The Cardinals and Marlins have held “at least preliminary” discussions regarding Miami’s bevy of young starters, Ken Rosenthal of The Athletic reports. Rosenthal suggests that St. Louis is a nice fit for Pablo Lopez, although on paper, it’s easy enough to make a case for just about any of the Marlins’ available starters as a fit in St. Louis. Each of Lopez, Jesus Luzardo, Trevor Rogers and Edward Cabrera has seen his name surface in trade chatter recently. Miami, however, doesn’t seem to have any plans to deal ace Sandy Alcantara, whom the Cardinals actually traded to the Fish alongside Zac Gallen in the deal that sent Marcell Ozuna from Miami to St. Louis.
The Cardinals have a solid-looking rotation on the surface, with each of Jordan Montgomery, Miles Mikolas, Adam Wainwright, Steven Matz and Jack Flaherty likely to slot into the starting five. Depth options behind the group include Dakota Hudson, Jake Woodford, Matthew Liberatore, Zack Thompson and Andre Pallante, although the latter two did well in a bullpen setting in 2022. Further down the line are prospects Gordon Graceffo, Michael McGreevy and Tink Hence, although none of that group is on the 40-man roster just yet.
All that said, however, the Cards could lose nearly their entire rotation after the season. Wainwright is set to retire, while each of Mikolas, Montgomery and Flaherty are free agents next winter. Only Matz, whose four-year contract covers the 2022-25 seasons, is signed or controlled beyond the current season.
In that sense, there’s good reason for the Cards to pursue a starter who can be controlled through at least the 2024 season. There’s surely some internal hope that someone like Liberatore, Graceffo or McGreevy can step up and seize a rotation spot when an opportunity inevitably presents itself this season, but that’s a lot to bank on. And, even if that happens, the Cards would still be looking at multiple rotation spots they need to fill next offseason — perhaps as many as three.
Lopez, 27 in March, has a 3.52 ERA over his past 340 big league innings and is arbitration-eligible through the 2024 campaign. Luzardo, even younger at 25, enjoyed a nice bounceback year in 2022 when he notched a 3.32 ERA and 30% strikeout rate, but a forearm injury limited him to just 100 1/3 innings. He’s under team control through 2026. That’s the same amount of club control as the 25-year-old Rogers, a 2021 Rookie of the Year finalist who stumbled to a 5.47 ERA in 107 frames in 2022, his second full MLB campaign. The 24-year-old Cabrera, meanwhile, has six full years of club control remaining and notched a 3.01 ERA in 71 2/3 innings in 2022.
None of that bunch is expensive, with Lopez’s $5.45MM salary leading the way. Finances shouldn’t play a major consideration for the Cardinals anyhow; they’re on pace to roughly match last year’s $163MM payroll, and president of baseball ops John Mozeliak had previously indicated the ability to increase payroll. From Miami’s vantage point, their projected $103MM payroll would be the second-highest mark in club history.
The Marlins are known to be seeking improvements to their lineup and have been prioritizing center field and catcher dating back to last offseason. Miami swung a trade for Pittsburgh catcher Jacob Stallings prior to the 2022 season but saw the former Gold Glove winner turn in a disappointing .233/.292/.292 batting line while his typically high-end defensive grades also cratered. Center field remains an unaddressed need, and Miami again appears likely to take someone better suited for a corner (Bryan De La Cruz) and hope for the best this season.
The Cardinals, meanwhile, are deep in outfielders with Tyler O’Neill, Dylan Carlson and Lars Nootbaar likely lined up left-to-right at the MLB level. (Rosenthal suggests that of the bunch, Nootbaar is the least likely to change hands.) Top prospect Jordan Walker, who’s likely all but off limits in trade talks, looms behind that group. Alec Burleson, meanwhile, has already gotten some MLB experience, and fellow outfielder Moises Gomez posted big numbers in the upper minors. Behind the plate, the Cards have well-regarded catching prospect Ivan Herrera, who doesn’t exactly have a clear path to a regular role now that Willson Contreras has been signed to a five-year deal.
Certainly, the Cards and Marlins seem to have aligning needs that could lead to a trade, but there’s also no indication that talks are particularly heated. Miami has likely discussed its available starters with more than half the league, given the dearth of viable big league options elsewhere on the trade market. Even the Cards and Marlins themselves don’t know whether a deal will ultimately come together at this juncture, but it’s nevertheless of some note that the two parties have at least held some surface-level talks.
NickGarren
when your farm system is barren… that’s how the Cards stay contending. Find a team desperate to get rid of a player and then pounce. So know the Fish will give the Deadbirds 3 starters for their rotation.
Clepto_
This might be the dumbest comment I have read today….on two fronts, yet what baffles me more, are the two idiots that upvoted this.
Wow.
Deadguy
Its still legal to be stupid, just not do stupid things…
Clepto_
By your logic, it should be illegal to upvote stupid comments, and I agree. Bring back the downvote.
brodie-bruce
yes please bring back the downvote, then again if that happens we might hurt someone’s feelings and we all would have to spend a weekend doing sensitivity training.
mrperkins
I don’t get it. If the Cardinals system is always barren then how do folks say Mo is awful for trading away so many players? The Cardinals draft well and produce more than their fair share of major leaguers. They have a solid farm system now with 5-6 top 100’s with Jordan Walker headlining the group. Try to keep your trolling to something that is not so easily refutable.
Win Cor
Arenado aside…The trades have not amounted in much and Mo has traded a slew of great productive talent away. By far the cardinals have the best farm system for MLB ready players. Just look… it seems almost every MLB team has a former Cardinal doing pretty good.
Given that, the Cardinals are not trading any of those guys listed to the Marlins.
iH8PaperStraws
Who they trade away end up being decent, who they won’t trade end up being merely average or below. That’s the problem.
themed
So Arenado and Goldy hasn’t meant much in trades huh lol
StlSwifty
I think two trades make sense.
Dylan Carlson for Edward Cabrera.
Tyler O’Neill for Pablo Lopez.
Only one of them should happen, but I’d be happy making either trade. I think both teams win.
iH8PaperStraws
Arenado was a salary dump of a 30 year old player with a possible Colors field affect. and Arizona knew they weren’t going to be able to resign Goldschmidt after the season, who was 31 at the time.The Goldschmidt deal looked like a potential loss in the trade after the first year as well. Yes, he gets credit for the deals, but let’s not pretend there was a huge market for the players either.
themed
I’ll bet most teams in baseball would have loved to have had either one of those 3 guys. Not much of a market? Lol MVP’s are hard to find. Get real!
iH8PaperStraws
Remind me, was it Arenado or Goldschmidt who won the MVPs before coming to St Louis? You don’t think if the Rockies could have gotten better than Austin Gomber for Arenado plus cash they wouldn’t have taken it?
brodie-bruce
@guest678 ignore themed most of the time he spews so much nonsense that most cards fans just shake there heads. as a die hard cards fan myself the nolan deal was more of what can we get out of this player who isn’t happy before he opts out and get a lotto ticket more than a salary dump. i would agree on the salary dump if the rockies didn’t throw stupid money at bryant, then again who the (bleep) knows what that fo/ownership is doing, tbh the rockies seem to be that team always chasing there tail
Riontyler
“but let’s not pretend there was a huge market for the players either”
Someone needs to reboot this bot.
Bounty Hunters IA
Agree 100%. Barren farm system yet somehow they find suckers to trade with. I don’t know why anyone would ever trade with that putrid cheating franchise in east Missouri
brodie-bruce
@milff i can’t tell if your being serious or facetious, either way i think why a lot of our prospects are sought after isn’t because of there “sexy” ratings but most of them turn out to be decent mlb players. tbh i think a lot of it has to do with our philosophy and how we pick players that match it or how we develop them coming up. as a cards fan other than what i stated above i can’t think of any other reason than what i stated above that we pick so many guys that turn out to be decent mlb players other than luck and you can’t be that lucky over 20 years, we pick near the bottom every year but turn out decent talent and from what i can remember we also don’t have a lot of guys in the top 100 much less top 25.
iH8PaperStraws
Every team produces league average journeymen. The Cardinals are not special in that regard. Some teams cash them in while there still may be value and other teams like the cardinals ride them until they don’t have any left. Cardinal fans just fall in love with the scrappy hustle guys or anyone with shoulder length hair, while other team’s fans reject those players for being meh.
brodie-bruce
@guest678 i don’t speak for all cards fans but most of us fall in “love” with the “scrappy” guys is because they work hard and fight tooth and nail everyday just to be in the lineup. the stl metro area is mostly a blue collar area where we go in and work our butts off and we appreciate when guys make what we ever dream of making working like us
iH8PaperStraws
You don’t have to tell me about the STL area. I’ve lived there for more than 40 years. I will agree they have the best fans in baseball but I will also say they have some of the least baseball knowledge as fans as well. I travel a lot and see a lot of games out of town with the cardinals and without. There are Lot of people in Saint Louis who will tell you they love {insert any cardinals player} and we’re at a game the last week. but then they have absolutely no clue who clue who Ty France or Byron Buxton or Micheal Harris or Nestor Cortez are. I also don’t necessarily agree with your assessment of the area. It’s extremely have and have not. Very white collar or on unemployment until you get out into the more rural areas.
brodie-bruce
@guest678 it’s hard to argue your view point about the stl area it does seem like either your have or a not. with that being said i’ll admit i’m most likely biased to the “blue collar” mentality and the blue collar history of the area. i’m union carpenter my dad was one my grandpa was a union iron worker, the one thing we all have in common is that until the day we retired or passed we kept working to keep what we worked for and a lot of guys still do at least in construction. i also see where your coming from and it seems stl is becoming more have and have not which is sad because growing up in the stl area and they way i was raised, you want a nice life you have to go out an earn it. this is the last i will say about this because i don’t this thread to get off the rails and become something that’s not talking bb
iH8PaperStraws
I have fellow season ticket holder friends who have no idea who Yordan Alvarez or Kyle Tucker are. They just like going to the stadium. But they know all the Cardinal players and think the world of every one of them.
brodie-bruce
@guest678 damn and here the last few years i thought i was a bad bb fan not really keeping up, (i try keeping up with mlb but with work/life hard to find the time) but i even heard of them guys, then again if i can’t watch the games i at least try to read up and follow what i can outside of the cards, the ignorance of some fellow cards fans always amazes me, wish bernie was still on 101 and writing for the post, he’s a fan of the cards but also took the glasses off and was honest about the team which made the homers mad because he was honest and told it like it is
RobM
One of many who will inquire. Someone will win.
stymeedone
Is there really any team, at this point in the off season, that hasn’t had a discussion with the Marlins? Every one knows they want to trade starting pitching for offense, and every team wants more starting pitching. With Spring Training so close, most teams will likely wait to see who’s healthy before making trades.
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
More trades should be happening now.
CardsFan57
Expanded playoffs makes it easier and safer to wait until the season starts. This may become the norm for trades.
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
Do you think there may be early season trades now? I don’t recall too many other than the Carlos Santana one last year, and even that was at the end of June.
CardsFan57
I think it depends on how the players on a particular team are playing. Contending teams will make a trade if a need pops early. I think the Cardinals will wait until the deadline if they are in first place in the Central. They have a lot of young players that need to improve their trade value by having success on the field. I can see up to 3 outfielders and 1 DH type being traded. All have an upside they haven’t yet shown at the MLB level, Gorman is the DH type. The Cardinals have 7 young outfielders with good potential. 2 or 3 will go at some point.
JockStrap
Fish: We want Cases
Bloom: your starters are only worth my to 30th prospect.
JockStrap
i hate auto fill…..
LosPobres1904
I got rid of aut correct fill and only lasted a day it turns out I’m too lazy to spell a whole word.
Bo Hart's Biggest Fan
Herrera and Burleson for anybody but Rogers. Hell, want Flaherty too?
watup0100
Could you see walker included in a deal where you get two SP back? I’m guessing only if it included alcantara? Is Gorman expendable at this point?
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
It would take way more than Jordan Walker to deal for Alcantara.
frontdeskmike
Agreed, but I think both sides would pass.
Win Cor
Never happen.
Big whiffa
Walker is the top prospect in baseball. Worthy of an Alcantara centerpiece. Both teams be wise to consider as Marlins aren’t going anywhere anytime soon and stl needs an ace
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
Let’s be realistic, though. I mean Profar was a number prospect in baseball and all he could get was rentals of Greinke, Upton, Carlos Gonzalez, Hamels, and others. No prospect is ever worth that much. He hasn’t even reached AAA yet. They would need way way more. He is the Juan Soto of pitchers, but cheaper, better, and more controllable.
iH8PaperStraws
What media has Walker the top prospect in all of baseball? Every outlet I see has either Gunner Henderson or Francisco Alvarez as number overall and Walker in the 5-10 range.
CardsFan57
I don’t see Walker being traded for anyone.
RyanD44
Dylan Carlson for Pablo Lopez seems like a win for both sides
Bo Hart's Biggest Fan
Who plays CF in StL at that point? T-Flex?
RyanD44
I believe Mr. Goodbar can play CF
Bo Hart's Biggest Fan
I think I’d rather O’neill play it to be honest. Not that Lars can’t but I think Tyler’s speed plays better out there…. plus at least then we can get some defensive value out of him – we’re not getting squat from his bat anymore.
iH8PaperStraws
Yes. Tyler O’Niel is already the best CF on the team and reports are he has been working on his conditioning to be able to take the role coming out of spring training. Carlson is expendable, even though the GM is too full of himself to admit it.
Win Cor
Pablo and 2 other guys
kripes-brewers
Meh, the Cards are silent but deadly. One or two of their kids will win a spot out of spring training and play out of their minds most of the year. That’s just the way they do it.
Holy Cow!
However, the stench of their flatulence fades away in the postseason.
bighiggy
Honestly I’d take a gorman/liberatore/herrera for Lopez and Rogers. Stick rogers in the pen this year. Rumor has it the Dodgers want carlson. I’d trade carlson and hicks to the Dodgers for pages and another top 15 organizational prospect.
CardsFan57
Teams should keep anyone the Dodgers are interested in. They have some top evaluators. I don’t see Carlson going anywhere. He can play center and will hit when healthy. He had wrist issues last year and still posted league average offense. He’s only 24 this year. I want them to give him this year to prove his worth.
iH8PaperStraws
I believe your going to be highly disappointed. Carlson has played two full seasons and has over 1,200 MLB at bats. You can buy I to the injury excuse all you want, but the reality is, he is just another Steven Piscotty.
CardsFan57
Do you realize that neither Arenado or Goldschmidt had a good season before 24 years old? Carlson hit at every level of the minors. He needs a chance.
Talleywhacker
GUEST- Agreed. I think Oneill is our center fielder of the future. If they can deal Carlson and get something in return I think they will. I believe his name was offered up in the trade discussions with the As as well. He is expendable to the FO
CardsFan57
That big body of O’Neil won’t last if he starts playing center full time.
iH8PaperStraws
You may want to go take another look at his minor league stats. It’s fair to say he did not hit well 2016-2018. His 2019 numbers were good. Inflated by the PCL but still good.
Goldschmidts first full year was at age 24 because he wasn’t drafted until 2009. He had a really good year that year and every year thereafter until 2019
Carlson has played two full seasons already. He had a slightly above average year in 2021 , inflated by his ability to walk and a forgettable year in 2022. If you want to say he was brought up too early, I’ll listen. But the fact remains he was brought up, has played two years and hasn’t really ever flashed signs of greatness. I don’t see it in him. The hype that was push about him by the organization doesn’t do him any favors either. In more that 1,200 MLB at bats I haven’t seen one thing that would warrant a GM saying “they’ll have to pry him from my cold dead hands” when asked about if he would be available in any trades, much less being a non starter for Juan Soto. Maybe that’s not fair, but it’s what the Cardinals sell the fans so it is what it is and Carlson is not it.
iH8PaperStraws
Let’s see what he looks like coming into spring training. Reports say he’s added more distance running, less bulk for more reps in his lifting.
CardsFan57
Nice of you to ignore May and June of last year before the wrist injury. He slugged over .500 with an OPS close to .900. He was building on the 2021 season until the wrist injury. After his wrist injury things got worse and worse on the season. I ignore 2020 because he was 21 years old and on the MLB club only because there was nowhere else he could play. I don’t get why so many fans have completely given up on a young player that many other teams are eager to aquire.
iH8PaperStraws
Let’s also not forget the .488 OPS over his first 84 PAs in March and April. If an injury makes you that bad, then you shouldn’t be playing. Otherwise your numbers are what they say you are and he doesn’t pass the eyeball test either. There is nothing about him to get excited over. He was over promised and that’s not his fault, but it is what it is.
CardsFan57
Did you seriously just say that you shouldn’t be in the majors if a wrist injury affects your hitting? I’m not responding to that. It is too absurb.
iH8PaperStraws
Yes. If there is an injury that is making you play below replacement level, then yes you should be on the IL, giving the ABs to someone who can actually contribute. Otherwise, it’s not an excuse.
Wagner>Cobb
I think Pablo Lopez would be very successful in St. Louis. It seems like his profiles lines up well there. Plus they’d have him for two years. The Cardinals’ rotation for ’24 is virtually barren. The only “guaranteed” name at this point is Matz.
This one belongs to the Reds
I’m sure they are talking with a lot of teams.
C Yards Jeff
Another team talking to Miami about SP. Geez. How does Ng keep up with it all? My head would’ve exploded by now.
Four4fore
Cabrera for Cabrera win win.
Yankee Clipper
Just curious for the Cards fans on here:
What’s your opinion(s) on the availability of Carlson or Donovan for trade? Also, what a reasonable return, in your opinion, for either or both out of the Yankees system. I ask because I’ve heard those two names floated and curious as to the viability of a trade. Thanks.
Wagner>Cobb
Would not be interested in trading either one. Carlson’s value is low, and his wrist injury last year should be healed, so a big year could be on the horizon. Donovan is super valuable. He’s a versatile defender/impact bat/on-base machine.
I’d be more interested in a package around Gorman. We have several versions of him.
The only real need for St. Louis is a front-end starter. The only one even remotely available/interesting in New York is Cortes, and they obviously aren’t trading him. I don’t think the two teams have a fit anymore.
Yankee Clipper
Okay, that’s makes sense. Thanks for the information.
Ol’ Uncle Charlie
Too early to be considering trading Gorman, at this point, unless a monster deal presents itself.
His ceiling is still high and he did fine last year despite being in the bigs sooner than he should have. I expect good things from him, and a second baseman with pop isn’t easy to find. He’s a good athlete and he made some really nice defensive plays last year. He’ll always be bat-first, but I’m excited about him.
Donovan is a really good player, but he’s the only in-house guy to take Gorman’s spot if Gorman is traded.
I want to see what the first half of the season brings for Carlson, Gorman, Noot and O’Neil before letting them go. The time to move at least one of them may be soon, but not yet.
Pitching will be the trade priority soon, but the trade deadline is the time to pounce, IMHO.
Go Cards!
Noah H.
I’d personally hate to see the team trade either of them. But I get the feeling that the team would be open to trading Carlson for the right return (although I’m unclear on exactly what that would be be). Donovan on the other hand would appear to be off the table. I’m sure package could change that, but it would probably require significant return to make it happen.
With that said, I’m not totally buying the commonly reported view that the Cardinals have excess of outfield depth they’re looking to trade. While the team seems more open about the possibility of trading Carlson at than they did at the deadline last year I still don’t think they fully trust Nootbaar or O’Neill as everyday center fielders. For that reason I have a hard time seeing them parting with Carlson until one of the other two proves themselves. I also don’t see them trading O’Neill his value is at its lowest. They’ll give every chance to rebound this season first. And Nootbaar would seem to be truly untouchable right now. They seem convinced that he is headed for a break season right now. That just leaves Burleson and Gomez, neither of which have actually proved themselves at the major league level yet. While I’m sure they would trade either of them I don’t think that’s what most teams are looking for right now. Now by the time the trade deadline rolls around though I could see any number of these guys being traded if Walker has established himself as an everyday player.
As for Donovan, as much as I like the guys, it seems like now would be the time to trade him if they were going to trade him. I don’t see his value getting any higher. But the Cardinals seem more inclined hold on to him and hope he can repeat his rookie season.
Wagner>Cobb
I think if they make a deal, it will center around guys like Gorman, Yepez, and/or Burleson. They’re all kind of expendable due to what the team has.
Matz is here next year regardless. They will probably extend one of Mikolas/Montgomery/Flaherty. Hopefully they trade for Lopez or someone else who is at least a #2, if not a #1. That leaves two more spots open in ’24. It will be very interesting to see how they proceed.
Noah H.
Agreed, I think all three of those guys are available. But at this point I don’t think any of the three would fetch the kind of return they’d need to get the pitching help they need. So they probably all stick around to the trade deadline. The question might be is if any of them get hot will they still be available? If Gorman is on pace for 30+ home runs in July would the team still trade him for a year and half of Lopez? I’m not sure.
I do think they resign Mikolas this spring. At least that would be the smart move given how thin the free agent class is going to be next year. Montgomery is a toss up. My guess is they see how works with new pitching coach this spring maybe we see a mid-season extension. Flaherty probably goes to free agency unless he just has a change of heart and decides he wants to make a team friendly deal (although I don’t know why he could be among the top free agents if he pitches well this season).
That still leaves the Cardinals needing to fill half the rotation internally next season though. That seems wildly hopeful so I’m going to guess that the team has to make a move at the deadline to either add a cost controlled pitcher or make trade in the off-season next year. My guess is that decision will largely be driven by need. If the rotation is still holding up in July they’ll wait. If it’s not then they’ll make the move (but probably not the one fans want).
Wagner>Cobb
Yeah, none of Gorman, Yepez, or Burelson could be a solo name for Lopez. But some combination that includes Liberatore/Gomez/Hudson/Herrera or others could make it happen.
Mikolas is the most obvious and likely extension candidate. My money is on him. I think Monty will be able to fetch more than St. Louis wants to give him. And Flaherty is really only coming back if there’s some scenario that involves him accepting a QO to improve his stock.
Personally, I would like to see them roll with Lopez, Mikolas, and Matz as the core of the rotation. Hopefully Graceffo is the real deal and holds the #5 spot. I do think they make a significant FA signing next offseason. Nola is ideal, but I doubt Philly lets him get away. Same goes with Urias. I think Giolito could be a solid addition (I expect him to bounce back this year). I guess Snell could be a good option, but he’s looked very inconsistent over the last few years.
1. Nola/Urias/Giolito/Snell
2. Lopez
3. Mikolas
4. Matz
5. Graceffo
Pretty good. Great if you end up with Nola/Urias, though those moves are unlikely. Obviously Giolito and Snell are not necessarily #1’s, but I put them there for organization’s sake.
Yankee Clipper
Cool, Noah, thanks for that rundown. Honestly, I really like O’Neill too. I know he was injured and I’m assuming that probably hindered his performance last season, but everything you wrote makes complete sense from the Cards perspective.
I have heard suggestions that the Cards may trade from OF “depth” which is what’s spawned the conversation in Yankees universe about whom they would be willing to part with. Nootbaar would be awesome, but I agree, he’s probably untouchable right now. In fact, I would go as far to as to say certain players here may command as much return as Reynolds, or close thereto (Donovan/Noot).
Plus, Yankees really need a switch-hitter or lefty and you all seem to have quite a few too, so the desire from our side is even greater. With as stingy as Cashman is with the prospects I don’t see a deal coming together for any of them. It’s fun to dream though….
Noah H.
I’ve thought for a long time that O’Niell would look good in a Yankees uniform. While I don’t see him getting trade this off season I do think he probably gets traded at the deadline or in the off season next year to clear a permanent spot for Walker. It only makes sense that the team would move him before Carlson since Carlson is still cost controled for the foreseeable future.
CardsFan57
I look for the Cardinals to make trades after May once some of their candidates prove themselves. Right now they would be selling low on most of them.
iH8PaperStraws
O’Neil has 80+ inning in CF with a perfect fielding percentage. He’ll handle CF just fine this year.
brodie-bruce
@yc me personally i would be interested in one of your ss prospects but that won’t happen carson value is low atm and donovan is an important piece to the cards. plus neither cash or mo are going to come off there top prospects to get a deal done unless mo has some dirt somewhere on cash.
Wagner>Cobb
The Yanks have some fun SS prospects, but Masyn Winn’s success so far would make me unwilling to meet what would likely be an astronomical asking price.
brodie-bruce
trust me i know, but how many years has it been that we have had a black hole at ss and have yet to fix it. tommy plays ss well but i’d rather he be back at 2nd where he is a gg and get a real ss that can play d as well. this mix and match bs doesn’t help make a solid infield d.
Wagner>Cobb
One could argue that Winn has a higher ceiling than any of the NY SS prospects though.
Yankee Clipper
Hey all, I appreciate your responses. Brodie, I hope you are doing we must friend and I agree, the prospect valuations by our GMs will make any trade tough to get off the ground.
It’s always a pleasure talking baseball with some Cards fans, guys. Thank you all for the information and perspectives on your players & GMs.
brodie-bruce
@wagner i keep forgetting about winn but i’ve been so busy this past year i barely kept up with the cards much less the farm.
brodie-bruce
@yc doing alright wish work was more steady atm but it’s the worst time of year for construction but busy days will be around soon. it’s also refreshing talking bb with the true sensible nyy fans, unfortunately on most bb sites you just get that 1 to 5% of idiot homers that spew idiocy, and give most nyy fans a bad rep.
BRICKHARDMEAT220
Man every time that Ozuna deal comes up it stings. We traded away 12 years of control of pitchers who just put up a 5 and 8 war season for 2 years of marcell Ozuna’s 790 ops and crappy defense. Of course hindsight is 20/20 Gallen and Alcantra were not see as future TOR arms and Ozuna was coming off a 900 ops season. Still sucks though.
Big whiffa
The 3rd player was the centerpiece in that deal too lol. Daniel castano was ranked higher in stl farm than both pitchers
acoss13
At least the Cardinals didn’t sign him for a long-term contract, think of the bullet they dodged and that Atlanta has to deal with right now.
brodie-bruce
i think his fight at the strip club with carlos ended that dream of an extension, his horrendous defense didn’t help either. what’s surprising is that ozuna won a gg with the fish and to this day i still go how, did everyone just suck that year or did the writers just felt sorry for the fish.
acoss13
Ozuna got a Gold Glove with Miami? Wtf? He’s not a great defender, I saw him with the Cardinals, since they play the Cubs a lot, and I question that award.
brodie-bruce
i had to double check but yea in 17 he won a gg according to bbref, was one of them plays where he scaled the wall and the ball landed 20 feet in front of him. i thought duncan was bad in the of (r.i.p.) but compared to ozuna, he made dunc look like edmounds out there.
acoss13
Jeez then anyone that ever defends his defense can never talk bad about Kyle Schwarber’s defense then. Good golly, way to devalue the gold glove that year…
brodie-bruce
(bleep) even kyle looks like a gg hof cf compared to ozuna, tbh the statues outside of busch can play better d than him, but i’m going to quote rick james here on the writers giving ozuna a gg, “cocaine is heck of a drug”
acoss13
Kyle Schwarber and Nick Castellanos are better defenders than Ozuna, and these guys are not great defenders here. It’s obvious the writers were sniffing cocaine that year thanks for the Rick James reference lol
mlb1225
Ozuna was a pretty decent defender in 2017. +6 defenisve runs saved, +2 outs above average, and a +2.4 UZR/150. Even more classic numbers like range factor liked him. He was far from the best though. Adam Duvall far surpassed him in many defensive statistics, but Ozuna essentially forgot how to field. His OAA plummeted to -1, then to -6, as well as his range factor.
brodie-bruce
no problem felt like it was an appropriate reference lol, btw gl to your cubbies this year homerism aside i still think it’s the cards for the nlc this year, but your team isn’t one to gloss over and if a few things break right i can see the cubs winning the nlc or sneaking a wc. btw i hope the cubs have a good season, i have no love for the cubs but it makes for a boring rivalry if one team always beats up on the other or doesn’t push each other to be better
brodie-bruce
@mlb1225 good points but you saw enough ozuna when we played you guys that he was not a capable lf much less a gg with the cards just using the eye test.
acoss13
Appreciate the sentiment about the Cubbies, hopefully Mervis breaks out but the second half of 2022, they were entertaining to watch instead of head-shaking lol
It’ll be fun to see Cardinals vs. Cubs games again, some actual meaning to the games this year glad to see a sensible fan lol
acoss13
That still baffles me but appreciate the information thanks!
mlb1225
I think OAA does a very good job in encapsulating his steep decline, especially since it uses many measurable aspects of the game. It’s very strange to me imo. He went from an average CF, to a Gold Glove LF for one year, then essentially forgot how to field.
brodie-bruce
@acoss13 i try but i’ll admit my homerism gets me from time to time but that’s all sports fans. unlike the minority i take the rose glasses off and look at my team for what it is and i’m sure most fans do just unfortunately the idiots are louder and draw more attention than the level headed majority. heck when i used to travel for work i spent a lot of time in the chicago land area and had many good discussions with cubs fans after a few man sodas.
acoss13
Ozuna literally became a head case in a year’s time. His offense took a dip after he left St. Louis that’s for sure. His 2020 numbers are basically an outlier at this point but he got his bag from Atlanta with it so I guess he’s not complaining right?
brodie-bruce
@mlb1225 i’m not diminishing metrics, even though i’m still trying to understand them, i was just saying all you had to do is just “watch” him play out there when he came to stl and it’s like he completely forgot how to play out there, and after the numbers you posted makes me wonder was he partying to much and thought as long as i can hit i don’t need to field. other than a serious injury he wanted to keep quiet how do you go from a good defender to being the butt of every of def joke in one year
mlb1225
I know what you’re saying, but I’ve never seem a guy go from so good to so poor in one year.
brodie-bruce
@mlb1225 this we can agree on, other than an injury he kept quiet or personal problems, how do you explain just falling off a cliff in one year
leftykoufax
Bring back Wacha.
sliderwithcheeze
Why would the cardinals be looking for pitching? According to their fans, their rotation is stacked and they’ll win 100 games. Remember they won a bunch of World Series in the 1930’s and 1940’s so obviously this article is fake news.
DefensiveIndifference
Who is saying the Cards rotation is stacked? Who is saying 100 games? It’s very clear we need an ace. Man the Cards just haunt your nightmares don’t they? Have fun battling the Crew for second. Troll on my guy, troll on.
iH8PaperStraws
I hate to say it, but The cubs will win the division this year. So if you and I ate correct, the Cardinals will 3rd at best? I can see it. But on the bright side, they are playing in London and I will be in attendance.
bravesfan
Curious if the Braves are in discussions at all. Not a huge need for us but I wouldn’t mind having some of their starters. Curious if now that there are less division games and you play everyone if in-division trades will still have a higher price tag. I assume yes, but since you won’t be playing each other as much, I couldn’t see a little more willingness to bend here
stretch123
Burleson and Herrera for Lopez. Send it in Kim will
Bruiser
Not too excited about Lopez. Seems like a 3rd or 4th starter. Isn’t he another pitch to contact pitcher?
snakebyte32
I’ve read that as well, but those types of pitchers tend to thrive at Busch, especially considering who is manning the infield. That is as long as Donovan is playing 2nd. Would not work so well with a Gorman sized hole over at second base,
acoss13
I believe the Cardinals have some outfield prospects? I mean if that’s the case, then that’s a good trade match, Miami needs outfielders, especially if they’re high ceiling prospects to compensate for their pitching depth. Could be wrong but if they do partner up, Cardinals will have a much better hold of a very weak NL Central.
Cedric.p.nelson
Cards wont make any more moves they will rely on thier pitching staff as is until another injury to a starter happens like every year then trade for a low grade starter like been doing past few seasons mo might be frustrating but hes not dumb he knows what hes doing
Bo Hart's Biggest Fan
Mo is nothing if not consistent.
Russ Varner
I’ve heard O’Neil has been a piece being discussed. The Marlins manager and bench coach are very familiar with the Cardinals and their farm system. Also the Cardinals have a lot of depth in the outfield Carlson,O’Neil,Nootbar,Burleson,Yepez,Donovan,oh and let’s not forget Walker who has a legitimate shot at being in the Cardinals opening day lineup. I could also see them trading Herrera they singed Contreras to a 5 year deal and Kizner shown he can be a backup catcher.
chemfinancing
WE WANT SIXTO SANCHEZ YES WE DO MKKAAAYYY
mlb1225
Sixto Sanchez, that’s a name I forgot about. Wonder how the Marlins value him now? He came out of the gates swinging in 2020, then it’s just been injury after injury.
acoss13
Sixto Sanchez was the centerpiece of the Realmuto deal, that was supposed to be a big prospect for Philadelphia at the time, injuries have stalled his career.
mlb1225
I remember at the time, that trade was considered a good haul for the Marlins. Alfaro was still young enough and fresh enough in the big that his prospect status was still valuable and Sixto was one of the best pitching prospects in the league.
acoss13
Oh yeah, even I thought at the time that the Marlins had gotten a great deal. Alfaro was coming off a pretty solid year, and it almost seemed like the Phillies were trading away their catcher of the future without needing Realmuto anymore. Ah well, hopefully Sixto can still live up to his hype, he’s still young enough to have a shot. Alfaro has pretty much nosedived at this point.
brodie-bruce
reminds me of when we traded for holiday, bret wallace was the headliner and 3b of the future. i forgot the other players in the deal but i remember being a teen and pissed that we gave away our “cornerstone” 3b for a rental lf. ff to 11 matt helps us win a ws and bret was barely in bb, i hope for a better outcome for sixto
chemfinancing
The marlins view him as their prize piece to win them the 2023 World Series
tbone0816
I would do a trade involving Carlson, Winn, Libby for Max Fried
stpbaseball 76
for 2 years of fried?
brodie-bruce
does fried have 2 years of control i thought he was a fa at the end of the year, then again if it was for only one year much less 2 more times than not only time the cards trade anyone of that value for a “rental” if they feel they can work out a long term deal.
acoss13
I think Fried has two more years of arbitration control, so that’s probably more enticing for St. Louis. If they got Fried, Cardinals would have another Wainwright where he would just dominate as a Cardinal lol
brodie-bruce
@13 unfortunately that trade won’t happen unless mo feels like he can sign him to a long term deal, but heck it’s fun to dream right
Mjm117
It’ll definitely take at least Lopez, sandy and Eury for either one of Carlson or O’Neal.
If not no deal.
formerlyz
Before the trade deadline, I suggested a deal like Pablo Lopez and 1 or 2 of the bullpen arms for Gorman, Carlson, Gordon Graceffo, Alec Burleson, and a lower level pitching prospect…
So some smaller version of that…Marlins still do have some LHRP depth (the only bullpen stuff they actually have). Maybe 1 or 2 of those movable bullpen guys, and/or Wendle/Berti, and/or a depth arm like Castano or Bryan Hoeing, added to Lopez for some kind of similar package as that
BenBenBen
How many times can you say “meanwhile” and how many times can you use it to interrupt yourself mid-sentence? You can start a dang sentence with it.