Johan Santana Traded To Mets

again... just do the deal so we can get some fresh rumors. im gettin tired of this, bedard, and roberts and nothing else...

sorry for terrible grammar. still way to early. you get what i mean though i hope haha.

jersey i was going to tell him something like that, but its not even worth it. I feel like I have been defending the Mets prospects for months. One thing that will be nice about the Mets getting santana is the Omar bashers and Mets prospect bashers will have to give somewhere. How does a crappy GM get the best pitcher in baseball using a system full of scrubs?

I think that Johan should have sold himself to a TV station for the winter. Did any of you see the Truman show? It could be the Johan Show. Camera's just following him 24 hours a day 7 days a week so we can have nonstop access to exactly what he is doing every minute of the day. If he starts wacking it with the right arm, I might believe some of the rumors about his throwing arm :).

Seriously, imagine how many people would watch something like that? Its amazing how many people want to know what has happened in the last 10 minutes and check back in100's of times a day to look for updated news.

And in related news nothing has changed.

Yeah, thats what everybody says but they all still come here everyday and talk about how much they dont care.

We are all a little guilty of that. I am as tired of it as anybody, and as is well known here, dont really want Santana, but I cant pretend that it does not still interest me. There are probably more then a few annoyed GM's of other teams not even involved in Santana who have their own business to attend to, but are being slowed down because everybody wants to see what happens with Bedard and Johan before the smaller pieces start moving around.

The Mets offer is garbage. If the Twins wanted it this deal would have been done by now. They want the Yankees prospects and pushing stories that say they would take the Mets crap may make the Yanks come back and talk.

No one believes the Mets will get him for 2 long relievers, an OF'er who cannot hit and an 18 yr old Class A pitcher who doesnt have an off speed pitch.

Deolis Guerra supposedly has a deadly changeup. Isnt that offspeed?

I can play that game too. The Twins obviously dont want the Yankees package.

They dont want a young and unproven, not to mention injury prone Phil Hughes, who has yet to prove anything.

They also dont want Melky, pretty much the worst starting CF in all of baseball. And why would they want scrubs like Marquez and Kennedy when they have much better options then that internally?

"No one believes the Mets will get him for 2 long relievers, an OF'er who cannot hit and an 18 yr old Class A pitcher who doesnt have an off speed pitch."

And by the way, lots and lots of people do believe that package will get it done.

In other news, Josh is an MLB scout.

Educate yourself before you get in this discussion.

I wasn't aware that the Mets were offering long relievers in the deal. What I've read is that Mulvey/Humber project to be #3 pitchers at best, while Pelfrey has the potential to be a #2.

An OF'er who cannot hit... I assume you're talking about Carlos Gomez. You seem like the ignorant type that would focus solely on his major league numbers from last season. However, the only reason he got called up was because of the injuries that decimated the Mets OF. He never should have been called up in the first place.

As far as Guerra goes... I don't know where you even heard that. Do you have a source, or do you just make stuff up? Regardless, he's an 18 year old that put up a 1.17 WHIP and a 4.01 ERA in Hi-A ball. 18 years old. He should be in his senior year of High School right now.

To say the Mets offer is garbage is just 100% ignorance.

Supposedly the Twins asked teams for their "Last, best offer" yesterday.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3220115

So, pretty much, the Twins will decide today whether or not they are going to make a decision today?

It's done, Santana is a Met....Red Sox will never pay the money, AND the prospects, if the Yankees aren't willing to...done deal, I bet it's already agreed to, and Omar is working with Johan on an extension

Arcthelad. Good stuff buddy. By the way, this is me being sarcastic.

"Are you going to tell me that Tabata is better than F-Mart?"

Yes, I would be willing to bet he will tell you that shortly.

I HATE THE YANKEES GO AWAY ARCTHELAD GO AWAY YOUR TEAM SUCKS

i think the fact that this has dragged out for so long has gotten to most of our heads.

in reality, every fan of the yankees is going to sell IPK, Melky, Marquez as better than what the Mets are offering, even without Hughes in the deal, because IPK and Melky specifically are MLB ready right now.

the mets fans are going to say that Gomez is better than Melky, and Mulvey and Guerra are as good as any of the Yankees pitchers.

and Red Sox fans are going to argue that their package of prospects, even without Bucholtz, is the best.

we are all fans trying to convince each other that our specific team's package is better than or as good as another team's, mainly because we all want Johan on our team in some way.

this just isnt going to happen...

OK great... Yankees are god's gift to the world. We get it.

How about arguing some of the other points that were brought up?

In that case The Yankees should add Marquez in deal for Santana. He's sinker ball pitcher like Pelfrey who throws mid-90's fast ball and former first round pick which Yankees got for losing Fat and Slob David Wells.

nrmax, thanks, that's the best scouting report I've seen on him. So I'll revise my statement, if the deal is Gomez, Martinez, Pelfry, and 2 pitching prospects then the Mets pacackage is superior. Minus Gomez or Martinez and it's lacking.

TurnTwo, actually I'm a Red Sox fan and I seriously doubt the Red Sox have the best package, I'm betting the Sox are offering just enough to make the Yanks shy away.

Arc, once again, the fact that he's a former first round pick means jack.

i think start wearing purple has it.

Mets are most in need of Johan, but dont have the centerpiece. they are in the drivers seat as long as the Yankees refuse to part with Hughes.

the Sox prob have the next best package, because their two packages have MLB ready talent as a centerpiece. However, they are just as wary as the Yankees about giving up both the talent and the contract.

the Mets package isnt bad, and its definately better than the 2 draft picks the Twins would get by just letting Johan walk, but its more quantity than quality in the sense that the best potential prospects in the deal are so young and raw, you cant possibly know how they'll pan out yet as a MLB'er.

in the end, all things considered, i think the Twins would rather send Johan to the NL and take a package of possibles than trade him within the AL for packages that dont include Hughes or Ellsbury AND Lester.

Turntwo, but that can also work to the Twins advantage (getting young and raw players like Guerra, Gomez, Nando etc.). It could obviously work against them, but thats the only side people talk about. Lets say Gomez starts off at AAA and is hitting .300 and has 15 HR's and 35 SB through 300 at bats. And what if MArtinez is 100 percent and is mashing AA pitching to a .330/.400/.500 line? And what if Guerra takes a big step up in his development and ends the season dominating in AA at 19 years old. These guys could flame out, but it is also possible that this trade can be a Matt Kemp, Chadd Billingsley quality offer a few months from now if these guys have strong seasons.

"Mets Fans – Read above and substitute Giants for Yankees. Mets fans are cocky for no good reason. Every 7 or 8 years they catch lightning in a bottle, but for the most part they are all talk, and no results."

Yea, because Mets fans are the only fans who talk. Lets be real. You act as if Yankee fans have more of a right to talk before a given season because of their history. Its not like you helped them win a damn thing. I would be willing to be the only reason you are a Yankee fan is either A) you picked it up at school to fit in better, or B) Becuase your daddy was a yankee fan so you were born into it. Its not like your special because your a yankee fan. Its not like the fans can have a say on the results anyway. Your posts are pretty much all talk, no results. All you do is spout your opinions and personal bias' and go on the devensive when you get called out for being the dolt that you are. And you still havent even given one piece of statistical evidence to even begin to support your case. Because you dont really have one.

"this "your team sucks, no your team sucks" stuff really has to stop. It's so freakin' lame, it makes the comments section a waste. Just stop. I beg you."

There is only one person posting that crap. And when confronted with evidence to argue his claims, he resorts to the typical "your team choked so they suck" copout line of most ignorant homers like arcthelad.

Why is Carlos Gomez not a centerpiece? He absolutely is a centerpiece...Remember a scouts take early in the off-season?
Gomez vs. Ellsbury: "Ellsbury is more polished, but Gomez is the better talent." And Gomez is 2 years younger than Ellsbury...Stop hating on the Mets prospects, Gomez and Martinez are damn good young outfielders, and Guerra is dynamite, albeit very young

Ohhhh I get it... the Mets are the only team to ever have a failed prospect...

"Part of it is that while the Mets have a *decent* offer on the table, I think the Red Sox have a better one. The other part is that I just don't want the Mets to get Santana because I'm a Braves fan. In my perfect world, the Twins keep him away from the Evil Empire, the Evil Empire Part II, or my team's direct competitor."

and...

"the Mets package isn’t bad, and its definitely better than the 2 draft picks the Twins would get by just letting Johan walk, but its more quantity than quality in the sense that the best potential prospects in the deal are so young and raw, you cant possibly know how they'll pan out yet as a MLB'er."

You objectivity is appreciated as there is not much of that going around. I have no problem if you like the Red Sox deal of Lester/Crisp/Lowrie/Masterson better, but to deny the Mets package is pretty good is utterly ridiculous.

Arcthelad09...Did you suit up for the Yankees last year? I'm missing why someone with no actual knowledge of the game deserves respect. I love talking baseball with Yankee fans that actually know baseball and can have constructive arguments. But when you start bringing up championships, you lose me. How does that exactly fit into what we are talking about now?

Remember Five-tool and over hyped Alex Escobar? or Greg Jeffries..

Heheh..

What about Brien Taylor? By your logic, since a top Yankee pitching prospect failed, everyone after that should as well. Airtight argument. Airtight.

nrmax, thats an awful lot of "what if's" for me to consider.

fact remains, they are still too raw to think that what you've said here is possible.

FMart is considered along the same level OF prospect as Jose Tabata, who i consider a AA player right now... both very high ceiling guys who are supposed to grow into their bodies and hit for power... neither has lived up to these expectations yet, but they are still young enough to allow them time to develop.

Gomez is incredibly tool-sy, but i watched him a lot on the Mets last year, and i just dont see that from him, not next year... swings at WAY too many bad pitches.

Guerra could be great, but again, he's at least 2-3 years away. its hard to project what a player will do for 2008 in the minors, let alone what he might be able to do for the MLB club in 2011.

like i said, this Mets package isnt bad, its just not on the same level of what the Yankees and Saux have offered because there is noone who can step in this year and the Twins know what they have.

But, what the Mets are offering is definately a better package than the 2 picks they'd have in the draft in 2009... so in that sense, it makes sense to deal him to the Mets and take the best package they can get, even though they dont know how itll pan out in the end.

"Remember Five-tool and over hyped Alex Escobar? or Greg Jeffries.."

As much as it pains me to side with Arcthelad for even a second (and believe me it feels like I'm disemboweling myself here), I'm pretty certain "center piece" here is referring to both talent AND "polish." Having scouts report that a player has a high ceiling is great, but their value in a trade is determined by risk vs. reward and Gomez has a good deal more risk at this point than Ellsbury (for example).

I dont get where the dodgers come in to this, it really doesnt say they will its more like a suggestion. Well it would of course have to be centered around kemp. so kemp, and either kershaw or laroche, and then a third piece such as a preston mattingly. hell id take kemp, kershaw and mattingly, just those 3 for santana

TurnTwo,

You are completely right about there being more risk. However, it is not inconceivable the Twins like those guys and the upside they bring.

They have done pretty well scouting players for trades and rule 5 pick-ups in the past. Maybe they really see something in Gomez and Guerra. Many others do and the Twins were interested in Gomez and Delmon Young earlier in the year. They got Young and have a chance to get Gomez as well.

"like i said, this Mets package isnt bad, its just not on the same level of what the Yankees and Saux have offered because there is noone who can step in this year and the Twins know what they have."

I just cannot agree with your assessment of the Yankee package though. Hughes is obviously more valuable than anyone in the Mets package, but Melky is one of the three worst fielder center fielders in the AL according to the fielding bible and has no pop and certainly does not have the raw tools of Gomez who is light years better with the glove right now.

What is the allure? You would find a very short list of GMs that want Melky over Gomez. Then who else is on the table? Marquez and who else?

Every single guy in the Met package is more valuable than anyone after Hughes. Throw in Kennedy, who I love, and I would reconsider, but that is not happening and all we keep hearing is Yankees interest is tepid at best at this point.

It boils down to the Red Sox and Mets seemingly at this point.

How are the Mets ruining baseball by signing free agents and trading for players they want? You make no sense whatsoever.

And I wasn't aware that Odalis Perez was a Met...

HOWEVER, why the hell would he accept a trade knowing he is a mere 3-4 months away from a limitless payday? Can you "imagine how much more he'd get paid if he was a FA? The sky's the limit.

Would he be willing to give that up when he's so close to it? I would hope not."

I'm saying this as strictly a rental, he would still be a UFA after going to a contender. Teams have given up a ton for 3 month rentals before and would not..not go out and get Santana for 3 months if they were in a position to win aworld series.

Well I guess if Santana drops the extension demand then he wouldn't be hurting himself by getting traded.

"While people speculate whether or not Santana would waive his no-trade, I honestly believe if he has a shot to get to the world series he is going to take it over pitching for no reason for the Twins assuming they are out, which may not be the case with Santana/Liriano). Just a thought to keep in mind when considering these offers."

I think he would accept a trade, but he certainly would not extend thereby lessening his value. The Angels are notoriously stingy with their prospects and all of sudden they will dish off of their studs for a three month rental?

I am not buying it. Santana's value is highest right now while he is willing to extend. After that, the offers will be decidedly lower because it would be insane to extend mid year with three to five big market teams salivating at the though of getting him.

I originally thought the Red Sox package was the best, but the twins have been pretty good at picking the players they want and turning them in to major league talent (Milton, Guzman, Bonser, Liriano, A.J. to name a few). They must see something in these Mets prospects that they like and I will trust them. Also even if the Mets pitchers turn out to be only #2s or 3s, we can just trade them again for more prospects.

"Then you to take out Curt Schilling from Redsox who came up from Redsox Farm system according to Mets Fan logic."

Or, according to a regular persons logic. Besides, they traded for Schilling, they didnt sign him as a FA. A mercenary is a guy who goes wherever the most money is. Like most of the yankee roster. Guys that are acquired in trades dont fall into this category. Are you really this hard-headed?

This is starting to get childish. There's no team out there that can point to their success by strictly homegrown talent. Trades and FA are part of baseball for a reason. So get over it!

Maine, El Duque, Perez, Pedro didn't came up from Mets Farm system. They were trade or signings from Omar the great Minaya..

Please admit Nrmax88, your starting rotation is full of Mercenaries who came up from other organizations.

If Omar trade for Johan, All Mets starting five will be known as "Mercenaries" :0

TurnTwo, my real issue with Melky is Yank fans trying to declare him gods gift to centerfield, hell I got into an arguement the other day where some yank fan was trying to claim Melky was better than Beltran.

Yes, Melky is average, nothing more.

I think he would accept a trade, but he certainly would not extend thereby lessening his value. The Angels are notoriously stingy with their prospects and all of sudden they will dish off of their studs for a three month rental?

I am not buying it. Santana's value is highest right now while he is willing to extend. After that, the offers will be decidedly lower because it would be insane to extend mid year with three to five big market teams salivating at the though of getting him."

Just using the Angels as an example, there will likely be 8-10 teams in the heat of the playoffs. Yes that is a lot to give up for 3 months of Santana and Nathan but four first round picks would soften the blow and if you think your team is in a good position to win the world series before adding Johan Santana you do not hesitate to add him for the playoffs, completely changes the dimensions. 2-4 prospects can be replaced with four first round picks. If you make it clear that Johan is available to the 8-10 playoff teams and they have to consider what he would do for their team and what he would do for a team they are likely to have to go through...and to add a UFA like Nathan as well to your bullpen? And to receive four first round picks?

I just think that neither of the Mets of Red Sox offers (I'm a Sox fan and I'm in the camp that doesn't believe they are really interested nor am i desperate to get him) are that impressive and by waiting to the deadline and packaging him with Nathan would escalate a ton of offers...even with both as rentals. From the Twins perspective a deal like the Angels scenario I proposed, they get a left-side of the infield and would have Wood and Rodriguez to add to Morneau, Mauer, Cuddyer, Delmon Young...and Adenhart to slot behind Liriano. Go out next off-season and get a #2/3 pitcher and they are right back in the mix.

mercenary-adj.
Motivated solely by a desire for monetary or material gain.
Hired for service in a foreign army.

One who serves or works merely for monetary gain; a hireling.

Seeing as how those descriptions of your word of the way dont accurately depict the nature that these guys were acquired, I would say that you are officially an idiot.

Ok. Jordan Schafer is an absolute scrub. Literally a horrible player. One of the worst outfield prospects in baseball. I wonder how long it would take you to get annoyed and comment back in a confrontational matter after seeing a rival fan bad mouth your prospects with literally not one piece of statistical evidence. You would be hardpressed to find a logical thought anywhere in the assortment of trash that arc has posted in this thread.

Mercenary -adj

- Signings from other organization thru trade or free-agent signings. A mercenary doesn't label as homegrown who came up different organization

:)

I never said that they were great players. Milton did win over 13 games three years in a row for really bad twins teams, that has to be worth something.

Guzman was only average again, but the point was that the twins have avoided some cornerstone prospects and have done all right.

Melky is not average. He is a bottom 1/3rd CF'er in just about every offensive category. Great that he can play good defense. The fact is, if Melky was playing on KC no one would know who he is or care about him.

As for the Twins, they really are in a tough position. They have to make a decision about how competitive they will be this year and next. If they feel that they can play with Cleveland and Detroit I would expect them to take the Yankee or Red Sox deal (and more likely the Red Sox Ellsbury deal). If they believe that they are a few years away, the Mets package with Gomez and F-Mart makes more sense.

Personally, I don't see them as competitive in 08. Better to load up on higher ceiling prospects and ramp up for a run in 2010.

"Mercenary -adj

- Signings from other organization thru trade or free-agent signings. A mercenary doesn't label as homegrown who came up different organization

:)"

Posting fallacies over and over again doesn't make them true. Regardless, the more you post the more it becomes apparent that you're just a silly little kid trolling and it saddens me that you've gotten any attention.

Hopefully everyone else will start to realize you're just looking for attention and no one will respond to you in the future. (or better yet Tim decides to ban you)

And before you even comment on it, I'm not a Mets fan...

A kid? Your calling me a kid? you don't know even me you idiot....

Ban Gfulla!!! Your the one that is trolling here..... Go Back to India with your stupid pathecic name. What hell is Gfulla means?

srry corshep but us twins fans already have the guy who led the league in outfield assists, and it wasnt melky, its cuddyer with 19 outfield assists on the year. Melky while not bad at his age, the only reason i wouldnt want him on the twins is because he is not the speedy leadoff guy we need, and this twins team has the offense set except for the leadoff guy, that would be the only reason id lean towards ellsbury, or maybe even gomez... pure speed