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Clemens Moving On From Astros?

John P. Lopez of the Houston Chronicle says of the Astros:

"The organization, like you and me, would be surprised if Clemens wears Astros pinstripes again."

I hadn't realized that Clemens's departure was considered probable.  Right now it appears that the Astros are going with Oswalt, Jennings, Williams, and two question marks.  The front two starters can rack up some innings, but Williams could easily go 100 innings and leave the team with half of a rotation.  Given the money already spent, I think the Astros should go all out and secure one more starter.

If Houston really has little chance for Clemens, Boston and Texas become the frontrunners.

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why not the yankees?

ROFLMAO.

wow.


I was Soooo wrong to think that the astros weren't going to get either clemens or pettitte back, huh?


Suck. My balls. Houston Fans. HAHAHAHA!!!

"If Houston really has little chance for Clemens, Boston and Texas become the frontrunners."

wow you're really a Yankee hater aren't you?

how many people kept saying that Pettitte would never go back to the Yankees? now think of that in regard to Clemens

Hater? You are odd.

I don't see it with NY as they seem to have the pitching depth. But sure, they can be in there. Don't take it personally.

okay, maybe hater is too harsh, my bad

but the question is 'Why didn't you include the Yankees?'

here's another one for you..
did you think that Pettitte was NOT gonna go to the Yankees?

Pettitte and Clemens are two different cases, two different people that have different circumstances. Personally, I don't think Clemens will pitch this year, and going to Texas is far-fetched since he has played them like fools his last two free agent years. I don't see room on either Boston or NY's starting rotation, but if you can get a guy like this, you make room.

Sure why not the Yankees... Every team should have a 7 man rotation with a 9MM 7th starter..... LOL.... the Yankees are a joke.

Wang
Johnson
Pavano
Petitte
Mussina
Igawa

Watch they'll end up doling out a 20MM dollar a year deal with enough years on it to take him into his mid 50's

Wait, the Yankees have the pitching depth, but the Red Sox don't? How does that work?

I can't see the Yankees NOT being the favorite, with money being the #1 reason.

My early guess is he signs in May with whichever team out of the Red Sox/Yankees has more injuries/questions/poor performers at the time.

Actually in my opinion, the Red Sox are the ones with pitching depth, not the Yankees. I would think that it boils down to the Yankees and the Yankees, with the Astros being a long shot 3rd place.

Texas needs an entire outfield, 2 starters, plus Clemens before they become better than second class. You think Clemens had bad times in Houston? Texas is slowly erroding into a really bad team. Their present starting outfield could combine to hit for less than 30 homers...guh.

I just don't see why teams are willing to spend 20mil. on a guy that wants to pitch a half season! Everyone is upset about the contracts for this years fa pitchers and now they wanna shed out loot for a half season. obviously clemens is not your ordinary pitcher but come on that's just not something that teams should be that willing to do.

I have been waiting for someone to say " I hope the cubs get him"

-the Red Sox already have depth in their rotation, have spent a lot already, and still need to address other holes in their team

-the Rangers according to Darin also have many things yet to address and still don't seem to be poised to contend

-Houston seems to be out of it based on this rumor entry

- the Yankees have 3 things going for them.. Clemens' buddy, Pettitte, is already on the team; the Yankees don't have to address many field positions (just a firstbaseman and backups); and they have the cashflow

He won't go to the Red Sox. He'd be a good fit for Texas if they don't land Zito. I'm fine with that. But please, PLEASE IF THERE IS A GOD, don't let him go to the Yankees.

the contract would be for a prorated 20mil which means he would not really make 20 mil he would make 10 mil for half a season

also no one should be bringing up the rangers at all because clemen's agent has said that it is between the astros, yankees and red sox ... so now the astros are seen as out of it its down to the yankees and red sox

The Red Sox have just as good of shot at Clemens as the yankees. Why? Because neither team really has much say in the matter. Both have said if Clemens wants to play they WILL make room for him. So the decision his Clemens to make.

Honestly, after watching him on the Yankees for a few years, I'm not sure he can be all that successful there (or elsewhere in the AL).

I was completely unimpressed with him, to the point where his numbers in the NL were absolutely shocking at first.

Its funny that all these yankee fans are NOW saying the Sox have pitching depth. I've heard so many "Schill and Wake are old" "Beckett sucks" "Dmat is unproven"

If you keep saying that how can you argue we have pitching depth?

Predicting Pettitte to return to Houston doesn't indicate an anti-Yankee bias. I predicted they'd sign Matsuzaka.

that's not what i was saying, Roto (may i call you Roto?)

i was talking about the naysayers who thought that Pettitte would never go back to the Yankees; and now i'm wondering if those naysayers are also thinking that's it's not possible that Clemens would go back to the Yankees

I ask you this gobosox420..... If the Red Sox released Schilling, Beckett, Dice-K, and Wakefield would they all be 10MM plus a year pitchers ??? Everyone knows they would, the Sox have pitching depth beyond just about every other team in baseball including the Yankees...... That doesn't mean they wouldn't add to that though.... I would personally like to see the rocket end up in Boston... He started there and I think alot of us non objective fans would like to see him end up there...

I'm not saying they dont have pitching depth. Im asking these yankee fans who have been SHITTING on our pitching lately. Anytime a sox fan brings up the strength of our rotation it's shot down by those quotes I posted. Not to mention by your definition the yankees have just as much pitching depth as we do.


Like I said in my first comment. I think BOTH teams have an equal shot at getting him. It's up to Rocket, wherever he wants to go. You add clemens to either rotation, even midseason and you're talking world series favorite, barring injury.

I don't think too many non objective fans want to see Clemens as a money hungry miser... That's the impression I would get if he goes to New York to end his career..... He belongs in Boston... He started there... He had some of his greatest games and seasons as a Red Sock... I still see him as a member of the Red Sox.. I can't see him as a Blue Jay or an Astros and definately not a Yankee.... He is too great a pitcher to pitch every 14th day or whatever... Aren't they up to 14 starting pitchers now...

I don't know what Yankee fans have been "shitting" on Boston's pitching. Most (myself included) have admitted that the Sox have a stronger rotation.

RE: Clemens going to the Red Sox - weren't there some pretty bad feelings after they let him go? Something to the effect of them saying he was done? I know that was the previous regime, but I think it remains at least a little.

Torre has already said numerous times clemens wouldnt get the special treatment he got in houston if he pitchen in NY. Hahah the yankees pitching is becoming filled with juicers, assuming the rocket comes in. Maybe he will pick up another bat and throw it at piazza again. *cough cough ** roid rage *cough

Bobo- Just look through any post where sox/yanks are arguing. I've seen many yankee fans saying the sox rotation has way too many questions to be considered strong. If thats the case then you can't turn around and say they have depth.

Maybe the cubs can trade jacque jones to clemens agent for the right the negotiate with the rocket. If his agent doesntr like it, the cubbies casn always throw in izturis and ronny cedeno

"Bobo- Just look through any post where sox/yanks are arguing. I've seen many yankee fans saying the sox rotation has way too many questions to be considered strong. If thats the case then you can't turn around and say they have depth"

Yeah dude you r right. I forget who, but some idiot yesterday was saying that mussina is better then matsuzaka because muss is a known commodity, but somehow on his same post he tells us how igawa is better then beckett. Or something like that.

I hope he goes to Texas and gets rocked. Why does every Yankee fan believe that they are entitled to every player on the market? Also, why does every Red Sox fan dilute themselves into think Clemens will be a white horse and be their savior? I wouldn't want him if i was either team. He will turn into a headache and there is a large chance of him not being the stud he looks like in the NL Central.

SLOW DOWN...

I'm not that familiar myself because I don't live in Houston, but I know that my friends there consider Lopez to be the resident flunkie, always quick with interpretations built on skimpy facts.

http://p078.ezboard.com/fevilwontwinfrm3.showMessage?topicID=7851.topic

I can't see Roger going to the Rangers. It makes no sense. What is there to gain? Money isn't the only factor here (surprise)

I think he is out of Houston, I have said it since October. He asked to pitch the final home game on short rest, he said goodbye to the fans, and they have a poor team. There is no reason to go back.

Retirement, Boston or NY. I am going to assume retirement is a not an option. Boston or NY. I can't see Clemens going to NY just because Pettitte did. He could go to NY, for the money, but there is no legacy there. He could win a WS ring, but the yankees are not guaranteed it, and he has a couple in a few years at NY, why ruin that.

Boston has the legacy factor. Start and end in the same place, HOF cap probably boston's, etc etc oh and he could win a WS ring.

Boston has pitching depth, but they said they had that in Spring training this year, and that worked out badly. Someone could go into the bullpen which is not strong.

And I am sure the Sox will shell out some money to bring back Clemens for a year, it would be a great boost for everyone. Clemens may be willing to drop his price tag as well.

If all the mid-season rumours true, people said he wanted to be traded to Boston, or regretted signing with the Astros.

sturt, you're right. i don't believe a word written by lopez nor jose de jesus ortiz. they just spread unfounded rumors.

in addition, no one's paying twenty million for half a season of work. the astros paid him about $11mil for his half-season. it's called PRO-RATED $22,000,022. meaning, if he pitched the whole season, that would be his pay.

but i thought that was common knowledge?

also, clemens isn't going to the rangers. that would be dumb on his part.

I think clemens would pitch for the royals if they offered him enough money and perks

Lopez, Ortiz and especially Dick Justice are all bad at coming up with "rumors" or what not. The radio guys are the worst of the bunch.

The Astros front office is usually pretty guarded about their dealings, so I would take the comment with some grain of salt...

That said, I still don't see him coming back to Houston. But putting money aside (and the Astros can pay the Rocket whatever Boston or Yankees decide to offer) he has many more reasons to play for the Astros than the Red Sox or Yankees.

And can we please stop with this crap about legacy, and going into the hall of fame with a Red Sox cap? 1st the Hall of Fame choses which hat a player is inducted with, and Clemens has previously stated that if he had a choice he want to go in a Yankee.

Personally I'd prefer a push for a closer, then a trade of lowell that would allow the sox to pick up a 1b..then if thats taken care of clemens.


Although no one really has to do anything, its all up to where he wants to play.

"He could go to NY, for the money, but there is no legacy there."

lol, didn't Clemens say that he wanted to enter the Hall of Fame as a Yankee only?

Well first of all Clemens and Boston are on better terms than when he said thing about the Yankees cap.

And its not his choice anyway.

He has still played over half his career in Boston, and 5 years in NY. 5vs13

^ and who on the Red Sox is left from any of those 13 seasons?

with the Yankees, there's still Jeter, Posada, Mariano, Bernie Williams(if he gets an extension), Andy Pettitte, and Joe Torre

levelboss is this ur first day on this site. dont disagree with Roto he made this site for you to chat on. where is bsox when u need him eh.

anyway on this whole Clemens thing i could really care less. although i agree with nrmax when he says Clemens would go to the Royals if they offer enough money and perks. He could just as well go to the Mets, Braves, Mariners, Cubs(god forbid), White Sox, or Angels. It all matters on money and perks.

could u just imagine that White Sox rotation with Clemens.

The last I checked, the Red Sox didn't have holes. They have one stated hole at closer, but that's not even very true.

The only possible MLB addition they would have left is a closer. Just thought I'd mention their offseason is 99% over.

Ok, your point being? If friends were really that important Roger would never have left.

I still cannot see a reason why Clemens would go back to NY. As I said, the rumours were not about him wanting to be traded to NY, it was the Red Sox.

I am just saying I still think the Red Sox are his first choice. He is not looking for glory and a ring, hes looking for the best way to leave baseball, and finishing off his career in Boston is a nice full circle, it puts the past behind him, and creates a lovely story with him and the Sox fans.

Pettitte is looking for a ring, and thats why he has gone to NY, plus those guys you mention?

Why do you think Pettitte left houston? He knows (or at least pretty sure) Clemens will not be there. NY is pettites glory reunification.

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"Personally I'd prefer a push for a closer..."

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Wonder if there's any worthwhile gossip in Beantown about Lidge still (?).

I could see the Stros parting with him if the BoSox were willing to part with some of the kinds of pieces that GM Purpura let go in the whole Pettitte/Jennings saga--namely, a young lefty like Lester, a hot CF prospect like Ellsbury, and a prospect with the potential to replace Lidge like Hansen.

if the Red Sox made that trade that woudl possibly be one of the worst trades in franchise history. if Lidge cant handle a HR then he cant handle Boston

"levelboss is this ur first day on this site"

um, not first day, not even close

and i'll disagree whenever i want to disagree; since when did you become Roto's personal cheerleader? you have the pom-pom's to match?

And Lester and Ellsbury are not going anywhre, So no deal will be done, and Sox will stick with internal closing options and look to trade if those cannot get the job done.

Do you seriously think Lidge is worth Hansen+Lester+Ellsbury? Brad Lidge?

Theo has said he would like to move youk back to 3rd and get a 1b. Whether its now, midseason or next offseason he wants to get it done.

Plus, they've also said they are not pursuing clemens. But if he decides he wants to end it in Boston they'd try to do whatever they could to ensure that.

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"Do you seriously think Lidge is worth Hansen+Lester+Ellsbury?"

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I think that's the starting point in a dialogue, were one to get started. Not suggesting it would end there, but yes, I think the three TYPES of players (if not one, two, or all three of those specific players) I've identified would be requisite to getting something done.

If Epstein couldn't deal with that, so be it.

I have trouble believing Lidge is worth even a single top prospect. Much less 2 or even 3. You cannot seriously believe Lidge is worth 2-3 top prospects. Hansen might be the only one that would get dealt. That is a huge maybe though. Lester is coming off cancer, we aren't going to just deal him. Ellsbury is our number 1 prospect, he is not getting dealt for lidge.

thanks to levelboss i ahve now compiled the stupidest commenters on this site
5.levelboss
4.sturt
3.cubbies07
2.all cubs fans (except Roto and Gleebo)
1.Das Cube

I don't think the Astros are willing to give up on Lidge. I think he's the main reason the Stros brought in Dave Wallace as their pitching coach.

I wasn't suggesting the sox trade for lidge. I was just disputing his value.

GoBo, first, I'm not the person who brought up Lidge to the BoSox... that came out of the Boston media. I think you realize that, but maybe you didn't.

As to your comment that Lidge isn't "worth even a single top prospect," let's get real... practically every major league player has been a "prospect" at some point... yet only a precious few of them actually turn out to be starters, let alone, stars.

Lester is prime property, that's understood. But right now, he's on the outside-looking-in from your starting rotation.

Ellsbury is your #1 prospect for now... this time next year, who knows. Maybe. Maybe not.

And I've seen nothing to suggest that anyone in your organization deems Hansen to be the choice for closer.

That's three guys, lots of talent, but one of which doesn't have a place for now, one of which is a year removed from being a viable threat to gain a roster spot, and the other doesn't appear to inspire a lot of enthusiasm in spite of his 95 mph fastball.

Such a trade for Lidge would be a trade for something more certain than your prospects (Ellsbury and Hansen), and a trade for reallocating talent from the rotation to the pen (Lester).

It's no secret that Lidge 06 wasn't Lidge 05. And yet, there's a reason why there continues to be so much interest in the player.

At the end of the day, if you don't think my analysis is realistic/meaningful... no skin off my back. I have no reason to regard your opinion, either, and that shouldn't get your knickers in a knot.

But to answer your question, yes, I do think that when you note the trades made this off-season, while this might not be the exact trade that could be worked out, it would be closer to viable than what you give it credit. It may end up just two of the three, or it may end up with one or two substitutes (Murphy for Ellsbury? Delcarmen for Hansen?) for the players I named, but it's a whole lot closer than your suggestion that Lidge isn't even worth ONE real prospect.

But on the other hand... bravesrule, coming from a person of such obvious high intellect such as yourself, I'm mortally wounded... won't you pleeeeeeeease reconsider?????

*smirk/rolling eyes*

Subbing Delcarmen and Murphy is bringing the level of prospects down by a considerable amount. So yes, that is a much different and viable trade.

It doesnt matter if the Sox inquired about lidge. I wasnt disputing whether or not they did. And I said that I hadnt.

In regards to roster spots. I dont really see it being an issue. All 3 of these guys are starting the year in AAA and unless they're performance dictates otherwise they'll remain there. Next year we will have room and hopefully they're called up.

GoBo... fair enough.

Im not doubting Lidges' talent. However closers are not the guys you want to trade 2-3 top prospects for. Unless they're guaranteed to perform. And we've seen with many many closers that performance is not guaranteed.

Yeah, I understand, but you do what you think is best at the time, given the resources available.

I agree that closer is a position easily over-valued... and yet, when you don't have one, it can ruin a lot of morale when the team constantly wins innings 1 thru 8, only to have inning 9 get dicey time after time.

You just have to weigh it all and figure out the best option... if that's not Lidge, so be it.

GoBoSox, you are right. The Red Sox FO is not going to overreact to perception about weakness in the "closer's role." We all know how fond those guys are of Bill James, and we all know how Bill James feels about closers. Getting three outs in the 9th inning with a three run lead is something any ML pitcher should do. Sure, the Sox wish Delcarmen, Hansen, or Cox were further along but that's just not the case. I don't think the club will deal off top prospects for someone to finish games. It's not their style.

Here's an idea I've had of late: I know the Marlins are trying to trade for Armando Benitez, heard the talks were stalled but it might still happen. If that's the case, does anyone else think it's possible the Marlins might trade Taylor Tankersley to the Sox for David Murphy? Not saying Tankersley would be come the Sox closer immediately, but he would be a leading candidate for the job, would he not? That's provided Tankersley isn't dealt for Benitez. This is purely speculation on my part.

clemens' agent has already said that if he plays next year, only the yanks stros and sox are in the running. the sox have already said that they are unlikely going to try to sign him and apparently the stro are out of it so that would only leave the yanks left. im sure at least one of the yanks back end starters will be hurt in a couple months; ie johnson, pavano. and igawa can go into long relief for the secong half of the season and come back to starting next year.
the only way i see him going back to the stros is if they are far enough out of it that they bring his son up to the bigs. dont know how far away he is though, but this move will almost guarentee roger back in houston

Here's the thing. The sox have some nice young arms that will be MLB ready in 2-3 years. We're talking Bowden, Cox, Emart, Bucholz, Bard etc.

Any attempt to land a bonafide closer this offseason is going to cost a lot. Better off plugging the hole and waiting for some arms to pan out.

I still think the Sox could make a push for Laroche. That would be a great pickup.

that would be a great pick up for them, especially with drew as a question mark now.

It would be. The braves have expressed interested in Coco before, I'm sure we could pair him with prospects or maybe even Lowell+Cash

I dont know.. just speculating now.

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"apparently the stro are out of it"

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jersey... don't be deceived by an attention-seeking columnist with a history of making empty statements... the facts are that as recently as last week, Rocket said that he understood both sides of the Pettitte situation, and that the fact that AP signed w/ NYY isn't a factor in his own decision... and, if you think about it objectively for a moment, Rocket isn't the kind of player who would enjoy the image that he's a puppydog following his friend AP from town to town.

One can't know what the man is going to do, but to say that HOU isn't going to pursue it is asinine and wishful thinking.

"..Rocket isn't the kind of player who would enjoy the image that he's a puppydog following his friend AP from town to town"

then maybe $20 mil/yr would do it

Maybe... Steinbrenner wouldn't flinch at that, I'm sure.

But maybe not... The Grocer isn't a poor man, himself.

What exactly are the Braves going to do with Lowell?

The Red Sox said they will not chase Clemens, i.e. No bidding war. If he wants to come back to the Sox to retire, they will probably sign him. Not for 20million pro-rated.

The Sox stil value Hansen, he has talent, just needs to grow more. He should and would have spent most of year at Pawtucket had the bullpen not been destroyed by injuries. Ellsbury is highly thought off, and so is Lester. Lester is the only left hand starter the Sox have, and he good, he is not going anywhere.

If the Sox would not trade guys like Lester and Hansen at the trading deadline, they are not going anywhere now.

There are plenty of internal options for the Sox at closer, and in the last few years, Rookie closers have done well (Jenks, Papelbon, Wainwright) Out of 3-4 internal options, one will step into the role.

And the Sox have great starting pitching, so thats even less pressure on the closer if the lineup does its job (in theory anyway)

And as others have said, strip it down to the bones, its just three outs.

If they can get by with any old closer to the postseason (if they make it) i am sure one of their excess starters (papelbon) could close for the postseason only.

wait, no way would the Astros bring Kolby Clemens to the majors to lure his dad back....that makes no sense what-so-ever. Kolby Clemens was hurt part of '06 and when he did play was pretty bad. His stint in the HFL was horriffic. I don't think at this point, Kolby's in the Astros plans in the forseeable future. Plus why would the Astros, if they were out of it, bring Kolby Clemens up, ensuring his failure, and pay the Rocket $10mil or whatever to play? No sense what-so-ever.

Is anyone taking into account the credibility of John Lopez? The last article I read of his was a gossip column about 'Team Andy'...Houstonians may know what I am talking about. It may be true that Clemens doesn't want to pitch for Houston in 07'. But I think this is another attempt to get his name mentioned on national sports stations, because that is the only thing important to John Lopez. His column is weak.

Darin... just fyi... it's K-o-b-y.

yeah I caught that after I posted...didn't figure it was worth correcting myself over

"What exactly are the Braves going to do with Lowell?"

actually we could trade LaRoche to Boston for Lowell and a prospect. then the Sox could put Youk at third. Chipper can play first base if he has to and we can put Lowell at third. We also signed Chris Woodward who can play all infield and outfield positions and should compete for the second base job.

"We also signed Chris Woodward who can play all infield and outfield positions and should compete for the second base job."

hahahahaha...how far the mighty have fallen, say hello to 4th place hot-lanta.

So, let me get this straight. The houston media is now competent enough to say where clemens will end up? and everyone here believes it? These same people putting so much truth into this rumor are the same ones who tore houstons media apart after the whole garland fiasco. Clemens has said over and over that andy's move to new york wont effect where he decides to go. Sure maybe he goes to new york, and maybe he goes to boston...my money though, is still on the astros. The type of freedom the astros give him wont work anywhere else. Some time last year clemens said the greatest thing about houston is that he can watch his kids school play and still have time to go pitch... you cant do that with a 4 hour commute to new york...or boston. Everyone thought andy would stay in houston...now they all think clemens is going to somewhere else.

There has been some talk about Chipper playing 1st base. If and when Laroche is traded. Lowell would that fill that 3b void. I only proposed a trade of coco+lowell for laroche. Obviously thats not too even for the sox so balance it out somehow. Maybe no cash changes hands or a prospect is added.


this dick!! Does anybody even like this bravesrule guy or kid I should say. come on now you know he's a shorty if he still says something "rules" or he's just slow.

If I were Clemens my first Choice would be the Mets. What team is a more sure bet to be in the post season? The Mets with Clemens would also be even more of a powerhouse.

With all due respect to the Red Sox and Yankee's Either Team could potentialy not make the playoffs even with Clemens. 1. Toronto is there who could steal a spot. 2. A team from the NL Central could take the wild card. 3. They all have to play eachother alot which generaly hurts all of their records.

If Clemens is looking for his Best shot at Winning another World Series I think the Mets have the easiest Path there.

Also so support that post alittle the Mets were willing to go after Zita and Wells so why not Zito and Clemens obviously they have the money available to them.

With all due respect, how is it that it flies by so many that Clemens COULD HAVE had all of that money and/or have made a choice based purely on WS chances EACH OF THE PREVIOUS THREE SEASONS... ???

Nahbabanah... the only thing that's changed this off-season is Pettitte's return to NY, and while he's unmistakingly left the proverbial door open, Roger has given no indication that he feels any differently this off-season than he has the previous three.

Hey...Dev0...First off...The Blue Jays will not steal a spot...Second off...Did you mean the AL Central...I am assuming so...Because...I do not know how that would affect the Yankees or Red Soxs...And by the way...Who is Zita...

Clemens to either the sox or yanks makes either team instanst WS contenders. Devo you're talking out of your ass man

Yes how dare I mistype I clearly know nothing about baseball because I mistyped 1 name once and Said NL by mistake.

The Jays if they get another pitcher via trade are every bit as good as the red sox and the yankee's. Thinking otherwise would be talking out your ass.

Secondly the Yanks and Red Sox are both WS contender possibities now, but so were they last year and Well Boston didn't make the playoffs and the Yankee's didn't look that great.

I'm merely pointing out The Most forsure team to make the playoffs. The Mets and They would also likely have a Much easier Playoff route aswell. While the Yanks and Red Sox would likely have to play eachother theirs also the tigers or White Sox and Really the A's and Angels always put up good teams.

RedSoxHater3 do you actualy know anything about baseball? or is pointing out my spelling mistakes your only arguement.

GoBoSox I completely agree however that does not negate my arguement here. Would the yanks or red sox with clemens have an easier road to the WS or Clemens on the Mets? I think it would be foolish to not think clemens on the Mets.

The mets are hardly GUARANTEED the NL East. Teams in that division got better while the mets rotation is looking a bit iffy.

Adding Clemens to either the yanks or sox gives them just as good of a chance to win the WS as any other team. Regardless of the competition they play to get there.

I dont want to doubt the jays. But I think if both the yanks and even moreso the sox stay healthy you wont see a 2nd play toronto team again.

Well keep in mind also I'm going with the idea that the Mets get Zito which I think they will. Adding Zito and Clemens to the rotation it would be a Major upset if they didn't win the NL east. Even then you'd have to say GUARANTEED the wildcard.

The Yankee's are well the yankee's, the Red Sox I'm not going to sell short, BUT I want to see their Pitching pitch to the level they are expected to before I hand them over a playoff spot. That doesn't even mean the Jays could take it don't forget the White Sox or Tigers either.

First of all, when the Mets sign Zito (when, not if, no one else has got a chance), their cash is gone. Clemens is not a viable option money-wise for the NL part of New York. That's ignoring the fact that Roger's not gonna play for a new team. Yankees, though, obviously have the money, have the history with him, yadda yadda.

But it's all moot anyway, because Clemens is retiring. Last season everyone knew he was going to keep playing, but did any of you watch his last couple home starts? Did anyone else notice how different he acted during those games as compared to his last season? He took the ball to the clubhouse.

But of course, the odds that Clemens comes back aren't none. The ONLY reason people are writing about him going somewhere OTHER than Houston is because they're wishfully thinking. He's not going to leave home. He's not going to pull his kids out before the semester's over (unlike Pettitte, I'm not understanding the reasoning behind that), he's gonna stay at home and not travel unless he's pitching, not show up at the park unless he's pitching, you know the drill. You can't get perks like that unless you play for the home team.

Also, Atlanta's looking at a bleak decade ahead of it. Oh darn.

Skye, while you *might* make some sense otherwise, your failure to admit that you know no more than any of us other pundits--when we all know that we all know virtually nothing other than some historical facts--makes your words particularly meritless, and a waste of bandwidth.

But everything the man has said since the conclusion of the season would lead you to believe that he feels very good about the 2/3 season experiment... and that's very different from how he felt after the 05 WS, when he had to leave his one game started early due to his hammys tightening up as they did for much of the last two months of that season.

I won't say he won't retire... he very well might... but even assuming you're report is correct about taking the ball to the clubhouse, there's nothing to say that that wasn't simply a precautionary move on his part... probably did the same thing at the end of the 05 and 04 seasons, too.

Clearly you don't know what your talking about if you say the Mets have no more money if they sign Zito. The Mets while in the Zito Race which think they will win were also willing to add Vernon Wells and a New contract for him. Where does that money come from?

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