Blue Jays, Mariners Talked Pineda For Lawrie Swap

Alex Anthopoulos hinted last night that some young Blue Jays drew trade interest this offseason, and Jeff Blair of the Globe and Mail has the details on some talks that never materialized. The Blue Jays and Mariners discussed Michael Pineda, but the Blue Jays balked when the Mariners wanted Brett Lawrie in return for the right-hander, according to Blair's sources.

Instead, the Yankees obtained Pineda for Jesus Montero last month and the Blue Jays held onto Lawrie. The 22-year-old British Columbia native made his MLB debut in 2011, posting a .293/.373/.580 line in 171 plate appearances. Mariners GM Jack Zduriencik selected Lawrie in the first round of the 2008 draft when he was Milwaukee's scouting director. Meanwhile, Pineda posted a 3.74 ERA with 9.1 K/9 and 2.9 BB/9 in 171 innings as a rookie last year.


327 Responses to Blue Jays, Mariners Talked Pineda For Lawrie Swap Leave a Reply

  1. MB923 3 years ago

    Interesting.

  2.   Maybe that is why the blue jays did not get a young stud pitcher.  Same reason they didn’t get Gio.  You must trade something of value to get value back. 

    • Hits & Gigs 3 years ago

      Unless you trade with the Cardinals

      • stl_cards16 3 years ago

        One of those silly teams that are always trying to compete instead of always trading for “potential”  Yep, you showed us!

        • Hits & Gigs 3 years ago

          I sure did

          • stl_cards16 3 years ago

            Even taking out the “renals” that helped the Cardinals win a World Series the Cardinals still didn’t do too bad in that trade.

            4 years of Rzep + 2 supplemental picks
                          for
            3 years of Colby + 6 of P.J. Walters

            I was not a fan of the trade at first and I actually like Rasmus.  But to act like this trade is that lopsided is just being an AA fan boy.

          • Hits & Gigs 3 years ago

            For the sake of the trade I hope that Zep does become a great player and not just a LOOGY like he appears to be right now. The trade is lopsided in my opinion because the Blue Jays acquired a high-ceiling player in exchange for players who most likely wouldn’t amount to much in the AL East. I’ll take 3 years of Rasmus over 4 years of Zep (and the picks) every time

          • chico65 3 years ago

            Why are you bringing kidneys into it?

          • Lucas Kschischang 3 years ago

            Well the way you describe it, it is lopsided.
            Rzep is NOT that good; just wait till he gets figured out by the hitters in the NL… (hahahahahaha)

            Nevermind, Rzep will win a few Cy Youngs, if not, a Rolaids Relief award.

      • damn that’s dirty ;D

      • Cardinals are only interested in winning Championships???

      • This obviously made zero sense.  If you really look at the big picture.  The Cardinals traded Rasmus for a World Series ring.  I make that trade any day of the week.  You have to make deals when you think there is a chance to win a WS.  The opportunity doesn’t come around a lot, “unless your the Cardinals”.

    • Tony Matias 3 years ago

      Ya… this may come back to bite them.

    • TheodoreRoosevelt 3 years ago

      Who is to say the Jays didn’t offer value? 

    • Lawrie is worth alot more than Montero. He plays a premium (really 2 premium) position and has had more success in the majors so far.

      • Yankees420 3 years ago

        What other premium position does Lawrie play?  Weren’t there questions about him sticking at 3B?  

  3. my guess is that lawrie is the only untouchable on the jays roster. they’ve been waiting for a canadian star for a long time. more lawrie jerseys have been sold in the past 12 months than any others. trade him and the fans would lose it…

    • MB923 3 years ago

      “more lawrie jerseys have been sold in the past 12 months than any others.”

      Are you sure of that? He did not even debut until August. I doubt they were making Brett Lawrie jerseys over 5 months ago . If you would have said the last 5 months I would have believed it more, but I just couldn’t picture Lawrie jerseys outselling Bautista jerseys the past year.

      • there were lawrie jerseys in the stands before he even made it to the bigs…i don’t know the exact numbers, but i can tell you you see more lawrie jerseys around than bautista ones (although that’s a shame)

        • $5427573 3 years ago

          Maybe next year, but this year there were definitely way more Bautista jerseys

        • MB923 3 years ago

          lol you’re really going by what you saw in the stands though?

          I had no idea they made major league jerseys for players who have never put on a major league uniform.

      • Yeah that guy definitely doesn’t actually know anything about Jersey sales. This was definitely completely made up, and most probably wrong.

    • Vmmercan 3 years ago

      Aren’t jersey sales split between all MLB teams anyway?

      • i wasn’t referring to the money they make because of it…i’m only saying that after only 150 MLB at bats, he’s already the fan favourite

    • TheodoreRoosevelt 3 years ago

      AA is too into value to deem any player “untouchable”. 

      Lawrie may actually be one of the most likely players to be traded befpre long. A long-term move to 3B might be in Bautista’s best interests considering his age, and if the Jays were to acquire or promote an outfielder (Marisnick? Gose?), then Lawrie would be a tremendous chip to deal with. He is the kind of player who can get you that ace to put you over the top. 

      • if the right trade comes up, i agree, any player should be moved if it makes the team better, but i doubt he’s “one of the most likely players to be traded”.

      • toddcoffeytime 3 years ago

        He is the kind of guy who gets you Shaun Marcum, so really more of a solid 2/3 pitcher than an ace.

        • TheodoreRoosevelt 3 years ago

          He was worth a Shaun Marcum in December of 2010, which in itself was a hell of a lot (a 20 year old prospect with baggage for a team’s no.1 starter in the bigs). You’d be hard-pressed to find anybody who thinks his value hasn’t considerably increased since then. 

          Lawrie on his own probably won’t be enough to get an ace, but he is likely where the conversation would start in the majority of cases. Considering where the Jays’ strengths are, it would be a huge mistake not to put him in play if necessary.

          • they are NOT moving him. He is their best hitting “prospect” that they are building around for years to come.

          • toddcoffeytime 3 years ago

            Yeah his value is definitely higher, I’m just making a point that he isn’t going to get you an absolute frontline starter without something else to sweeten the deal likely.

        • Shifty1 3 years ago

          He was the kind of guy that would get you a Marcum with 2years of control LAST YEAR out of double-A… this year he gets you Pineda with 5 years of major league control.  Cant you read?? 

          • Lawrie is worth more than Montero. Hence AA balked at including him for Pineda. They have enough assets that they dont need to discuss their most ready Major League bat to improve in other areas.

      • ratmoss 3 years ago

        Lawrie moves to 2B if and when Bautista goes to 3rd.

        • TheodoreRoosevelt 3 years ago

          Lawrie isn’t well-regarded as a 2B; one would think a move to LF would be more likely if Lawrie had to switch positions (and the Jays have a logjam there which emphasises Lawrie’s value as a trade chip). 

          • RobA 3 years ago

            Why the talk of moving him at all? If he can hack it at 3B, which he clearly can, then his bat is more valuable there thena  corner OF. And especially so on a team with a logjam of OF prospects, but a dearth of IF prospects.

            While he won’t be a GG, Lawrie looks liek he’ll actually be above average at 3B. So why would we move him?

          • TheodoreRoosevelt 3 years ago

            If you read the conversation in full you’ll see why. It is not about him moving positions, it is about where the Jays are strong.

            To cut a long story short: the Jays have a couple of top outfield prospects up and coming. They could take Bautista’s position; Bautista could take Lawrie’s position; and Lawrie could be used as prime trade bait for an ace. 

          • why wouldnt you just trade bautista for an ace and have a peaking lawrie when you’re ready to contend rather than a declining bautista?

          • TheodoreRoosevelt 3 years ago

            Because Bautista is more versatile in the field and his bat is near impossible to replace. That, plus other teams would want Lawrie for the exact reasons listed above (youth, control, less money).

            That’s not to say that trading Bautista wouldn’t be the right move to make at some point. If it makes the team stronger it must be considered.

          • I have no idea where you are getting these crazy ideas, Lawrie is worth more than Bautista to some Blue Jays fans, myself included. We are not trading him. If anthing, we trade Lind, Arencibia or Johnson, but never Lawrie.

      • Bautista is a plus defender in RF. No reason to move him. and Lawrie is as untouchable as there is in any organization.

        • TheodoreRoosevelt 3 years ago

          Bautista is an average RF and will only decline in his 30s; there is more value in him playing at 3B. 
          Lawrie is not untouchable. A deal for a player like King Felix would *start* with Lawrie’s name. It’s the Felixes of this world who are the closest thing to being untouchables. 

          • Steve Noonan 3 years ago

            Bautista an average RF? Are you kidding me? He is easily one of the best right fielders in the league.

            And yes, Lawrie is the second most untouchable player on the Jays next to Bautista. Trust me, the fans in Toronto would RIOT if he was traded. He is neck and neck with Bautista as the most popular Jay.

            You must not be from Toronto because you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about.

            Edit: Also to add to that the Jays were annoyed when they had to put Bautista at third. He’s great at the position but it’s not where they wanted him at all. He is a right fielder through and through. Once Lawrie came up both of those positions were solidified.

          • Shifty1 3 years ago

            You are right, Bautista is not average in RF… all of the #s (outside of assists) show that he is a below average RF.  I am a big Bautista fan btw

          • TheodoreRoosevelt 3 years ago

            “You must not be from Toronto because you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about.”

            You’re not doing your fine city any favours. 

          • crashcameron 3 years ago

            OK, you’re done

  4. $3513744 3 years ago

    Curious what they were expecting to be able to trade to get him.

  5. they must have really thought pineda’s first half was a fluke to think about trading for lawrie.  don’t get me wrong, brett is an above average hitter, but to trade a number 2 thats under contract control for marginal offense is crazy.  im sure mariners fans are greatful they pulled the trigger on jesus rather then lawrie.

    • $5427573 3 years ago

      Marginal offense?   The guy looks like he’s gonna go 30/100/20.  

      • Stuart Brown 3 years ago

        With a nice amount of doubles and triples in there as well. All while playing plus defense.

      • I would actually increase the SB’s to 30+. He has speed that comes out of no where. Routine ground balls to short are being beat out on occasion.

      • I would actually increase the SB’s to 30+. He has speed that comes out of no where. Routine ground balls to short are being beat out on occasion.

    • plain_g 3 years ago

      lawrie’s bat is not far off montero and lawrie actually provides defensive value, while montero will become a dh soon.

      • MarinersFan24 3 years ago

        I really wish people would stop saying Montero will become a DH soon as if its a proven fact. None of you know that for sure. The Yankees believed he could catch and the Mariners traded for him with the belief that he can catch. Quit repeating whatever the media tells you.

        • renegadeisback 3 years ago

          I love how the team that has him is the only team in baseball that actually believes he can catch.

        • notsureifsrs 3 years ago

          the yankees did not believe he could catch. they kept the myth of that entirely theoretical possibility alive to maximize his trade value

          • Haha yeah.  If they actually thought he could catch, with a bat like that, there’s no WAY they would have traded him for Pineda

      • Bleed_Orange 3 years ago

        Wasnt the whole idea of Montero becoming a DH based on the fact that Tex as at 1st in the Yankees lineup?  Now if Montero can’t stay at catcher he could always move to 1st in Seattle or as I have heard before, be tried out as a corner out fielder.  The notion of not having a glove hehind the plate sure, but the notion of the guy providing zero defensive abilities at the age of 22 is just silly.

        • notsureifsrs 3 years ago

          smoak is at first and even if montero played there he would be a DH playing first base (i.e. he’s expected to be a defensive liability anywhere he goes)

          adam dunn was technically a 1B and OF at certain times in his career, but really he was always a DH playing the field

          • Bleed_Orange 3 years ago

            I’m not sold on smoak I’m not sure he will be able to hit in that park (and Montero might not be able to either).  But to compare a 22 year old with less than 100 games to Adam Dunn makes little sense, he can still develop a glove. 

          • notsureifsrs 3 years ago

            i didn’t compare the players; dunn is just the perfect illustration of the point i was making

            few humans are capable of failing as badly in the field as adam dunn has, but you can’t find many (if any) scouts that expect montero to provide defensive value at any position

            that doesn’t mean he’ll be worthless — prince fielder is a DH playing 1B and he’s worked out ok so far — it just means there’s no reason to move a competent player like smoak off of first for him

          • MaineSox 3 years ago

             I bet I could fail as badly as Dunn at fielding.  Just saying.

        • JaysNesan 3 years ago

          I think Montero is far less worth than Lawrie. Montero is being overated because he was under Yabkees system. What happened to Beltre in Seatle will happen to Monero. He has to get 25+ HRs, 300 avg and good defence to proof that the Pineda trade  was a good trade in Seatle’s point of view. I think, he will be a dissapointment to Seatle’s fans.

          • RobA 3 years ago

            Yeah, Yanks prospects are always thought to be more valuable then they are. Banuelas as a top 10 prospect right now? That is laughable.

          • notsureifsrs 3 years ago

            against my better judgement, on this one i think i’m gonna trust the people who know the kid’s name

          • RobA 3 years ago

            lol ad hominem attacks, nice :) …..just too lazy to look it up. Doesn’t change the fact that his actual pitching stats are not really that good. Certainly not worthy of the hype he gets.

          • notsureifsrs 3 years ago

            i’m a big numbers guy, but the value of a prospect is not determined solely by his minor league stats page

          • MB923 3 years ago

            I think he’s Top 20 or Top 25, not Top 10. If it’s laughable, you should laugh then at Baseball America or Baseball Prospectus who come out with these rankings.

          • RobA 3 years ago

            Well, that’s what I am laughing at. The bias towards Yankee prospects. My point is, a guy who hasn’t put up elite numbers above A+ doesn’t really deserve that kind of hype.

          • MB923 3 years ago

            These are guys from the entire country. They have no biasness towards the Yankees at all. I believe Dave Cameron previously wrote for Baseball Prospectus and he hates the Yankees with a passion.

        • will he be better at 1st than smoak defensively?  unlikely.  if he cant catch, he’s a dh in seattle just as much as he was in NY

    • marginal offense? .580 slugging last year…. 8 doubles, 4 triples, 9 hr and 7 SB in 150 ABs….that’s after slugging .661 in AAA

      • Haewon Kim 3 years ago

        Inflated a lil by the dome.

        • might as well keep him hitting there then…..and the homers i recall were all bombs…out anywhere

        • Dave2727 3 years ago

          and the guy in the white jacket telling him what pitches are coming.

          • Encarnacion's Parrot 3 years ago

            I just wish he told JP Arencibia what pitches were coming.

          • chico65 3 years ago

            So, are you George Custer reincarnate, indestructible until wounded knee?

          • Encarnacion's Parrot 3 years ago

            I actually used to be a pet detective..

        • renegadeisback 3 years ago

          Is he not going to continue to play at the dome, or?

        • Shifty1 3 years ago

          lol, wait till Pineda’s # get inflated by the popup HR’s into the RF bleachers at Yankee stadium.
          I am sure all the doubles and triples that Lawrie had would have been singles elsewhere.

        • Motor_City_Bombshell 3 years ago

          This argument can be made for Pineda as well.

        • Motor_City_Bombshell 3 years ago

          This argument can be made for Pineda as well.

        • Lucas Kschischang 3 years ago

          Because having fences closer to the basepaths makes it easier to leg out triples.

          Last time I checked a throw from 420 ft is further than one from 375.

    • $5427573 3 years ago

      Marginal offense?   The guy looks like he’s gonna go 30/100/40 as well as .580 slugging last year…. 8 doubles, 4 triples, 9 hr and 7 SB in 150 ABs

      Granted, we will have to see if he’ll be exposed or not next year, but it’s the same deal with Montero, but Montero doesn’t have someone like Bautista to “protect” him.

      • lawrie hit for one month, just like montero, but montero for now plays a position seattle needs.  where would figgins play in this trade?  there are stud september call ups every year.  you remember chris davis…he hit bombs all the time in his first 2 month call up at 3b and look where he is now.

    • Ya because dh’s are so hard to come by. I would way rather have Lawrie sitting at third instead if Montero sitting on the bench.

    • grant77 3 years ago

      It’s highly doubtful the Mariners ever had a chance to ‘pull the trigger’ on a Lawrie deal unless they included Felix.

      • notsureifsrs 3 years ago

        take this hat and go sit in the corner

      • Shifty1 3 years ago

        wow…. lol
        Lawrie + Alvarez + d’Arnaud and MAYBE Jack Z agrees to discuss Felix.

        • definitely would take more than lawrie for felix. but lawrie is cheap and under control, and relatively expensive, so no chance D’arnaud would be in there. 2 highly rated prospects at premium positions? in your dreams.

        • definitely would take more than lawrie for felix. but lawrie is cheap and under control, and relatively expensive, so no chance D’arnaud would be in there. 2 highly rated prospects at premium positions? in your dreams.

    • Shifty1 3 years ago

      hahaha, seriously??  Marginal offense??  Guessing you have no clue who Lawrie is or have never watched him swing a bat?   The M’s would have been much better off with Lawrie who can at least play defense as opposed to the DH bound Montero… and I think think Jesus is a helluva a hitting prospect (as is Lawrie for sure).   Was it the small sample .950 OPS, 7 sb that turned you off?? haha

      • lawrie is not proven. he came up hit for one month and then was just average in september.  a lot of callups mash in the first month and then take awhile to hit once the league figures them out (if at all).  brett pill hit 300 and slugged 560 in one month…is he a proven legit future all-star. no. montero and lawrie are on the same level of unsureness, but montero plays a position the mariners don’t have.

        • RobA 3 years ago

          Also, if you are a believer in the “it factor” for ball players, that intangible thing that you can’t describe, but you know if when you see it…..then you have to place a value on Lawrie above and beyond jsut what the stat sheet says. If he doesn’t have it, then nobody has it. That’s clear to anyone who’s watched the kid play baseball.

    • RobA 3 years ago

      ok, SMALL sample size, yes. Certainly not INSIGNIFICANT sample size. 43 games is not peanuts. And combined with his ridiculous year in AAA, the kid is clearly a winner.

      I don’t care who you are, if you play 43 games at a full season pace of 9.7 WAR (150 game assumption)…and at the age of 21….then you are a special player. Wouldn’t even think about trading Lawrie for Pineda.

    • mozelpuffski 3 years ago

      ya ok: stud 3b potential all star from the left coast vs. watching chone figgins… and i wil replay lawrie taking pineda deep in my mind. what happened was: Z – shoot jays screwed us for morrow we will get them back! Hey AA we got something special but we want lawrie – AA no you can keep felix – no we meant pineda! – aa pauses; is this a joke? i fail to see the punchline…

  6. UltimateYankeeFan 3 years ago

    So as a Yankees fan I guess I should thank the Jays management for Pineda.

    • rockfordone 3 years ago

      yes – the Yanks will be very pleased with him. Jays GM questionable at best.

      • MB923 3 years ago

        Maybe it’s a questionable move, but I don’t call him a questionable GM.

      • Guest 3 years ago

        What?? Anthopoulos has only made one bad decision that I can think of since he was promoted to GM – Napoli for Frank Francisco (which I called a bad move as soon as it happened; I’m not just saying it in hindsight). And it is *far* outweighed by a lot of really good moves that he’s already made in his short time as Toronto’s GM.

        I’m not a Jays fan. In fact, I dislike them. But anyone who says that Anthopoulos is a “questionable GM at best” is either really uninformed, misinformed, or has a bias that they can’t see past.

        • OKGOJAYS85 3 years ago

          Napoli would not have gotten the same playing time in Toronto as the 2nd/3rd catcher, 2nd/3rd 1B, and 2nd/3rd DH. Whereas at least Toronto got a reliever that could be trotted out to pitch (albeit not very well). Napoli was never part of the Jays plans last season. In hindsight Texas did win the trade but they also took a bigger risk as well.

      • renegadeisback 3 years ago

        Questionable GM? Every Yankees fan that owns half a brain would trade Cashman for AA in a heartbeat.

        • $3513744 3 years ago

          I doubt all three of them would make that move.

      • Lol, you’re insane. Because he didn’t trade away one of the best Canadian players to ever where a Jays jersey for a pitching prospect; you think he’s questionable? Really. 

        • xthetouristx 3 years ago

          One of the best Canadian players ever–who has played about 25% of one season, might I add–for a pitching prospect–who has pitched a full season.

          One of the funniest things I’ve read in awhile.  Thank you.

          • Lucas Kschischang 3 years ago

             Oh how irony is sweet.

        • xthetouristx 3 years ago

          One of the best Canadian players ever–who has played about 25% of one season, might I add–for a pitching prospect–who has pitched a full season.

          One of the funniest things I’ve read in awhile.  Thank you.

      • RobA 3 years ago

        Pineda has two splits that should make any Yanks fan very uncomfortable:

        1)1st half ERA – 3.03
        2nd half ERA – 5.07

        2) Home ERA – 2.93
        Away ERA – 4.40

        These suggest two things: One, hitters adjusted to him the more they saw him. Two, outside of the freidnly confines of Safeco, he didn’t do nearly as well.

        Plus, he pitched in the AL West.

        I would be very, very nervous about him coming a) to the AL East in general and b) coming from an extreme pitchers park to an extreme hitters park.

        I think the Yanks have the biggest potential to lose this trade big time.

        • MB923 3 years ago

          King Felix in his first full season as a starter

          2006

          Home ERA- 3.47
          Road ERA- 5.47

        • MB923 3 years ago

          You also do realize that Safeco is going to affect Montero’s hitting stats don’t you? He went from a possible 30 HR/100 RBI guy to a 15-20 HR/75-80 RBI guy

          • notsureifsrs 3 years ago

            doubt it will have that much impact. montero is the furthest thing from a pull hitter and it’s safeco’s left field dimensions that kill right-handed power

          • MB923 3 years ago

            I don’t have time to look since I am about to head home from work, but to give a quick heads up when I get back, what’s the best site, if there is one, to tell some kind of percentage of which part of the field a batter hits to? Ex. 40% LF, 20% CF, 40% RF 

          • notsureifsrs 3 years ago

            i don’t remember any of them breaking down the percentages for you, but b-ref’s splits pages have the raw data and mlbcom has spray charts. hittrackeronline is fun too but only for HRs

      • Motor_City_Bombshell 3 years ago

        Uh, no. I don’t think you understand the Jays situation in comparison to your Yankees. Yankees have a surplus of offense and a young and dynamic prospect named Jesus Montero without a position. Blue Jays have a potential franchise player who helps solidify theirs. Why don’t you get your facts straight before you make a shortsighted and ignorant comment such as “Jays GM is questionable at best”. 

    • Morley C 3 years ago

      And the Jays will thank Pineda when he gives up bombs to Lawrie? Hey-o!

      • MB923 3 years ago

        About as much as the Yankees hitters have thanked Romero for 8 HR’s allowed in YS in only 43 innings. Morrow for 4 HR in 25 innings (when combined with the Old YS, 6 in 28 innings), Cecil 3 HR in 22 innings and Drabek, the only one with 0 HR against, but has an ERA near 20 (yes 1 game small sample, just saying though)

        • Dave2727 3 years ago

          Wow.  Those are some impressive stats.  Where were these stud pitchers in October?

          • MB923 3 years ago

            Watching it at home in Canada?  Although I do see this team finally making it to the playoffs within the next few years, especially with teh 2nd wild card added in (although that should not be a 1 game playoff. Best of 3 I wouldn’t mind though)

        • Shifty1 3 years ago

          exactly like the above.   Much like when all the LH hitters hit those excuse me pop-up HRs off Pineda into the RF bleachers.

          • MB923 3 years ago

            Every starting pitcher on the Blue Jays except Villineuva allowed more than 1 HR/9 innings. Pineda allowed under 1 per 9 (And he had a better HR/9 ratio Away than at Safeco) .

            Sure he’ll give up the HR ball on occasion, but every pitcher does. CC allowed 5 HR’s in 1 game this year (to the Rays of all teams)

          • RobA 3 years ago

            Yeah, the Jays are pitching in a hitters park, and Pineda is pitcching in a serious pitchers park. expect that HR/9 ratio to go up significantly. The yanks RF fence is barely 300 ft for gods sake. It’s little league.

          • MB923 3 years ago

            Oh I agree it will go up, there’s no question about that. But it’s not like the Yankees traded away a 5 tool player for him. And did you forget Montero hit in a hitters park and now is hitting in a pitchers park? While I call this a very fair trade right now, it can be a lose-lose trade as much as a win-win trade

          • Shifty1 3 years ago

            Dont think there is much argument to a Pineda/Montero swap being a fair trade.    Seems the question as to who is better between Lawrie/Montero.  Yanks did well to get Pineda for Jesus.  Both fine young talents.

    • your welcome :p

    • rundmc1981 3 years ago

      Or as a Yankees fan, you should be wondering why SEA was shopping Pineda with so much fervor – unless you don’t believe in “you can never have enough good pitching” (which I don’t). 

      If I were NYY, I’d be approaching Pineda like a milk carton 2 weeks after its expiration. 

      • Vmmercan 3 years ago

        I think in Seattle in that stadium with that roster dynamic, Seattle CAN afford to give up quality pitching for an elite bat. They need a bat capable of production anywhere, but they can turn a lot of decent pitchers into very good pitchers simply based on location…

      • UltimateYankeeFan 3 years ago

        The Mariners were going nowhere in a hurry regardless of how much pitching they had.  They needed offense.  This was a trade that benefited both teams.  You can look for a conspiracy theory if you like all you want here and you won’t find any.

      • $3513744 3 years ago

        It was probably more “we have absolutely zero offense” than it was about having enough pitching.

  7. Pineda now is probably pretty close to what Marcum was when that trade happened in terms of value.  Lawrie is way more valuable now than he was when that trade happened. Thus, Pineda for Lawrie doesn’t really make sense.

    • toddcoffeytime 3 years ago

      Pineda at 5 years of team control and Marcum at only 2….Pineda is thus far more valuable than Marcum ever was.  Not saying its what the Jays should have done, just sayin.

      • Marcum is established though.  His arm, despite TJ, isn’t going to fall off and he’s going to maintain his value/ age at a rate consistent with other similar pitchers.  We can’t really be sure about Pineda, especially after 1 season of 99MPH fastballs in a pitcher-friendly environment/division.  For example, a pitcher with such a high FB% doesn’t typically perform well in Yankee Stadium/the AL East.

        • toddcoffeytime 3 years ago

          Perhaps you could say Marcum is established now, but when he was traded for Lawrie he was only a year removed from TJ surgery. But I’m not basing their values on FB%, fastball speed, park effects, strikeouts, innings pitched etc…I’m merely stating that 5 years of team control is infinitely more valuable than 2.

  8. Marginal offense….Brett Lawrie? Clearly you have not watched this player, or understand the drive he has to be an elite player. Pineda is awesome, but Lawrie is special…he combines crazy athletic ability with a mindset of a warrior. He will open up many more eyes this season, I believe.

    • MarinersFan24 3 years ago

      The mindset of a warrior? Ok Cris Collinsworth…

      • Lucas Kschischang 3 years ago

        Clearly you haven’t seen this kid when he hits the ball.
        He nearly tears off hands when he high-fives his teammates.

      • Yankees420 3 years ago

        Haha.  I hate Collinsworth more than any other announcer.

  9. Why trade a future All Star who constantly helps fill the stadium just
    by his country of birth for someone that the team has a plenty of in the
    minors. The Jays are loaded with 2nd and 3rd pitchers in the minors,
    but they are lacking some true aces, the only potential ace is
    Synderguard. Adding Pineda and losing Lawrie would not get them any
    closer to contending.

    • Pineda has the upside as an ace. He is a number 2 right NOW. To your point “why trade a future all star” Pineda already is an all star.

      • He does not have ace potential, playing in Seattle (extreamly pitcher friendly park) and AL west helped his numbers. He still had a 3.74 ERA as a rookie which is great. But he had a 2.92 ERA at home and a 4.40 ERA on the road, which shows how playing in Seattle really helped his numbers. His ERA was 5.12 after the all star breat, meaning either fatigue set in or that teams started to figure out how to hit against him. He also has a 14.54 ERA against Boston (I know it was only 4 innings) and a 5.30 ERA against the Jays, probably two of the teams that he will pitch the most against. Dont get me wrong he has great stuff and hes a great pitcher but he is no Ace. Would you rather have an all star playing defence and offence in every inning everyday or an all star playing once every five days for an average of 7 innings?
        Players like Pineda are not rare, theres at least 1 new one every year, but getting a player of Lawrie’s skill, athletism, and character are rare.

        • Motor_City_Bombshell 3 years ago

          Nailed it perfectly.

          • MB923 3 years ago

            He did, but he also left out his former teammate Felix Hernandez’s first full season of stats. Which were worse than Pineda. I am not comparing the pitchers though so don’t get me wrong. 

            Actually he didn’t nail it perfectly because the Yankees did not trade a player who plays offense and defense. They traded a guy who plays offense. I will say Lawrie is more valuable to the Jays than Montero would have been for the Yankees, but that doesn’t mean it’s a bad trade for the Yankees.

          • I wasnt calling the Yankees trading Montero for Pineda a bad trade. It was actually a really fair trade because Montero doesnt play defence.

            Felix’s first season saw him have a 2.67 ERA at the age of 19. In his first full season he was only 20 and it was his sophomore season (players tend to do worse on their sophomore season). Pineda was 22 in his first season, which is three years older than King or 2 if you start from his first full season. Felix also does equally well against all teams, the highest ERA he has against any team is 4.37 (against the Jays :O).

            Pineda is a great pitcher that only plays defence in an average of 7 innings every 5th game.
            Montero is a great batter that only plays offence 9 innings every game.
            Lawrie is a great player that plays offence and defence 9 innings everygame.
            If the Jays were willing to offer Lawrie do you think that Seattle would have taken Montero or Lawrie? My point is Lawrie’s value is much higher.

          • MB923 3 years ago

            I’ve said that from the beginning that Lawrie means much more to the Jays than Montero would have meant to the Yankees.

          • MB923 3 years ago

            He did, but he also left out his former teammate Felix Hernandez’s first full season of stats. Which were worse than Pineda. I am not comparing the pitchers though so don’t get me wrong. 

            Actually he didn’t nail it perfectly because the Yankees did not trade a player who plays offense and defense. They traded a guy who plays offense. I will say Lawrie is more valuable to the Jays than Montero would have been for the Yankees, but that doesn’t mean it’s a bad trade for the Yankees.

        • Motor_City_Bombshell 3 years ago

          Nailed it perfectly.

        • xthetouristx 3 years ago

          Check out Felix’s home/road stats in his rookie season.

      • He does not have ace potential, playing in Seattle (extreamly pitcher friendly park) and AL west helped his numbers. He still had a 3.74 ERA as a rookie which is great. But he had a 2.92 ERA at home and a 4.40 ERA on the road, which shows how playing in Seattle really helped his numbers. His ERA was 5.12 after the all star breat, meaning either fatigue set in or that teams started to figure out how to hit against him. He also has a 14.54 ERA against Boston (I know it was only 4 innings) and a 5.30 ERA against the Jays, probably two of the teams that he will pitch the most against. Dont get me wrong he has great stuff and hes a great pitcher but he is no Ace. Would you rather have an all star playing defence and offence in every inning everyday or an all star playing once every five days for an average of 7 innings?
        Players like Pineda are not rare, theres at least 1 new one every year, but getting a player of Lawrie’s skill, athletism, and character are rare.

  10. rundmc1981 3 years ago

    Whoa! Brett Lawrie is too good of a hitter to have changed hands twice before putting it altogether. TOR knows that.

    Sounds like SEA just HAD to get rid of Pineda before the secret was out on him.

  11. Tammy Rainey 3 years ago

    Lawrie will have the best career of the three, barring injury. Alex is wise. 

    • xthetouristx 3 years ago

      Just like Jeremy Reed did being an elite CF prospect as both a hitter and defender.  Came up and hit almost .400.  That worked out.

  12. bobbylu 3 years ago

    Thank you Alex for not pulling the trigger.

  13. Dylan 3 years ago

    Wow, could u imagine an infield of Lawrie, Ackley, Franklin, and Smoak for the next 6 years. I fully understand why AA balked.

  14. jays023 3 years ago

    I would have been screwed, I just got his jersey

    I’d like to see Pineda pitch in the AL East before I wish this trade happened

  15. TBJAY 3 years ago

    Don’t forget, the Jays got Lawrie for Marcum.  I would have traded Marcum for Pineda anytime.  

    • renegadeisback 3 years ago

      So what? Lawrie is worth far far more now than he was last year. It’s cute to use 20/20 hindsight.

  16. TheodoreRoosevelt 3 years ago

    Winning is far more important than local heroes when it comes to marketing. If Lawrie can be moved in a trade that makes the Jays stronger, then it is the right thing to do. For Pineda…no. 

    • Shifty1 3 years ago

      Agreed 100%. 
      Although I dont think there are very many players that would greatly benefit the Jays enough to move Lawrie, especially with them having the players they already have and what they have coming from arguably the top farm system in the game.

  17. philpbarnes 3 years ago

    Well out of the three of them, I personally think Lawrie is the better player. Just my opinion though and maybe ill be completely wrong. But Lawrie really impressed anytime I got to watch him play last year.

    • He’s also the most marketable of the three. Great non-trade even though this report is completely bogus.

  18. joeybw 3 years ago

    Pineda is a stud but I wouldn’t bother asking the Jays for Lawrie, he’s more untouchable than Joey Bats. That’s probably our problem, Wade has #3 potential if he puts it all together and Niemann looks like a front line starter when he’s healthy but too often, he’s not. We are probably asking for too much in return. I really just want a catcher, Molina needs to be the back up and the personal catcher for Helly and Moore maybe, help catch those corners but Jose Molina is not a starter.

  19. Sully65 3 years ago

    Montero is without question the real deal, if I am the Mariners and plan on building my offense around him I would be begging and pleading with him to learn another position besides catcher. Catching he will need to take every 5th day off and is just so rough on your knees. They need to coax at least 155 games out of this young guy to make this trade worthwhile.

  20. Encarnacion's Parrot 3 years ago

    So people think Anthopoulos made a questionable decision by not trading a potential elite 3Bman for a #2 pitcher who probably would have been rocked in SkyDome? Maybe I’ve gotten into the eggnog a little early this year, but I’d much rather keep the position player who’s in the line-up 162 games a year, possibly putting up 6-8 WAR seasons before he’s even 28, than have the 2-pitch pitcher who’s ceiling may be 5 WAR.

    Don’t get me wrong, Pineda can always introduce a 3rd pitch and possibly become better than his currently small sample-size indicates, but if you’re trading a player with Lawrie’s potential, you do it in a package for Felix, and we all know that wouldn’t happen.

    • Pineda has all the makings of a future ace. No he isn’t Felix (I’m glad you understand Felix is ours and you can’t have him) but Michael is 6’7″ and the upper 90s he throws seems even faster. If he develops an average change, the Yankees made a really good trade.

      • Encarnacion's Parrot 3 years ago

        And then there’s the ballpark factor, where Pineda doesn’t have Safeco to pad his numbers anymore. With 4 of the 5 parks in the AL East being extreme hitters parks, chances are Pineda’s numbers will inflate–not because of a lackluster arm, just the aforementioned ballpark factor.

        Low FIP’s, low SIERA, high K/9 rates, high ERA’s are what I’d expect from Pineda for the next 1-2 years. Also, height and FB speed doesn’t equate to much. Just ask Daniel Cabrera.

        • MB923 3 years ago

          And then there’s the ballpark factor, where Montero doesn’t have Yankee Stadium to pad his numbers anymore. With 3 of the 4 parks in the AL West being extreme pitchers parks, chances are Montero’s numbers will deflate—not because of a lackluster bat, just the aforementioned ballpark factor.

          Moderate BA, Low Slug%, moderate amount of HR’s are what I’d expect from Montero for the next 1-2 years.

          • Encarnacion's Parrot 3 years ago

            I see what you did there.

            I don’t think Safeco will effect Montero as much as it did Pineda, but that’s me.

          • MB923 3 years ago

            I agree. I don’t get how his FIP was better Away when his ERA was much worse Away. 

          • jjs91 3 years ago

            Not one pineda fly balls would have been a hr in yankee stadium based soley on distance.

      • notsureifsrs 3 years ago

        that it was a good trade for the yankees doesn’t mean it would have been a good one for the jays. both teams made the right decision

        • MB923 3 years ago

          Agreed. As I said earlier, Lawrie I would say is more valuable to the Jays than Montero would have been to the Yankees (for the next couple of years that is). Pineda/Montero (as of now) is a fair trade. Lawrie/Pineda would be a slight edge to teh Jays in a trade.

          • notsureifsrs 3 years ago

            pineda is the biggest wildcard of the three, but that works both ways. he could fall the furthest, but if his change-up becomes legitimate (not in 2012, but beyond that) he could become a cost-controlled ace. pitching is the riskiest commodity, but also the most valuable when it pans out

            you also can’t talk about the potential flukeyness of pineda’s one year sample without acknowledging that lawrie’s sample was even smaller

    • moustacheman 3 years ago

      Talk about team bias… All three have POTENTIAL to be great players… but of the 3 Montero was the most highly regarded, Pineda was right behind him and then Lawrie.  BA had Montero at #3, Pineda was at 16 and Lawrie  was #40…

      Don’t get me wrong, I love Lawrie and think he is the real deal, but as you say about Pineda, Lawrie’s sample size is even smaller.

      It was tough to let Montero go, but it made sense for the yanks.  Pineda’s ceiling is more like a right handed CC Sabathia if he develops his 3rd pitch.

      All three have high potential, and I hope all 3 succeed, but to say Lawrie is by far the best of the 3 is team bias…

      • Encarnacion's Parrot 3 years ago

        Ahh, so prospect rankings mean everything. I’ll keep that in mind for future comments.

        *facepalm*

        • moustacheman 3 years ago

          No it doesn’t, but you call out Pineda for a small sample size when Lawrie has a smaller one… That does mean something.

          • Encarnacion's Parrot 3 years ago

            So you agree then that your argument was invalid.

            I also fail to see how Lawrie’s sample size was smaller, seeing as Lawrie spent more time in the field than Pineda, and appeared in more games.

            Now, that isn’t to say that Lawrie’s sample size wasn’t small, and it was never intended for it to appear I was saying such a thing. But when a 5-tool player is compared to a 2-pitch pitcher, which is what both players currently are, Lawrie clearly has the most value. I never mentioned Montero since his involvement is somewhat irrelevant, but if I had to choose between a young DH, who’s a borderline awful 1Bman, and a 3Bman who’s shown he can at least handle the position adequately, I’ll take the latter.

          • moustacheman 3 years ago

            Pineda was up all season…

            Lawrie came up in august…

            Just because a pitcher isn’t out there every day doesn’t mean he is less valuable.  Tell that to Roy Halladay.  Lawrie had a smaller sample. period.

          • Encarnacion's Parrot 3 years ago

            Sample size does not equate to service time, at least not equally between position player and pitcher.

            Having said that, the argument has been rendered moot by the both of us.

          • MB923 3 years ago

            Surprised you used Roy Halladay as your example. Why not use the AL MVP?

          • moustacheman 3 years ago

            Lol just because I prefer Halladay I suppose.  I actually thought about it too. You’re right tho, I should have!

          • mypoorbuccos 3 years ago

            Lawrie would have almost certainly been up in June or July had it not been for an injury a broken or bruised bone in his hand, I think.

          • johnsmith4 3 years ago

            You have to factor in Lawrie’s age.  Line him up against Longoria from age 18 to 21 and you will see greater achievements from Lawrie.

          • moustacheman 3 years ago

            I forget how old Montero and Pineda are… care to remind me?

      • Motor_City_Bombshell 3 years ago

        But the argument can be made I suppose. Lawrie plays the more demanding position while it’s debatable Montero doesn’t even have a position. The more valuable is the player on the field. 

        Pineda made half his starts in Safeco last year, and this year he’s moving to some very hitter-friendly parks. To go along with his pretty bad second half last year, albeit a small sample size, there’s reason to be concerned. 

        Lawrie made a good showing in his small sample size playing 3B. One shouldn’t take too much stock in the BA Rankings, or prospect rankings in general. They gauge upside, but they can’t accurately project MLB success. I’m not trying to rag on your opinions at all, I just thought it’d be fun to analyze those three players for a minute or five. 

        • moustacheman 3 years ago

          I can definitely see that argument.  I’d definitely agree that as long as Montero does not stick at catcher Lawrie has the edge on a position.

          But in regards to Pineda, his FIP was actually lower away from Safeco, sitting at 3.26 while his FIP at home was 3.62.  Even though his ERA was actually lower at home I wouldn’t read into it too much.

      • Shifty1 3 years ago

        If we are going to live in the winter of 2010 when Lawrie was #40 (after leading a pitchers league in XB hits as the 2nd youngest player in the league)… then I get to proclaim that the White Sox made a great deal to get a surefire 35HR machine like Adam Dunn for only $14mil per.  I will also say that the Jays would be best served to let Bautista play out the year on a 1 year ARB deal and prove he’s not a fluke then try to sign him for $13mil per. lol

        Think it was Sickels (or could have been Callis) that said that if he was still prospect eligible that he would slot Lawrie in behind Harper…. maybe behind Trout too, but I dont think so, IIRC

        • moustacheman 3 years ago

          First,  I didn’t downplay Lawrie’s talent whatsoever.  My only comment was to the commenter who basically said he is much more superior to Montero and Pineda.  That I do not agree with.  They are very different players with very similar value right now.  Only time will tell who is the most valuable.

    • Is it just me or does Pineda sound a lot like a pitcher the Jays already have in Henderson Alvarez (Alvarez has less upside though).

      • Encarnacion's Parrot 3 years ago

        Somewhat similar. Alvarez is much more of a groundball pitcher than Pineda though, which is only a good thing. Alvarez has the ceiling for a solid #2 pitcher, but it’s more accurate to see him become a #3 due to the lack of K’s. Pineda I think has the ceiling for a #1b. Pineda needs to learn a 3rd pitch and induce more groundballs. Alvarez has a 3rd pitch with plus-potential, but it’s average at best right now.

        That’s my opinion for the two, but we all know the saying about opinions. They’re like armpits: everyone has them and they stink.

  21. Brett Lawrie is a stud! Not worth Pineda, who is a solid #2 =S

  22. HAHA good luck getting Lawrie.

  23. Shifty1 3 years ago

    He certainly was an all-star, all the way up until right after the All-star game. lol
    Not sure why people are so quick to hate on Pineda… tho I am sure there is some good difference in his #’s away from Sea or Oak, ha  He is a fine young pitcher I would gladly have welcomed to Toronto… just not at the cost of Lawrie.  Not an indictment of Pineda as much as praise for a special player to be

  24. Guest 3 years ago

    Lawrie > Fatty Montero . Mariners got stuck with an overhyped DH

    • Shortty 3 years ago

      People do realize how little MLB experience Pineda has right? Pitchers are much harder to project than hitters. Big gamble for the Yankees. Drabek was a higher rated prospect than Pineda at the beginning of last year. That just shows how unpredictable hurlers are. Factor in Yankee stadium and The Yankees should be very worried.

      • mozelpuffski 3 years ago

        add in the fact the AL East beat up on him last year…

        • $3513744 3 years ago

          Add to the fact that he pitched bad twice in those parks.  Yeah, great sample size.

          • vilifyingforce 3 years ago

            And once in his own park. 😉

  25. Lawrie should be untouchable at this point.  Period!

  26. Sean Hutchinson 3 years ago

     it can’t… Mariners already traded pineda for montero.

    • Motor_City_Bombshell 3 years ago

      Did you not read the post…? It was discussed. Nothing was ever agreed upon…

  27. Also, Marcum wouldnt have been enough to pry him away from Milwaukee if not for the “attitude issues”

  28. Jays would have to be nuts to trade Brett Lawrie, no thanks

  29. All of this is setting up the Felix for Lawrie plus plus :)… Please? Maybe? Please? PLEEEEEEAAAAAAASSSSSEEEEEEE

    • RobA 3 years ago

      Sure I’ll get disagreed with, but I would do Lawrie for Felix straight up, but not much more. Maybe Lawrie+a C or C+ prospect or something.

  30. Runtime 3 years ago

    They Jays would have never traded their poster boy.

    This guy is going to have his face on the side of the Rogers Centre… and you know what? That’s gonna sell tickets.

  31. Patrick the Pragmatist 3 years ago

    Critics of Mariner trades always overlook how little there has been to spare the last few years.  Since you have to give up something to get something, even adding prospects has not been easy.

    They have to give up something you might miss in order to build.  The Pineda/Montero deal was two for two.  So maybe they are more for filling out the team with talented needs now instead of trying to add some depth.

    Depth has been a issue before and many fans just don’t realize how bad the M’s needed to add more as they only think of big names that could not help the team that much by themselves.

    Cliff Lee was practicallly a gift and a easy flip in mid-season, but the M’s were lucky to have that situation fall into their hands.

    The mass of players they got out the deal that sent out J.J. Putz still should fill three spots on the roster next year with Guti, Vargas & Carp.

    Even the controversial Morrow for League deal was not a straight up.  The M’s did get a lower minors power hitter back also.  Chavez struggled last year,  but the M’s did get two players in return there.

    Fister (and Pauley who was not a significant player) were dealt for multiple players:
    Furbush,  Ruffin, Wells and Martinez.

    They had to restock the organization and rebuild a big club with holes all over at the same time.  No easy task.

  32. Lunchbox45 3 years ago

    adding a starter and having encarnacion or bautista play 3B makes this move from the jays point a no brainer..
    I’m curious as to why a D’arnaud centered deal didn’t intrigue them though

    • JP will get moved to first when d’arnaud is ready (which won’t be all that tough to do, he’s had more than a little practice scooping balls out of the dirt). AA isn’t anxious to trade anyone right now, and I understand why

      • vilifyingforce 3 years ago

        JPA only makes it to first it his bat improves.

    • JP will get moved to first when d’arnaud is ready (which won’t be all that tough to do, he’s had more than a little practice scooping balls out of the dirt). AA isn’t anxious to trade anyone right now, and I understand why

    • vilifyingforce 3 years ago

      A no brainer? We don’t know who else would have been in the deal. Lawrie plus a pitcher with decent potential (Alvarez/Hutch/Deck/who knows)?

      I think AA has plans to deal JPA away once D’Arnaud proves himself, JPA should bring decent value in a deal in a season or two.

      • Lunchbox45 3 years ago

        I meant a no brainer for turner it down, sorry my point wasn’t clear as i re read it

      • $17867741 3 years ago

        Is it feasible to have JP as the DH/backup C, and D’arnaud as the full time catcher?

        • vilifyingforce 3 years ago

          It’s feasible, but, JPA should be able to get us something decent to fill out other parts of the roster should we need it. He could also possibly learn first base if his bat progresses enough.

  33. It’s like 10000 spoons when all you need is a knife…

  34. or Jon Rauch

  35. I would have been very upset if this happened, Lawrie, Pineda, Kipnis, and Maybin are my 4 favorite players, and Pineda in AL East is bad but Lawrie in SAFECO too! Sheesh!

  36. Jim McGrath 3 years ago

    I’m a Red Sox fan. I would only trade Lawrie for King Felix and I’d want someone else from Seattle to go with him. Lawrie is the kind of player I would empty the farm for—sign him long term–like 10 years. He’s a Longoria type, maybe better.

    • It doesn’t matter if Lawrie has Longoria potential. There’s no way Felix would be traded for him straight up, much less Felix and an additional player…that’s just ridiculous.
      Btw, I do think he’ll be better than Longoria.

      • $3513744 3 years ago

        It might happen on Nintendo, so he can keep his fingers crossed.

  37. crashcameron 3 years ago

    “Not sure why people are so quick to hate on Pineda”
    because he will be wearing those pinstripes. it’s too hard not to

  38. this is the worst comment discussion on mlbtr, ever….

  39. The reply columns get so skinny I can’t read them so If I’m repeating someone, oh well. The problem why the Jays didn’t move Lawrie was the M’s wanted MLB ready pitching back in return, too. That’s where they ended up w/Noesi.

  40. crashcameron 3 years ago

    BTW, no one has mentioned just how awful the Marcum-for-Lawrie trade was for the Brewers. 

    • Lucas Kschischang 3 years ago

      It worked out alright, Marcum’s been very good for the Brewcrew.

  41. Sniderlover 3 years ago

    Doesn’t surprise me. That would have been the price and I’m sure Padres asked for Lawrie too in Latos talks.

    I’m glad Jays didn’t do it. Not that Pineda is bad or anything. I think he will be a #1-2 but Lawrie could be a special player as well. Trading Lawrie for Pineda or another pitcher would have filled one hole and created another. We also have pitching coming up so I’m fine with not making this move.

  42. safari_punch 3 years ago

    Lawrie is not going to stick at 3B. He’ll be a corner outfielder and I don’t know if he’ll be able to produce enough to warrant the switch.

    I would have taken Pineda if the Mariners would have thrown in Nick Franklin. Maybe some sort of two for two deal.

    • Sniderlover 3 years ago

      Unless he becomes really big, he will probably stick at 3rd base. He was excellent in the majors and he will be hit for pretty much any position. His bat is that good and was never the issue. Issue with him was always position and defense but he seemed to transition to 3rd very nicely. 

  43. rundmc1981 3 years ago

    Montero looks like more of an impact bat that that team desperately needs. Lawrie looks to be a more disciplined hitter, but between an older Ichiro and Dustin Ackley, you’ve got some nice pieces that get on base already.

  44. goodbyebaseball 3 years ago

    Who cares? They’ll both be sitting at home during the post season. 

  45. stl_cards16 3 years ago

    The funny thing is.  If Rasmus was a player that had came up with the Jays and struggled and AA traded him for a really good lefty with starter potential and 2 supplemental picks.  We would be seeing things like “AA does it again!!”

  46. Hits & Gigs 3 years ago

    Each team took a risk and so far the risk the Cardinals took has payed off. We’re still waiting to see if it will pay off for the Jays. You’re absolutely correct about picks. I don’t really know how you’re coming to some of your conclusions, though. 

  47. stl_cards16 3 years ago

    What conclusions?

    I’m not even saying it was a bad trade for the Jays. But these comments are so old and off-base it’s crazy. Even if Rasmus becomes a pretty good CF(which I think he will) the Jays still gave up talent to get that.

  48. renegadeisback 3 years ago

    You could say that about 95% of the players discussed on MLBTR. Troll elsewhere.

  49. Tko11 3 years ago

    Its quite early to say that, Pineda has done nothing yet.

  50. Lucas Kschischang 3 years ago

    I think a lot of people are confusing pure stuff with pure pitching prowess and guile here, when comparing Pineda to Marcum.

    IMO, I’d rather have Marcum on my staff, as he’s experienced success in tough environments, and has more of a proven track record.

    Teams will overvalue a young, big, strong guy with a good fastball; but undervalue a guy with great control but slower than average stuff.

    That’s how baseball works; and always has.

    You throw 100MPH, with no control, someone will sign you to a pro-contract.

    You throw 85MPH, with good control and stuff: well you better be a lefty with a nasty hook, or else your career’s over after high school and a year or two of college ball.

  51. Lucas Kschischang 3 years ago

    I think a lot of people are confusing pure stuff with pure pitching prowess and guile here, when comparing Pineda to Marcum.

    IMO, I’d rather have Marcum on my staff, as he’s experienced success in tough environments, and has more of a proven track record.

    Teams will overvalue a young, big, strong guy with a good fastball; but undervalue a guy with great control but slower than average stuff.

    That’s how baseball works; and always has.

    You throw 100MPH, with no control, someone will sign you to a pro-contract.

    You throw 85MPH, with good control and stuff: well you better be a lefty with a nasty hook, or else your career’s over after high school and a year or two of college ball.

  52. GrayhawkAZ 3 years ago

    4th place in their OWN Division.. hahahha

  53. umm… no. 

    from both sides the deal is a win. the rentals and rzep from the jays helped the cards with the WS, and the jays got a talented young player from the cards that they had long coveted. 

    from a jays fans perspective, even if rasmus completely busts, we still arent likely to miss any of the pieces we gave up. thats how lopsided the trade is from our perspective. rzep doesnt seem to be bound for the rotation with the cards, and he definitely wasnt with the jays, so his value is very limited despite his years of control. as a previous poster said, 3 years of rasmus in all likelihood is worth a lot more than 4 of rzep. 

    the problem is that jays and cards fans are speaking different languages wrt this trade. in terms of player value, the cards were likely fleeced, but obviously winning the world series trumps that from the cards perspective. from the jays perspective, the fact that the cards won after the deal means nothing, we got what we wanted in rasmus and gave up very little of value.

  54. johnsmith4 3 years ago

    I have equated Dotel & Jackson to supplemental picks.  Dotel turned out to be greater than that with the added 1st pick.

    Rzepczynski has been profiled as 4th starter potential by scouts.

    Rasmus, was ranked as the 9th best high school prospect in his draft year and 3rd best prospect while playing minor pro ball.

  55. BlueJaysAD 3 years ago

    Not true. If AA traded Travis Snider at a low value point like this for spare parts and a potential above average middle reliever with 4 years of team control, even if they were in a playoff race, Jays fans would be calling for his head. And Travis Snider hasn’t even had the one excellent season that Colby has.

  56. TheodoreRoosevelt 3 years ago

    The Jays really didn’t give up much talent for Rasmus. 
    Stewart was more than expendable given the Jays’ depth chart for starting pitchers. Dotel and Frasor were a couple of veteran relievers on a non-contending team who were easily replaceable at the end of the season (and, indeed, Frasor was re-signed). Patterson, c’mon. 
    The only guy that effectively created a hole for the Jays was Rzep, and as much as Jays fans liked him…it is a reliever for a highly-touted CF. 
    It’s great that the trade worked out for the Cards. This isn’t about one-upsmanship or who “won”. But this notion that the Jays gave up anything truly significant is just false. 

  57. stl_cards16 3 years ago

    “from a jays fans perspective, even if rasmus completely busts, we still arent likely to miss any of the pieces we gave up”

    You obviously won’t miss any of the rentals.  Maybe not even Rzep if he only ends up being a good bullpen arm.  But for a team building toward the future that is banking on it’s farm system, how can you sit here and say that those 2 draft picks aren’t valuable?

    Jays fans go crazy about how smart AA is about acquiring draft picks and how valuable they are.  But when they give them up, then all of the sudden they’re not so great. 

  58. $3513744 3 years ago

    It’s smart until they actually have to play the games this year.

  59. stl_cards16 3 years ago

    So when Jays acquire supplemental draft picks they =gold.  When they give them up, they’re not anything that would help in the future.

    and this isn’t the AA fan club here?

  60. stl_cards16 3 years ago

    I’ll come back over here.

    John Mozeliak has developed a World Series contender AND a Top 5 Farm System.
    You can praise AA all you want, it’s just not a steal like you guys makke it out to be.

  61. It is obvious you don’t have any idea how valuable a good bullpen arm is… Rep facing guys like Fielder, Howard, Hamilton for 1 out. Not an easy task!!!! If you guys ever get back to contending. You will see much more clearly.

  62. TheodoreRoosevelt 3 years ago

    Nobody is saying that draft picks aren’t a good thing! Their value is incorporated into the overall value of the likes of Dotel when assessing the trade. 

    Draft picks are brilliant if you run out a dodgy reliever for a season in a non-contending year and get to boost the farm in return. But they are nothing compared to acquiring a high-ceiling CF like Rasmus. 
    If Miller and Tallet were worth a couple of draft picks, do you really think they’d figure into the conversation if the Cards had traded the pair for Lawrie? 

  63. jays already have 2 1st rounders and 3 supplemental picks before the 2nd round. So yes, extra picks would be nice, but its not like we dont already have a bunch.  

  64. jays already have 2 1st rounders and 3 supplemental picks before the 2nd round. So yes, extra picks would be nice, but its not like we dont already have a bunch.  

  65. brian_dfhl 3 years ago

    sigh…as a Jays fan this is why I hate when I see comments on here about AA doing it again or the stupid ninja thing.  It makes people generalize Jays fans as all being AA fanboys.  Some of us can look at deals objectively too you know!

  66. TheodoreRoosevelt 3 years ago

    You’re comparing apples with oranges. 

    AA has very little money to work with. Over the past couple of years he has acquired a host of middling players and converted them – through draft picks – into a top-rated farm. That has been the gameplan, emphasised by the large hire of scouts and earmarked money for draftees. 

    Now if it’s a choice between a couple of supplemental draft picks or picking up a Colby Rasmus, 99% of fans would take Rasmus. That’s even better. 

    Again – it is great that it worked out for the Cards, but it is wrong to say the Jays gave up ‘talent’. If you really think that, please pinpoint how the Jays are weaker in any area of the organisation because of the trade. 

  67. Encarnacion's Parrot 3 years ago

    I try to put it in perspective with little bias, but there’s also that eggnog haha.

    Is a 22-year old 5-tool–it seems Lawrie’s defense is just fine–position player worth a 23-year old 2-pitch pitcher? At this very moment, no, and it’s not really close either.

    Ironic fact: both players were born on the same day.

  68. Jays bullpen was awful last year even with him. This year they are reloaded with not overpaid relievers. So I would rather have Rasmus.

  69. Lucas Kschischang 3 years ago

    It is obvious you don’t have any idea how valuable a good centrefielder is. Facing guys day in and day out, contributing to defence. Not an easy task! If you guys make the playoffs this year, you’ll be surprised. In 5 years when the Jays are perennial contenders, and the Cards have a bunch of injury-prone has-beens plugging their holes, you will see much more clearly.

  70. stl_cards16 3 years ago

    “do you really think they’d figure into the conversation if the Cards had traded the pair for Lawrie”

    Of course they would.  That’s part of the value that comes with the player.  The Jays have developed one of the top Farm Systems in the game by DRAFTING, so have the Cardinals.  To act like those draft picks shouldn’t figure into the value of a trade is ridiculous.

  71. stl_cards16 3 years ago

    “For the sake of the trade I hope that Zep does become a great player and not just a LOOGY like he appears to be right now. The trade is lopsided in my opinion”
    -Noah Sherman

    These are the quotes that I can’t stand.  It makes no sense.  Basically he is saying it doesn’t matter what Rasmus turns into, if Scrabble doesn’t become a good starter it’s a win for the Jays.  Which is completely false.

    The trade worked out for both teams.  It upgraded 3 spots on the pitching staff for the Cardinals, got them a nice arm for the future, and 2 draft picks.

    So when I see things like “except for trading with the Cardinals” and junk like that, yeah it gets old.

    I’ll be done now, have a good one.

  72. goodbyebaseball 3 years ago

    Oooh, ouch…pretty sure fans from teams other than the Blue Jays are entitled to post, unless I missed that disclaimer somewhere. 

  73. goodbyebaseball 3 years ago

    Oooh, ouch…pretty sure fans from teams other than the Blue Jays are entitled to post, unless I missed that disclaimer somewhere. 

  74. TheodoreRoosevelt 3 years ago

    Why misrepresent? In the post you are replying to I stated “Their value is incorporated into the overall value of the likes of Dotel when assessing the trade”

    I don’t know why you’ve got such a bee in your bonnet about this. The majority of Jays fans have said and continue to say that they are happy that the Cards’ fans feel the deal worked out for them, that it got them a World Series. Why take it personally when that same majority say that they didn’t feel hurt by the Rasmus trade at all?
    This isn’t an AA love-in. If you know of a player of a Rasmus-like calibre who can be acquired for a similar pricetag, let us know!

  75. brian_dfhl 3 years ago

    As a Jays fan I still love this deal since we got a potentially really good player for what amounted to  a decent prospect and spare parts.  That being said I would not call it a steal at all….the move was a big part of a World Series win.  Good deal for the Cards and if Rasmus turns into a decent player again good deal for the Jays.

  76. stl_cards16 3 years ago

    You asked a question and I answered it, not sure how that is misrepresenting.

    Anyway, I like Rasmus and I stated above that I don’t think it was a bad trade for the Jays.  It’s just annoying to listen to all of that every post about the Jays.

    I’m sure Jon Jay will be hitting ~.200 this year!

  77. I wonder how far to the right these comments can go!

  78. TheodoreRoosevelt 3 years ago

    It’s misrepresenting because the post you replied to said exactly the thing that you suggested it didn’t. 

    IMO there are a lot of Rogers and AA apologists out there, but when it comes to AA’s track record for trades there is very little to be upset about, very little pain felt. Only Napoli really, and that was likely forced by payroll considerations. The organisation wouldn’t be as hefty as it is now if AA wasn’t winning transactions.

  79. Fstuffup 3 years ago

    It’s not irony it’s a coincidence… lmao learn the difference 

  80. RobA 3 years ago

    You mean, Girardi, the 14 year vet, who was an all star catcher, and also the current manager? I would imagine his opinion is probabl he most influential on the question of who can and can’t catch…..put another way, it’s very likely that Girardi’s opinion IS the Yankees opinion on if Montero can catch or not.

  81. notsureifsrs 3 years ago

    even if you don’t believe he can catch you’d still have him catch in AAA for the reason i just mentioned: it increases his value. cashman’s not stupid

    they wanted to believe he could catch. they gave him every opportunity to figure it out. he failed miserably every time. girardi wasn’t being superstitious; he knows what a passable catcher looks like and montero isn’t it

  82. notsureifsrs 3 years ago

    “they believed he could catch” does not follow from “they had him catch in AAA”. you’d have him catch in AAA even if you didn’t believe he could catch for the reason i just named: it increases his value

    the yankees wanted to believe he could catch, sure. they gave him every opportunity. he failed every time

  83. i love montero…but to say he has way more value as a DH than lawrie does as a 3b is crazy

  84. Encarnacion's Parrot 3 years ago

    I will endeavor to learn the difference, master.

  85. notsureifsrs 3 years ago

    i was about to take this seriously and dig up the scouting reports for you, but then i remembered you are the yankee fan who refers to eduardo nunez as a “proven offensive force”

    phew. that was close

  86. MB923 3 years ago

    Girardi was a 1 time all star in 15 seasons. That’s nothing to brag about. 

  87. notsureifsrs 3 years ago

    3 years at $60M, don’t forget. it’s close

    not enough for the mariners to actually do it, but close in terms of value

  88. RobA 3 years ago

    Still an all star catcher, by definition. Plus, he played 14 seasons at the position. And, again, he’s the manager. My guess is if he says Montero can’t catch, then that’s the organizations official position.

  89. stl_cards16 3 years ago

    “Rasmus, was ranked the 9th best high school prospect in his draft year and 3rd best prospect while playing minor pro ball.”

    While there is still upside with Rasmus, those are irrelevant.  David Carr was the #1 rated QB about the same time Rasmus was the 9th best high school prospect…….

  90. nictonjr 3 years ago

    One off season ago Cards fans wouldn’t trade Rasmus unless they got  Kemp and  Kershaw.  What a difference a year makes.  Rzep and 2 supple picks are a steal for him….

  91. MB923 3 years ago

    Jeter has been a 11 time all star at shortstop, Mike Piazza was a 12 time all star at Catcher. If they ever became managers, would you ask them first who can/can’t play SS/Catcher?

  92. stl_cards16 3 years ago

    hyperbole much?

  93. Shifty1 3 years ago

    lol, that is all.

  94. stl_cards16 3 years ago

    “Not true. If AA traded Travis Sinder at a low value point like this for spare parts and a potential STARTER that is already an above average reliever with 4 years of team control and 2 suplemental round picks”

    Fixed it for you

  95. People have tunnel vision when it comes to trades.  Maybe if you look at only the players involved some would say yeah the Jays could end up better cause they received Rasmus.  But for those that realize trades are made to win games and titles, the Cardinals already won. The Jays could end up being winners too, but Rasmus has to turn out.  The Rasmus trade was a major reason why the Cardinals won this year. Are you telling me that the Jays wouldn’t have traded Rasmus for a World Series ring?  I would think that a Jays fan would trade any top prospect for a WS ring right about now. Jays fans have to win in trades, since their team doesn’t win titles I guess.

  96. mozelpuffski 3 years ago

    you do realize the al east beat up on him last year?

  97. TheodoreRoosevelt 3 years ago

    Look, if those kinda comments bother you, just say “Yep, but we got a World Series.”
    Flags fly forever and all that. End of story. 

    But if you’re genuinely interested in assessing the value involved in the trade, then the pain for the Jays was almost non-existent. The bullpen is stronger than it ever was, Stewart would not have made the rotation. Rasmus effectively cost $10m (Teahen) and two supp picks. It’s the $10m that hurts the Jays the most, I imagine. 
    I’d wager that’s the objective opinion of most Jays fans. Nothing to do with dumping on the Cards – you got your WS. 

  98. Lucas Kschischang 3 years ago

    I love how you’re complaining about AA fan boys, when you’re the biggest homer here…

    Your name.
    Your comments.

    Yes, the Cards won the WS, but who from that trade REALLY pushed them over the hump…

    Albert Pujols come to mind?

  99. stl_cards16 3 years ago

    I would(and have) agree that it is worth the risk for the Jays. But not even counting the World Series for the Cardinals, I don’t believe they got “robbed”.

    For a CF who had worn out his welcome with teammates and coaches(not me believe me I wish we still had him) I think they got decent future talent in return.

  100. TheodoreRoosevelt 3 years ago

    Yes, Jays fans loved Stewart…because he was the closest thing to a decent prospect the Jays had back in the dark days of 2009. When we acquired him for Rolen he shot straight to the top of the charts. 

    Then AA rebuilt the farm. Stewart would not distinguish himself among all the other names that are there, and he wouldn’t be a favourite for the rotation. 
    As for the draft pick, Rasmus was no.5 and then no.3 on Baseball America’s top 100 prospects list. What are the chances that the draft pick would be that highly thought-of? It’s an irrelevance for deals such as this. 

  101. johnsmith4 3 years ago

    A player’s pedigree plays a big role in his projection.  That being said, it is not everything.  However, that doesn’t render irrelevant.

  102. Lucas Kschischang 3 years ago

    Comparing baseball scouting to football scouting; nice.

    Relevant too!

  103. JaysNesan 3 years ago

    Jays ranked as top 3rd farm system. Yankees are behind the Jays.

  104. chico65 3 years ago

    I want to know why the picks are supple.  Have they been treated as leather has?

  105. nictonjr 3 years ago

    Not really. 2010 fWAR:  Rasmus 4.3  Kemp 0.4.  And Rasmus played for near minimum…

  106. Lucas Kschischang 3 years ago

    I don’t get where “future talent” comes in.

    How many supplemental picks make it to the bigs?

    Rzep is nothing special; his calling card is as a one inning guy out of the pen, whereas the Jays got a plus talent in Rasmus, who plays a premium position.

  107. Lucas Kschischang 3 years ago

    Rzep was never above average. And never will be.

    He’s an average lefty-on-lefty guy outta the pen.

    He doesn’t have the stuff to start.

    Best case scenario: Scott Downs

  108. jjs91 3 years ago

    The yankees had a better rotation than the jays so im not sure your logic works here.

  109. jjs91 3 years ago

    The yankees had a better rotation than the jays so im not sure your logic works here.

  110. I don’t believe that Montero is better than Pineda. Montero can’t play defense, and because of that he’s not worth near as much.
    The M’s really made a bad trade. I can’t believe they included Campos in the trade as well.

  111. stl_cards16 3 years ago

    How are my comments any different than the Jays fans?  At least I can acknowledge that it was a good move for the Jays to take a shot aty Rusmus’ upside.  Sorry I let it be known what team I root for on a BASEBALL website!

    Edit: If you don’t think that trade helped win the Cardinals the Worled Series then please don’t respond. It upgraded the Cardinals in 3 positions. It’s not that hard to figure out. It takes a team.

  112. stl_cards16 3 years ago

    Absolutely right.  Football scouting has proved much more accurate. Thanks for helping the point.

  113. stl_cards16 3 years ago

    Wow….you guys are like gnats on a warm spring day. lol

    Apparently you didn’t watch the playoffs.  Rzep dominated lefty vs lefty matchups his whole time in St. Louis.

    If Scrabbles best case is Scott Downs, Rasmus would be Corey Patterson.

  114. stl_cards16 3 years ago

    I don’t care what year it was.  If it was ever on the table I would of packed Colby and drove him to LA to get that deal done.

  115. crashcameron 3 years ago

    what an ironic coincidence. i think Fstuffie-pants just rained on your day

  116. $3513744 3 years ago

    Now those are just fightin’ words

  117. $3513744 3 years ago

    They beat up the GM?  I hope he filed a lawsuit.

  118. $3513744 3 years ago

    They beat up the GM?  I hope he filed a lawsuit.

  119. MB923 3 years ago

    Are you going based on last year or has that been updated this year?

  120. Yankees420 3 years ago

    Except Montero had already be rumored in many trades and was actually offered for Lee before the Rangers got him, so the comparison doesn’t really hold. 

  121. Encarnacion's Parrot 3 years ago

    With the weather we just had today here in Toronto (Sun and +10°C), and classes canceled, nothing was raining on it. Not even an ironic coincidence.

  122. Yankees420 3 years ago

    43 games is 26% of a season, not insignificant in my mind.  But I guess it depends on how much value you place in any 1 season…

  123. Excellent contribution MikhelB!

  124. crashcameron 3 years ago

    actually I blew it. was supposed to me making a cheeky Alanis Morrisette reference and say like “rain on your wedding day” 
    (probably wasn’t worth the effort!)

  125. BlueJaysAD 3 years ago

    Would the Jays trade Rasmus for a World Series ring? Sure. But that’s not what the Cardinals did. They traded him for a bunch of spare parts that were unspectacular down the stretch and the team made the post-season because of the epic collapse of the Braves. And if you’re looking at the post-season, you can’t talk about a few good innings by Rzepcsynski and Dotel while overlooking that Jackson was terrible. Add their entire production up – pitchers the Jays sent to St. Louis in the Rasmus trade put up an ERA of 4.98 in the post-season. And Corey Patterson didn’t make the playoff roster. Moz (who is indeed a very good General Manager) made a trade; they later won a World Series. They didn’t win it BECAUSE of the trade.

  126. notsureifsrs 3 years ago

    that was just media lies, obviously. he was untouchable right up until the minute before he was traded

  127. If the trade hadn’t been made they wouldn’t have a chance to catch the Braves.  They had an urgent need for a starter.  Jackson filled that need.  They had an urgent need for a loogy.  Scrabble filled that need.  They had an urgent need for a reliable reliever.  Dotel filled that need.  Jackson went 5-2 with a 3.58 era. Remove the couple outlying games where he was left in to save the bullpen his stats would be much better.  Zep seemed to get ever lefty out in any situation.  Dotel was clutch on many occasions. The trade solidified many holes and yes they won because of it.  And I believe Raz hit .173 with a .201 obp.  Yeah the Jays really pulled one over on the Cardinals.  I would probably stick to hockey, ehhh.

  128. $17867741 3 years ago

    You still can’t rule out that Montero won’t have a Mike Napoli type-of-evolution. Napoli was a lousy catcher for most of his career, but he got better as he got older.

    Obviously, the Yankees boosted Montero’s trading value by marketing his catching abilities as well as his good offense, but in the future I won’t be surprised if he becomes a C/1B/DH type of player.

  129. BlueJaysAD 3 years ago

    Oh I’m sorry (pronounced, I assure you, in an entirely stereotypical way), I’m not sure I was clear enough aboat (pretty funny, eh?) how those pitchers who totally won StL a World Series basically put up a 5 ERA in the playoffs. I’m surprised that I, a syrup sucking hoser, have to explain this to you, but that isn’t good. Now if you wanna talk about how the Jays gave up on Chris Carpenter too early then yes, you guys are totally welcome for that championship.

  130. So you’re telling me if that trade had not been made they would have made it to the postseason?  I assure you that is not the case.  Had the trade not been made the postseason would have not have a possibility regardless of how bad the Braves played.  K-Mac would not have won 5 games, the bullpen didn’t have a loogy, and they were getting tired.  The Cardinals filled three needs, dump salary, and got rid of a struggling player that has daddy issues.  Also reliever stats can be very skewed during the postseason since the appearances are minimal.  People have to stop examining trades in a vacuum.  There are other factors involved. We have the benefit of hindsight, the trade worked out amazing for the Cardinals and they won the World series because of it.

    Also don’t get me wrong. I am not saying that either team lost in the trade. I am saying that the Cardinals got what they needed to win games. The Jays got what could be a good player as long has he can get his head screwed on straight. I just find it funny when some think that the trade was bad for the Cardinals. It most definitely was not.

  131. nothing wrong with scott downs, he’s one of the best late inning lefties in the league imo.

  132. Lucas Kschischang 3 years ago

    Rasmus at best becomes Corey Patterson?

    Everything you’ve said that was logical, just went straight down the drain.

    Rasmus at best becomes Jim Edmonds.

  133. philliesfan136 3 years ago

    exit stage left sir. thank you

  134. Lucas Kschischang 3 years ago

    Hard to pinpoint Rzep’s, Dotel’s and Patterson’s “upgrade” that they would have offered over what you had.

    E-Jax was the best player you acquired in that deal.

    And yes, letting people know what team you root for on a baseball rumours website, where comments are supposed to be objective and un-biased, isn’t the best of ideas.

  135. Rasmus doesn’t have Jim Edmonds potential.  He doesn’t have the glove or arm that Edmonds had.  And will not get to that level.  I think he has JD Drew potential.

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