Cubs Sign Jason Marquis

As has been rumored for a while now, the Cubs have signed 28 year-old righthander Jason Marquis.  The Tribune says three years, $20MM, while the Post-Dispatch says three years, $28MM.

I think this is a bad signing.  I was actually naive enough to suggest yesterday that Marquis would draw a tiny commitment of just one year and $3MM - after all, he is coming off a 6.02 ERA.  I figured it would be comparable to the Kip Wells deal - too much uncertainty to guarantee more than a year.

The Cubs didn't feel that way; now it's up to Larry Rothschild to coax three league average innings out of Marquis.  Apparently eating innings, no matter how poorly, is worth $6-9MM per season.

UPDATE: ESPN's Jerry Crasnick says it's for three years and $21MM.

Comments

[Cubsfan7000]

Thats just how the market is this year for pitchers I guess. Average pitchers get 9 million a year.

[eeleye99]

Jesus times are desperate for pitching. You don't even have to be a good piotcher anymore to get a solid contract.

[kevybo1]

That was a terrible signing.

[henry14theking]

Oh I can't wait. The NL central is going to be craptastic.

Waiting for the Cubs fans to rationalize this one too.

Just think... if Dusty hadn't ruined Prior and Wood that one year, the Cubs would've had the best starting 3 in the bigs.

The Cubbies, as always, hilarious.

[nrmax88]

henry i agree lol. This is too funny. The guy on top says average pitchers get 9 million a year... okay, if an average pitcher is a guy with an are over 6, then i guess this is an amazing signing. I can make atleast 5 mil a year to pitch at this rate

[nrmax88]

henry i agree lol. This is too funny. The guy on top says average pitchers get 9 million a year... okay, if an average pitcher is a guy with an are over 6, then i guess this is an amazing signing. I can make atleast 5 mil a year to pitch at this rate

[Blueheart05]

The Trib is reporting the deal around $6M per year. That's not too bad for an innings eater, back of the rotation, guy. Apparently, the Cubs feel they will score enough to be competitive in his starts. In all fairness, his ERA was jacked up largely by two really bad,double digit run, starts...

[NEILarado]

his era was inflated by 2 bad double-digit long relief appearances.. as long as its 3 years/20 mill its not a bad signing for a guy who was 15-7 with a 3.7 era just 2 years ago and can easily pitch 200 innings, which the cubs desperately need..

[henry14theking]

Umm his era without those two outings was still 5. Thats not league average I believe. It shouldn't be in the NL atleast.

This is horrible. Rather have Batista. Or if you're going all out, double the outlay and sign Zito. He's a #2, maybe #1 in the NL.

[stormstarter28]

As a Cardinals fan, I could not be happier. There is NO WAY to justify more than a 1 year, 4 million dollar deal for someone like Marquis. I thought it was bad when we signed Kip Wells, but this makes it look pretty damn good. WOW.

[beauhoopman]

How in the world can people justify this stupid game of "Well, if you take out his 3 worst starts he's not that bad."
-Guess what, there are no mulligans, and taking those games out of his ERA calculation is the most arbitrary and ridiculous thing I've ever seen. Are you presuming he won't have any starts this year where he gives up 10 runs?

[nrmax88]

beauhoopman, in some cases, i disagree, but in this case, when the guys era is over 6, then your right. If the guys era is like 4.10 and he took a beating a few times to save the bullpen some help, then thats different. But when every start is pretty much bad (which card fans will admit to), and 2 of them are absolutely awful, then this is not an excuse. If you want to take out his 2 horrible starts to make his era go down, then how bout you take away his 2 best starts and see what his era is then. Not pretty

[kevybo1]

The Cubs Cubs should have signed Miguel Batista i would have like that signing very much but this was a terrible signing they could have gotten Miguel Batista the same deal.

[henry14theking]

This is a horrid signing. No amount of rationalization will make it better.

In his best, BEST year Marquis was average.

[stormstarter28]

DO the Cubs realize they've spent over 38 million between four players, and they still don't have even a half-way decent rotation to show for it? What's next? No, seriously, how could they screw this offseason up more?

[RotoAuthority]

I understand that you cannot just completely subtract his 3 worst starts. However, most managers do not leave their pitchers in to give up 12 or 13 runs - they pull them after 3 innings and 4 runs when they clearly don't have it.

[greenbaydude1232]

This is the worst signing of the offseason...no matter how you try and twise the #s, this was the worst one. Rothschild is a crap of a pitching coach and can't help him at all. If the cubs are satisfied with zambrano, Lilly, Hill, Marquis, Marshall/Prior/Miller they are crazy. No way that rotation can get them to playoffs even in the NL Central. The cubs had a shot at being good. Instead they decided to spend 6-9 mm on a piece of crap. Marquis is a 6th pitcher on a team with half a decent rotation. And he's going to be the cubs 4 guy. What a joke. Way to fuck up again Hendry.

[greenbaydude1232]

Marquis is only worth 1 yr/1 mm with incentives up to 3-4 and a mutual option year 4-5 mm. That is tops. This signing is a joke.

[henry14theking]

Cubs should've done this:

1. Sign Zito. 5/90 million plus an option for the 6th year which could be bought out for 5 million or so.

2. Sign Lilly. This they did and its not a bad deal.

3. Trade Howry or Eyre to Mets for Bannister. This is obviously hindsight, but if Bannister is only worth Burgos, Howry would fetch him.

4. Sign Gagne to 1 year, 5 million with incentives pushing it up to 8 million, and a vested option for 2nd year.

Rotation: Zambrano, Zito, Lilly, Hill, Bannister.

Closer: Gagne.

Cost: 33-36 million a year! 18 mill for Zito, 10 for Lilly, 5-8 for Gagne.

With the exception of Lilly that rotation is young and durable (although I'm not sure about Bannister).

5. Sign/Trade for a leadoff hitter. Prior's expendable so see what value he returns. Middle of the order is fine with Lee, Ramirez, Barrett and Murton. Baldelli for Prior + prospects? Who knows.

Cubs would have spent about 45 million a year not including Ramirez deal.

Thats what they should've tried to do. If you're going to overpay, overpay for a good player. Not a crappy one.

[Blueheart05]

Zito could easily post a high ERA in either league. Furthermore, his drop in velocity is witness to his decline. Zito will nolonger have the luxury of pitching half of his games in Oakland...

On the topic of Marquis,his lifetime ERA (before this year's season was averaged in) was more indicative of the 4 slot where I predict the Cubs will pitch him. Marquis does give up a lot of homeruns but if we are to believe his career averages, the homeruns will not prevent him from being a decent back of the rotation pitcher... Also, the wind doesn't blow out of Wrigley Field nearly as much as people think; especially not after the reconfiguration of the bleachers.

[tom]

There aren't any mulligans, but one loss is just one loss. If you look at stats that recognize that those bad starts were just a couple of losses, like BPro's support neutral stats, MArquis looks a little better. He was 55th in the majors in E(W). His .468 EW% was 94% of average, which would make him a really good #4 starter. In other words, Marquis's rate stats were disproportionately hurt by a couple bad starts.

I still hate this signing.

[henry14theking]

Umm the Oakland stadium only slightly prefers pitchers (park rating of high 90s I believe).

Zito has an ERA+ > 100 every year in the bigs. Marquis has an ERA+ < 100 over his career.

Trying to rationalize this is beyond ridiculous.

[allabouthephils]

I actually think that if the Cubs were going to overpay for Soriano they should've traded Ramirez last year and fetched some starting pitching... Maybe Ervin Santana??? Or maybe a White Sox starter and Joe Crede ??? Could have saved a ton of money this offseason... If you start trading Howry or Eyre, you are depleting the one positive the Cubs had last year...

Your rotation could've looked like this ( in no particular order)

Zambrano
Hill
Santana
Lilly
Miller/Prior

Not bad considering you could have gotten figgens along with Santana... I havent agreed with the Cubs strategy this offseason at all... I think they will improve, but for the money they have spent... They should be world series contenders and they arent even close.

[Blueheart05]

Hold on, my thoughts about Zito and Marquis were not for comparison purposes. I see Zito as a number 2 pitcher but one can hardly argue the obvious decline in his numbers.

[henry14theking]

True phils, but my scenario's entire point was not to sign Soriano.

That contract will bite them in the ass in 3-4 years.

[allabouthephils]

OHHHHHHHHHH MY LORD....

Did a Cubs fan admit the Soriano deal was a bad one... Holy mackeral thank you. I think you are the first Cubs fan to open his eyes all offseason... Could have signed Preston Wilson or Jose Guillen for 1/3 of the money and 7 less years. Guillen might be the steal of free agency at 1 yr for 5MM...

As to whether or not it bites them in the ass. It most certainly will... The contract is backloaded- first mistake... The contract has a no trade clause through the most valuable years of the contract the first 4- second mistake... The years are wayyyy too long- third mistake..... He hasn't proven he can play solid enough defense to warrant a contract of that size... 4th mistake... I could almost see this contract working if he were in the American league because he would be able to DH if he proves a big enough liability in the outfield... Other than that you are facing a situation similiar to one we are facing with Pat Burrell...

[henry14theking]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I'm not a cubs fan. I'm a Yankees fan.

[allabouthephils]

Ah...... well then the rest of baseball can laugh at the Cubs frivilous spending and realize that they have the most expensive .500 baseball team money can buy... (That distinction used to belong to the Phillies).

[kevybo1]

The Cubs should still sign Miguel Batista and Kenny Lofton.

[henry14theking]

The Cubs are a disaster. Hopefully for you, the Phils can dump Burrell on someone (Try the Angels... they seem to like old OFs who should be DHing or Texas since they lost so many bats).

Looks like its the time to stockpile arms. I'm surprised Sheffield got Yanks 3 of them.

[allabouthephils]

Ive said it before... I think the Brewers would win the division if they got Burrell... The central is a division for the taking... The Brewers have all the other pieces in place...

The hurdles to that would be the Phils wanting Turnbow in any deal they make. Plus, the 2 @ 25 might be too steep for the Brew Crew...

[henry14theking]

Hmmm why Turnbow? He completely lost it as a closer this season.

I'd go after one of their starters.

[allabouthephils]

I actually think the Phils are going to win the NL East just because of the arms they have now...

Garcia
Hamels
Myers
Moyer
Eaton

Plus they are going to trade Lieber for bullpen help... I think this is the best shot they've had in years... They don't have the Mets lineup ( although they are close) but they have a better rotation top to bottom and the bullpen should be at least comparable...

[henry14theking]

Ah crap... I keep forgetting about the Garcia trade.

Why not throw Leiber and Madson out there for trade? Sign Gagne perhaps? Package Burrell + Leiber to an AL team power arms?

[allabouthephils]

"Hmmm why Turnbow? He completely lost it as a closer this season."

"I'd go after one of their starters."

Well mostly because the Phils already have a surplus of starters with Lieber being the odd man out... They have already talked to the Brewers about trading Lieber to them for Turnbow and Mench... Plus, the Phils need a setup man in the pen.

[Aduncaroo]

I hate to break it to you, but Soriano is going to have probably somewhere around 5 seasons on that contract that are better than any one season that Burrell has given you. Plus, we have the payroll to give such a contract, Burrell's handcuffed you way more than Soriano's will for us. The cubs did whatever it took to get the best player available, especially when your Phillies wanted him...real bad. Sounds to me like someone might be just a little bit bitter about losing the best player

[henry14theking]

Like I said.. I kept forgetting about Garcia trade.

I'm no fan of Eaton though. Not a bad #5 however.

[allabouthephils]

Well they are trying to send Lieber to the Rangers for some of their relievers...

They have a surplus at starting pitching which is a good place to be in this market...

I actually love Turnbows arm...95+ fastball with a desvasting slider... I think he will bounce back nicely... Gillick will find the right fit for the pen...

[mmontice]

the cubs are like a deperate guy out at a bar at 3:00 am. they'll overpay for any player, no matter how bad they are. i am a cubs fan, but in my opinion, things have really hit rock bottom here.

[allabouthephils]

Bitter..... No not really... Realistic yes...

I would rather have the Phils pitching staff than Soriano any day... Gillick made the right moves... I wouldn't have paid Soriano that kind of money now or ever... It handcuffs the Cubs more than you realize... Especially since they only did this to drive up the market price for the Cubs when they sell them... A 3rd place teams sells for alot more than a NL's worst team. The Phils will find a suitor for Burrell. Even if they don't Im not worried about it. Burrell puts up decent numbers and is actually a bargain in this market...

I have changed my tune quite abit about Burrell since the beginning of the offseason... But, the market has just exploded with deals like the Soriano deal and the Lee deal......

Let me put it to you this way... I would rather have Pat Burrell at 2 years and 25MM and a no trade than Soriano at 8 years and 136MM with a no trade through the first 4... (no one will trade for him after he has lost his speed because he strikes out every 4th atbat...)

[OPERATIONSHUTDOWN]

Inexplicable. Unjustifiable.

[nrmax88]

henry back to the post you made about the mets trading bannister for howry or eyre. I dont think minaya would have bit. You say we only got back burgos, but i would rather have him then howry or eyre, no offense to either of those guys. They are good relievers, but they arent , in all likelyhood, going to get better. I understand Burgos was awful last year, but Minaya likes buying these guys when their cheap and, this guy Burgos has a ton of talent, and a high ceiling. Bannister wasnt in the mets plans for the future, so even though this kid burgos might turn out to be a dud, it still isnt much of a loss. I think his thinking was he would rather go for a piece for the future who ccould potentially be huge with good coaching.

[allabouthephils]

"the cubs are like a deperate guy out at a bar at 3:00 am. they'll overpay for any player, no matter how bad they are. i am a cubs fan, but in my opinion, things have really hit rock bottom here."

This is a sensable BASEBALL fan... I actually love Cubs fans because of their dedication and resiliency... But, logicially speaking, the Cubs are no contenders yet. I can name a ton of teams with a decent right handed lineup and a mediocre rotation... ( The Phils scored the most runs in the NL last year and missed the playoffs with a better rotation than the Cubs have now).

Hamels
Lieber
Moyer
Myers
Wolf/Lidle

[henry14theking]

Fair enough nrmax. I was simply using it as an example to provide the Cubs a 5th starter. I wouldn't count on Miller/Prior if I had any other option. Sad really since Prior was/is a tremendous talent.

[kevybo1]

If hed had 2 starts taken away he would have a 5 ERA. That's justlike saying if all his starts were taken away he would have a 0 ERA he is not a good pitcher.

[bravesrule14]

oh my sweet baby jesus
a cubs fan saying they dont have a shot at the World Series, this is incredible, although i cant blame u. the cubs have made ridiculous signings. Lilly was actually there best signing and they could have easily avoided the Ramirez thing with an esxtension sometime in the first half when he was stinkin it up. the other signings were ridiculous, maybe except DeRosa, but he still largly overpaid

[nrmax88]

Henry yeah i know what you mean. I actually think the money spent by the cubs would have been much better if they had done what you said. Why dont u interview to be their GM, you can certainly do better then hendry. Allaboutthephils, agreed. would take burrells contract for 2 years over soriano for 8 anyday. If they play the same amount of games their production should be similar. Im hoping burrell gets dealt tho, because no matter who gets brought in in exchange for pat, he wont murder the Mets like Burrell did.

[nrmax88]

When i say their production should be similar. I simply mean their power numbers and thats it. Should have clarified that

[Aduncaroo]

The Cubs ARE contenders, at least in their division. The Phillies have no shot in theirs because of the Mets, be honest with yourselves. The Phillies actually won more games than the Cardinals, who we all know went on to win it all. So, I don't see how you couldn't call the Cubs contenders because they will have a very good chance to make the playoffs, and it's anybody's ball game from there.

I know that they don't have the greatest pitching, but look at the Cardinals. Can you honestly tell me that last year you would have said their pitching staff was much above average?? No, I dont think you would have. Not with Weaver's season and a rookie as the 5th starter. People underestimate Rich Hill and what he can do. I think that he will put up ligitimate number 2 numbers, and then you have Lilly putting up good number 3 numbers, Marquis doing who knows what....and Miller/Prior with a chance to put up number 3 numbers as well. Zambrano will probably win the Cy Young, considering he is going into a contract year. The last thing any other team needs is to face Zambrano with motivation.

[tinathemetsgrl]

20-28 million for Jason Marquis? Wow. He was left off the Cardinals World Series roster! Wow! Cubs sure do love to spend money.

[henry14theking]

Aduncaroo... no one is arguing that Hill isn't a good pitcher. What I'm saying is that the money could've been better spent.

[sudansensation]

well, the cubs pitching staff just got a lot better... at hitting that is. We now have last years silver slugger in Zambrano and the year before's silver slugger Marquis

[Aduncaroo]

I agree, I hate this Marquis signing. I would think that you could get Suppan for not much more and solidify the rotation. That being said, the Central is weak when you are talking about the Brewers having a shot. I dont know what Walt Jocketty is going to do, but it better be something because while no one talks about it, right now the Cardinals pitching staff is looking rough.
I'm just saying that the Cubs are contenders to make the playoffs. The phillies are a good team, but thats a tough division to try and win. If they could get the Wild Card, who knows, but they have to have someone who can protect Howard so someone will pitch to the man.

[OtisCleetus]

allabouthephils = annoying retard. very annoying to read his posts.

[RbCubsFan4Life]

This signing isnt that bad. He'll be an ok starter, watch. He'll post a 4.25/1.45/4.0 k per 9. He'll also grab 12 wins. The only problem I have is the amount of money we gave him. Ridiculous.

[mmontice]

correct, the cubs may be contenders in the patty cake division that is the NL Central. the problem i have is with what they've done to be contenders just feels so wrong. if things don't work out in the next year or two, its going to get really ugly.

[kevybo1]

I would not have mind if the Cubs signed Jeff Suppan instead of Jason Marquis but like i said and will be saying countless times again and again the Cubs should have gone after MIGUEL BATISTA.

[nrmax88]

Cubsfan4life, What makes u think that he will post a 4.25 era in a hitters park with a shitty pitching coach when he just posted an era above 6 with the best pitching coach in the business? Otiscleetus why is allaboutthephils annoying, cuz he is realistic in saying the cubs arent very good? Its the truth. If u think his posts are so annoying, then dont read them, nobody is forcing you. Every person who says anything negative about the cubs automatically becomes a retard. I have been called a retard about 30 times this week because i dont think the cubs are good. I guess i just have to live with it lol

[nrmax88]

sundansensation, such a good point lol. This money would be better spent on Marquis if he was signed to be the CF lol

[baseballfan06]

For all of you cubs doubters, lets compare what this team looked like in 2006 to how it will look in 2007

Starting Pitching:
2006: Zambrano, well thats it, no one else was consistent for even half a season
2007:
Zambrano (ACE ACE ACE)
Hill (who came on GREAT the last 2 months of the season)
Lilly (good #3)
Marquis (Mechanics are fixed according to reports)
Prior (YOUR NUMBER 5 IS PRIOR?!?..thats huge if hes healthy)

Lineup:
2006: Well, is was crap. Murton and Barrett were good.
2007: Basically added 3 of the best 7 or 8 hitters in the game. (Aram, Soriano, healthy D-Lee) Added a solid 2B and no more Ronny. This offense is great again !

Bullpen:
Solid last year, addition of Wood and Miller will make it even better.

Bench:
Vastly improved with Ward's power bat. No more Mabry, Nevin, or Bynum.

This team is loads better then last year, an argument saying that they arent really has no basis. This team is fit to compete next year, and compete they will!!

[beeniez]

So anyone want to take bets on how many homeruns Marquis will give up? I'll go out on a limb and say 40+. 60+ if he stays healthy.

[beauhoopman]

the Phillies saved this season by not trading Pat Burrell for the hell of it. I know its a big contract, but hes not bad, and you werent going to get fair value in return. The NL East is going to be fun to watch this year. I'm rooting for Freddy Garcia and the Phils.

[allabouthephils]

Im tired of having this arguement with all the Cubs diehards... You guys have the 98 Yanks sure why not... Im Bill Gates too..

Any arguement that makes complete logical sense is completely ignored by all Cubs fans because they think a .500 pitcher and a guy who hits homeruns and strikes out all the time is going to solve that... GOOD LUCK and we will see next season...

Believe me, I will be on this site posting like a mad man when the Cubs are 60 and 65 by next August and are 5 to 10 games out of the running for the division...

"Basically added 3 of the best 7 or 8 hitters in the game"
To say that Soriano, Lee and Ramirez are three of the best 7 or 8 hitters in baseball is ridiculous.. Here are a few that are better than any one of those hitters...
Ive done this like a hundred times before but lets do it again...

Guerrero
Beltran
Howard
Pujols
Wells
Ortiz
Ramirez
Reyes
Wright
Cabrera
etc...etc...etc..

[greenbaydude1232]

"Lineup:
2006: Well, is was crap. Murton and Barrett were good.
2007: Basically added 3 of the best 7 or 8 hitters in the game. (Aram, Soriano, healthy D-Lee) Added a solid 2B and no more Ronny. This offense is great again !"

Last time I checked Ramirez was on the roster last year...dumbass..he sucked the 1st two months and then came on wicked hot. Lee and Soriano are 2 of the top 10 hitters in the game when they are healthy, Ramirez is one of the top 3B but not one of the top overall hitters, altho he is a stud.

[ptk420biatch]

Its pretty tough of you to add wright and reeyes since they have 1 good year. I think berkman and hafner deserve to be on the list before wright and reyes Allabouthephils.

[ptk420biatch]

I am a cubs fan greenbay, but I wont put soriano or lee as a top 10 hitter in baseball. But they are both great hitters.

[baseballfan06]

Last time I checked Ramirez was on the roster last year...dumbass..he sucked the 1st two months and then came on wicked hot.

Last time i checked, he was a free agent too, dumbass. So they had to add him this offseason. Plus, if you really follow the Cubs, you would know that Rameriz needs D-Lee in the lineup for him to be successful.

"Any arguement that makes complete logical sense is completely ignored by all Cubs fans because they think a .500 pitcher and a guy who hits homeruns and strikes out all the time is going to solve that"

hahahaha this is logical. Yep, soriano could never help a team win. Oh, and ill take a .500 pitcher over the young "studs" we had last year who were losing twice as much as they were winning.

Nice arguments though boys, keep em coming. I love hearing that the Cubs havents improved from last year and that the signings theyve made couldnt help them win, its just great.

[greenbaydude1232]

No one thinks the cubs haven't improved from last year. Everyone knows that they have. With that being said, they have made some pretty stupid moves: Namely this move. I just can't get over this move. I hope he improves but with Rothschild, I don't see it being likely. He should have been the 1st person from Dustys staff too go. Not the only one to stay.

[ptk420biatch]

Ramirez doesnt need lee in the lineup to be successful, he was last year without him. However the cubs need lee in the lineup to be successful, as proved last year.

[allabouthephils]

I've been sucked in again... Another pointless argument from Cubs diehards... Ok lets do it again...I didn't say Soriano and Lilly won't help. I didn't say that it won't help.... I said it won't get them to the postseason this year. YOU ARE NOT GOING TO WIN YOUR DIVISION THIS YEAR... plain and simple..... YOU ARENT GOING TO THE PLAYOFFS... you will probably finish .500... That's it... It's a huge improvement. But, you aren't going to the playoffs...

I keep hearing comparisons to the 91 Braves... The 91 Braves had a core of young pitchers that were ready to break out and dominate for the next decade... The Cubs have Zambrano who is sexy... Rich Hill who is solid... Lilly who is .500... Marquis who is dying to lead the league in homers allowed... and a mix of injuries waiting to happen... That isn't exactly young Smoltz, Glavine, and Maddux.

[pinetarhand]

I think this is the worst signing of the offseason. Between Prior, Miller, Marshal, Guzman, & Marmol, the Cubs could have found a way to get better production than Marquis. Hell, O'Malley can do better. He'll only block any possible pitching prospect from breaking into the majors for the Cubs for the next 3 years. I don't see how this makes the Cubs any better whatsoever. He's a better pinch-bunter than an actual pitcher.

[ptk420biatch]

Its tough to just claim the cubs have no shot at winning the NL central. Who in there right mind would have picked the tigers to do what they did this year? Baseball is full of surprises.

[allabouthephils]

Have you looked at the Tigers pitching staff?

Did you look at the 91 Braves pitching staff?

Now look at the Cubs pitching staff.

[beeniez]

Guerrero
Beltran
Howard
Pujols
Wells
Ortiz
Ramirez
Reyes
Wright
Cabrera
... best hitters in baseball?

Where's Bonds, Berkman, Ichiro, A-Rod, and Tejada fit in?

[allabouthephils]

The difference is that they had YOUNG sexy solid amazingly high potential pitching going into the season...

The Cubs don't have that... They have a dominate ace, 2 overpriced veterans, a young high talent, and alot of injuries waiting to happen.

[allabouthephils]

"Guerrero
Beltran
Howard
Pujols
Wells
Ortiz
Ramirez
Reyes
Wright
Cabrera
... best hitters in baseball?

Where's Bonds, Berkman, Ichiro, A-Rod, and Tejada fit in?"

this was a list that was thrown together in 10 seconds... Sorry if I offended anyone... I have done that list a hundred times know and should have it memorized...

[plh903]

ADUNCAROO?

Let me guess, do the letters WCA mean anything to you?

[pinetarhand]

How about the 1991 Minnesota Twins?

[ptk420biatch]

And you thought the tigers pitching staff would do that good?

[pinetarhand]

They went from last to first, and remember that was when there was only 2 divisions in each league, which made it harder to go from worst to first.

[nrmax88]

"Its pretty tough of you to add wright and reeyes since they have 1 good year"

Wright has actually had 2 and a half good seasons, since he has been in the league 2 and a half seasons. Reyes struggles in years past, but was still very effective, despite his low OBP, if u watched any met games, you would know that he can have an OBP of 300 and still score 100 runs(done it before), and if you watched any baseball this season, you would know reyes is ready to explode in 07. Look at his final numbers for 06. Now think about the fact he basically did nothing in april and may. Go look at Jose's numbers the rest of the season after May. He didnt miss a beat. Say what you want about Reyes and Wright, but there isnt a left side of the IF in baseball I would rather have then those 2. Just like there isnt a right side of the IF I wouldnt rather have then the phillies. If you are implying you would rather have Ramirez then David Wright, then have fun with him, and his lazy ass Ptk.

[pinetarhand]

Oh yeah, & they beat that young, sexy rotation of the Braves. All it took was Kent Hrbeck pulling Ron Gant off 1st base. NE1 else remember that?

[bobo]

Wouldn't you rather have Schmidt + some combination Miller/Prior/Guzman/etc. than Lilly and Marquis?

With a commitment a year shorter (at least compared to Lilly) as well?

These salaries just don't add up. Looks like "stars and scrubs" is the way to go, because the guys getting signed for $4-8M per season are hardly better than the scrubs.

Oakland seems to be one of the only teams that has any concept of asset allocation.

[nrmax88]

Billy Beane is a cocky bastard, but he sure as hell knows how to build a winning baseball team without spending much money. Maybe some of the other GMs should read his book

[henry14theking]

Or the Marlins...

[nrmax88]

True the marlins have a nice little system going, but every few years theyre usually awful before they get good. Oakland is a contender every single year, seesm like it doesnt even matter who is on the field. They always have nice young pitching staff, and are in the race all the way to the end.

[nrmax88]

I was thinking about the whole Zito situation. If it is true that Texas and NY are the only 2 serious players for him, then why dont the MEts offer him what they think if fair, and tell him you have 2 days to decide, take it or leave it. If he says no, then he loses money either way, because with NY out of the running, Texas' offer will shrink (atleast you think it would, but with hicks, who even knows). If he really cares about winning, and not the money then he should accept it. Otherwise he will have to be miserable in Texas for 7 years.

[beeniez]

nrmax88, you'd take Reyes and Wright over A-Rod and Jeter?

And is Billy Beane his REAL name? Sounds more like a drink or a cowboy than a baseball GM.

[henry14theking]

As a GM, I'd take Reyes + Wright over ARod + Jeter.

Smaller contracts, younger, more trade value.

If you're saying: 24 yr old Wright + Reyes vs. 24 yr old Jeter + ARod then Jeter and ARod win by miles.

Right now: I'd take Wright + Reyes.

[henry14theking]

And I'm a Yankees fan.

[beeniez]

Well you can't talk about contracts unless we're talking as a whole team. Depends on what the rest of my team looks like if I want those contracts or not. Jeter and A-Rod are paid more because they're better players with more experience.

I think you'll get a lot more trade value out of MVP winners, World Series winners, and gold glove winners than you would an MVP candidate and a silver slugger. With the current market, their contracts aren't that bad.

If you're implying that Jeter and A-Rod are old and injury prone, which both are in their early 30s (which isn't over the hill) and Reyes has been on the DL more recently than either of them, then you're wrong.

[Gleebo]

Fellow Cubs fans...please don't try to rationalize this. Its a horrible signing. I would rather have Marshall or Mateo for 30 starts than Marquis and use what we saved on a Zambrano extension...or some new grass seed. The worst thing grass can do to the Cubs is stain their pants...where as watching Marquis pitch every 5th day will cause the rest of the team to crap them.

[jballgame]

Time to weigh in:

1) I don't like this signing. The $ was way to high-especially b/c Hendry was competing against himself (or so it appears).

2) You guys act like being a GM is like going on line, putting a few things in your cart, and checking out. IT'S NOT THAT EASY! Zito didn't want to come to the Midwest/Chicago, and I'm pretty sure Schmidt didn't either-regardless of money. Had Hendry thrown $50MM at Schmidt for 3 yrs or $100MM at Zito for 6, you'd have criticized that too. Who says they could sign Gagne, and why would they with 3 potential closers in Wood, Dempster and Howry?

3) I DO like what Hendry is doing (again-don't like price of Marquis). In a market that STARVING for starting pitching, we have Zambrano, Hill and Lilly locked into our 1-3. We have Mateo, Guzman, Marmol, Marshall, Prior, Miller, and Marquis competing for 2 spots. That's 7 guys competing for 2 spots. Not a bad problem to have.

4) All about the phils-you need to pull your head out of your team's butt crack-

Hamels 12-7, 3.91

Myers

Moyer

Lieber

Lidle

Wolf

[jballgame]

Time to weigh in:

1) I don't like this signing. The $ was way to high-especially b/c Hendry was competing against himself (or so it appears).

2) You guys act like being a GM is like going on line, putting a few things in your cart, and checking out. IT'S NOT THAT EASY! Zito didn't want to come to the Midwest/Chicago, and I'm pretty sure Schmidt didn't either-regardless of money. Had Hendry thrown $50MM at Schmidt for 3 yrs or $100MM at Zito for 6, you'd have criticized that too. Who says they could sign Gagne, and why would they with 3 potential closers in Wood, Dempster and Howry?

3) I DO like what Hendry is doing (again-don't like price of Marquis). In a market that STARVING for starting pitching, we have Zambrano, Hill and Lilly locked into our 1-3. We have Mateo, Guzman, Marmol, Marshall, Prior, Miller, and Marquis competing for 2 spots. That's 7 guys competing for 2 spots. Not a bad problem to have.

4) All about the phils-you need to pull your head out of your team's butt crack-

Hamels 12-7, 3.91

Myers

Moyer

Lieber

Lidle 8-7, 4.74

Wolf 4-0, 5.56

[jballgame]

Time to weigh in:

1) I don't like this signing. The $ was way to high-especially b/c Hendry was competing against himself (or so it appears).

2) You guys act like being a GM is like going on line, putting a few things in your cart, and checking out. IT'S NOT THAT EASY! Zito didn't want to come to the Midwest/Chicago, and I'm pretty sure Schmidt didn't either-regardless of money. Had Hendry thrown $50MM at Schmidt for 3 yrs or $100MM at Zito for 6, you'd have criticized that too. Who says they could sign Gagne, and why would they with 3 potential closers in Wood, Dempster and Howry?

3) I DO like what Hendry is doing (again-don't like price of Marquis). In a market that STARVING for starting pitching, we have Zambrano, Hill and Lilly locked into our 1-3. We have Mateo, Guzman, Marmol, Marshall, Prior, Miller, and Marquis competing for 2 spots. That's 7 guys competing for 2 spots. Not a bad problem to have.

4) I wouldn't call the NL Central a "pattycake" division-the Cubs, Brewers, Cards and Astros all beat up on one another last year. That's how the Central works-its deep....the Reds showed they could beat some people too.

5) All about the phils-you need to pull your head out of your team's butt crack-

Hamels 9-8, 4.08

Myers 12-7, 3.91

Moyer 5-2, 4.03

Lieber 9-11, 4.93

Lidle 8-7, 4.74

Wolf 4-0, 5.56

47-35, 4+ ERA. Good W/L, but your ERA is terrible. I wouldn't call this a great staff. Don't talk about Garcia, his ERA was 4.53 last year.....

[stormstarter28]

Having 7 guys compete for 2 slots wouldn't be bad...if they didn't all suck.

[nrmax88]

"nrmax88, you'd take Reyes and Wright over A-Rod and Jeter?"

In a heartbeat, without even thinking about it. Nothing against Jeter and A Rod, but seriously, wouldnt even think about it.

[nrmax88]

And not because of their contracts. Age has a lot to do with is. Wright and Reyes are putting up allstar numbers already, and are both still 4 or 5 years away from their prime. I realize Jeter and A rod did this also, but I stand by my decision. Reyes is the most exciting player in baseball, bar none, nobody in all of baseball can do what he can do. Wright is just a great player all around, and is so poised for a 23 year old its ridiculous. Watching him play everyday it seems like he is a 10 year vet. He also isnt the distraction that rodriguez is, and doesnt make excuses and blame his teamates and others when things arent going good. Again, i want to stress this. NOTHING AT ALL AGAINST JETER AND A ROD. Espacially Jeter, he represents all that is good about baseball. He is one of my favorite players ever, on the team i hate more then any franchise ever. Jeter is a true all star and a class act, still doesnt change my mind though

[greenbaydude1232]

There are few people that I would rather start a franchise around then Wright or Reyes. I think the 1 player I would rather start a franchise around besides those 2 would be Johan Santana. After Santan Wright, Reyes, and Cabrera are right there.

[greenbaydude1232]

If I was building a Franchise right now there are four guys I would consider to build it around if I couldn't build it around Pujols:

Reyes, Santana, Wright, and Cabrera in no particular order. It is a tough decision between those 4 guys other than

[greenbaydude1232]

haha forgot about pujols when i posted the 1st comment

[miltie]

"Wouldn't you rather have Schmidt + some combination Miller/Prior/Guzman/etc. than Lilly and Marquis?"

Schmidt is going down hill. I'm not sure I understand why everyone is sweating this signing. His velocity has been going down and he had only two good months last year. That's why his era is sub-4. He was average or below average the rest of the year. He's a 33 year old pitcher making 15 mill a year for the next 3 years. There's no upisde with the guy. With his velocity going down. He's going to get worse. It's only a matter of how much worse.

The Marquis signing was pretty expensive. But not as overly expensive as people are making it out to be in my opinion. He's probably getting paid 6 to 6.5 mil. a year. Still a lot though. But I'd take a 200 inning pitcher in Marquis who has posted a low 4 and mid 3 era before over an injury prone below average Gil Meche for 11 million a year for 5 years. A signing is only bad relative to the other options the team has at that moment. I'm not sure what they could have done via free agency to acquire another pitcher.

"Miller/Prior"

I'm a Cubs fan but lets stop it please with these two. Let's just write them off and not count on them at all. The line-up so far looks like this:

Zambrano
Hill
Lilly
Marquis
Mateo/Marshall

That's assuming the Cubs stop here and don't acquire another pitcher via trade.

And I'm not going to sit here and crown the Cubs the Central division champs but anybody who claims they don't have a chance in this division really needs to think twice. The team has definitely improved over last season. The line-up is bolstered by Derrick Lee, Alfonso Soriano and DeRosa. Those three will improve last year's anemic offense immensely.

Believe it or not the pitching staff has improved with the addition of Lilly and Marquis. Outside of Zambrano we had a bunch of jerry's Kids out there. The staff as it stands right now is average at best. But I can't say that any rotation in the Central is really head and shoulders above the rest.

Like I said, I'm not crowning them, but they have just as good of a shot as the other teams right now.

[greenbaydude1232]

I am still holding out hope that the cubs will acquire someone via trade. JJ and Prospects for a SP sounds pretty good to me. We can get lofton for a year until pie is ready and the team will look good.

The Rotation would look something like:

1. Zambrano
2. Trade
3. Lilly
4. Hill
5. Marquis/Marshall/Prior/Miller/Mateo

I think that is really solid as long as we get a good pitcher via trade.

Marquis can only be counted on as much as prior or willer can be counted on and Prior has a ton more upside so I don't understand this acuisition.

[miltie]

"Marquis can only be counted on as much as prior or willer "

You're kidding right? Marquis is good for 200 innings. Prior is good for 200 towel throws. I'll take a 5 something era and 200 innings over the shit Prior has given us the last two years. I'm tired of his West Coast pansy ways. The silver spooner has gotta go!

[allabouthephils]

Hamels 9-8, 4.08

Myers 12-7, 3.91

Moyer 5-2, 4.03

Lieber 9-11, 4.93

Lidle 8-7, 4.74

Wolf 4-0, 5.56

These guys would have been numbers 2,3,4, and 5 in your rotation last year...

This year...

Id still take the Phils rotation over the Cubs...

Lets see

Garcia
Hamels
Myers
Moyer
Eaton

Uh yeah.....I think that the Cubs would take this over the overpriced garbage they have now... Say what you want about Adam Eaton... he is our number 5... not our 2 or 4...like Mr. I am one good injury away from a free paycheck of 40MM Lillypad and Mr. I like to give up the longball Marquis.....

[greenbaydude1232]

Maybe the cubs signed him as a pinch hitter...any idea if the guy can play CF?

[allabouthephils]

They should get Marquis to teach Soriano how to hit the slider six inches off the outside corner... :) ok that was a low blow.... but still a little funny.

[miltie]

Garcia posted a 4.5 era last year and was about to get run out of town before throwing two gems at the end of the season.

"Say what you want about Adam Eaton... he is our number 5"

"like Mr. I am one good injury away from a free paycheck of 40MM Lillypad "

Uh. Yeah. Amazing how you could make both of these statements in the same breadth. Lilly has started 30 games in three of the last 4 years as a SP. That's more 30 start seasons than Eaton's had his entire career.

I'm not saying I'd necessarilly take the Cubs rotation over Philly's. But Philly's rotation is full of question marks and one I wouldn't feel very confortable with. And I know Moyer starts 30 games every season but he IS 44 years old.

[allabouthephils]

hmmmmm ...... have you looked at Ted Lilly's injury history ??? It is truely astonishing... They posted it on here a month or so ago and the list looks as long as Rosie O' Donnells' shopping list...
But, the Phils have wayyyy more certainty heading into this season than the reigning NL Cellar Dwellars.... The Phils will be making a run at their division and the wild card... The Cubs are aiming at mediocrity.

[allabouthephils]

Im meant....."should" be aiming at mediocrity...

I know the public relations people out in Chicago will tell you that you guys have a shot this year to sell season ticket packages. The realistic goal for this season for the Cubs SHOULD be .500...

[bobo]

In this market, you can only look at deals by comparison.

Yes, I believe 100% that if you offered Schmidt $56M over 3 years (the price of Lilly + Marquis) he would be a Cub. Yes, we'd criticize that signing, but not if Hendry got up and said "Well, for some reason we thought was a good idea to give Jason Marquis $8M a year, and this was the alternative."

I'm not saying being a GM is easy. Just that it's easy to make better decisions than this one.

And finally, I'm only talking about Schmidt because he was the best free agent starter available. Yes, he's declining. But I still believe that Schmidt + virtually anyone is better than Lilly and Marquis.

[miltie]

"I know the public relations people out in Chicago will tell you that you guys have a shot this year to sell season ticket packages."

What PR guys are you referring to? I love it how guys who have never set foot in Chicago talk about it as if every local sports guy is now starting to write the lyrics for the Cubs' equivalent of the super-bowl shuffle because of the signings of late. Talk about clueless. I guess it really is a law of nature that every Phillies fan must be an asshole.

Have the trade talks with Cleveland re: Westbrook completely dried up? Has anyone heard anything about this lately?

[DirtyFreddy]

Okay, that's it... Maybe I haven't pitched competitively since 8th grade, but if Marquis can get 21 million over 3 years, I should at least be able to cash in a 1 year 3 million dollar signing.

[striker]

I hate the Cubs. They have dedicated fans and money but their front office is dumb as s@!$. They have to plan what so ever and fool their fans into thinking they want to compete by spending money. Stupid Stupid Stupid. Cubs suck and will always suck. And their fans will never learn.

[beauhoopman]

I'm confused about what starter Cubs fans think the team will add via trade. This Jacque Jones stuff has to stop, he has little to no value. I don't understand why they wouldn't go after Suppan or some variation, rather than try to get John Leiber or god knows who else via trade.

[hood]

Everyone is killing what the Royals are doing. I actually like the moves they made. My only problem is they need to get rid of Buddy Bell as manager. Get somebody in there that can relate to the kids. Florida proved that a youth movement can be fun for the fans. Ok they overpaid for Meche but they had too, to get him. His numbers were not that of a number 1 SP but the Royals are hoping by the time the 3rd year of the contract kicks in he will be a number 3. They have some arms in their system. Just get rid of the manager and coaching staff. DeJesus, Greinke, Teahan, Buck, Butler, Shealy, Gorden & a healthy Sweeney. Thats alotta talent not to mention their 1st round pick last year. They have a bright future.

[PeteRose]

"I guess it really is a law of nature that every Phillies fan must be an asshole."

Maybe, an eerie coincidence, but, by no means a law of nature.
The Philadelphian is a complex and delicate member of the plant kingdom, that responds kindly to food, water, warmth and the loving embrace of a tall, lanky, fearless southpaw w/ a four pitch repertoire.
Believe or not, it does not take much to soothe this proverbial beast.
Have you hugged a Philadelphian today?

[pinetarhand]

Zambrano is better than Myers
Hamels & Hill are about even
Garcia is a little better than Lilly
Moyer is a little better than Marquis & he's 44 frickin years old!
Any combination of Miller/Prior/Marmol is better than Eaton.

Overall, the 2 staffs look pretty even, but the Cubs staff has more upside

[PeteRose]

"

Zambrano is better than Myers
Hamels & Hill are about even
Garcia is a little better than Lilly
Moyer is a little better than Marquis & he's 44 frickin years old!
Any combination of Miller/Prior/Marmol is better than Eaton.

Overall, the 2 staffs look pretty even, but the Cubs staff has more upside
"
You're right, Every team has a shot at the beginning of the season.

[quintjs]

When General Managers sign contracts, do they need a parents signature?

Should proabably look into that.

[hood]

Garcia A LITTLE BETTER than Lilly........... Are you serious and Moyer a little better than Marquis are you smokin crack they are both 20 times better than them 2 bums. And you are forgetting the fact they still have Lieber to get something for. And Phillie's bullpen is way better than the Cubs'.

[nickjs21]

"but the Cubs staff has more upside"

Have to disagree there. I don't think anyone has more upside than Hamels.

[pinetarhand]

Yes, Garcia a little better than Lilly. Lilly doesn't stay healthy all year. Garcia does. That's the only place where Garcia is better. He'll get you 30 more innings per year.

Yes, Moyer is a little better than Marquis. He's 44! He's in steady decline & now he's moved to a hitter's park from a pitcher's park so guess what happens from here. I hate the Marquis signing, but I don't think Moyer is a much better pitcher. I'd take Moyer over Marquis, but let's face it, he's not a huge step forward from Marquis either.

You just said Leiber's leaving? So why should I count him again? Is he going to bring back a top notch pitcher in return?

How long do you think Flash Gordon's going to be able to hold out? After him, there's Geary & that's it. The Cubs have Howry, Eyre, Cotts, & Wuertz. Wood is moving to the bullpen & should take Dumpster's spot as the closer.

[jballgame]

allaboutthephils-your name says it all and clearly you are biased. I never said the Cubs rotation was better than the Phils', however, yours is clearly not as lights out as you think with an average ERA of 4.5 or so.

[pinetarhand]

Did you see Rich Hill pitch last year? Did you see any of his last 7 starts? He had 1 "bad" start in that span where he gave up 4 runs, but he still had 10 K's in that game. There's a whole lot of upside in that kid. Maybe not as much as Hamels, but he still has ace stuff.

All the same, I was referring to upside in the back end of the rotation with Prior/Miller/Marshall compared to Moyer & Eaton.

[rawr]

As a Cardinal fan, this couldn't make me any happier. Marquis is awful, absolutely awful. The guy couldn't succeed under Mazzone or Duncan, Rothschild won't fix it.

[bobo]

I like Rich Hill a lot, but you can't find one GM who would take him over Hamels.

[allabouthephils]

This is just a dumb conversation... Im not talking to idiots who have no clue about baseball... pinetarhand if you think the Cubs staff has anything except Zambrano and a few good starts late in the season by Hill you are an idiot...
Hill had a few good starts last season... Thats it...

The Phils staff is now one of the best in the national league... Period...Trying to compare the two is just reaching... a far reach at that...

Hamels is one of the brighest young budding left handed starters in baseball... Myers is a stud in the making... Garcia and Moyer are proven vets and Eaton is injury prone...

Fact of the matter is that if you combined the staffs... it would look like this...

Zambrano
Hamels
Myers
Garcia
Moyer

Rich hill as the long reliever in the bullpen....

[allabouthephils]

"Garcia A LITTLE BETTER than Lilly........... Are you serious and Moyer a little better than Marquis are you smokin crack they are both 20 times better than them 2 bums. And you are forgetting the fact they still have Lieber to get something for. And Phillie's bullpen is way better than the Cubs'."

Hood you make all the sense in the world...

Fact of the matter is that in Wrigley town, you're either a Cubs lover no matter how horrible they are in real life... Or the enemy no matter how much better you are than the Cubs....

[pinetarhand]

I guess we'll just have to disagree phils. After Hamel's potential & Myer's solid #2 numbers, I really just don't see anything special. The Dodgers, Mets, & Pads definitely have better rotations than the Phils. Philadelphia startes had a 5.08 ERA last year & I don't see where adding Garcia's 4.53 ERA is going to help it all that much. The Cubs starters had a 5.19 ERA & they were terrible. I think they can both improve upon next year, but I don't see your basis for thinking the Phil's staff will be one of the best in the NL next year.

[allabouthephils]

"Yes, Garcia a little better than Lilly. Lilly doesn't stay healthy all year. Garcia does. That's the only place where Garcia is better. He'll get you 30 more innings per year.

Yes, Moyer is a little better than Marquis. He's 44! He's in steady decline & now he's moved to a hitter's park from a pitcher's park so guess what happens from here. I hate the Marquis signing, but I don't think Moyer is a much better pitcher. I'd take Moyer over Marquis, but let's face it, he's not a huge step forward from Marquis either.

You just said Leiber's leaving? So why should I count him again? Is he going to bring back a top notch pitcher in return?

How long do you think Flash Gordon's going to be able to hold out? After him, there's Geary & that's it. The Cubs have Howry, Eyre, Cotts, & Wuertz. Wood is moving to the bullpen & should take Dumpster's spot as the closer. "

Ted Lilly career stats
59-58 4.60 936 Innings over 8 seasons=117 innings a season
Garcia career stats
116-71 4.01 1643.2 Innings over 8 seasons=205.4 innings a season.....

Moyer is still a decent pitcher and would be your number 2 starter easily... Gordon would be your closer easily... The Phils are already in talks with several teams about moving Lieber for names like Turnbow of Milwaukee and Benoit of Texas... Im not worried because Gillick is addressing all the Phillies needs.... Don't post anymore pinetarhand...learn a little about baseball... Get off Hendry's nuts and realize that the Cubs have improved enough to be .500...

[pinetarhand]

When your teams starters climbe out of being 25th in MLB, then you can talk about how much better your rotation is than the Cubs. Until then, everything you say is just optimistic speculation the same as any Cubs fan. Your more like us than you even know.

[allabouthephils]

Not even close.... Cubs fans havent smelled mediocrity in years... The Cubs organization is one of the worst in baseball and the moves this offseason only justify that... So does last years record might I add... The Phils record was 4th in the National League last year ( im pretty sure)... That's nothing to sneeze at... They came in second in the wildcard... We didnt throw money around trying to fix our problems... He just build steadily on what we have... What you have after that is a contender... The Cubs have a pipedream and an inflated payroll.

[allabouthephils]

85-77 was the 4th best record in the NL last year...12th best in all of baseball..

66-96 was the 16 best record in the national league and 3rd worst in all of baseball...

[pinetarhand]

Turnbow? You're hoping for Turnbow? Did you see what happened to him last year? He completely imploded!!!

I don't like Hendry. Where the hell have I said he's the savior of the Cubs? Where have I said the Cubs are going to the World Series? I don't lump you together with every Phillies fan out there so don't do it to me either.

Gordon would be our closer. You're right, but we have more depth. Didn't I make that pretty clear?

Garcia is better than Lilly. Didn't I say that too? But his ERA was higher than Lilly's last year. He's a much better innings eater than Lilly, but that's where our bullpen depth comes in.

Saying Moyer is a better starter than Hill is just ignorant. I don't know how to reply to that. How about this, put those 2 on the trading block & see what they get in return. See who would want who more & that'll give you your answer real quick.

[pinetarhand]

If it was the 4th best record, wouldn't they have won the wild card berth dumbass!!!!

[pinetarhand]

Despite your 5th best record, your starting pitcher's ERA was 25th in baseball. So you hit the ball better than your opponents, because you sure as hell didn't pitch better than them with the 25th best ERA in the majors.

The Cubs have no young hitters to build around like Howard, Utley, & Rollins. So should a big market team just wait 10 years until that talent comes around? Be reasonable. Of course they went out and spent money on some players. What else do you do when you have over $50 mil worth of payroll space to work with?

[allabouthephils]

"If it was the 4th best record, wouldn't they have won the wild card berth dumbass!!!!"

The NL central was such a horrible division last year that the Phils would have won it with 85 wins... dumbass... check for yourself before you show your true intelligence.... http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/standings

Turnbow is an animal and is still only 28... He has one of the best arms in baseball... He had some control issues last year... I would take him in a heartbeat...

[gadamer]

Oh please, will the Phillies fans just wake up! I watched every single game Garcia pitched last year, and with the exception of four or five games down the stretch, he looked very mediocre -- and often in trouble. The guy is not the same pitcher as 2005, and will struggle in a new park with a new team -- he loved the White Sox and Chicago. The Phillies will not win the NL East because Hamels is Mark Prior on the Right Coast, Moyer can only work his magic for so long, and Garcia cannot lead that staff. I say they finish with a worse record in 2007. Besides, Philly fans suck, for every sport: you folks are worse than damn Detroit fans. Bunch of punks! LOL

[allabouthephils]

4thhhhhh best record.... 4th... not 5th.... 4thhhh

[pinetarhand]

"85-77 was the 4th best record in the NL last year..."

Now you can't cop out & say you can't argue with posts from yesterday. You just said this! You just said they had the 4th best record in the NL last year. When the hell did I say the Phils wouldn't have won the Central last year? My intelligence? You can't remember what you just posted 5 minutes ago 2 different times then you question my intelligence?

[pinetarhand]

NOoooooo they were 5th!!!! LOL

[beauhoopman]

There is no single person in baseball who would take Ted Lilly over Freddy Garcia, Rich Hill over Cole Hamels or Jason Marquis over Jamie Moyer. What the degree of seperation between them is remains irrelevant, and open to interpretation on all ends. Zambrano is the best pitcher on either team, after that, its all Phillies..

[gadamer]

Philly destroys every sports team in town eventually -- I mean, Iverson has to leave to get away from you fat heads. Look, the Chi Hawks are miserable, I admit it; and the Cubs are often just laughable. But we don't run around acting like freakin' thugs.

[allabouthephils]

Alright... the cubs are going to win the world series next year... They are set for a dynasty of mythical proportions...almost Yankeesque... Good luck... Im not going to sit here and pointlessly argue with people who have no clue about baseball or what it takes to win...

Next years results are going to be sweet... We will see who ends up on the better end of the stick... Till then it's pretty pointless to continue to argue around and around in an endless circle...

Go Cubs... Let Zambrano, Hill, Lilly, Marquis, and who ever the hell lead you to the promised land in the best rotation ever assembled..

[pinetarhand]

yeah, you're right phils. the Phillies are better than the Cubs. I just like arguing with you. It's funnier that way.

[allabouthephils]

"Now you can't cop out & say you can't argue with posts from yesterday. You just said this! You just said they had the 4th best record in the NL last year. When the hell did I say the Phils wouldn't have won the Central last year? My intelligence? You can't remember what you just posted 5 minutes ago 2 different times then you question my intelligence?"

I have no idea what this is....It's jibberish to me..

All I was doing was correcting you after you called me a dumbass and said that if this Phils had the 4th best record in the NL it meant they HAD to have won the wildcard...That is a false statement...They had the 4th best record because the Cards won the central with 83 wins...

[allabouthephils]

Im done have fun guys....

Nice arguing with you pinetarhand...

Same time tomorrow ???

Laugh'

[pinetarhand]

I know phils. I was fucking with you after the first post when I fucked up. Best of luck to your team, in the division they're in, they'll need it more than the Cubs.

[hood]

When you add in Garcia's ERA are you also realizing he is going to the NL. And Phjillie's defense is far superior to the Cubs that always helps a pitching staff. Other than Izzy, Lee and Barrett everyone else is average to below average and no CF yet. Everyone with the exception of Burrel is average to above average defensively. Wait til Soriano gets a hold of those winds in Wrigley that should be an adventure.

[nickjs21]

All other facts aside, to argue that the 4th best record automatically wins the wild card and then declare "dumbass" to your opponent as if you've triumphed is a crippling blow to your credibility.

[PeteRose]

"All other facts aside, to argue that the 4th best record automatically wins the wild card and then declare "dumbass" to your opponent as if you've triumphed is a crippling blow to your credibility."

A mere soldier, in what often seems like a whole army of blind, pubescent squirrels.

[jballgame]

allaboutthephils-you keep changing your argument. First, you say the Phils' rotation is better than the Cubs (which it probably is-but not by much). THEN, you say you have one of the best in the NL......PLEASE! A staff that has a starting ERA of 5.08 is not the best in the NL. Last year, the following teams had better SP than the Phils:

San Diego
Houston
Mets
Dodgers
Marlins
D-Backs
Brewers

Your rotation is not that good.

[shawnspookcity]

Cubs fan here.

WHAT THE F IS GOING ON?!?!!?

Luckily I've already come to terms that even at 28 years of age, I'll never live long enough to see a Cubs world series win.

Jason Marquis?!?! Soriano for 8.3billion?!?!?! Ted Lilly the #2?!?!? SORIANO LEADING OFF?!?!?!

This team better add a leadoff hitter (preferably a lefthanded bat) and another starting pitcher.

What sort of rotation is
Zambrano
Lilly
Hill
Marquis
Prior/Miller

We know what we'll get out of Zambrano. Hopefully Lilly will put up some decent numbers, but I'm not too optimistic. Hill is going to be a good pitcher, hopefully he can continue his development and pitch well out of the 3 hole.
Jason Marquis...ugh. that's a loss every 5 days. At least he only hurts the Cubs chances of winning and doesn't also contribute much to the wear and tear in the bullpen arms.
Prior/Miller...we'll be lucky to get 20 quality starts between these two.

I grew up on the south side of chicago. It's days like this that make me realize I made the wrong choice in teams.

[greenbaydude1232]

I found this article at hardball times which is very interesting about contract inflation and such. I'm not trying to justify contracts (especially not the worst signing of the offseason -- marquis) but still it is very interesting:

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/present-value/

check it out.

[allabouthephils]

"A staff that has a starting ERA of 5.08 is not the best in the NL. Last year, the following teams had better SP than the Phils:

San Diego
Houston
Mets
Dodgers
Marlins
D-Backs
Brewers

Your rotation is not that good."

JBallgame,

This is just a horrible post on so many different levels it's almost funny.
The Phils ERA was 5.08 last year, this is true... LAST YEAR...LAST YEAR those teams had better staffs than the Phillies sure... This year the only two that still have that distinction are...The Dodgers and the Marlins...Other than that it is up for debate... To even mention the Cubs in the same sentence as the Phillies is straight laughable... This season is going to be halarious on so many levels for me... Especially in comparison to the Cubs... How is a staff that has

Hamels
Garcia
Myers
Moyer
Eaton

Even in remote comparison to

Zambrano
Lilly
Hill
Marquis
Whoever the hell doesnt snap like a twig...

Like I said before... combine the staffs and it looks like this

Zambrano
Hamels
Garcia
Myers
Moyer...

Keep arguing but the truth is the truth no matter how you look at it... ( for those of you who debate cough' Hill over Moyer... Rich Hill has had 6 good starts his ENTIRE career... I'll take Jamie Moyers' 20 years of service over that any day... Hill would be a long reliever..)

[beeniez]

I still can't believe the Marlins' pitching staff did so well. Maybe THIS year will be their 100+ losses because virtuallly the whole team will be in a sophomore slump.

[allabouthephils]

Lofton to the Rangersss

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6258894

[allabouthephils]

Lofton to the Rangersss

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6258894

[allabouthephils]

Matt Stairs to the Blue Jays
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/baseball/story/2006/12/10/stairs-jays.html

[melyrules]

i met jason marqauis onse he smelled realy bad

[allabouthephils]

Are you high ???

You can't even spell "Melky" correctly... You spelled it Mely and it's your handle..that's pretty bad... You also can't spell "marquis" correctly or "once" correctly... You can't spell "really" correctly...

I wouldn't worry about Jason Marquis' personal hygiene... I would go back to 6th grade and crack open a book... Maybe get a job and stop posting on here from "mommies" computer...

[allabouthephils]

How does that sound " Mely"

[shawnspookcity]

I live in Philly and watch a lot of their games. If allaboutthephils thinks they'll do any better than last year, he's completely mistaken.

[cheek88]

don't worry about Marquis smell worry about his 6.02 ERA and letting up a ****load of homeruns in Wrigley

[Cynosure]

All I gotta say....

Marquis > Rusch

[thecubsdontcatchtheball]

Marquis > Mateo, Marshall, Marmol, Ryu too. At least this year.

[Tommy]

I Think that the Cubs made a pretty good move. If you look at it the cubs have spent loads of money. They are also trying to save up for Carlos Zambrano next year. I think the cubs have had the best offseason as well as the Dodgers. So i dont know what your talking about because your predictions have been WAY OFF!