We’re bringing back our “Three Needs” series, in which we take a look at the chief issues to be addressed for clubs that have fallen out of contention. We’ll start things up with the Mariners, who opened the season at a sprint before hitting the skids …
[Seattle Mariners Depth Chart]
1. Invest In A Starter Or Two
Seattle’s re-set effort has brought the payroll back under control and added some interesting young talent to the MLB mix. It’d be hard to say this is a club on the cusp of a breakout, but it’s not hard to imagine a major improvement over the 2019 showing.
That said, the rotation is entirely underwhelming. Marco Gonzales has been good, but the club dealt away its only other starter with even one full win above replacement for the season. There’s good reason to give Yusei Kikuchi more time to adjust to the majors; perhaps the club can throw Justus Sheffield into the staff and hope for the best. But slotting in marginal veterans behind openers can only do so much for a team. There’s a dire need for higher-end starting pitching.
With Felix Hernandez hitting the open market, there’s only $75MM and change on the Mariners’ books, with no enormous arbitration salaries to account for. The club shouldn’t rush to spend, but there’s certainly some cash to work with here for an organization that has had season-ending payrolls of over $170MM in each of the past three seasons.
This is a good offseason for a team in this position. The Rangers have scored by giving somewhat aggressive, but ultimately fairly low-risk three-year deals to starters Mike Minor and Lance Lynn. The Twins once did the same with Phil Hughes. That’s a strategy to consider along with the traditional pillow contract. There are quite a few interesting but not reliably dominant starters floating around on the market this coming winter — ranging from Tanner Roark and Dallas Keuchel to Jake Odorizzi and Zack Wheeler. Old friend Wade Miley is out there, along with names like Kyle Gibson, Rick Porcello, Michael Wacha, and Alex Wood.
2. Use Late-Inning Opportunities To Chase Bullpen Upside
The Mariners would like to rebound right back into competitiveness, so they’ll need to try to form an effective bullpen. At the same time, the aim is rather speculative at this point and the existing unit is all but devoid of established players in key late-inning roles, so it’d be foolhardy to spend wildly on veterans.
Therein lies the opportunity for Seattle GM Jerry Dipoto. With high-leverage spots entirely unclaimed, the M’s can dangle that opportunity — along with the prospect of pitching in one of the league’s stingier home parks — as a means of attracting high-upside bullpen talent. Dellin Betances and Arodys Vizcaino (actually a member of the M’s at the moment) are both intriguing possibilities, with a whole host of somewhat older veterans that could be targeted on the cheap.
3. Consider An Infield Upgrade
The M’s have interesting options in the outfield and behind the dish. They’ve also got quite a few possibilities in the 3-through-6 spots, but perhaps also some room to make an upgrade.
On the left side of the infield, Kyle Seager and J.P. Crawford ought to be in line for the bulk of the work. Dylan Moore probably showed enough promise to serve as the reserve there. He can also factor on the right side of the infield, but that’s where there seems to be greater opportunity.
Dan Vogelbach is a piece of the puzzle in the first base/DH mix, but the club clearly prefers to utilize him as a bat-only player and he fell off hard in the second half. It’s anyone’s guess how Ryon Healy will bounce back from his health woes, so he can’t be relied upon. Austin Nola has been a nice surprise, but it would be hard to assume that the career minor-leaguer will hit enough to warrant significant time at first base. Prospect Evan White is on the rise, adding a righty bat to the mix, but it remains to be seen when and how he’ll transition to the majors. And then there’s veteran second bagger Dee Gordon, who is still a useful player but doesn’t seem likely to return to league-average hitting and shouldn’t be trotted out as a regular.
There are two ways to view this assemblage: as a potentially intriguing array of quality parts that can be maximized by deft deployment, or as an underwhelming outfit of unspectacular talent. No doubt the answer lies somewhere in the middle; to some extent, the Mariners will want to find out by testing. But the trouble with mixing and matching is that you can only do so much of it before running into roster limitations.
Adding a true, everyday piece at first or second base — especially if the M’s aren’t totally sold on White’s ability to become such a player in the immediate future — would greatly improve the overall outlook of the Seattle position-player mix. Perhaps the club could pursue Didi Gregorius and move him or Crawford to second base. Maybe the still-youthful Jonathan Schoop is worth a decent investment. The trade market could well be fruitful.
It’s not entirely clear at this stage just how appealing the options will be. And the M’s have a case for holding pat on the whole in the position-player mix. But that’s a nice back-up plan to take into the offseason while pursuing a significant improvement.
mikevm3
You got the wrong Marco Gonzales in the link, that’s the Giants minor leaguer
Jeff Todd
Thanks!
sufferforsnakes
1) Fire the GM
2) Hire a new GM
3) Start all over
bigdaddyhacks
Because taking the farm from 29 -> 4 in ONE offseason is the sign of a bad gm.
dtdt
I think it’s a sign that it’s not that hard to boost your farm system rankings when you trade some of your most marketable assets. Also, baseball america ranked SEA at #11 in their latest update and mlb pipeline did not rank them in their top 10 (mlb.com/news/top-10-farm-systems-in-mlb-c288576958)
I like DiPoto’s recent moves, but he played a big role in putting the Mariners in the hole they’re now digging out of.
jbigz12
The mariners farm was complete trash when he got there. He was trying to win now so he didn’t do them any favors in building it up for most of his tenure but he had little to nothing down there to begin with. To take it from 29th to borderline top 10 is pretty damn good in that period of time.
As for the post, I wouldn’t sign a 2B if I were them. They have Gordon, Moore and Shed Long to play there. No reason to add another guy to that mix
Vizionaire
that is dipdip’s specialty. bust up the farm to get mediocre team and starting to rebuild again.
unreal77
What? How so? Every large contract he has was inherited. He gave Segura an extension and then traded it away. What hole did he put them in? He’s done nothing but try to win with the team he inherited and then finally talked ownership into a much needed re-build.
JoeBrady
I thought he did a great job. Diaz was great, Segura is good, as is Paxton, but it hardly qualifies as a remarkable group. And part of the group’s value was the immense negative value of Cano. And he winds up with:
Kelenic
Dunn
Crawford
Sheffield
That feels like a pretty good return. It’s only the start, but it seems like a good start.
Lennon's Dad
How exactly did Dipoto create that hole? He didn’t sign Cano or any of those massive extensions that bloated payroll and he refused to trade any of his prospects that had high ceilings without huge red flags (keyword: huge. O’Neill, for example, had a glaring kS%).
He inherited a mess that proved to be unfixable by adding to it. He is lucky that ownership allowed a rebuild, though.
BuddyBoy
Wrong
fits65
Jerry just needs one more deal with Brody. With a straight poker face he will fleece the Mets to swipe Noah and another valuable piece for King Felix and another big contract.
Stevil
They also have Nola, Walton, and Lopes.
I wouldn’t anticipate a second baseman this offseason either, but I’m sure they’ll reassess following the 2020 season when guys like Cesar Hernandez and D.J. LeMahieu are available (if they’re still available). Seimen and Simmons are also due to hit free agency then.
dtdt
Clearly, DiPoto didn’t inherit a great situation. But here are some of the players that he did inherit:
Mike Zunino
Chris Taylor
Ketel Marte
Pablo Lopez
Luiz Gohara
Ryan Yarbrough
James Paxton
Freddy Peralta
Tyler Olson(L)
Emilio Pagan
Carson Smith (sure he got hurt, but he was also a reliever coming off a great season and he was turned into Wade Miley which turned into Ariel Miranda)
How many long term pieces did DiPoto acquire by trading these guys? Not many (Haniger, maybe Sheffield, Crawford…)
DiPoto pillaged a subpar farm system in a desperate attempt to compete. Once he stripped away the depth of the system, he started to trade away DSL prospects (whose names few fans would recognize), but who could have provided the internal improvement a farm system needs. He never took the team to the playoffs, but hey he scored an extension, so I guess it was a success for him. Now the M’s are hoping to compete in 2011…
AngelDiceClay
He traded a lot veterans for minor league talent. How could it get worse
Gmen777
They need to do something soon. It’s been nearly 20 years since they’ve made the playoffs
Vandals Took The Handles
OK, there’s that….
But the GM leads the league in trades and signings so he’s the darling of the Internet sports sites reporting rumors.
The man made a trade last year while he was in the hospital! Talk about legendary accomplishments!!
What’s more important – discussing statistics and projected statistics from new bodies, or giving the fans a winning team? Anyone can serve a steak. It’s the sizzle that many fans want…..especially those that don’t actually watch the games.
Dogbone
Not much mention of help from within. That’s unfortunate. I wish this franchise well, however to avoid being stuck in mediocrity, I think they need to go into a full rebuild. At least this ownership is likely to supplement the rebuild with investment while the process goes forward. Unlike a few others.
Vizionaire
fire dipdip first.
keysox
Trade Dipoto for Rick Hahn straight up.
Two worst GMs in baseball. Pirate guy also in team picture.
fits65
Leading the pack is Brody who didn’t do his homework before the trades in the winter. So he effectively blocked top talent at first and second with dumb trades and signings.
zoinksscoob
Dipoto is already on record saying that the M’s will not be playing at the top end of the free agent market this winter. That means names like Keuchel, Odorizzi, Wheeler, Gregorius, Betances, etc., will not be on their menu. The rest are stopgaps at best. The M’s do need innings-eaters, but what’s out there outside of the top names is dicey at best, especially since most of them don’t fit into the M’s “control the zone” philosophy.
As for the bullpen, one has to wonder whether or not Dipoto purposely put together one of the all-time worst pens in order to secure a better draft pick; at times, it was literally like watching one of those clown cars pull up and one bad reliever after the other would come out. The only saving graces are Tuivailala, Adams, and Bass. Dipoto certainly won’t be shelling out $$$ to shore that up, especially with so many good relievers on the Arkansas roster that are on the verge of coming up. I see the pen being filled with internal options.
Besides, Dipoto doesn’t usually sign free agents anyway; any pitchers will come via one of the countless trades he’ll soon pull off. #TradeDHD
Vandals Took The Handles
Who cares what Dipoto says?
Its’ all about the rumors.
Juicy!
The mecurical teflon guy never follows up anyway. It’s all about turning over the roster every few years. Hope and Change abounds!
jbigz12
The guy who praised Brodie Van Wagenen up and down for the show he’s put on in NY hates DiPoto? Do you know how asinine that is. Brodie has started his NY tenure like Jerry Did in Seattle. The only difference is that Brodie had a couple very good prospects to trade away. I hope you’re salty or a Mets homer. Maybe a bit of both. Because if you aren’t; this is a pretty awful take.
terry g
Under #1 starters, I would add any starter with a QO. Dipoto is highly unlikely to give up a draft pick at this stage. In fact, I highly doubt he reinvests much cash at all this year. He’ll stick to trades and will spent the year evaluating what he has and trading for more pieces of the puzzle..
2021, seems more like the year he’s aiming for.
24TheKid
Shed Long will be at second next year.
throwinched10
By 2021, the rotation should consist of Gonzales, Sheffield, Dunn, Kikuchi, and Gilbert.
The offense should have Kelenic, Lewis, Long, Rizzo, Fraley, Crawford, and White everyday. Haniger, Smith, Santana, and Vogelbach may be there as well.
There will be trades and signings in between but their timeline is 2021 for a consistently competitive team that also has the financial flexibility to sign a significant upgrade where applicable
Vandals Took The Handles
lol
You’re killing me.
You’re projecting what a portion of a Dipoto team will contain in two years?
Go back to the end of the 2017 season and look at the articles and posts speculating on what the 2019 team would look like.
throwinched10
I am going off of the fact that they want to bring this prospect wave up together. There will obviously be trades and some of those guys may not be there but based on what they have said I would guess that Kelenic, Dunn, Sheffield, Crawford, Gilbert, Kikuchi, Lewis, and Long will be kept together.
zak1
Add in Julio Rodriguez. Vogel will be traded by then because he has no position and Santana will become DH
Slothcliff Hokum
I think they are probably going to take more time to sort out the keepers from those they’ll trade or cut. Once they have a better idea of what makes up their actual core, then is when we’ll see some free agent signings in an attempt to augment things. As a long-suffering fan, I have hope that things are going to get better, due in part to the increased quality of the minor league system. They now have a fair amount of talent in AA and A ball, but a good number of those kids might not be ready to make a positive impact for a year or two, or three. The organization has been enthusiastic about keeping the good group of prospects together (AA) to help them build a winning culture as a group. That’s all well and good, but in the meantime I hope the Mariners will invest in a few decent relievers and possibly someone to anchor their rotation, so these youngsters might have a better chance to be winners at the major league level as well. I’d rather see them start the core augmentation start sooner than later.
drfelix
Sorry for the long post, in advance, but it may be worth a read:
Dipoto inherited one of the worse farm systems, while at the same time inherited aging vets with inflated contracts (ie: Cano, Felix, etc). The 1st two years he attempted to focus on transitioning our offense to high OBP players, and got within a few games of the playoffs while doing that … But “ALL” our SP’s couldn’t stay off the DL for those 2 years. Then …
We had the Houston Astro dilemma with all their top prospects hitting the scene the second they transferred to the AL West from the NL. Knowing we couldn’t even compete and touch the Atros, Dipoto literally had to make a decision last offseason to trade these aging high priced vets to lower payroll, and focus entirely on rebuilding the Farm System. He took our Farm System from #26 to #10 at the beginning of this season. Then after the Draft, MLB Farm Systems were re-ranked, and some rankings have Seattle at #5 now after the MLB Draft. Then, we had the International Draft, and from what I’ve been hearing, Seattle did exceptional in the Int’l Draft too, but I’m waiting to see our “new” rankings which I haven’t seen yet after that Int’l Draft.
A few key notes that I really like with our Farm System now:
1) When Dipoto arrived we had ZERO OF prospects that even had a chance at MLB. Now? Dipoto has landed Haniger/Lewis (2018 R1 Pick)/Julio Rodriguez (5 Tool OF)/Kelenic. I’m literally drooling waiting to see these 4 man our OF! That would be the best Offensive/Defensive OF in all MLB!
2) Evan White #1 Defensive 1B, has pop & can outright hit. But he’s NOT going to be that 35-40 HR 1B power guy.
3) 2B Shed Long’s got power, but will continue on his Defense. Gordon will be traded this offseason to make room for Long @ 2B.
4) SS Crawford. Amazing SS defender, and can outright hit too.
5) Catcher? Navarez/Murphy Combined for 40+ HRs so far…Is there another Catcher Duo in MLB that has done that? PLUS, we have Cal Raleigh gonna be ready for a call-up in mid-2020 too, who is an outright Catching stud hitter and defensively.
Farm Weakness is 3B and pitching. Did you notice what Dipoto did in the 2019 draft? Checkout all his picks. He loaded up on Pitching, Pitching & more PITCHING! Oh, and our #5 pick was the best 3B prospect he could get, but 3B Shenton has been doing great amazing this Summer and has surprised even me…but he won’t be ready until 2022 at the earliest. So I expect Dipoto to land another 3B prospect via trade (maybe from a Gordon trade).
So I personally DO NOT want to see Dipoto trade Seager away and eat any more salary. Lets keep Seager and let his contract run out, then in 2022 3B Shenton will be ready to go, or someone else.
With all the moving of players, comes moving of a large portion of their salary too. Our 2020 committed contracts for next year is NOW under $80M.
2020 Dipoto will let these prospects play out and work on chemistry working together. Mariner Brass has already given Dipoto a green light to splurge on a TOR Ace SP for 2021. I personally think Seattle should go out and splurge on Cole this offseason, and give him 1 add’l year than any other team … THEN … after 2020 aggressively add another TOR SP (the best available). After doing this come 2021, we would still be $50-60M less than our 2017 & 2018 payroll was!!! But doing this would take the pressure off guys like Sheffield/Dunn/Kikuchi. I don’t think Seattle will invest in an Ace SP this offseason, but I think they should to prepare for 2021, and then grab another next offseason too. “If” Sheffield/Dunn/Kikuchi/Gilbert/etc truly impress once called up?! Then Seattle could technically trade away one of these 2 high priced Aces they signed and use that to restock the Farm in a few years, without impacting the rest of a competitive team.
So I commend Dipoto and what he’s accomplished, from what he’s inherited!
IjustloveBaseball
I think Seattle could experience one of the biggest turnarounds in 2020. They still have quality and proven talent on the roster in terms of position players, and if a player like Crawford takes the next step, that group will be even better.
In some ways the Mariners off-season will be simple–all they really need is pitching like this article stressed. Maybe guys like Sheffield and Dunn step up in 2020 and become factors. Nonetheless, there are options out their other than the top arms that could help. Maybe they go after one of the guys mentioned above, or maybe they hit with a couple flier/rebound types. There’s clearly quite a few if’s with this club, but I don’t see them as completely hopeless.
Stevil
Understanding the timeline for contention helps explain what is likely and unlikely this offseason. I think we can rule out free agent signings with a QO attached and high-priced relievers. Guys like Delaplane, Mills, Warren, and Gerber are probably going to get a hard look before Jerry commits to significant external options for the ‘pen.
Most of the key prospects, such as Gilbert, Dunn, White, Kelenic, and maybe even Rodriguez, are another year or so away. Some are a little closer, such as Sheffield, Long, and Lewis, but they could all arguably benefit from a little more time in the minors. So, it should be mostly stop-gaps for 2o2o, then more significant spending the following offseason and in 2022. Stalling another year would give them a chance to assess a number of prospects and target potential external options.
That said, I’d like to see them identify a catcher immediately. It shouldn’t be Narvaez. There are too many young hurlers integrating over the next two years, some of which have command or control issues. They need a real mentor and Omar isn’t that guy. I suspect they’ll gut it out with him, though.
Gordon is going to be shopped. Smith and Santana might be shopped as well. Jerry will be listening to offers on most of his outfielders, but it’s hard to see him bringing in anyone from the outside to address any need other than on a short-term basis.
Vandals Took The Handles
Seriously….
The Japanese starter that Dipoto signed last off-season to great fanfare and publicity, looks like an extremely overpaid #4 starter.
I skimmed at least a dozen glowing articles about him here last winter. Had some real doubts. Saw the kid pitch for parts of 3 or 4 games. OK he wasn’t totally awful.
_
Age 28. Made 30 starts. 5.46 ERA in 151 innings so far. 0.5 WAR.
Got paid $9.5m. Due $32m in the next 2 years (lol). Option for 4 years at $62m.
_
Annibal Sanchez is getting a generous $19m from the Nationals for 2019-20. Less then Kikuchi is getting.
Sanchez – 28 starts. 3.86 ERA in 154 innings so far. 3.3 WAR.
_
Scott Boras is a genius. If he represented the check-out clerk at my local market, she’d be getting paid $200k a year working a 28 hour week, with the summer off, and 8 weeks of sick days.
Stevil
Kikuchi isn’t bust, though. He’s flashed potential, he’s just been incredibly inconsistent. Is that because of the slicker and likely juiced baseballs? The horrible framing and defense of Narvaez? The experience of a new country, team and league, plus the death of his father and birth of his son?
It’s probably a little bit of everything. But this was a year to experiment, so results aren’t necessarily that important. They will be in 2021 or 2022, though.
Vandals Took The Handles
“Kikuchi isn’t bust, though. He’s flashed potential, he’s just been incredibly inconsistent.”
Stevill;
That’s exactly what busts are before they’re recognized as busts.
Stevil
Because talented players never have bad first years and rebound?
He was exactly the kind of pitcher Seattle needed to sign. He still has number 2 or 3 potential, doesn’t cost a fortune and didn’t cost them a pick.
If it doesn’t work out, so be it. He isn’t making front-line kind of dough and doesn’t have a long-term commitment that hinders payroll.
I can think of far worse deals out there.
jbigz12
Sanchez is also 7 years older. I’m glad you were first on the Kikuchi was going to be garbage train but the M’s weren’t the only team in on him. More than a few teams saw an in his prime mid rotation starter. Your buddy Scott also got Gio Gonzalez roughly nothing and then got fired. I wouldn’t blow him just yet. Gio and Anibal were probably closer comps anyhow. Mid 30’s mid-backend arms.
jonnyzuck
hitting, fielding and pitching ?
sascoach2003
I coached the Nola boys in HS, and wonder what the local take is on Austin? He’s been a “Swiss army knife “, and has amassed good stats, and decent WAR over a third of the season, but wondering if he fits into the Ms plans for next year, 2021? Hard to get news from Seattle in Louisiana!
Stevil
Hey sascoach
When Seattle signed Nola to a minor-league deal, I took notice. He didn’t look like “filler”. He intrigued me immediately. Plays all the infield positions AND catches? Yes, thank you.
Though a little old for the minors, he was doing a lot of things right. He’s shown excellent discipline and he has been consistent. He was one of the PCL leaders this season before his eventual promotion and his catching is more than passable. Scott Servais has praised his glove-work as well. I was eager to see him get an opportunity and I believe he’s a better backstop than Narvaez, though he has been used far more at second and first.
The word around Seattle seems to be that he can and will be a solid utility player. He could be the starting first or second baseman on opening day, but is most likely to end up as a role player.
I think he absolutely fits into the 2021 plans. It helps that he’s a RHH as well.
sascoach2003
Hey, I appreciate the response. He did play all over the diamond, and I got to talk with him a lot last year when he was in New Orleans and I made a few trips down there. The catching thing is nothing new, but he hadn’t donned the “tools of ignorance” since high school. Thanks again for the insight.
mlbfan
The Mariners need to be looking toward 2021. They need SP, SP, and SP. The rest will sort itself out. Nola at second will be fine. Lewis or Fraley in left field, Haniger in rf or cf. Santana in rf or at dh.
mmarinersfan
How did you go through almost the entire list of infield options, and not mention the one that’s actually going to be starting at 2nd next year, Shed Long?
Stevil
Who were you responding to, mmarinersfan? Everyone with a rant, including my own, cited Long.
But Long may not be starting at 2B next year. The original plan was to use him in a utility role. He split his non-IL time in AAA between 3B and 2B, and he’s been playing a lot of LF since his call-up (obviously because of Gordon’s presence).
He may get a look there next year, but I don’t think there’s a definitive plan yet. Move Gordon first, see how Long progresses defensively, then make a decision.