White Sox Interested In Abreu

Remember that Abreu/Contreras/Dye rumor that was bouncing around last night that couldn't quite graduate from the Unfounded category?  We're a little closer to a foundation about this one tonight.

A very solid source close to the Phillies tells me that Kenny Williams and the White Sox "love" Bobby Abreu.  It's the first I've heard that the club is truly interested in the right fielder.  He also mentioned that the Phils would like a pitcher like Jose Contreras.  There is some question as to whether the Phils would need to include Gavin Floyd to make an equitable deal.

He said that with the White Sox payroll rising to over $90MM, they can't take on much more.  However, I've heard in the past from my White Sox guy that the Sox would actually take the payroll to $105MM.  What's more, the 2006 salaries of Dye, Contreras, and Abreu are a wash.  The Phils would take on $13MM and the White Sox would do the same.

The Sox would have to squeeze a marginal $11MM into their payroll in 2007.  Abreu is owed $17MM for that season (including a $2MM buyout of his '08 option).  But given that the club likely would have exercised Jermaine Dye's affordable $6MM option, it's a marginal $11 mil for '07.

This would clearly be a win now move for the Phils, as it would strengthen their team for 2006.  The combination of Contreras and Dye was worth 10.5 wins above replacement players in 2005.  Abreu was worth 6.8 wins.  While he still has potential at age 23, Gavin Floyd can't be counted on for much after posting a 6.16 ERA and 1.61 WHIP in 137 Triple A innings in 2005.

Another interesting nugget is the close friendship between Abreu and Ozzie Guillen.  Guillen certainly had some influence on the acquisition and retention of Freddy Garcia.

Comments

[Brian]

Living in South Jersey just outside of Philly, I can tell you that if they traded Abreu for Contreras straight-up, there would be riots in the streets. Abreu is hands down the best player on that team, and they don't really have anyone ready to step in and attempt to put up similar numbers. Jason Michaels was decent, but they traded him away last week. The Phills do need to find pitching somewhere though.

[RumorMonger]

Well, Dye ain't too shabby and he'd be in the deal too...

[Mike Diviero]

I don't see the Sox having any interest in Gavin Floyd. He projects to be a Jon Raush type -- mediocre at best.

If the Phillies swap Floyd with LHP Cole Hamels, this rumor would be more believable. However, in the end I don't see Kenny Williams making this deal. You can never have enough pitching.

BTW, I've been a Cubs fan all my life, but I have grown weary of supporting such a lousy franchise. After watching the Sox win the World Series and improve this offseason, and then watch the Cubs sign bums like J Jones, I'm leaning towards making the big switch. It just seems brighter on the south side of town.

[RumorMonger]

From what I've heard, giving up even Floyd would be too much for the Phils. So Hamels is outta the question.

[Erikfromdabronx]

As a Met fan, I really want this to happen. Contreras doesn't intimidate like Bobby Abreu does. In fact, no one in that rotation does. No real Ace should give up 35 HR's, regardless of Park Factors.

I think the Phillies could use Victor Zambrano. His HR/9 (ignoring ONE start against the Brewers) was one of the lowest in the league.

[xxJamesxx]

Abreu for just Contreras is the most lopsided trade in history. Abreu for Contreras and Dye is getting better, because it gives us a decent replacement for Abreu, however, Dye is a big downgrade in RF. I think if we are adding in Floyd, Chicago should be adding in a player as well.

[Erikfromdabronx]

Do it, Gillick! Trade another outfielder for trash!

Anyone else think the Phillies might regret the Michaels trade when Rhodes stinks or Burrell gets injured?

[Craig]

If this happens, I'll crawl blindfolded across the Schuylkill.

Dye and Contreras both had nice 2005 season and were big parts of the White Sox Championship run, but if you think you can count on either to repeat, you're insane.

[xxJamesxx]

I dont think a Mets fan should be speculating about other teams potential injuries.

[Erikfromdabronx]

Touche, though i've seen EVERYONE ELSE do it, so why not be just as annoying to make my point clear?

Still, Michaels for Rhodes could be a disaster.

Looking forward to crushing all your hopes in 2006.

Your Pal
Erik
Mets Fan since 1988

[Jeff]

If the Sox acquire Abreu, they should trade Brian Anderson to the Cardinals for Adam Wainwright and Chris Lambert.

[23]

"After watching the Sox win the World Series and improve this offseason, and then watch the Cubs sign bums like J Jones, I'm leaning towards making the big switch."

Mike- You're not fooling anyone. We know you've always been a Pale Hoser and this cheap propoganda trick won't help turn any real Cubs fans to another team. Nice try.

[Dan(Boston)]

So rumormonger, just an idle sox fan here looking at the depth chart. We have five solid starters(if you combine clement and arroyo into one) and paplebon looked real good at the end of last year. Given your post about a big rumor out of the Dodgers, and given the second rate infield we're throwing out there, any chance there's Well's will get his wish. Now that his agent has said he'll report maybe that will light a stove under a west coast team to cough up something for a 10-15 game winner

[Dan(Boston)]

Oops.
PS: The dodgers have 3 SS on their depth chart and two closers?

[Matt]

23,
While it is possible that he is a lifelong Sox fan like myself. I also have alot of Cub fan friends and some have echoed alot of what Mike said. Not one has threatened to just flat out turn on the Cubs, but several of my Cub fan buddies are planning on spending just as much time at the Cell as Wrigley this year basically fed up with McPhail, Hendry and the whole regime. I can definitely understand Cub fans frustrations as a team that seemingly had more talent than any other one in 2004 somehow didnt even make the playoffs and last year I thought the Cubs at least at the start of the year were no worse than a 2nd place 85-90 win team and I was wrong. While I don't discount the fact Mike could be a longtime Sox fan, I also have heard many longtime loyal Cub fans echo setiments similiar to his.

[Jason]

I'm not sure this would be a good trade for the White Sox. Abreu is not that great of a player. Solid Yes, superstar No

[xxJamesxx]

Not that great of a player? What outfielder in baseball puts up the consistent seasons Abreu has over the last 6 or 7 years? Sure, more hit for power, but few score more runs, a few steal more bases, but few post an OB over .400, hit 25 HR, drive in 100, score 110, and steal 35 bags a year.

[Southside Irish]

well...i grew up in bridgeport but my old man played for the cubs. that being said, for one, abreu is a stud... the sux better give up a whole lot more than contreras to obtain a mvp cantidate like abreu...regardless, what do all of us have to do to keep this from becoming a mets blog and for that matter a sorry ass cubs blog?????

[Deznuts]

"If the Sox acquire Abreu, they should trade Brian Anderson to the Cardinals for Adam Wainwright and Chris Lambert."

If the White Sox traded Jose Contreras and Jermaine Dye for Bobby Abreu and Gavin Floyd, why would they trade Brian Anderson? Abreu would be replacing Dye in RF and they would still need a CF...

Podsednik in LF
Anderson in CF
Abreu in RF

???

[Southside Irish]

"If the Sox acquire Abreu, they should trade Brian Anderson to the Cardinals for Adam Wainwright and Chris Lambert."

"If the White Sox traded Jose Contreras and Jermaine Dye for Bobby Abreu and Gavin Floyd, why would they trade Brian Anderson?"
"Abreu would be replacing Dye in RF and they would still need a CF..."

haha you guys sound worse than Cubs fans...Abreu would be a MAJOR upgrade in RF, they wouldn't really miss Contreras...the sox would get a proven power hitting of'er and while giving up a middle of the road of'er, and obtaining a great prospect and losing an old sp'er (with 2 legite major league pitches)

you are talking about contreras like he is prior or even worse...rich hill...contreras is past his prime, if not he has a very limited time left and abreu is good for a few more years...regardless, wake up and realize that if this trade proposal were 2 for 2...it's just not plausible let a lone probable...

[Joseph Hrusa]

I think that it would be nice to get abreau but contreras and dye is to much.... conteras was our best pitcher down the stretch and dye was the ws mvp. All u that think philly is getting the worst of the trade our out of your minds, philly is going nowere what the team that they have and we our going to repeat as ws champions....... go white sox and one last thing, cubs suck! this is our town!

[Joseph Hrusa]

I think that it would be nice to get abreau but contreras and dye is to much.... conteras was our best pitcher down the stretch and dye was the ws mvp. All u that think philly is getting the worst of the trade our out of your minds, philly is going nowere what the team that they have and we our going to repeat as ws champions....... go white sox and one last thing, cubs suck! this is our town!

[jghjg,jhb]

This is Narc. Mets are trading milledge to nats for livan+vidro

[Bdid]

Milledge for livan and vidro??? Wow, you are pretty funny!!! I don't think either team would make that deal!

[MichaelZ]

If I was making the deal on the Phillies' behalf I would give them Abreu and Floyd, plus another prospect or two if necessary, but I would want Neal Cotts and Josh Fields in addition to Contreras and Dye. Of course I'm speaking purely as a fan, one who is tired of seeing his team constantly screwed. Mr. Gillick would probably be quite happy trading Abreu even up for Contreras, putting Shane Victorino in right field and praying that nobody gets hurt.

[RutgersESQ]

Contreras is old and has one decent season in MLB ... Dye is just a notch above mediocre. He played well in the WS but even a broken clock is right twice a day ... Neither player is a proven commodity ... Gillick said he'd only trade Abreu for an Ace ... Contreras is NO ace ... NO DEAL ... Rumor is Falso

[23]

"....... go white sox and one last thing, cubs suck! this is our town!"

Joseph- Enjoy it while you can, because the minute the 06 season starts, it won't be anymore. Cubs fans will always be here, but as soon as Thome gets hurt, the pitching staff comes back to earth, and Rowand sets the world on fire in Philly, Sox fans will go back to doing what they did before the 05 playoffs--NOT going to the Cell. Hey, but at least your shiny new championship caps won't get dirty.

[REM]

Yea Gavin Floyd is a bust, what other propects do the Phils have that are top tier?

[Matt]

23,
I think you have a better chance at winning the lotto than everything you said coming true. I've been a lifelong White Sox fan and get tired of hearing the Cub fans talk about the attendance. Please let us know when you the Cubs even get to a World Series much less win one. It must really suck when the only argument you have is about the attendance and starting this year even that might not be an argument anymore. I have another question for you, Since the Cubs draw way more than the White Sox, How does it feel to look in the paper and realize your team is being outspent by a team that you like to say doesn't draw half as well as the beloved Cubbies? As for White Sox fans not going to the Cell, I have a little saying that I want you to remember. "I'd rather support a World Series championship team and 25,000 fans (which they will draw way more an avg game since the entire lower deck of 26,000 is now all season ticket holders) than a pile of crap, Dusty and 40,000 fans."

[Kyle]

I think that it would be nice to get abreau but contreras and dye is to much.... conteras was our best pitcher down the stretch and dye was the ws mvp. All u that think philly is getting the worst of the trade our out of your minds, philly is going nowere what the team that they have and we our going to repeat as ws champions....... go white sox and one last thing, cubs suck! this is our town!

You don't know what you are talking about Abreu is the third best RF in baseball, and floyd is still young and can improve. Contreras IS GOING TO SUCK THIS YEAR i have said it twenty times but you cant look at half a season that was astronomically better than the rest of his career and expect the same thing again. And with dye you caught lightning in a bottle he is mediocre in RF. If the phillies took this they would be dumb. This is so lopsided.

Joseph- Enjoy it while you can, because the minute the 06 season starts, it won't be anymore. Cubs fans will always be here, but as soon as Thome gets hurt, the pitching staff comes back to earth, and Rowand sets the world on fire in Philly, Sox fans will go back to doing what they did before the 05 playoffs--NOT going to the Cell. Hey, but at least your shiny new championship caps won't get dirty.

Finally someone I agree with I dont even think the White Sox will make the playoffs this year but I seem to be in the minority on that one

[bobo]

Wasn't this all discussed 2 posts ago?

My comments there:

I'm not going to get into the Contreras debate again, other than to say at $8 Million, he's clearly below market value, and should be in demand (the extent of which can be debated).

But as far as the hitters go, how much weight do you give the 2005 stats? If the answer is a lot, then this is a steal for the Phillies. They get a hitter who wasn't _that_ far off from Abreu, plus Contreras, and save about $3 Million.

Of course, Dye is an injury risk and should only be counted on to have an OPS around .800, while Abreu doesn't miss a game and should be around .900. But still, given the Phils' stated desire to move offense for pitching, this seems very fair - specially when you consider Floyd's huge regression last year (Hamels is the guy that they'll be protecting, off-field problems aside).

---------

"how much weight do you give the 2005 stats?"

Dye: .846 in 568 PA

= not _that_ far off from:

Abreu: .879 OPS in 705 PA

Abreu's been closer to 20 HR than 30 more often than not, but point taken that he can hit for power. 30 steals are ok, but when you get caught a quarter of the time how much value do they really add?

I'm not debating that Abreu's better (and I may even say _much_ better, because my comments above were based on a comparison of 2005 numbers), but is he 3+ times better? Is he worth Contreras, Dye, and, say, Scott Eyre (a FA reliever signed at market value)? Because that's how much he's making.

Discuss.

[bobo]

And furthermore, may I suggest that given the Mets' improvement and Atlanta's continual dominance, the Phillies should start taking some chances?

Contreras is risky, yes, but having consistent, predicatable players signed at or above market value (read: Abreu) is a sure-fire way to guarantee a middle of the pack finish (unless you've got a $200M payroll).

[Matt]

As a White Sox fan I can't believe I'm reading some of these posts. If the White Sox could get Bobby Abreu for Jose Contreras that would be great and KW should do the deal now before Gillick backs out. If the White Sox could get Abreu for Contreras and Dye, KW should do that deal before Gillick backs out.

Let's look at the facts. Jose Contreras is 34 at the youngest, really had a one awesome second half last year and the playoffs, and is due 8 million this year. The Sox and him reportedly have been getting further away not closer to an extension. If we keep Jose what happens if he puts together an entire year like the second half year where he is just a stud? The answer he probably prices himself way out of the White Sox budget for 07 and he walks at the end of the year. What happens if Jose reverts back to his 04 self this year? Answer: Well then he's no better than a #5 starter anyway and the Sox dont want him back next year and he walks. Another thing you have to remember is with Brandon McCarthy, the Sox have a surplus of starters. From what we saw last year, I think McCarthy is more than capable of handling the 4th or 5th starter spot if Contreras is traded. Garland would be the key as he would have to come close to at least equaling last year's #s. I also am a believer that Javier Vazquez working with Cooper and being in much less pressured role as a #4 or #5 starter will do better than alot of people think. It wouldnt surprise me at all to see Vazquez win 15 games this year especially if Thome is healthy and the Sox do acquire Abreu.

Jermaine Dye is a nice player in RF, but anyone who thinks Abreu isn't a big time upgrade is crazy.
Here are their averages over the last 4 years. Games played: Dye:119 Abreu:159. Runs scored: Dye:65 Abreu:105 HRs: Dye:20 Abreu:23 RBI: Dye:68 Abreu:98 SB:Dye:4 Abreu:31 AVG: Dye:.264 Abreu:.299 OBP: Dye:.314 Abreu:.414. I would love to get a pitcher back as well if we give up Dye and Contreras but even if we can't this is a great deal for the Sox. Again a lineup of say Podsednik, Uribe (supposedly the Sox plan to hit him 2nd), Thome, Konerko, Abreu,Iguchi, Pierzynski, Anderson and Crede is pretty good with everything in terms of balance. You have more speed, power, better OBP guys than last year.

[23]

Matt- I didn't really make a huge deal out of the attendance contest. You must have something on your mind. What I was suggesting, simply, was that Sox fans come out when the team wins A LOT, but they don't come out much to support their team otherwise--even when they're winning. No big deal. Joseph claimed that this was now a Sox town. I strongly disagree, since the minute the Sox don't go to the playoffs, the status quo will reappear.

And, yes, it's painful being a (real) fan of a team that fails to win when they should. I'm disappointed. But I'm still a loyal Cubs fan. Something you just can't seem to stomach. That's your problem, not mine.

[Randy]

This trade will not be made.

The Sox don't need Abreu.The won the WS without him and their lineup is already improved over last year. Besides, while Abreu was tanking in the second half of last year and watching his team just miss the playoffs because of it, Dye was heating up and leading the Sox and coming up big in clutch time! Don't you think that the Sox know this and won't forget it ?

Lastly, the Sox need Contreras. Their bullpen is thin now and if one starter goes down, they could be in trouble. That's why I believe KW when he says that he would need pitching in return for Jose. They also, might still sign him to a contract extension.

[dan]

someone said contreras for abreu straight up would be hte worst trade in history......disagreed... 18-Nov-97 Selected by the Tampa Bay Devil Rays in the first round (6th pick overall) of the expansion draft. Then the Devil Rays traded Bobby Abreu to the Philadelphia Phillies for Kevin Stocker.

enough said

[RumorMonger]

Brock for Broglio?

McGwire for Mathews, Ludwick and Stein?

Fred McGriff for Melvin Nieves, Donnie Elliott, and Vince Moore?

Jay Buhner for Ken Phelps?

Lowe and Varitek for Heathcliff Slocumb?

[Matt]

23,
Well my apologies, I didnt mean to get all over your case about the attendance. I didn't like the argument before the Sox won the World Series and at least to me the argument holds even less water. You do make some truthful points and as much as I sometimes tell my Cub fan buddies to just screw the Cubs if you're not happy with them, I know how hard that would be to do. You are a fan of your team no matter what and I'm glad you are at least a diehard cub fan as opposed to some of the casual ones who seemingly know not alot about the Cubs much less baseball. I guess the two arguments I get tired of hearing from my cub fan friends and anyone in general about the White Sox is the attendance and that they got lucky last year to win the world series. I'm not a complete idiot a 90% idiot yes but not a complete. I know they had some luck last year, from umpire calls to the biggest break in my mind missing Colon in the ALCS to not having to face Oswalt to game 3, yes they had luck but most championship teams do. Look at possibly the Steelers, Would they even have made it past Cincy if Palmer didnt go down? The bottom line with the 05 Sox yes they were lucky at times, but they also won the most games in the AL, led the entire division from start to finish (a division in my opinion that starting last year with the Tribe surging is getting better and this year I think could be the best in baseball) and they went 11-1 in the playoffs, and won 8 in a row to end it. The only team I can remember to go 11-1 in the playoffs since the new format was I think either the 98 or 99 Yankees.

[23]

Matt- You know What? I'm really tired of all this sox talk! I sincerely believe that the sox will face injury issues (Thome, Crede, Jenks, Dye, & Gracia) and the reality that they are a good team and not a great one (Minnesota & Cleveland ARE BETTER!). It will be nice for chicago once again to see Chicago's other team to resume its place as 2nd class to the shrine on Clark & Addison.

I would say goodluck...but seeing of how the Indians are going to win the AL central, won't do or mean much.

Go Cubs

[Ryan]

-> 23
You're so bias!
Don't be mad that the SoX have a legitimate shot at repeating and that your beloved Cubbies are at best a 3rd place team.
No Division or Wild Card for the Northside.
Watch Jones become Burnitz II,
Prior & Wood spend time on the DL,
D.Lee comes back to earth,
Dempster becomes JoBo Part 2.
Enough said...
SoX Rule & Cubs Don't!

[Randy]

23: Do you like money ? I do. Why don't we make a bet ? I say the Sox win the division again and I also say that the flubs get nowhere near the playoffs again.

Are you ready to put your money where your know-nothing flubbie fan mouth is ?

[Jason M]

Contreras and Dye for Abreu? The Phillies would be insane to make that deal. And to even suggest that the Phillies could "throw in" Floyd? That's just absurd.

Speaking for Philly fans everywhere I can say there would be rioting in the streets if such a deal went down.

[RumorMonger]

So...fans of both teams think they are giving up too much...

[xxJamesxx]

Rioting in the streets? I dont think so. I think the fanbase is split, something like 65/35 in favor of keeping Abreu.

[Randy]

By the way, I've never in my life lost a bet to a flubs fan.

Once, I won $ 1000 from a flubs fan. He paid up. I'll give him that.It was 2000 when the Sox went and the flubs didn't.

Well, whenever you're ready 23, I'll take your money.

[23]

"Are you ready to put your money where your know-nothing flubbie fan mouth is?"

Hell Yeah, I'll put money down on the Cubbies winning the division and the sux not going anywhere near the post season.
Don't be mad at us cubs fans for your team being overrated!
We just want sux fans to accept the hard-cold reality that the sox aren't a great team.
Oh yeah, we have a manager (Dusty) that is by far a respectable human being/citizen. Guillen is some ignorant big mouth who will be exposed for the trash he really is in 06.
Cubs Win!

[Jason M]

Ok. Maybe no rioting, but there are definitely far more fans not in favor of dealing Abreu the 65%. Contreras is way too inconsistant and Dye is nothing special. Abreu is one of the most consistant right fielders in the game.

[23]

Jason M.
I think the fans of Philly already know the Phils ain't going anywhere in 06 & 07. They're animals anyway so trading away Abreu will only give them an excuse to riot.
Contreras for Abreu is as stupid as
George Bell for Sammy Sosa.
Something the Southside will always remember!

[Jason M]

You come off as a jealous Cub fan. How can you say the Sox are overrated? They just won the WS and have improved their team. The Cubs have a manager that will most likely us Neifi Perez at 2nd base over Todd Walker or Jerry Hairston. They have an unproven closer. They have a 3rd baseman who has had groin problems. And they have a rotation on life support. Not to mention they play in the same division as the Cardinals!

I wouldn't go making any bets that they will go to the playoffs.....

[REM]

This entire thread proves once again that cubs "fans" have peanut sized brains and have no true understanding about baseball.

good luck with jones, eyre, and howry.

as a matter of fact did you notice how the cubs are tryin to replicate the sox, its great.

[Jason M]

That post was directed at "23"

[xxJamesxx]

The Phillies arent going anywhere? They presently have the best top 6 in the NL, but they have a bunch of mediocre pitchers. They will only goes as far as the pitching takes them. Last season, no one was commenting how dominant Chicago's pitching was. They had one guy wiht a career ERA under 4 (Buehrle), and a bunch of other mediocre pitchers.

We'll see how things shape up this season.

[23]

REM - Why would a large market franchise like the cubs want to copy a small market franchise like the sux. You know Kenny took gambles that unfortunately payed off in a season in which the Red Sox, Yanks, Angels, & Twins had an off-year. I know the sux won't be so lucky to go through such weaken teams. REM are you sure you're not Matt? You both sound like Grade A sux morons from Bridgeport. You two need to get a real life and leave that joke of a franchise alone!

[23]

Okay, someone is stealing identities again. Most likely, it's a Sox fan working hard to make Cubs fans look ignorant. The "23" posts in this thread are not legit. This is tremendously irritating. Looks like I'll go find another blog where this doesn't happen on a daily basis. To Ryan, Matt, Jason, etc.- ignore the 23 comments here. I try hard not to be that offensive.

[Randy]

23- my apologies. I knew thet didn't sound like you.

[23]

"Posted by: 23 | February 01, 2006 at 12:23 PM"

Very funny...must be that Matt or REM are pissed off at me. Don't feel bad that the truth hurts.

[23]

Rumor,
I recommend identifying and blocking the IP address from this poster imposter (just one example):
Posted by: 23 | February 01, 2006 at 12:00 PM

[23]

Randy- I didn't say anything that offensive regarding the sox as you guys said about the Cubs. "Cubs are a 3rd place team at best." NO WAY!!!

[23]

Randy,
No apology necessary. I probably would have reacted the same way to that garbage.

[23]

Hey Rumor,
Identify and block this IP address from imposter:
'Posted by: 23 | February 01, 2006 at 10:10 AM"

[23]

Fake 23- At least you're smart enough to remember which poster you copied. I'm shocked.

[Wrigley]

Fake 23- I sure hope your lunch break is over soon so you can go back to selling porn videos and leave the discussion to real baseball fans.

[Kyle]

First off there are way too many dumb Chicago fans on this website. For one the Cubs arent any good. They are medicore at best. If Wood AND Prior both make 30 starts then the Cubs have a shot at winning the Central.

On the other hand the White sox aren't great. They are a good team who got hot at the right time. That being said they are a wild card team at best and I dont think they make the playoff's they had too many pitchers have career years last year and you have to expect them to come back down to earth

[st.PETE ROSE]

"Yea Gavin Floyd is a bust, what other propects do the Phils have that are top tier?"

A bust???

He's only 23 and has just 54 innings of MLB experience.....how does that qualify as a bust... I mean the guy actually has to play first to be considered a bust. Right???
And if that didn't penetrate, just as a small example, check out the early years of Tom Glavine's career.

Plus this deal lies in the lap of Gillick, Williams knows he got all he could from those two and would love to dump two aging, overpaid and past their prime players for one of the best RF's in the game, in the middle of his prime too. The best attribute of Abreu's is his ability to hit for average which makes him more of a value as a long term possibilty.The last thing to go in an aging hitter is his ability to get on base w/ a hit or a walk. Thats why I think if the Whitesox land Abreu he would be there as long as Gullien which could be till the end of Abreu's career...so yes if this is a real proposal then the whitesox are waiting on Gillick.

[Frank Robinson]

So. I have an idea. Let's not talk about the actual post. and mumble about teams that have nothing to do with the trade. for example, wow, yeah abreu is great. but the diamondbacks are so awesome. their fans are the best. example 2. whoa man, the yankees rock! and they all look sooo gooood. it has been reported that I am trading my dignity for 5 seconds with jeter. thats right. oh. and I have an OPS of ten gazillion. but in the end, it doesnt matter, this is a good trade for the phillies. because i win. jeter wins. and random team that has nothing to do in this discussion rocks my world.

[FT]

Get off the "Jermaine Dye is an injury risk" kick folks. Does anyone actually look up the reasons why he has been on the DL so often? Or do you just regugitate things you've read from other misinformed posters? Using recent years as an aggregate for future success is inappropriate. He fouled a ball of his leg and shattered his fibia, he severely seperated his shoulder trying to score, and he broke his thumb diving for a ball. The only actual concern for a recurring injury would be his knee where he tore cartilage playing the OF. If you look at his 3 complete seasons prior to his string of freak accidents, you would get a better idea of the numbers he's quite capable of producing. In fact, he set his season high for stolen bases last year with 11, a possible testiment to the refurbished nature of his legs. I would think there could be a slight allowance for degrading factors such as lingering pain or hesitation doing certain movements and possibly a slight one for age, although early thirties is not that old. In my analysis, which is hardly expert, Dye will likely replicate his numbers from '05, possibly improving his average by 10 points.

[RumorMonger]

Word on Dye not being an injury risk.

And Pete Rose, Abreu definitely ain't in his prime. He'll age well, but he's past his prime.

[Randy]

You guys that say that Sox pitchers/players had career years must not follow the sport.

This is exactly why Sox fans and now, experts are predicting that the Sox could repeat. Because they did NOT have career years.

Buehrle and Garcia had the year they always have. Garland finally showed the improvement that they expected from him for 2 years. El Duque sucked so they'll be much better with Vazquez or McCarthy and Contreras had one good half and he should be able to repeat that.

The bullpen guys did have a couple of career years but the lineup has some guys that will improve like Iguchi, Crede and Uribe.

The ONLY way the Sox were lucky was in few injuries.

[Jason M]

Hey Pete Rose -

"Williams knows he got all he could from those two and would love to dump two aging, overpaid and past their prime players for one of the best RF's in the game, in the middle of his prime too."

You do realize that Dye is only 2 months older then Abreu? I think this is one absurd rumor, but at least know the facts.

[Kyle]

I am with Jason I think this rumor is absurd. I dont doubt that KW offered it but Gillick would have to be an idiot to take it.

[Jake]

To the fake 23,
Here we go again. Another peabrain making us real, intelligent Cub fans look like complete asswipes. I'm the biggest Cub fan, but if you seriously believe that looking at the White Sox and Cubs rosters as of today, the Cubs have a better chance at making the playoffs then you need to stay away from the pipe and bong. I love my Cubbies but realistically looking at them. They would have to have nearly EVERYTHING go right for them to win the division this year. Everything as in no injuries, Murton and Cedeno produce enough offense as rookies, D.Lee can equal his offensive output from last year, Jacque Jones somehow get back to his .285-.300 avg, hope Maddux can win 15 again cause Wood and Miller arent doing it nor do I see Williams or Rusch doing it. Z is a lock, Prior if he can ever stay healthy should get at or near 15 wins. Then you have to hope that Dusty can figure out how to use the bullpen. If all that happens then I could realistically see the Cubs winning the division. Unfortunately the odds of all that happening are slim to none. Regarding the White Sox, just as an outsider looking in, it must be nice to win the world series one year and then come back the next year with a team on paper that looks even better than the one that won the whole thing the year before. So please 23, do all of us including Cub fans like myself and find a different way to get your Jones off besides making stupid, factless absurd posts on here.

[23]

Rumor,
I recommend deleting every post from or related to "23".
This will take care of everyting.

Thanks

[Bdid]

Wow, Philly fans are really funny when it comes to their own team! Top 6 in the NL? Maybe top 6 in PA.! They are not as good as the Braves or Mets, not nearly as good as the Cards, not better than the Cubs. Close to the new dodgers 6. List your top Philly 6, I'd rank them as Rollins, Utley, Bobby A, Burrell, Howard, and Rowand. I'd switch Burrell and Howard, but 3 straight lefties is usually not a good Order. I look at the Braves with Giles, Renteria, Chipper, Andruw, Francoer, and Laroche and see the Braves as Much Better.

[Bdid]

Mets top six are better too...

Reyes, Beltran, Wright, Delgado, Floyd, and Lo Duca will be better too!

Cubs might actually be worse come to think of it... Bell and Aramis are all they can bolster. IMO

Dodgers top six of Furcal, Drew, Kent, Garciaparra, Mueller, and shoot, forget the new CF's name...but he's as good as Rowand.

Cards, They really only need Pujols, but Edmonds, Eckstein and the gang are awfully tough.

[xxJamesxx]

Rollins
Rowand
Abreu
Burrell
Utley
Howard

[xxJamesxx]

thats money.

[Kyle]

I would give the phillies top 6 is probably the 5th best in the NL and not even top 15 in all of baseball my order for nl goes

Mets
Cards
Dodgers
Giants(if bonds is healthy)
Phillies

That being said the cubs arent that good there first 6 is just mediocre

[Kyle]

Now if you want to see a "money" top 6

1. Johnny Damon
2. Derek Jeter
3. Gary Sheffield
4. Alex Rodriguez
5. Hideki Matsui
6. Giambi

those 6 could easily combine for 150+ home runs and a .300+ average

[Bdid]

That's money...yeah, cheap!

If Utley and Howard prove they can do that for a full year (Utley did share w/Palonco early last year) and Burrell proves last year was no fluke, then yeah, they are a top 3 team. I'm just very wary of a team where you had a bunch of questionable players that have a good year and expect a repeat from all. The Mets have mostly proven vets with 2 youngsters. Same with Braves, etc. You are right about the Yanks though...unfortunately they need to score that many to support the geriatric pitching staff!!!

[st.PETE ROSE]

"You do realize that Dye is only 2 months older then Abreu? I think this is one absurd rumor, but at least know the facts."

You're right Kyle, Dye is only two months older. Aging could also be used to suggest that the body is physicaly getting older (or is aging (faster in this case),as opposed to the actual years the person as been alive.
Im sorry I didnt clarify.
and I promise never to do it again.

Rumormonger, 31 is still prime, even though he hurt his swing when he decided to go heavy w/ the weights along w/ the homeruns a few years back. He still has the ability to go 300/20/100/420obp and will for a couple more years. Thats prime...man. And we're both right, Abreu is going to age well. (not running in the field will do this) His approach at the plate is one of the more durable ones in baseball. Hitting the gaps to all fields, driving in runs and drawing walks is going to make him an asset in his later years when his body tells him, that hole in left is alot easier then swinging for the fence.
Why do you think Abreu never dives.....he's saving himself so he can play into his 60's.

[st.PETE ROSE]

Bdid, are we still funny, its not like he said 1 or even top 3, I couldnt tell by your last post but you basically agreed. Right??
Top 6 in NL right??

[Kyle]

Pete Rose- Abreu is a great player. My phillie fan roomate always complains about him being a chump under pressure but whatever.

**
Bdid, are we still funny, its not like he said 1 or even top 3, I couldnt tell by your last post but you basically agreed. Right??
Top 6 in NL right??
**

What on earth does that statement mean
xxJamesxx claimed that the top 6 in the Philadelphias order is the best in the NL Bdid was saying that the phillies first 6 were good but the amount of questions about there performance makes them less than the best. No one is trashing them hell I said they had the 5th best top 6 in the NL

[st.PETE ROSE]

Your actually right this time Kyle I did misread the post....doesnt happen often.
you got this one right...it seems pretty nonsensical in retrospect.
But Im proud of you for spotting it and pointing it out ...you keep up the good work.
Do you think I insulted you b/c I clarified what i said about aging? I told you I appreciated your attempt at giving me the facts.
Don't try so hard

[st.PETE ROSE]

woops got that one wrong too

[st.PETE ROSE]

Sorry, to whoever ...you guys all sound the same and I just got caught up in the bickering. Half the time you guys are talking about baseball and the other half calling each other asshole.

[23]

"Rumor,
I recommend deleting every post from or related to "23".
This will take care of everyting."

It should be easy enough to simply identify all of the idiotic posts, check that IP, and delete only the post from you. That will really take care of everything.

[Kyle]

Why do people on this site have to be childish just post under your own damn name

[Bdid]

St. Pete, I'm glad Kyle answered your question...my question to you is...

Do you agree with James that they are tops in NL from 1-6 or are you more along my thinking 4-8 best?

I've explained my reasoning...just a limited pool of MLB success on that Philly top 6. I love their potential though!

[RumorMonger]

No kidding Kyle, I don't have time to babysit

[23]

A true log-in / password system would mean that you wouldn't have to babysit, wouldn't it? Is that hard to do?

[RumorMonger]

It's not hard to do, but I'd prefer not to create a barrier for new visitors. I like people being able to drop in any leave a comment without obligation to leave an email address.

It's just a few who abuse.

[A-ROD]

Maybe you (Monger) should consider a log-in / password system. This way "23" will stop crying. You people need to learn how to act much more mature.

[Bryan]

alright, i'm gonna put this to rest. the Phillies with abreu even have one of the top NL teams. here's 1-6 in the lineup

1. Jimmy Rollins
2. Aaron Rowand
3. Chase Utley
4. Bobby Abreu
5. Pat Burrell
6. Ryan Howard

the only thing killing is David Bell at 7 and Mike Lieberthal at 8 and of course the pitchers spot. but i gotta say Bobby Abreu IS NOT all he's cracked up to be. his numbers come in the early innings and when he comes up in the clutch he's a sure strikeout. a team would be stupid to give up their ace for abreu according to that but most teams don't know that so they'd want to, including the White Sox. which is y i'd love the rumored deal just becuz we'd be givin up a bat that doesn't come through in the clutch for a newly established ace. and dye "maybe" a downgrade in RF but who could be worse? abreu isn't exactly the best RF nor the best hitter in that position so dye i think would be great as well.

[Bdid]

Wow Bryan, thank you for putting it to rest with absolutely no argument. Again, as I've said, the Phils have potential to be a very good offense, but you'd need Utley to repeat last years perfomance, Howard to prove he can play a full season, and Burrell to match his career year even with the fences pushed back. Bobby A. is very good, but he started to hit a slide in the second half last year. And Rowand wasn't exactly a stud out in ChiTown...the reason they were so willing to trade him was because they have some of the games best CF prospects, no because Thome is great.

[23]

A "maturity" lesson from A-ROD? That's comical.

[Vinsanity]

I know people find every which way to prove their team is the best. But stop with the best top 6. Last I checked, you had to bat 9 guys in order, not 6.

[23]

I agree with Bdid on Rowand. Although I do think the Phils got the better of the deal (if Thome can't stay healthy all season), I think Rowand, by association with a WS team, is overrated at the plate. His defense is very good, but there are a lot of players in the NL I'd rather have hitting in the 2-hole.

[KWs]

If Rowand is in the 2 hole in Philadelphia there are larger problems than whether or not you have Abreu. Aaron Rowand is no where near a 2 hole hitter. He strikes out way too much, as soon as pitchers in the NL learn to throw him a down in slider you will see runner after runner left at first without being advanced into scoring position, and he was not able to get down some bunts in the clutch. I think his offensive numbers will not be as bad as last years or as good as 2004s.

[kdhargo]

Being a lifetime White Sox fan, I have to respond to the last post(s) regarding Aaron Rowand.

I am not sure how he can be coined "overrated" at the plate since when any knowledgeable baseball fan speaks of Aaron Rowand, it is always about these things: excellent defense in CF and a set of brass balls and massive heart/pride. He will not set the world on fire offensively, which is why the Sox felt he was expendable. They feel that, if he plays to his capabilities, Brian Anderson can at least match Rowand offensively, and the hope is that he can play a solid CF -- this being his first shot at a full year and all.

Noone got "ripped off" in the Rowand/others for Thome/cash swap -- each team got exactly what they wanted. Rowand will be a mediocre batter who will not draw many walks and play excellent defense, and if Phillies fans have any baseball IQ whatsoever, they will embrace Rowand as a balls-to-the wall, gutsy player who will put it all on the line for you for every inning of every game that he plays. On the flip-side, Thome should produce excellent power numbers (especially at the Cell) should he remain healthy for a majority of the season.

[Bdid]

Good post Kdhargo-

I certainly never ripped Rowand. Just simply stated that he is not going to be a great hitter...especially in the 2 whole. I thought both sides did pretty well for themselves. But I just can't include him as part of the "best top 6" in baseball argument. He's a very good player though.

[kdhargo]

Bdid:
But whom is putting Rowand in the #2 slot, the fan/poster or the Phillies? I personally wouldn't put him there w/ his OBP and the type of hitter he is. When he's on (see: 2004 season) he is a decent #6 hitter; when he is doing more closely to what to expect out of him on a consistent basis (see: 2005 season) he is a #7-#9 hitter. Except, [sarcasm]those dang NL'ers haven't incorporated the DH rule yet[/sarcasm] so I wouldn't expect to see him at #9 (duh), nor would I really want him in the #8 spot, as the #8 hitter in the NL needs to 'keep the inning alive so the pitcher doesn't bat first the next inning.' Therefore, he's best suited as a #7 I suppose.

[xxJamesxx]

Sorry I havent been back to defend my comments. I did in fact say that 1-6, the Phillies were the best in the NL, and I stand by it. A few of the arguments just dont make sense.

* Utley and Howard have to play a full season before we know they can do it.....?

Well, by that token, Floyd and Lo Duca need to stay healthy all season and proven they can do it. Lo Duca was playing on one leg for two months last season and brought Florida down with him, and Floyd has missed time nearly every season with various injuries.

Bill James thinks Ryan Howard will hit 40 HR this year, and Chase Utley is being projected by every site out there to be the best offensive second baseman in baseball this season. He isnt a rookie, he got a good share of playing time in 2004, and he still logged only about 15-20 fewer ABs this year than Jeff Kent, even though he wasnt playing every day for the first two months.

Rollins scored 115 runs last year, and stolen 41 bases at an 87% success rate. Rowand is a career .340 or .350 hitter when batting in the #2 spot in the lineup, which is where hes going to be this year. Abreu's hitting line in "close and late" situations over the last three seasons:

.288/.431/.464

Average with runners in scoring position

.329/.450/.566

Average post all star break

.296/.408/.468

Take some time and read up before making stupid claims. Burrell has had two great seasons, one average season, and one really awful season in the last four. His 2004 saw him get real hot to start, then really trail off. In 2005, he again started hot, and though he cooled off, he still finished with some of the best numbers of his career, and was top 5 in the league in RBI.

Howard hit 22 HR last year in only 312 AB. He had a huge September, a time when pitchers should have been "figuring him out", and he even started to get some better swings vs LHP. He'll get 500 ABs this year and hit 35+ HR. Utley should have won the Silver Slugger last season, as his numbers were superior to Kent's, almost across the board. He struggled against LHP for the first half of the season when he was learning to adjust, but he finished the season with a .348 OB% against LHP, which was comporable to Bobby Abreu's. 7 of his 28 HR also came against LHP, which shows hes figuring it out, and will only get better, which is kind of scary.

If you match up that top 6 with any other from the NL, its very close, and will be completely subjective, but I think the only team that really has the depth is New York, and even they have some question marks. David Bell sucks, but he will be platooned with Nunez, and Lieberthal is still a league average catcher offensively.

[xxJamesxx]

>>>Bdid:
But whom is putting Rowand in the #2 slot<<<<

Me. In 200 AB's in the #2 hole from 2003-2005, his line

.366/.390/.557

Hitting 6th: (200 AB)

.272/.337/.420

[23]

crap. that's a pretty convincing line.

[Kyle]

.947 OPS in the two spot I would take that any day. Did those numbers come last year?

[Bdid]

Jimmy Boy, I've followed Burrell's career from the time he was the next superstar play in Reading (I'm from just outsid of Philly), and I KNOW he has been a HUGE disappointment up until last year. I drafted him in my Fantasy league for 3 straight seasons until last year, and every year that I did he sucked. Bill James predicts...blah, blah, blah...I don't really care what he predicts...last year people were predicting a .300 ba, 35 HR's, and 120 RBI from Beltran...didn't quite pan out did it??

You should really take a close look at all you are saying. To claim that a team that young and inexperienced will be the greatest in the NL is total nonsense. It is totally worthless talking to you.

By the way, check out the first two hundred at bats by Shane Spencer, they were better than Rowand, and Spencer wasn't that great in the end. I can't wait until the season starts so that you can watch your Hackers lose 95 games.

[Bdid]

and jimmy, i do agree w/you on rollins...just not the rest. I'm reserving judgement on Utley until after this year. I remember he struggled against lefties. I also remember him coming up with some huge hits. So maybe he'll trun out...but a lot of people feel Howard will regress. He's a mistake hitter, and if anyone around him struggles he'll get less and less to drive. Again, this is my last post on this, but I can't wait to watch the Phillies Flounder.

[xxJamesxx]

Bdid,

thanks for your unfounded opinions. Ill file them right alongside all the other garbage Ive already forgotten about today.

[hsvj60]

I think the tade would help both clubs if the Sox get Hammel instead of Gavin. Look to say that either side is getting over is an overstatement. I understand everyone always over values their own stock. This in reality would be good for both squads. To say Abreu is worth more than Contreras and Dye is absurd. Just because he's Phils best best player doesn't mean he's worth more. If he joined the Sox he would not be our best player. Besides we gave you boys a great player in Rowand for Thome and I do believe you now have a better all around player in him than what you guys had before.