Giants' Talks With Feliz Stall

Lowry, forget about it. Whitesoxfan, I would have thought you were a Giants fan with that proposal. How could you want Lowry? I'm a Sox fan too, and would never touch the guy. Cain, Lincecum yes, if that was somehow possible. But I don't see it...

Direction? pretty clear Sabean doesn't know! We'll know once he guts the team of all it's remaining talent in another lopsided trade that he'seyeballing his exit strategy and what team he'll be looking at getting hired by.

Next years slogan...BRING IN BRIAN CASHMAN

Lowry isn't as bad as you think. If the Sox could get cain or lincecum in a deal, that would be ideal. I'd love to see a crede for kevin correia trade, helps both teams

I'd take the Crede for Correia deal, as much as I want to see him get an opportunity to start all season for the giants. I'm kinda glad that everyone doesn't want Noah Lowry because I like having him on the Giants. Any reason why people don't want him?Is it the perception that his shoulder might be damaged because of the end oflast year? Do you think he is already on the downhill? The guy is pretty good and would be a solid #3 on most teams. For a team in such need of pitching as the White Sox, you should be happy with about anything at this point. Especially a guy who won 14 games in 26 starts...and for such an offensivly challenged team. It's easy to see him having won 17-18 games last year on the White Sox (and how about last years form with this years sox' lineup?).

Say what you want about his hits allowed or walks to strikeouts, but he scatters the guy on base and is able to get outs. If not for his last 4 games pitching with an injured shoulder, his ERA would've been under 3.50.

Sure, there's NO WAY this guy would help the White Sox win games this year. Give me a break!

Anyways, I'll be more than glad to see him stay on the giants and be part of the rebuilding but I understand if he needs to go because they don't have much major league ready talent in the farm. I say go get Nick Johnson and build around him.

E-Roc,

That is the move I've been hoping for. Although, I think it would cost Lowry or Sanchez

Eric Chavez could also be a trade target. Feliz and Chavez both have good gloves, above-average pop and hit below .250!

Of course, Chavez was injured for the last three years, which may explain the slump.

No injured vets, please!

What's stopping Sabes from signing Dallas McPherson?

I guess you guys missed the MLBTR post on this: Cain and Lincecum were officially taken off the trade market after Rowand was signed. Or rather, they were never on the market, but the Giants were willing to listen until Rowand was signed.

Hey, if you don't like a pitcher who can keep his ERA under 4.00 consistently, your loss. Lowry's not a world-beater but not every pitcher on your staff is going to be a world beater. And that's way better than Contreras, Danks, and Floyd was able to do in 2007. Heck, Lowry's never been that high with his ERA in his career. Now who's laughing?

That's funny, joemorgan, most respected analysts seem to think Angel Villalona is one of the top prospects around. Plus, having Cain and Lincecum gives lots of hope AND are very respectable major league players. I think Rowand's pretty good too. Jonathan Sanchez is a pretty good trading chip, the Mets once offered Carlos Gomez for him and they consider him to be like Jose Reyes in CF.

The Giants aren't great but they don't suck, their offense sucks, but the team overall don't suck because of their pitching. Unfortunately, they appear to be in the middle, which as Billy Beane noted recently, is death.

And Feliz, as much as I would hate the Giants re-signing him, and especially so if it's for more than one year, he was voted the best 3B by voters in Bill James Handbook for 2007 season. The Fielding Bible's data showed that Feliz was by far the best fielding 3B by their Plus/Minus system. He was +5 ahead of the next fielding (he was at +27, meaning that there were 27 more balls he got to that some 3B didn't get to) and the 9th place 3B (a tie actually) had only a +7 overall himself, which is about how far above Feliz was over #2. He was also the leader in the 3 year tallies as well, but not as wide a split, he really had a good year in 2007. So he is certainly one of worse hitting 3B around, but by this measure (also Baseball Musing's PMR has him top ranked as well, if I recall correctly) he's one of the best fielders around.

I prefer playing Frandsen at 3B to start 2008, but if Feliz was signed for a year, it won't be the end of the world (though I would prefer that the Giants save that money to sign good draft picks that fell to them and/or international free agents who are good, and add to our farm system). He would actually be OK for the Giants batting in the 7th position, his low 700 OPS hitting would put us in the middle of the pack for the #7 hitter. It's when he bats higher that kills the lineup.

The direction of the Giants, which comes from Peter Magowan, not Brian Sabean, is that the Giants will be looking to win in 2008 (he wants the seats filled; big mortgage!), but that players acquired are not going to be players who is here to win in 2008 but will help them in the future as well. Hence the Rowand signing but nothing much else other than Vizquel's signing. But Omar can still pick it, and his OPS was acceptable after April for an 8th place hitter, which is where I thought he should have been hitting for us all this time anyway. Better than a retread like Royce Clayton anyday.

Besides, signing older guys does not mean their strategy is on focused on getting younger. Sometimes you are forced to do things when you have no other choices. That's been the problem the past 3-4 seasons, we needed replacements to stay competitive, what with Bonds's $20M salary you basically have to, so you are stuck with whatever slop is in the market available to you.

And I just want to say that you laugh at Lowry but then think that Konerko and Crede is enough to get a Cain or Lincecum. My turn to laugh.

About 3B, Encarnacion is a good choice, but Hall and Blalock are not.

Blalock especially, he is a product of his home park, he has never hit well outside of Arlington, and he's only gotten worse in recent years. Just say NO!

Hall had a lucky year in 2006 - his HR/FB was 19%, way above the 10% average that pitchers average, way above the 10% that he has essentially averaged during his career - and when you take that out, he has only hit over the .800 OPS you want to see out of your 3B in one season (2005), and has been way under the other years (2003, 2004, 2007). Add that his OPS is nearly 100 points lower on the road (.748 on the road, not very 3B worthy, not even CF worthy) and I say no thanks.

Encarnacion at least has done some stuff at the MLB level, and while his home park helps, he improved to .799 OPS on the road in 2007, plus he's only 25 in 2008 and headed into his physical prime years. There was talk all last season that the Reds were not happy with him, so I'd be willing to take him off their hands, I would give up Lowry or Sanchez (plus lower specs) for him in a heartbeat.

But I wouldn't give much more than that (and perhaps it's too much but you have to overpay sometimes), he's been below average for a 3B based on his hitting on the road (his home park skews things too much to be useful), and he's not that great a fielder, doesn't make the Plus/Minus leader list, and is near the bottom in Range as well as ol' fielding percentage, according to Bill James Handbook.

With all that said I think a crede/lowry or crede/correia swap makes sense. sox get pitching, giants get a year of solid defense and most likely above league average hitting for $5mm i believe while they continue to build the confidence of their youngin's... win/win situation for both clubs

Lowry is (even by the detractors) a #4 starter under team control for 3 years at 13 mil. That almost the Free Agent rate for 1 year right now. Crede is on the market next off season. Lowry for Crede is about as fair as Durham for Konerko … maybe even less so.

Corriea is interesting. He finished the season as a starter and had a lot of starts against teams in the race for the post season. He did well. But again why lose him for sign a lesser version of Feliz when it just cost you money for the original?

Who is this Feliz Stall of which you speak?

God I'm hilarious.

Tim - The Giants direction is win every year. The owner controls the team vision, not Sabean. Peter Magowan answers to his ownership group and sponsors, none of them will tolerate a year in which they admit to waiving a white flag. I think despite that, Sabean signed everyone going into '07 (all 3yr deals except Durham/Feliz, both less than 2) with the idea of needing three years to fix the farm system. Another big part of the problem is that they (Magowan, the other primary owner) are too attached to the Giants flagship radio station, KNBR. They go on and do interviews, they actually LISTEN to the station routinely. Well, when all they hear is fans calling in to complain about the pathetic roster, the losing, instead of ignoring it all they take it to heart and don't allow Sabean freedom to do what needs to be done. Sabean was allowed to do what Beane did this year when he first came over, I don't know why it is no longer okay. The Giants to me are like the Orioles, Rangers, teams that live in the middle but talk like they aren't.

Last year, after all the pre-season predictions came out that the Giants would finish dead last in the NL West, Magowan was livid. From that point on, locally, it was a media blitz that the Giants were going to compete, were better than what was being said nationally, etc.

I've been reading on MLBTR for a long while now, but I've finally decided to register. So yes, I'm a n00b. But I'm excited to finally partake in the discussions on here. Anyways..moving on...

As a White Sox fan, I'm going to be sad to see Crede go. Unfortunately it looks like thats what has to happen. I think it would be unfair to OVERestimate Crede's value, but I think its unfair to underestimate his value as well.

To anyone talking smack about Crede's fielding ability, I say unto thee..suck it. Crede's fielding ability is not in question. His career fielding percentage is .968. Pretty darn good. Compare it Scott Rolen's .966. Rolen is praised on his defense and yet Crede's is overlooked.

Crede could certainly improve at the plate, but he's not terrible at all. Who knows how he'll perform in 2008. Sure, his health is in question. But there's no way of telling if this surgery will fix the problem or not. He says he feels great. Anything is possible.

I just hope that we get something worthwhile for the trade.

No one is saying Crede is a butcher with a glove. He just does not equal Feliz defensively. To say otherwise is to utterly disregard facts.

Is Crede’s 30 home runs ( best year) in a home park that gives up the long ball a lot more then Mays Field really is that more impressive then Feliz’s steady 20 hr’s a year to you? Besides no one hits many from the bench or the trainers table.

As for the contention that the White Sox would keep Crede if there is no Fields then way not move him to the corner outfield spot or DH and lock him up? Answer is because he is not worth it. Just like Feliz is not worth a long term contract.

If you are another team and want to bank on a health risk bouncing back why not go for Rolen? At least you would not have to re bid on his services again in 12 months.

Look, no one is saying Joe Crede is not a good, if not very good, defensive 3B. No one is saying we would rather have Pedro Feliz, long term or short term.

What we are saying is, in no way is Joe Crede a better DEFENSIVE 3B than Pedro Feliz. Feliz was robbed of a gold glove this year by an undeserving David Wright (but thats for another time). Feliz has actually developed into one of the top 3-4 defensive 3B in the game.

DEFENSIVE, not overall.

I don't want Feliz brought back for any length of time, but it really wouldn't be horrible. It's just that after 7 years of no real offensive improvement, it's time for change.

Joe Crede might be another form of Pedro Feliz, but maybe not. It would only be for one year, so if it fails, we are already used to failed trades where we give pitching away for nothing. Or maybe his youth compared to Feliz allows for him to improve far beyond Pedro Feliz ever will while only giving up a little in defense.

Either way, it is laughable to hear somehow Crede being "clutch" offensivly somehow makes him better defensively and it'snice to know his Silver Slugger makes him a "gold glove caliber" player. Darren Lewis once played the entire season in CF without an error, maybe this makes him a good candidate to plug in the cleanup spot for the giants this year. (heck, he might still fit the getter younger category)

Teahan is an interesting option I hadn't thought of. I think that would be incredibly smart for the giants. Other than him, Crede, and Encarnacion, not to many others worth the bounty. If not them,go with Feliz.

Rolen- the money, years left, and injury risk, not to mention were not getting any younger. no way
Chavez- if the A's paid some of his salary (which will never happen) maybe, but his injury risk and contract are not ideal.
Inge- looks more like Feliz at the plate with more K's and better speed. I'll take Pedro for another year.
Blaylock-it would cost to much for too short a time to get him, not to mention is he really that good when you take him out of texas?
Hall-maybe but I thinkiwould rather keep our pitching
McPherson-not proven at all. Now i'mallfor going young but he's already been ruled out. He's a Boras client and his price is way to high.

And as for Konerko, you can keep him. By the time the giants are ready to contend, he'll be to old to help. Unless they can manage Joey Votto without giving up either of the Cain/Lincecum duo, then I say go for Nick Johnson in the spring when the Nats are ready to deal or go with what we have until next fall.