Giants Like Kotchman And Mathis

Mathis can be traded with no problem... the Angels have Ryan Budde and Bobby Wilson that can take his place this season.
Kotchman though... I doubt he'd go anywhere. He's been a huge part of the Angels' plans, and he could very well have a breakout season this year. It would take a pretty big package to net him.

Kotchman being traded only makes sense if the Angels can then turn around and acquire Konerko or someone similar. I don't think you can trade Kotchman and pin all your hopes on Morales.

I also don't understand their interest in Molina. I like the guy a great deal. However, Napoli is a better hitter already, doesn't cost anything, and will only get better with time.

Only way a deal with the Giants makes sense is if it is for one of the big guns on the rotation. Then we can talk about Mathis/Kotchman/Willits/Rivera, etc. Otherwise there just isn't anything on that team worth acquiring.

What is the fascination with Freel? I mean seriously, the posters on this board seems to have Freelitis or something. I just don’t get it though, he was an ok player in an extreme hitters park who is hurt more than not and off a season that would make babies cry. Freel in most other cities is a retirement waiting to happen in my eyes, yet everyone drools over his name? Interesting…

Anyway, yeah of course the Giants would want Kotchman, but the Angels don’t seem to ever trade kids so its probably unlikely anything ever gets done. If they want him (or any other Angel kid) bad enough, they will probably have to wait till they are FA and not resigned because of a lack of 25-man spots to keep them (ala Dallas this offseason). It seems unlikely the Angels will ever stop bringing in questionable-contract Vets to block the kids (See Hunter/Mathews/Garland) so a good portion of the Kids should be FAs soon enough…

Liked Molina when he was here. Do not want to see him back!

Like Kotchman but he is soft and injury prone. Love to see Morales & Rivera platoon at first to get their bats in the lineup.

Kotchman is already statistically the best defense first baseman in the AL. He hits .300 and should hit 15 HR amd drive in 90. All these spare part trades are hysterical. The ONLY trade Mr. Reagins would consider would be something like Mathis and Kotchman for Lincecum. Giants fans are so used to sending there best propects for an AJ pyrzenski. Well let me be the first to say, welcome back to the real MLB

Nah, that's just not gonna happen. IF the Giant were ever to trade someone like Lincecum, it would have to wait until after this season, which hopefully would be stellar for Lincy, and then the Giants can move him for a bevy of talent the likes of what the Orioles nabbed for Bedard, or the A's nabbed for Haren.

A guy like Kothman paired with a lackluster catcher, and an outfielder is nowhere near what Lincecum is worth. Willits is great and all, but the last thing the Giants need is one more CF.

Yeah, this is tricky. On the one hand, Kotchman alone is worth far more to the Angels than Molina and any spare parts (you can pretty it up all you want, it's still junk), but Lincecum is worth far more than Kotchman/Mathis. Kotchman is one of the better young 1B in the game; a player any rebuilding team would love to have (say...my Orioles). But while the Angels look to be more open to trades now that Stoneman's no longer the GM, I can't see something like this happening.

That being said, am I the only one who thought there was one very obvious option sitting there like an elephant in the room? Why not Morales/Mathis for Molina? Maybe throw in a half decent prospect as well, but it's pretty close right there (since the Angels would have Molina and Mathis may have the higher upside, you could even put Napoli in the deal instead of Mathis, depending on what the Giants prefer).

Morales, like Kotchman, is young and talented. Unlike Kotchman, he's been blocked and given no chance to succeed due to the organization's tendency to bring in vets (as dark alluded to, above).

Somewhat tangentially, the Angels have had one of the top farm systems in the game over the past few years, but an organizational lack of patience has really hurt the development of their talent. Morales is just one example: signed out of Cuba for some absurd amount of money, he hit fairly well in the minors (if I'm not mistaken) and was considered a pretty strong prospect, but never received consistent playing time. Time and again, the Angels have shown themselves enamored of- and distracted by- their own wealth, going out of house for the kind of players sitting under their collective noses.

It appears Morales will never get a shot in LA; an unfortunate victim of circumstance and Molina fills a need (arguably). The Giants are in the position to take some risks and Molina's value is unlikely to rise, considering his age (not old, but...) so...why not? Some combination of Morales, Mathis/Napoli, and a position prospect no better than Petit or Statia (and even that might be too much) would easily get the job done and gives both sides a victory. For the Angels, they return a strong offensive/defensive veteran backstop whose age window corresponds with that of the Angels' other elders (Guerrero, Hunter, etc.) The Giants, on the other hand, receive a 1B with considerable upside, a catcher with some defensive prowess and a little pop in his swing (Napoli) or serious unrealized offensive potential and capable enough D (Mathis- a former top prospect), and maybe a decent position prospect for an organization woefully light on them.

I think Kendry Morales and Mathis/ or Napoli are certainly enough in trade for Molina. Of course, if Sabes can squeeze more out of that deal, great. And Morales looks like he has potential but is blocked, so he may be considered more dispensable than Kotchman?

I'd like to see that deal get done. A young 1B and C for Molina? Makes sense, I think.

As for the question as to why the Angels want/ need Molina-- that I'm not entirely sure of myself. But, Molina is the kind of guy you'd like to have on a "WIN NOW" team.

The Angels would want Molina to win now, as Irs77 suggested, and because Napoli and especially Mathis have disappointed (to differing degrees) since they were given the opportunity that Molina's trade presented them.

'Very Good?!'- not sure where you're getting that Burtis, but I guess we'll agree to disagree.

OK - people are just being crazy here.

The original post is the Giants inquiring about the Angels players. Specifically, Kotchman and Mathis are being sought out by the GIANTS.

The speculation portion of this trade comes into play when discussing what the Angels would want in return. Assuming that they would want Molina is just nuts.

Molina has posted OPS's of 786 and 731 since leaving the Angels. Napoli as a rookie posted an OPS of 815 and followed that with an OPS of 794 in an injury shortened season. Right now, Mike Napoli is better than Benji Molina at a fraction of the cost. You can throw out any rumor that involves the Giants sending the Angels Molina.

I brought up Lincecum because the Giants did explore moving him for Rios. Rios is a nice player but not substantially better than Kotchman. Last year Kotchman posted an 839 OPS while Rios posted an 852. Rios has better power potential while Kotchman hits for a higher average and has better plate discipline. Both are excellent fielders. Kotchman is also two full years younger.

Rios is equivalent or slightly better than Kotchman. Throwing in a starting ML catcher plus a starting OF in Willits seems pretty fair. Again, that presupposes that the Giants would have considered trading Lincecum for Rios. Personally, if I were the Giants I wouldn't be trading Lincecum for a Rios type player. I would want someone much better.

"What is the fascination with Freel? I mean seriously, the posters on this board seems to have Freelitis or something."

It's Farney working his tricks on us.

You guys are crazy. If Sabean could get Morales for Molina and NOTHING, he should run not walk to make that deal. Or if the Angels are feeling like handing out talented-but-blocked youngsters, why not ask for Brandon Wood and Joe Saunders while you're at it? After all the Angels already have Figgins and Lackey, why wouldn't they just give the kids away for free?

The idea that LAA, the runaway favorite to win their division, would deal their young, effective, and cheap starting 1B (or younger, talented, unproven other 1B) for a catcher more expensive and less good than the one they've currently got is just nuts.

People who keep saying Lincecum for these 2 bums is a possibility are crazier then Sabean.. I mean come on Lincecum is agruably the best young SP in the game and to say that this package of avg. players for him when Rios a future star wasn't enough for Sabean who normally pulls the trigger at any lopsided proposal he can proves that he values Lincecum as virtually untouchable. I don't even think I would trade Lowry or Sanchez for these guys. It's pointless to acquire avg. bats when no one else on the team can score a run.

Also the comparassion of Rios to Kotchman is obsurd, the stats aren't close, and 1b are a dime a dozen. Seriously anyone can be transformed into a 1b it seems, just start to suck at the position you play and go play 1b.

I think it comes down to this, at what point are the Giants going to throw in the towel and start the rebuilding process. Honestly it makes no sense to start that process now (bare with me) since no team is going to trade young talent(s) for the crap that SF is willing to give up. For them to have rebuild this year that would have started at the trade deadline last year, since thats when teams are willing to give up more for the playoff run. Given this the Giants should plan on unloading the vets at the deadline this year.

No matter what you think of them, the vets still provide plenty of intangibles to a young club. And if a contenting team is hurt or in need of a vet leadership its more likely at the middle of the season then at the start. Thus they will let teams know now what they are looking at, and if those same teams are in the market for players that SF has they know what it will take to get them. Its called testing the waters, and most clubs do it. Check the marlins for that one, since they seem to be in a constant rebuilding mode.

Wouldnt it be mighty difficult to rebuild without cain and lincecum? i mean how good can they be without them, now if we could get rid of zito! but i think we need to keep our young guns in order to contend any time soon.

ASM: It all depends on where they are if and when they decide they need them.

Jbowl: They haven't really shown any intention of moving either of their young guns. They are more in the market for trading their vets, but that doesn't happen too often before the year. It will, if it does, during the middle of the season.

Giant ... please you have to be kidding right? This has to be a joke.

You included COUNTING stats. You know, the ones that are largely based off HOW MANY AB's a player gets.

Is it a shock that Rios had more hits when he also had TWO HUNDRED extra AB's.

SLG/OPS/BA equalize statistics regardless of AB's. They tend to be a little more useful when evaluating players that don't have an equal number of PA.

As for lineups - the Angels scored about 10% more runs than the Blue Jays. While Rios is hitting at the top of the lineup Kotchman was hitting at the bottom. Protecting Rios are some formidable sluggers (Thomas/Glaus/Wells). Protecting Kotchman was Cesar Izturis. The Angels had exactly ONE player with more than 20 home runs - the Jays had 4.

I know I will take a beating for this: but I am going to look in the archives to find the date (I estimate about 3 months ago) when I suggested this and took a shellacking from every baseball fan on this site. It is my mission...

I guess i should have read that before i posted...

Interesting debate on Kotch vs Rios, but I’m not quite sure I can stand on your side with this one BJ... I mean, Kotch is a nice looking young player, but…

First, I wanted to mention that RF is not somewhere that you can toss just anyone with a pulse. Although RF is generally easier to play than Center, you still need to get good reads on the ball and have a strong arm ~ otherwise doubles will turn into triples all day long, costing your team an unknown amount of games. Anyone can pickup 1B or LF though, neither position demands much fielding ability and we generally see each team playing someone in one of the two spots who can be described as “a wall with a glove”. Great fielding 1B with a questionable bat don’t generally stick around long, but great hitting 1B with a questionable glove don’t generally go away unless their team has the DH avail for them and they slide over to it…

Also, Kotchman as of yet doesn’t have a single full-year worth of experience, and his career numbers have been effected by a slight-disproportioned amount of ABs vs RH because of the near-complete loss of power vs LH pitching. Kotch is looking as though he might be rather injury prone, not a good sign for someone with a limited skillset… Sure, he is a nice looking young player, but his game really is limited. Rios on the other hand has provided impressive results across each of the 5-tools categories. His position is harder to fill, and his range of tools harder to find in a player; while he has also shown the results and growth pattern everywhere outside his sophomore-slump season. Its easy to see a situation where Rios continues to see both OBP and Power growth, his speed will always help push both as well. Kotchman being completely void of speed has his upside limited though; his future seems to be one of a slow non-flexible (positions wise) OBP threat with some power. If his power increases from 2B to more of a HR threat, then we might be looking at a Konerko type hitter ~ if it doesn’t, then we are probably looking at Sean Casey… He has nice value, and fits the Angels current needs rather perfectly; but its not nearly the same value as a Rios type…

jbowl: I'll give you two examples. Go back and look at the Royals and Braves before and after John Schuerholz. Interesting read is "Built to Win, lays it all out.

Teams rebuilding with little to nothing to start are pretty rare. Cleveland in 2001/2002 might be an good example ~ Hart had gutted the system of most solid hitting prospects, their ML players were over the hill or about to leave and their few remaining MiL talents were still a few years away (and in similar positions as the Giants of today). They still had some ML-Ready (or close) SP kids though, much like the Giants as well. They traded one of their younger and cheaper SP kids (Colon, who is a similar situation to Cain with the Giants really) for an extreme package, which started the real rebuild. That package was the result of waiting for a team in desperation though, something they continued to show in trads of lesser guys as teams came knocking (Diaz to Tex for Pronk, Finley to StL for Crisp, etc…) The key was finding teams with a need and asking for players who were either blocked or years away from helping without the hype around their names ~ took good scouting though!

Another is probably Pitts in the Mid-to-Late 90’s ~ a rebuild which is still waiting to show results. They too had older players with less desire and some young SP kids that looked like they would be solid starters. Their MiL scouting didn’t seem to be that hot though, and they didn’t capitalize off trade opportunities as they presented themselves.

I would love to have Bengie Molina back. I would deal Morales and Mathis for Bengie. Our catching situation is a mess offensively. Molina is one of the best clutch players in the MLB. Mathis is a good defensive catcher but his offense is horrible same with Mike Napoli. Bengie is good in both. He would be a great addition for the Angels. It was a mistake to let him go in the first place.