Cubs Inquired On Khalil Greene?

The Blue Jays want a shortstop. I would be okay if they traded for Greene and then turned around and sent Greene and Marquis to Toronto for AJ.

Greene has the potential to be a Jeff Francoeur at the SS position. Great glove, low OBP, and good power and RBI production from the position.
As for Theriot he goes to the right like Alec Baldwin, has the footwork of Miss USA, the arm of Ila Borders and makes Geovany Soto look like Jason Kendall behind the plate by dropping all of his throws lately. Offensively his numbers have to go down he was only a .352 OBP guy in minors and died down the stretch last year. He also seems to have regressed in footspeed this season so backup may be necessary.

exactly why this site is called mlbtradeRUMORS, and where would greene be playing, the cubs middle infield is set and adding greene would be a HUGE downgrade, de rosa at 2b and theriot at SS

I dont see a fit. Theriot has an all-star consideration while we have a capable backup in Cedeno. It just doesnt make sense unless they dont think Soriano will stay healthy so wed move DeRosa to LF, Theriot to 2B and Greene would play SS??

I don't understand why people in Chicago love Cedeno. He is the next Corey Patterson for the Cubs. Hes a guy they give too much opportunity to and he won't produce and will never be an every day player.

Theriot is a solid ball player, and probably can play second just as well as he does shortstop. Green is a definite upgrade from Fontenot, which is an upgrade both defensively and offensively. Just don't give up too much to get Greene...he doesn't post that high of numbers and the Cubs are already an offensive powerhouse.

I don't understand why they make this move unless clarknaddison is right and they need to move DeRosa to the outfield or they're looking to move Cedeno in a seperate trade and need backup. Maybe this would be a move behind a move. Regardless, I'm not much of a fan of this idea. But then again, I was not a fan of the Jim Edmonds signing and that's worked out fairly well so far...

I think they should be looking at relief pitching right now. Marmol is imploding.

"The Padres prefer not to sell low on Greene, however."

That's the most frustrating part about Greene. there is never an opportunity to sell high. He has never lived up to expectations. He is what he is. I think that now is actually the best time to trade him as the team receiving him has him under control through next season and might be willing to part with a little more. As a Padres fan, I'm ready to move on.

I think Yose brings up an interesting issue with the Cubs. Cedeno's playing time has really diminished of late. What the Cubs don't have is a SS they trust to play behind Theriot. Lou really tried to like Cedeno but...he's still Cedeno. I would imagine Greene would give Theriot an occassional breather and be a late inning defensive replacement...an area where Theriot has struggled a bit. Remember that Theriot wore down badly late last year and the Cubs would like to try and avoid that this year. As for now, I don't think the Cubs would even think about bumping Theriot from the lineup. He's been an offensive spark, a table setter, and possibly their most vocal leader. And Lou loves him.
The deal only makes sense with Greene as a backup; a steady, defensive SS who can fill in occasionally to add some pop and to give Theriot some much needed rest. We'll need him healthy and fresh down the stretch.

Good point. Lou said it best, "the guy's a ballplayer". Plain and simple. He's won from every level...from the LSU days through the minors, and in his first 2 full seasons with the Cubs.

"Greene to the Cubs for Cedeno and Pie"

Umm...no. No thanks. Maybe if Green was having the season he did last year...but his stock may have taken a bigger hit than Pie's.

I'll post the numbers again.

Theriot .320/.394/.369
Cedeno .269/.340/.354
Greene .216/.264/.329

Greene is slugging .329 people. I understand he plays in PETCO, so lets just throw him .030. Even then, its the same as Ronny and worse than Theriot. I don't think there is anything to this rumor at all. Greene isn't going to be happy in a backup role and that is the only scenario where he comes to Chicago.

Pie has been hitting really well lately in AAA, and there is no reason to sell low on him at all unless its for a real difference maker.

I think Theriot should be better this year in the 2nd half. If not, I think Ronny is at least capable of playing twice a week.

Maybe a 3 team trade. I think someone mentioned that before too.

I still think the Cubs need one more quality arm in the bullpen. And/or a good CF

Wow. No wonder Cub fans have a bad reputation on this board.

Anyone who thinks Theriot is better than Greene must be watching a different Cubs team than I am.

Theriot can't just not go right, he can't go left either. His range is awful. His arm is weak.

He hits for absolutely no power, and makes enough boneheaded baserunning errors for an entire team.

That being said, it's obvious that the Cubs offense can carry him as a #8 hitter when Soriano returns.

Seems like this offseason would be an ideal time to buy low on Greene.

Cubs don't need a SS Ryan Theriot and Ronny Cedeno are doing just fine their. We don't need a 2B Mark DeRosa and Mighty Mike Fontenot are good their. We have no need for OF as we have 4 of them(Johnson, Edmonds, Fukudome, Soriano) also Ward and DeRo plays out there too. Actually I could maybe see a Brian Giles trade if they move Fukudome to CF and put Giles in RF and do something with Edmonds or Johnson. I doubt it though. I did hear that Cubs want another bullpen pitcher since Wuertz is not good right now. Cla Meredith or Heath Bell anyone?

RoquetMan-
Have you even seen Ryan Theriot play? He has one of the best batting averages for a SS. As I will show you that Ryan Theriot is way better then Greene.

Theriot- .320/.394/.369 with 1 homer and 25 RBIs 15 stolen bases and caught 9 times

Greene- .216/.264/..329 with 8 homers and 32 RBIs 5 Stolen Bases and was caught once.

Yeah it really seems like Greene is really doing better then Theriot.

Oh and by the way Theriot is a lead-off #2 in the line up guy hes not expected to hit homers and he is actually a good fielder.

Oh yeah. When I say that Greene is a "slightly-below-average hitter" and Theriot is a "below-average hitter", I am comparing them to all hitters. If you compare them to just other SS, then Theriot is league average (nice AVG and OBP, sucky SLG) while Greene is above-average (poor AVG and OBP, but great SLG). Just wanted to clarify. And for the record, I am primarily and Astros fan and Mariners fan (how depressed am I this year), so I have no dog in the fight. Just my neutral analysis.

Spew all the sabermetrics you want mymrbig, but you forget the big picture. You somehow think that Theriot should be punished for having good home statistics. Guess what, I want a guy to play better in the place that he plays 81 of 162 games. Theriot isn't expected to provide power or drive in runs, he's expected to get on base and slap the ball around, which he does very well. Greene is supposed to provide power from the SS spot offensively, to make up for his lack of patience and on-base skills, but he doesn't do that. (Only 7 more RBIs than Theriot despite having 8 HRs to Theriot's 1.)
Am I a Cubs fan? Darn tootin'. But I'm not some idiot fanboy that can't look at things from a neutral perspective. I'd replace Theriot at SS in a second if we were actually getting someone there that was an upgrade. But sorry, spin your sabermetrics and talk about defensive value all you want, there's no way that anyone in their right mind is replacing a guy hitting .320 and getting on base at a .394 clip with a guy hitting .216 with a .264 OBP. In your above post you call Theriot SLG (.369) 'sucky', but you call Greene's (.329) 'great'. Excuse me? Once again, Theriot is a guy expected to get on base, slap the ball around, and score runs. He's doing that. Greene is expected to hit HRs and drive in runs. He's not doing that. End of story. He can be Ozzie freakin' Smith on defense and I still don't want his .216 average anywhere near my lineup.

Mymrbig,
Some good stuff there! I wish i had that much time on my hands :).

You could go back and forth on their value a hundred times - at the end of the day i think the answer is going to be they are equal in value considering salary and team control.

The thing i like about Theriot is that he is on pace to draw about 75% more walks than last year - if he can get to the point where he is walking 80 times a year than there is good enough value there.

plh903 - touche! I just didn't want to go there and tried to take a short cut. Busted, and guilty as charged. But my larger point is still true!

CubFanForLife,
(1) I do not think Theriot should be punished for having good home stats. But he does play 81 games on the road and he sucks there. My point was that, in my opinion, Greene would provide the Cubs with more offensive production than Theriot if they both played 1/2 their games at Wrigley and 1/2 their games on the road. Greene already crushes Theriot in their road games and I think they would be even in home games (displaying different offensive skill sets).
(2) Please stop citing just 2008 (1/2 season) stats. I never called Theriot's 2008 .369 SLG "sucky" or Greene's 2008 .329 SLG "great". In fact, I was railing against the reliance on 1/2 season stats, so doing so would be counter-productive to one of my central arguments. I was calling Theriot's career SLG "sucky" (especially factoring in a favorable home ballpark) and I was calling Greene's career SLG "great" (especially factoring in a miserable home ballpark and the fact that he is a SS).
(3) I agree with you that, on its face, replacing Theriot with Greene does not make any sense. Theriot is having a "great" season! (aka "lucky" season from an below-average player). Greene is having a "sucky" season! (aka "unlucky and poor" for a good player).

Look, the real question here is, who is going to be better for the rest of 2008? No doubt Theriot has been better and luckier than Greene so far. But I would love to see what Greene could do in a favorable ballpark and I think he would be the better player, offensively and defensively.

plh903 - Thanks for summarizing my rambling posts, that is exactly what I was getting at. But the stats are needed for context, otherwise people can accuse you of making stuff up.

cubz23 - I agree that, factoring in team control, they are pretty similar. But I think Greene will help the Cubs more in 2008 (and 2009), which is clearly their focus right now.

I don't hate Theriot. He is an excellent utility guy, and good enough at SS to start for some teams. But I think Greene is a worthwhile upgrade when you consider all the factors (rather than just their 2008 offensive stats).

Above numbers pulled out of my ass and for illustrative purposes only.

Now don't get me wrong...I'm not saying Greene may not be as "valuable" as Theriot. I'm just saying he isn't to the Cubs. I'm sorry, but if I'm building a team, I don't give up anything of value for a guy who is a lifetime .249/.305 hitter...and certainly don't replace Theriot in the middle of only his 2nd full season, when the guy is hitting .320/.400 in front of Lee, Ramirez, and Soto.

Low average guys are fine, as long as they can get on base. Greene just doesn't do that enough for me to say that he is anything but a pretty good backup on this team.

"His OBP wouldn't be so abysmal if he was hitting homers in Wrigley. He's an extreme fly ball hitter in a cavernous park. His OBP is still going to be suspect (not .305 bad though), but the power and defense makes up for it."

I would venture to say that thos 85 Ks to only 21 BBs at the break have a lot to do with his terrible OBP. That the guy's walk rate has regressed since his rookie year is downright disturbing.

Aduncaroo,

Great post, and to a large extent, I agree. While I think Greene is better on a talent level (offensively and defensively), Theriot seems to be a catalyst for the Cubs and it does not make sense to replace him with Greene right now.

Looking at just 2008 stats does not tell the whole story, anyone (including myself) would be a fool to completely ignore them! If Greene was playing at his career averages, I think the trade might make sense. But there is too much risk that (1) Greene continues to struggle the rest of the year (he is having a down year, regardless of luck) and (2) team chemistry is disrupted.

For the record, I hate low AVG, low OBP guys like Greene. I still think he is more valuable than Theriot, which says something about how I value slap hitters who play below-average defense (whither Juan Pierre?). It also says something about how much of a difference I think there is between Pecto and Wrigley!

I think Theriot's BABIP will regress to his mean, maybe making him a .290/.350/.340 hitter for the rest of the year. Still has some value. But if Greene could hit for the Cubs like he has hit on the road during his career (.273/.328/.500), I would take Greene in the middle of a playoff run.

Comparing Greene's stats (1/2 of games at Petco) with Corey Patterson (home games at Wrigley, Baltimore, and some in Great American) is not really fair. Imagine Corey Patterson in Petco. His AVG and OBP would drop a little and his SLG would plummet.

Anytime you look at stats for a Padres hitter, you have to consider the ballpark's effect. Kind of like Coors, but not as bad, and the inverse.

Aduncaroo, BABIP is a slippery stat, but still very useful.

Batters definitely have control over their BABIP. That is why I compared Greene's BABIP this year to his career numbers and Theriot's to his career numbers. Comparing them to each other (or to any sort of league average) is comparing apples to oranges.

Theriot's BABIP is higher than Greene's because he hits more line drives, more grounders, and is a faster runner. Greene's is depressed because some of his fly balls don't make it over the fence in Petco, but are helped a little because more of his liners, grounders, and fly balls should find holes (because he hits the ball harder).

Phil,
Maybe, but was the wind blowing out or in that day? Wrigley is two different parks depending on that...I used to think that was dumb, but the more you watch games there the more you realize that it is a HUGE factor in that park.

I hate BABIP for pitchers more than hitters, because I think the pitcher has control over whether a player squares up his pitches or not. Some people act like stats should all be based on a pitcher and hitter having a .300ish BABIP, which is completely ignorant. I do agree with comparing it to a player's career rate though...thats more telling. However, remember, Theriot had one full year in the bigs. His career line is much more likely to change than Greene's is.

Phil,
Good luck getting Scotty to give you money in advance. Thats like asking a homeless guy to put his liquor on lay away...

In fact, thats like asking Scotty to put his liquor on lay away!

"Theriot's BABIP is higher than Greene's because he hits more line drives, more grounders, and is a faster runner. Greene's is depressed because some of his fly balls don't make it over the fence in Petco, but are helped a little because more of his liners, grounders, and fly balls should find holes (because he hits the ball harder)."

Actually, there is a very strong argument that Greene's BABIP numbers are nullified by his high K rate.

"AA, I'd like to hear this strong argument or just hear what you mean by that. "

Greene gets fewer balls in play because he strikes out so often, which means that even a high BABIP would mean less.

Greene is having a bad year that is magnified by also being somewhat unlucky. I agree that his unlucky BABIP does not affect his AVG/OBP/SLG as much as other players because of his K%. At the same time, Theriot's AVG/OBP/SLG are more affected by his high BABIP (which I agree is still a smaller sample size then I'd like, but his career .318 sounds about right for his skill set).

plh903 - "You just won't find extreme BABIP numbers for any meaningful sample (among starters). .285? Sure, maybe. .245? Not a chance." Chris Young! .268 career BABIP. And looking at just his years with the Padres, which I think is reasonably given his age, the change in leagues, and the ballpark, he has posted .237, .252, and .293. I'm skeptical of the .293 number since he hasn't been right all year (walks up, slower fastball). But putting up 2 years with a combined BABIP against around .245 is pretty amazing!

"Greene to the Dodgers for Hu and Jonathan Meloan. Pretty similar deal with the same idea."

I don't think he is worth both those guys at this point, and I don't know if the Friars would want to deal him in-division. Further, the Dodgers don't need his kind of bat in the lineup either. They need someone who can hit for average and get on base.

"At the same time, Theriot's AVG/OBP/SLG are more affected by his high BABIP (which I agree is still a smaller sample size then I'd like, but his career .318 sounds about right for his skill set)."

Theriot is always going to have a higher BABIP because of his speed and because he hits for contact. I think people look at Theriot's lack of power and automatically think the guy can't hit generally, which isn't true. He puts good swings on balls and uses the field.

As for Theriot's home/road split, I don't think it means as much as it does for power hitters. Theriot's hits aren't popflys that turn into HR with the wind at Wrigley.

I thought you were talking about the actual BABIP number, AA. I agree that fewer balls in play same BABIP means lower BA.

Big, Young's an outlier and that's just two years, partly facilitated by the fact that he's an extreme fly ball pitcher. And .270 is closer to .285 than .245.

dave, I hope the Cubs make decisions based on half-years worth of data.

There are component park factors

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor?season=2008

Wrigley inflates pretty much every offensive category depending on the year. It's not just the fences. Weather, altitude, the batter's eye and whatever else can be factors.

A NOTE TO TIM, you are a hypocrite... You leave people calling other people idiots on your site, which means the same thing as calling someone an ass, this isn't church and everyone who puts "****" instead of the word... They make sure you know what it means, like F*ck You!! Guess what the missing letter is!! Yeah, if you don't know that you are brain dead, but you leave those posts up, comical!

In your attempt to cleanup your site, I've noticed (arguments with them or not) you've alienated the real fans, instead of these Sunday game watchers who know nothing... For a site that's supposed to be cutting edge for information and have informed discussions, you've sold out, not in a Platinum selling Load/Reload Metallica way, but more like a Garth Brooks/Vanilla Ice changing genres so that they can try something "new and exciting" type of way...

What this site was good at was being a little low brow comment wise, but no different than the conversations that would go on at your local bar between fans from competing teams... Now you've tried to take the pub to Rodeo (pronounced Row-Day-O, in case you were wondering it wasn't a southern reference) Drive and it just doesn't fit... Kind of sad really...

I'd take a slang/krass/crude verbal tirade over this "well, John, I respectfully disagree with that form of thinking as it's highly illogical that such would occur... A more sound way of thinking might lead to a resolution that is more likely considered fair by the two parties involved." Sorry, but nobody wants to read what equates to 20 pages per topic of that preacher crap, they come on here half the time to see the sh*t (happy??) talking that goes on because it's entertaining...

I hate AriGoldisaG, yet still I get a kick out of reading his attempts at insulting others... Just because a couple people come crying to you, doesn't mean you did the right thing by doing something about it... In most cases the kid that started it got popped in the beak on a counter punch and then goes and cries to the authority figure, but you are rewarding this start a fight then cry when you get hurt mentality...

By the way, you let his (Ari) little ass say whatever he wants as long as he uses "****". It's really funny because anyone that has half a brain should be offended that you would draw the line where you have, as if to say your viewer base is too stupid to know the difference between how I say it and how Ari says it...

You've definitely pulled a Microsoft with your website, not only did you make poor "upgrades", but now you are forcing it down the throats of your consumers with no regard for what the reaction might be to this... I mean you had the XP of baseball blogging sites and decided that in all your egotism, you needed to create a baseball mecca and the end result was Vista...

The problem is that instead of converting to Vista, you won't gain the long standing followers because those are true fans, not the ones on here today and yet you are alienating the other ones as they are looking for other chatting communities... It's like opening the door to another operating system, nobody wants to relearn how to operate their computer, but given the options, they'll go away from MS products, since both require the same amount of effort and they now have a reason to not like MS products with the crap they pulled on taking away XP and it's support system...

Now you are doing the same thing with this site, the only motification you needed to make was getting rid of type key and instead you changed everything else, but yet there's still type key on your site!! It's like having a flat tire and getting your oil changed with your last 40 bucks, yet you're still riding on your rim!

I bet you were the outcast in school, like the water boy/scorekeeper/coach's special assistant when you were in high school and this site is your life because it's your first chance to feel cool... News flash people are on her for the baseball, not because of you, take away baseball and you aren't anything but another talking head... You put up a person about Tim section, which I thought was priceless, talk about self centered, like anyone gives a crap about where you've been or what you do!

As long as my hamburger is done the right way, I don't care where the guy working the drive thru window has been, what he's done, how he lives, or what his goals are, I just want my sandwich and to go... Same with this site, you may be a legend in your own mind, but nobody else shares your thinking... Delete the post, it's the cowardly thing to do, hiding the bad... You should know best how to do that!

"I bet you were the outcast in school, like the water boy/scorekeeper/coach's special assistant when you were in high school and this site is your life because it's your first chance to feel cool... News flash people are on her for the baseball, not because of you, take away baseball and you aren't anything but another talking head... You put up a person about Tim section, which I thought was priceless, talk about self centered, like anyone gives a crap about where you've been or what you do!"

That's the lowest blow ever dude... Maybe YOU were the outcast in highschool... You came on just to bash Tim... How pathetic.

I really like this site so that I don't have to go to every other site to find new rumors. Tim takes time out of HIS day to do this for everyone, so if I were you I'd be grateful.

Baseball"Guru" -

That is the most pathetic post I have ever seen. I'd like to see you start your own website, and see how well you do. You're acting like some child that was the first one to go to a hamburger joint. Now 1,000's of people come there and it's "ruined" and the owner remodeled and you don't like it -- wah wah wah. If you don't want to read about the guy that makes your hamburger, don't click on that link. Just enjoy the (free) hamburger (or go to another restaurant, please!) Particuarly to say that these are not "real fans." Well jus ask my wife, kids, friends, and parents how much of a fan I am. All these people are "the fans." The "real fans" are all-inclusive, including you, I guess.

I think you owe an apology, but that's not my business.

if the cubs really were interested in dealing for khalil, what prospects do the cubs have to trade. We (SD) could really use an outfielder or two, middle infielders, and some speed. So where do the Cubs and Pads match up for a trade?

Why is everyone SO in love with numbers and statistics. As Homer once said, "People can come up with statistics to prove anything. Forty percent of all people know that." LOL.

The main thing to remember when comparing Greene to Theriot is heart. No one can argue the point that Theriot has FAR more heart than does Greene. Think about all the championship teams of the past ten years. Almost all of them had a pesky little player like Theriot who never gives up and plays with maximum effort in every game on every play.

As a 25-year Cubs fan, I know intimately that we (Cubs fans) are more interested in a players' desire and fortitude than any stat you can imagine. You have to want to win and you have to put forth the effort needed to make your team win. It's about love of the great game of baseball. It's about sacrifice. All of which Theriot has in spades and Greene is sorely lacking.

Just imagine where the 2006 Cardinals might have ended up had it not been for Mr. MVP David Eckstein. Surely not a marquee player, but he did the job, did he not? Statistics be damned! Look at the 1997 Florida Marlins. Had it not been for little Craigy Counsell tying game seven with a sac fly and then scoring the winning run in the bottom of the eleventh, there would not have been a first championship for the lowly Marlins and the entire franchise likely would have folded up before the 2003 season ever arrived (which would have been a great break for Mr. Bartman and all Cubs fans).

All I'm trying to say is, don't fall in love with statistics, because they are akin to beauty and only hold value in the eye of the beholder. Heart, desire, sacrifice. These are the attributes of a true warrior. And only warriors win championships.