, they could definitely use some more. But Figgins is an on-base machine, and he’s great on the basepaths. And speed was HUGE for the A’s in 2010. Even as good as the pitching was, they probably wouldn’t have won 70 games last year if they weren’t so good at manufacturing runs. And with Figgins, they’d still be able to do that again this year, even if Crisp spends a lot of time on the DL again. Add that with the offensive upgrades at RF, DH, and especially LF, and they seem to be in pretty good shape.
We just have to hope they can stay healthier this year.
Seems like every year we break the record for DL stints. Glad they finally canned the training staff. We acquired more players with injury in their recent history this year too. The difference is this year when Harden steps on his skirt seem and breaks his hip we should have the depth to survive. I know this sounds crazy but I would still like to see us sign Dusch to an incentive laden deal. When he got his one hip fixed the doc told him it was a congenital disorder and some day the other would have to be fixed and once it was he should be fine going forward. Well now he has both fixed and we know when he is on the mound he’s VERY good. It’s worth the slight chance he stays healthy to take a flyer on him. I imagine one of Duke, Harden, McCarthy as our 5th starter, one as our long man and one as on the DL. If we can get a combined 25+ starts out of those three we might end up with the best 5th starter in the league. Sort of like a three headed monster made of porcelain.
Doesn’t sound crazy at all. I’d LOVE to see them re-sign Duchscherer. And I’m still hopeful they might find room for him, even though they already signed McCarthy and Harden. I thought those were good low-risk signings also. But you can never have enough depth.
As far as the record injuries, I’m afraid it might not be as simple as them getting rid of the head trainer. When they re-hired Bob Alejo two years ago, after all those injuries in 2007 and 2008, it seemed to make a huge difference in 2009. Then in 2010 it got bad again. I think a lot of it is just bad luck. And it also hurts that the A’s usually have no choice but to sign injury-prone free agents, since top free agents without warts never want to come to Oakland.
I’m not so certain this deal is good for Oakland. While I agree KK isn’t the long-term answer at 3B, I don’t see the advantage of assuming Figgins and his 26.5MM contract, plus sending a pitcher. Figgins had a career low in OPS and SLG in 2010, and his OBP of .340 isn’t exactly top of the order worthy. If I were Beane, I would ask Jack Z to include some $$, and I would make the deal straight up, and not throw in a reliever or starter–At 33,Figgins clearly isn’t the player he used to be when with the Angels.
Chone Figgins will never leave the AL West
Didn’t he come up in the Rockies organization? Not sure if he ever played a game for them though.
Spot on bud
Jays in as 3rd team, according to Buster
I would like to see Figgins in Toronto, playing 3B, leading off. Maybe it would be Kouz coming back though….
Figgins isn’t the right fit in Toronto. Too old, too much money. It’s the A’s who want Figgins, that’s the entire point of the three way.
Haha… three way…. (had to say it)
Pleaseeeeee let me hear “Jose Bautista of the Oakland Athletics” very soon!
hahahahah
I´m preety sure that the M´s will end with Brett Lawrie, Jack Z drafted him and he loves his tools, I don´t know how, but Jack is obsessed with him…
Marcum for Lawrie followed by Lawrie for Kouzmanoff. If that happens the shine will rub off AA pretty quickly.
Only Jack Z gets ripped off by AA in trades, not the only way around.
There is no way that the M’s are gong to be getting Lawrie.
Why would Brett Lawrie be traded for Kevin Kouzmanoff? Is Dustin Ackley coming back the Jays way or?
yeah, your smoking the wrong plant if you think your getting Ack
Felix Hernandez! I knew it!
well considering AA was also obsessed with getting him for some time as he said, maybe it doesnt matter how badly z wants him lol
From the perspective of someone who isn’t a Jays fan, AA is doing a great job, especially if this rumor is true.
Maybe something like this:
Mariners receives: Brett Lawrie
Blue Jays receives: Kouzmanoff and 2 prospects, 1 for Seattle, 1 for Oakland, and some cash
Oakland receives: Figgins and 1 million or so…
That sir, is completely bananas.
What is this obsession with Lawrie being in the trade? Kevin Kouzmanoff doesn’t have the talent to justify a top prospect being in the deal, even if a lower one is coming back.
Joking right? Sometimes sarcasm is hard to read on the internet, I guess them same way that stupidity is. Lawrie isn’t going to be part of this
We get it, you like Brett Lawrie. So does everyone. Send back Ackley and AA will talk.
Ackley >>>> Lawrie. No. Why not just ask for The King?
LeBron plays in Miami
I have a strange feeling lawrie will be better then ackley, not defensively, but with the bat for sure, specially in the power department.
The A’s are on Figgin’s limited no-trade clause – there’s a shocker.
What if this becomes Figgins flipped to the Jays, Bautista traded to the A’s, and Kouzmanoff to Seattle? as the key parts of the trade, that is.
A’s would get their power guy and 3b man, even though he’s pretty bad at defense.
No. No. No. No.
AA is in the business of dumping bad contracts, not swallowing them.
What is with the stupid comments today? This is just another one. Bautista and Lawrie are going nowhere unless it is for something spectacular.
How come fans always look at the deal only from the “Yeah, this makes sense from MY team’s perspective” angle? Why the heck would the Blue Jays do that? The whole point of the 3B is so that Bautista can go back to RF where he’s best. It’s not “we need an upgrade over Bautista.”
I am hoping and praying the A’s get Figgins AND Bautista. Who is this mystery pitcher the A’s are giving up to Sea/Tor? If it goes down this way Billy could then flip DeJesus for Blanton to replace whatever pitcher he lost.
As a Phillies fan, I like your thinking, except We don’t need a left handed hitting outfielder. As much as I LOVE DeJesus, Oakland would be more inclined to trade Willingham than DeJesus, if they somehow managed to get Bautista in the deal (which, reality check, ain’t happening).
But I’d swap Willingham and Blanton in a heartbeat, and give you guys Ibanez too.
Everybody can stop the Lawrie to Mariner’s rumour immediately unless Ackley is coming back or two guys like Poythress and Pineda. As for the real trade rumours, I have alway kind have liked Kouzmanoff for some strange reason. I can see one of the Jays’ bullpenners in a trade if there is a 3 way going on but I don’t see Figgin’s waiving his no trade clause to go to Oakland.
There is a difference between rumour and wild speculation… The idea of Lawrie being involved is an example of the latter
Lawrie? Bautista? Some good crack being smoked int his thread…
Jason Frasor for Kouz might make sense.
That’s what I was thinking. AA said yesterday he was still looking for a 3B but he is obviously not going to trade Lawrie (a guy he has seriously coveted) and Bautista is not getting traded at this point (he rejected Boston’s offer).
I do think Frasor for Kouz makes sense but I can also see Jansenn being involved or some average prospect(s).
Maybe Dotel. I can’t see a reason to give up somebody useful like frasier for a minor defensive upgrade. It would just push Rivera out of the lineup.
Isn’t kouzmanoff almost the same as EE. 250 avg 20 or so home runs and below average defense. Not much of an upgrade really.
Kouzmanoff is one of the best defensive 3B’s in all of basebal whereas E5 is a butcher. So no.
The real question is what is Seattle looking for in return, that Oakland can’t (or won’t) give them, and how do they replace Kouzmanoff, if he’s being shipped to another team? They still need a third baseman, unless they are considering moving Wilson or Brendan Ryan (who are both primarily shortstops, btw…) to third and giving the 2b job to Ackley??
Considering Ichiro was one of their best power hitters last year I’d say they should seek offense desperately.
Didn’t you hear? Ichiro can hit 40 HRs if he wants to! He just chooses to hit 200 singles instead
Ichiro doesn’t do push ups, he pushes the Earth down.
40 more total bases.
Apparently Figgins has a limited no trade clause, and the A’s are on it. Nobody wants to play for the A’s in Oakland. It is a terrible stadium, in a terrible area, with terrible (or more accurately, mostly non-existent) fans. But, they do have a better chance to win than Seattle, so that is something.
Well, they have a better opportunity to win than the Angels as well. Remember, no trade or limited trade clauses are usually established when the contract is signed, so maybe it was just based on a perception at the time of a directionless A’s team?
I realize that is the general consensus, though I disagree with the A’s having a better team than the Angels. But I admit that I am biased. I just don’t see the A’s pitching putting up the numbers they did last year, and I am not super up on an old Dejesus. Willingham is decent, but he has moved from a good hitters park to one of the worst in the league, so I don’t see him putting up amazing numbers. As for Matsui, he was terrible for the Angels all year when it mattered, then played ok at the end of the season when there was nothing to play for. They will be ok, I just don’t think they are the second best team in the division.
Anyway, you may be correct regarding Figgins’ limited no trade. I am sure it was signed at the time he agreed to the Mariners’ contract, and the A’s were worse then. But, most people don’t want to play in Oakland. See any number of FAs who turned away the A’s decent offers. They couldn’t get Beltre’s interest or any number of other players. The only additions the A’s have made for several years are guys that couldn’t sign elsewhere, or they traded for (and those guys had no choice). I don’t know if you have been to Oakland or the A’s stadium, but it doesn’t get much worse than that.
lets go A.A pick either one of them
the more I think about who Toronto may be after in this, and what they have to offer, I’m wondering if they may be trying to end up with Ackley somehow…
No chance. Ackley is a better prospect than Lawrie and Toronto traded Marcum for the latter. The players in this deal just aren’t of the calibre it’d take to wrestle Ackley from the M’s.
Why would the M’s deal Ackley? Unless Drabek’s going back, I don’t see it.
I wish that were the case, but i am pretty sure that it is not going to be the case–maybe Hill is being put in somewhere to make it even more intriguing
If Billy somehow turns this deal into Jose Bautista I am going to buy season tickets.
Yeah I heard it’s Jose Bautista, Brett Lawrie and Kyle Drabek for Kyle Kouzmanoff and Michael Taylor.
……
I dont care about Brett Lawrie, Oakland has like 7 2B prospects internally who all have decent ceilings.
Lawrie isn’t going to be a 2B in the majors, and his ceiling is higher than any of those 7 you speak of.
Not sure what’s more egregious. The idea that you thought I was being serious or the opinion that Brett Lawrie has a “decent ceiling”.
You are the dumbest person on this thread, you consistently misread what people are saying and end up calling yourself out as being dumb without even knowing you’re doing it.
You should almost take pride in how clueless you are because I have read this site for years, and just now, on this very day, signed up just so I could voice this opinion.
^ This was productive… :-/
What about this…
Oakland gets Figgins
Toronto gets Kouzmanoff
Seattle gets Encarnacion (who plays 3b…)
With a few other fringe players in the mix and cash likely changing hands in some way.
Then AA goes out and signs guerrero to dh
If I was the Jays and A’s I’d do that in a heartbeat!!! But if those were the players I think Seattle would want a lil more than E5? AA would be even more of a genius getting rid of E5 and adding Vlad and Kouz!!
I would guess that Toronto would be willing to send one of their fringe closers (Francisco, Dotel or Rauch) to Seattle as well. That’s likely why they are getting involved. Seattle Wants pitching, Oakland doesn’t want to give it up, Seattle gets a third baseman and a pitcher for about 1/3 of what they are paying Figgins, and get out from under his contract. Oakland only absorbs about 5 mil more in payroll this year with Figgins, and Toronto has a couple million more to sign Vlad to a 1 year deal he’s willing to take.
Toronto’s lineup
Davis CF
Hill 2B
Bautista RF
Guerrero DH
Kuzmanoff 3B
Rivera LF
Lind 1B
Molina/Arenciba C
They would have some pop for sure.
There is also an issue with trading freshly signed free agents… considered really poor form. You can take Rauch and Dotel off the table. Francisco is probably the best of the bunch and I doubt he’s going anywhere.
You’d figure Snider might work his way into the lineup here and there too. Maybe Escobar once in a while for kicks.
you forgot SS Escobar. he is going to bat 2nd, Hill is better down around 5/6.
if the Jays do trade one of the bullpen arms, it’s likely to be Frasor.
“their fringe closers (Francisco, Dotel or Rauch)”
One of these is not the other. Plus why would Seattle WANT a one year reliever? They aren’t competing this year. YES I know they traded Morrow for League. But A) That was a historically DUMB trade and B) They thought they were competing last year.
as a Jays fan I’d like to see Kouzmanoff. I think he is a little underrated. I always liked Kouz when he was with San Diego and his stats away from PETCO were always impressive. last year I think was just a down season, but he should bounce back.
his stats while with SD away from PETCO..
09- .287/.323/.455/.778
08- .292/.329/.473/.803
07- .273/.327/.496/.824
Aaron Hill to the Mariners?
Let’s throw out every Jays name that’s on the roster.
I wouldn’t mind Figgins on the Jays if they can get him in a buy-low trade. He would add walks to this lineup which is desperately needs, and he would also be a nice top of the lineup combo that has a ton of speed with Davis. I think we’ve seen that he can be a good defensive 3B, which would be another big boost for the Jays since their D isn’t the greatest. I wouldn’t over-spend for a guy like Figgins, as he’s no guarantee or anything especially coming off a very bad year and he’s set to earn 9mil next season. If Toronto could grab him for one of their depth arms and a lower prospect, i’d take that. As for Oakland…it would be a decent upgrade, depending on what pitcher they were giving up with Kouz (who, because of defense provides some pretty damn good value for the price).
My prediction:
Oakland gets Figgins.
Seattle gets an OAK pitching prospect plus Juan Rivera to platoon at DH/OF with starters Cust and/or Saunders, who were both absolutely dismal last year against LHP.
Toronto gets Kouzmanoff, which allows Bautista to remain at his preferred position in RF, a precondition for the contract extension he’ll sign before opening day.
That scenario might fly
I could see that happening, but I don’t think Kouzmanoff gets an extension as I don’t think Toronto would want him as a long term option, more of a bridge to Lawrie (who is probably their “3B of the future” right now)
I think he means an extension for Bautista.
most logical trade proposal yet. still a bit light for the mariners no?
Bautista to the A’s. Figgins and Braden to the Blue Jays. Kouzmanoff and Blevins to the Mariners. Would that work?
I wouldnt want Braden
Besides a perfect game, a shut out, 3 other complete games, and a 1.16 whip, how exactly is Braden a “bad pitcher” that neither of you would want. My only guess is that you like being losers.
I didnt say he was a bad pitcher, I only said that I wouldnt want him. Not based on anything, but I think last year was a fluke.
You mean the last two years with a 3 WAR were flukes right? Yeah who wants a 26 year old pitcher who’s been above average the past three years and WELL above average the last two.
The real question is why on earth the Jays would trade the reigning HR hitter for a superfluous player? Stick him in the Rogers Centre in the AL East and if he’s better than any of their top 3 starters it would be an absolute shock. It’s the same reason they traded Shaun Marcum. Low ceiling.
dude has a 4.69 xFIP. He’s gets a heck a lot of help from the A’s brilliant D and gigantic park
Why would the Jays want a bad contract AND a bad pitcher for Bautista? Ugh..
For AA to trade Bautista it would need to net more than Figgins and Braden, IMO. (although, I disagree with those that think Bautista is untouchable. He is coming off a career year that will likely never be duplicated, and hasn’t ever shown that much before. His value will never be higher than today. If AA thinks he’s not worth what he’ll get in arbitration, or thinks last year was a fluke, he’ll move him if someone wants him badly enough.
A how about Seattle gets Bautista? You all think that Jackie Z is desperate to relieve payroll. If it wasn’t for Ichiro blocking Figgins, Figgins would have been our leadoff guys and done better in 2010. Seattle is STILL under their expected 2011 budget by about $10M. We don’t have to move Figgins, and the Z man will get the best package available for Figgins. Jays and A’s are the ones that are desperate for a quality defensive 3B. A’s can keep Kouzmanoff!!! If Seattle is liquidating Figgins salary NO WAY are we taking on Kouzmanoff for another $5M. The Z Man will run with a minumum wage AAA prospect like Truinfel. I don’t think AA wants to get rid of Bautista in this trade, even “if” A’s were involved, but the Jays have one of the top 4 farm systems in MLB, and the Z Man would add to our farm system in Seattle somehow.
I would like a Jays/Seattle trade and keep A’s out of this. So I would like to see what others would suggest in a Jays/Seattle Figgins move?!
Seattle isn’t competing this year. why the heck would they want bautista, who’s probably going to cost as much as figgins?
pretty sure desperate is the last thing the jays are, bautista at third is more then sufficient considering we just had encarnacion there… these trade proposals r insane lol
Wow. I came into this offseason thinking that Figgins was a bad contract. I was actually hoping the Mets and Mariners might have built a trade around Figgins for K-Rod.
I’ve read all the comments above about his WAR value, and how that equals $10 million a year, but I keep coming back to this- is he worth more or less this offseason than he was last? And how much less? And, from there, how is the contract he signed last offseason not overpaying him now? Because, if he was a free agent right now, I have a hard time believing he would get 3 years at $27 million, which is what I take is left on his contract.
If this goes through, it’s a total STEAL for the Mariners
If WHAT goes through?
I haven’t heard anything as to who the Jays would be giving up. regardless of whether the Jays would be getting Figgins or Kouzmanoff, I would not expect it to be much going the other way. it would be more like a Juan Rivera type player.
it won’t be a top prospect like Lawrie.
it won’t be someone like Bautista. as much as I hope the Jays do not extend Bautista and would like to see him traded, the Jays could get much better than either Figgins or Kouzmanoff.
This is nearing “stupidist trade proposals of the year” quality.
nope. nothing can top stanton for guillen
I’d give it to Napoli and Rivera for Wells and his contract, hands down worst trade proposal of the year (decade).
Sad (read: funny) that it was proposed by a GM, and the one on the “losing” end no less…
no way. If the Stanton – Guillend deal actually happened, it would be the joke of the century.
Agreed. I forgot about that one.
Figgins has an .811 OPS in Oakland’s Park over past 3 yrs. Kouz = .671. Beltre = .858.
Looks like a good upgrade to me. Beltre would have been nice, but Figgins has done quite well in Oaktown.
My bad on previous echo.
Dude. Quit it with the echo.
Now fixed.
he is not bad but he is not great…he is a solid good pitcher nothing more nothing less
Sorry, I edited the previous post about Braden since it was an accidental repost. Believe what you like, but with average run support he could have 16-9 last year. He is easily a number 2 or 3 pitcher on most teams not in Philly.
st. louis and San Fran wouldn’t be too thrilled with him at #2 either. The Braves wouldn’t take that too kindly either.
Agreed. I did say most. Philly is just the most obviously stacked staff.
Or Red Sox, or probably even the Yankees for that matter (particularly A-Rod)
thats basically what i said. he is a good solid pitcher not a great one…not even close to great but still good and solid most teams would love to have him on their team
6.71 is an INSANE OPS… So what, 1.000 OBP coupled with a 5.710 SLG? 😉
Funny. Now fixed.
This is excellent… Starts off with average to below average third basemen… Now all three fanbases are asking for each others top prospects and last year’s homerun champion…
It all starts with one fan saying Jack Z loves Lawrie. Then it snowballs.
These comments are too funny. Figgins to Kouzmanoff to Bautista to Lawrie to Ackley to Drabek to Taylor.
You guys realize we are talking about overpaid average third basemen and a decent bench third basemen? No one’s top prospects will be involved.
you gotta wonder if he is truly available what it would cost. I would bet kenny williams, even though he says there is no more money, tried to get him. He has this thing about trying to get players missing out on them and getting them at a later date. See adruw jones, griffey, dunn
any shot aaron hill is in a trade? hes due about $31 mil over the next 4 years but they have to decide if they want th last 3 years $26 mil prior to this season.. opens up lawrie for 2b
I don’t remember, but isn’t Lawrie expected to play somewhere other than 2B in the future?
Hill will bounce back, he was unlucky in 2010. he is also still only 27 years old.
even if the Jays do have thoughts on trading Hill, now is not the time to do it as his value is so low right now.
he wasnt unlucky in 2010, he just sucked. You can look at the BABIP and convince the naive that he was unlucky, but you have to dig a step deeper. Look how much his LD% dropped, it was much much more than unlucky.
saying he sucked is a bit harsh no? He still played great defence.
i suppose that is true, and 20HR’s is always nice but overall, he was a few notches above replacement level.
REPLACEMENT LEVEL WUZZAT HE HIT 20HRS GO JAYS
yeah and batted around the mendoza line with a sub .700 OPS..fool.
sarcasm doesn’t work well on the internet does it
The Jays have Lawrie working out at 3B according to him.
I just noticed this article, and nearly choked on my gum when I read Olney thinking the Jays would be interested in Kouz. Like we need another sub .300 OBP player. Stick to the Sox, Buster!
Incorrect. They only have to decide on the 3rd year prior to the season. They can still pick up the first two options after the year.
That is the most sensible solution I have read all day. That deal could actually work.
Personally I think toronto could work. It would give the Jays a 1 and 2 of figgins and escobar and upgrade the infield defense.
Is there a PIE in the sky out there in oakland??
no but theres one on the O’s bench
Wow why even bring up Figgins if nothing is going to happen.I get all excited then i hear he’s staying.
dont know why the A’s want a washed up guy like Figgins.. I’d rather have Eric Chavez
Yeah, but who’s gonna play the other 150 games?
but that was last year so i guess you do have a point
Please let the other team be the Angels! Tony Reagins, do one thing right this off season please!
why would u want him back hes washed up..Aramis Ramirez will be available at the earliest in June and in to late July he’s not much better if at all but trade a few lower level minor league players for him.. not to mention Anaheim Angels are 90% non American..aka Mexican hahaha
there is no way that the jays trade for figgins. the reason is that we are discussing it. i can’t think of a single trade that AA has done that we (media/blogs/fans) knew/though/discussed was coming.
aside from the halladay trade, but even that trade leaked with the former gm, then came out of nowhere the second time around with philly when AA was on the case.
So does this mean Eric Chavez is a no go?
because in 2009 he put up a 6.1 WAR, that’s why they would want him.
you’re basing your opinion on one bad year
Figgins was never a good fit in Seattle anyways. They switched him to 2B and he wasn’t leading off like he’s used to. You would think Oakland would give him the chance to play 3B and leadoff so it’s a great fit.
Why would the Mariners want to help Oakland contend this year though?
Good thing he turns those walks into doubles… 40 + SB’s
That was largely driven by a career high spike in UZR. He was an average 2 WAR player for the past 5 years.
And that’s what he got paid to be. Going rate for a Win on the FA market is around $5M. He averaged 2.3 WAR per season for the five-year span prior to his 6.1 WAR year, and that’s including a fluke low replacement level season one year.
4/36 wasn’t a bad deal for Seattle, even if he wound up producing 2.5 WAR per season. First year didn’t work out that way though obviously.
mariners officially moved him back to third
Coco was great as a leadoff hitter last season, not sure if they would move him that easy
He had a 2.7 WAR in 2008. Safely above average.
Figgins has had two crap years since becoming a regular, 2006 and 2010. In his other seasons as a regular, his WARs are 3.2, 2.4, 3.2, 2.7, and 6.1. He also put up a 1.6 WAR in half a season in 2003. Even including his bad years, that means he’s averaged 2.4 WAR per season over the last 7 and a half years.
With 1 WAR going at around $5MM in this market, that puts Figgins at around $12MM a year in value. And with his deal at only $9MM/$9MM/$8MM over the next three years and the cost of WAR continuing to go up, he can decline some each year of his deal and still totally justify his cost.
I find his low SLG distasteful and annoying, too, but there’s no denying his value.
He was a platoon player in 2007 and every year before that. You can’t count those as full season’s WAR.
Agreed. I was arguing pretty much the same thing above.
I’ve been basing my win rate at $4M/WAR, but either way, agreed, it’s not a terrible contract within a vaccum. However, 2 WAR players aren’t difficult to find. 11 2Bs and 16 3Bs had 2+ WAR last year. And for comparison’s sake, Placido Polanco signed a $6MM/yr contract averaging a 3 WAR for the same time period. So with that in mind 4/36 is high.
His “fluke year” was also caused by low UZR as a result of playing most of his games in center field. I think you’re about right…he’s around a 2.5 WAR guy and is getting paid like it. I’d be happy to keep him on my M’s, but we aren’t going anywhere this year. Better to save the money for the draft.
Kevin Kouzmanoff has posted consistent WAR of 2.5, 2.7, 2.7 and 2.9 the past four seasons and remains under his team’s control for up to two abitration seasons, including 2011 at a salary of $4.75 million.
Agree 100%, it was sarcasm, if the M´s can unload his contract, next year will be awasome in terms of money, they could have a lot of money,
Bradley, Yuni, Silva: 15 millions I think
Figgins: 9.5 millions
Jack Wilson: 5 million
15+9.5+5=29.5 millions
29.5 millions=Albert Pujols, love it…
Honest question; did you hate the Crawford signing? Because his offense alone is not nearly worth that contract, so a lot of the justification for that signing is based on those same defensive statistics.
I also have to wonder if you like Jose Iglesias, because looking at Figgins’ 162 game average those are about the numbers people HOPE Iglesias puts up offensively, likely minus half of the stolen bases.
You’re totally right about WAR: it does use defensive stats that are better judged over multiple years. Good thing we have 7 and a half years to judge Figgins on. His defensive value at 3B more than holds up during that span. And those good numbers match his reputation with scouts, so the old “I don’t trust these newfangled stats” argument doesn’t hold much water here.
As for the salary figures, Figgins’ salaries were found at Cot’s, as ever. And the $5MM per WAR going rate has been noted around 10,000 times this offseason, including multiple times on *this page.*
OPS is a pretty limited stat, in that it overstates the importance of SLG, understates the importance of OBP, and says nothing about baserunning or defense at all. So yes, when you use a stat like that to evaluate a guy whose strong suits are OBP, defense, and baserunning, he seems to come up short.
Luckily, we have better metrics these days that include these things.
He played nearly everyday those seasons (except when injured). While he played multiple positions, it is absurd to not count that as a full season’s WAR
I don’t want to be that guy who gets all “HERPDERP! That stat is so 1999! HERPDERP!” on you, but you might want to take a look at some of the more comprehensive metrics out there and see if there’s something you’d rather base your arguments on other than OPS.
As mentioned above, OPS overstates the importance of SLG, understates the importance of OBP, and says nothing about baserunning or defense at all. It’s not park or league adjusted either.
Matter of fact, Chone Figgins is just about an ideal test case for why using OPS as your go-to stat just flat out doesn’t work in many cases.
WAR is a flawed statistic, but according to OPS, Vernon Wells had a better season than Chase Utley… Okey doke.
Just so you guys know, you’re arguing with the same guy who swears by prospect rankings, almost as if they’re a sure thing to bet on. You might as well be talking to a wall.
Noted. I need to start reading a guy’s other posts before I decide whether to engage.
Good insight here even though a bit lengthy…
I thought it was interesting you saying B Ryan could man #2 spot in the lineup on a short term basis, that guy stinks with a bat in his hand. (putting in nicely) Jack Wislon isn’t much better and really they seem so similarir its scary.
Secondly, it’s interesting you don’t think the A’s have much in the lineup (obvious from your sarcastic “60 HR” comment), but I feel it is so much better than the M’s it prob isnt even worth going thru. Ultimately, the Mariners are competing with the Royals as the worst team in the American League and the A’s are middle of the pack with the Angels but not to the caliber of the AL Champ Rangers. If it weren’t for the Pirates and Nats they would be at the cellar of all of baseball.
Didn’t realize that’s what Moneyball was about. I guess I should have just let Joe Morgan sum it up for me.
WAR in last 4 years:
Figgins: 12.6
Kouz: 10.8
When you factor in their salaries, it’s not really much of an upgrade for the A’s.
ooh, well played.
Big deal, figgins is overated. No sense is arguing it.
your delivery made me lol
You have to compare Utley to other 2B not every player in the league. The “usage” of stats is usually flawed not the stat itself…
Rocket surgery? Do tell.
Cherry picking a bit, but I see the point
Figgins is still much more valuable than Kouz.
“last year shouldn’t even be counted for figgins as he was moved to a position”
Seriously? Yeah and let’s take out all those AB’s Kouzmanoff had against good pitchers like Felix Hernandez since we’re in the ridiculous business of picking and choosing what counts and what doesn’t. Thanks.
Sucks being wrong doesn’t it? You already lost dude
Crawford also hasn’t been forced to play every position but his natural position for the majority of his career. Figgins’ natural position is 3B, his defensive numbers at 3B have also stayed fairly consistent other than one year (and it was a year in which he played nearly 100 games in CF, plus another 30 between LF, RF, 2B and SS)
Man this dude is going down in flames…
“- if oakand plays him somewhere other than third, his value will go down and the analysis will change. but they won’t, so it doesn’t”
Yeah I heard if Joe Mauer doesn’t catch, he isn’t as valuable either. Go figure.
“- his splits in the new park tell the story of last year”
Whereas Kouzmanoff is playing in a bandbox right? Oh wait.
“- his production last season is a massive outlier and there is no reason to project it going forward; you project a return to form”
Guess what – A 6 WAR season was a bigger outlier for him than a 0.6 WAR season. Let’s remove that year then too.
“- WAR over 115 games (happens in two of those years) doesn’t tell you what you need to know about a guy you’re going to play for 155 games. it certainly is of no use when comparing his ability to a guy who played 145 games over that same time”
Come up with a better stat then.
I didn’t move him to 2nd. The Mariners did. I don’t care what numbers he WOULD have put up if he was at 3rd. I’m talking about what ACTUALLY happened.
Are you being serious?
i agree, he is also redundant on the m’s. ichiro does what he does only better. the m’s would be better off trading a little defense and speed for some pop. not that kk is the solution, but it would free up some cash
I chose the Wells/Utley comp because Blackcourt is comparing Figgins arbitrarily to the rest of the league.
If you want to evaluate speed/defense/OBP guys with OPS, even though it says nothing about the first two and distorts the third, that’s your business. We will agree to disagree then.
Here’s one to consider though:
Compare these two left fielders:
Player A: .785 OPS, 24 HR, .479 SLG.
Player B: .780 OPS, 10 HR, .382 SLG.
I’m assuming you think, since you are totally comfortable relying on OPS, that these players are comparable. Or maybe, because of the slight uptick in OPS and the significantly higher homeruns and slugging percentage, you prefer player A.
Thing is, Player A is Henry Rodriguez, 1997.
Player B is Rickey Henderson, 1982.
Rodriguez was worth 0.5 WAR and Henderson was worth 6.4 WAR, on account of small differences like Henderson having 128 more stolen bases and an OBP that was 96 points higher.
Just something to chew on. WAR, whatever its flaws, evaluates a player *IN TOTAL* balancing every aspect of a player’s game in ways ways that represent total value. OPS is a distorted, imperfect way of looking at maybe 40% of those factors.
In the end, though, I am pretty sure it’s just you and H-Rod’s family who wouldn’t take Rickey Henderson over him in a hot minute.
But it unfairly weights the two of them. Slugging is weighted more heavily than on-base percentage even though research and analysis has shown that OBP is more valuable to scoring runs.
If you want to use an all-encompassing stat use wOBA.
The idea of statistics is that you can only measure data in the same type of sample. Since WAR is a stat that is defensive inclusive, and Figgins’ career is as a third baseman, you can omit his 2010 year at 2nd base. If you wanted to measure Figgins’ 2010 WAR against other years in which he played solely 2nd base you can do that, or you can measure his 2010 year against other 2nd basemen, but you’re basically saying that it counts because in both instances they were playing the game baseball.
Others of us have trouble with math, apparently.
What you said was that OPS “says a heck of a lot more about a player than WAR does.” I just gave you an example off the top of my head that proves that your “point” is plainly untrue.
I continue to find it odd that you argue against cherry-picking unbalanced stats, even as you base your arguments on OPS.
Figgins has been worth an average of 2.64 OFFENSIVE WAR over the last 7 and a half years, so even subtracting defense and even failing to adjust for position (both of which are stupid), he’s a good player.
No problem with comprehension here, dude. Your arguments just don’t hold water. Even as stated, they don’t make sense.
Figgins, by the way, has NEGATIVE defensive WAR in four of his last eight seasons, so even the argument that his WAR is unjustly inflated by defense doesn’t make sense.
For every example like Ben Zobrist’s 2009 having an impossibly high WAR, there are about 50 examples of OPS overrating or underrating guys much, much more badly.
WAR isn’t perfect. We all agree. But it’s so much more useful than OPS that arguing otherwise is ridiculous. ESPECIALLY in the cases of players like Figgins.
Arguing for OPS over WAR because WAR has some oddities and drawbacks is like arguing for Datsuns over Mercedes because sometimes the S class isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. The fact that the one isn’t perfect doesn’t prevent it from being obviously, transparently better than the other.
No, it’s not an indefensible point… Figgins’ deal may be fair in terms of WAR to dollars, but several prominent guys at his two positions have signed for less. (I’m looking at you, Orlando Hudson.) He’s not saying WAR to $$ isn’t important, let alone calling Figgins a bad player. He’s just rightly pointing out that 2B/3B not infrequently seem to sign for below the current cost of WAR.
After that magical season Figgins had no one could fault Seattle for paying the going rate. They were widely viewed as having had a “great” offseason. Hindsight being 20/20 they may look like idiots now but you can’t knock their logic at the time. Especially considering they got him for less than 5 years.
We probably should have just listened to guy who said it would be like arguing with a wall.
You know, just 128 bases
lots of walls in this thread
He was injured when he played 115 games… He was not a platoon player during this stretch.
He played in 148 and 158 games in 2004 & 2005 respectively.