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Johan Santana Traded To Mets

UPDATE, 1-29-08 at 4:22: Ken Rosenthal says the 72-hour window to sign Santana is now open.

UPDATE, 1-29-08 at 3:15pm: Bob Nightengale of USA Today says an agreement to trade Santana to the Mets has been reached.  They'll send Carlos Gomez, Philip Humber, Deolis Guerra, and Kevin Mulvey to the Twins.  The Mets still have to work out a six or seven year extension for Santana, according to Nightengale.  If this baby reaches its true conclusion we'll sit down and analyze.

UPDATE, 1-29-08 at 2:55pm: More from Olney.  His sources say the Mets have the best offer, the Red Sox also made offers, and the Yanks are out.  Santana apparently asked the Twins to make a decision, wrap this thing up.  Wrap it up!  Olney is not sure whether F-Mart is part of the Mets' offer.

UPDATE, 1-29-08 at 2:06pm: SI.com's Jon Heyman weighs in.  He sees the Mets as the frontrunner, the Red Sox on the fringes, and the Yankees as nearly out of the running.  The Mets are offering Gomez/Humber/Mulvey/Guerra but not Fernando Martinez.  If they get Santana, the Mets will commit to only five years but with a high average annual value of $22-25MM.

UPDATE, 1-29-08 at 1:11pm: WFAN's Mike Francesa believes the Twins upped their offer to five years, $100MM for Santana, but he rejected it.

UPDATE, 1-29-08 at 9:42am: ESPN's Buster Olney says the Twins asked for each team's "last and best offers" on Monday.  They could decide Santana's fate as early as today.  Olney adds that the Yankees "appear to be not presently engaged whatsoever in the Santana talks."  Olney used to be a Yankees beat writer, so he's bound to have a good line on this.

As for the Red Sox - Olney is hearing conflicting things about Jon Lester's availability.  It's possible that Lester could only be had in a more limited package - he, Coco Crisp, and not much else.

FROM 1-29-08 at 8:02am:

Over at MetsBlog today, Matthew Cerrone does a nice job summing up the Johan Santana situation. 

The New York Daily News indicates that the Mets are the one team pushing for Santana, but the Twins might use the Erik Bedard haul as a measuring stick.  Joel Sherman sees it as a Mets-Red Sox battle.  He notes that Carlos Gomez will skip the Caribbean Series not because of an impending trade but just to limit his games. 

We could finally get some kind of resolution with Santana this week.  Just to keep things interesting, check out Mark Healey's note about the Dodgers "creeping into the picture."

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Comments

again... just do the deal so we can get some fresh rumors. im gettin tired of this, bedard, and roberts and nothing else...

Healey really think the red sox are out of this picture? Is he out of his mind? the red sox are just leaving their offer on the table. they know that as far as the twins are concerned, the red sox have BY FAR the best offer. I do like the yankees offer to. the mets offer if you ask me is a joke. yes there are 2 mlb ready prospects involved with gomez and martinez but once again there in no insurance on any of these players. Kei igawa was a big japanese prospect, hes now in A trying to figure out how to pitch in MLB. The yankees deal is very good too especially if its hughes instead of kennedy, however here is my breakdown. They want a good center fielder tho which both crisp or ellsbury. cabrera is alright, but as i've said before if you look at his numbers, especially defensively, crisp or ellsbury is a much better selection and will cost the twins a bit less.

basically my main point is either lester or ellsbury both have proven their worth in the majors, which even hughes i cant really say has, due to an injury shortened season for him.

sorry for terrible grammar. still way to early. you get what i mean though i hope haha.

"The Mets offer if you ask me is a joke"

Thankfully, nobody is asking you.

jersey i was going to tell him something like that, but its not even worth it. I feel like I have been defending the Mets prospects for months. One thing that will be nice about the Mets getting santana is the Omar bashers and Mets prospect bashers will have to give somewhere. How does a crappy GM get the best pitcher in baseball using a system full of scrubs?

cuz Bill Smith is an idoit ..plan an simple

I think that Johan should have sold himself to a TV station for the winter. Did any of you see the Truman show? It could be the Johan Show. Camera's just following him 24 hours a day 7 days a week so we can have nonstop access to exactly what he is doing every minute of the day. If he starts wacking it with the right arm, I might believe some of the rumors about his throwing arm :).

Seriously, imagine how many people would watch something like that? Its amazing how many people want to know what has happened in the last 10 minutes and check back in100's of times a day to look for updated news.

Yeah... I'm so tired of the Met bashers that I really don't care if this deal goes down or not.

It's funny how all of the homers say our prospects suck, and refuse to listen to guys like Keith Law, Jim Callis, or any other scouts that say the Mets should hang on to him and not even trade him for the best pitcher in baseball.

And in related news nothing has changed.

No one cares anymore

Yeah, thats what everybody says but they all still come here everyday and talk about how much they dont care.

I'm guilty of that myself.

I tell myself that I don't care and I just want it to end one way or another, yet I'm here all day every day while at work just continuously hitting refresh...

We are all a little guilty of that. I am as tired of it as anybody, and as is well known here, dont really want Santana, but I cant pretend that it does not still interest me. There are probably more then a few annoyed GM's of other teams not even involved in Santana who have their own business to attend to, but are being slowed down because everybody wants to see what happens with Bedard and Johan before the smaller pieces start moving around.

I'm pretty sure Cerrone goes to bed every night praying that Santana becomes a Met even with the package of crap they are offering.

The Mets offer is garbage. If the Twins wanted it this deal would have been done by now. They want the Yankees prospects and pushing stories that say they would take the Mets crap may make the Yanks come back and talk.

No one believes the Mets will get him for 2 long relievers, an OF'er who cannot hit and an 18 yr old Class A pitcher who doesnt have an off speed pitch.

Part of it is that while the Mets have a *decent* offer on the table, I think the Red Sox have a better one. The other part is that I just don't want the Mets to get Santana because I'm a Braves fan. In my perfect world, the Twins keep him away from the Evil Empire, the Evil Empire Part II, or my team's direct competitor.

Deolis Guerra supposedly has a deadly changeup. Isnt that offspeed?

I can play that game too. The Twins obviously dont want the Yankees package.

They dont want a young and unproven, not to mention injury prone Phil Hughes, who has yet to prove anything.

They also dont want Melky, pretty much the worst starting CF in all of baseball. And why would they want scrubs like Marquez and Kennedy when they have much better options then that internally?

"No one believes the Mets will get him for 2 long relievers, an OF'er who cannot hit and an 18 yr old Class A pitcher who doesnt have an off speed pitch."

And by the way, lots and lots of people do believe that package will get it done.

But anybody who says Fernando Martinez cant hit and that Deolis Guerra has no offspeed pitch is obviously an ignorant fool talking out of their ass. Why am I wasting my time.

In other news, Josh is an MLB scout.

Educate yourself before you get in this discussion.

I wasn't aware that the Mets were offering long relievers in the deal. What I've read is that Mulvey/Humber project to be #3 pitchers at best, while Pelfrey has the potential to be a #2.

An OF'er who cannot hit... I assume you're talking about Carlos Gomez. You seem like the ignorant type that would focus solely on his major league numbers from last season. However, the only reason he got called up was because of the injuries that decimated the Mets OF. He never should have been called up in the first place.

As far as Guerra goes... I don't know where you even heard that. Do you have a source, or do you just make stuff up? Regardless, he's an 18 year old that put up a 1.17 WHIP and a 4.01 ERA in Hi-A ball. 18 years old. He should be in his senior year of High School right now.

To say the Mets offer is garbage is just 100% ignorance.

"We could finally get some kind of resolution with Santana this week."

Or not.

"Just to keep things interesting, check out Mark Healey's note about the Dodgers..."

I've been wondering why they haven't "crept into the picture" for a couple of months now.

Supposedly the Twins asked teams for their "Last, best offer" yesterday.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3220115

I'm sure the teams submitted their "last, best offers" yesterday and BS will take another 8-10 weeks to pick one of them.

So, pretty much, the Twins will decide today whether or not they are going to make a decision today?

nrmax88, that's how I read it to:

"The Twins could weigh the offers and decide to keep Santana into spring training, in the hope that a more aggressive market for the left-hander develops."

In other words: nothing's changed, the twins are still holding out for more.

It's done, Santana is a Met....Red Sox will never pay the money, AND the prospects, if the Yankees aren't willing to...done deal, I bet it's already agreed to, and Omar is working with Johan on an extension

Gomez Stinks. Melky is better than him... Look at the stats in his minors and Melky's play in tougher league ...

At least Melky is patient hitter unlike Gomez who strikes out a ton..

Why would Twins Mulvey ? Kennedy is better than him and put better numbers in the minors than stinkin Mulvey. Kennedy was former first round pick , In case you forgot.

Pelfrey is sinker ball pitcher? Why would Twins want him?

Arcthelad. Good stuff buddy. By the way, this is me being sarcastic.

Another Yankee homer... great.

I'm not getting into the Melky/Gomez debate again. You're just beating a dead horse.

As far as Kennedy and Mulvey go... what's your point? I'll even agree with you... I'd take Kennedy over Mulvey.

However, you're missing something.

Gomez > Melky
Kennedy > Mulvey

What about the rest of the package? Are you going to tell me that Tabata is better than F-Mart?

"Are you going to tell me that Tabata is better than F-Mart?"

Yes, I would be willing to bet he will tell you that shortly.

Funny tidbit...

Gomez had as many steals in 2005 (A-ball, 120 games) as Melky has had in his minor league and major league career.... COMBINED.

64 steals.

I HATE THE YANKEES GO AWAY ARCTHELAD GO AWAY YOUR TEAM SUCKS

Umm Arc... I'm not sure where to begin, but I'll start with this:
1) Melky is purely average, nothing more. Gomez has a much higher potential.
2) Kennedy isn't on the table from what I understand and the Twins would prefer Hughes over Kennedy
3) Is Pelfry a sinkerballer? CAn a Mets fan tell me, I'm not sure of his pitch list.
4) Twins adding Everett meant a superior infield defense which means a sinkerballer would post better numbers.
5) Many first round picks have gone on to suck, your argument is flawed.

i think the fact that this has dragged out for so long has gotten to most of our heads.

in reality, every fan of the yankees is going to sell IPK, Melky, Marquez as better than what the Mets are offering, even without Hughes in the deal, because IPK and Melky specifically are MLB ready right now.

the mets fans are going to say that Gomez is better than Melky, and Mulvey and Guerra are as good as any of the Yankees pitchers.

and Red Sox fans are going to argue that their package of prospects, even without Bucholtz, is the best.

we are all fans trying to convince each other that our specific team's package is better than or as good as another team's, mainly because we all want Johan on our team in some way.

this just isnt going to happen...

Team sucks?

Look in the mirror before saying something stupid...

The Yankees won 4 world series and made playoffs ever year. Where is the respect?

How about Ny Mets? Oops that's they choke last year and haven't won world series last 20 years. Arrogant Mets Fans always talking trash , they thought they won the world series last year..

OK great... Yankees are god's gift to the world. We get it.

How about arguing some of the other points that were brought up?

Ok it comes down to this:
Mets don't have the major centerpiece that the Red Sox and Yanks have (Hughes, Lester or Ellsbury) but they have enough good prospects and a decent quantity to make it work. Add to it, they really need a starter.

Ultimately I'm still betting on the Mets, though more because they're more likely to fold and add Martinez to the deal.

In that case The Yankees should add Marquez in deal for Santana. He's sinker ball pitcher like Pelfrey who throws mid-90's fast ball and former first round pick which Yankees got for losing Fat and Slob David Wells.

Yes, Pelfrey is a sinkerballer. The movement he gets on his pitches almost reminds me of Webb, minus Webbs pretty good control. He runs the 4 seamer up to 97 or 98, and the 2 seamer comes inat 92-94, moving like crazy. It moves down and in on righties, and Pelfreys size really lets him get on top of the ball and get tremendous movement. His problem is location. He pretty much throws those 2 pitches and a slider and change that are works in progress. The slider is coming along fairly nicely though. Mets fans got a glimpse of Pelfreys upside in spring training of 07 when we watched this guys just bury sinker after sinker in on guys hands and get grounder after grounder.

nrmax, thanks, that's the best scouting report I've seen on him. So I'll revise my statement, if the deal is Gomez, Martinez, Pelfry, and 2 pitching prospects then the Mets pacackage is superior. Minus Gomez or Martinez and it's lacking.

TurnTwo, actually I'm a Red Sox fan and I seriously doubt the Red Sox have the best package, I'm betting the Sox are offering just enough to make the Yanks shy away.

Arc, once again, the fact that he's a former first round pick means jack.

"How about Ny Mets? Oops that's they choke last year and haven't won world series last 20 years. Arrogant Mets Fans always talking trash , they thought they won the world series last year.."

You are the only one talking trash you idiot. I love the guys who come in talking unwarranted trash that they cant even back up. Get called out, and then go on the defensive and talk about how their team won 4 world series in the 90's, but havent won a thing since 2000, yet they dont defend the points that we were arguing, they just say the Mets choked and that we show no respect for the yankees. Its almost as if Tim is getting so big he can afford to put idiots in the readers section for our entertainement now. What an imbecile this guy is.

i think start wearing purple has it.

Mets are most in need of Johan, but dont have the centerpiece. they are in the drivers seat as long as the Yankees refuse to part with Hughes.

the Sox prob have the next best package, because their two packages have MLB ready talent as a centerpiece. However, they are just as wary as the Yankees about giving up both the talent and the contract.

the Mets package isnt bad, and its definately better than the 2 draft picks the Twins would get by just letting Johan walk, but its more quantity than quality in the sense that the best potential prospects in the deal are so young and raw, you cant possibly know how they'll pan out yet as a MLB'er.

in the end, all things considered, i think the Twins would rather send Johan to the NL and take a package of possibles than trade him within the AL for packages that dont include Hughes or Ellsbury AND Lester.

Mets Fans – Read above and substitute Giants for Yankees. Mets fans are cocky for no good reason. Every 7 or 8 years they catch lightning in a bottle, but for the most part they are all talk, and no results.

Turntwo, but that can also work to the Twins advantage (getting young and raw players like Guerra, Gomez, Nando etc.). It could obviously work against them, but thats the only side people talk about. Lets say Gomez starts off at AAA and is hitting .300 and has 15 HR's and 35 SB through 300 at bats. And what if MArtinez is 100 percent and is mashing AA pitching to a .330/.400/.500 line? And what if Guerra takes a big step up in his development and ends the season dominating in AA at 19 years old. These guys could flame out, but it is also possible that this trade can be a Matt Kemp, Chadd Billingsley quality offer a few months from now if these guys have strong seasons.

"Mets Fans – Read above and substitute Giants for Yankees. Mets fans are cocky for no good reason. Every 7 or 8 years they catch lightning in a bottle, but for the most part they are all talk, and no results."

Yea, because Mets fans are the only fans who talk. Lets be real. You act as if Yankee fans have more of a right to talk before a given season because of their history. Its not like you helped them win a damn thing. I would be willing to be the only reason you are a Yankee fan is either A) you picked it up at school to fit in better, or B) Becuase your daddy was a yankee fan so you were born into it. Its not like your special because your a yankee fan. Its not like the fans can have a say on the results anyway. Your posts are pretty much all talk, no results. All you do is spout your opinions and personal bias' and go on the devensive when you get called out for being the dolt that you are. And you still havent even given one piece of statistical evidence to even begin to support your case. Because you dont really have one.

It's Twins Decision to make which team has best package for Santana, Not Omar or Mets. Good Luck....

this "your team sucks, no your team sucks" stuff really has to stop. It's so freakin' lame, it makes the comments section a waste. Just stop. I beg you.


Now, if I were Bill Smith, I'd be trying like mad to have Santana land in the NL so there's a lower "haunting" factor. Maybe he'd accept less from the Mets (if it's indeed less, I am not sure) just to have him out of the AL. Maybe the Dodgers can give up Kershaw and Kemp and others and he can feast in LA.

Just stop the petty name calling, fellas.

"this "your team sucks, no your team sucks" stuff really has to stop. It's so freakin' lame, it makes the comments section a waste. Just stop. I beg you."

There is only one person posting that crap. And when confronted with evidence to argue his claims, he resorts to the typical "your team choked so they suck" copout line of most ignorant homers like arcthelad.

I would be Happy as Yankee Fan If Johan goes to Dodgers along side with Ex Yankee manager Joe Torre. :)

Or Johan could stay put and wait for free agency .

Why is Carlos Gomez not a centerpiece? He absolutely is a centerpiece...Remember a scouts take early in the off-season?
Gomez vs. Ellsbury: "Ellsbury is more polished, but Gomez is the better talent." And Gomez is 2 years younger than Ellsbury...Stop hating on the Mets prospects, Gomez and Martinez are damn good young outfielders, and Guerra is dynamite, albeit very young

Remember Five-tool and over hyped Alex Escobar? or Greg Jeffries..

Heheh..

"Part of it is that while the Mets have a *decent* offer on the table, I think the Red Sox have a better one. The other part is that I just don't want the Mets to get Santana because I'm a Braves fan. In my perfect world, the Twins keep him away from the Evil Empire, the Evil Empire Part II, or my team's direct competitor."

and...

"the Mets package isn’t bad, and its definitely better than the 2 draft picks the Twins would get by just letting Johan walk, but its more quantity than quality in the sense that the best potential prospects in the deal are so young and raw, you cant possibly know how they'll pan out yet as a MLB'er."

You objectivity is appreciated as there is not much of that going around. I have no problem if you like the Red Sox deal of Lester/Crisp/Lowrie/Masterson better, but to deny the Mets package is pretty good is utterly ridiculous.

Arcthelad09...Did you suit up for the Yankees last year? I'm missing why someone with no actual knowledge of the game deserves respect. I love talking baseball with Yankee fans that actually know baseball and can have constructive arguments. But when you start bringing up championships, you lose me. How does that exactly fit into what we are talking about now?

I have a feeling it will be more of nothing and the Twins will go into spring training with him. The Mets offer is not bad but the Twins have a ton of options for the back of the rotation (not a terrible need for Mulvey/Humber types)and Guerra has a high ceiling as does Gomez but both are a lot of projection...a late round pick and supplemental first rounder may yield similar value (albeit possibly further from the majors if they go with highschool talent). Not saying the mets offer is bad or their prospects suck...but without F-Mart I would continue to play poker and piss of the rest of the world and drag it out further...a bit dangerous but you may see Santana relent at the deadline as well (pitch in obscurity in August or play for a world series?)....they could get 2-3 blue chippers for him as a rental as well...since the team that got him would be getting two first round picks if he did not resign.

Ohhhh I get it... the Mets are the only team to ever have a failed prospect...

Yeah, but
1.) All prospects are a risk, and
2.) Gomez already showed flashes at AAA and in the majors, Escobar never really showed his all-world skills above AA
And Hughes is far from a sure thing as well, as is Ellsbury, or Lester, or anyone here...Hughes already had an injury last year, and otherwise was 6-6 with a 4.25 ERA, not relaly blowing anyone away, and Lester, not meaning to be evil because i actually really like lester, has already been sick....the point is, no one, or actually nothing in life (but lets stick to baseball), nothing is a sure thing, and Gomez has every right to be mentioned as a centerpiece, because he is one

nrmax, thats an awful lot of "what if's" for me to consider.

fact remains, they are still too raw to think that what you've said here is possible.

FMart is considered along the same level OF prospect as Jose Tabata, who i consider a AA player right now... both very high ceiling guys who are supposed to grow into their bodies and hit for power... neither has lived up to these expectations yet, but they are still young enough to allow them time to develop.

Gomez is incredibly tool-sy, but i watched him a lot on the Mets last year, and i just dont see that from him, not next year... swings at WAY too many bad pitches.

Guerra could be great, but again, he's at least 2-3 years away. its hard to project what a player will do for 2008 in the minors, let alone what he might be able to do for the MLB club in 2011.

like i said, this Mets package isnt bad, its just not on the same level of what the Yankees and Saux have offered because there is noone who can step in this year and the Twins know what they have.

But, what the Mets are offering is definately a better package than the 2 picks they'd have in the draft in 2009... so in that sense, it makes sense to deal him to the Mets and take the best package they can get, even though they dont know how itll pan out in the end.

Remember Five-tool and over hyped Alex Escobar? or Greg Jeffries..

Heheh..

What about Brien Taylor? By your logic, since a top Yankee pitching prospect failed, everyone after that should as well. Airtight argument. Airtight.

Alex Escobar blew his knee out. A better example might have been Ochoa. Remember Eric Duncan? Brien Taylor?

Obviously Santana would prefer to pitch in the playoffs than stay with a mediocre Twins team.

HOWEVER, why the hell would he accept a trade knowing he is a mere 3-4 months away from a limitless payday? Can you imagine how much more he'd get paid if he was a FA? The sky's the limit.

Would he be willing to give that up when he's so close to it? I would hope not.

The Mets rotation is bunch of Mercanaries only Great Aaron Heilman came from Minors.

Pedro- sign from Redsox

Maine - Trade from Orioles because Mets Owner is so sick of Kris Benso and his wife


El Duque- Former Yankee pitcher - traded from Dbacks

Odaliz Perez - Trade Nady to Pirates to get him.

Pelfrey's stinks and had 0-6 record last year. Hehe Omar Minaya who paid $6 million as signing bonus when He was selected by Mets in 2005 draft.

Meanhile The Yankees had Wang,Hughes,Joba,Kennedy, and Pettite, All Homegrown what do you say now Mets Fans?


Everyone blaming The Yankees for being Evil Empire and ruining baseball. How about Mets? Their whole starting pitching staff is full of mercanaries.. Where is the double Standard?

"Remember Five-tool and over hyped Alex Escobar? or Greg Jeffries.."

As much as it pains me to side with Arcthelad for even a second (and believe me it feels like I'm disemboweling myself here), I'm pretty certain "center piece" here is referring to both talent AND "polish." Having scouts report that a player has a high ceiling is great, but their value in a trade is determined by risk vs. reward and Gomez has a good deal more risk at this point than Ellsbury (for example).

I dont get where the dodgers come in to this, it really doesnt say they will its more like a suggestion. Well it would of course have to be centered around kemp. so kemp, and either kershaw or laroche, and then a third piece such as a preston mattingly. hell id take kemp, kershaw and mattingly, just those 3 for santana

If Mets Add Johan. Welcome to Darkside Mets !! :) Along with Redsox, Tigers, and Angels......

TurnTwo,

You are completely right about there being more risk. However, it is not inconceivable the Twins like those guys and the upside they bring.

They have done pretty well scouting players for trades and rule 5 pick-ups in the past. Maybe they really see something in Gomez and Guerra. Many others do and the Twins were interested in Gomez and Delmon Young earlier in the year. They got Young and have a chance to get Gomez as well.

"like i said, this Mets package isnt bad, its just not on the same level of what the Yankees and Saux have offered because there is noone who can step in this year and the Twins know what they have."

I just cannot agree with your assessment of the Yankee package though. Hughes is obviously more valuable than anyone in the Mets package, but Melky is one of the three worst fielder center fielders in the AL according to the fielding bible and has no pop and certainly does not have the raw tools of Gomez who is light years better with the glove right now.

What is the allure? You would find a very short list of GMs that want Melky over Gomez. Then who else is on the table? Marquez and who else?

Every single guy in the Met package is more valuable than anyone after Hughes. Throw in Kennedy, who I love, and I would reconsider, but that is not happening and all we keep hearing is Yankees interest is tepid at best at this point.

It boils down to the Red Sox and Mets seemingly at this point.

A little more on my post from above about holding out to the deadline...again dangerous but...a team like the Angels is in first place, they have a great rotation 1-5 but as we saw this past October they don't have a single guy that is a definite bet to shut-down a good offense in a short series...they decide they want to win at all costs...they get Santana and Joe Nathan for Nick Adenhart, Brandon Wood and Sean Rodriguez. They now go nto the post-season with Santana, Lackey, Escobar, Weaver and have Joe Nathan and Frank Rodriguez in the pen. While those prospects are alot to give up they have a great shot at the series and if they fall short they have four first round picks they can reload with. While people speculate whether or not Santana would waive his no-trade, I honestly believe if he has a shot to get to the world series he is going to take it over pitching for no reason for the Twins assuming they are out, which may not be the case with Santana/Liriano). Just a thought to keep in mind when considering these offers.

How are the Mets ruining baseball by signing free agents and trading for players they want? You make no sense whatsoever.

And I wasn't aware that Odalis Perez was a Met...

"Meanhile The Yankees had Wang,Hughes,Joba,Kennedy, and Pettite, All Homegrown what do you say now Mets Fans?"

Well, first I say, that you are so ignorant you almost make it an art. Second of all, I would like to say, what does that have to do with anything? Why do you just change the subject everytime somebody challenges one of the ridiculous claims you make? Odaliz Perez? Wrong guy stupid. And either way, Maine and Perez were acquired in trades but spent time and refined their skill pitching in the Mets farm system. What about Roger Clemens, Johnny Damon, Hideki Matsui, Jason Giambi, Alex Rodriguez, Bobby Abreu, Andy PEttitte, (doesnt count as homegrown anymore he left you and came back only because you gave him the most money(isnt that what a mercenary is by definition?), not becuase he loves the yankees.) Kevin Brown, Gary Sheffield, Mike Mussina, Randy Johnson. The list can go on literally forever. You are reaching here.

HOWEVER, why the hell would he accept a trade knowing he is a mere 3-4 months away from a limitless payday? Can you "imagine how much more he'd get paid if he was a FA? The sky's the limit.

Would he be willing to give that up when he's so close to it? I would hope not."

I'm saying this as strictly a rental, he would still be a UFA after going to a contender. Teams have given up a ton for 3 month rentals before and would not..not go out and get Santana for 3 months if they were in a position to win aworld series.

Well I guess if Santana drops the extension demand then he wouldn't be hurting himself by getting traded.

Soriano was traded for Alex...


I would say same thing about Mets..

Carlos Beltran, Carlos Delgado,Moises Alou, Ryan Church, Brian Schneider, Ruben Gotay, Damion Easley, Luis Castillo,and Endy Chavez all came up from trade or free agents signings from Great Omar Minaya :)

Andy Pettite spent 9 years pitching for the Yankees? So According to Mets Fans He doesn't count lol?

Then you to take out Curt Schilling from Redsox who came up from Redsox Farm system according to Mets Fan logic.

"While people speculate whether or not Santana would waive his no-trade, I honestly believe if he has a shot to get to the world series he is going to take it over pitching for no reason for the Twins assuming they are out, which may not be the case with Santana/Liriano). Just a thought to keep in mind when considering these offers."

I think he would accept a trade, but he certainly would not extend thereby lessening his value. The Angels are notoriously stingy with their prospects and all of sudden they will dish off of their studs for a three month rental?

I am not buying it. Santana's value is highest right now while he is willing to extend. After that, the offers will be decidedly lower because it would be insane to extend mid year with three to five big market teams salivating at the though of getting him.

Arcthelad, our of the Mets projected starting rotation... Pedro, Maine, Perez, El Duque, and Pelfrey/Humber/Mulvey, only one of those guys was even a free agent signing. What an idiot you are. The rest of them had no say in the matter so I would pretty much say that takes them out of the mercenary category. Do you even know what that means? Do you just make up things off the top of your head? Who has seen the movie idiocracy? Arcthelad reminds of the stupid people in that movie who insist that the gatorade like substance is the best product that there is to grow crops, even though it hasnt worked in years and has created a nationwide duststorm. They laugh at the logical idea of using water on plants, and only agree to his when Luke Wilson tells them that he can talk to plants and they prefer water. Maybe that is the approach that needs to be taken with arcthelad.

I originally thought the Red Sox package was the best, but the twins have been pretty good at picking the players they want and turning them in to major league talent (Milton, Guzman, Bonser, Liriano, A.J. to name a few). They must see something in these Mets prospects that they like and I will trust them. Also even if the Mets pitchers turn out to be only #2s or 3s, we can just trade them again for more prospects.

Melky really isnt as bad as the Mets fans are making him appear, either.

is he top 10? no, hell no.

but, he's got a strong accurate arm, plays a above average CF defensively, and is good enough to hit at the bottom of the lineup, hit about .270-.280, maybe get you 10-12 HRs, and 10-15 SBs.

Is he a pure slugger? no, but the fact is he has produced at least at at an average level at the MLB level now for 2 seasons. he'll never be the centerpiece of a MLB team, but he's proven he's a nice role player on a good team where he doesnt have to be the main guy.

"Then you to take out Curt Schilling from Redsox who came up from Redsox Farm system according to Mets Fan logic."

Or, according to a regular persons logic. Besides, they traded for Schilling, they didnt sign him as a FA. A mercenary is a guy who goes wherever the most money is. Like most of the yankee roster. Guys that are acquired in trades dont fall into this category. Are you really this hard-headed?

Whoa whoa whoa......

Eric Milton and Cristian Guzman are (or ever were) major league talent?

This is starting to get childish. There's no team out there that can point to their success by strictly homegrown talent. Trades and FA are part of baseball for a reason. So get over it!

They were for the twins, they both made all-star appearances. Once they left the twins they fell apart.

Maine, El Duque, Perez, Pedro didn't came up from Mets Farm system. They were trade or signings from Omar the great Minaya..

Please admit Nrmax88, your starting rotation is full of Mercenaries who came up from other organizations.

If Omar trade for Johan, All Mets starting five will be known as "Mercenaries" :0

Well, according to people smarter than me, Melky is one of the three worst fielding center fielders.

I don't make that stuff up. He just adds to an already bad defensive team and can't slug over .400. I am missing where he has much value besides being a league average warm body in '08 and beyond.

CoCo Crisp is roughly 50% more valuable and you find many supporters of him these days.

TurnTwo, my real issue with Melky is Yank fans trying to declare him gods gift to centerfield, hell I got into an arguement the other day where some yank fan was trying to claim Melky was better than Beltran.

Yes, Melky is average, nothing more.

Maybe to you. Trading for a guy does not involve giving that player any money, which means that they are not mercenaries. If it makes you happy to call them mercenaries, by all means, go ahead. I sometimes like to refer to my pet dog as a monkey. So, I understand your hobby of using the completely wrong term over and over again for no reason.

I think he would accept a trade, but he certainly would not extend thereby lessening his value. The Angels are notoriously stingy with their prospects and all of sudden they will dish off of their studs for a three month rental?

I am not buying it. Santana's value is highest right now while he is willing to extend. After that, the offers will be decidedly lower because it would be insane to extend mid year with three to five big market teams salivating at the though of getting him."

Just using the Angels as an example, there will likely be 8-10 teams in the heat of the playoffs. Yes that is a lot to give up for 3 months of Santana and Nathan but four first round picks would soften the blow and if you think your team is in a good position to win the world series before adding Johan Santana you do not hesitate to add him for the playoffs, completely changes the dimensions. 2-4 prospects can be replaced with four first round picks. If you make it clear that Johan is available to the 8-10 playoff teams and they have to consider what he would do for their team and what he would do for a team they are likely to have to go through...and to add a UFA like Nathan as well to your bullpen? And to receive four first round picks?

I just think that neither of the Mets of Red Sox offers (I'm a Sox fan and I'm in the camp that doesn't believe they are really interested nor am i desperate to get him) are that impressive and by waiting to the deadline and packaging him with Nathan would escalate a ton of offers...even with both as rentals. From the Twins perspective a deal like the Angels scenario I proposed, they get a left-side of the infield and would have Wood and Rodriguez to add to Morneau, Mauer, Cuddyer, Delmon Young...and Adenhart to slot behind Liriano. Go out next off-season and get a #2/3 pitcher and they are right back in the mix.

All-Star appearances does not make major league talent.

Milton's best year? A 4.32 ERA. Yikes.

He's got a career ERA of 5.01. Yes, he got worse when he left Minny, but he went from bad to horrible, not from good to bad.

Guzman's career OPS+ is 75. He had one good season in 2001 when it was 110. Above average, but not that good. He proved it was a fluke by posting a sub-80 OPS+ in each of the following 4 years.

mercenary-adj.
Motivated solely by a desire for monetary or material gain.
Hired for service in a foreign army.

One who serves or works merely for monetary gain; a hireling.


Seeing as how those descriptions of your word of the way dont accurately depict the nature that these guys were acquired, I would say that you are officially an idiot.

There needs to be a new topic so this one can hopefully die.

"My team's better!"
"Nuh-uh, mine's better!"
"Oh yeah?"
"Yeah!"

Ok. Jordan Schafer is an absolute scrub. Literally a horrible player. One of the worst outfield prospects in baseball. I wonder how long it would take you to get annoyed and comment back in a confrontational matter after seeing a rival fan bad mouth your prospects with literally not one piece of statistical evidence. You would be hardpressed to find a logical thought anywhere in the assortment of trash that arc has posted in this thread.

confrontational manner**

Mercenary -adj

- Signings from other organization thru trade or free-agent signings. A mercenary doesn't label as homegrown who came up different organization

:)

The Yankees drafted well and developed talent in the 90's. They took a hiatus and went with a different organizational philosophy. Now, they are on the enlightened path and I applaud them for that. They understand how it is necessary to grow your own players and maintain at least some sense of fiscal responsibility.

The Mets on the other hand, did not draft particularly well in the 90's nor the early part of this millennium while giving away too many first, second, and third round picks. They needed to fill in their rotation via other methods and Omar shrewdly picked up Maine and Perez. He should be applauded for that, no? I am willing to bet 29 other teams wished they picked up either one of those guys.

They have been drafting better of late and making better international free agent signings. However, I am missing what your point is? You keep bringing up obvious facts such as the Mets do not have one homegrown player in their rotation. That is relevant in what way?

Jared, I still think it would be hard for the Twins to extract multiple blue chippers mid-season.

Maybe I am underestimating some possible levels of desperation, but there is so much emphasis and value on young pitching and young players overall these days, it is hard to envision anyone giving that much up for rental no matter what his name is.

This is not exactly a perfect benchmark and you might be able to drum up examples when someone sold the farm for a chance to win (Omar sending Sizemore, Phillips, and Lee to the Indians does not count), but take a look what Beltran brought back.

Teahan? Wood? Buck?

Just not awe-inspiring and think the dynamics of baseball have change a bit more since them. Maybe some GM goes off the deep end, but most of the guys with the top tier talent are holding onto them.

Furthermore, a lot of these guys you might be looking to acquire mid-year for Santana might be playing a big role on these contending teams. A lot of players who might have been available now might be off the table later. Too many 'ifs' for them to risk holding onto him for me.

I never said that they were great players. Milton did win over 13 games three years in a row for really bad twins teams, that has to be worth something.

Guzman was only average again, but the point was that the twins have avoided some cornerstone prospects and have done all right.

even though i'm a yankees fan, i wish the Rays would just say screw it, we're all in, and send Evan Longoria and a couple minor league arms for Johan and go for it. now that would be great for the game.

Melky is not average. He is a bottom 1/3rd CF'er in just about every offensive category. Great that he can play good defense. The fact is, if Melky was playing on KC no one would know who he is or care about him.

As for the Twins, they really are in a tough position. They have to make a decision about how competitive they will be this year and next. If they feel that they can play with Cleveland and Detroit I would expect them to take the Yankee or Red Sox deal (and more likely the Red Sox Ellsbury deal). If they believe that they are a few years away, the Mets package with Gomez and F-Mart makes more sense.

Personally, I don't see them as competitive in 08. Better to load up on higher ceiling prospects and ramp up for a run in 2010.

"Jared, I still think it would be hard for the Twins to extract multiple blue chippers mid-season."

I respect your opinion but I think they could do that for Nathan and Santana. Also I personally would not consider the options now to be awe inspriring...as I mentioned Guerra/Gomez are nice prospects with high ceilings and low floors. Mulvey/Humber types are repetitive with Perkins/Slowey/Bonser/Baker type guys that they have...right now you have the Mets bidding against a tepid at best red Sox organization. If you can get a bette ridea of the playoff teams you can create a market for him, rentals yes, but that is th ebest starting pitcher and arguably the best reliever in the game for the stretch. Teams would hate to see that go their rivals, with four first round picks coming back if they don't resign they may be able to get a package greater then the Mets or whatever the Sox are actually offering, if anything.

"Mercenary -adj

- Signings from other organization thru trade or free-agent signings. A mercenary doesn't label as homegrown who came up different organization

:)"

Posting fallacies over and over again doesn't make them true. Regardless, the more you post the more it becomes apparent that you're just a silly little kid trolling and it saddens me that you've gotten any attention.

Hopefully everyone else will start to realize you're just looking for attention and no one will respond to you in the future. (or better yet Tim decides to ban you)

And before you even comment on it, I'm not a Mets fan...

"Mulvey/Humber types are repetitive with Perkins/Slowey/Bonser/Baker type guys that they have"

I would agree that they are in the same mold and a bit repetitive. Mid-to-back types. I think Slowey is better than the others, but we are splitting hairs there.

But pitching depth is never bad and maybe someone out of the group steps up. Also, Guerra and Gomez are still blue chip talents. Yes, there is still a ton of projection there, but that is why the Twins have scouts. Do they see something special? If not, they will likely pass.

That is all it boils down to. I suspect we will have an answer soon enough as to how much they like those two since they are the meat and bones of the deal.

A kid? Your calling me a kid? you don't know even me you idiot....

Ban Gfulla!!! Your the one that is trolling here..... Go Back to India with your stupid pathecic name. What hell is Gfulla means?

Okay here goes.

I've been reading this for a while it saddens me. Of fucking course a Mets fan is gonna say his prospects are are the best, same with Yanks and same with Sox.

The Yanks haven't had an offer on the table for a month now so why are you arguing about this.

I'm a Yanks fan but I'm not going to argue like some ignorant guy and just take shots at teams I hate.

Cabrera led the lead in assists from the outfield last year, so just tell me how he is below average defense that's just funny to me. He's 23 and is hitting .280, and you people say he's terrible offensively. Oh yea, forgot that players stop developing after their 2nd season, theres no improvement.

I don't know much about Lowrie and Masterson, same with the Met's prospects beyond Gomez. So I'm not going to take shots at the Met's and Sox' additional pieces like you are when you know nothing about Marquez and Tabata.

I'm sorry that as a Yankee fan, i'm represented by Archthelad, cuz he knows nothing.

Let's all stop arguing because of course we are going to rep our team and think our offer is the best.

And sox fans that say that mets and yanks offer is garbage cuz the twins haven't accepted it yet.. then why haven't the twins accepted yours. By your standards then your offer is garbage as well.

I think the Mets are gonna get Santana and I'm glad for them, they need him the most.

Later Guys

srry corshep but us twins fans already have the guy who led the league in outfield assists, and it wasnt melky, its cuddyer with 19 outfield assists on the year. Melky while not bad at his age, the only reason i wouldnt want him on the twins is because he is not the speedy leadoff guy we need, and this twins team has the offense set except for the leadoff guy, that would be the only reason id lean towards ellsbury, or maybe even gomez... pure speed

"But pitching depth is never bad and maybe someone out of the group steps up. Also, Guerra and Gomez are still blue chip talents. Yes, there is still a ton of projection there, but that is why the Twins have scouts. Do they see something special? If not, they will likely pass."

Definitely agree with you there...Baker looked pretty good in several starts near the end of last year, kind of reminds me a bit of John Maine...good-looking prospect, fizzled a bit after struggling at MLB level and is kind of pushed aside and then puts it together and kind of surprises people who forgot he was pretty well regarded in the first place. I think Humber may surprise people a bit another year removed from TJ as well.

What I was suggesting is certainly a risky proposition,especially since I am very intrigued by Guerra/Gomez...but I like to roll the dice, it will be interesting to see if BS has got the stones or if his people just plain like the Mets guys.

"A kid? Your calling me a kid? you don't know even me you idiot....

Ban Gfulla!!! Your the one that is trolling here..... Go Back to India with your stupid pathecic name. What hell is Gfulla means?"

Well, if you were older than 12, I certainly hope you would have a better grasp of English grammar.

As for Gfulla, it's a combination of my initials (GF) and four letters of a nickname i used to use on the internet. You on the other hand named yourself after a japanese video game. I applaud you for your creativity.

As for the India comment, I don't think ethnicity or how long you and your family have been in the U.S. should matter at all, but I would like to point out that my fathers family is entirely Irish and has been in North America since the mid-1800s. My mother's family on the other hand is English and French with a little bit of native america. The English and French ancestors mostly settled in North America during the 1600s while my Native American ancestors were obviously here much longer. In light of these revelations, I'm not sure where you intend for me to "return."

Not sure why i even bothered responding...oh well. I'm off to the gym now anyways.

"Cabrera led the lead in assists from the outfield last year, so just tell me how he is below average defense that's just funny to me. He's 23 and is hitting .280, and you people say he's terrible offensively. Oh yea, forgot that players stop developing after their 2nd season, theres no improvement."

Again, it is a sad day when you look at assists as the metric for fielding prowess. I thought we have all progressed a bit?

I'm assuming you have not heard about The Fielding Bible. It is actually highly regarded in regards to quantifying fielding, which is more than just assists.

Let me say this again...Melky was one of the three worst outfielders in the AL and there were a lot of bad ones.

I enjoy having conversations about baseball, but please take a few minutes and do some research.

"What I was suggesting is certainly a risky proposition, especially since I am very intrigued by Guerra/Gomez...but I like to roll the dice, it will be interesting to see if BS has got the stones or if his people just plain like the Mets guys. "

Agreed. The Mets guys are rolling the dice a bit. Nothing in Gomez's performance says star, but old fashioned scouting screams tools and upside. From what we saw of him in the bigs, his glove is legit. Really, really good. He can burn too. So I am not sold that his low end is total bust and I think he will have value. Also, his performance was not all that bad in AA 20 really. He has always been young for his league.

Hence why casual fans would never be enamored with him if they went to the The Baseball Cube and checked out his stats.

Safest bet is the Lester/Lowrie/Crisp/Masterson deal, which may or may not be on the table.

However, if they pulled that back and revised downward, I think the Mets deal is probably better than what they would get mid-year and most assuredly better than two draft picks.

I'm still high on Baker though. I think he has a lot of Maine-esque qualities as does Mulvey. Also, even if these guys are #3s, they have a ton of value these days because it allows you to not have to give out insane contracts to mediocre players.

You get to pay to keep your own talent versus paying to get league average production. I think the average win above replacement costs $4.4 million these days.

A mid rotation starter is what, three or four wins above replacement? Liriano is a stud and if someone else steps up like Slowey, they will be reaaaaallly deep 1 through 5. You don't need four aces. They'll be just fine and the run-off of starters into the bullpen will bode extremely well for them.

I JUST WANT TO BE SURE I AM GETTING THIS CORRECT. THE TWINS ARE TRADING JOHAN SANTANA? THE LEFTY STARTER? THE AL CY YOUNG WINNER IN 2004 AND 2006?

I ADMIT I HAVEN'T LOGGED ON TO MLBTRADERUMORS.COM FOR ABOUT 45 MIN BUT WHEN DID THIS COME UP?

I AM USING ALL CAPS TO EMPHASIZE MY UTTER SHOCK AND SURPRISE.

"So I am not sold that his low end is total bust and I think he will have value. Also, his performance was not all that bad in AA 20 really. He has always been young for his league."

I agree with you on that actually, I really on meant low ceiling in terms of the player being Johan Santana going the other way. If you look at Gomez's stats in the minors there quite comparable to Hanley Ramairez and they have similar builds/athleticism. As a Sox fan Hanley was a guy who we always waited for the great stat lines in the minors, but he was always young for his levels and his star was based more on projection then performance. Again, it is only tough evaluating when you're talking about Johan Santana. I see him with is speed being a useful MLB player regardless of reaching is potential just based on speed alone.

I have it all figured out.

Tim our belovid host is in tight with Bill Smith and Andy McPhail. He has convinced him to keep these trades for Santana/Bedard/Roberts going until Spring Training.

Tim gets paid every time we check his site and each time we post a message from his advertising. This thread has started at like 8 this morning and has like 105 postings.

Its all Tims fault...

Its humor people.. laugh.

themetros.

show me some proof that he's "one of the three worst ourfielders out there"

You guys are pathetic. Just because your from boston doesn't mean your offer is the best, like no other deal could even touch yours. Your picking apart cabrera and he isn't even the main part of the deal. Talk crap about Hughes.. i'de love to hear what you have to say.

Yea and send me some proof on cabrera

Here you go CorShep:

http://www.billjamesonline.net/fieldingbible/charts/leaders2-07.gif

That pic is from http://www.fieldingbible.com

According to Bill James, Melky was the SECOND worst CF in baseball last year.

see, the problem is that stats dont ever tell the whole story. so this fielding bible is good to throw in as part of analyzing a ballplayer, but the other part is watching the games.

statheads, IMO, are just too tied to numbers to simply enjoy the game, and recognize a player for who he is and what he provides to a team.

Once again, "themetros" is way off base claiming the "Safest bet is the Lester/Lowrie/Crisp/Masterson deal, which may or may not be on the table". Actually it is the worst offer because it includes Coco Crisp and not Ellsbury. If there has been anything consistant in the Santana affair, it is the Twins insistence that any deal with the Red Sox includes Ellsbury NOT Crisp as well as either Lester or Buchholz. The Twins management is already going to take heat for trading Santana! But, taking a medicore outfielder with no upside and a huge downside like Crisp in return - instead of Ellsbury - will make the Twins look both inept and weak. If the Red Sox really wanted Santana, they would have offered Ellsbury AND Lester (along with the previously mentioned Masterson and Lowrie) and the deal would have been done long ago. Personally, I think that Mr. Epstein will do this trade only if he can steal Santana - which a trade without both Lester AND Ellsbury would clearly be.

http://fantasyscope.wordpress.com/2007/11/02/2007-fielding-bible-awards-released/

That is the fielding bible awards page, which lists Melky as one of the worst outfielders last year. The Fielding Bible is worth checking out, it's very interesting.

Looking forward to the supposed death of this saga. It's starting to feel like the end of those Lord of the Ring movies... Just when you think it's got a good final shot it cuts to another scene and keeps going...

All the packages were interesting in their own ways. I don't envy Bill Smith having to make such a tough decision. Prospects are unpredictable (even Ellsbury, Hughes, and Fmart could all end up being busts.)

I wish everyone wouldn't get so venomous about trashing the other teams prospects. We should be talking about the various merits / problems with each package in regards to the needs of the twins and the evidence we have available.

I don't disagree that stats don't tell the whole story.

However, your point works both ways. A scout/GM that works solely on looks, feelings, and hustle is going to be left in the dust by people willing to do the work and understand new metrics that are created to better assess a player's performance.

agreed; its a blend of stats and physical ply that need to be considered... i dont think anyone would argue that.

If the Twins really did offer 5/$100mm then he really doesn't want to stay there. That's a massive stretch for them.

bernie, you're really missing a few key points.
1) Coco isn't as bad as you're trying to make him out to be, first of all he's got a great glove and only a few years removed from a great season with cleveland. So while he's a risky move, there's potential for him bounce back.
2) EVERY GM will only do this deal if they think they got more than they gave up, that's the entire POINT of trading. Do you really think Cashman or Minaya would make this deal if they thought they were getting screwed? A trade without Joba or Kennedy would be a steal. A trade without F-Mart would be a steal. So why the Epstein bashing?
3) And if the yanks realllly wanted this they would have added Kennedy in the deal. OR if the Mets realllly wanted this they'd have folded and offered their entire farm.

Look, the point is value. Yes, which ever team lands Santana is landing an ace but it's for 1 year if he's not extended or if he is extended it's an expensive risk because you're giving him a long term deal. This is why you're going to find the offers for Bedard or Haren to be better than for Santana.

If Omar nabs Santana without giving up F-Mart, he gets an A+++++++++++ on this deal.

I think it's going to be 7 and 140 for santana. The mets should trade what ver they have to for santana. They are in a win now mode they have a good three year window. They need a serious horse and I think this puts them in the world series.

As a Braves fan, I'd rather not see it happen of course, but I gotta know:

Hey Mets fans, is that package, plus a $125MM/5 yr deal acceptable? The prospects OR the money seems fair, but both is a HUGE pricetag, even for Johan.

Bill Smith blew this thing so badly. He had an opprotunity to get great players from the Sox or Yankees and now all he can get is crappy prospects from the Mets. They are better off holding on to him.

It's no easy decision. This is how I see it though...

As of right now, the only spot the Mets could improve on last year is Glavine's rotation spot. I honestly think that Pedro can at least give us what Glavine did, and likely more.

Sanchez is finally healthy and will be a great addition to the bullpen. Church and Schneider are upgrades both offensively and defensively.

If the Mets went out with the team they have now, I feel like they could compete, and the results would be similar to last year (the record, not the collapse).

I think the Mets getting Johan would make them the favorites to win the division, and possibly the NL.

It's definitely a steep price, but I think it's worth it, especially if we keep our top prospect.

Bill Smith blew this thing so badly. He had an opprotunity to get great players from the Sox or Yankees and now all he can get is crappy prospects from the Mets. They are better off holding on to him.

"As a Braves fan, I'd rather not see it happen of course, but I gotta know:

Hey Mets fans, is that package, plus a $125MM/5 yr deal acceptable? The prospects OR the money seems fair, but both is a HUGE pricetag, even for Johan."

Bingo. The Twins are selling one year of Santana and the chance to sign a risky contract. That is why he simply is not worth as much as Haren or Bedard.

As for the deal on the table, I would most definitely do it. Adding F-Mart would be the tipping point though.

The Twins best shot to get more back than they deserved was the Yankees trying to keep him away from the BoSox and vice versa.

That seems like it is a non-issue now and hence the weaker offers (but still good contrary to popular belief). Good times.

As a logical thinking mets fan I can say that the Guerra/Mulvey/Humber/Gomez deal is acceptable.

The mets are stating that they dont want to go past 5 years on a deal (not specifying whether that would start immediately, or if they would tack the extension on to the 13.5 mil deal he has for next year). I believe the main thinking for this is it is increasingly difficult to insure a contract for a pitcher for that length. I have heard they are willing to up the per year average to 22-25 million dollars if they can get it as a 5 year deal (they also attempted this tactic in the Zito negotiations. Thank the SF Giants for saving us from a horrible mistake).

If Omar can get Santana while still holding onto our # 1 prospect in F-mart, and our closest to ML Ready pitcher in Pelfrey, even with the 125 million dollar commitment i see it as a major coup for Omar.

I also agree that if Hughes/Kennedy or Lester/Ellsbury were included the deal would have been done long ago, but both were playing defense with the entire negotiations.

"If the Mets went out with the team they have now, I feel like they could compete, and the results would be similar to last year (the record, not the collapse)."

You sure about that? I mean, Matthews, Klapisch, and well informed fans think otherwise. I mean, the Phillies just picked up Pedro Feliz. PEDRO FELIZ! And now they are looking at Kris Benson!

How can we compete?

“Baseball officials involved in the Johan Santana talks say the Mets have the best offer on the table, as the Twins looked to honor a request by the pitcher to resolve the situation.” - Buster Olney, ESPN.com

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3220115

It's amazing how a team that supposibly has a "Crap" Farm System has managed to put togeather the best offer for Johan Santana, no? Could it just be that the Mets Farm System is much better then you've given them credit for?

Bill Smith is a fool. He obviously should have taken the Yankee deal when he had Hank drooling over his property. But he thought he could squeeze them for more and overplayed his hand. But even with Hughes and the Yanks gone, why would you take the Mets' offer? If the Sox will still give up the Lester package, it's clearly superior to what the Mets are offering up. I don't think much of Gomez, and IF Humber actually sticks in the majors, it won't be as a starter. Mulvey is only a top pitching prospect for the Mets because they don't have any -- and he hasn't even pitched in AAA yet. Guerra is just a kid. This is a really tough deal to sell to your fans. You're not even really getting anyone where you can say "This is a future star," which you could have with the Sox and Yankee deals. They are getting almost nothing in return.

The Twins won't trade Santana to the Mets without getting F. Martinez in return. It's that simple.

It's amazing how a team that supposibly has a "Crap" Farm System has managed to put togeather the best offer for Johan Santana, no?
----

It's only the best offer because the Yankees are out of it. And frankly the players still on the table for the Sox are far better than the ones being offered by the Mets. Jon Lester isn't even in the same universe of Humber and Mulvey; he's better than them by light-years.

Of course, if you listen to scouts. Carlos Gomez has the upside of "Jimmy Rollins in the Outfield" in that someone with his frame and style swing, it's only a matter of time until he adds power to his frame. Deolis Guerra features Stud upside with a 95 mph fastball and a Changeup that is reminiscent of Mr. Santana or Hamels. Kevin Mulvey is a classic 4 pitch pitcher who will out think you, think a better version of Brian Bannister, and Phil Humber still has one of the best curveballs in the game. It's not as bad a package as you're making it out to be.

"If the Mets went out with the team they have now, I feel like they could compete, and the results would be similar to last year (the record, not the collapse).

I think the Mets getting Johan would make them the favorites to win the division, and possibly the NL."

I'd love to see Mets v. Diamondbacks NLCS next year. (my buddies, largely Phillies fans, would probably lynch me for saying that...)


"You sure about that? I mean, Matthews, Klapisch, and well informed fans think otherwise. I mean, the Phillies just picked up Pedro Feliz. PEDRO FELIZ! And now they are looking at Kris Benson!"

Well, he (Feliz) WAS first among third basemen defensively last year according to the fielding bible (http://www.billjamesonline.net/fieldingbible/charts/leaders1-07.gif). Hopefully his OPS will increase a bit as well moving to more of a batters'park. I mean obviously he's not gonna reinvent the team...but the signing probably was a decent upgrade (compared to platooning dobbs/helms like they were expected). Or maybe they're planning some kooky three way platoon between the three of them... I dunno.

Feliz has value. No doubt the glove is tasty. However, you have to factor in the offensive explosion that Rowand had.

Rowand was about 4 wins more valuable according to WARP1 so they are still looking to make up those wins. Does Werth/Jenkins do it?

Swellicious on the Santana front. No F-mart!

Actually they are about even with the Werth/Jenkins platoon and Feliz when compared to Helms and Rowand. Helms had a negative value in 112 games.

No esta bien. Regardless, I fail to see how anyone in the NL appreciably improved. It is still and always has been a three team race.

That should have read 'anyone in the NL East BESIDES the Mets'.

Amazing what a bunch of crappy prospects can get. How could so many people have been so wrong? Mystifying.

1) If true, ABOUT FREAKING TIME!
2) That's a good deal for the Mets and puts them as the instant favorites in the NL East.

Wow, the Mets have just hurdled the competition; I don't think anyone (outside Philly) can say they aren't the lockstep favorites after this. Very impressive.

Phew... Done! (ish)

It can't...really...be over. Can it? After all this time? Am i finally free from my computer? Please tell me it's true! Grats Mets fans btw, assuming you're one of the ones happy with the trade :)

come on block it with a no trade clause, so this can go on for a few more months!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I for one am very happy. F-Mart and Pelfrey stay and the Mets still landed him.

I agree with Cubsin2100 though, it's Done! (ish). The six or seven year deal will get hammered out, but still one last caveat before celbrating.

Plaese just give him the money omar and...


Lets GO Baby!!!

I kinda hope it is true. My personal preference has always been for the Twins to somehow keep him. But the Mets getting him is a close second. And I say that as a Yankee fan.

In case any of you are wondering what we're going to do with all of our free time now that the saga is over, the contract negotiations should keep things hopping for a couple more days at least.

This is not going to go over well with Twins fans. It will be interesting to see if we get a little more insight into what was fact and what was fiction throughout the whole Santana saga.

Best news of the offseason for White Sox fans.

I am very relieved it's over... but the question for the Twins is still who will start in center? Are Gomez and Pridie gonna battle it out in Spring Training or will Lofton or Patterson fill the hole for the time?

What an aweful deal by the Twins. It looks like they waited too long and had to settle for this crap. Ellsbury or Hughes straight up for Santana would have been a better deal.

Hopefully all the new readers peeping this site found out it was full of knowledge and insight and stick around...but this has to be a bittersweet day for you Tim.

Go mets...woo!

And for those jumping back on the Omar bandwagon...remember, this is the same guy you were trashing prior to this move...lets not forget that so soon next time

If the Mets get Santana, Theo did his job. He made the Twins think twice about taking the Yankees offer. I'm almost certain he would've gone to the Yankees by now if the Red Sox didn't get involved and drove up the price. Thank you NY Mets for finally ending this circus!

Why would the Twins fans be upset??
He should have been traded to the Yanks or BoSox? Why would they help them win the Pennant? Thats what the Twins are trying to do!

The Mets and Phillies are going to have a nice race.

Santana,Pedro,Oliver,Maine. Thats nice rotation.

The Mets by far got the better deal, the Red Sox or Yankees would have got the better deal too if they landed Santana, but the Met's prospects are good but not as good as the Red Sox or Yankees. Still this deal isn't done yet. The Mets still have to sign Santana to a huge deal.

I'm a Phils fan so I'm not happy. At least not for the next couple years. After that, it may come back to haunt the Mets. But if they can get a title in the meantime, who cares? They can't afford not to make the trade now. If they have to suck it up and go 6 or 7 years, they have to do it. Because if they let that keep them from going through with it after agreeing to the trade, they will look really bad.

to Glanzer
you gotta believe Gomez will start in center and Humber will get every change at a rotation spot.
But to those you think this was a terrible deal, you can't get full value for Santana when you consider that any team who picks him up has to then dish out over 100 million.
But I believe the Red Sox or even previous Yankees deals would have been better for the immediate future, this deal could pay off in 3-4 years with Mulvey and Guerra.

I'm in utter shock. How could they do this deal without F-Mart or Pelvey? Maybe i'm bias but this deal doesn't look 1/2 as good as Lester/Crisp/Lowrie/Masterson.

Anyone else surprised that it was USA today of all sources that broke the news? After all this time getting constant updates mostly from LEN3 and a few others, USA today scooped everyone.


(Lol. My buddies sitting here sending me curses over aim for breaking the news to him. Lifelong Twins and Phillies fan. This was the absolute LAST thing he wanted.)

Isn't it time for a Bedard update now? ;)

Somewhat reminiscent of the Tom Seaver to the Reds trade back in the day. Except this time the Mets do the fleecing.

If this is true, as a Braves fan... This blows

lol well if this trade is true then the Mets pretty much stole Santana from the twins

Well the Mets won the East with this Trade...but I dont see this making them NL contenders...it just mucks up the waters more...

I think it can be any of these teams for NL Contenders
Mets- Johan and Maine..good offense..

Cubs- Z, Lilly and Hill but 4 question marks(theriot, Soto, Pie, Fudome)

Brewers- Sheets and Gallardo..Very Good Offense..

rockies- Good Offense, not much pitching wise

Zona- Very Good Pitching, Not much offense wise

Pads- No Offense and Great Pitching

"Amazing what a bunch of crappy prospects can get."

I know you were being sarcastic, but its true. I dont think anyone would be suprised if none of these guys turned into above-average major league players. If I were a twins fan I think I would considering abandoning the entire franchise. This is one of the most lopsided deals of the past decade.

This is an atrocious deal for the Twins... either offer from the Yanks or Red Sox is way better. The ?Bedard and Haren trades netted more than this...

And how did the Mets land the best pitcher in the game without giving up their best prospect? From a weak farm system at that?

I was impressed with USA Today being all over that one instead of Gammo or Olney.

Good stuff for them.

Wow....

A Gomez package over Ellsbury or Hughes package??

Is Brian Sabean the Twins GM now????

As a Yankee fan, I'm overjoyed. Both Cashman and Theo played it beautifully - keeping pace with each other so neither could acquire him, and then reducing the offers so all the Twins were left with was the Mets' (relative) crap.

And congratulations to the Mets, who got a steal. To get him without giving up a single sure thing is great.

why does no one realize that this basically came down to where Johan wanted to go...depending on how hard he pushed the issue..the twins could have been left with no choice but to send him to the mets

Look, you may not prefer the deal and that is fine. I can pick up what you are laying down.

But c'mon, crappy? Neither Sickels or Callis would agree with you and their job is prospects.

The Rox have not much pitching? Francis, Cook, Jimenez, Morales, Hirsh, Fuentes, and Corpas is not much? That is a ton of good young pitching. If they didn't play in Coors their staff would be easily top 10.

crappy, only relative to Hughes/Ellsbury.

I think (and many agree) that when you're trading a Santana, you need a sure thing. and this trade has none of them.

I would prefer to have Hughes alone than those 4 guys, and probably Ellsbury too.

On the bright side Philly...

"Santana grounded out to third... The ball fielded cleany by Feliz..."

Bobo, I agree about no sure thing. I would agree this has more risk, but it is not devoid of talent.

Also, I'm not sold on Ellsbury being anything but a great glove and mediocre bat. So much of his value is in BA...

I agree with you Cashman and Theo played it perfectly though. Neither wanted him and they surely did not want the other one to have him. Well done on both accounts.

So where is that Braves fan today? Or most phillies fans? Hiding like a bunch of p*ssies...Omar Minaya did a fantastic job by holding firm on his hand, and showing some real balls in the face of a lot of adversity

Congrats NY Mets Great Deal.
Good Job Trader Omar!
Now just sign him so we do not have to hear anymore about this until the free agent sweepstakes begins for CC.
:-)

I really don't think this makes the Mets the favorites in the East. If anything, I think this solidifies it as a three team race. Obviously, it makes them a lot better but the East is still three solid teams with either a lot of holes or question marks.

if johan doesnt break down this'll be the modern Babe Ruth deal

Boston wins this deal by successfully keeping Santana away from the Yanks.

Callis wouldn't think this deal is a steal? Without speaking to them, just look at BA's rankings. They have Pelfey (#3 starter) above both Guerra (#4) and Mulvey (#5). Humber didn't even crack that rotation and ranked #7 overall in a less than stellar farm system.

Speaking on Sickels, he would agree as well. Humber is the only pitcher that made his Top 50's pitchers list (16th) and Gomez ranked 42nd.

Ripwa-
While I actually do like Francis and Fuentes... I think the rest are ok..nothing special. The reason I dont think the ROckies pitching is that good is they only really did it for Sept and the Playoffs... and for them to make the playoffs they had to do something that was unheard of before and still needed a bounce here and there to get into a playoff game...cough cough tony Gwynn Jr driving in the winning runs off of Hoffman..

I think Johan is a great pick up... for the Mets and they have a pretty Deep up injury prone rotation..and I just think its such an open race for the NL that this year will be great to watch...

@zito4cyyoung; if that was the case, he probably would have taken delgado/alou alone!

@crunchy - haha, I think the Yankees won because they kept him away from the Sox.

"the Mets and they have a pretty Deep up injury prone rotation"

Whaaaaaa?!?

Seriously?

I am STUNNED by this package the Twins got. That's all they could get? Not one single prospect who is a sure thing? No way does Terry Ryan make this deal. Trading him to the Mets without getting Martinez is unbelievable. I cannot believe this offer is better than the Red Sox. Lester alone is almost as good. This simply had to be the new GM saying, "I don't want Santana in the A.L." Too bad the Cubs blew their wad on Soriano...Rich Hill + Felix Pie would be looking pretty good to the Twins right about now.

Well, it was always a three team race. It was before the deal and it is after.

I would not say the Mets are locks, but it certainly does not hurt.

A steal? No. He spoke about it in a Boston paper the other day. I implore you to check it out. A good read.

Also, the Twins traded away one year of Santana. Why is that so hard to understand he was not worth Omar's first born? Not one team involved caved to Smith's demands. I wonder why?

But I know nothing. Smith got duped.

Humber? He was the 4th player in the deal.

Sickels says Guerra is a B+ and Mulvey and Gomez are two borderline B+ players while Humber is a B-. So your claim that Sickles thinks the other two are worse is highly suspect.

"why does no one realize that this basically came down to where Johan wanted to go...depending on how hard he pushed the issue..the twins could have been left with no choice but to send him to the mets"

You're right...except you forgot to add emphasis to the word could. There was never any overt statement supporting the belief that he wanted to play for the Mets. You could absolutely be right but I doubt we'll ever know.

As a Twins fan, I am crushed. I was loving Bill Smith after the Delmon deal, and now --- man, now --- Let's just say I'm missing Terry Ryan.

Yeah, nice deal on the Mets side!

And as an Indians fan, I would like to thank the Twins for actually trading him, but not sending him to the BoSox or Yankees! Yes, Johan-Less AL now... Phew, what a relief!

Could be. I guess it depends on the way you look at it. The Yanks must think that Joba and Hughes will close the gap...while Boston probably thinks that, "hey, we won the series, it's the Yanks that need to improve." Whatever the case, it wouldn't surprise me if the Mets were the only serious bidder.

That's what the Twins get for taking forever. Let's take a look at what they could have had:

1. Phil Hughes (3X better than Mulvey)
2. Melky Cabrera (could be as good as Gomez)
3. Another good Yankees prospect

Plus, they could have gotten:
1. Jon Lester (better than Mulvey)
2. Dustin Pedroia

or

3. Jacoby Ellsbury

This is a lesson for Andy MacPhail and the Orioles organization that is playing God with the Bedard deal. You get greedy and demand everyone's top prospects, then hold out for three months, and you end up with a crappy package.

The Mets made out like bandits on this deal.

1) I'll agree here. Hughes is a stud.
2) Not one GM would choose Melky over Gomez long term.
3) Marquez was nice. But he actually ranks below Mulvey and Humber and that does not even factor in Guerra.

Pedoria was being offered? Wow. News to me. You must have the inside track!

The bottom line is, the deal was good enough because it got accepted. If that is not proof then I am not sure what is.

Good times to be Met fan.

I guess Omar found out how to replace Glavine's 200 innings and picked up the 18th pick in the 1st round from the Braves to boot.

He can call today a succesful day at the office.

Besides, why can't Yankee fans be happy they have some nice young pitchers? You are awfully concerned a move that has nothing to do with you.

Does anyone else think it might be possible that Theo saw what the Mets were offering and decided to bring down the Red Sox offer to that level? It had been reported recently that the Sox had taken Lester off the table. I wouldn't be shocked if Lester, Ellsbury, Lowrie and Masterson were all taken off the table. All those guys are better than anyone the Twins are getting in this deal.

I never thought Theo was that enthusiastic about making this deal anyway, when he saw that the best player the Mets were offering was Gomez, I just think he went in and said "Well, would you guys take this if that's what it would take?" and probably made some offer with Bowden or Oscar Tejeda or some other lower prospects. For me, this works out well because the Sox can hang onto their prospect depth and begin finding a new home for Crisp, which may be easier said than done at this point.

TheGrinch, since when was Pedroia on the table? That's the first time I've heard that.

Great... now I have to do something I hate and hope he gets hurt...

No matter what the Mets are happy, but let's not rate the Twins side of the deal until we actually find out how good these players are and if they make it to the bigs.

I agree, metros. The Yankees have a cavalcade of talented, cheap young starting pitching on the way. They have so much depth past Chamberlain, Hughes and Kennedy. Not saying anyone will be at the level of Santana, but at least one or two of these other guys should pan out to be excellent starters.

Grinch, Pedroia wasn't on the table and never was and won't be coming up in trade talks any time in the near future.

I'm going to say for the record Smith didn't do a bad job considering.
1) The Twins had no chance of resigning Santana and you can thank Polhad for that. One of the richest owners yet the stingiest. So...
2) Smith was left with 2 options, trade Santana or pocket 2 draft picks, basically the trade value was a better bet.
3) Santana's no trade clause slimmed down an already slim market
4) The price tag that Santana would require as an extension really left it down to 4 realistic teams.
5) Both the Red Sox and Yankees, didn't really NEED Santana. Yanks are content with their youth movement and the Sox already had a formidable rotation.

Let's put it this way, Twins got the best they were at any time going to get since the Yanks were never going to offer more than Hughes + Melky + B prospect and the Red Sox were never going to over more than Lester + Crisp + Masterson + Lowrie or Elssbury + Masterson + Lowrie. And ultimately the package from the Mets while riskier has a higher potential in the long run and is better than getting 2 1st round picks.

"Does anyone else think it might be possible that Theo saw what the Mets were offering and decided to bring down the Red Sox offer to that level? It had been reported recently that the Sox had taken Lester off the table. I wouldn't be shocked if Lester, Ellsbury, Lowrie and Masterson were all taken off the table. All those guys are better than anyone the Twins are getting in this deal.

I never thought Theo was that enthusiastic about making this deal anyway, when he saw that the best player the Mets were offering was Gomez, I just think he went in and said "Well, would you guys take this if that's what it would take?" and probably made some offer with Bowden or Oscar Tejeda or some other lower prospects. For me, this works out well because the Sox can hang onto their prospect depth and begin finding a new home for Crisp, which may be easier said than done at this point.

TheGrinch, since when was Pedroia on the table? That's the first time I've heard that."

TheGrinch is misinformed about Pedroia.

As for the sox prospects being better than anything offered by the Mets, Ellsbury and Lester are better. Lowrie and Masterson on the other hand aren't. Masterson isn't even necessarily able to start and certainly doesn't have a higher ceiling than any of the pitchers the Mets put up (as a starter anyways). If Lowrie's at all better, it would only be because he fit their needs a bit better (strong bat and middle infielder). He certainly has his weaknesses (poor defense and a lackluster showing overall in the AFL).

I do agree it's likely Theo decreased his offerings a bit though.


I'm actually kind of excited to see now what we can get for Crisp (and possibly Lowrie or anyone else they feel is blocked).

JakeOD21, I agree. In fact, neither the Yanks or Boston really cared -- as long as the other didn't wind up with Santana. Both teams are good enough to win the WS without Santana, so why pay an extra 25 million? As for the Mets, they're going to pay a lot of money just to be in the mix again this year. If they don't win the WS - or at least make it there, then this seems like a lot of hullabaloo over nothing. As for the what the Twins got back...yawn.

I agree the Mets needed Santana more than the Yanks or Bo Sox and got him. I'm interested to see if it ends up 6 or 7 years.

Terrible either for Yankees. Now the 2 most hated teams, Mets and Red Sox are possibly better. They stole Santana for B prospects. Terrible. I'm never going to hear the end of this from Mets fans. Damn Cashman grow some balls and make a move.

Terrible trade, I feel bad for the twins.

ITS OVER!!! ITS OVER!!! YAYY!

Mets Win NL East by Sept 1st.

you know this trade was a complete steal for the mets because their fans arent complaining about it.

"The Mets capped one of the worst collapses in baseball history, having led the National League's Eastern Division by 7 games with 17 to go, by falling Sunday to the last-place Florida Marlins, 8-1."

REPEAT!

Fantastic trade. This crap is finally over AND he's going to the NL!

This is a great day to be a White Sox fan. Thank you Mets.

Best. News. Ever.

Congrats Mets.

It is a steal not because the Mets guys suck but because the Red Sox deal was a lot better. Sickels has Lowrie and A- and Masterson a B. Also, Lester was a B+ last year. Plus, they Twins would have got Crisp, who is undervalued. He isn't a stud, obviously, but he has been a 6-win player multiple times in his past. That is pretty good for a relatively young CFer who is pretty cheap for 2 more years.

That NL East is going to be an interesting division.

As for the sox prospects being better than anything offered by the Mets, Ellsbury and Lester are better. Lowrie and Masterson on the other hand aren't. Masterson isn't even necessarily able to start and certainly doesn't have a higher ceiling than any of the pitchers the Mets put up (as a starter anyways). If Lowrie's at all better, it would only be because he fit their needs a bit better (strong bat and middle infielder). He certainly has his weaknesses (poor defense and a lackluster showing overall in the AFL).

ill disagree with what you said about materson and lowrie. masterson if he can keep his change up to progress his ultimate ceiling is a number 2 starter. having seen him pitch quite a few times his sinker is very nasty and has already been compared to by many scouts as a brandon webb type sinker. he is a ground ball pitcher which is perfect for boston. even if he doesnt fit to be a starter he projects as a dominant set up man. i mean put him behind papelbon and its not a bad thing. if he starts though and his change up keeps inproving like it has he will be a starter.

now for lowrie on the other hand in 2006 his first year in the minors he had a great start to the season before he got hurt then he struggled. in 2007 being fully healthy he hit 297 in over 300 at bats in double and hit 300 in 160 at bats for triple a. but if you wanna focus on just what he did in the afl which was under 100 at bats be my guess. at short he provides a decent glove he has a strong arm but has some throwing accuracy he needs to work on. if lugo cant hit in 2008 and provides average defense lowrie is an upgrade over him. lowrie is a patient hitter who works the count. he hits for average very well and has not home run power but extra base power which suits fenway very well. think of lowrie as a pedroia hitter but at short. if he can prove to hit 300 or around that at triple a for a long time during 2008 he will be an upgrade over lugo. living in the boston area i have seen all these guys play in person and can tell you they are very impressive. sure they have some flaws like any prospect and im not saying they are susperstars but they can be keys to winning titles for years to come and i am glad to see they will be with the sox

if i were the guys that have been winning the cy young by default in the NL, id be pretty pissed to see Santana make his way to the NL, hes going to destory that league.

Why does everyone get such a big woody over Carlos Gomez? The guy hasn't batted over .300 at any level.

Beauty part is that the Mets will be able to restock their farm system this June-- Omar has three of the top 34 picks.

Yep, it's good to be a Met fan today. First time in quite a while.

FINALLY. Okay, let's move on.

I personally would have taken Hughes/Melky over the mets offer. At least you would have gotten a dominant starter in return. And you fill the CF void.

as a twins fan, if one of these prospects doesnt turn out to be an allstar caliber player. I am going to be pissed.

Being a Philly fan, this a sad day for the NL East.

However, I think we can all agree, as do the analysts at ESPN, that the only loser of this deal out of the four teams involved (Twins, Red Sox, Yankees, Mets) are the Twins.

Not only did they get the worst package offered, they also wasted everyone's time and money which could have been spent on other FA's and other moves to bring a new youth movement to Minnesota.

Damn you Bill Smith.

"Anyone else surprised that it was USA today of all sources that broke the news? After all this time getting constant updates mostly from LEN3 and a few others, USA today scooped everyone."

Not really. Team sources leak stuff to local guys during negotiations becasue they're trying to influence the other side. Remember back at the start of the winter meetings when LEN3 reported that the Yanks had added Kennedy to their offer? Do you think he had a bad cell phone connection, or do you think that was Smith trying to scare Epstein into giving up Lester and Ellsbury in the same package?

The national outlets, OTOH, have sources in the central offices. Those are the first guys who will see the paperwork when a negotiation window is requested, for example. So I'm not surprised that it was somebody like Nightengale who got the scoop.

Tell me why would the Twins care about wasting other teams' time? They weren't going to make any other major moves.

I am a Braves fan and I am glad about this actually. The mets gave up their farm, so no really good future for them, and I think almost our whole lineup has faced Santana, and hasn't done bad. I think the one time we faced them last year , We got 2 runs and a wholoe bunch of hits, but Wickman blew it for us.

:)

Tyler Johnson, the Mets own the division for at least the 5-8 years maybe more. How could yoube happy. TERRIBLE JOB BILL SMITH, PATHETIC.

LOL Tyler Johnson it sounds like you are in denial. Having had to deal with Santana since he entered the league trust me it is not a good thing for you. Sanatana will tear up the NL unlike any other pitcher in the NL currently can. I don't care if you some of the Braves have good numbers against him, they won't soon enough. I think the Mets did really well here, sure they give up a bunch of top ten prospects but also guys that are high risk anyways.

I must add THANK YOU METS FOR GETTING JOHAN OUT OF THE NL, HERE'S HOPING MY TEAM NEVER HAS TO FACE HIM AGAIN!!!

Edit: I meant AL obviously not NL.

World Series: Mets vs Tigers/Red Sox/ Yankees/ Angels/ Indians.. look at how many good teams are in the AL. Mets are probably ranked 6th in MLB and will have an easy road the World Series.

Go Mets baby. We didn't even have to give up F-Mart either. Woot! We are still developing Maine (a young and unbelievabely talented pitcher) and know we have a Cy Young Winner to front the rotation. If Johan is as good as he's been, the NL is pretty much over. I hope your happy Tyler, cuz you should be seeing alot more of santana

Santana 2008- 21-8 2.46 Era 275+ k's -CY YOUNG no doubt

yanksin08 you are probably right, but I think the Mets still are a little thin in the SP department. They are relying on an old El Duque and hoping that Pedro can return to form for an entire season. The Diamondbacks also have a shot in my opinion with the addition of Dan Haren and the fack that Chris Young is a year older and therefore a year closer to becoming a superstar.

Mike: I've probably just been listening to too many fans of other teams badmouth them, lol. I can tell you i was a lot more excited about them a couple months ago. For Masterson though, I've never seen anything outside soxprospects project him to have a #2 ceiling (and considering the likely bias of the site I'm a bit skeptical). BA for example, seemed more convinced he'd be a set-up man or a closer if he was traded away.

As for Lowrie, i didn't mean to say he should be judged on his AFL performance alone, but more just that I'm sure it wasn't encouraging for the twins. Also, his offensive ability wouldn't be nearly as impressive if his fielding doesn't let him stay at SS.

Either way, I've never actually seen either of them live (nor would i be qualified to evaluate them even if i had) so my opinions are entirely based on scouting reports and word of mouth. I don't live in the area anymore. I managed to stop at a Pawtucket game last year on the way up to visit family but it was before Lowrie was there.

Oh $&!#. I can't believe this happened. Who would have guessed that the Twins would fleece themselves with second rate prospects?
Hats off to Omar Minaya for pulling off this fleece. Frank Wren, a response (and by response I mean equally positive game-changing move) please!

soxwin- I think there top 4 ( of course if healthy) can be dominate in the playoffs. 1.Santana 2.Pedro 3.Maine 4. O.Perez, all have possiblity of throwing 3 hit shutouts on any night. Good luck NL.

Wow, Bill Smith really overplayed his hand there. Instead of getting Phil Hughes/Melky Cabrera or Lester/Lowrie/Masterson, he got the Mets' second-rate package.

He should have pulled the trigger on either the Yanks or Red Sox offers last month.

Mets needed Santana the most of the three, so not getting Mike Pelfrey and Fernando Martinez back for Johan is unimaginable.

Mike: I've probably just been listening to too many fans of other teams badmouth them, lol. I can tell you i was a lot more excited about them a couple months ago. For Masterson though, I've never seen anything outside soxprospects project him to have a #2 ceiling (and considering the likely bias of the site I'm a bit skeptical). BA for example, seemed more convinced he'd be a set-up man or a closer if he was traded away.

masteron only projects as a big time set up guy if he cant keep developing his change up. if his change keeps on developing then he can be a very good starter. ive seen him pitch like i said quite a few times and even at a game at fenway park when they had the minor league teams play and he is very impressive live. even if he makes it to the majors this coming season for a bullpen role i bet farrell can do lots to things to make him even better. as far as lowrie goes there are conflicting reports about his defense. from what ive seen his defense is good enough at short and if just makes him even a better option if he can keep hitting the way he does. he is the type of hitter who can hit for a high average and work the count on pitcher really good. he wont hit home runs or anything but he will hit for a good average, play solid defense, and be a solid piece for any team. like i said im glad the sox can keep these guys cause they are good players and can play a big role to helping a team out for a long time. the twins needed an infielder which would of been lowrie and they could of had either lester or ellsbury along with masterson. that was such a great deal for them. i mean i cant wait to see what lester can do with the help of farrell. when lester has his stuff working he is an awesome pitcher to watch. lets not forget mike bowden or ryal kalish who could of also been had by the twins during winter meetings. kalish who is still raw has a huge upside along with bowden who can also be a solid starting pitcher. ill admit first that im a sox fan and follow and see alot of these guys live in action and all of them are impressive. i cant say much about the mets or yankees prospects but i just think the twins really blew this one. they would of been so much better off taking the hughes package of the sox package. i would of love to seen the yanks get rid of hughes cause he has the makings of being an ace. i cant wait to see future matching with hughes going up against buchholz cause both of them are going to be great pitchers. the sox got a lot of depth in their farm system i could still see them even trading any of these guys to find a big time catcher that they really need for the future

Santana? I havent really hear of him, is he good? I wonder how Omar Minaya aka worst GM in pro-sports, brought in Santana with that load of crap offer (probably the worst prospects n sports). Something has got to give now people. Or was this just a simple of example of the twins disregarding everything that would have been good for their team and trying to help out the Mets?


Seriously, I am excited to see Santana. Not thrilled, but that could change when he is dominating guys next year. Just please stay healthy dude, thats all I can ask.

I hope the mets lose. real bad.

awesome its finally over. the mets still are not going to come close to winning the series, but they might end up over .500. good for santana, but i wish he had gone to a contending team. its better that he didnt go to the sox or yanks tho cause those teams dont need him.

Anyone else surprised that somehow the Yankees fanbase has been tricked into thinking that keeping the young pitching means they are going to win next year?

I can see the argument that this deal is a win for the Red Sox as well but I am not buying the Yankees on the winning side. People have forgot it was not that the Red sox and Yankees did not need Santana it was the Mets needed him most and make no mistake about it the Yankees very much needed him if they are going to hold to this win the world series every year or bust mantra. It made sense for the yankees to say no when the price was too high but judging by the final package that got Santana Yankees fans should not be celebrating. It definitely looks like they had to completely bow out because they could not afford him (how funny/crazy is that).

If I was a Mets fan right now, I would be ecstatic. They just got the best pitcher in baseball for two likely back of the rotation starters, and two huge wild cards in Guerra and Gomez. But at the same time, I don't get why critics seem so determined to bash this offer. Gomez, while he has his hitting issues, is still blazing fast. If the guy puts it together with the bat, he's a monster. Then again, if he doesnt then he becomes Joey Gathright. Guerra has front of the rotation potential but also is very, very raw. Mulvey is a possible #3 guy, but I think a back of the rotation sort of guy may be more likely. Humber is already 25 so you almost sorta know what he is already. He'll be a solid 5 starter or something but he's nothing special. But when it comes down to it, between the first two guys mentioned, thats a ton of star potential. More than any of the other offers, which included really only one star potential player in each (Hughes, Ellsbury, Lester). At least in this deal the Twins get 2 possible stars.

But I think they dropped the ball somewhat by not getting Fernando Martinez. He's gonna be a stud with the bat one day, and yet New York still managed to hold onto him. There is almost no logical reason I can see for the Twins not getting him, unless they just preferred Gomez.

And also can someone give Omar Minaya a hand. The guy has been bashed all offseason for not getting an ace. Well, now you have one, and you didnt give up Martinez. You're probably the best team in the NL now. Minaya gets to keep his job for a decent while longer now, unless Santana pulls a Mark Prior or something.

I JUST WANT TO BE SURE I AM GETTING THIS CORRECT. THE TWINS ARE TRADING JOHAN SANTANA? THE LEFTY STARTER? THE AL CY YOUNG WINNER IN 2004 AND 2006?

I ADMIT I HAVEN'T LOGGED ON TO MLBTRADERUMORS.COM FOR ABOUT 45 MIN BUT WHEN DID THIS COME UP?

I AM USING ALL CAPS TO EMPHASIZE MY UTTER SHOCK AND SURPRISE.

Bronx,

"but i wish he had gone to a contending team"

He was on a contending team. With him and Lirano leading the rotation they were quite good. If he would have taken 5 years at 20 M Per he could have stayed on a contending team. Despite playing in the same division as the Tigers/Indians. The Twins also have a few more farm hands and by '09 I think the Twins are gonna be right there at the end of the season.

But I think he will like being around all the other latin players Omar has put together. Plus he gets to bat. The boy can actually hit so I think the Mets did well. I just hope for the Twins sake that at least 2 of the 4 prospects are able to make the big league roster some day and stick. I would hate for the Twins to get nothing.

As for all the comments on Polhad being so rich. I am actually quite tired of it. He has his personal wealth and isnt afraid to give people reasonable contracts, but why should he spend more than the team makes? That is just silly. Now that being said he is 90 I would imagine he would want 1 more before he goes but still...

"Anyone else surprised that somehow the Yankees fanbase has been tricked into thinking that keeping the young pitching means they are going to win next year?

I can see the argument that this deal is a win for the Red Sox as well but I am not buying the Yankees on the winning side."

You seem to be forgetting that the Twins did not accept the packages that the Yankees and Red Sox offered. So analyzing Santana for Hughes/Cabrera/Marquez misses the point. The Yankees would have had to give up even more than that. Plus take on the risk of a huge contract for Santana. What exactly is so wrong with Yankee fans thinking that they're better off not making the trade? After all, that's not the same thing as thinking that the Yankees couldn't use a Cy Young caliber pitcher, and it's not the same thing as thinking that the guys they didn't trade are all going to be studs right away. I'd have been very, very happy to have had Santana in pinstripes, but I would not have paid any price to make it happen.

"Mets needed Santana the most of the three, so not getting Mike Pelfrey and Fernando Martinez back for Johan is unimaginable."

That says it all. The Yanks have a pipeline of good young pitching and the Sox just won a World Series with theirs. They weren't going to budge. Beyond them, the Mets were the only team with the payroll to get it done and shipping him to the NL was the cherry on top. Smith did the best he could given the circumstances. That's my impartial analysis.

Now for my Mets fan analysis...

WOOOOOOOOHOOOOOO!!!!!!

"As for all the comments on Polhad being so rich. I am actually quite tired of it. He has his personal wealth and isnt afraid to give people reasonable contracts, but why should he spend more than the team makes?"

I'm quite tired of all the comments about the Twins being so poor. This is a franchise that has been pretty consistently in the black. They had a profit of over $15M in 2006. They get more money in revenue sharing every year. They get more money from MLBAM every year. They'll get a big revenue boost with the new ballpark in 2010. Pohlad didn't need to spend his own money to keep Santana.

In reality, this trade will probably make the Twins less profitable in the short term. They drew about 7,000 more fans per game in Santana's starts than in the rest of their home games, and with a team that's now not too likely be competitive, attendance will suffer beyond just the loss of a key drawing card.

OTOH, I really don't blame them for not wanting to go beyond a five year extension. Great as Johan is, those things tend to not work out real well with pitchers.

Posted by: SoxWin | January 29, 2008 at 06:07 PM

World Series: Mets vs Tigers/Red Sox/ Yankees/ Angels/ Indians.. look at how many good teams are in the AL. Mets are probably ranked 6th in MLB and will have an easy road the World Series
...? they have an easy road last year and what happened.

well this is a good trade for mets, good luck to the team, i still favor arazona in the nl because of haren and webb AND johnson.
im a yankees fan, at first i wanted santana bad, but not so much as time went by, he is great, really. but phil huges will be good, and to give up huges + that big contract is something i didnt want.
goood luck to the mets, IM REALLY HAPPPY RED SOX DID NOT GET HIM, they would have dominate.

Wow, the Twins really got screwed by waiting it out and being forced into accepting the Mets offer.

The Bo-Sox offer was much more dominant then this, in as much as you knew that it was a good offer. With the Mets, Twins fans are going to be hoping this turns out ok for them.

All and all, im just glad he didn't go to the Yankees, cause that just means another year will go by without them winning the WS

I am detecting some bitterness from Boston fans who think that the Twins got "fleeced" because they should have accepted the Red Sox low ball offer. Fact is, Twins were ready to trade Santana to Boston if the Red Sox would have included Ellsbury AND Lester along with two with two leaguers (Masterson and Lowrie mentioned most often). Both players are essentially spare parts for the Red Sox this season although both have a lot of upside.

Adding Santana - who would have made the Red Sox rotation the best in the AL at the cost of Ellsbury and Lester - seemed like a no brainer for the Red Sox. But, Mr. Epstein refused, which left the Twins with no alternative but say no thank you to Boston and to look elsewhere. Perhaps Lester or Ellsbury have higher ceilings than any of the four Mets coming to the Twins. The Twins obviously thought that the Mets offer of the four players was a better offer than the Red Sox offer of either Lester or Ellsbury.

If the Red Sox rotation runs into problems this season and Santana is his usual dominant self, Red Sox fans should quickly point the finger at Mr. Epstein. He had the chance to land Santana but he passed. Good decision or bad one - only time will tell!

Bill Smith's trade total

Going Out:
Johan Santana
Matt Garza
Jason Bartlett
Eduardo Morlan

Coming in
Delmon Young
Brendan Harris
Jason Pridie
Carlos Gomez
Phil Humber
Deolis Guerra
Kevin Mulvey

Wow the twins give up their Ace(the best pitcher in baseball), a pitcher with ace potential, a pitcher with very likely closer potential, and an above average starting SS.

They get back a stud Delmon Young, a possible starting 2B (Harris), a CF with only one good year in the minors(Pridie)and no major league experience. A speedy CF (gomez) who has yet to live up to his potential bat. A pitcher (guerra) who has the potential to be a number 3, and then two back of the rotation starters.

Not too good Billy Smith

"Perhaps Lester or Ellsbury have higher ceilings than any of the four Mets coming to the Twins."

Actually I would say that Gomez's ceiling is probably equal to that of Ellsbury, while Guerra has a higher ceiling than Lester. So. Yeah.

And btw I really, really hate typekey. I wish it got aids.

I have to agree with BxSquad here. I don't think that the Mets are a lock for anything, not even the NL East. Obviously I think *hope* that the Braves can compete, but you absolutely cannot count out the Phillies this year. That's just the NL East. Ok, the Central is weak (Sorry Tim, your Cubbies aren't doing it for me), but the D-Backs look really good out West. The Padres have a nasty 1-2 punch as well. How about them Rockies?

Guerra has ace potential. He isnt even 19 yet. Please stop acting like Guerra is just another crap pitcher like Humber. Guerra could be very, very special.

scribbletone, I hope you are right. It would make me feel oh so much better.

God bless the Mets. As a Jays fan I am happy that Santana is not in the AL. Good thing the Mets signed him because if not, the Red Sox or Yankees would be a lot tougher than usual. I send my thanks to the Mets. God Bless

Its just kind of sad, it sure seems like we are getting alot of could bes for sure things, i just think the twins should've gotten a proven player in return

Kentonpieper- I agree that they probably didnt get as much for Santana as they would have liked, but you also have to look at it from a monetary perspective as well.

Sure you can say they traded Santana/ Garza for Young etc, but you also have to bear in mind its like the Twins also get 100 mil over 5 years to play around with. Santana was leaving, if anything, compare what he was traded for with the people they would have drafted with the picks they would get when he leaves for FA. He was worthless this year, as they will not contend.

"I just think the twins should've gotten a proven player in return"

The best proven player they had a chance of getting in return was Crisp. The reason the Twins targeted more "could-be" young players is because they're under team control for a long time at an incredibly cheap price. The Twins dealt Santana because they couldn't afford him. If they wanted more established players, then they would have to pony up money to pay them, eliminating the whole point of the deal in the first place.

Very happy with this trade, as a Sox fan that is. No santana on the yankees is all I really wanted.

Plus I hate the braves

good point cubsin, i guess i understand if the redsox pulled the offer off the table, otherwise i have no idea why he would accept this one over the lester or ellsbury trade.

It's a moot point since it seems the only legit offer on the table was from the Mets.

But either package from NYY/Bos trumped this one.

Guerra is hardly a stud by the way...

Oh yah, I definitely agree Kenton... I think the Lester or Ellsbury packages were much better.

The mets must of realized the Yanks/ Red Sox were backing off and that they were one of the few teams who could actually sign Johan to a contract extension, clearly they offered a package that was better than the picks the twins would get, but still not on par with Santana's value. The mets had great leverage, excellent trade for the mets, tough luck being a twins fan

"I am detecting some bitterness from Boston fans who think that the Twins got "fleeced" because they should have accepted the Red Sox low ball offer. Fact is, Twins were ready to trade Santana to Boston if the Red Sox would have included Ellsbury AND Lester along with two with two leaguers (Masterson and Lowrie mentioned most often). Both players are essentially spare parts for the Red Sox this season although both have a lot of upside.

Adding Santana - who would have made the Red Sox rotation the best in the AL at the cost of Ellsbury and Lester - seemed like a no brainer for the Red Sox. But, Mr. Epstein refused, which left the Twins with no alternative but say no thank you to Boston and to look elsewhere. Perhaps Lester or Ellsbury have higher ceilings than any of the four Mets coming to the Twins. The Twins obviously thought that the Mets offer of the four players was a better offer than the Red Sox offer of either Lester or Ellsbury.

If the Red Sox rotation runs into problems this season and Santana is his usual dominant self, Red Sox fans should quickly point the finger at Mr. Epstein. He had the chance to land Santana but he passed. Good decision or bad one - only time will tell"


I am also detecting something, but I think it's simply an idiot with an opinion.

Santana gets traded for this less than thrilling mets package and you're trying to say Sox fans should be upset at Theo for not dealing Lester/Ellsbury/Lowrie/Masterson??

Based on where these respective prospects are in any top 100 the sox would have been massively overpaying

MASSIVELY

Please skip the name calling GoBoSox. Insults demean the person who uses them, not the one who is the target.

The key word is "prospects" - none of the four Red Sox mentioned has proven that they are bona fide major league players. Ellsbury and Lester are certainly high ceiling prospects, Lowrie and Masterson are less so. Santana is quite arguably one of the best three starting pitchers in the game! It's impossible to overpay for a dominant starting pitcher if all a team has to do is surrender four players that they do not need this season. More so if that team - the Red Sox - have a plethora of prospects who would remain and, are absolutely committed to winning a World Series this year and next.

"You seem to be forgetting that the Twins did not accept the packages that the Yankees and Red Sox offered."

I never mentioned the Red Sox package and it certainly seemed like the Yankees may not have even made an offer since they pulled Hughes back.

"So analyzing Santana for Hughes/Cabrera/Marquez misses the point. The Yankees would have had to give up even more than that."

It does miss the point but not in the way you suggest. If common sense prevails the only offer the Yankees had to give up more than was the one the Twins accepted from the Mets (this is a big part of my post you possibly did not understand?).

"What exactly is so wrong with Yankee fans thinking that they're better off not making the trade?"

Nothing. The contract concern is a viable drawback. All I am saying is that if the Yankees wanted to win the world series next year then they needed Santana.

Bottom line: You cannot tell me that the Yankees could not have matched the Mets offer without Hughes or Chamberlain (and there is a decent case Kennedy might even could have been salvaged). They could have kept the young pitching and still got him (too many yankee fans are leaning on this logic as the reason it was good for them not to get Santana). So the Yankees actually could not afford a player they could really use. That seems to be a pretty interesting development to me. Does the Yankee fanbase really understand that Hughes and Chamberlain are going to be capped around 150 innings next year? I am not saying it was not smart for the yankees but saying it shows an interesting shift in philosophy for the organization that I think might be drawing some bronx cheers as the team fades with Igawa as the number 4 down the stretch (Yikes. and that is only if the others stay healthy)

"The Twins won't trade Santana to the Mets without getting F. Martinez in return. It's that simple. "

Ouch.

If common sense prevails the only offer the Yankees had to give up more than was the one the Twins accepted from the Mets (this is a big part of my post you possibly did not understand?).

If I didn't understand it, it's probably because it wasn't in there. Look, my point is that we tend to make all sorts of assumptions without actually having a clue about how these things really play out. It sounds like you're assuming that Cashman could have swooped back in at the last minute with a package that didn't include any of the players previously mentioned, as long as it was marginally better than the Mets' offer. While that may seem like a plausible argument with the benefit of hindsight, I'm just not sure how realistic that kind of scenario is.

"Does the Yankee fanbase really understand that Hughes and Chamberlain are going to be capped around 150 innings next year?"

This has been all over the NY papers all winter. Although I'm thinking Chamberlain will be kept well under 150 and Hughes will be allowed to go closer to 170. But the flip side of that issue is that it makes Kennedy harder to give up. He doesn't have the upside of the other two, but he's physically ready to pitch a full season in 2008. Even with Santana, the Yankees were likely to have needed all three of the kids.

Igawa is about ninth or tenth on the Yankees' starting pitcher depth chart right now. Even if Mussina is done and Pettitte and Wang miss some time, it would take three or four more guys getting hurt or sucking before he'd be taking a regular turn. Throwing that kind of comment into your post makes me less interested in continuing to make the effort to have a reasoned discussion.

"I know you were being sarcastic, but its true. I dont think anyone would be suprised if none of these guys turned into above-average major league players. If I were a twins fan I think I would considering abandoning the entire franchise. This is one of the most lopsided deals of the past decade."

And look who did the "fleecing". The worst GM in baseball. You cant backpedal quick enough right now themfightnwords. You are like Mo Vaughn trying to catch a popup. All you have done is bash Omar and talk about how awful the Mets system is for going on 2 or 3 months now. You must feel like a real moron now that this combination landed them the best pitcher in baseball. I am waiting for your theory on how Bill Smith had a secret agreement with Omar or something. You gota give some credit somewhere. Either to the Mets prospects, or to Minaya, because one way or another he got his man. And you can blame it on Smith for making an awful deal, but if that is the case then he was manipulated by Minaya into taking his "garbage".

"crappy, only relative to Hughes/Ellsbury.

I think (and many agree) that when you're trading a Santana, you need a sure thing. and this trade has none of them.

I would prefer to have Hughes alone than those 4 guys, and probably Ellsbury too."

Ugh. I expect better from you Bobo. I agree, Hughes is probably more desirable at this point , but Ellsbury? I dont think so. Ellsbury seems like a solid player, but he doesnt even have close to the upside of Gomez. Guerra also has tons of talent. You can aruge Mulvey wont help them that much, and Humber can still go either way at this point. I think Ellsbury is a nice player but WAY overated in these trade talks. At the worst you know that Gomez can give you elite defense in CF and an explosive base stealer. If he hits, he can be a monster.

I am not sure that I would take Hughes alone over all 4 of the prospects the Twins got, but I certainly wouldnt have traded Hughes is I was the Yankees, so I agree they made the right move there.

"While that may seem like a plausible argument with the benefit of hindsight, I'm just not sure how realistic that kind of scenario is."

Uh ... what. So now the Twins do not want the best available package? It is not unlike everyone had not heard the exact players the Mets were offering and the fact they were in the lead (if we knew it the yankees had to know it).

"Even with Santana, the Yankees were likely to have needed all three of the kids."

This does not make sense because Santana would be able to take the spot of any one of them if he came in. If it was kennedy he would be able to be the pitcher capable of throwing a whole season (something I am not entirely buying into with Kennedy especially if they make the playoffs).

The Igawa shot is a lowblow but maybe not as unlikely as you want to think. You have Wang, Mussina and Pettitte plus the three young guys (two of which will have limited innings) so who is your next in line that is up to the yankees standard?

Throw out the other stuff my question is do you think not matching a price that everyone seems to think is a great deal and would have cost you at most one of your young pitchers and would have netted you one of if not the best pitcher in baseball makes the team more or less likely to win immediately?

"So now the Twins do not want the best available package?"

Are you serious? Look, those BOS/NYY packages were available in December. They were not available yesterday. Isn't that much obvious?

"...who is your next in line that is up to the yankees standard?"

It's not about some hypothetical standard. It's about being better than Igawa. Rasner and Karstens will get starts ahead of Igawa. Probably Ohlendorf and Wright too, and maybe even Humberto Sanchez. Unless he suddenly makes a dramatic improvement in his game, Igawa will be taking a regular turn in the Scranton Yankees rotation for most if not all of 2008.

A couple of other things about the kids: I didn't say that Kennedy was going to be starting a playoff game; I said that he's far enough along in his development to pitch in the rotation all year. He threw 165 innings in 2007, so he's not going to have an innings cap in 2008. Hughes and Chamberlain will be restricted, but so what? Between the three of them, they more than fill two rotation spots. Nobody is counting on 600 all-star caliber innings out of them, but some people are arguing that they can't possibly give 450 league-average innings.

"my question is do you think not matching a price that everyone seems to think is a great deal and would have cost you at most one of your young pitchers and would have netted you one of if not the best pitcher in baseball makes the team more or less likely to win immediately?"

Even though Santana is a five or six win player, the trade that the Yankees offered back in December would have been only a one or two win upgrade. Of course, Santana fronting your rotation significantly improves your chances in the playoffs. Unfortunately for the Yankees, he would not have guaranteed getting there in the first place. Maybe this is just too hard for you to wrap your head around, but what I'm doing here is acknowledging Santana's immense value while at the same time taking a longer and broader view of the implications of trading for him.

But again, you're really missing my main point. If the question is should the Yankees have traded for Santana if all it would have taken was Jose Tabata and three AA pitchers, then of course the answer is a resounding yes. So our only real disagreement is over the idea that all the Yankees had to do was match the Mets' offer. There's just no indication that this is true. What we're hearing is that the Yankees pulled Hughes out of their package, which was probably smart. The Red Sox were also reducing their offers. So now you've got Smith finally realizing that he overplayed his hand back in December and has put himself in a real bind. He's confronted with the choice of taking less from NYY or BOS than what they'd previously offered, or going in a different direction with the benefit of at least getting Santana out of the AL. You act like this was Cashman's decision alone, when the reality is that it was Smith's. If you think Smith is getting ripped now, can you imagine what it would be like if he'd taken a Yankee package without Hughes or a Red Sox package without Lester or Ellsbury?

Or to put it more directly, I'm not saying that matching the Mets' offer would have been a bad option for the Yankees. I'm saying that I don't think they ever had the option of just matching the Mets' offer.

Oh, and TypeKey sucks.

" Ellsbury seems like a solid player, but he doesnt even have close to the upside of Gomez. Guerra also has tons of talent. You can aruge Mulvey wont help them that much, and Humber can still go either way at this point. I think Ellsbury is a nice player but WAY overated in these trade talks. At the worst you know that Gomez can give you elite defense in CF and an explosive base stealer. If he hits, he can be a monster."

The extent to which this argument is illogical is astounding. You proclaim Gomez to have higher potential because of his ability to play great defense and his explosive speed? if you pulled your head out of your a$$ you would know that Ellsbury is also a terrific defensive centerfielder with UNBELIEVABLE speed. He has already shown an ability to be a good hitter, so to even suggest that Gomez will be a better player than Ellsbury is a true reflection of your ignorance. Also, I am not going to proclaim Minaya as anything other than a horrible gm and these prospects anything other than garbage. Smith over-played his hand and probably became obsessed with sending Santana to the NL, which is retarded in influencing a rebuilding franchise. There were (consensus) superior offers on the table by the Red Sox and Yankees and he rejected them. Minaya is a terrible gm who made ONE good move because another gm (Smith) is even dumber.

I am just glad it's over. Even without Santana, the Red Sox still have the American league's best starting rotation.

Tis true about Ellisbury's speed, I believe it was even mentioned last year that he had some ridiculous time to first base...and lets not forget the .353 w/ 9sb & 0cs he hit in 33 games after being called up nor the .363 and 949 0ps he put up in the Worldseries...the worldseries ...as of right now Ellisbury is in no way overrated and he's a better prospect than Gomez.

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