Yankees win Igawa bid

Looks like the Yankees won the bidding to negotiate with Japanese lefty Kei Igawa for $25 million.  It was only a matter of time before Cashman threw some money around.

In other news, the Brewers are closing in on a deal with Craig Counsell.  (I'm not a fan: once around was enough for me.)  That's right on the heels of hearing that Counsell was destined for San Diego; now, it would seem that Counsell's original deal--two years of playing second base for the Padres--now will go to Tony Graffanino, who Doug Melvin had wanted to bring back to Milwaukee as a utility guy.  The Brewers also resigned Brian Shouse, who was eligible for arbitration.

By Jeff Sackmann

Comments

[pinetarhand]

LOLOLOLOL WOOHOO!!! I was hoping Hendry wasn't that stupid. I feel much better now.

[murderersrow]

There ya go

[jskohl]

The Yanks only throw $30 million at Matzusaka, but $25 million for Igawa, who will probably be a no.4 starter at best? I don't get it.

[tyler]

dont worry pinetarhand, henry will overpay for atleast 2 more players before the winter is over

[kevybo1]

i wanted the Cubs to get him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[pinetarhand]

yep, but at least it'll be players that have a little potential instead of this quack.

[murderersrow]

Thing is, with igawa, $5-6 million a year will get it done. Red Sox are looking at $12-15 million a year for matsuzaka, bringing the total cost of the contract between $85 and 100 million for 3 years. $50 million for 5 years doesn't look too bad in this market.

[pinetarhand]

"i wanted the Cubs to get him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

I love sarcasm.....right?

[kevybo1]

he's going to have a better year than Matsasuca

[murderersrow]

Could easily get more wins. Boston's lineup is still quite questionable, especially with the apparent inevitability of Ramirez being traded. No one in that lineup worries anybody, except for ortiz. Hard to see the sox keeping pace this year, especially if Beckett continues to get creamed by good AL teams

[desturbd1]

"Thing is, with igawa, $5-6 million a year will get it done. Red Sox are looking at $12-15 million a year for matsuzaka, bringing the total cost of the contract between $85 and 100 million for 3 years. $50 million for 5 years doesn't look too bad in this market."

Agreed. If it is $50MM for 4 or 5 years. But some scouts are REALLY low on the guy...rotoworld questions his ability to even make it as a starter in the AL East. Only time will tell.

"he's going to have a better year than Matsuzaka."

Dustin Pedroia is going to have a better year then Robinson Cano.

See? I can say things that make no sense and then fail to explain myself too!

[pinetarhand]

Matsusuca???? Wow! I don't think he'll have a better year. Nothing he's done in Japan shows that he'll be better. His own countrymen think he will not make it in the majors. (I know it was a small sample), but MLB players said he had nothing special during the World Baseball Classic. Either way, $25 million could be better spent even in this market. I'm no expert though. I just hope they scouted him really good to see what he can do. Why else would a team spend $25 million on him? Oh yeah, Yankees have to keep up with Boston & visa versa.

[kevybo1]

I don'tknow why the Cubs are going fter Jason Schmidt when BARRY ZITO IS STILL AVAILABLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[DentalPlan]

"Could get more wins." Yeah, maybe Kirk Reuter could too. What's the point?

You know what's silly about this? Day in and day out we've basically heard nothing but mediocrity about Igawa, now, hold the phone, he's gone to the Yankees, we have to pretend he's as good as Matsuzaka.

I wish he had gone to the Mets or Royals or anybody else, at least we wouldn't have to lie. Oh well. I predict Igawa wins 30 games. Sigh.

[DunkinDonuts]

"he's going to have a better year than Matasuca"

I reckon he will, because last I checked, Matasuca was bagging groceries in Quetzlcoatl, dreaming of one day leaving Mexico for the big leagues.

If you mean Matsuzaka, then check your spelling and try again before trying to render an opinion that you hope will carry some weight.

[nrmax88]

one thing is now yankee fans cant criticize bosox about mats. Ok heres the thing though. I have this strange little feeling that the yankees knew what they were doing getting igawa. I have a feeling now that they really think igawa will be something special. This can be a huge pickup, or a big mistake i guess. Anybody know what the next highest bid was? Maybe theyfigured Igawa can put up zito similar numbers for a much smaller contract. Who knows. I think Cashman had this up his sleeve for a while though.

[desturbd1]

"No one in that lineup worries anybody, except for ortiz."

Uhh...Manny is, at least for the moment, still in Boston. And a healthy Drew isn't exactly Alex Gonzalez. But yeah, NY still looks like they have the edge...but I think Boston's got the higher upside. And statheads love WMP's chances of having a breakout year this season.

Oh...and they still haven't actually finished building a team. So let's reserve judgment, at least for the moment. :)

[kevybo1]

it would have been pretty funy to see the Royals winning the rights for him.

[pinetarhand]

I have a feeling the Cubs are going to get to the playoffs, wanna argue that one anyone?

[desturbd1]

"I have a feeling now that they really think igawa will be something special. This can be a huge pickup, or a big mistake i guess. Anybody know what the next highest bid was? Maybe theyfigured Igawa can put up zito similar numbers for a much smaller contract. Who knows. I think Cashman had this up his sleeve for a while though."

I think it's either that, or the Yankes realized they desperately needed an innings eater, which is what Igawa is supposed to be. That, along with an apparent adjustment in FA pricing this offseason, may well have been enough to force Cashman's hand a bit.

[nrmax88]

Dunkindonuts hahahahahaha that shit was hilarious good shit. Murderers row i kind of agree with cashman rather spending 50 mil over 5 years for this guy, thinking he would be better off then lilly or one of these other 2nd tier starters who will make more then 10mil a year. I can see that. I agree though disturbd. We have to wait. We dont know what either one of these guys will do in the bigs.

[tyler]

JD drew doesnt scare me in the least

Yankees have had good results with scouting asian players in recent years. you can bring up Irabu, but that was 10 years ago, they are much more developed in their marketing and scouting over seas

[JakeOD21]

Not sure who "Matsasuca" is.

As for Daisuke Matsuzaka, there's a huge difference between him and Igawa. Matsuzaka can flash five different pitches, and is it worst a #2 pitcher over here. Igawa, on the other hand, throws a soft fastball and a good curve...and that's about it. Sounds like a reliever to me, #4 starter at best. When you consider that the Phils just spent $24M for Adam Eaton, $25M+a contract for Igawa seems like a lot.

I'm not saying there's no chance he's better than Matsuzaka, but the odds aren't in his favor.

murderersrow, the Sox are in flux right now, but I would not say they'll go into next year with ortiz being the only bat that "worries anybody." If they trade Manny, they should replace much of his offense with Drew, Lugo, WMP and probably a young bat (Loney, LaRoche?) in that deal. I would be worried if I was a lefty facing Pena in Fenway.

Not as worried, however, as I would be if I was in the Monster Seats.

[ArodSucksAtLife]

He said win more games than Matsuzaka not be a better pitcher.... Derek Lowe won more games than Roy Oswalt. Steve Trachsel and Roy Oswalt won the same amount of games. Maybe Matsuzaka comes over pitches light Santana and the Red Sox score 0 runs for him and he loses 30. Igawa comes over pitches like Jaret Wright, and the Yankees score 14 runs a game.

Yes I know thats not what he meant, and he was just being a ass, but it COULD happen

[bdid]

I am SOOOOO happy Omar is our GM. He didn't get silly with this one. Good pick up Cash. You'll spend 50 million for a relief pitcher. Thank you Omar...but, hurry up and sign Zito to some UnGodly amount of dough...nothing could look worse than the Dmat thing money wise! At least Barry has thrown a ball in the MLB.

[murderersrow]

First, I said with Ramirez' most likely being traded. Second: "And statheads love WMP's chances of having a breakout year this season."... Weren't they saying the same thing last year about this guy, when he was traded to boston, that all he needed to have to be a big hitter was the ABs. Well, he had 'em and was nothing special. Cost them games with his defense, or should i say lack thereof, as well.

[nrmax88]

disturbd but if the case was cashman feeling like his hand was being forced, then why not offer Zito 16 mil a year. I know its a 6mil a year difference, but this is the yankees.
I dont know though, im sure they had him scouted out well before the bid on him

[JakeOD21]

he didnt have the ABs like you might think. He played CF until Crisp came back, and then he went down with a wrist injury. He wasn't really the same after that. WMP this year when he did play showed a better patience at the plate, and if Manny gets dealt, he'll probably get the full year. He's still pretty young, mind you.

[pinetarhand]

who is igawa's agent

[pinetarhand]

WMP could very well be the next Sammy Sosa. Glad he's not the Cubs problem.

[bsox21]

"Dustin Pedroia is going to have a better year then Robinson Cano.

See? I can say things that make no sense and then fail to explain myself too!"

That's great stuff right there.

desurbd1 will never admit it, but that's my influence right there. that's totally something i would say.

[DunkinDonuts]

"Maybe Matsuzaka comes over pitches light Santana and the Red Sox score 0 runs for him and he loses 30. Igawa comes over pitches like Jaret Wright, and the Yankees score 14 runs a game."

If he comes over and pitches like Jaret Wright, the Yankees offense better crank it up to 15 or 16 runs a game. Just saying. If you had swiss cheese for a right shoulder, you'd want two touchdowns of run support WITH the two-point conversions.

[nrmax88]

Jake i agree i was just going to say that. WMP had like somewhere around 250 -260 ab's, maybe in the 270 range. Im not exactly sure i dont have his stats right here, but i know he hit 300 and his ops was atleast 930 in his limited play. I think he had like 10 Hr 40 rbi. In 600 AB, that probably translates to 20/85 or 90. He is now a year older and stronger, with a year more experience. I wouldnt say it is at all out of the question for him to go 25/100 with a 950 ops.

[tyler]

this is a good deal when you consider the insane contracts that guys like Lilly and Meche are going to get

[pinetarhand]

He'll also rival Dunn in K's & bad defense. Not that Dunn is worthless, but if WMP's average drops, then his OBP will be at about the worthless level.

[murderersrow]

so 25/90 is a monster year? david delucci had a better year than that in 2005.

[tyler]

his agent is Arn Tellem... the same agent as Hideki Matsui... i think thats a plus

[pinetarhand]

It's only a good deal in comparison if he doesn't suck. His ability is still suspect. I hate Lilly & Meche, but if I had to pay the same money, I'd probably bet on them before Igawa.

[nrmax88]

WMP is also like only 24 or 25 and has only played 1 year in fenway, not the easiest OF to play. Adam Dunn is in a tiny ball park, couldnt run the 60 foot run to the wall to catcha fly ball,and is basically a 1B now. Different situations. WMP will put up sick numbers in boston with the green monster help

[tyler]

again, none of us know anything about this guy. you can disagree with me, but with the recent sucess of Hideki Matsui and Chein Ming Wang, I trust the yankees over-seas scouting department

[bsox21]

Tyler - Agreed.

[pinetarhand]

Good point Tyler. I was taking that into consideration, but who signed that big hyped pitcher from Japan that ended up really stinking bad a while back?

[nrmax88]

where the hell did i say that was a monster year. He is only a kid dellucci is like 34, Dellucci never even came close to a 90 rbi year. Ever

[pinetarhand]

I meant I WASN'T taking that into consideration. Oops

[bsox21]

Scouting report on Igawa.

Based on his stats and this scouting report, seems like the Yanks made a nice move to me.

http://prospectinsider.wordpress.com/2006/11/11/scouting-report-kei-igawa-lhp/

[tyler]

Like I said earlier, that was almost 10 years ago. I think every team (including the yankees) have made large strides in developing scouting over-seas. It's still cashman running the show, but I'm sure alot of the scouting department has changed since Irabu was signed.

[pinetarhand]

You're right. I'm sure they've gotten better at judging them over the years. I really couldn't remember his name though.

[bsox21]

The scouting is much deeper now. You can't even compare.

If his slider breaks as hard as they say and if his arm action is good on a 10 mph difference between his change and his curve, and if he is durable, that's a nice pitcher to have as ur #4.

[pinetarhand]

His stats are only comparable to minor league stats since Japanese ball is considere AAA+. They're still valuable of course, but you can't bet the bank (or $25 mil) on them. A high 92 mph heater will get murdered here in the States unless it has good movement. He can't be a power pitcher with only 92 mph

[pinetarhand]

If they're only counting on a #4, then it's hard to be dissapointed. But for at least $50 mil when all is said & done, don't you think they're counting on a little bit more?

[sudansensation]

good news for the cubs that the yanks signed this guy. now we can focus on getting a proven pitcher in Jason Schmidt

[tyler]

judging by that scouting report, it looks like a good move... although they are probably overpaying.

But hey, they havent spent any money so far this offseason, and they saved some money in the Sheffield and Jered Wright deals, so I dont think its a big deal.

[bsox21]

I meant change and his fastball, obviously.

[papi4prez]

David Ortiz calls WMP "Little Papi" because he reminds him so much of himself in his early years: young, strong, undeniable power, but limited patience and a high K rate. Just like most scouts, Big Papi believes that once WMP gains plate discipline like he (Ortiz) did, with an everyday job and 550-600 ABs, Wily Mo will be a monster.

[bsox21]

Tyler,

Factor in the savings on luxry tax and marketing revenue in Japan, the yankees will make out with this deal.

25 million is nothing.

If he averages out to less than 10 mil per, I'll view it as a win for the yankees.

[desturbd1]

"desurbd1 will never admit it, but that's my influence right there. that's totally something i would say."

Oh please...like you have the market cornered on sarcasm. :)

"again, none of us know anything about this guy. you can disagree with me, but with the recent sucess of Hideki Matsui and Chein Ming Wang, I trust the yankees over-seas scouting department"

And that's fine...but I trust the fact that every scouting report I've ever read on the guy puts his ceiling at a 3-4 starter, at the absolute best. Maybe New York knows something nobody else on the planet seems to...I'll at least admit the possibility.

"so 25/90 is a monster year? david delucci had a better year than that in 2005."

To be fair, he did call for a 950 OPS. Which would be a little hard for him to do with only 25 HR's, but would qualify as a pretty damn good season. Anyway if Pena gets a full-time gig, he hits at least 30-35, easy. He showed more last season then in either of the 2 previous years. Contact and walk rate went up, and K's went down. I'd also point out that Pena already had a 25 HR season once...in 2004, when he banged out 26 in only 336 AB's. Of course, all his other numbers sucked. But again, he showed a good deal of improvement in 06 and excellent character as well. He never complained about his playing time, said all the right things in interviews...seemed like a great fit in Boston. I remember reading about a friendship he'd developed with Ortiz, who was said to be spending a great deal of time with him working on his mechanics and eye at the plate.

Anyway, back to Igawa...that scouting report Bsox linked too is interesting. But like pinetar said, it doesn't sound like the expectations are very high. Once again...Igawa looks to me like a far bigger question mark then Matsuzaka. And I don't think that's really up for debate.

[desturbd1]

"Oh please...like you have the market cornered on sarcasm. :)"

Heh, my bad...I meant to say bitterness and spite.

[tyler]

I agree bosox, I dont think the money will be an issue at all

[bsox21]

The aggressiveness of forecasting someone as a 3-4 starter depends on the team.

Saying he can be a 3-4 starter for the YANKEES and comparing him to Jarrod Washburn are pretty optimistic views if u ask me.

A 3-4 for the Pirates is a different story.

A 3-4 starter for the Pirates would be a minor league pitcher for the yankees.

Phillip Hughes wuold be the Ace of the Pirates right now, and he's battling for the 5 slot for the Yanks.

I like Igawa based on what I read and his stats, altho the 1.50 WHIP in 2005 seems strange.

[tyler]

And that's fine...but I trust the fact that every scouting report I've ever read on the guy puts his ceiling at a 3-4 starter, at the absolute best. Maybe New York knows something nobody else on the planet seems to...I'll at least admit the possibility

- so whats the problem if he is a 3rd or 4th starter? Isnt that what the Yankees need?

If this were the Mariners who are looking for an Ace it would be a different story

[tyler]

haha yeah you beat me to the punch bosox

[levelboss]

just looked at the box score of one of the Japan/MLB All-Star Series games earlier this month.. check out Igawa's game stats..

IP: 6.0
H: 5
R: 2
ER: 2
BB: 6
SO: 4
HR: 1 (->David Wright)

i think that's not bad at all considering he went up against mlb all-stars; Igawa can eat innings whilst the Yankee bats crush offensively

[bsox21]

Based on his stats and that scouting report, I can't see him having difficulty posting a 4.25 ERA or better, with a 2 or 2.5 K/BB ratio.

If he does that for 200 innings, this will be a great pick up for the Yanks.

[Baseballfan79]

horrible signing I think he ends up with a 5 era range this year.

[bsox21]

levelboss,

add that igawa has already pitched a full season and those numbers look even better.

[pinetarhand]

WMP strikeout rate. 2004 around 32% of the time, 2005 around 37% of the time, 2006 around 33% of the time. He still K's about the same & walks very little. If he can keep his average up, then he'll be very good, if he can't, then he's just a brainless masher like Dunn without the good OBP.

[levelboss]

thx bsox21; yep, that's even better

i think Igawa is mlb-caliber

[desturbd1]

Levelboss...those numbers are god-awful. So you better hope that's not what he does all year. He won't be posting a 3 ERA if his WHIP is 1.83.

And bsox, if his stats and scouting report transfer to a 4.25 ERA or better...what's that mean for Daisuke? Heh. Low 3's? 4.25 is pushing it...I think NY would be pleased if he throws 200+ and posts an ERA under 4.75.

[pinetarhand]

Isn't the Japan/MLB all star series kinda like the NFL All-star game? Hard to judge off of that alone. Plus the MLB players haven't played in around a month so they'd be rusty.

[levelboss]

for a #4 or 5 starter, i think Igawa will do just fine.. espcially considering he'll have the best run-support in the mlb

[nickjs21]

Well, like I've been harping on, the Yankees have been ignoring the Asian market for far too long. It's really been hurting them financially, too. I'm glad they decided to finally make the plunge.

And I just want to retread back to something bdid said... "I am SOOOOO happy Omar is our GM. He didn't get silly with this one. Good pick up Cash. You'll spend 50 million for a relief pitcher. Thank you Omar..."

Leave it to a Mets fan to use this situation as a reason why their GM is fantastic. Not like the Mets may have been outbid or anything.

IMO, I wish the Indians had gotten him. Could have made Westbrook extremely expendable.

[tyler]

yeah pintarhand, but niether had the japanese pitchers

[pinetarhand]

So looking at that game & trying to predict what he'll do, He should end up with 200 BB's & 132 K's while allowing about 32 HR's. I'm just havin fun here.

[pinetarhand]

"yeah pintarhand, but niether had the japanese pitchers" I'm sorry, but I must have gotten lost somewhere. What is this referring to?

[nickjs21]

"IMO, I wish the Indians had gotten him. Could have made Westbrook extremely expendable."

Forgot to add -- Westbrook might be a good comparable for Igawa in his MLB career (excluding his first year, since it will probably be an anomaly either way). An innings eater, ceiling at 15 wins, puts a lot of balls in play, pretty good command, ERA between 4-5.20. The only difference is that Igawa isn't a groundballer, which could cause more runs.

[bsox21]

Matsuzaka could totally post a low 3's ERA.

I don't see why you think he couldn't. He certainly has the stuff.

If Matsuzaka fails to be at least a #2 caliber pitcher, it would be more due to problems adapting than a lack of talent.

Baseball America calls Matsuzaka a top 10 pitcher in the world.

[tyler]

The Japan/MLB all star series

[pinetarhand]

You'd take this guy for at least $50 mil over 5 years over Westbrook right now? Maybe I'm overvaluing Westbrook, but I think you're undervaluing him.

[bsox21]

Nick,

"Well, like I've been harping on, the Yankees have been ignoring the Asian market for far too long."

Where the hell do u get this impression?

Matsui?? Irabu?? Wang??

Are u retarded?

[tyler]

Westbrook blows

[pinetarhand]

I figured Nick was just being sarcastic

[desturbd1]

"I don't see why you think he couldn't. He certainly has the stuff."

I do think he could, he does have the stuff...but I expect his first season to be a little more, shall we say, human. Mid-3's, realistically. I'm a cynic, what can I say...so my expectations for Igawa are tempered a bit as well.

[pinetarhand]

Westbrook blows? His ERA was 16th in the AL which means he would basically be a #2 for any team in the AL. Put him in the NL & if his ERA drops the same as other AL to NL players does, and he'd be at least a #2 for most teams there too. Igawa's best possible projection might be a #2, but he's probably just a #3 or #4. I digress, Westbrook is better.

[quintjs]

I just read this and think that the Yankees are trying to make up for Matsuzaka. They just throw money at a problem at hope for the best.

I kinda know thats not true, because they have succeeded so much, but i cannot shake that impression.

Some people are down on Boston's lineup too. Even if they trade Manny, they can still score enough runs for Matsuzaka (who will require a lot less than other pitchers)

Josh Beckett was alright in his first year in the AL, with a lot of quality starts. His ERA was so high because when he got hit, he really got hit. 8 runs in 2 innings etc. He will not repeat those feats all too often in 2007.

I just think that pitching wins, and the Red Sox have a great staff, and the Yankees have.. ?

What is the justification for this bid? Its pretty high too.

Its going to be really funny if Pedroia wins a batting title or something, and has a better year than Cano.

The thing with Igawa, and Matsuzka is really they need quality pitches, Matsuzaka has at least 5/6.

Igawa did well against that MLB team but two things to note. 1) Both sets of players were at the end of the season and 2) What happens to Igawa when people see what he has? get used to him?

I think that is why people are questioning him as an MLB player, I do not know enough about him.

[pinetarhand]

He's put up over 200 innings 4 years running while keeping his ERA pretty close to the same (anywhere from 3.38 to 4.49). He is the model for a consistent & underrated player. I just can't say enough. I hope the Cubs can trade for him (4th in GB to FB ration too)

[desturbd1]

"Its going to be really funny if Pedroia wins a batting title or something, and has a better year than Cano."

Heh...you should have read my next line, bud. Was totally joking there, Cano's ceiling scares me a bit.

But thank you for noticing the same thing I've been screaming about since September...Beckett's 2006 was not nearly as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Lots of QS, totally earned his wins...but roughly 1/4 of the time, got absolutely hammered bad enough to skew his overall stats. Gotta expect this to level out next season, and if it does...a 3.5 ERA wouldn't surprise me even a little bit.

[bsox21]

pinetar,

he isn't joking.

he posted it on other threads.

the guy is retarded.

[pinetarhand]

Wow! I like to reserve my judgement about calling people retarded though. Maybe he's just really drunk?

[Teetz]

I also hope the Cubs can snag Westbrook away from the Indians. The guy would probably be the 3rd best starter on the market if he was a free agent right after Matsuzaka, Schmidt

[nrmax88]

Retarded, Drunk, whats the difference. Being drunk is like temporarily being retarded.

[bsox21]

The Yankees might be responding to the asking price for shitty pitching this offseason.

I can see this happening:

- Yanks call Lilly.

- Lilly asks for 5 years @ $53 million.

- Yanks hang up and start an email thread throughout the yankees organization.

people begin to create Ted Lilly video montages of him getting absolutely rocked.

- Yanks call Meche.

- Meche asks for....

- Yanks hand up, realizing that he sucks.

- Yanks call Zito.

- Zito asks 7 years @ 90 million.

- Yanks refuse to pay $100K per walk Zito surrenders.

- Yanks bid $25 mil for Igawa.

[bsox21]

pinetar,

there's a history with this moron.

[murderersrow]

Beckett was absolutely atrocious against the quality teams in the AL. Against the yankees, blue jays, white sox, and tigers he was bad. His quality starts came against bad competition. Three QS against those teams in 12 starts. Not #1 or #2 material.

[pinetarhand]

bsox, hilarious.

I kinda like being drunk every once in a while. When I do something retarded then, at least its funny. When I do it sober, then I kinda just feel.....retarded.

[nrmax88]

like teetz?

[tyler]

Sorry but Ill take a chance on a Japanese pitcher thats still some what of a mystery over Jake Westbrook. IMO hes the last thing the yankees need.

[bsox21]

Beckett is more overrated than Eli Manning, and that's saying something.

He's a good #4, and an average #3.

He throws hard and the media hypes him up. Thats why these people think he's good.

[Paul AKA twinsfan]

Sounds like a left handed Brad Radke to me. If he can be that good it'd be a achievement.

[redsox0909]

the redsox are talking to Hideki Okajima from Japan. They are talking about a two year deal. Hes 30 years old and posted a 2-2 record with a 2.14 ERA Good idea by Theo. Since there aren't any great free agent reliever, why not tape back into the Japanese market. PLUS HES A LEFTY

[murderersrow]

Beckett's W/L against quality teams
Tor - 7IP, 1ER - W
Tor - 7.1IP, 5ER - ND
Tor - 5IP, 1ER - ND
NYY - 7IP, 3ER - W
Tor - 4.2IP, 7ER - L
NYY - 1.1IP, 7ER - L
CWS - 6IP, 5ER - W
DET - 6IP, 5ER - L
NYY - 5.2IP, 9ER - L
TOR - 5IP, 3ER - L
NYY - 6IP, 2ER - W

[bsox21]

tyler,

we disagree regarding westbrook.

I think he's better than he's shown.

If he gains more consistency, i think he could be wang-ish.

I think someoe like Dave Duncan could turn Westbrook into a nice pitcher.

[tyler]

wow those are some pretty shitty numbers

[tyler]

If he gains more consistency, i think he could be wang-ish.

woahhhhh... I thought Igawa was a stretch... Wang-ish? I'm gunna have to STRONGLY disagree

[murderersrow]

"the redsox are talking to Hideki Okajima from Japan."
Heard the yankees were also in discussions with him. Whoever gets him will get a nice lefty reliever.

[bsox21]

I compare Westbrook to Wang becuz Westbrook induces tons of ground balls when he's going good.

I like Westbrook. He needs to find a way to be more consistent.

Webb is another sinkerballer that just needed to gain consistency.

The problem with sinkerballers is when they dont have it, they get lit up.

Wang and Webb have always had this type of talent. They jus eliminated the really bad starts/innings they used to have.

I think Westbrook is in this mold, but not quite as good.

A poor man's Webb/Wang if you will.

[murderersrow]

On a completely unrelated note, was looking over a few teams rosters, and what is San Fran up to this offseason? Their depth chart is funny as hell because they have nobody under contract. Sabean should probably get off his ass and stop worrying about Ramirez and work on signing multiple free agents.
http://sanfrancisco.giants.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/depth_chart/index.jsp?c_id=sf

[Teetz]

""Phils the funny thing is i post this shit before i read what u posted, then i click the post button and realize we posted identical topics."

Yeah I'm not sure if nrmax88 is drunk, retarded, or if this is just repressed homosexual feelings he gets for anyone that agrees with him.

[quintjs]

desturbd1 - On Pedroia, I got your joke, I was saying it would be funny if it happened anyway, be the greatest call on this forum in a long while.

Beckett is not a #1 now, but he has the potential and the pitches. He needs to learn how to start pitching. He is only 26. And has too much love for his fastball, but that was enough for the NL East, and it takes a while to move passed it.

[redsox0909]

NO way Manny goes to SF
Even with a thrid team

[murderersrow]

Beckett made a career off of one good game. Not a number one, nor do i think he ever will be in the AL. He doesn't have the stuff, because his fastball is good, not great.

[bsox21]

There are only 2 guys on the Giants I remotely care about, and they are Cain and Sanchez.

Cain and Sanchez are very intriguing guys.

Enormous upside with both.

[murderersrow]

I'm not a SF fan by any means, just thought that they gave up the most free agents and aren't making any noise in the free agent market. I agree, Cain and Sanchez are great young guys, and Neikro ain't bad either.

[redsox0909]

His fastball is better than good. There is no doubt he has the velocity. He threw the most pitchers over 95 miles an hour

[tyler]

Mets apperently bid $15 mill, I think George kicked in a couple extra million to make sure they didnt lose out to another rival team

[pinetarhand]

Wang is absolutey a better pitcher than Igawa will ever be. I would bet money on that. Like bsox said Westbrook is a poor man's Wang/Webb. Westbrook would only be behind Schmidt as far as available FA pitchers go, but would be more sought after simply because he's like 3 years younger. We'll just have to disagree about him & Igawa because until the season starts, there's no way to say for sure.

[bsox21]

unless beckett develops a good changeup or splitter, this is as good as he will ever be.

it's worrisome that he hasn't developed it yet.

At 26 yrs old, it makes u wonder if he just cant throw those pitches.

[bsox21]

pinetar,

i don't think anyone compared igawa to wang.

the relation was westbrook being a poor man's wang.

[redsox0909]

when he gets his curve over, its above average but your right he needs a changeup. Maybe Schilling can teach him the Splitter like he did to Papelbon.

[pinetarhand]

"woahhhhh... I thought Igawa was a stretch... Wang-ish? I'm gunna have to STRONGLY disagree"

I must have misinterpreted this post from Tyler then. Oops

[bsox21]

westbrook would get over $10 mil per in this market.

look at his innings pitched and K/BB ratios over the past 3 years.

Looks very ZIto-ish.

[bsox21]

yea that's what i figurd.

[Travis G.]

Igawa does have 3 strikeout titles, and an MVP and Cy Young over there, nothing to scoff at.

His repertoire includes a 88-92 fb, good curve, good change. Why are people saying his fb is slow? Zito's is actually slower.

$25 mil is very high, but with this bullshit that the NPB team can reduce the bid to help 'facilitate' a deal, who knows how much the Yanks (or Sawx) will really have to pay.

[pinetarhand]

It's not that his fastball is extremely slow. It's more that they describe him as a power pitcher that throws high fastballs to get the guy out. A 92 mph high fastball is not that great of a fastball considering power pitchers in majors throw north of 95 at least.

[bsox21]

If his arm action and rotation on the ball on an 81 mph change are good enough, that 92 can look 98.

[pinetarhand]

Oh yeah, if he's crafty, a 92 mph fastball ain't bad at all, but it describes him as a power pitcher not a crafty pitcher. There's a much different way of doing things for a crafty and power pitcher. Manny & Papi will kill that pitch if they think it's coming in that situation.

[bsox21]

true.

[bsox21]

Al Leiter was called a power pitcher, and there were days he couldn't break 90.

They called him that cuz he jus pounded the cutter in there.

Obviously, fOr a lefty, the standards are lower too.

A lefty touching 92 is equivalent to a righty touching 95.

[levelboss]

"Manny & Papi will kill that pitch if they.."

if Manny gets traded, then it'll be

"Ortiz gets walked, and the next guy hits into a double-play"

[pinetarhand]

If he gets traded, that next guy will either be Drew or Jones, not bad hitters either. No Manny, but still smart hitters.

[bsox21]

levelboss,

Don't sleep on Wily Mo bro.....

There's a monster brewing in that 250 lb body.

[YankeeBaseball]

"Manny & Papi will kill that pitch if they think it's coming in that situation."

Pinetar, Manny may not even be on the Saux come opening day. :-)

[murderersrow]

"Ortiz gets walked, and the next guy hits into a double-play"
... couldn't agree more. So much for Bonds' walks record. Ortiz might just pass it, because, honestly, JD Drew ain't gonna make me pitch to ortiz

[levelboss]

yeah of course Drew and Wily Mo are solid hitters, but next to Manny? are you kidding?

if Manny gets traded, the whole dynamic of the Red Sox offense will change

[bsox21]

"Ortiz might just pass it, because, honestly, JD Drew ain't gonna make me pitch to ortiz"

This is a good point, but Drew is gona battle you too, and draw hs own fair share of walks.

Some day, Wily Mo will be sandwiched in here and post some monster stats.

[bsox21]

He's no Manny, but he can be very good too.

He will at least make u think twice about walking Ortiz with 0-1 out.

With 2 outs and nobody on, u walk papi everytime.

[pinetarhand]

I'm still not sold on the Red Sox getting rid of Manny & replacing him with just J.D.Drew. I think there's more to be seen here & they will do something more to replace Manny's bat than just sign Drew.

[sirfreshness]

You are reading that scouting report wrong. Igawa USED to be a power pitcher, he has changed his style and is now a crafty pitching relying on keeping the hitter off balanced. He has a 88-92 FB, a good over the top curve, and a devestating change/fork that hits 70 all the way down to the mid 60's. They also said he throws a solid slider. I think he will be a solid pitcher in the majors.

[pinetarhand]

Drew hits lefties (Igawa) for shit so you're right. Let Papi pass then pitch to Drew IF that's the case in Boston.

[bsox21]

If I'm the Sox, I offer Manny for Ervin Santana and Juan Rivera.

The Red Sox would make off like bandits in that deal.

Rivera is gona be a BEAST in 2007.

[redsox0909]

Does anyone no if Lugo and Drew are class A free Agents?

[pinetarhand]

"He’ll sit right in the 90mph range until he needs a big strikeout and than he reaches back for added gas. But, like Washburn, he throws quite a few fastballs up in the zone and if he misses with it, it gets hit, and that will be big for him in the U.S,”

"“He gets most of his strikeouts on the change and the fastball up in the zone, and I suspect he’s going to continue that trend wherever he ends up."

This is what I was going on. I didn't read anywhere that he stopped doing it. Major League hitters will look for that pitch if he does it consitently.

[YankeeBaseball]

OffTopic: Just came across this absolute STUNNER in todays Boston Herald. READ THE WHOLE THING and you'll see what I mean!!!:

"Lucchino’s meeting with the Lions is significant, since the potential deal for Matsuzaka is a three-sided arrangement that includes the Lions, who will not receive the $51.11 million if Matsuzaka and the Red Sox cannot come to terms. The spirit and letter of the U.S.-Japanese agreement on player exchanges allows for teams to enter into “working agreements,” an open-ended term that in this instance could very well mean the Red Sox urging the Lions to apply a portion of their potential millions toward a long-term agreement between the Sox and the pitcher.

Before today’s announcement, Matsuzaka and the Red Sox were believed to be far apart in early negotiations, with the Red Sox talking about $7-8 million while Boras was in the neighborhood of approximately $15 million per year.

An example of what Lucchino and the Lions representatives could have discussed is a scenario where, for example, the Red Sox are unwilling to move beyond an average annual salary of $9 million. If an acceptable middle ground of $11 million per year for, say, five years would get the Matsuzaka deal done, the Lions could subtract $10 million coming to them from the Red Sox in order to bridge the gap. "

Blatant cheating in my mind. Yanks would NEVER be allowed to get away with such shenanigans...

[sirfreshness]

In that article it also says he has been working on changing this (throwing the FB high). He only does this to change the batters eyes. In that article it says he has started relying on the FB less and has become a smarter pitcher.

[bsox21]

I said it on another thread.

The posting system is retarded.

All it does is prevent Japanese players from being paid what they deserve.

[Paul AKA twinsfan]

Yankeebaseball it happened with Ichiro too so yes the Yankee's would get away with it.

[Paul AKA twinsfan]

I wouldn't put any stock in Willy Mo pena putting it all together I'm not a fan 70-80 power doesn't mean a player will be great.

[YankeeBaseball]

Paul, I hear ya, BUT, just because it may have happened in the past, doesn't make it right! Cheating is cheating any way you cut it and no matter which team is doing it.

[tyler]

bsox that trade would be great for the sox. But the Angles already wasted their money on GMJ. One downside to that for the sox is that Manny would stay in the AL

[pinetarhand]

I read something later on in the replies that he had turned himself into a more Zito-ish pitcher, but nothing about him changing his high fastball for K's tendencies, is that even later (I didn't read all the replies)

[pinetarhand]

Is it still possible to trade Manny for good prospects & a pitcher like Santana & then flip those players for Andruw Jones?

[JakeOD21]

YankeeBaseball, you clearly didn't read the whole thing very closely yourself.

"The spirit and letter of the U.S.-Japanese agreement on player exchanges allows for teams to enter into “working agreements,” an open-ended term that in this instance could very well mean the Red Sox urging the Lions to apply a portion of their potential millions toward a long-term agreement between the Sox and the pitcher."

That means it isn't cheating, under those terms. It's well-established that the Orix Blue Wave kicked back most of (maybe all of) Ichiro's posting fee. Nothing crazy there.

If people want to walk Ortiz, let 'em. Ryan Howard had Pat Burrell hitting behind him last year and he still hit almost 60. Power hitters will hit strikes for homers regardless. The key here getting on-base guys in FRONT of Ortiz to force teams to pitch to him in bases-loaded or 1st-and-2nd situations (hence the desire to sign Lugo). Francona likes to go lefty-righty-lefty through his lineups so I'm not sure if Drew would hit behind him should he sign and Manny is moved.

Most people that actually watched Josh Beckett pitch aren't nearly as worried about him as people in the media and fans from elsewhere in the country. The high homer totals are alarming, but this guy has the desire to get better. People that say he's a 3 or 4 starter dont know what their talking about. To me, the quality start statistic is highly useless. Two of the starts mentioned above were 5 IP performances with 1 and 3 runs allowed respectively, and those don't count as qualities starts even though they could count as wins for him and his ballclub.

For Beckett, he set career highs in wins and IP. No reason to think he can't get better over the course of his contract.

[sirfreshness]

yea his strikeout stuff is usually his offspeed. He tends to throw the slider to K righties and sticks with the curve or change with the lefties. He only uses the FB when he beleives that the hitter is sitting on a offspeed pitch.

[bsox21]

pinetar,

That would be an awesome scenario too.

Could totally see that happening, but I think the Angels would jus pursue Druw directly.

They could use the Gold Glove.

Coco is no Druw, but he's plenty good too.

[bsox21]

JakeOD,

You managed to use the most words without saying a damn thing than anyone on the board.

Congrats.

Your optimism for Beckett can be applied to about 95% of the pitchers in baseball if you're vague enough.

He threw good game against the yanks becuz they never saw him before and Bud Selig implemented a secret rule that fined Yankees $1 million if they took a walk.

Other than that, he hasn't done shit.

[JakeOD21]

All I'm saying is that I watched the guy pitch every fifth day last year and I personally think he's going to be good. And I think I made a good point about quality starts being useless in some cases.

[YankeeBaseball]

Jake, that was a Boston writer's biased interpretation of the rules.

It was clearly cheating when Seattle did it and it's clearly cheating in this instance too. What if Seibu agrees to put in say 15 million towards Matsuzaka's contract, that would mean Boston's NET bid would be $36.1 million WHICH IS LESS THAN THE METS BID!

[sirfreshness]

It would be cheating if they only paid 35 mill of the 51 but if the lions are willing to share the money then i dont think thats cheating, unless they had come to this agreement before the bidding was finished.

[JakeOD21]

By no means am I saying that the system isn't flawed. It clearly is and needs to be altered. And it's obviously not just his interpretation of the rules if owners of teams are doing it as well.

[YankeeBaseball]

Yeah. They know how to cheat so that makes it right.

[YankeeBaseball]

I would be saying the exact same thing if it was the Yankees who were doing this and that's the truth.

[YankeeBaseball]

Cheating is cheating no matter who does it.

Try telling the cop that pulls you over that everyone speeds and see how far it gets you!

[bsox21]

Jake,

3 runs in 5 innings is a 5+ ERA.

I have no idea why u think u proved quality starts are useless in some cases.

If you leave the game after 5 innings and surrendering 3 runs, unless the other pitcher BOMBED, you have left your team to deal with playing from behind and relying on ur pen to keep them close OR, leaving with a tie or a slight lead, and relying on ur pen to hold it for 4 innings.

AKA - 5 inning starts when u surrender 3 runs are TERRIBLE.

[bsox21]

5 inning starts suck in general.

If your rotation made 5 innig starts on a consistent basis, your pen would be in shambles bythe all star break.

[JakeOD21]

bsox21, the actual point I was trying to make there is that if you leave a game with 5 IP and giving up 3 runs, it is still possible for the pitcher to earn a win and for the team to win a game. That's a fact you cannot dispute. Giving up three runs in one inning is terrible. Giving up three runs in five innings simply is not.

If you want to get into symantics, go right ahead. All I know is that in the end the point is to win. And Josh Beckett got 16 wins. No one in baseball even got 20 last year. I rest my case.

[bsox21]

Lol.....

Jake,

Your response is so bad, I'm not gona bother.

It would be like trying to cure a crack head in less than an hour.

It's jus not worth the effort.

[TNS]

"I would be saying the exact same thing if it was the Yankees who were doing this and that's the truth." ~YankeeBaseball

Yankees GM Brian Cashman confirmed that his team was awarded the rights to Japanese left-hander Kei Igawa.

Their bid was for right around $26 million. According to the New York Times, the Mets bid $15 million-$19 million. The Yankees will have until Dec. 28 to work out a deal with the 27-year-old Igawa, who is represented by Arn Tellem. Tellem is the agent for fellow Yankees Hideki Matsui and Jason Giambi and is known to have a good relationship with the team. ___It's still possible the Yankees will ask the Hanshin Tigers to kick back a portion of the posting fee.___ It's hard to see Igawa being worth the $40 million-$45 million for three years the Yankees might be spending here.

(Source: Rotoworld)

[bsox21]

JakeOD,

Have u considered being a big TENNIS fan?? Golf??

Tennis and golf are very simple games. Even girls are tennis and golf fans.

You should give it a shot bro.

There are Tennis and golf message boards too.

Give it a shot my man. Baseball isnt ur game.

[tyler]

then i guess Randy Johnson and Joe Blanton are better than Beckett too

[YankeeBaseball]

TNS

If the Yankees do that same kick back scheme it is just as wrong as if Boston is doing it. It is just not right!

[JakeOD21]

Yeah my response is so bad because you can't dispute that five innings gets you a win in baseball. I don't think that getting five innings out of your starter is what you should shoot for each time out. You want him to get as deep into the game as possible. I'm well aware of that. I just tried to make the point that the quality start stat should not be considered as heavily as actual wins and losses. They don't count quality starts when deciding which teams get in the playoffs.

[JakeOD21]

pretty funny how you said you wouldnt respond and then you immediately respond. of course, I shouldnt be surprised because you do it on just about every thread.

[bsox21]

JakeOD,

IN golf, you only hav to look at one stat and every player plays for himself, so it's quite simple.

You should try it.

ESPN has a golf message board. It's awesome.

Go check it out for a year or so. If it doesn't float ur boat, come back. I have other suggestions for you.

[JakeOD21]

sure I like tennis and golf. use to play golf alot actually. but i've also been watching and playing baseball my whole life and I know pretty well that the important thing about it to me is WINNING. See, I can make a point all in caps too.

[bsox21]

Jake OD,

Here is the game and board for u.

Go check it out brotha.

http://messages.yahoo.com/Recreation_&_Sports/Sports/forumview?bn=18079207

[JakeOD21]

used to play that too, in my backyard. I also liked it when I won at that.

[pinetarhand]

Actual wins is very subjective to how good of an offense you have behind you. It is not a good measure of a pitcher's actual worth. Cas in point, Randy Johnson 2004. You put his numbers behind a DECENT offense & he's a 20 game winner. Wins are not the stat to judge a pitcher by. That's why people use ERA, WHIP, & K/BB. A 5 inning outing where a pitcher allows 3 runs is not a good start whether your team wins or not. That is a bad start. That is over a 5 ERA. A team that scores 800 runs a year (top 1/3 of MLB) averages less than 5 runs per game. So an ERA of over 5 loses games.

[nrmax88]

He rests his case. Lol

[bsox21]

Pinetar,

it's painful that u have to explain that on this board.

Let's redirect Jake's energy towards a more fitting game.

How about the world of CHECKERS??

[nrmax88]

Steve Trachsel won 15 games last year Jake. I rest my case. Steve Trachsel if the cream of the crop when it comes to slow, control pitchers that cant hit a spot,bad splitter that doesnt split anymore, and he won 15 games. Consider my case rested

[JakeOD21]

This is absolutely the last thing I'm going to say about this, and I'm going to stick by my word on that. bsox, you make it sound like my view on baseball is that winning is all and there's nothing that goes into that. You either have winning or losing. I think I have the ability to understand that there's a bit more to it than that.

Yeah, Josh Beckett had an ERA over 5. Yeah, he gave up twice as many homers last year than any other year of his career. Yeah, he hasn't developed a knockout third pitch yet. Yeah, he pitched a big game in the WS and got recognized. But from an optimistic baseball point of view, I personally think he can get better. He'll be a year older and smarter in 07. That's just my opinion. You have a man-crush on Soriano, and I think Beckett will be better regardless of his past statistics.

I'm done.

[bsox21]

Jake,

There is an awesome, young, up and coming BOWLING PROSPECT about to explode on the scene.

GO CHECK HIM OUT!!

[YankeeBaseball]

Jake, READ THIS AND WEEP about the cheating that you claim is A-OK. Just released and direct from the commissioners office:

"Jimmie Lee Solomon, executive VP of baseball operations in the commissioner's office, said any side deals used to convert Daisuke Matsuzaka's posting fee into salary for the right-hander would not be allowed."

[bsox21]

Ok I'll stop.

Have fun rooting for Beckett my little Jakie-pooh.

[JakeOD21]

Well, YankeeBaseball, I hadn't seen that. Mr. Solomon is the law on these matters, so I'll take his word for it. I just wonder where he was a few years back when the Ichiro deal took place.

[YankeeBaseball]

Further:

"There are no side deals in the situation," Soloman said. "Everybody's been assured that's not allowed, and everybody's been made aware of the rules."

[nrmax88]

LETS GO METS

[bdid]

Glavine offered 8 million 1 year w/ option from Braves...will he take it?

metsblog.com

[bdid]

hey nrmax, didn't you post earlier that you heard the Mets signed Zito? What site was that from, because I still haven't seen it anywhere I've looked.

[YankeeBaseball]

Jake, just because someone cheated and broke the rules years ago, doesn't make it legal. They just weren't caught.

[nrmax88]

Word is Atlanta has offered Glavine a 1 year/7 mil deal. Supposedly the Mets have matched that with 1year/ Atleast 10 mil with a possible option for a 2nd year. Time to make a choice tommy boy. Shit or get off the pot

[JakeOD21]

fair enough.

[nrmax88]

bdid u beat me to itu bastard! Yeah i posted that, but i think it was bullshit, cause i never found anything. Somebody on mets blog said it was on the radio

[nickjs21]

Bsox21, you are absolutely wasting everyone's time. You promised never to respond to us. Instead, you act out some internet man-crush on Jake by refusing to leave him alone.

About my sarcastic comment about the Yankees lack of interest in the Asian market... I think you would have to be pretty thick to not find the joke there. Maybe if I made eight consecutive posts about it, and typed in CAPS, like you did with this whole tennis/bowling thing, then it would be funny? Cuz you're funny, right? Missed that one.

"there's a history with this moron." Really? What's my history? Backing up my legit baseball opinions with facts? And posing my opinions as just that--opinions? Not belittling like a child anyone who disagrees with me? Not taking horrible swings that don't land?

Yeah, you sure know baseball. Typing in caps really proves it.

(Please, please, please don't be a hypocrite and follow through on your promise to stop posting, bsox21...)

Now, can we all talk baseball here? Like people over 13?

[RedSoxHater3]

Has anyone heard anything about the contract talk with D-Mat and the Red Sox...

[bdid]

Zito will be a Met within 24 hours if Glavine leaves. We need at least one Good lefty+ Perez!

[bsox21]

Nick, you have posted this about 3 times now.

I really don't think u were joking.

If u want to play that game, that's fine.

Based on ur past, you're due to embarrass urself again by Friday.

[nrmax88]

yo nick, why does it bother u so much that people argue your point and post up curses. Who cares. You keep telling bsox to shutup and not respond but u always say some shit that u know is going to get a response. Some people like to use stats and shit to prove their points. Some people use other stuff, stuff stats dont show, and some people use FUCKING curse words because they can. Get over it

[nrmax88]

good shit bdid. Where did u see that?
Bsox speaking of man crushes, i think nick has a little thing for jakey poo, trying to fight his battles for him. You gota admit bsox, that is an admirable and noble thing to do

[bsox21]

Yes it is. The incompetent seem less so if they are incompetent in bunches.

[NYs Maine Man]

Good Evening Gents,

Good to see Bsox21 has been arguing with other posting patrons, calling them names, mocking their opinions...and I thought I was special :-(

What do you guys think Glavine is going to decide?

[nrmax88]

I think he is out. I personally hope that he chooses atlanta and atlanta tells him thanks but no thanks and he has to either win 300 as like a cub or something, or just retires. That may be a little harsh, but can you finally make your mind up tommy boy?

[NYs Maine Man]

I hear ya, he wants to gop to Atlanta, but the question remains, do they really want him? And will he go somewhere where they will not offer a no-trade clause...

[bsox21]

Given how desperate we are for pitching, this is tough situation.

My heart doesn't want Glavine on the Mets, He grew up with the BRaves and it' clear from Scheurholz's book and his postruing this offseason that he doesn't want to be in Shea.

Besides, he made his name wit the Braves and to be honest, he never stopped being a Braves pitcher to me.

Even when he was in a Mets unifom, I viewed him as a "Braves pitcher in a Mets uniform".

My head wants him t cme back becuz we have so many risks in the rotation.

I'd take Glavine at 10 for 2 years over Zito at 15 for 6 years tho.

[nrmax88]

i wouldnt mind either way. I still think minayas going to make a trade though

[NYs Maine Man]

It really is a testy call. I really don't feel so so confident with Glavine on the mound. As well as he pitched for a majority of last season, because of his style, if he is a fraction-off location..he can get rocked.

I love Zito, always have. I actually met Rick Peterson through a Mastercard event-- his first year with the Mets and asked him about Zito-- and Mr. Peterson is very fond of him. The two are very close friends, and I feel given Zito's age, relationship w/Rick, and move to the NL, that might be the move to make.

[bobo]

I think I'd pay upwards of $500 to watch bsox and nrmax locked in a room together for 24 hours.

[NYs Maine Man]

Explain that rationale, bobo....

[bravesrule14]

y does everybod hat Kip Wells hes not that bad off a pitcher. even he doesnt pitch great he has an offense that will hit for him i.e Randy Johnson. not that im comparing those 2 but Johnson had an ERA around 5.00 most of the year. and Wells is only a couple of years removed grom pretty good seasons

[nrmax88]

true, but the few times i saw him pitch in 06 he looked awful. Bobo i dont get it bsox is one of the only people i don beef with on this whole site. you guys take shit to personally. Half the time i just say shit to make people mad cuz its funny.If we all agreed all day then this shit would be boring

[nickjs21]

Oy vey.

"Nick, you have posted this about 3 times now."
Twice. Said it twice. Joking both times. Honestly, I'm really asking, could you possibly think someone could say something like that, and NOT realize that the Yankees have additional camera pits to hold the Japanese photographers? That ads behind home plate are in Japanese characters? I'm begging the use of logic.

"Based on ur past, you're due to embarrass urself again by Friday"
In the spirit of gamesmanship, this is the second time I'll ask you to support that statement. Find me embarrassing myself on this board.

"Some people like to use stats and shit to prove their points. Some people use other stuff, stuff stats dont show, and some people use FUCKING curse words because they can. Get over it"
People don't use curse words to prove their point, because curse words don't prove any points. They use curse words to sound more important. People who have a point use facts. How can that be disputed? And no, nrmax, being able to use a curse word doesn't mean it's a great reason to do it.

"i think nick has a little thing for jakey poo, trying to fight his battles for him." -- Yep, you've crushed me, nrmax. I've been owned. I am stupid, and a homosexual on top of that. Ya got me. I bow to your superiority.

Back to baseball. Let's not be children anymore.
As for Glavine, I can't imagine Atlanta not welcoming him back.

[nickjs21]

And why do we have to disagree in spiteful, belittling ways, nrmax? Isn't there enough disagreement enough on actual baseball issues?

[nrmax88]

Haha, how can i argue with that. I dont abt atl, they have smoltz hudson, james, davies, hampton,ramirez. I dont know if they wana pay that much to bring a starter back for 1 year, especially giving up draft picks for him when it is pretty clear althouh they may compete, i dont think they will be playing in october

[bsox21]

I think it depends on what Glavine and Zito do.

I think we will end up with 2 out of the following (listed in order of likelihood):

Zito
Vazquez
Glavine
Garcia

and hold onto your skivvies....my sleepers for the Mets rotation:

Mark Redman
Jon Garland
Tony Armas
Mark Hendickson

[nrmax88]

I dont know about atlanta, is what i meant to say

[NYs Maine Man]

I sweat Jon Garland. He is young, and has good stuff, and would benefit, similar to Bronson Arroyo, to a switch to the NL. I'd love him.

[bdid]

Apparently this site says Glavine and Braves have already agreed on a deal for 6.5 million with a 7 million option for 2008. It costs money, so I'm not joining! It's from a fairly reputable braves blog.

http://story.scout.com/a.z?s=248&p=2&c=595368&ssf=1&RequestedURL=http%3a%2f%2fbraves.scout.com%2f2%2f595368.html

[nrmax88]

Garland would be nice, iof the sox want milledge and pelfrey for Vazquez or garcia, then i think they would want the same thing for garland

[nrmax88]

Good riddens tommy boy

[NYs Maine Man]

Damn you Glavine...damn you. Schuerholtz ripped you in his book, and you go crawling back. Pathetic.

[nrmax88]

Wow, most exciting knick game all season, Bulls needed 100 points for free Big Macs for everyone in attendance. Bull come up the court with 98 points, 26 seconds left in the game 24 on the shot clock. Duhon nails a 3 with 2 second left. FREEE BIG MACS, THE CROWD EXPLODES. CHRIS DUHON... WHATA GUY!

[nickjs21]

I'm not sure how valuable Hendrickson is. His ERA got worse last year after moving from the AL East to the NL.

Here's a scary thought. His third most comparable pitcher, according to Baseball Reference, is Hideki Irabu.

Any of the White Sox pitchers I think is likely, though.

[nrmax88]

Foirget about glavine. When Pelfreys in the bigs in 08, we wont even remember tommy glavine

[NYs Maine Man]

I am terribly disappointed in Glavine. I won't lie. Our staff was in questionable shape, as it was. Minaya has a lot of work to do, if those reports are true.

[desturbd1]

Umm...remember that Igawa link bsox posted? Here's the same guy's reaction to the Yanks' winning the bid.

http://prospectinsider.wordpress.com/2006/11/28/stupid-yankees-and-other-notes/

Yeah, you can kinda tell from the URL where the post is going with this. And don't worry, he's mad at Boston for spending so much on Matsuzaka, too. As optimistic as the previous was about Igawa...this one's just about a full reversal. Same guy, too, so it could just be bitterness that Igawa got signed by New York. Or, and in my opinion this scenario is just as likely, the writer is simply acknowledging the fact that, regardless of what he and the 1 or 2 dudes he quoted earlier have to say...Igawa is a gigantic question mark. Who may not even make it as a starter. And who may end up costing New York $15MM a year to take a spot in the bullpen.

[bsox21]

Maineman,

You and I look at pitchers extremely differently.

I'm sure PEterson likes Zito. He raised him.

What concerns me is the years he wants. With pitchers, contracts longer than 2-3 years have proven to be a total crapshoot and a losing investment.

Mike Mussina and Javier Vazquez have are the "successes" when u look at big contracts for pitchers over the years.

Not too tempting.

His peripherals are getting worse at an alarming rate, even while pitching in perhaps baseball's BEST pitchers park.

He has a TON of mileage on his arm.

4 years, $42 million?

I'll take him.

6 years, $85+ million?

Forget it.

[YankeeBaseball]

That article says he's CLOSE to signing with Atlanta for 7-8mil with maybe an option for another year. Hardly definitive.

[bdid]

Brave.com message board is all over this Glavine thing... they really believe they've signed him... crud.

[NYs Maine Man]

I agree with those assessments, for once, bsox21. I do not want to pay him that money either. But as it appears Glavine is leaving-- we are left with a rotation of El Duque, Oliver Perez, and John Maine. Humber, Pelfrey, and Bannister are prospects with little experience at this point.

I know Zito has become inconsistent, but we do not even have a # 2 SP on the team right now, never mind an ace. I think my love of the Mets is clouding my judgement, but we need arms, and Zito costs us money and years, not players.

I am a fan of Vazquez, I like his stuff, power arm. I am concerned with the issues he had in his previous stint in NY, as well as his inconsistent ERA over the past few seasons.

In closing, I don't know what I would do if I was Minaya. He has a championship calibur Offense and Defense. He could use an arm in the pen, but it is solid if Duaner comes back. The SP is a mess-- Mess! So difficult to decide.

[bdid]

Yankeebaseall...

I never trust a website like that for something "definitive" But that's as close to it as we've got right now... Omar better be calling about Zito right now!

[bsox21]

one thing you can't take away from Glavine tho, is that he gave us his all.

He gave us the same calm, poised, professional approach that has been his trademark his whole career.

He pisses me off but I have enormous respect for him as a player.

[NYs Maine Man]

Yeah i know, going to be hard watching him again in a Braves uniform next year pitching against us, with images of his 2 post season gems for us in my head...very difficult.

[nrmax88]

Of course same here, but whatever, if he really, truly, wants to go back to atlanta, then ok good luck and i understand. If this is some Mike Hampton bullshit, about Colorado school systems being better or some shit like that, then screw u bye bye. Whos laughen now, mike hampton, or the mets(who got D Wright out of that deal.) I still think it is better to overpay zito with 15 mil a year, then to over pay padilla, meche, or lilly like 12 a year

[bsox21]

I love Vazquez.

Keep in mind he had an All Star first half with the Yankees.

I think he just got tired in the second half as he pitched an incredible # of innings at that age for a power pitcher.

When he went to Arizona, he didn't want to be ther and his family had travel difficulty. (I know becuz one of my former co-workers was his neighbor when he lived in New Jersey.)

He still sheed flashes.

With Chicago, he's been hit some but he's also dominated at times.

He has dealt with extremely shoddy defense too.

It seemed especialyl bad when he pitched (I know because hes on my fantasy team.).

No pitcher compares in terms of consistency reagarding WHIP and K/BB, which are great signs.

He's also going into a contract year.

A motivated Vazquez in Shea stadium would kick some serious ass.

[nrmax88]

What i meant to say was if he really wants to go back to atlanta for his wife and kids i understand

[YankeeBaseball]

If you told me the Yanks were going to sign zito for 5yr 75mil, I would be totally against it. But the mets? Yes! Pitchers ballpark, The National League with pitchers batting and reunited with his guru, that my friends is a winning trifecta! I could see Zito as a met pitching to a low 3 era and winning 20. And further, he never misses a start. I think it's gonna happen. It just makes too much sense and fits Omar's MO.

[NYs Maine Man]

Would you trade Milledge and a picthing prospect for him? And whom to you think that prospect would be? After losing Bradford, Mota suspended...I do not want to trade Heilmann.

[desturbd1]

"I still think it is better to overpay zito with 15 mil a year, then to over pay padilla, meche, or lilly like 12 a year"

You really think Zito's only gonna cost $15MM a year? If Padilla or Lilly are worth $12MM...what's the former Cy-Young winning horse get? We haven't really seen any crazy SP signings yet...but still...unless it's 6/$90 or 7/$105, I don't think 15 will be enough.

[YankeeBaseball]

I wouldn't trade Pelfrey, that's fer sure.

[NYs Maine Man]

Whoever gets Zito will be paying him $16 million a year I believe.

6 years $96 million sounds right.

[bsox21]

I would give up Milledge and Bannister for Vazquez.

If they said no, I'd offer Milledge, Soler and nice single A player.

Before I would've said deal Heilman and MIlledge, but as u said, our pen jus got raped.

[NYs Maine Man]

Yeha it did, Speir would have looked nice in our pen. Or Baez, but not for that loot.

[desturbd1]

"Whoever gets Zito will be paying him $16 million a year I believe.

6 years $96 million sounds right."

Agreed. But a 7th year wouldn't surprise me, not even a little bit.

[NYs Maine Man]

I hear you desturbd...no argument here.

[bsox21]

I wouldnt even discuss Pelfrey unless u blew me away.

[NYs Maine Man]

You guys think it would be wise, or dumb, to try and break Pelfrey or Humber into the majors by putting them in the pen, like Papelbon, McCarthy, or Wainwright. Thoughts?

[bsox21]

I cant pay a pitcher over $10 mil after wlaking more than 100 in his contract year.

I don't care what the other stats look like.

[NYs Maine Man]

Bsox21, so I assume you want No part of Zito?

[bsox21]

I think it would be a good fit for Humber, with the low 90's heat and Curve working for him.

I dont want Pelfrey overthrowing, so I don't know about him.

[allabouthephils]

"6 years $96 million sounds right."

Zito will get more than that... expect 20MM a year once the bidding war starts... No other free agent pitcher is in his class this year...

[NYs Maine Man]

Yeah, and the other concern would be having the young arms having to pitch numerous days in a row, I suppose, something I am sure they're arms are not used to.

[bsox21]

I don't want Zito at these prices.

[NYs Maine Man]

$20 million a year? What are you smoking, because I'd like some! That's be the second largest contract in the MLB today per-year standards...that is NOT happening!

[NYs Maine Man]

Unless it's Texas. They'd probally offer him an ARod-esq contract.

[allabouthephils]

It was said Schmidt was offered 3 at 45 today by the Cubs... Which means he will probably get 5 at 75...

He isn't in Zito's class...
Imagine what that offer alone did to Zito's value...

[NYs Maine Man]

Schmidt isn't in Zito's class? Schmidt is better, but lacks the durability and is 5 years older than Zito.

[bobo]

Look at these lists, figure out where Zito would place in them, and then pray your team isn't stupid enough to even get involved in bidding for his services:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2006/11/tier_2_starting.html

Does anyone know when the bids for Igawa were placed? Supposedly Schmidt told the Yankees he doesn't want to play on the east coast - perhaps this was in reaction to that. I think the Yankees wanted a lefty, decided Igawa was preferable (and possibly cheaper) to Lilly, and made the move.

And remember, they don't have to sign him - $4M a year is perfectly reasonable for a pitcher who is that unknown, and if he doesn't take it, nothing lost.

[bsox21]

"Schmidt isn't in Zito's class? Schmidt is better, but lacks the durability and is 5 years older than Zito."

You're on a roll today..

I'd pay Schmidt 45 for 3 before I pay Zito 90 for 6.

[NYs Maine Man]

I would, as well. Schmidt is a more consistent pitcher.

And was that sarcasm?

[nrmax88]

I dont think there is any team in baseball who would give him 20 mil a year. The only reason i would trade milledge for vazquez, is because of gomez and Fmart in the minors

[NYs Maine Man]

White Sox and Angels discussing the following deal:

Freddy Garcia & Joe Crede

for

Chone Figgins and Ervin Santana

[nrmax88]

Zito that is

[ArodSucksAtLife]

"Jake, that was a Boston writer's biased interpretation of the rules."

Yeah cause thats what Boston sports writers are famous for....bias.

[bsox21]

No. I agree with a couple points uv made.

Wont last, but I'm enjoying it while it lasts.

[allabouthephils]

Ohhh wow... that's a bold statement to make... In my opinion, Zito is the best and will command the most money... He is a lefty, which might not mean anything other than more money... He is more durable, younger, has a better overall record...He has also won a cy young award... Don't quote me but I think he has a better overall winning percentage too... I would take Zito in a heartbeat... I wouldnt pay any pitcher ( outside of anyone named Johan) 20 MM a year for 6 or 7 years... But I dont think that will stop the Rangers or the Mets

[NYs Maine Man]

I miss Tim. This site was much more up-to-date when he was around. Although hats off to you, Jeffrey Sackmann, you're not doing a bad job filling in.

[NYs Maine Man]

Isn't Schmidt from Seattle? I've heard rumors of him to the Mariners since last season...he is probally using other squads as leverage in negotiations.

[allabouthephils]

Yes, and there are rumors up here in the papers that the Mariners are setting up to make a run at him...

Im from Washington st...

[nrmax88]

Thinking back to Mike hampton, it really is sad how he ruined his whole dam career cuz he was greedy and went to the rockies. I never realized how good he actually, until i looked at his pre and post rockie numbers.

[allabouthephils]

Hampton was good with the Astros... He actually had some life when he was traded to the Braves... Then he had some arm probs and was never the same again... Could have been a lot better though...

[NYs Maine Man]

Yes, it's true, Hamptoin was a "stud" for 3 years prior to his greed. He could have stayed in NY, made money, become an icon, and possibly went to another WS. But the school systems in Colorado were better, so I guess he made the right decision.

[bsox21]

We have no chance at Schmidt.

I think Redman and Rick Peterson would be an interesting marriage.

[NYs Maine Man]

You like Redman that much? He is good, but I don't know. Another soft-tossing lefty. I am not crazy about him.

[bsox21]

Hampton was a f-ing beast before Colorado.

He di it to himself.

HIs career could have been awesome for like $10 million less or something, which he could've made back from bonuses, endorsements and shit like that.

Hampton is a moron.

[bobo]

Wait - Hampton was ever good?

I guess if walking 100 guys a season with a command rate of 1.5 is good...

He's the same pitcher now as he was before he went to Colorado.

[JakeOD21]

I think it's probably safe to declare that Mike Hampton's contract with the Rockies was the single most ridiculous contract in baseball history. That winter overall was pretty ridiculous.

In a few years, we might be looking at this winter the same way.

[bsox21]

Redman sucks, but my money says Peterson could turn him into a #4 or #5 pitcher for a good team.

Hampton was awesome man.

[allabouthephils]

Hampton had a record of 22-8 one year and then followed it up with another real strong season... He was the man for like 3 years....

[NYs Maine Man]

10-10 3.59
15-10 3.83
11-7 3.36
22-4 2.90
15-10 3.14

Nah, those stats aren't any good, especially that 22-4 season. Hampton always stunk.

[allabouthephils]

Hamptons' contract was actually justifiable at the time... Colorado was looking for pitching... Same thing with the Denny Neagle deal.

The three worst contracts were the Albert Belle deal, the Mo Vaughn deal and my fav the Darren Driefort deal...

[allabouthephils]

thanks for the assist there MY Maine Man... I had the 22 right... lol

[allabouthephils]

thanks for the assist there MY Maine Man... I had the 22 right... lol

[NYs Maine Man]

Chan Ho Park didn't make your list?

[JakeOD21]

A friend and former teammate of mine was drafted by the Braves this year, and when he was in instructional league in Sept., Hampton started a game my friend was to pitch in. The plan was for Hampton to go 3 inn and my friend to 2 inn. Hampton couldnt even make it out of the second inning, my friend had to come in and bail him out. This was instructional league. I'm serious.

[NYs Maine Man]

See, I think Dave Williams is just as good as Redman, same kinda guy, I'd try him out before Redman. Although, Redman WAS AN ALL-STAR last year, haha!

[allabouthephils]

Thats a good list... The worst contracts in history....

[NYs Maine Man]

Like we were saying, Hampton has not been the same since his years in Colorado.

[NYs Maine Man]

I still thank the lord Juan Gonzalez didn't sign with the Mets' that offseason...

[JakeOD21]

I forgot about all those. But Hamptons was the biggest deal and he wound up being such a huge flop, I still think his was the worst. I'd say Driefort was 2nd, Park 3rd. At least Mo had a couple of very good years on that contract.

[bsox21]

My most memorable Hampton moment was when he turned Ronnie Lott on that fan that ran on the field.

That was an explosive hit.

Hampton was jacked.

whats funny, are his pre-colorado #s are eerily similr to Zito's.

[allabouthephils]

What about Albert Belle though.... His Baltimore deal not only was a flop... But it hindered them absolutely unmovable as far as moves for like 5 years.....They just got out of that when they signed Tejada...

[bsox21]

I rate Dreifort's contract the worst ever.

At least the Rangers and Rockies were buying players that were great before their contracts.

Dreifort alwys sucked. I've never been so surprised by a contract until they announced his $55 mil deal.

I was speechless.

[NYs Maine Man]

Baltimore or Texas? Which franchise is dumber with their money?

A side armer in Bradford, with a history of back issues, just got 3 years $10.5- $11 million. Not bad, in theory, but they also signed Baez, Walker and Williamson. Thats a lot of loot for a "good" bullpen, no great.

[allabouthephils]

I actually argued with a guy that said Baltimore's signings made their bullpen the best in baseball now....

Truely amazing...

[JakeOD21]

Hampton would have played defensive back for Bobby Bowden had it not been for baseball.

[allabouthephils]

I got another horrible one..... the kevin brown deal... 8 at 105... or something close...

[allabouthephils]

The Griffey contract for what it's worth was probably up there too...

[NYs Maine Man]

To some extent, allaboutphils, it makes their pen one of the strongest. BUT, Bradford can only get righties out, Williamosn is an enigma, and has bounced around. I like Baez, always have, but he is not a "shut-down" set-up man. It is not full-proof, and you figure for all the loot they spent, it would be extraordinary.

I love the Twin's pen, still. Crain, Nathan, Rincon, Guerrier....not too shabby

[NYs Maine Man]

Ken Rosenthal:

There are two ways to view the Orioles' investment of nearly $42 million in relievers Jamie Walker, Danys Baez and Chad Bradford.

A. The Orioles, coming off nine consecutive losing seasons, needed to overpay each reliever in a three-year contract to attract him to Baltimore, or,
B. The Orioles have lost their minds.

Haha, at least I am not the only one who feels this way.

[bobo]

Hampton was durable and left-handed, and put up some good ERAs and W-L records. I'll grant you that.

But his walk rate was too high, and his K rate too low. His one "standout" season in Houston was aided by a very low hit rate. He was very lucky.

To his credit, he was great at keeping the ball on the ground. But he's just as good at it post-Colorado. Colorado didn't "ruin" him.

No, he didn't suck. I supposed you could call him "good", but that depends on your definition. I prefer to call him "more or less league average but pretty damn lucky."

[bsox21]

I don't think Griffey counts.

That's like calling jon Lester a bad draft pick becauz he got cancer.

[NYs Maine Man]

I agree, hampton's control was always an issue. You can go 15-11 with luck (see Steve Trachsel)-- but 22-4? That is beyond lucky...he had some very nice talent at that point in time.

[NYs Maine Man]

Haha, true. Griffey Jr. is the best player I've seen in his prime, whom I am relatively confident had never used performance enhancing drugs. He gets an exemption.

[allabouthephils]

See Griffey always stirs the kool aid...

Would you consider Helton's 141.5 for 10 years a bust because they have never made the playoffs since he's signed ???

[nrmax88]

bobo thats a good point, like some people would like to call u a retard, while me, being the sensitive guy i am, prefer to call you mentally challenged. Um 73 wins and and ERA under 4 over 5 years isnt lucky