Church As Part Of A Santana Deal?

Yikes... I'm not sure what I think about replacing Gomez with Church.

On one hand, it would be great to hold on to a young talent like Gomez, but he is FAR from being ready for an everyday MLB job.

Who takes over for Church in RF if he's dealt? Is Omar considering re-signing Green? I wouldn't be against that... the guy still handles RHP well. (.326 BA / .865 OPS last year)

Church could play center for the Twins if they wanted to put Cuddyer in the corner, and he'd do well, but I have to say that I think the Twins would be silly to go for this deal.

The package doesn't include enough pitching.

It would also be sad for Church who is primed to do good things in NY if given a regular starting job. He'd be lost in Minnesota.

Cuddyer is definitely NOT a CF. he's a RF for sure. either church or delmon young would have to play center.

but i do agree that this deal needs more another pitching prospect, so the twins can move a couple of their own for a major league pitcher.

Who do the Mets get to take over for Church? Gomez may not be ready. Maybe sign Mench? Nixon? Green and Gonzo are still out there and of course, Bonds.

A Mench/Green platoon would be awesome.

Mench has a career .924 OPS against lefties, Greene with an .885 against righties.

Even if you just take last year into account, it's still good. (.901 for Mench and .865 for Green)

I'd rather use Easley against Lefties and save the money on Mench. Not sure who would take on the righties. I wouldn't necessairily be opposed to bringing Green back as long as it's in a platoon. Plus, he KILLS John Smoltz which always makes me happy. I wonder if Xavier Nady is still available, I'd love to get him back.

"Starter Mike Pelfrey could be part of the deal as well...."

There's your missing pitcher in the deal. Put him in the mix in addition to the other four guys and you may have something the Twins would take. But would the Mets really give up all five?

Not sure about Church in CF, because the idea of Cuddyer out there was just Gardenhire blowin' smoke.

How is Church just quantity? He's one of the most underrated players in the game who is going to put up impressive numbers when he finally gets a starting job.

BS is waiting for his dream package, and it's never going to come. Nobody is going to give him what he wants. Deal him now, or enjoy your draft picks.

"Mets fans already have Church as a guy who hits .285-25-85 every year. You can EASILY replace that with a FA or young guy."

The remaining free agents are league average at best... and .285-25-85 is not league average.

@AJ

The A's got that package for Haren because he's more valuable.

He's under contract for 3 more years (at chump change) versus Santana who is only under contract for one more year but will then need an extension paying him $20mil a year.

Santana shouldn't bring nearly the same return as Haren.

Hmm. Pretty sure I didn't say the Twins should get the same return as the A's got for Haren. I surely didn't say the Twins should get 6 prospects. I said the Twins should get 4 prospects and Ryan Church. Seems pretty fair considering the A's got 6 prospects.

Church has value.

Assuming Pelfrey or Humber is in it with the others, this seems reasonable.

Or put another way,

Pelfrey, Guerra, Mulvey, and Gomez OR Martinez was not enough.

Pelfrey, Guerra, Mulvey, Gomez AND Martinez was too much.

Replacing Gomez with Church seems about right.

I still don't know if I take this over an offer including Hughes, but you are certainly spreading out your risk with this one, and getting at least one player who is a near certainty to contribute (Church).

Hmm. Pretty sure I didn't say you said the Twins should get the same return as the A's got for Haren. I surely didn't say you said the Twins should get 6 prospects.

You used Haren as an example. Haren is more valuable than Santana.

6 prospects is not that much more than 4 prospects and Ryan Church. If anything, Church is worth more than a prospect since he's a known commodity.

F-Mart, Guerra, Church, Mulvey, and Humber/Pelfrey is too much.

tis is hilarious. while i agree that the eal seems like a decent one, i just cant get over all this Ryan Church talk.
He may be a little underrated but every Met fan alive was lambasting Minaya for the Milledge deal. Now Church suddenly is a great player.
And Crisp is definetly better then Church. Their offensive numbers are quite similar but Crisp blows him away defensively

I think this is would be a good deal for the Twins and the Mets. Like other have said before me this is probably the most reasonable of offers that Mets have made.

Church and Pelfrey would be able to play right away, while Guerra and FMart have potential for the future.

With the Sox and Yankees sitting back at this point, the Twins should jump at this deal...They know they're not going to get Gomez and FMart in the same deal.

Why would the Twins be concerned with service time? Church has just over 2 years and is in arbitration, while Coco has just over 4 years and is making over $10 mil. over the next two years.

Church is cheaper and better.

ok let's say they are equal defesively, Church is noticably better offensive and while crisp has been in the league longer he has a track record of being injury prone. Church must have more value. All this in RFK, not tiny Fenway

I can't see how this would, sweeten the pot and help the Twins. The last thing Minnesota needs is another corner outfielder. The prospect of moving Cuddyer to CF is not good. He's got a great arm, but definitely lacks the range necessary to patrol center field. If at all possible, I'd say to hold out for Gomez and Martinez, sign someone like Kenny Lofton for this year, and hand over the CF keys to Gomez for '09. Church may be capable player, but he doesnt have the necessary tools to complete the Twins outfield.

Church doesn't have the necessary tools?

How about the fact that he plays CF?

16 innings in 04
125.2 in 05
369.7 in 06
326 in 07

All while being a part-time player.

If I'm Omar, I give BS the following options:

F-Mart, Gomez, Pelf, Humber
F-Mart, Guerra, Mulvey, Pelf
F-Mart, Guerra, Mulvey, Humber
Gomez, Guerra, Mulvey, Church, Pelfrey

not giving both sorry.
Those sound like dec proposals

"Yeah, Church will be a great 4th outfielder.

What Omar fails to realize is that Milledge is a STARTING OUTFIELDER.

What an idiot.

Posted by: JerseyMetFan | November 30, 2007 at 01:47 PM"

JerseyMetFan, it seems as though your opinion has changed since Minaya made the deal to bring Church in from Washington, despite ever seeing Ryan Church play in a Mets uniform.

I wonder, why was he a 4th OF back in November, but now he's got the breakout potential to be the key to a johan deal?

In those same four seasons where Church has played part-time CF, he's stolen a grand total of 12 bases. Minnesota definitely needs a speedster out in CF, especially if Alexi Casilla won't be our regular second baseman. Church is a good ball player; but I just don't see how bringing him to Minnesota benefits either club.

In those same four seasons where Church has played part-time CF, he's stolen a grand total of 12 bases. Minnesota definitely needs a speedster out in CF, especially if Alexi Casilla won't be our regular second baseman. Church is a good ball player; but I just don't see how bringing him to Minnesota benefits either club.

JMF, sorry... yes, by "him" I meant Church. The Twins are going to want the guy the farthest away from Free Agency.

I suspect Church is taking the place of Gomez in the discussions. The Twins may figure Church is solid enough in CF to do the deal. He's not great against lefties but the Twins did pick up Monroe, who's solid against lefties while not hitting righthanders well. Maybe, worst case, you see a platoon.

No legit leadoff hitter is apparent, but who knows who might prove passable in ST.

If the deal involves Church, Pelfrey, Martinez and Guerra, and one more guy of any talent at all, the Twins probably make the deal immediately. If the Mets won't deal all four of those guys, Smith may sit tight a few more days.

DO NOT COMPARE RYAN CHURCH TO COCO CRISP MAN IT'S JUST SAD,
coco is one of the best in center, the guy defines gravity, im a yankees fan and i look at all red sox games to see how they play, and coco is amazing in center, he is even better than your beltran in center, in 1216 innings he had a .998 felding %, hey even melky caberara feliding % was better with even more innings than beltran.

if the twins accept this deal i'd be suprised, i think twins just messing with mets so red sox and yankeees can improve their offer, i mean look at what the mets are giving..? playes that have not prove anything, gomez is just fast, even i can bat better. elsburrry is nasty, it would be stupid if the twins accept 5 no good players over elsburrry, hey i'd even take phil huges alone over mets 5 players, let mets keeep their 5 prospects, i bet they will not play in the majors, only gomez maybe

BxSquad,
Carlos Gomez can give the Twins what Coco Crisp could give them in defense. Coco can't hit. By the way, Coco can't hit. Crisp will be a better hitter in the short term than Gomez, but Gomez's ceiling is higher. Martinez, will be a better hitter than Ellesbury, but Ellesbury is and will be a better all around player than Martinez

I love how Gomez already is labeled as a guy that cant hit, mostly by guys who have seen nothing more then his cup of coffee at the ML level. His OBP got better and better in the minors as he got older, and his frame is that of a guy who has the potential to develop big time power as he gets closer to 25 years old and fills out.

Ha ha...You still look at fielding %. Melky is a horror out there. The fielding bible has him as one of the worst three players in the league when it comes to fielding and Beltran one of the best three. You comparing the two discredits whatever else you say because you show a complete lack of understanding.

RE: Church & Crips. Warp1 for Church was 5.4 and Crips was 6.0

When you factor in service time, I would lean towards Church and considering the Twins need offense, I am sure they would as well.

Crips defense is spectacular, but offensively he is inferior unless he reverts back to 2004 and 2005. Church's ofense closes the gap significantly.

RE: Gomez...you do know he posted better numbers @ 20 in AA than Hanley did in AA @ 21? What gives you an inkling that he cannot hit? There is a reason that experts (and plenty of GMs) universally like him.

"tis is hilarious. while i agree that the eal seems like a decent one, i just cant get over all this Ryan Church talk.
He may be a little underrated but every Met fan alive was lambasting Minaya for the Milledge deal. Now Church suddenly is a great player.
And Crisp is definetly better then Church. Their offensive numbers are quite similar but Crisp blows him away defensively"

I am a Met fan. I am also alive. I did not bash this trade. There goes your theory. A lot of MEt fans bashed this trade because they were too lazy too go look up Churchs numbers, or because they didnt realize that getting 2 league average (at worst) starting players for one prospect (with the ability to turn into Gary Sheffield, or Jay Payton, and has soured in the eyes of the organization and around the league), is not being "robbed".

Again, there is simply no chance that the Twins will take Coco Crisp in a trade for Johan Santana and allow the Red Sox to keep Ellsbury! The Twins have repeatedly told the Red Sox that they will not take Coco Crisp instead of Ellsbury. If the Red Sox want to keept Buchholz then they have to give Twins Ellsbury AND Lester.

Coco Crisp simply isn't good enough to take back as a key player in trade for a two time Cy Young winner in his prime. Crisp is a guy you play every day when you don't have other options, not because you want him out there. It doesn't make any difference whether Coco Crisp is statistically a "better" player than Ryan Church; the point is that Twins management is smart enough to know that they can can be forgiven if they gambled on acquiring promising players who just never panned out, but will not be forgiven for taking a known mediocrity like Coco Crisp instead.

as a nats fan, i like church and agree he was a bit underrated. but don't underestimate the fact that he's very one-sided at the plate and that, because of his inability to hit lefties, he was platooned with... wait for it... nook logan.

let me say it again, he was platooned with... NOOK LOGAN.

he's a great 4th OF, and plays well when given more limited ABs (say 300-400). but while he "projects" out nicely for a full season, when he's playing every day, he doesn't seem to hit as well.

he's really a platoon guy, not a solid full-time starter.

I don't see why the Twins would change their posistion. They have been consistant about getting youth they can control for 5 years or more. Church doesn't fit here.

ha I love when fans make statements like that shows what you really know. If it suits you you're right melky is better than the nl gold glove winner at def. Your great please continue to be a Yankees fan. Also I must agree that church isn't all that great. I did like the trade that got him though. He is also ready for everyday play at CF.

OK, a few things.

1) Church is not any better than Crisp. The person who commented on the fact that Church can't and hasn't hit lefties is dead-on. You cannot strictly compare their OPS. Crisp is a full-time player while Church has had over 268 ab's exactly ONCE! And Crips is a far, far superior defensive player.

2) I agree that Church probably won't close the deal. Seems like a stretch, unless there's still at least Martinez/Pelfrey/Guerra/Mulvey or Humber in the package.

3) To the poster that commented on Young's arm, yes, he has a cannon, but you are forgetting about Cuddyer, who also has a cannon. In fact, Cuddyer tied for the lead in OF assists in the majors last year with 19, and that was despite the fact that he missed 3 weeks of time, and opposing teams stopped running on him in the 2nd half. Those are 2 of the best outfield arms in the whole game. There will be a lot of station to station games for opposing teams against the Twins this year. Plus Cuddyer plays the baggie at the Dome great and LF in the Dome requires a bit more range than RF (Delmon has slighly more range). It makes sense for Delmon to play LF and Cuddyer to play RF and that is exactly what will happen. For what it's worth, Cuddyer and Young both have very bad range, so the Twins do need a very good defensive CF to make up for that. Church would not be it.

4) Melky Cabrera is NOT a good defensive CF. He is terrible, quite frankly. 2nd worst CF in baseball according to the Fielding Bible, which is a lot more reliable than "fielding percentage." His one redeeming tool is a very good arm. That's it. And arm strength is far from the most important tool for a CF.

In the end, as a Twins fan, I still definitely prefer either of the Sox packages, but I also do not want to see that frightening Sox staff every year in the playoffs with Santana/Beckett/Buchholz/Dice-K. So I would be willing to take less to deal with the Mets, and that's what this is. Just not sure if I would settle for THIS much less. If the Twins can get a decent defensive CF then it's fine to accept a package like Martinez/Guerra/Pelfrey/Mulvey/Humber, an spin a couple of the arms elsewhere for a pitcher.

Otherwise, just doesn't make a ton of sense to me.

"mets is like a laughing stock in my school because their a disgrace to new york,"

Kind of like how you are the laughing stock of this blog? I mean, your baseball knowledge is very small, if you have any at all, and your intelligence on being a human also sucks. Crappy spelling and grammar and just being an idiot. Good day.

The Twins have no need for Church, where would they play him. Church is not the type of outfielder the Twins would play in center and would still need to acquire a center fielder. They have more outfielders now then they need except they have no one to play center. Ideally the Twins center fielder hits lead off too.