In case you hadn’t heard, there’s a group of high-profile free agents still available this offseason. They’re all represented by the same agency. A few people have pointed this out. There were four of them, and with Cody Bellinger’s new deal with the Cubs, there are now three. (Although J.D. Martinez still could be included to make it a quartet.) It’s garnered some mild attention around the baseball world.
So much focus has been placed on the “Boras Four” — and not just for the cringe nickname — that it’s overshadowed the fact that the free agent market still has a handful of good, quality big leaguers who can help teams. None rejected a qualifying offer. None are looking for nine-figure deals. None will require a team to commit money into the 2028 season or beyond.
Arguably most prominent among the remaining “second tier” of the free agent market at this juncture of the offseason is right-hander Michael Lorenzen. The 32-year-old righty is fresh off a career-high 153 innings in what was only his second full season as a starter after a six-year run in the Cincinnati bullpen.
Lorenzen isn’t an ace, but he started 25 games last year (plus four relief appearances) and made the All-Star team after a strong first half of the season with the Tigers. Part of his selection to the Midsummer Classic was by default — every team needs an All-Star representative, and the Tigers didn’t have many candidates — but that shouldn’t be used to downplay the strength of Lorenzen’s first few months of the season.
Heading into the All-Star Game, Lorenzen was sporting a solid but unspectacular 4.03 ERA in 87 innings. He’d started 15 games, fanned 19% of his opponents and issued walks at a tidy 5.7% clip. On a one-year, $8.5MM contract, he was providing fine value. Lorenzen pitched two-third of an inning in the All-Star Game, and then came roaring out of the second-half gates in what wound up being his best stretch of the season. The right-hander finished his first half with five shutout frames and began the second half with another 13 2/3 scoreless innings. By the time the Phillies traded for him in the run-up to the annual trade deadline, Lorenzen was sitting on a 3.58 ERA and 3.86 FIP in 105 2/3 innings.
By now, most fans and readers are familiar with Lorenzen’s first outings as a Phillie. He held the Marlins to a pair of runs through eight excellent innings in his team debut before blanking the Nationals in a 124-pitch no-hitter during his first appearance pitching in front of Philly fans at Citizens Bank Park. That pair of gems dropped his season ERA all the way to 3.23. From July 6 through Aug. 9, Lorenzen pitched 40 2/3 innings with a 1.11 ERA and 31-to-12 K/BB ratio.
And, just as most readers were likely already aware of those heights, the subsequent lows for Lorenzen have also been well-documented. In his followup to that no-hit gem, Lorenzen was rocked for six runs by that same Nationals offense, lasting just 3 1/3 innings. That commenced a calamitous stretch where he was torched for 27 runs over his next 26 1/3 innings. The Phillies were always likely to move Lorenzen to the bullpen for the postseason, given his experience in the role and the strength of the top of their staff, but they took that step several weeks early.
Lorenzen finished out the year with four shutout innings of relief across three appearances, but that did little to repair the damage of his disastrous late-August meltdown. He finished the season with a 4.18 ERA (4.46 FIP, 4.87 SIERA), 17.8% strikeout rate, 7.5% walk rate, 41% grounder rate and 1.18 HR/9 — solid production for a fourth starter but nowhere near as enticing as his numbers looked with just six weeks to go in the season.
It’s worth wondering the extent to which Lorenzen simply wore down. He pitched only 110 1/3 innings the year prior between the big leagues and a minor league rehab stint with the Angels. He didn’t pitch more than 85 innings in a season from 2016-21. Ramping up to more than 150 frames on the year meant pushing his body to levels it hadn’t reached since his age-23 season back in 2015 — his rookie MLB campaign and final season as a starter before the Reds moved him to relief.
Despite the shaky finish, Lorenzen wound up with solid numbers on the season for a second straight year. He’s yet to make a full slate of 30+ starts in a season, but it’s not unreasonable to think he could do so in 2024-25 after building up to 153 innings in 2023. And dating back to his return to a rotation in 2022, he’s pitched 250 2/3 innings of 4.20 ERA ball with a 19% strikeout rate, 8.8% walk rate and 44.5% ground-ball rate. Lorenzen has averaged 94.6 mph on his heater, induced chases off the plate at a nice 32.6% clip and logged a 10.2% swinging-strike rate that’s not far below the 11.1% MLB average.
It’s not an ace profile by any means, but there are plenty of big league teams that are preparing to trot out an unproven and/or below-average arm in the fourth or fifth spot of their rotation. Plugging a roughly league-average starter into one of those spots makes sense for a number of clubs, and Lorenzen shouldn’t break the bank. He’s signed one-year deals for $6.75MM and $8.5MM over the past two seasons. A relatively modest two-year deal or even a one-year deal at a bump over last year’s salary doesn’t seem unreasonable.
For teams seeking rotation help but unwilling/unable to spend at the necessary levels to sign Snell or Montgomery, a short-term deal with Lorenzen could make sense. That’s not true of every team, however. Let’s take a run through the league and look for some potential fits.
Teams with generally full rotations
Each of the Astros, Blue Jays, Braves, Cardinals, Guardians, Mariners, Marlins, Phillies, Reds, Royals and Tigers have a largely set rotation featuring five veterans and/or young starters who are locked into jobs and unlikely to be displaced by Lorenzen.
Kansas City and Detroit might be stretches to land in this group, but for the Royals, signing Lorenzen would mean pushing Jordan Lyles and his $8.5MM salary to the bullpen or cutting him loose. Based on 2023 performances, they’d be better for it, but that’s a lot of money for the Royals to eat. The Tigers, meanwhile, have one rotation spot up for grabs after signing Jack Flaherty and Kenta Maeda this winter. They’d presumably like to leave that open for Matt Manning, Casey Mize and any other young arms to try to seize.
Top luxury payors who’d effectively owe double
Each of the Dodgers, Yankees and Mets are third-time luxury tax payors who’d be taxed at a 110% rate for any additional free agent signings. Even adding Lorenzen on a modest one-year, $9MM deal would mean taking on $9.9MM of taxes and put the total cost of signing at $18.9MM. The Mets recently saw Kodai Senga go down with a shoulder injury, but shelling out nearly $19MM for one year of Lorenzen doesn’t seem like a plausible outcome.
Rebuilding/non-competitive teams
The A’s, White Sox and Nationals are all at various stages of a rebuilding effort. Any of the three could have been a fit for Lorenzen earlier this offseason, but none seem likely now. The A’s signed Alex Wood and traded for Ross Stripling, giving them four set starters and a deep stock of unproven arms to vie for the fifth spot. The White Sox signed Erick Fedde and Chris Flexen in addition to acquiring Michael Soroka and Jared Shuster. They also didn’t trade Dylan Cease. Lorenzen might be an upgrade, but it seems like they’ve added what they’re going to add. The Nationals haven’t done anything to bolster a sub-par rotation beyond signing Zach Davies to a minor league deal, but GM Mike Rizzo has effectively declared his team out of the market for additional big league arms.
I’d argue that another non-competitive club, the Rockies, should absolutely be interested in signing Lorenzen, given the dearth of quality innings among their group of incumbents. But Colorado has shown minimal interest in spending this offseason, and convincing any pitcher to take a short-term deal at Coors Field is a tall order.
Payroll and/or luxury tax issues
- Cubs: The Cubs’ re-signing of Bellinger put them around $3MM shy of the base luxury tax threshold. They wouldn’t face a major penalty for signing Lorenzen — likely just a couple million dollars or so — but they have four locked-in starters and a deep collection of arms vying for the fifth spot (e.g. Jordan Wicks, Hayden Wesneski, Ben Brown, Javier Assad) with top prospect Cade Horton not far behind. They’re not a great fit.
- Rangers: Despite last year’s World Series win, Texas has had an unexpectedly quiet offseason amid uncertainty regarding the team’s television broadcast outlook. The Rangers could clearly use another arm with each of Max Scherzer, Jacob deGrom and Tyler Mahle opening the season on the injured list. The team seems content to ride with an in-house quintet of Nathan Eovaldi, Jon Gray, Dane Dunning, Andrew Heaney and Cody Bradford while waiting on that veteran trio to return, though. GM Chris Young said earlier this month that he doesn’t foresee any further additions of note.
- Rays: The Rays should be shopping in this tier for rotation help, given that they’re relying on a pair of injury-prone veterans (Zach Eflin, Aaron Civale), a converted reliever (Zack Littell) and a pair of talented but unproven prospects (Ryan Pepiot, Taj Bradley) to open the season. Shane Baz, once the game’s top pitching prospect, will be back from 2022 Tommy John surgery but on an innings limit. Jeffrey Springs (Tommy John surgery) and Drew Rasmussen (flexor surgery) will be back at some point in 2024 but perhaps not until the season’s second half. Getting to that point could be a challenge with the Rays’ current group, but Tampa Bay’s projected $99MM Opening Day payroll is (somehow) a franchise record as it is. There’s room to sign Lorenzen for two years on a backloaded deal (particularly if the Rays eventually trade Harold Ramirez and his $3.8MM salary), but their current financial outlay makes them a reach — even if there’s a clear need in the rotation.
- Twins: The Twins have shown interest in Lorenzen but, like the Rangers, have scaled back their spending amid TV revenue concerns. After acquiring Manuel Margot yesterday, president of baseball ops Derek Falvey suggested he’s likely finished adding to the big league roster. The Twins have a decent starting mix with Pablo Lopez, Joe Ryan, Bailey Ober, Chris Paddack, Anthony DeSclafani and Louie Varland as it is. Signing Lorenzen would deepen the group, but an addition apparently isn’t viewed as an imperative so long as the current group remains healthy in camp.
Plausible fits
- Angels: Perhaps their attitude toward Lorenzen is “been there, done that,” but the Halos have plenty of uncertainty with a rotation of Reid Detmers, Patrick Sandoval, Griffin Canning, rebound hopeful Tyler Anderson and the inexperienced Chase Silseth. They took a shot on Zach Plesac, but he has minor league options remaining. Jose Suarez is another option, but he’s also in need of a rebound. If owner Arte Moreno wants to continue his resistance to long-term deals for pitchers, the Angels could bring Lorenzen back without coming close to their franchise-record for payroll or to the luxury tax threshold.
- Brewers: Gone are the days of the Brewers’ nearly unrivaled rotation depth. Freddy Peralta is back to lead a staff that also features a re-signed Wade Miley and Colin Rea. Newcomers Jakob Junis and DL Hall — acquired in the surprise late-offseason trade of Corbin Burnes — round things out. Lefty Aaron Ashby will vie for a spot, and prospect Robert Gasser isn’t far from the big leagues himself. But the Brewers lack some certainty in the rotation and project for a $109MM Opening Day payroll that’s modest even by their standards.
- D-backs: Arizona already signed Eduardo Rodriguez to join Zac Gallen, Merrill Kelly and Brandon Pfaadt in the rotation. Between Ryne Nelson, Slade Cecconi, Tommy Henry and Corbin Martin, they have some depth for the fifth slot, but none of it is proven. The Snakes’ $143MM payroll will already be a franchise record by about $11MM, but if there’s room for one more addition, Lorenzen would solidify the final rotation spot on a win-now club that’s looking to follow up on last year’s surprise World Series bid.
- Giants: The Giants’ rotation looked like a mess even before injury scares to presumptive fourth and fifth starters Keaton Winn and Tristan Beck. San Francisco is reportedly still in the mix to sign Blake Snell, so there’s clearly money left to spend. Right now, they’ll follow ace Logan Webb with top prospect Kyle Harrison, reliever-turned-starter Jordan Hicks, Winn and Beck — if the latter two are healthy. (Winn recently resumed throwing after experiencing nerve discomfort in his elbow; Beck left camp to be evaluated for a hand injury.) Frankly, they could stand to add one of Snell/Montgomery and Lorenzen.
- Orioles: The acquisition of Burnes quelled some anxiety from O’s fans after an otherwise silent offseason on the starting pitching front, but there’s now concern elsewhere in the rotation, as No. 2 starter Kyle Bradish is trying to rehab a UCL strain in his pitching elbow. He wouldn’t be the first pitcher to avoid going under the knife after a UCL injury, but the overwhelming majority of such injury scares end in surgery. Meanwhile, John Means is behind schedule and likely to open the season on the injured list due to his own elbow troubles. Grayson Rodriguez, Tyler Wells, Dean Kremer, Cole Irvin, Bruce Zimmermann and Jonathan Heasley create some depth on the 40-man, but the Orioles are much deeper in high-end position player prospects than in pitchers. Baltimore has just $1MM on the 2025 books and is projected for a mere $96MM payroll. They should absolutely be looking for an addition of some sort, and they reportedly showed interest in Lorenzen before acquiring Burnes.
- Padres: Another team that’s reportedly shown interest in Lorenzen, the Padres have cut payroll significantly and are now more than $20MM from the luxury threshold and nearly $100MM shy of their 2023 payroll. They only have two clear-cut, proven starters: Joe Musgrove and Yu Darvish. Michael King, acquired in the Juan Soto trade, will fill the third spot in the rotation after a strong showing with the Yankees in 2023, but he’s never started more than nine games in a big league season. The other two spots are entirely up for grabs among a group of largely untested arms. There might not be a clearer on-paper fit, although…
- Pirates: …if there is one, it might be in Pittsburgh. The Bucs will roll with recently extended Mitch Keller, Martin Perez and Marco Gonzales in the top spots of their rotation. Johan Oviedo had Tommy John surgery earlier this offseason. Last year’s No. 1 pick, Paul Skenes, should quickly ascend to the big leagues but that probably won’t happen until this summer. Bailey Falter, Quinn Priester, Jackson Wolf, Kyle Nicolas, Luis Ortiz and Roansy Contreras are all on the 40-man, but either lack MLB success or are (in the case of Falter and Contreras) are looking to put an ugly 2023 behind them. The Pirates have been talking to the Marlins about Edward Cabrera and other starters, and GM Ben Cherington has been open about his desire to further add to the rotation.
- Red Sox: Not to be outdone in their need for rotation help amid a shaky collection of starters, Boston has been in a staring contest with Montgomery all winter. If he signs elsewhere or they deem the price too high, Lorenzen could easily fit into the budget of a team that’s nearly $60MM from its franchise record and not close to the luxury tax. Lucas Giolito and Brayan Bello are set, but the combination of Nick Pivetta (who lost his rotation spot for a time in ’23), Tanner Houck, Kutter Crawford and Garrett Whitlock lacks reliability. The Sox need quality innings, but ownership clearly put its foot in its mouth earlier this offseason with a “full-throttle” proclamation that has been followed up with payroll reduction and modest additions on the margins of the roster.
—
If payroll weren’t an object, the Rays would join the Padres, Pirates, Red Sox, Giants and Orioles as the clearest fits for a solid, if unspectacular back-of-the-rotation arm like Lorenzen. Finances very likely are an issue for Tampa Bay, however, but any of those five other clubs — arguably in that order — should be able to find room to raise their rotation’s floor by plugging Lorenzen in at a price that won’t break the bank.
NewYorkSoxFan
Should honestly do away with the representation for each team in the ASG. Best players deserve to be in it, especially if it’s a consideration for HOF.
Rishi
Well if best players should be in it we should likely eliminate fan voting too. Since so many informed fans think fan voting stinks what does that say about democracy?…Let’s be intellectually consistent at least. Still trying to figure out why Ozuna was on the LF ballot instead of the actual Braves LFer btw.
thickiedon
Rishi… considering ALL ages can vote for all stars I don’t feel it’s a reasonable comp for democracy
Rishi
Granted. I had more to say but decided against it. I’m not against democracy but we see many of the same problems. Peoples opinions come too easily from media and who they know (what team they watch). Those opinions are often based on parental opinions and where one lives. I shouldn’t have said it cause I don’t want to get into it.
JoeBrady
Those opinions are often based on parental opinions
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I’ve been saying this for 100 years. Folks get their politics from the same place as they get their religion-from their parents.
You probably register at age 18, without a clear-cut vision of the issues, and then spend a lifetime rooting for “your team”.
All first-time registrants should be forced to pick “Independent” until the first year after they register. Then, if you strongly identify as a democrat or republican, feel free to change it.
But most people won’t, and then most people will be forced to think about the issues when they go to the polls.
Rishi
Also, even when the person rebels against their upbringing that is still indirectly having your parents decide for you.
the guru
Every team/city should have at least 1 rep…but they definitely need to do away with fan voting. Way too many players have been playing in the all star game that don’t deserve it simply due to them having a large city/fanbase.
Seamaholic
Fans pay for everything, they make the call.
Rishi
I don’t care either way. I don’t care about the event either. The problem was stated above tho…the larger fanbases (Yankees, Dodgers, Red Sox, Cubs, Braves, etc) stuff the ballots (when their team is good at least) and the other teams/players/fans get their representatives out of what’s left. I mean, Michael Harris had a horrible first half and nearly made the all-star team. It happens every year. While Braves fans might like seeing Orlando Arcia in the game, most fans hardly know who he even is (tho at the time the voting started he was arguably deserving). If the game were in ATL I’m all for it but it wasnt. The entire Braves infield was in the game at once. You may want the fans to have their say but the smaller fanbase teams get little say (no matter how much their 5 year olds vote 25 times).
Joe says...
Rishi large market teams definitely have more fans and that will mean more votes but KC showed what a motivated mid market fan base could do. Maybe those mid market fans should take matters into their own hands and get out and vote for their guys. But that takes work and complaining is so much easier.
njbirdsfan
Why not allow Hall of Fame voting then by the fans? Is that a road you want to go down?
JoeBrady
njbirdsfan
Why not allow Hall of Fame voting then by the fans?
=====================
Have you seen some of the writers’ votes for the HOF?
Rick Telander thinks Brandon Philips belongs in the HOF.
Richard Griffin thinks Bautista is a HOFer.
Joe says...
njbirdsfan for starters the HOF and MLB are two separate entities.
User 401527550
I sure do.
fre5hwind
So are the committees
Tippin 44s
@Joe says… it doesn’t matter if a mid-market teams player is clearly the most deserving. Even if all of the players 500,000 fans vote 10 times each. Because a player at the same position with even a slightly above average year playing for NYY, CHC, LAD, etc has their 10,000,000 fans all voting once & double up the more deserving player. It’s simple math you can only vote 5× a day. So a population of 100,000 can only cast 500,000 votes a day. While a population of 2,000,000 can cast the incorrect vote 10,000,000×’s a day.
User 401527550
Most people don’t line vote their favorite team into their ballots. I’m sure as hell not voting Baty as an all star over Riley as the the two stand right now. Good players get votes no matter who they play for.
Chuck from Uniontown
You can make all the rules you want for the ASG, I’m still not going to watch it.
Rishi
One thing has nothing to do with the other. Exaggerations. I’m not saying change it, only that it would be more accurate that way. It’s for the fans. As I said tho only certain teams fans are generally heard. If they want to listen to their fans they should change that disgraceful derby format back. Not that I ever cared for it.
Buzzz Killington
They should honestly make it strictly based on a WAR formula with rare exceptions for exciting players who just miss the cut based on WAR.
Buzzz Killington
Why?
Rishi
The problems with that are numerous. Who is it that determines that WAR is the correct judge of everything? It is presumptuous to think we have all the answers. Even if it were, it is largely a matter of opinion. We can’t merely let one group of people assert their opinion as the superior position in all cases. Similar thinking applied to more worldly concerns would be disastrous. WAR is a great stat but it is bias in some ways. Maybe it’s the best we have, maybe it’s not, but all things must be a give and take/a balance of opposing views(this is what drives evolution in thinking), or else anyone who believes they have all the answers will be in control of everything that occurs. Should Mookie Betts be the MVP because of a slightly higher WAR? Nobody voting thought so. WAR values for pitchers are routinely odd. Most people who use WAR have no functional understanding of how it is even calculated. I love WAR but we can never judge everything that happens on the field with one stat. Some of that is because we can’t judge what doesn’t happen. We can’t see if Jose Reyes at first distracts pitchers into throwing David Wright a cookie once every 5 -10 at bats. We can’t see if a person doesn’t run on an outfielder because of their arm (maybe we could somewhat but not with WAR). I could go on. These may be minor but the value we put on defense and which metrics we use in calculation (they usually disagree it seems-look at Crawford last year) make a huge difference. Just look at the different values given by different WAR stats alone. Who determines the right one? Sure it would be more accurate probably that way…I’ll agree.
Buzzz Killington
@Rishi fair point. I just don’t like how lots of players who have no business being in the all star game are getting selected. The current voting system is horrible. WAR is definitely a great metric though to amass a pool of deserving players. I also think defensive value is greatly underlooked and undervalued when selecting players for the all star game.
RonDarlingShouldntBeInTheHallOfFame
WAR is subjective. Formula based, but subjective..For example..you can’t tell me that Ha-Seong Kim was a better player last year than Luis Robert, or Arraez, or Carrol, or Bichette..The fans need to pick the squad.
66TheNumberOfTheBest
All of life now is humans mindlessly letting algorithms and data they don’t understand make all of their decisions for them.
JoeBrady
All of life now is humans mindlessly letting algorithms and data they don’t understand make all of their decisions for them.
=====================
One should try to understand the data before accepting decisions, but that’s probably about right.
AI will probably be better than your doctor at diagnosing you and recommending various courses of action. A computer will likely be better at telling you the best way to get to a location in Brooklyn from the Bronx.
We aren’t there yet, but most every day decisions will likely become computer-generated.
66TheNumberOfTheBest
And 99% of people will lack the skills or knowledge to know when the machine is leading them wrong.
Ex.- GPS routinely take people on terrible routes but they are none the wiser.
User 401527550
Horrendous idea.
cpdpoet
HI Jack Google Gemini has entered the chat.
What questions can I answer for you?
User 401527550
You realize texting was mind boggling technology not to long ago.
JoeBrady
GPS routinely take people on terrible routes but they are none the wiser.
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Perfect example. If I know the way to go, I trust my knowledge.
But if I don’t know the way, I listen to my GPS even if it drives me into a lake. I have no idea how people drove to AAU games before the advent of the GPS. Actually, I do, and it often wasn’t very pretty.
JoeBrady
the side streets are usually quite fast!
=======================
Only if you are familiar with them. In the old days, if you missed a small turn, or a fork in the road, or a street missing a street name sign, it might cost you an easy 15 minutes, and often a lot more.
njbirdsfan
In fairness, Acuna already does all the Tik Tok stuff
libertybell444
It will all be Savannah Bananas style Baseball soon. If a fan Catches a foul ball in the stands, the batter is out type stuff.
HalosHeavenJJ
I’d bring him back for a year or two.
Would allow for either a trade or push Silseth to long reliever/spot starter.
aragon
I think he is a long relief pitcher and nothing more at this time.
orange2001
The Angels rotation is full of #4 and #5 starters. Why bring another one? They should only be considering frontline starters like Snell or Montgomery… or stand pat.
Sandoval and Detmers might actually be closer to #3 starters if they can pitch like they did in 2002.
FletcherFan69
Detmers is so talented that he was a #3 when he was 3 years old. Mad props to him
RonDarlingShouldntBeInTheHallOfFame
Orange-Ummm…they were toddlers in 2002.
orange2001
Clearly I meant 2022. God forbid someone makes a typo.
FletcherFan69
Yes, God does forbid that you make a typo
Take the L chief
filihok
These are my favorite articles on this site.
The analysis is so-so at best, so I either do it myself or wait for FanGraphs.
I can’t always remember every player on every team, so running it down like this is useful to me.
If FIP (and FIP-) and projections were just in your repertoires…
DonkMcCronklin
The text size is so small. Maybe it’s because youre posting from on your high horse.
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
filihok is an insufferable condescending nitpicking blowhard. Why oh why haven’t I muted him yet ?
SweetBabyRayKingsThickThighs
“Muted”
-filihok
JoeBrady
Why oh why haven’t I muted him yet ?
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Because the world needs people to say “That’s the stupidest thing I have heard and you belong in an asylum with no access to computers”.
I don’t want the entire world to be like that, but I also have always said no finance committee meeting should conclude without at least one argument taking place.
filihok
DMcC
Muted (unprovoked insult)
DonkMcCronklin
It was very much provoked.
Now in a show of power, I shall mute you.
Steve Adams
We have a lot of readers who don’t love to see FIP, SIERA, wRC+, fWAR, xwOBA, etc. etc. woven into every post, and I’ve been receptive in the past to feedback that inundating posts with more modern statistics isn’t popular with all of our readers.
There’s no pleasing everyone, of course, and if I feel fielding-independent metrics are critical to a point that I’m making, I’ll absolutely work them in more aggressively. In this instance, I referenced Lorenzen’s FIP and SIERA at multiple points but didn’t hammer them throughout because it’s a high-level look at the likely market for a player that isn’t really determined based on his FIP-.
Your affinity for FIP is noted. You’ve made the point repeatedly, ha. I personally prefer metrics that normalize for HR/FB spikes (i.e. xFIP, SIERA), which FIP does not do. FIP would have you believe that 2020 Dallas Keuchel, 2022 Martin Perez and 2022 Jose Quintana were all far, far better than can be expected over a longer period because their HR/FB rates will inevitably regress.
FIP is obviously still far more predictive than ERA, but I prefer xFIP/SIERA (SIERA in particular for its stronger incorporation of batted-ball data), K-BB% and quite a few other metrics to FIP if I’m just taking a quick look at a player.
I…… think…. I appreciate … some… of that back-handed compliment, haha. But to your broader point, we’re never going to dive headlong into all-out analytical breakdowns of players because it’s just not our aim or intent. It’s also not wat our audience, at large, is hoping to see.
In that sense, I like that FanGraphs provides a more analytical bent to some of the same topics we cover here. They do an outstanding job of it and I love reading their work. They’re essential reading. Similarly, I’ve spoken to many folks at FanGraphs over the years who appreciate our own efforts here at MLBTR. Heck, we hired Leo Morgenstern last fall, and he now writes for both sites and does excellent work for each of us.
At any rate, while I understand and even appreciate your desire for different metrics at MLBTR, I doubt we’ll ever throw ERA out entirely in favor of FIP, just like we won’t stop listing slash stats and swap them out only for wRC+. We’ll continue to cite FIP, wRC+, etc. as we often already do, however.
filihok
SA
I’m in a hurry, so a short reply
“He’d started 15 games, fanned 19% of his opponents and issued walks at a tidy 5.7% ”
This is, for all intents and purposes,FIP or xFIP. Just a lot more convoluted.
But, if you prefer to cater to the ignorance of your readers instead of trying to educate them (which might have farther reaching influence than just baseball)…
JoeBrady
“metrics are critical to a point that I’m making, I’ll absolutely work them”
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I obviously don’t always agree with the metrics and analyses of MLBR (see Chapman+massive).
But please ignore the folks that get offended by the metrics. I am quite capable of reading them, not reading them, agreeing and disagreeing with them.
Everyone else should be able to do the same.
filihok
JB
“But please ignore the folks that get offended by the metrics. I am quite capable of reading them, not reading them, agreeing and disagreeing with them.
Everyone else should be able to do the same.”
This
Catering to ignorance is just never a good look.
It’s super easy to write “3.00 ERA (3.50 FIP, 3.25 xFIP)”. It’s not like adding that extra info takes up 100 words.
filihok
SA
A bit more time right now
“it’s a high-level look at the likely market for a player that isn’t really determined based on his FIP-.”
His FIP- is absolutely at least as relevant as his ERA, K and BB rates. If you’re looking at a player’s market, their expected future performance is of the utmost importance. You said it yourself. FIP and xFIP are more predictive than ERA. Signing.a player is based on what they are expected to do. And, come on, you know teams aren’t looking at ERA to make these decisions (they aren’t looking at xFIP either, but they are looking at something that’s more similar to xFIP than to ERA).
Also, one other point. There was an article the the other day where I commented something about “parallelism”. The article was talking about potention players to fill in a rotation.
For one player ERA and FIP were listed. For the second ERA and K and BB rates. And for the third just ERA (or something to that effect).
That was absurd.
I get that this site isn’t fangraphs, and that’s fine. But the above example shows….something.
If you guys want to dumb things down for the masses that think ERA, W-L, batting average and RBI tell you what you need to know, that’s your right.
If you want to do a little better than that and throw in some better, yes, better, stats, you can certainly do that too. But right now, as that example shows, it’s such a hodgepodge that your readers don’t know what to expect.
I find it annoying that I can just read an article and come away feeling informed. I have to,click over to fangraphs way too often to see what a player’s wRC+ or xFIP or whatever is.
There’s a million sites that I don’t read because I know it’s not useful to me.
MLBTR is like right on the cusp. And the inconsistency is frustrating,
I’m not asking for FG level analysis. I can wait for fangraphs,to do that, or do it myself.
But reading xFIP for one player and just ERA for another in the same article that is comparing those two players is frustrating and makes the articles seem sloppy or lazy. That wouldn’t fly jn a high school English class. It shouldn’t fly here.
Pick a lane?
cpdpoet
filihok
Wow, even as a left-handed person, what a left-handed compliment?
I understand your stance, but as a person who only has a certain amount of time, I also LOVE these posts, BUT for a similar-different reason.
Am 100% in the camp of your 1st and 3rd sentences. Then I can walk away with a better understanding of what may actually be out there for players still unsigned, for you it leads to research.
I think we both win.
filihok
I’m telling a company what I like and don’t like about their product.
It wasn’t meant to be a compliment left-handed or otherwise.
bill l
No one ever mentions the possibility that he could go back to playing the OF and pinch hit every now and then. Low-rent Ohtani.
Buzzz Killington
Arte might bring him back to the Angels and do that. Wouldn’t shock me.
Amtrekman13
Why is this good news site advocating the signing of a player? This hasn’t been an opinion site — stories typically come with attribution. This has none. There are probably a bunch of other unsigned players who would welcome the same type of publicity that won’t be written.
Braves_saints_celts
The title of the article is misleading, they aren’t necessarily advocating for his place on a major league baseball club, more so writing a decent article about a not so bad pitcher that should find a team to play for, but which team will that be? It’s basically the same as when they do polling articles of where will jd martinez land, what will his price be, where will Jordan Montgomery, Blake snell, and Matt Chapman land, and what will their price and years be? They do this stuff all the time.
HatlessPete
Wouldn’t your time be better spent seeing a doctor about getting that stick removed from your butt?
King Floch
Bruh.
JoeBrady
Why is this good news site advocating the signing of a player?
===============================
1-So maybe the site should go dark for a day or two until we get real news?
2-I don’t think MLB-R is advocating for Lorenzen.. They advocate more than I’d like (Chapman) but it is just a filler article about possible fits.
3-And, just imho, this one was a bit interesting. It can’t always be about Snell and Monty. Some teams will do well to add a semi-dependable #4/5 type at a reasonable salary.
Steve Adams
Because Michael Lorenzen is one of the more interesting free agents remaining on the market and there’s very little talk about him. I found him and his market interesting — and was asked about it repeatedly throughout yesterday’s chat that I hosted — so I opted to break it out and take a lengthy look at it. It’s as simple as that. We also recently took long looks at possible market contexts for the top names (Snell, Montgomery, Chapman and, at the time, Bellinger).
There probably are indeed other free agents who’d welcome this type of highlight, and many won’t be written about like this. You are correct. Many will be, however. Darragh just wrote up a profile on Robbie Grossman last week, for one example.
I don’t think the intent here is to suggest this was in some way a favor to Lorenzen’s agents, though rest assured regardless, that’s not the case. Broadly speaking, I’m not in the business of doing that — though we are asked rather frequently. If I were doing that, they’d probably prefer I do something more than frame him as a league-average starter with moderate workload concerns, ha.
We have literally thousands of pieces like this one over the years. The general thrust of MLBTR will always be contextualizing transaction news and the rumors leading up to those moves. But we’ve been making time for original analysis, market breakdowns, arbitration explorations, offseason reviews/previews, interview pieces and other original work for 15+ years.
filihok
SA
This is, to me, much more interesting than writing up a transaction with some incomplete stats, no mention of projections, and a list of other players on the team.
More of this, please
SweetBabyRayKingsThickThighs
Brewers are always into the hybrid reliever/starter and the Twins need more depth. Could be a good fit for either. Both clubs have good chances of winning their divisions too.
KamKid
Do you think he would want to sign with a team that would use him that way? If it’s a short term deal which is almost certain, he might want to be somewhere where he’s more assured of sticking in a rotation.
the guru
So sad whats happened to MLB. This trend just gets worse and worse each year.
filihok
tg
“So sad whats happened to MLB. This trend just gets worse and worse each year.’
What are you talking about?
JoeBrady
+1
If someone wants to be critical (of anything), they should make a modest effort to explain what it is that displeases them.
the guru
what do you mean what am i talking about? I’m talking about what this article is about what else would i be referring too…..good players that havent been signed yet and spring training has already starterd. Good players are not getting signed because its cheaper to call up a league min rookie. Nothing to do with performance. I’m sure lorenzen would sign for league min too.
filihok
tg
I meant that I didn’t know what you were talking about. I thought that was what you were talking about but then you said
“This trend just gets worse and worse each year.”
And I wasn’t so sure. I see no evidence that the above is true
scottaz
I like what the Dbacks have done with starting pitchers this offseason. There is no need to spend another $9/$10 M on Lorenzen to get a 4.20 season ERA, when they can get the same thing for rookie wages from any of 4 pitchers. Give the kids a shot instead of wasting money.
Seamaholic
Because they’re one “uh oh that didn’t feel right” away from disaster. Very little pitching depth. Like the Orioles, they’ve built their farm around position players. Last year they had freakish (good) injury luck, especially late in the year, and still only won 84 games. And they need to win now because the two guys they rely so heavily on, Gallen and Kelly, are only around two more seasons and Kelly is getting old. Another reliable SP should absolutely be on the table.
C Yards Jeff
Orioles also had good luck last season having a SP staff that stayed relatively healthy year long. I believe from those pitchers on the opening day roster, Wells was the only one to miss extended time and that was a fatigue issue not a IL issue.
This year. Oof. Braddish and Means already down for awhile. Yes. Go get some one POBO Elias.
highheat
@Seamaholic
I get the argument that they could use a other reliable SP, but is Lorenzen really that guy when they can get comparable production (with more upside) on a league minimum salary?
We have to wait to see how they hold through Spring Training, but both Nelson and Cecconi are both throwing noticeably filthier sliders, and Mena is introducing a Sinker to his pitch mix (have to wait to see how long the velo holds, but he’s also been sitting higher with his 4S than he normally does at this time of year).
There’s no shortage of potentially average SPs on the DBacks, the depth issue is with above average arms (and that’s not exactly an issue that only the DBacks have).
Homer_Heins
While I hope Tommy Henry takes a big step forward, they could still use more veteran depth in the backend, and Henry could still take that step. I like Lorenzen over a Zach Davies type. That said, I recall watching Henry in the CWS and I think he is a big game pitcher with a lot of growth to come.
James Midway
I wouldn’t mind him going to the Padres.
alphabravo619
I second that.
RonDarlingShouldntBeInTheHallOfFame
Just a hunch, but I feel like they’ll get the same production for far cheaper from Brito and Vasquez. Why waste the money? Especially having Avila, Snelling, Thorpe, Waldron, Lesko, etc as depth..
jgaepi
The fact that the Padres are in this position AND not corrected it 3 weeks from Korea is criminal negligence by Preller. He’s acting like he’s already fired and I wish they’d just make it official at this point!
Old York
Dump the luxury/payroll tax and let teams sign any players they desire at whatever price.
Simbosargos
Because big markets don’t already have a MASSIVE advantage.
User 401527550
What’s that? Sending a significant portion of their revenue to owners of smaller market teams to line their pockets?
Simbosargos
I mean, cool I guess. It’ll be a ten team league. Have fun.
Old York
@Simbosargos
Like the big markets taking all the luxury tax and not investing in their team… oh wait, that’s the small market teams like Jokeland & Pittsland. That’s the problem with the small market teams not the Big Market teams.
C Yards Jeff
I’m with ya Old York. Get rid of that luxury tax. That said, I’m afraid that competition imbalance would be so severe that it would destroy the game.
A thought. To give all teams a fair chance at winning, apply a value to a each win.
MLB hires some actuaries to determine the average team payroll around the league. From there, they come up with a range that most teams fall within. These teams get 1 point for each win.
Example (very amateur) of a value system per win:
Teams w/payroll between 100 & 200 mil get 1 pt
Between 201 & 250 mil get .975 of 1 pt
Between 50 & 99 mil also get .975
Above 251 mil .950 for a win
Below 49 mil also .950
Note: actuaries would also be the ones figuring out the actual values assigned to each payroll level.
Angels & NL West
I’m not sure what level of interest the Angels have in Lorenzen, but they could use another SP to create some depth and push Plesac and Suarez further down the depth chart. Lorenzen may have the Angels high on his list given he is from Anaheim or somewhere close by.
Jelvisdela
This is the type of starter Minnesota should be all over. He’d give you more than Paddack, Varland & Desclafini will be able to this year.
I get it that Falvine’s hands are kind of tied given Joe Pohlad’s desire to ‘rightsize’ his business. It’s just kind of a shame that the 7th richest owners in the MLB can’t give their fans even a half wave of an acknowledgment that we’re gonna pony up to try and band aid over what we lost to free agency.
As a die hard fan who was semi rejuvenated after what last year brought about – this team really bugs the crap out of me some times.
SFGLifer
Zero chance the Giants sign this guy or anyone else who could truly help because ownership is much more interested investing in their real estate project at mission rock than fielding a competitor. Gonna be nothing but 80 win seasons until the Johnson’s sell. Thanks greg
splinkysf
Lorenzen is a terrific fit for SF. He can be in the rotation until Ray and/or Cobb rejoin and easily slide into long relief.
Even better, SF may be able to harness more out of him in the SP role.
2/10.5m
elvis26
I would love for the cardinals to sign him we need more depth for our rotation
Ariaga II
As an Angels fan signing Lorenzen would make too much sense, so I don’t expect them to get him. You can sign the guy to a 1 year deal and just like the Tigers did this past year try to flip him to a contender for a prospect. The Angels have the cap space, they won’t compete, and can squeeze him into the rotation or coming out of the bullpen. As a bonus, the guy can play in the outfield and is a serviceable bat in a pinch.
splinkysf
Nobody wants him doing the two way thing anymore. The other reasons you listed make more sense for SF signing him vs LAA
Moneyballer
I can’t see him in the rotation of a contending team. Unspectacular is the correct word to describe him yet he’s the type where you wait for the rails to come off and they just never do. He’s like a bend but don’t break defense.
ayeah
I say we change the subject line of this article to, “Let’s find what’s wrong with the All Star Game voting process.”… after reading the majority of the comments.
Now to answer what this article was anctually about, “Let’s Find A Home For Michael Lorenzen”.
I feel the Rays are the true ideal home for him. Not a high number innings pitcher. He could easily pitch those shorter starter innings that the Rays pitchers start. Has bullpen experience. Can easily be used as a relief pitcher for the Rays.
The Rays would be the ideal home for him and his pitching.
On the flip side. The other AL East teams would pulverize his pitching.
On that note. Let’s make his home Intentional Talk along side Kevin Millar.
stymeedone
I still like Baltimore for him. Reliable veteran that is still improving. Not expensive. Doesn’t require a long term commitment.
cwsOverhaul
If the goal is to get 10mil, music may have stopped where clubs will at least roll with cheap/younger internal options to eat some innings out of the gate. Teams do save money for in-season improvements rather than burn it.
This one belongs to the Reds
I’d like him back in Cincinnati but he would probably prefer to start. He would get a lot of innings with all the five inning at best pitchers on the staff though, even some spot starts in the inevitable double headers. Plus he could play center field again at times like before and get an at bat or two.
Heels On The Field
BR says Lorenzen’s gross pay has amounted to almost $28 million. If he’s homeless after that he has made some horrendous decisions with his money.
This one belongs to the Reds
Props to Steve for “In case you haven’t heard…” Made me laugh.
panj341
Pirates need a starter for sure but will Nutting open the wallet. It is probably feeling a little light after extending Keller.
AMiCk ĐOGEron
This article is well researched and breaks down the options quite nicely.
That said, Cincinnati’s young pitchers like Lodolo, Ashcraft, and Greene have proven they struggle staying healthy for a full season. Abbott struggled down the stretch as well. Lorenzen on a 1-2 year deal to come back home and compete with those guys for starts/relief appearances isn’t the worst idea.
I’d personally love to see something like a split start between Lodolo and Lorenzen. Each goes 3-4 innings. Lefty/righty, one with more junk and the other with power. Keep both fresh and healthy for the whole season.
I.M. Insane
“Let’s Find a Home For Michael Lorenzen”. Sounds like you’re starting up a gofundme account or placing a jar on the counter at the local 7-11.
Human Being
We need that.
ayeah
The way all the players cry all the time they need to be paid more. I’m surprised there aren’t a bunch of players doing gofundme drives for their poor souls.
Dice 66
Gonzalez looked bad yesterday for Pirates. He is Their num. 2? Really? Yes Bucs should be looking.
Old York
Quite sad to hear that a multimillionaire is homeless. A sign of how terrible the cost of living has been on all of us. All the best to you finding a place to live. If you want, you can stay with me until you find a place of your own.
Dash 2
Why does sports media work so hard to promote free agency? If a guy was 38 with a 7.0 era and wanted 10 million a year, they’d rave about his innings pitched, curveball, etc
cwsOverhaul
“Little guy” vs the rich owners. Union chieftains have done a great job over the years to where both sides of the table are doing very well. That is a good thing in that there was a time when players truly were getting hosed.
It is not a popular stance for media to opine that teams might feel it’s wise to save money for potential mid-season acquisitions rather than pay 8 figures now to a mediocre older FA.
JoeBrady
Writers now get paid for clicks, not intelligent input. And advocating for FAs is easy since requires less analysis. Not all writers, but certainly a decent amount of them will simply advocate for the most expensive players available.
ActionDan
I could see Detroit bringing him back probably as a long reliever and spot starter instead of bringing someone up from the minors. Any of the teams could as well. He was pretty successful for the most part in Detroit last year.
maxmilna
Is he homeless? Poor guy
wvsteve
Come on Bucs, get somebody. Have 2 starters IMO. Gonzo and Contreras got rocked in their first spring outings. To be honest Jared Jones is better then both right now
User 1404051815
The best spot for the guy is Pittsburgh. Same can be said for Bauer. Makes too much sense. But instead, I am sure Cherington will go out and bring someone like Syndergaard in
It’s the Pirates Way
Observations1978
Lorenzen is a quality big league pitcher but I’d use him as a reliever. There’s no doubt he can start but the 124 pitches in the no hitter torched him. I like him in a long role for a good team. But I wouldn’t pay him as a starter. He’s still a free agent because he finished poorly and there’s too much risk.
So maybe he gets 2 million w some PB’s based upon some combination of Games Pitched and Games Started where he can earn another 1.5.
Right now, he is cargo floating at sea with no port.
vaderzim
I’m happy this article acknowledges how cringy the name “Boras Four” was.
Part of me also thinks Boras only got the Bellinger deal done because the name was bad for business.
JoeBrady
“Boras Four”
========================
A more clever title might have been the “Boras For-Us”.
Simbosargos
I’ve been clamoring for the Brewers to sign him all off season.
Still makes a ton of sense.
Salzilla
That’s a heck of an article for Michael Lorenzen, but at this point he’s a fall back option for a team that doesn’t like what they already have. I can see him signing before the season once a lot of teams make cuts, but there are definitely a few right now that could automatically slot him into their back end.
Steve Adams
Ha, yeah. The late stages of the offseason always lead to some exhaustive looks at free agents who probably wouldn’t get the same treatment in the earlier, busier portions of the offseason when there’s more names available and more news in general. I didn’t necessarily sit down intending to write 2500+ words on Michael Lorenzen, haha, yet here we are. Hooray for late February!
2020Sucks 2
Astros could use Lorenzen too. Yes, their rotation is strong, and could get stronger by midseason, if Garcia and a bigger if, if McCullers are healthy.
However, it could be just looking good on a paper, too many uncertainties: Verlander’s health, Valdez’s inconsistency, Javier’s inconsistency, is Brown ready? and if Urquidy/France are starting rotation or long inning relief material.
The bullpen itself is suspect after the 7-8-9 of Abreu, Pressly and Hader. Astros blundered by offering Montero last year a 3 year deal of over $10M a year. Beyond that their bullpen arms are a bunch of Major League movie player profile: I have never heard of this guy.
Therefore, it would behoove the Astros to be interested in Lorenzen. He could be a 4th or 5th starter. He could be an asset in the bullpen.
Astros should sign Lorenzen to a 1 year/$9M deal with a 2nd year $10M team option. Come trade deadline this year, if Astros starters are all healthy and producing, and Garcia and McCullers are actually healthy themselves, then trade Lorenzen or another pitcher to address other team’s needs.
thickiedon
Came here to say the same. I agree with your points. The rotation could go sour quick and there’s no farm depth
JoeBrady
I was an anti-Lorenzen guy until one of the other posters suggested I take a closer look. Now I am thinking that, for one year and the right price, it might make sense for the RS to make him our #5 and secure the BP by putting Whitlock, Houck and Winc in there.
Quinnap89
Red Sox, let’s go. Pull the trigger on SOMETHING
Sour Bob
The Giants should sign both Lorenzen and Clevinger.
I’m not a Giants fan, just someone counting the number of healthy, established starters this ostensibly contending team has on my fingers and noticing that the math ain’t mathing.
rightwingrick
He’d actually be a good bullpen long-man fit for the Mariners who would need help if a starter goes down (which will almost certainly happen).
They are thin in “ready” minor league pitching; he’d be a pretty solid #5 if needed.
swanhenge
Any number of teams can shore up their starting five w Lorenzen. And his price should palatable by the same number of teams. Not exactly sure how he’s still available.
This has been a weird off season. Spring training games are already going and there’s a veritable roster of players in limbo. I think teams’ commitment to their own younger (see inexpensive/controlled) players is prohibiting a normally fluid FA market.
I foresee a flood of one year deals emerging after teams have monitored their own situations (injuries, performance, etc).
swanhenge
That’s hilarious, I thought exactly the same.
“Lorenzen prefers something close to his job while wife, Kitty, wants to be close to the beach.”
*no idea of his wife’s name
rememberthecoop
I’ve got a spare bedroom upstairs.
wvsteve
I’m starting to wonder if there are a few injuries the media doesn’t know about
joew
One of those that If he were a pirate i’d be happy with and if he wasn’t i’d be happy with too.
One year deal maybe an option or two at 10M guarantee or there bouts. Really though, if they’re going going to sign someone big, might as well stand with what we got and hope.
Hoping the pirates don’t trade for Cabrera mostly because of what it would cost. But if they can keep the cost down might be worth it given his control but I have a hard time believing the cost is going to be low enough to be in my comfort zone.
joew
missed the edit button.. type-o: If they’re not going to sign someone big is what i wanted to type
Brick House Coffee Tables Inc
The White Sox should be interested. Offer him $6M and structure it so that if he gets traded he gets a player option for another $9M with a $3M buyout. If he doesn’t stink, he will get traded and end up with either 1/9 or 2/15.
libertybell444
I is look forward to the article titled…Let’s find a home for Trevor Bauer.
libertybell444
I look forward to the article titled…Let’s find a home for Trevor Bauer.
MLBTR needs to hire editors
I know where his next home is: the Nevada State Penitentiary with all the other r*pists.
MLBTR needs to hire editors
“Meanwhile” needs to be at the start of the sentence, NOT the middle.
Mildred
He’s a cutie. He can come to my house
Steve12345
The Cardinals should have signed him instead of getting in a big hurry to hire Kyle Gibson and Lance Lynn.