Heyman On Hamilton, Young, Felix, Royals

Rangers left fielder Josh Hamilton is out for six to eight weeks after enduring a non-displaced fracture of his right shoulder and, according to Jon Heyman of SI.com, some people in Cincinnati may not be completely surprised. After the 2007 season, Reds medical people strongly suggested that the front office should trade Hamilton because of his health reports. Here’s the latest on the Rangers and other notes from around the league:

  • The Rangers were “extremely close” to sending Michael Young to Colorado about a month before Spring Training, according to Heyman. The Rockies loved Young and he would have welcomed a trade to Denver or to either L.A. team. The infielder has since reconciled himself to his role in Texas.
  • A rival GM says he’d trade Felix Hernandez to the Yankees for Ivan Nova, Dellin Betances, Manny Banuelos and Jesus Montero if he were running the Mariners.
  • One GM says Royals GM Dayton Moore did a good job of ‘bottom feeding’ this winter to come up with left-handers Bruce Chen and Jeff Francis on affordable deals.
  • Andres Torres suffered an Achilles injury, so the Giants need outfield depth and are unlikely to release Aaron Rowand soon. Rowand has a .923 OPS so far including two hits yesterday.


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168 Comments on "Heyman On Hamilton, Young, Felix, Royals"


furioustoaster
4 years 3 months ago

**A rival GM says he’d trade Felix Hernandez to the Yankees for Ivan Nova, Dellin Betances, Manny Banuelos and Jesus Montero if he were running the Mariners.**

Hello stupid quote of the day.

Is there a player in baseball that you couldn’t trade Nova Betances Banuelos and Montero for? A package of prospects like that has NEVER been moved for any one piece.

4 years 3 months ago

I don’t think I’d trade pre-arb Posey for that.

Taylor Hope
4 years 3 months ago

Z would be stupid to move Felix. He’d just be asking to be canned. Felix is about all we Mariner fans have left to cheer for right now.

furioustoaster
4 years 3 months ago

Taylor that’s kind of the point. Having something to “cheer for” is nice… but Felix alone is not going to help the mariners compete.

4 top level prospects will do more to help going forward than Felix alone.

jwsox
4 years 3 months ago

yeah that ichiro guy has nothing left.

Guest
4 years 3 months ago

Still… I think everyone knows the Mariners are the fourth best team in the division, and have virtually no chance at making the playoffs.

Johnny Garcia
4 years 3 months ago

This year. They still have Felix for three more years.

Johnny Garcia
4 years 3 months ago

It would be a different story if Felix was on the last year of his deal.

Taylor Hope
4 years 3 months ago

“about all”. Didn’t feel like bring Ichiro in was necessary.

Johnny Garcia
4 years 3 months ago

It is not Felix alone, though. Pineda and Smoak are already there, Ackley and others are en route and either Rendon or Cole are on the way. Having control of Felix for the next several years is going to be more valuable than the maybe that these prospects will provide.

notsureifsrs
4 years 3 months ago

ah, pineda smoak and ackley are sure things, but montero banuelos betances brackman et al are all long shots! brilliant

notsureifsrs
4 years 3 months ago

including those players, the mariners are unlikely contenders before 2013. and 2013 is assuming they make some good moves in the meantime to make the club better by then. that’s not necessarily a safe assumption. so for 2013, you choose between:

pineda smoak ackley ichiro hernandez and the seattle supporting cast

or

pineda smoak ackley ichiro montero banuelos betances brackman nova gardner and the seattle supporting cast

even modest projections for the latter group exceed felix’s with ease. that’s not even mentioning the difference in value of that crop of young cheap controllable players versus a single pitcher’s ~$75M commitment (and the two utterly wasted seasons in the meantime)

Johnny Garcia
4 years 3 months ago

To clarify, I did not call the Yankees proposed prospects (which only included nova, banuelos, betances, and montero btw) long shots, I said that Felix is more valuable. Neither do I think the M’s prospects are sure things, I only bring up the current prospects because the running assumption seems to be that the cupboard is bare, which is not the case. The modest projections for the four prospects that Seattle would receive in return do not automatically exceed Felix’s value. It’s not unthinkable that a couple could take a step forward and make this a decent return, but that is not a sure thing. It is also possible that they end up as a few mid rotation guys and a DH. Maybe if Montero was actually a catcher…

JTT11
4 years 3 months ago

notsureifsrs – Usually i tend to agree with your analysis but i am left to wonder why in sam hill are you bringing gardner into the discussion? He wasnt mentioned in the piece above but yet in this comment and in your comments below you lump gardner into the trade.

notsureifsrs
4 years 3 months ago

comes from an exchange later in the thread in which gardner and brackman are thrown in and M’s fans still insisted they wouldn’t make the trade

Guest
4 years 3 months ago

**A rival GM says he’d trade Felix Hernandez to the Yankees for Ivan Nova, Dellin Betances, Manny Banuelos and Jesus Montero if he were running the Mariners.**

Enough already Mr. Cashman…… Felix isnt going anywhere

phoenix2042
4 years 3 months ago

So cashman is the rival GM? Oh so it was rival to the Mariners circa 2001 they were talking about? See I interpreted it as neither GM (SEA or NYY), and just some other GM saying what he would have done. Far as I can tell, Cashman never offered this deal, the Mariners never asked for this deal, and Cashman isn’t the kind to trade three A level prospects (Banuelos, Betances and Montero).

notsureifsrs
4 years 3 months ago

“lawnmowers don’t have a rivalry with grass”

mpguy
4 years 3 months ago

Who was the “rival GM” who suggested that trade? Brian Cashman?

furioustoaster
4 years 3 months ago

Why would Cashman want to approach another deal with a GM that pulled a done deal off the table? Seattle is cut off from the Yankees farm system and salary relief IMO.

$1519287
4 years 3 months ago

If the right deal comes up the yanks won’t be petty and miss a chance to make their team better.

woadude
4 years 3 months ago

Was that rival GM by any chance Brian Cashman? Because that is a dead horse that doesn’t deserve to be beaten anymore.

LifeLongYankeeFan
4 years 3 months ago

Yeah well if or when the Mariners ever do shop King Felix if the Yankees offered Ivan Nova, Betances, Banuelos and Montero for King Felix and the Mariners said no then he ain’t getting traded.

Taylor Hope
4 years 3 months ago

We turned down a package centered around Kevin Youkilis. I’m not so sure 4 unproven prospects could do it.

sirvlciv
4 years 3 months ago

Kevin Youkilis is less valuable a trade chip than 3 A list and a B list (Nova) prospects. He’s a 32 year old. If he were the same player but 23, he’d be valuable.

sirvlciv
4 years 3 months ago

Kevin Youkilis is less valuable than 3 A list and a B list prospects.

notsureifsrs
4 years 3 months ago

not to every team. but to the mariners, yes absolutely

LifeLongYankeeFan
4 years 3 months ago

Maybe it wouldn’t but it would be foolish to not even look at or consider the proposed offer.

4 years 3 months ago

Lol. Zduriencik wouldn’t hang up on that offer, *probably*… but there’s no way you’re getting a 24/25yo reigning Cy Young winner on a 4 year deal for MiLB players. Toss in Brackman and Gardner, then you’ve probably got a deal.

Encarnacion's Parrot
4 years 3 months ago

Personally, I still wouldn’t do it.

East Coast Bias
4 years 3 months ago

Personally, I would never offer that much.

Taylor Hope
4 years 3 months ago

“East Coast Bias”. Pretty obvious why you wouldn’t offer that much. We’ll enjoy it when 2 of those 4 prospects fizzle out, 1 is decent, and 1 is great. That’s minor league baseball for you.

notsureifsrs
4 years 3 months ago

someone’s bitter about smoak

Guest
4 years 3 months ago

I dont know, I’m kind of excited about Smoak. After he settled in last year he played pretty well, and he’s off to a strong start this year.

notsureifsrs
4 years 3 months ago

hey, i like smoak. i like top prospects. that’s why i like these proposals for seattle

Taylor Hope
4 years 3 months ago

I love Smoak. I thought the package Texas offered was better than the one New York offered.

East Coast Bias
4 years 3 months ago

I remain unapologetic about my allegiances: to the Yankees, the east coast, and to logic!

Enjoy one of the best pitchers in the game going 10-10 for his tenure in that uniform.

furioustoaster
4 years 3 months ago

The prospects are no more likely to fizzle out than Felix is to keep pitching like this for 10 years.

Encarnacion's Parrot
4 years 3 months ago

Considering Felix has never had serious arm injuries [had a forearm strain once], hasn’t lost velocity, and hasn’t seen his K/BB drop in 5+ seasons, I’d set the over/under for 5+ WAR seasons out of your 10 year thesis at 7.

East Coast Bias
4 years 3 months ago

You’re probably right. However, everyone is prone to injury, especially pitchers and Josh Hamilton. I think it’s too steep a price to pay for one player, especially if he gets injured. If one of the B’s gets injured, you can stomach it. If Felix goes down, you simply cannot.

I don’t mind paying $, but I’m reluctant to give up that high of a price regarding prospects. Watching Tabata rake this season makes me shake my head.

sirvlciv
4 years 3 months ago

A top tier pitcher never having been hurt does not imply that he will not get hurt. See: Brandon Webb.

Encarnacion's Parrot
4 years 3 months ago

That’s no different than saying “the moon didn’t collide with the earth today, but it may tomorrow.” I refuse to despute with straw grasping.

sirvlciv
4 years 3 months ago

Cool story, bro. There’s a LONG list of “great” pitchers whose careers were derailed (either temporarily or permanently) by injuries. Pitchers are risky, and if you have a crappy team, having four commodities is better than having 1.

MaineSox
4 years 3 months ago

As a Red Sox fan I would love it if the Yankees gave Nova, Betances, Banuelos, Montero, Brackman, and Gardner for Hernandez. Just saying.

jwsox
4 years 3 months ago

really? you would love for the yankees to match up felix and cc against the sawx?

MaineSox
4 years 3 months ago

Absolutely. They might have to face Felix 3-5 times a year, which wouldn’t be fun, but they wouldn’t have to face Montero and Gardner 18 times a year. Add to that not having to face Betances, Banuelos, and Brackman (who all have the ability to be good to excellent) a potential combined 10-15 times a year, and yes I would love for them to make that trade.

vtadave
4 years 3 months ago

…and how would you feel about facing Sabatha and Felix 5 times in a seven-game playoff series?

MaineSox
4 years 3 months ago

Not as bad as I would feel about facing Sabathia, Banuelos, and Brackman 7 times and Gardiner and Montero 56 times in a 7 game series.

JacksTigers
4 years 3 months ago

Sigh…

Encarnacion's Parrot
4 years 3 months ago

While I don’t argue that no team should offer that much for one player, Felix is still worth more. He’s, currently, nearly untradeable off talent level alone.

phoenix2042
4 years 3 months ago

Neither would I. Wait you mean you wouldn’t offer it right? Because I would never offer that much for one player, even Pujols with 3 years at that price. I mean conservatively, if you think they are all 2-3 WAR players (which is pretty darn conservative), then that’s 12-18 WAR right there spread around pitching, hitting and defense. Throw in that they’re pre-arb players and… wow that’s value.

East Coast Bias
4 years 3 months ago

You make it sound like he’s coming cheap by saying “on a 4 year deal” when he’s actually getting near market value at 18.5m, 19.5m, and 20m per year starting next season.

jwsox
4 years 3 months ago

considering cliff lee is getting(after this season) 21.5, 25, 25, 25, and 27 and considering felix is younger, has a better career era, better career k/9 a better career whip and only 2.4 less career WAR than lee in 3 less seasons i would say felix is getting a huge bargin.

East Coast Bias
4 years 3 months ago

Ehh, that’s debatable. I don’t know if I’d put around 20m per year as a “huge bargain.” Is he getting what he would have gotten in free agency? No. But it’s not that far from.

jwsox
4 years 3 months ago

market value means what a player would get through Free agency. so again Felix is a bargin

East Coast Bias
4 years 3 months ago

Right. But it isn’t a “huge bargain” as you originally said. That has been my point all along.

vtadave
4 years 3 months ago

Buster Posey and Evan Longoria are “huge bargains”. Felix is slightly below market value. Pretty big difference there.

spokaneman
4 years 3 months ago

Yea that’s just what I’d want, a starter that couldn’t crack 29 other rotations (Nova), an over aged pitcher for his league (Betances), then two decent prospects for the games greatest asset. Guessing the rival GM doesn’t exist, or is someone like Minaya or Drayton Moore to think that’s a good deal. Even if Montero is the next Manny, I wouldn’t trade Felix in his prime for Manny in his prime anyway.

Whatever gets you hits Gayman! (oops, sorry. Had a brief Kobe moment there)

notsureifsrs
4 years 3 months ago

“Even if Montero is the next Manny, I wouldn’t trade Felix in his prime for Manny in his prime anyway.”

well that’s pretty dumb when manny has six years of cheap team control, comes with three top 100 pitching prospects & a 4-6 WAR outfielder with 4 years of cheap team control — and you aren’t going to contend with felix soon anyway

Taylor Hope
4 years 3 months ago

Your comments are getting worse and worse. Not going to contend with felix soon anyway, though they are rebuilding around him and he said he’d like to be a Mariner for his entire career… saying the M’s have no shot to be a contender in 3-5 years? I think they could make a run at 75-80 wins this year if they start to hit with RISP.

furioustoaster
4 years 3 months ago

Yes that is correct. No shot.

Felix has to say he “loves being a mariner”… he’s still under contract.

Taylor Hope
4 years 3 months ago

Just because he has to “love being a Mariner” just as Cliff Lee did-we all know he never wanted to be here, it doesn’t mean he has to throw some comments out of left field (excuse the pun) about wanting to be a Mariner for life and pitch his entire career with one team.

If I recall, 2 years ago the Mariners won 85 or so games. I believe within 4 season the Tigers went from 43 wins to 90 something wins. Baseball is a funny game. M’s are getting some pieces together. I don’t think they’ll win the division anytime soon, but I could definitely see them turning it around.

notsureifsrs
4 years 3 months ago

“Your comments are getting worse and worse.”

SADFACE

“the M’s have no shot to be a contender in 3-5 years?”

3-4, you mean. they only have him through 2014. and i said soon, which means i don’t see them contending before the last couple years, if then

is 1 or 2 years of theoretical contention (you still have a lot of work to do to build around him and make that happen) preferable to loading up now with manny freaking ramirez, three top 100 arms, a 4-6 WAR outfielder, and a cheap back-end pitcher?

i’ll help: no

East Coast Bias
4 years 3 months ago

I love it when you bring the heat! lol

4 years 3 months ago

no need to say “SADFACE” buddy.. a simple :( would have done the job

notsureifsrs
4 years 3 months ago

ORLYFACE

tonyyanksfan
4 years 3 months ago

And is there some reason to believe that in 3-4 years the Mariners can be as good as the Rangers, who still have the best farm system in baseball and perhaps the best team at the major league level too? All with fairly young talent? The wild card doesn’t come out of the West, so you have to win the division. If the Mariners sign Pujols this offseason, then maybe. But what are the chances of that?

MaineSox
4 years 3 months ago

The Rangers don’t have the best farm system in baseball.

tonyyanksfan
4 years 3 months ago

Then I stand corrected, but I still don’t see the Mariners leapfrogging the Rangers or the Angels in the next 3-4 years.

MaineSox
4 years 3 months ago

Me either, I was just correcting that statement.

spokaneman
4 years 3 months ago

IF he is manny, that’s his ceiling, how many guys reach that? I say manny to compare to best case senario, which happens (insert small percentage here) of the time. Either way, what did Manny by himself ever win? all those big banging clubs in Cleveland, where are all their titles? Oh yea, he didn’t win til he had Josh Beckett.

Felix >>>>>> Beckett

notsureifsrs
4 years 3 months ago

– you brought up the manny comparison, not me

– manny won a title before beckett’s arrival in 2006, history major

– no player has ever won anything by himself. that’s precisely the point here: the more high ceiling talent the better

East Coast Bias
4 years 3 months ago

Either our usage of the word “decent” is not agreed upon, or you’re clearly undervaluing the Yankees’ prospects. Then again, you seem to have forgotten how good Manny Ramirez was in his prime…

notsureifsrs
4 years 3 months ago

…or even out of his prime. 6 cheap years of a .415 wOBA? decent

roomwithamoose
4 years 3 months ago

how is Banuelos only a decent prospect a 21 year old who’s been ranked by everyone as top 100, and who has above average secondary pitches decent? So If the prospect isn’t Babe Ruth he must be trash…wow you guys traded Cliff Lee for dogpoop…going by your logic. even then Betances again ranked highly by everyone who takes age into account for ranking…you sir are a scholar

spokaneman
4 years 3 months ago

So to stay short sighted for you in saying we got ‘dogpoop’ for Lee, Smoak only currently has a higher OPS than A-Gone, Morneau, Pujols, etc etc etc. He’s a beast. I know everyone likes to overvalue their own prospects, but talk to me about Montero being better than Smoak in 5 years, because im not on that train. Plus we got a future closer that throws 99 and a couple of toss ins, one might be a 5th starter some day (and is probably ahead of Nova already).

roomwithamoose
4 years 3 months ago

I’m going by your logic. If Banuelos and Montero are mediocre, then your trade does equal out to dogpoop. Or is it because you hate the Yankees to the point you can’t accept anything good coming form them? Plus you’re trashing a starting prospect for a relief prospect…YOU DO REALIZE EVEN A MEDIOCRE STARTER HAS MORE VALUE THAN A GREAT RELIEVER. and the killer B’s are much better than mediocre prospects. SO umm, stop be a homer, homer

MaineSox
4 years 3 months ago

Are you seriously quoting two weeks worth of stats, comparing them to three guys who are known to be having slow starts, and trying to say Smoak is better because he has a higher OPS? Is that what you’re doing? Did you know Yunel Escobar (you know, the guy with a career .769 OPS) has an OPS of 1.200 right now? Dude’s legit right?

4 years 3 months ago

Wait…….how can Joba not be part of the package? This isn’t a reply, but spokeaneman……I’m pretty sure Nova can crack more than the Yankees rotation. You’re essentially saying the Yankees have the worst rotation in baseball with that comment.

But Hernandez is pretty meh. Chris Narveson has gotten more swings and misses this year….

Rangersfan32
4 years 3 months ago

And you’re basically saying one of the top 3 starters in the league is “meh”.

Good job.

East Coast Bias
4 years 3 months ago

He doesn’t mean that. He can’t mean that…

Bluduke28
4 years 3 months ago

lolwut

spokaneman
4 years 3 months ago

I’m saying, which most people are saying (nothing new here) that outside of CC the yanks have a very below average staff, and their 4 and 5 are below replacement. Why do you think Cashman is freaking out over pitching right now? You want to say how bad seattle is, which is fine, but Nova would probably be the 3rd starter in Tacoma if he were in our system. How does that help the big league club short term or long term with 4 guys that will be here long term ahead of him on the depth chart and probably another (Gerrit Cole) on the way?

4 years 3 months ago

I say Joba, Gardner, Montero and one of the pitching prospects for Felix.

FrankTheFunkasaurusRex
4 years 3 months ago

i laughed

Victor Kipp
4 years 3 months ago

You never trade a 25 yr old pitcher with his track record and stuff for a few maybe ball players who have accomplished nothing. I would need Cano than I would think about trading a pitcher who may be dominant for another 10+ seasons.

4 years 3 months ago

Well I get where your coming from, but Felix isn’t the best pitcher to ever live and honestly who knows how he will do playing in the east on a regular basis. So there’s risk for everyone.

Brett Gardner batted .277 last year and .270 the year before, that’s better then half the Mariner team. Besides the added speed and good defense he would bring.

Joba I think is throwing the ball better this season and if he had a change of scenery I think he might even turn it around to be that go to guy.

Montero has been a consistent beast in the triple A minor leagues but the Yanks have him as a catcher. Maybe the Mariners could use him. Look how Austin Jackson has turned out with an opportunity with the Tigers.

Not to mention throwing in one of the best pitching prospect in minor league baseball.

I don’t think its to far fetched.

$3513744
4 years 3 months ago

It’s actually pretty far fetched. Felix doesn’t have to be the greatest pitcher to ever live to command that much in return. And it doesn’t matter if the M’s are going nowhere in the next few years, they’re still trying to build their team around him. The M’s aren’t giving Felix for a package less than that, and the Yankees aren’t going to trade that kind of package for one guy. It’s a deal that doesn’t work for either side no matter how many times this topic has to come up each week.

East Coast Bias
4 years 3 months ago

“The M’s aren’t giving Felix for a package less than that, and the Yankees aren’t going to trade that kind of package for one guy. It’s a deal that doesn’t work for either side no matter how many times this topic has to come up each week.

I want to print this out and frame it on my wall!

harmony55
4 years 3 months ago

Who knows how Brett Gardner and Jesus Montero would fare facing the better pitching of the American League West?

Felix Hernandez dominated AL East teams in seven starts last year (and to a lesser degree in 41 starts lifetime).

MaineSox
4 years 3 months ago

“better pitching of the American League West”

Based on what?

sirvlciv
4 years 3 months ago

Major League Baseball Fantasy Baseball.

Guest
4 years 3 months ago

So is Jon Heyman trying to say the Reds medical team was concerned about a fracture in his shoulder he’d get on a freak play some 4 years after they traded him? Or a cracked rib from crashing into a wall? I mean, I know Hamilton’s immune system is supposedly shot after his drug use, but I’m not sure most of these injuries have anything to do with that. More likely it has to do with his aggressive play and a need for more calcium

I understand the Reds logic in thinking that after his first year back, but Heyman is an idiot for feeling the need to report that

East Coast Bias
4 years 3 months ago

hahaaha I thought the same thing. How do “health reports” say he would injure his shoulder on a headfirst slide a few years later?

Bluduke28
4 years 3 months ago

Apparently they had the technology to suggest his skeletal system consisted of peanut brittle.

4 years 3 months ago

Ever heard of a dexa scan? Did the Reds predict he would specifically fracture his humerus? No. But with knowing what detrimental side effects that come from sustained drug use, added in with him only being healthy enough to play about 90 games that year, they were making an educated general assumption. Hamilton has turned his life around but unfortunately his body will be paying the price for those few years of bad choices. I’m a huge Hamilton fan, I wish him the best in Texas and still kind of wish he was still a Red, but he won’t complete a full season without realizing his body now has limits.

Lunchbox45
4 years 3 months ago

I’d do that offer if I was the Mariners, obviously do it if I was the Yanks.

However one thing to be considered… Would any team be able to, or comfortable to Beat that deal?

notsureifsrs
4 years 3 months ago

the royals could but wouldn’t. same for the braves, i think

4 years 3 months ago

Drabek, D’arnaud, Gose + Lawrie maybe?
I.e. Halladay (with extension) + Marcum (under team control) for Hernandez (with extension).

Lunchbox45
4 years 3 months ago

I think the yankee deal is better than that because at this time Gose is a question mark to even make the majors.

2012 Jays + Felix- Lawrie, Drabek are probably still not a playoff team.

notsureifsrs
4 years 3 months ago

yea but FELIX, DUDE. having him matters more than winning

Lunchbox45
4 years 3 months ago

almost.

HHHDMS
4 years 3 months ago

Im sure that the Yanks have thought of difference combos for Felix…he might love playing for the Mariners but Im sure he’ll get tired of being on a team that does not contend.
Good thing the Giants didnt send Rowand packing yet since Torres is hurt) the Giants do have outfield depth( sort of) with Burrell, DeRosa, Rowand, Nate S. and soon Cody Ross will be back.. I can see Rowand playing elsewhere before this season is done

East Coast Bias
4 years 3 months ago

Man, Hamilton is a beast on the field, but fragile as hell!

4 years 3 months ago

I was thinking the same thing.

TheHotCorner
4 years 3 months ago

His nickname should be Rice Krispies. Snap, crackle, pop.

JacksTigers
4 years 3 months ago

No. That’s Mathew Stafford.

$3513744
4 years 3 months ago

That’s funny that they mentioned that, because if I was the GM, I’d trade Felix for Pujols, Kinsler, Hanley Ramirez, Longoria, Mauer, Heyward, and Sabathia. I’d also live in a house made of gingerbread and candy canes.

4 years 3 months ago

I really hope you’re including Pujols under the assumption that he signs an extension or that is going to be a horrible trade…

TheHotCorner
4 years 3 months ago

I think the rival GM is someone in the AL West that is just tired of facing King Felix.

Guest
4 years 3 months ago

Brett Gardner…. AAAA OF. Why would the Mariners want him?
Jesus Montero… All hit/No field future DH. Maybe if he werent mentioned in EVERY trade rumor he would have a little value, but at this point everyone knows the Yankees dont value him.
So basically this boils down to two #3-#4 SP types for a 24 yr old ace just entering his prime, under contract for 3 more years, with no history of injuries or missing starts.
I think in two years the M’s will be contending with a very good, and very young team…..like the Rays did. This is an organization still recovering from the Bill Bavidiot years….but they are doing it right.

sirvlciv
4 years 3 months ago

I would wager money that you’re wrong.

MaineSox
4 years 3 months ago

So I get that you don’t want them to do the trade, which is a legitimate position, but everything else you said was just plain silly. Gardner put up over 5 WAR last year and even assuming regression is a pretty easy 4 WAR player going forward. Montero even as a DH is an easy 3.5 WAR. Banuelos has drawn comparisons to none other than King Felix (fair or not) and projects as a #1 on most teams, and a very good #2 on the others.

Bluduke28
4 years 3 months ago

“Montero even as a DH is an easy 3.5 WAR.”

EASY 3.5? Gotta put up some moderately sexy numbers at DH for 3.5 WAR and Montero, though he’s smacked around MiLB pitchers, is definitely no sure thing.

notsureifsrs
4 years 3 months ago

a .375ish wOBA will do it. if he spends a few games behind the plate, it’s much easier

it’d be surprising if montero posted .375 right out of the gate, sure. but his projections have that kind of production as a low

MaineSox
4 years 3 months ago

True nobody is a sure thing until they actually do it, but unless Montero is a complete bust 3.5 WAR should be no problem for him. Maybe not year one, but certainly once he has some experience behind him.

Point of reference: Ortiz posted 3.3 WAR in what was a good-not great year last year.

Bluduke28
4 years 3 months ago

Yeah I was going to reference Ortiz in the former post, but in more of a “Montero can only hope to be able to put up Ortiz’s numbers” light. Regardless, the kid should mash, though he probably won’t have a huge leash if he’s playing for NYY and happens to not be catching. It’s always sad to see a top prospect fail. Even as a Sox fan, I hope he can produce that 3.5 WAR.

MSUcorner
4 years 3 months ago

“Montero even as a DH is an easy 3.5 WAR.”

Very, very, very bold statement considering the guy has never played in the bigs.

MaineSox
4 years 3 months ago

Already had that conversation with Bluduke28, look like three comments above you.

4 years 3 months ago

You sir are a retard. And that’s saying it nicely. You obviously don’t follow any other team other than your precious M’s.

Gardner is like Carl Crawford minus the power and his salary.
I’m also glad you can see the future by saying Montero is a future DH. I guess you would of said the same about Piazza and Posada.
Last thing, the #3-#4 SP types are actually projected to be #2-#3 AT LEAST.

If by under contract for 4 years you mean under contract of 18+ mil a year, sure. I would continue but I feel like I made my point

spokaneman
4 years 3 months ago

That’s cute, Pineda is projected as a #2 and he’s light years ahead of any of the yankee pitching prospects. They are #3-4s

Guest
4 years 3 months ago

Let it go Spokaneman…there is no reasoning with Wankee fans……its interesting that everyone who plays for the Yankees is better than every player on every team….but they are constantly trying to trade these guys!
I mean, they are trying to trade three Felix Herndazez for the King….but they sign carlos Silva instead of promoting one of these guys.

MB923
4 years 3 months ago

Gardner, high OBP and one of the best defensive OFers in the game (not off to a great start this year, but many great players aren’t, and many mediocre players are, so we shall see)

Montero, who cares if he’s all DH. The Mariners would take ANY player with a great offense.

However I will agree and say trading Felix would be a mistake for the M’s

Guest
4 years 3 months ago

Brett Gardner hit .277 in that Yankee lineup with no power whatsoever…..where does he fit in in Seattle?

Montero, again cant field, hes a one trick pony who couldnt stick with the Yankees out of ST, and who has been mentioned in EVERY trade rumor.

And the two pitchers are soooooo imposing that the Yankees signed Carlos Silva and are looking for any pitching possible…….

But you Yankee fans keep telling us how incredible your prospects are, someone will bite!

MaineSox
4 years 3 months ago

I love when people call me “you Yankee fans” (did you not see my name?) but anyway…

“where does he fit in in Seattle?” Batting lead off. Hitting isn’t the only way to get on base, he had an OBP of .383 last year, he steals bases like crazy and plays outstanding defense.

Montero is mentioned in every trade rumor because he is so good and everyone wants him. He didn’t stick with the Yankees because he is really young and they have Martin so there’s no reason to rush him. He may not be able to stick at catcher but he could always be tried in LF or 1B before he is moved to DH. Then even if he is moved to DH he could come up tomorrow and be the best hitter in the Mariners lineup.

Banuelos isn’t in the Yankees lineup because he just turned 20 and has only thrown 15 innings above A ball, not because he isn’t good.

deliciouspie
4 years 3 months ago

‘”where does he fit in in Seattle?” Batting lead off. Hitting isn’t the only way to get on base, he had an OBP of .383 last year, he steals bases like crazy and plays outstanding defense.’

Ever heard of this guy named Ichiro? Arguably the best leadoff man in the game? Maybe you should learn something about those team out there on the other coast before telling everybody what they should do.

MaineSox
4 years 3 months ago

Ichiro is great, I know, but he had an OBP 25 points lower than Gardiner last year, and has had an OBP as high as Gardiner’s .383 once in the last three years. I’m not trying to imply that Gardiner is a better player than Ichiro but it is not unreasonable to think that Gardiner could lead off with Ichiro batting second or vice versa. Anyway, why would it be a bad thing to have two high OBP guys on your team?

cmock
4 years 3 months ago

Perhaps they signed Silva because Banuelos and Betances aren’t ready for the Bigs yet, which also might explain why they didn’t make the opening day roster… just a thought.

spokaneman
4 years 3 months ago

Gardner also did this not only in that lineup, but playing half his games in a park that makes the Kingdome laugh and he still has zero power. Thats exactly what the mariners need, another slap hitter to clog up the lineup.

JTT11
4 years 3 months ago

clog up what line up? they were in the basement last season in all offensive categories. besides Ich, the M’s struggle to get guys on base.

Guest
4 years 3 months ago

Oh, and Gardner’s two previous seasons…. 0.6 WAR, and 1.6 WAR….so that regression thing is “probably” a little lower than 4.0….. again, where does he fit in with Seattle?
I like Montero….but I’m not trading one of the three best pitchers in baseball for a guy that has no position, a LF who is filler, a AAA pitcher who is the same age as Felix, who cant get out ML hitters, and a couple unproven guys who may or may not pan out.
Seriously, get real.
If Felix was 18 months from FA, and the M’s are still struggling…I’d consider a package like this….but with three years and a promising rebuild underway….this makes no sense at all.

furioustoaster
4 years 3 months ago

I’m going to teach you some math, so you calm down.

In 2009, Brett Gardner accumulated 1.6 WAR. (Fangraphs has him at 2.1 but, we’ll use your number)
In 2009, Brett Gardner had 284 plate appearances.
If he had played full time that season, he would have had double the plate appearances.
(284 * 2) = 568
With 568 plate appearances (he had 569 in 2010 and was injured), he would project to 3.2 WAR that season. Not bad for your first full year in the majors.
He then followed that with a 4.5 WAR season in which he missed games due to a wrist injury.
You are also looking at bWAR, which I feel highly underrates defensive contribution.

Gardner is awesome.

MaineSox
4 years 3 months ago

According to fangraphs Gardner’s WAR the previos 2 years were 1.1 and 2.1 and neither one was a full season.

Guest
4 years 3 months ago

Good lord you Wankee fans are pathetic. “Calm down”? I’m fine buddy, I just find you guys comical. Every Yankee fan I’ve EVER met is the exact same….same sense of entitlement….same thought pattern that every corpse in your system would be a star on every other team.
Please keep Brett Gardner…….and good luck with Carlos Silva! He can be your closer…..he closed down the clubhouse buffet every night in Seattle!

JacksTigers
4 years 3 months ago

You use “…” more than I do…. < see what I did there at the end…. < I did it again!

Guest
4 years 3 months ago

so whats your point? Who cares dude!

sirvlciv
4 years 3 months ago

Do you think you’re being creative by saying “Wankee”?

Guest
4 years 3 months ago

Honestly, its just how I’ve come to know the most obnoxious fans in baseball.

furioustoaster
4 years 3 months ago

Sorry, but nothing about my post has to do with being a Yankee fan. It’s simple math. If he accumulates 2 WAR in half a season, how many does he accumulate in a full season?

You can’t seperate your Yankee hate from you opinion, it’s sad.

Guest
4 years 3 months ago

I can completely separate the two….honestly I don’t hate Yankee fans, or Red Sox fans….you guys just have an annoying distortion of reality….its like you need an intervention.

I’m sorry, I think WAR is a poor indicator of an individuals talent. I dont dislike the stat geeks or traditional scouting…..I think there just needs to be some common ground between the two sides to truly gauge a players worth.

Having said that…I find it friggin comical that one of you guys tried to favorably compare Gardner to Carl Crawford.

furioustoaster
4 years 3 months ago

You don’t think WAR is a good indicator of talent? YOU brought up WAR to discount Gardners talent…

It’s not comical to compare Gardner to Crawford. It’s comical to pay Crawford over $20mil/season, or to assume Gardner couldn’t reach Crawford’s mediocre level of power at some point in his career. They already steal bases at exactly the same success rate, and Gardner displays much better plate discipline.

I think you just hate the yankees. It’s pretty obvious by reading all of your posts, actually.

Guest
4 years 3 months ago

I didnt bring up WAR, someone else did and I posted Gardners WAR from Baseball Reference.
I agree its stupid to pay Crawford $20mil+ a season….I’m not arguing that point….what I am arguing is the comment that Gardner is as good/better than Crawford. Gardner is less than two years younger and has far less MLB experience…..and those power numbers? Gardner managed 5 HR in a park, and in a lineup, where my Grandmother could probably hit 25+.
Come talk to me when Gardner has a few more full seasons under his belt, I’m less than impressed to this point.
Again, I dont hate the Yankees…I’m just tired of the Yankee fans attitude around here. Why would the Yankees trade with anyone? Everyone in their system is better than any player on any other team!

Guest
4 years 3 months ago

I used baseball reference:
link to baseball-reference.com

“If he had played full time that season, he would have had double the plate appearances.
(284 * 2) = 568
With 568 plate appearances (he had 569 in 2010 and was injured), he would project to 3.2 WAR that season. Not bad for your first full year in the majors.”

If only it worked this way!

Guest
4 years 3 months ago

“”where does he fit in in Seattle?” Batting lead off. Hitting isn’t the only way to get on base, he had an OBP of .383 last year, he steals bases like crazy and plays outstanding defense.”

Except that lousy Ichiro guy is hitting leadoff…. I mean if it were Figgins, I might agree…..but c’mon man

cmock
4 years 3 months ago

You wouldn’t want two guys who can get on base and manufacture runs? Doesn’t seem like a bad idea to me and I’m not even a yankee fan.

notsureifsrs
4 years 3 months ago

yea that would suck if they ended up with more than one good hitter. forget that

MaineSox
4 years 3 months ago

So bat one of them second, that way Montero can have two people to knock in.

deliciouspie
4 years 3 months ago

Chone Figgins, anyone?

The Mariners have two guys who could lead off for any team in the majors, and Dustin Ackley looks to have a skillset that is suited for batting first as well, at least for his first couple years in the big leagues (though there’s a good chance he develops power down the road.)

Bottom line, they do not need Gardner nearly as much as they need a guy with more power, preferably someone who can play catcher or third base (and Montero is not a catcher). Remember, the Mariners preferred Justin Smoak to Montero, as they should have since Smoak is a better all-around hitter and can play good defense at first, and as a switch-hitter his numbers will be less affected by the dimensions of Safeco Field.

Felix is the best pitcher in baseball, non-Halladay division (and Doc isn’t getting any younger). No team is going to give that up for a redundant outfielder, a future DH who doesn’t fit the park, and a couple pitchers who’s upsides are nowhere near what Felix is right now, especially when that pitcher has expressed a desire to remain with the team for the rest of his career. Don’t forget that prospects are risky, and pitching prospects doubly so. I wouldn’t be surprised if neither Banuelos nor Betances has a meaningful career as a big league starter. Of course, I wouldn’t be particularly surprised if they both end up as ace types (though neither will ever be as good as the once-in-a-generation talent that is Felix), but the point stands that pitching prospects, even top ones, fail incredibly often.

Maybe if the Yankees threw in Gary Sanchez and Andrew Brackman on top of that the Mariners would consider it, but even then it’s doubtful. The Mariners have a legitimate, proven ace to build around, and a lot of good young players coming up to make a playoff run in a year or two.

Of course, if the Mariners aren’t much closer to contending when Felix has a year or so left on his contract, then things change. But why give up one of the game’s most valuable assets for a bunch of mediocre and/or unproven players?

JTT11
4 years 3 months ago

actually the M’s didnt prefer Smoak to Montero. it was actually the opposite. The reason the montero and 2b prospect for lee didnt go thru was the 2b didnt pass his physical. The M’s resorted to the texas trade (which included 3 other more than decent prospects) when the yankees wouldnt add a tier 1 or 2 pitching prospect in place of the 2b.

MaineSox
4 years 3 months ago

The same Chone Figgins who had a .340 OBP last year? The same one who has a .326 wOBA over the last three years? That Chone Figgins? No he couldn’t lead of for any team in the majors, some maybe, but certainly not any.

Guest
4 years 3 months ago

I used Baseball Reference for the WAR…probably should have used Fangraphs.
cmock…..no, the Mariners have enough slap hitters, they need some guys with at least gap power.

MaineSox
4 years 3 months ago

Like Montero?

4 years 3 months ago

Nah, hes talking about players like Smoak

Guest
4 years 3 months ago

Yeah, because Smoak is obviously a washout… they should just release him already…..

East Coast Bias
4 years 3 months ago

Ugh… I wish I had gotten to you sooner. It’s pointless arguing with this guy. He responds to everything with an opposite extreme hyperbole. But his winning quality is the inability to differentiate between fact and opinion.

This coming from wasted hours of personal experience…

cmock
4 years 3 months ago

Gardner is light years better than Langerhans, whom I’m assuming he we be replacing in that lineup were this trade, which isn’t going to happen, happen.

Guest
4 years 3 months ago

Yeah, except for that crappy Franklin Gutierrez fellow….