Heyman's Latest: Griffey, Garcia, Sabathia

Jr. could finally get his WS ring if he moves down south to Tampa they keep playing the way they have. He's pushing the right move here.

Isn't JR. a better version of Cliff Floyd? I would think they would just release him if they traded for Jr. He serves the same purpose of Floyd except the fact that he is just pretty much better...

There's nothing wrong with Cliff Floyd, and Griffey is showing decline, I don't see why the Rays need him.

If we were talking Jason Bay or Matt Holliday, on the other hand... ok, mostly Jason Bay, then it would be a different story. Hell, even X Nady would be a vast improvement over what the Rays have(and the old Griffey).

The Rays have more than enough prospects to get... anyone they want, really. I'd be surprised to not see them acquire an outfielder.

Brignac, Davis and McGee would get it done for Bay, maybe a throw in from Pittsburg. Don't underestimate the value of Bay. Although, I have to wonder if the Rays will bench Bartlett in favor of Brignac, but either way the Rays can get it done.

Perhaps it's just me, but I wouldn't let the euphoria of being in the pennant race for the first time in the history of ever make me trade pitching prospects #2 and 3 along with my top infield prospect for a Jason Bay.

I wonder what else would have to go with a Chris Nowak/James Houser combination to the Reds for Griffey. Houser's on the 40, and is a big, projectable lefty (past "issues" aside), and Nowak could eventually help with the Encarnacion issues.

Bay's a non-starter at the previously suggested price.

Brignac(along with a couple others) would probably warrant a Dunn or Harang type return. Probably not Dunn because he's really expensive, is probably gone after the season, plays terrible defense and has an off-chance of including the Rays on his NTC, so he's out. And Harang has too much value to the Reds to trade for anything less than too much. So the Reds really don't have much for the Rays.

The Rays have enough pitching talent in the majors and minors that losing two prospects won't be much of a hit. They also have Jeremy Hellickson on the rise, and Kyle Lobstein if he signs. I wouldn't be worried about it all, there's a chance neither McGee nor Davis become anything. And Brignac might not be the best fit for that equation. Maybe if they can add Jack Wilson to the deal... that's getting pretty far ahead though.

The Reds currently have plenty of shortstops in the minors just not at AAA right now. Jeff Keppinger comes back within a week or so. Jerry Hairston Jr. comes back within 3 or so weeks. Alex Gonzalez....who knows. Probably a month or so maybe more.

I don't know what the Rays got in depth but if they've got a spare centerfield/leadoff guy that's something the Reds definately need.

Aduncaroo, Griffey is hitting better away from Great American.

I think Junior to the Rays makes a ton of sense. Granted his play hasn’t been elite like it once was, but its still upper tier and the name recognition he brings will be big for a club that often has difficulty getting the populations attention.

“He would also be a worse hitter if he wasn't playing at the great american small park. I agree, I think a bigger aquisition like Bay is a better fit.”

Grif is hitting .268/.380/.425 on the road to .240/.347/.390 at GAP. His numbers go back and forth over the years, but overall end up fairly even… That statement doesn’t hold much weight and will not even begin to be a concern for interested teams…

People don't go to games to see the overweight ghost of a once elite baseball player. They go to games to see their team win, and Bay will certainly help them do that more than Griffey. That Rays fans have barely showed up is an atrocity, and one player won't make the difference. This is why the Florida teams will likely be moved one day.

Back to the issue at hand... Bay will certainly give the Rays that push that their prospects in the minors won't. This is the time they are going to win, and this is the time to spend all those prospects you don't need. They are in a pennant race, and Griffey isn't going to make them better if he plays like he has.

"People don't go to games to see the overweight ghost of a once elite baseball player. They go to games to see their team win, and Bay will certainly help them do that more than Griffey. That Rays fans have barely showed up is an atrocity, and one player won't make the difference. This is why the Florida teams will likely be moved one day."

...Tell that " go to games to see their team win " thing to the Marlins. The Rays are much more likely to fill seats with a guy where everyone in the united states (and most of the world) knows his name than a guy who might hit a tiny bit better but is basically just a random name to anyone outside of true baseball fans... The production difference between the two isnt going to be extreme, the cost will probably be more for Bay (Pitt seems to want a ton) and Jr will fill seats ~ the biggest difference comes in the longterm value, but Griffey walking is probably 2 first-rounders so…

I still think the Rays could add bat like Holliday. If they give up Brignac, Davis and Niemann they could have him. Brignac would move to 2b giving them a great future middle infield of Brignac and Tulo. Davis and Niemann really give the Rox a lot of rotation depth. The Rox could replace Holliday with Ryan Spilborhgs. They'd have a rotation of 1. Cook 2. Francis 3. Moralas 4. Davis 5. Jimenez. Niemann and Reynolds add depth. The Rays will have one of the best lineups in the AL and still a ghreat future rotation of 1. Kazmir 2. Shields 3. Price 4. Garza 5. Jackson. They'd switch McGee to the bullpen.

People are overrating the value of Griffey and undervaluing the value of Bay. There's a difference of 42 points in OPS+ in there somewhere. If the Rays make the playoffs, they will sell tickets. I don't care if 3/4ths of them are Red Sox/Yankees fans, they will sell tickets. If Bay actually got protection from someone I would hate to think what would happen. Plus, not only does Bay play an outfield position healthily but he plays it well. He costs less. He doesn't turn 30 until September and besides one season he has displayed all-star to MVP caliber value his whole ML career.

Also, compare McGee/Davis/Brignac to the Teixiera package. Look up the stats of Feliz, Harrison and then look at their age and level. Jones has an outside shot at being something because he can strike people out. Tell me how many shortstops are in AA at age 19. Considering the talent of Andrus and Salty, I'll take that one any day.

*underrating the value of Bay

How about K/BB ratio. Feliz has a pretty sick one. Or maybe age/level ratio. Andrus has one of the tops in the league. And I doubt Law or Goldstein has much other than what we have, except their opinion is probably more biased.

“People are overrating the value of Griffey and undervaluing the value of Bay. There's a difference of 42 points in OPS+ in there somewhere”

No one is saying Bay isnt better, but the thread is about Griffey and his fit. He actually is an ideal fit, he brings solid production, name recognition and one of the better rolemodel-type mentalities to a young team ~ all at a prospect cost which will probably be lower than Bay…

Also, last year I asked Tim if he thought Griffey would be a good fit for the then Devil Rays, considering he could be a role model type. He said no, why would they want an aging bat that costs so much? It makes sense more so now that Dukes and Young are gone. If they want him so badly, sign him when he doesn't cost so much. Not like they're desperate for him.

"And I doubt Law or Goldstein has much other than what we have, except their opinion is probably more biased."

Confused by that. Both work for independent organizations so whether or not they're correct on projecting a prospect is of utmost importance. Its not like they're associated with teams (like front office people, team scouts and Peter Gammons) and have a vested interest in promoting a certain guy.

Not team biased, but rather biased as in the way they view different prospects. Opinionated probably would have been a better choice of word.

k, maybe Grabow is too much, Marte would be better

you get the idea though.

"Perhaps it's just me, but I wouldn't let the euphoria of being in the pennant race for the first time in the history of ever make me trade pitching prospects #2 and 3 along with my top infield prospect for a Jason Bay. "

Jason Bay is a stud, he desrves a big bounty. Adding a Bay and a reliever to TB without hurting their ML Roster gives them as good a chance as any team to make a run into the WS. A lot of you seem to think the Rays are just some cute little underdog that is a nice story right now, only they are actually the best team in the AL East right now with Ortiz out. And idk why Gogo's proposal was so ridiculous, look at what Tex got, and I will take Bay over Tex as a hitter anyday.

I guess to defend my comment for a final time: I'd take Teixiera over Bay in general (despite Bay being far superior in stats so far in 2008) and I'd take the hypothetical TB package over the Braves package because it has more highly rated players who are closer to the majors. Different strokes, perhaps, but I just can't see Tampa Bay giving up two of Brignac/McGee/Davis for Bay let alone all three.

(And I think most people have come around to thinking Atlanta overpaid for Teixiera. Sort of Schuerholz's going away present to himself.)

Yes, it's fair to think that roughly 3,000 people have ever heard of Jason Bay

*dances maniacally on computer table*

Plus, I don't think you really believe a major league team would go for a guy for the reasons you have presented. Come on now. Bay kicks the sh*t out of Griffey now, as much as I like the guy.

"Plus, I don't think you really believe a major league team would go for a guy for the reasons you have presented. Come on now. Bay kicks the sh*t out of Griffey now, as much as I like the guy."

...Uhh, you seem to be having a hard time coming to grips with the fact that I am not saying that. I am saying Griffey makes a ton of sense, and seems as though he would be a great fit. Is there an argument to target Bay over Griffey? Of course… Is their an argument in the reverse ~ yeah. The entire point is that Griffey seems a good fit…

If you really wanted to go over all the reasons though, I would simply point to the fact that TB needs someone who can play RF, eliminating half the guys on the list of “others they should target” we have been given by some posters. Can Bay play RF? I show the last time he tried was 2003 ~ that was a whole 1 game and 2 POs…

"Yes, it's fair to think that roughly 3,000 people have ever heard of Jason Bay

*dances maniacally on computer table*"

...Hahaha. Ok, and how many of that 3,000 live in Pitt?

"...How do you figure? I mean, sure ~ a baseball fan will know that Bay is better and might want to see him; but that doesnt really increase attendance. Bonds increases attendance, not Rowand. Griffey increases attendance, not someone 99.999% of the population has never heard of. "

Okay, maybe you are right about some non (fan) fans going out to watch a game because Griffey comes out. But how long does this last? A week of two? Dark, just because the Rays stunk for a long time does not mean the people who support them are ignorant casual fans who never heard of Jason Bay but will go apeshyt over an over the hill Griffey.

If I were a Rays fan, and I dont attend baseball games more then a time or two a year anyway, I watch as many as possible on TV, but back to the point, I know that for me a Jason Bay acquisition would motivate me to get out to the park to support my Rays a helluva lot more then a Griffey acquisition would.

So yeah, I agree with the idea you can bring out a lot of non baseball fans and families and things to the park with a Griffey trade. But is this who you really are trying to market your product too, or do you want to market it to the people who are going to come out and support the team long after Griffey and Bay are both retired? Bay is the obvious better choice, and the improvement over Griffey is a lot more then just marginal.

Anyway, the best idea, after all this discussion, like a lot of other teams, is Bonds. He will bring in more attendance then Bay or Griffey, he will out produce Bay or Griffey, and he will cost less in terms of prospects and money then Bay or Griffey. There you go.

I'm thinking Bay's lack of arm strength precludes RF.

I guess because it is a friday afternoon and I am just bored ands having a discussion about baseball. Notice I didnt mention your moms basement, or the style in which you go about picking up ladies. I will leave that for the Guru, speaking of which, is it possible our Guru friend left us for good out of sheer embarrasment? I doubt it.

damn i missed that lol

it must of been a day i worked all day and it was one of Tims busy days at posting stuff for the site