Yankees win Igawa bid

Looks like the Yankees won the bidding to negotiate with Japanese lefty Kei Igawa for $25 million.  It was only a matter of time before Cashman threw some money around.

In other news, the Brewers are closing in on a deal with Craig Counsell.  (I'm not a fan: once around was enough for me.)  That's right on the heels of hearing that Counsell was destined for San Diego; now, it would seem that Counsell's original deal--two years of playing second base for the Padres--now will go to Tony Graffanino, who Doug Melvin had wanted to bring back to Milwaukee as a utility guy.  The Brewers also resigned Brian Shouse, who was eligible for arbitration.

By Jeff Sackmann

Comments

[pinetarhand]

LOLOLOLOL WOOHOO!!! I was hoping Hendry wasn't that stupid. I feel much better now.

[murderersrow]

There ya go

[jskohl]

The Yanks only throw $30 million at Matzusaka, but $25 million for Igawa, who will probably be a no.4 starter at best? I don't get it.

[tyler]

dont worry pinetarhand, henry will overpay for atleast 2 more players before the winter is over

[kevybo1]

i wanted the Cubs to get him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[pinetarhand]

yep, but at least it'll be players that have a little potential instead of this quack.

[murderersrow]

Thing is, with igawa, $5-6 million a year will get it done. Red Sox are looking at $12-15 million a year for matsuzaka, bringing the total cost of the contract between $85 and 100 million for 3 years. $50 million for 5 years doesn't look too bad in this market.

[pinetarhand]

"i wanted the Cubs to get him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

I love sarcasm.....right?

[kevybo1]

he's going to have a better year than Matsasuca

[murderersrow]

Could easily get more wins. Boston's lineup is still quite questionable, especially with the apparent inevitability of Ramirez being traded. No one in that lineup worries anybody, except for ortiz. Hard to see the sox keeping pace this year, especially if Beckett continues to get creamed by good AL teams

[desturbd1]

"Thing is, with igawa, $5-6 million a year will get it done. Red Sox are looking at $12-15 million a year for matsuzaka, bringing the total cost of the contract between $85 and 100 million for 3 years. $50 million for 5 years doesn't look too bad in this market."

Agreed. If it is $50MM for 4 or 5 years. But some scouts are REALLY low on the guy...rotoworld questions his ability to even make it as a starter in the AL East. Only time will tell.

"he's going to have a better year than Matsuzaka."

Dustin Pedroia is going to have a better year then Robinson Cano.

See? I can say things that make no sense and then fail to explain myself too!

[pinetarhand]

Matsusuca???? Wow! I don't think he'll have a better year. Nothing he's done in Japan shows that he'll be better. His own countrymen think he will not make it in the majors. (I know it was a small sample), but MLB players said he had nothing special during the World Baseball Classic. Either way, $25 million could be better spent even in this market. I'm no expert though. I just hope they scouted him really good to see what he can do. Why else would a team spend $25 million on him? Oh yeah, Yankees have to keep up with Boston & visa versa.

[kevybo1]

I don'tknow why the Cubs are going fter Jason Schmidt when BARRY ZITO IS STILL AVAILABLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[DentalPlan]

"Could get more wins." Yeah, maybe Kirk Reuter could too. What's the point?

You know what's silly about this? Day in and day out we've basically heard nothing but mediocrity about Igawa, now, hold the phone, he's gone to the Yankees, we have to pretend he's as good as Matsuzaka.

I wish he had gone to the Mets or Royals or anybody else, at least we wouldn't have to lie. Oh well. I predict Igawa wins 30 games. Sigh.

[DunkinDonuts]

"he's going to have a better year than Matasuca"

I reckon he will, because last I checked, Matasuca was bagging groceries in Quetzlcoatl, dreaming of one day leaving Mexico for the big leagues.

If you mean Matsuzaka, then check your spelling and try again before trying to render an opinion that you hope will carry some weight.

[nrmax88]

one thing is now yankee fans cant criticize bosox about mats. Ok heres the thing though. I have this strange little feeling that the yankees knew what they were doing getting igawa. I have a feeling now that they really think igawa will be something special. This can be a huge pickup, or a big mistake i guess. Anybody know what the next highest bid was? Maybe theyfigured Igawa can put up zito similar numbers for a much smaller contract. Who knows. I think Cashman had this up his sleeve for a while though.

[desturbd1]

"No one in that lineup worries anybody, except for ortiz."

Uhh...Manny is, at least for the moment, still in Boston. And a healthy Drew isn't exactly Alex Gonzalez. But yeah, NY still looks like they have the edge...but I think Boston's got the higher upside. And statheads love WMP's chances of having a breakout year this season.

Oh...and they still haven't actually finished building a team. So let's reserve judgment, at least for the moment. :)

[kevybo1]

it would have been pretty funy to see the Royals winning the rights for him.

[pinetarhand]

I have a feeling the Cubs are going to get to the playoffs, wanna argue that one anyone?

[desturbd1]

"I have a feeling now that they really think igawa will be something special. This can be a huge pickup, or a big mistake i guess. Anybody know what the next highest bid was? Maybe theyfigured Igawa can put up zito similar numbers for a much smaller contract. Who knows. I think Cashman had this up his sleeve for a while though."

I think it's either that, or the Yankes realized they desperately needed an innings eater, which is what Igawa is supposed to be. That, along with an apparent adjustment in FA pricing this offseason, may well have been enough to force Cashman's hand a bit.

[nrmax88]

Dunkindonuts hahahahahaha that shit was hilarious good shit. Murderers row i kind of agree with cashman rather spending 50 mil over 5 years for this guy, thinking he would be better off then lilly or one of these other 2nd tier starters who will make more then 10mil a year. I can see that. I agree though disturbd. We have to wait. We dont know what either one of these guys will do in the bigs.

[tyler]

JD drew doesnt scare me in the least

Yankees have had good results with scouting asian players in recent years. you can bring up Irabu, but that was 10 years ago, they are much more developed in their marketing and scouting over seas

[JakeOD21]

Not sure who "Matsasuca" is.

As for Daisuke Matsuzaka, there's a huge difference between him and Igawa. Matsuzaka can flash five different pitches, and is it worst a #2 pitcher over here. Igawa, on the other hand, throws a soft fastball and a good curve...and that's about it. Sounds like a reliever to me, #4 starter at best. When you consider that the Phils just spent $24M for Adam Eaton, $25M+a contract for Igawa seems like a lot.

I'm not saying there's no chance he's better than Matsuzaka, but the odds aren't in his favor.

murderersrow, the Sox are in flux right now, but I would not say they'll go into next year with ortiz being the only bat that "worries anybody." If they trade Manny, they should replace much of his offense with Drew, Lugo, WMP and probably a young bat (Loney, LaRoche?) in that deal. I would be worried if I was a lefty facing Pena in Fenway.

Not as worried, however, as I would be if I was in the Monster Seats.

[ArodSucksAtLife]

He said win more games than Matsuzaka not be a better pitcher.... Derek Lowe won more games than Roy Oswalt. Steve Trachsel and Roy Oswalt won the same amount of games. Maybe Matsuzaka comes over pitches light Santana and the Red Sox score 0 runs for him and he loses 30. Igawa comes over pitches like Jaret Wright, and the Yankees score 14 runs a game.

Yes I know thats not what he meant, and he was just being a ass, but it COULD happen

[bdid]

I am SOOOOO happy Omar is our GM. He didn't get silly with this one. Good pick up Cash. You'll spend 50 million for a relief pitcher. Thank you Omar...but, hurry up and sign Zito to some UnGodly amount of dough...nothing could look worse than the Dmat thing money wise! At least Barry has thrown a ball in the MLB.

[murderersrow]

First, I said with Ramirez' most likely being traded. Second: "And statheads love WMP's chances of having a breakout year this season."... Weren't they saying the same thing last year about this guy, when he was traded to boston, that all he needed to have to be a big hitter was the ABs. Well, he had 'em and was nothing special. Cost them games with his defense, or should i say lack thereof, as well.

[nrmax88]

disturbd but if the case was cashman feeling like his hand was being forced, then why not offer Zito 16 mil a year. I know its a 6mil a year difference, but this is the yankees.
I dont know though, im sure they had him scouted out well before the bid on him

[JakeOD21]

he didnt have the ABs like you might think. He played CF until Crisp came back, and then he went down with a wrist injury. He wasn't really the same after that. WMP this year when he did play showed a better patience at the plate, and if Manny gets dealt, he'll probably get the full year. He's still pretty young, mind you.

[pinetarhand]

who is igawa's agent

[pinetarhand]

WMP could very well be the next Sammy Sosa. Glad he's not the Cubs problem.

[bsox21]

"Dustin Pedroia is going to have a better year then Robinson Cano.

See? I can say things that make no sense and then fail to explain myself too!"

That's great stuff right there.

desurbd1 will never admit it, but that's my influence right there. that's totally something i would say.

[DunkinDonuts]

"Maybe Matsuzaka comes over pitches light Santana and the Red Sox score 0 runs for him and he loses 30. Igawa comes over pitches like Jaret Wright, and the Yankees score 14 runs a game."

If he comes over and pitches like Jaret Wright, the Yankees offense better crank it up to 15 or 16 runs a game. Just saying. If you had swiss cheese for a right shoulder, you'd want two touchdowns of run support WITH the two-point conversions.

[nrmax88]

Jake i agree i was just going to say that. WMP had like somewhere around 250 -260 ab's, maybe in the 270 range. Im not exactly sure i dont have his stats right here, but i know he hit 300 and his ops was atleast 930 in his limited play. I think he had like 10 Hr 40 rbi. In 600 AB, that probably translates to 20/85 or 90. He is now a year older and stronger, with a year more experience. I wouldnt say it is at all out of the question for him to go 25/100 with a 950 ops.

[tyler]

this is a good deal when you consider the insane contracts that guys like Lilly and Meche are going to get

[pinetarhand]

He'll also rival Dunn in K's & bad defense. Not that Dunn is worthless, but if WMP's average drops, then his OBP will be at about the worthless level.

[murderersrow]

so 25/90 is a monster year? david delucci had a better year than that in 2005.

[tyler]

his agent is Arn Tellem... the same agent as Hideki Matsui... i think thats a plus

[pinetarhand]

It's only a good deal in comparison if he doesn't suck. His ability is still suspect. I hate Lilly & Meche, but if I had to pay the same money, I'd probably bet on them before Igawa.

[nrmax88]

WMP is also like only 24 or 25 and has only played 1 year in fenway, not the easiest OF to play. Adam Dunn is in a tiny ball park, couldnt run the 60 foot run to the wall to catcha fly ball,and is basically a 1B now. Different situations. WMP will put up sick numbers in boston with the green monster help

[tyler]

again, none of us know anything about this guy. you can disagree with me, but with the recent sucess of Hideki Matsui and Chein Ming Wang, I trust the yankees over-seas scouting department

[bsox21]

Tyler - Agreed.

[pinetarhand]

Good point Tyler. I was taking that into consideration, but who signed that big hyped pitcher from Japan that ended up really stinking bad a while back?

[nrmax88]

where the hell did i say that was a monster year. He is only a kid dellucci is like 34, Dellucci never even came close to a 90 rbi year. Ever

[pinetarhand]

I meant I WASN'T taking that into consideration. Oops

[bsox21]

Scouting report on Igawa.

Based on his stats and this scouting report, seems like the Yanks made a nice move to me.

http://prospectinsider.wordpress.com/2006/11/11/scouting-report-kei-igawa-lhp/

[tyler]

Like I said earlier, that was almost 10 years ago. I think every team (including the yankees) have made large strides in developing scouting over-seas. It's still cashman running the show, but I'm sure alot of the scouting department has changed since Irabu was signed.

[pinetarhand]

You're right. I'm sure they've gotten better at judging them over the years. I really couldn't remember his name though.

[bsox21]

The scouting is much deeper now. You can't even compare.

If his slider breaks as hard as they say and if his arm action is good on a 10 mph difference between his change and his curve, and if he is durable, that's a nice pitcher to have as ur #4.

[pinetarhand]

His stats are only comparable to minor league stats since Japanese ball is considere AAA+. They're still valuable of course, but you can't bet the bank (or $25 mil) on them. A high 92 mph heater will get murdered here in the States unless it has good movement. He can't be a power pitcher with only 92 mph

[pinetarhand]

If they're only counting on a #4, then it's hard to be dissapointed. But for at least $50 mil when all is said & done, don't you think they're counting on a little bit more?

[sudansensation]

good news for the cubs that the yanks signed this guy. now we can focus on getting a proven pitcher in Jason Schmidt

[tyler]

judging by that scouting report, it looks like a good move... although they are probably overpaying.

But hey, they havent spent any money so far this offseason, and they saved some money in the Sheffield and Jered Wright deals, so I dont think its a big deal.

[bsox21]

I meant change and his fastball, obviously.

[papi4prez]

David Ortiz calls WMP "Little Papi" because he reminds him so much of himself in his early years: young, strong, undeniable power, but limited patience and a high K rate. Just like most scouts, Big Papi believes that once WMP gains plate discipline like he (Ortiz) did, with an everyday job and 550-600 ABs, Wily Mo will be a monster.

[bsox21]

Tyler,

Factor in the savings on luxry tax and marketing revenue in Japan, the yankees will make out with this deal.

25 million is nothing.

If he averages out to less than 10 mil per, I'll view it as a win for the yankees.

[desturbd1]

"desurbd1 will never admit it, but that's my influence right there. that's totally something i would say."

Oh please...like you have the market cornered on sarcasm. :)

"again, none of us know anything about this guy. you can disagree with me, but with the recent sucess of Hideki Matsui and Chein Ming Wang, I trust the yankees over-seas scouting department"

And that's fine...but I trust the fact that every scouting report I've ever read on the guy puts his ceiling at a 3-4 starter, at the absolute best. Maybe New York knows something nobody else on the planet seems to...I'll at least admit the possibility.

"so 25/90 is a monster year? david delucci had a better year than that in 2005."

To be fair, he did call for a 950 OPS. Which would be a little hard for him to do with only 25 HR's, but would qualify as a pretty damn good season. Anyway if Pena gets a full-time gig, he hits at least 30-35, easy. He showed more last season then in either of the 2 previous years. Contact and walk rate went up, and K's went down. I'd also point out that Pena already had a 25 HR season once...in 2004, when he banged out 26 in only 336 AB's. Of course, all his other numbers sucked. But again, he showed a good deal of improvement in 06 and excellent character as well. He never complained about his playing time, said all the right things in interviews...seemed like a great fit in Boston. I remember reading about a friendship he'd developed with Ortiz, who was said to be spending a great deal of time with him working on his mechanics and eye at the plate.

Anyway, back to Igawa...that scouting report Bsox linked too is interesting. But like pinetar said, it doesn't sound like the expectations are very high. Once again...Igawa looks to me like a far bigger question mark then Matsuzaka. And I don't think that's really up for debate.

[desturbd1]

"Oh please...like you have the market cornered on sarcasm. :)"

Heh, my bad...I meant to say bitterness and spite.

[tyler]

I agree bosox, I dont think the money will be an issue at all

[bsox21]

The aggressiveness of forecasting someone as a 3-4 starter depends on the team.

Saying he can be a 3-4 starter for the YANKEES and comparing him to Jarrod Washburn are pretty optimistic views if u ask me.

A 3-4 for the Pirates is a different story.

A 3-4 starter for the Pirates would be a minor league pitcher for the yankees.

Phillip Hughes wuold be the Ace of the Pirates right now, and he's battling for the 5 slot for the Yanks.

I like Igawa based on what I read and his stats, altho the 1.50 WHIP in 2005 seems strange.

[tyler]

And that's fine...but I trust the fact that every scouting report I've ever read on the guy puts his ceiling at a 3-4 starter, at the absolute best. Maybe New York knows something nobody else on the planet seems to...I'll at least admit the possibility

- so whats the problem if he is a 3rd or 4th starter? Isnt that what the Yankees need?

If this were the Mariners who are looking for an Ace it would be a different story

[tyler]

haha yeah you beat me to the punch bosox

[levelboss]

just looked at the box score of one of the Japan/MLB All-Star Series games earlier this month.. check out Igawa's game stats..

IP: 6.0
H: 5
R: 2
ER: 2
BB: 6
SO: 4
HR: 1 (->David Wright)

i think that's not bad at all considering he went up against mlb all-stars; Igawa can eat innings whilst the Yankee bats crush offensively

[bsox21]

Based on his stats and that scouting report, I can't see him having difficulty posting a 4.25 ERA or better, with a 2 or 2.5 K/BB ratio.

If he does that for 200 innings, this will be a great pick up for the Yanks.

[Baseballfan79]

horrible signing I think he ends up with a 5 era range this year.

[bsox21]

levelboss,

add that igawa has already pitched a full season and those numbers look even better.

[pinetarhand]

WMP strikeout rate. 2004 around 32% of the time, 2005 around 37% of the time, 2006 around 33% of the time. He still K's about the same & walks very little. If he can keep his average up, then he'll be very good, if he can't, then he's just a brainless masher like Dunn without the good OBP.

[levelboss]

thx bsox21; yep, that's even better

i think Igawa is mlb-caliber

[desturbd1]

Levelboss...those numbers are god-awful. So you better hope that's not what he does all year. He won't be posting a 3 ERA if his WHIP is 1.83.

And bsox, if his stats and scouting report transfer to a 4.25 ERA or better...what's that mean for Daisuke? Heh. Low 3's? 4.25 is pushing it...I think NY would be pleased if he throws 200+ and posts an ERA under 4.75.

[pinetarhand]

Isn't the Japan/MLB all star series kinda like the NFL All-star game? Hard to judge off of that alone. Plus the MLB players haven't played in around a month so they'd be rusty.

[levelboss]

for a #4 or 5 starter, i think Igawa will do just fine.. espcially considering he'll have the best run-support in the mlb

[nickjs21]

Well, like I've been harping on, the Yankees have been ignoring the Asian market for far too long. It's really been hurting them financially, too. I'm glad they decided to finally make the plunge.

And I just want to retread back to something bdid said... "I am SOOOOO happy Omar is our GM. He didn't get silly with this one. Good pick up Cash. You'll spend 50 million for a relief pitcher. Thank you Omar..."

Leave it to a Mets fan to use this situation as a reason why their GM is fantastic. Not like the Mets may have been outbid or anything.

IMO, I wish the Indians had gotten him. Could have made Westbrook extremely expendable.

[tyler]

yeah pintarhand, but niether had the japanese pitchers

[pinetarhand]

So looking at that game & trying to predict what he'll do, He should end up with 200 BB's & 132 K's while allowing about 32 HR's. I'm just havin fun here.

[pinetarhand]

"yeah pintarhand, but niether had the japanese pitchers" I'm sorry, but I must have gotten lost somewhere. What is this referring to?

[nickjs21]

"IMO, I wish the Indians had gotten him. Could have made Westbrook extremely expendable."

Forgot to add -- Westbrook might be a good comparable for Igawa in his MLB career (excluding his first year, since it will probably be an anomaly either way). An innings eater, ceiling at 15 wins, puts a lot of balls in play, pretty good command, ERA between 4-5.20. The only difference is that Igawa isn't a groundballer, which could cause more runs.

[bsox21]

Matsuzaka could totally post a low 3's ERA.

I don't see why you think he couldn't. He certainly has the stuff.

If Matsuzaka fails to be at least a #2 caliber pitcher, it would be more due to problems adapting than a lack of talent.

Baseball America calls Matsuzaka a top 10 pitcher in the world.

[tyler]

The Japan/MLB all star series

[pinetarhand]

You'd take this guy for at least $50 mil over 5 years over Westbrook right now? Maybe I'm overvaluing Westbrook, but I think you're undervaluing him.

[bsox21]

Nick,

"Well, like I've been harping on, the Yankees have been ignoring the Asian market for far too long."

Where the hell do u get this impression?

Matsui?? Irabu?? Wang??

Are u retarded?

[tyler]

Westbrook blows

[pinetarhand]

I figured Nick was just being sarcastic

[desturbd1]

"I don't see why you think he couldn't. He certainly has the stuff."

I do think he could, he does have the stuff...but I expect his first season to be a little more, shall we say, human. Mid-3's, realistically. I'm a cynic, what can I say...so my expectations for Igawa are tempered a bit as well.

[pinetarhand]

Westbrook blows? His ERA was 16th in the AL which means he would basically be a #2 for any team in the AL. Put him in the NL & if his ERA drops the same as other AL to NL players does, and he'd be at least a #2 for most teams there too. Igawa's best possible projection might be a #2, but he's probably just a #3 or #4. I digress, Westbrook is better.

[quintjs]

I just read this and think that the Yankees are trying to make up for Matsuzaka. They just throw money at a problem at hope for the best.

I kinda know thats not true, because they have succeeded so much, but i cannot shake that impression.

Some people are down on Boston's lineup too. Even if they trade Manny, they can still score enough runs for Matsuzaka (who will require a lot less than other pitchers)

Josh Beckett was alright in his first year in the AL, with a lot of quality starts. His ERA was so high because when he got hit, he really got hit. 8 runs in 2 innings etc. He will not repeat those feats all too often in 2007.

I just think that pitching wins, and the Red Sox have a great staff, and the Yankees have.. ?

What is the justification for this bid? Its pretty high too.

Its going to be really funny if Pedroia wins a batting title or something, and has a better year than Cano.

The thing with Igawa, and Matsuzka is really they need quality pitches, Matsuzaka has at least 5/6.

Igawa did well against that MLB team but two things to note. 1) Both sets of players were at the end of the season and 2) What happens to Igawa when people see what he has? get used to him?

I think that is why people are questioning him as an MLB player, I do not know enough about him.

[pinetarhand]

He's put up over 200 innings 4 years running while keeping his ERA pretty close to the same (anywhere from 3.38 to 4.49). He is the model for a consistent & underrated player. I just can't say enough. I hope the Cubs can trade for him (4th in GB to FB ration too)

[desturbd1]

"Its going to be really funny if Pedroia wins a batting title or something, and has a better year than Cano."

Heh...you should have read my next line, bud. Was totally joking there, Cano's ceiling scares me a bit.

But thank you for noticing the same thing I've been screaming about since September...Beckett's 2006 was not nearly as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Lots of QS, totally earned his wins...but roughly 1/4 of the time, got absolutely hammered bad enough to skew his overall stats. Gotta expect this to level out next season, and if it does...a 3.5 ERA wouldn't surprise me even a little bit.

[bsox21]

pinetar,

he isn't joking.

he posted it on other threads.

the guy is retarded.

[pinetarhand]

Wow! I like to reserve my judgement about calling people retarded though. Maybe he's just really drunk?

[Teetz]

I also hope the Cubs can snag Westbrook away from the Indians. The guy would probably be the 3rd best starter on the market if he was a free agent right after Matsuzaka, Schmidt

[nrmax88]

Retarded, Drunk, whats the difference. Being drunk is like temporarily being retarded.

[bsox21]

The Yankees might be responding to the asking price for shitty pitching this offseason.

I can see this happening:

- Yanks call Lilly.

- Lilly asks for 5 years @ $53 million.

- Yanks hang up and start an email thread throughout the yankees organization.

people begin to create Ted Lilly video montages of him getting absolutely rocked.

- Yanks call Meche.

- Meche asks for....

- Yanks hand up, realizing that he sucks.

- Yanks call Zito.

- Zito asks 7 years @ 90 million.

- Yanks refuse to pay $100K per walk Zito surrenders.

- Yanks bid $25 mil for Igawa.

[bsox21]

pinetar,

there's a history with this moron.

[murderersrow]

Beckett was absolutely atrocious against the quality teams in the AL. Against the yankees, blue jays, white sox, and tigers he was bad. His quality starts came against bad competition. Three QS against those teams in 12 starts. Not #1 or #2 material.

[pinetarhand]

bsox, hilarious.

I kinda like being drunk every once in a while. When I do something retarded then, at least its funny. When I do it sober, then I kinda just feel.....retarded.

[nrmax88]

like teetz?

[tyler]

Sorry but Ill take a chance on a Japanese pitcher thats still some what of a mystery over Jake Westbrook. IMO hes the last thing the yankees need.

[bsox21]

Beckett is more overrated than Eli Manning, and that's saying something.

He's a good #4, and an average #3.

He throws hard and the media hypes him up. Thats why these people think he's good.

[Paul AKA twinsfan]

Sounds like a left handed Brad Radke to me. If he can be that good it'd be a achievement.

[redsox0909]

the redsox are talking to Hideki Okajima from Japan. They are talking about a two year deal. Hes 30 years old and posted a 2-2 record with a 2.14 ERA Good idea by Theo. Since there aren't any great free agent reliever, why not tape back into the Japanese market. PLUS HES A LEFTY

[murderersrow]

Beckett's W/L against quality teams
Tor - 7IP, 1ER - W
Tor - 7.1IP, 5ER - ND
Tor - 5IP, 1ER - ND
NYY - 7IP, 3ER - W
Tor - 4.2IP, 7ER - L
NYY - 1.1IP, 7ER - L
CWS - 6IP, 5ER - W
DET - 6IP, 5ER - L
NYY - 5.2IP, 9ER - L
TOR - 5IP, 3ER - L
NYY - 6IP, 2ER - W

[bsox21]

tyler,

we disagree regarding westbrook.

I think he's better than he's shown.

If he gains more consistency, i think he could be wang-ish.

I think someoe like Dave Duncan could turn Westbrook into a nice pitcher.

[tyler]

wow those are some pretty shitty numbers

[tyler]

If he gains more consistency, i think he could be wang-ish.

woahhhhh... I thought Igawa was a stretch... Wang-ish? I'm gunna have to STRONGLY disagree

[murderersrow]

"the redsox are talking to Hideki Okajima from Japan."
Heard the yankees were also in discussions with him. Whoever gets him will get a nice lefty reliever.

[bsox21]

I compare Westbrook to Wang becuz Westbrook induces tons of ground balls when he's going good.

I like Westbrook. He needs to find a way to be more consistent.

Webb is another sinkerballer that just needed to gain consistency.

The problem with sinkerballers is when they dont have it, they get lit up.

Wang and Webb have always had this type of talent. They jus eliminated the really bad starts/innings they used to have.

I think Westbrook is in this mold, but not quite as good.

A poor man's Webb/Wang if you will.

[murderersrow]

On a completely unrelated note, was looking over a few teams rosters, and what is San Fran up to this offseason? Their depth chart is funny as hell because they have nobody under contract. Sabean should probably get off his ass and stop worrying about Ramirez and work on signing multiple free agents.
http://sanfrancisco.giants.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/depth_chart/index.jsp?c_id=sf

[Teetz]

""Phils the funny thing is i post this shit before i read what u posted, then i click the post button and realize we posted identical topics."

Yeah I'm not sure if nrmax88 is drunk, retarded, or if this is just repressed homosexual feelings he gets for anyone that agrees with him.

[quintjs]

desturbd1 - On Pedroia, I got your joke, I was saying it would be funny if it happened anyway, be the greatest call on this forum in a long while.

Beckett is not a #1 now, but he has the potential and the pitches. He needs to learn how to start pitching. He is only 26. And has too much love for his fastball, but that was enough for the NL East, and it takes a while to move passed it.

[redsox0909]

NO way Manny goes to SF
Even with a thrid team

[murderersrow]

Beckett made a career off of one good game. Not a number one, nor do i think he ever will be in the AL. He doesn't have the stuff, because his fastball is good, not great.

[bsox21]

There are only 2 guys on the Giants I remotely care about, and they are Cain and Sanchez.

Cain and Sanchez are very intriguing guys.

Enormous upside with both.

[murderersrow]

I'm not a SF fan by any means, just thought that they gave up the most free agents and aren't making any noise in the free agent market. I agree, Cain and Sanchez are great young guys, and Neikro ain't bad either.

[redsox0909]

His fastball is better than good. There is no doubt he has the velocity. He threw the most pitchers over 95 miles an hour

[tyler]

Mets apperently bid $15 mill, I think George kicked in a couple extra million to make sure they didnt lose out to another rival team

[pinetarhand]

Wang is absolutey a better pitcher than Igawa will ever be. I would bet money on that. Like bsox said Westbrook is a poor man's Wang/Webb. Westbrook would only be behind Schmidt as far as available FA pitchers go, but would be more sought after simply because he's like 3 years younger. We'll just have to disagree about him & Igawa because until the season starts, there's no way to say for sure.

[bsox21]

unless beckett develops a good changeup or splitter, this is as good as he will ever be.

it's worrisome that he hasn't developed it yet.

At 26 yrs old, it makes u wonder if he just cant throw those pitches.

[bsox21]

pinetar,

i don't think anyone compared igawa to wang.

the relation was westbrook being a poor man's wang.

[redsox0909]

when he gets his curve over, its above average but your right he needs a changeup. Maybe Schilling can teach him the Splitter like he did to Papelbon.

[pinetarhand]

"woahhhhh... I thought Igawa was a stretch... Wang-ish? I'm gunna have to STRONGLY disagree"

I must have misinterpreted this post from Tyler then. Oops

[bsox21]

westbrook would get over $10 mil per in this market.

look at his innings pitched and K/BB ratios over the past 3 years.

Looks very ZIto-ish.

[bsox21]

yea that's what i figurd.

[Travis G.]

Igawa does have 3 strikeout titles, and an MVP and Cy Young over there, nothing to scoff at.

His repertoire includes a 88-92 fb, good curve, good change. Why are people saying his fb is slow? Zito's is actually slower.

$25 mil is very high, but with this bullshit that the NPB team can reduce the bid to help 'facilitate' a deal, who knows how much the Yanks (or Sawx) will really have to pay.

[pinetarhand]

It's not that his fastball is extremely slow. It's more that they describe him as a power pitcher that throws high fastballs to get the guy out. A 92 mph high fastball is not that great of a fastball considering power pitchers in majors throw north of 95 at least.

[bsox21]

If his arm action and rotation on the ball on an 81 mph change are good enough, that 92 can look 98.

[pinetarhand]

Oh yeah, if he's crafty, a 92 mph fastball ain't bad at all, but it describes him as a power pitcher not a crafty pitcher. There's a much different way of doing things for a crafty and power pitcher. Manny & Papi will kill that pitch if they think it's coming in that situation.

[bsox21]

true.

[bsox21]

Al Leiter was called a power pitcher, and there were days he couldn't break 90.

They called him that cuz he jus pounded the cutter in there.

Obviously, fOr a lefty, the standards are lower too.

A lefty touching 92 is equivalent to a righty touching 95.

[levelboss]

"Manny & Papi will kill that pitch if they.."

if Manny gets traded, then it'll be

"Ortiz gets walked, and the next guy hits into a double-play"

[pinetarhand]

If he gets traded, that next guy will either be Drew or Jones, not bad hitters either. No Manny, but still smart hitters.

[bsox21]

levelboss,

Don't sleep on Wily Mo bro.....

There's a monster brewing in that 250 lb body.

[YankeeBaseball]

"Manny & Papi will kill that pitch if they think it's coming in that situation."

Pinetar, Manny may not even be on the Saux come opening day. :-)

[murderersrow]

"Ortiz gets walked, and the next guy hits into a double-play"
... couldn't agree more. So much for Bonds' walks record. Ortiz might just pass it, because, honestly, JD Drew ain't gonna make me pitch to ortiz

[levelboss]

yeah of course Drew and Wily Mo are solid hitters, but next to Manny? are you kidding?

if Manny gets traded, the whole dynamic of the Red Sox offense will change

[bsox21]

"Ortiz might just pass it, because, honestly, JD Drew ain't gonna make me pitch to ortiz"

This is a good point, but Drew is gona battle you too, and draw hs own fair share of walks.

Some day, Wily Mo will be sandwiched in here and post some monster stats.

[bsox21]

He's no Manny, but he can be very good too.

He will at least make u think twice about walking Ortiz with 0-1 out.

With 2 outs and nobody on, u walk papi everytime.

[pinetarhand]

I'm still not sold on the Red Sox getting rid of Manny & replacing him with just J.D.Drew. I think there's more to be seen here & they will do something more to replace Manny's bat than just sign Drew.

[sirfreshness]

You are reading that scouting report wrong. Igawa USED to be a power pitcher, he has changed his style and is now a crafty pitching relying on keeping the hitter off balanced. He has a 88-92 FB, a good over the top curve, and a devestating change/fork that hits 70 all the way down to the mid 60's. They also said he throws a solid slider. I think he will be a solid pitcher in the majors.

[pinetarhand]

Drew hits lefties (Igawa) for shit so you're right. Let Papi pass then pitch to Drew IF that's the case in Boston.

[bsox21]

If I'm the Sox, I offer Manny for Ervin Santana and Juan Rivera.

The Red Sox would make off like bandits in that deal.

Rivera is gona be a BEAST in 2007.

[redsox0909]

Does anyone no if Lugo and Drew are class A free Agents?

[pinetarhand]

"He’ll sit right in the 90mph range until he needs a big strikeout and than he reaches back for added gas. But, like Washburn, he throws quite a few fastballs up in the zone and if he misses with it, it gets hit, and that will be big for him in the U.S,”

"“He gets most of his strikeouts on the change and the fastball up in the zone, and I suspect he’s going to continue that trend wherever he ends up."

This is what I was going on. I didn't read anywhere that he stopped doing it. Major League hitters will look for that pitch if he does it consitently.

[YankeeBaseball]

OffTopic: Just came across this absolute STUNNER in todays Boston Herald. READ THE WHOLE THING and you'll see what I mean!!!:

"Lucchino’s meeting with the Lions is significant, since the potential deal for Matsuzaka is a three-sided arrangement that includes the Lions, who will not receive the $51.11 million if Matsuzaka and the Red Sox cannot come to terms. The spirit and letter of the U.S.-Japanese agreement on player exchanges allows for teams to enter into “working agreements,” an open-ended term that in this instance could very well mean the Red Sox urging the Lions to apply a portion of their potential millions toward a long-term agreement between the Sox and the pitcher.

Before today’s announcement, Matsuzaka and the Red Sox were believed to be far apart in early negotiations, with the Red Sox talking about $7-8 million while Boras was in the neighborhood of approximately $15 million per year.

An example of what Lucchino and the Lions representatives could have discussed is a scenario where, for example, the Red Sox are unwilling to move beyond an average annual salary of $9 million. If an acceptable middle ground of $11 million per year for, say, five years would get the Matsuzaka deal done, the Lions could subtract $10 million coming to them from the Red Sox in order to bridge the gap. "

Blatant cheating in my mind. Yanks would NEVER be allowed to get away with such shenanigans...

[sirfreshness]

In that article it also says he has been working on changing this (throwing the FB high). He only does this to change the batters eyes. In that article it says he has started relying on the FB less and has become a smarter pitcher.

[bsox21]

I said it on another thread.

The posting system is retarded.

All it does is prevent Japanese players from being paid what they deserve.

[Paul AKA twinsfan]

Yankeebaseball it happened with Ichiro too so yes the Yankee's would get away with it.

[Paul AKA twinsfan]

I wouldn't put any stock in Willy Mo pena putting it all together I'm not a fan 70-80 power doesn't mean a player will be great.

[YankeeBaseball]

Paul, I hear ya, BUT, just because it may have happened in the past, doesn't make it right! Cheating is cheating any way you cut it and no matter which team is doing it.