Red Sox Reach Deals With Bard, Penny

did something happen to mirabelli?

Bard has the worst arm I've ever seen

I have wanted Bard to sign with the Sox all offseason. A catcher who can post a .370-.380 OBP is worth more than any 20 homer catching prospect.

Man,
They got some great players. Have fun in third place red sox's.

Where has RSD been lately.

I don't think this necessarily means Varitek won't be back.

"but bard will replace tek, which is what spooks me..."

Ummm ... no. Non-guaranteed deal hardly suggests permanent solution or someone who they are planning on making the majority of the catching starts.

you cant platoon bard/salty
bard cant catch wakefield and i doubt salty can either

After all the Yankees moves I'd say they're about even with the Sox now but that's hard to tell...

wow,...they gave Penny $5 mil? That's $3 mil less that the Unit and he's more of a known quantity. Not second guessing them but I figured it would be for less money guranteed.

I believe they had Salty catching some knuckleballs in the DWL

Sort of surprising. I wouldn't guess Penny (sub 2.0 K/BB, blah K/9) to be an Epstein sort of guy.

I think this is a smart move for the Sox. Marcel is guessing a 4.25 ERA and a 1.42 WHIP and Bill James says 3.92 ERA and 1.35WHIP next year (though I think those projections will change at Fenway). A pretty solid low risk/high upside pickup for 5th starter at only $5-8MM for the year.

I do think the Sox need to do something about the offense, and in a more major way than people expect. You don't know what a full year without Manny will do to the team, and I'm not sure Papi will ever be like he was 2 years ago. Any guesses for further Sox moves?

Bard seems like a bargaining chip for tek. At this point in teks career he is bardesque minus the game calling mystique.

04Forever: "bard will replace tek, which is what spooks me..."

Naw. Tek will be back, once Boras quits screwing around and admits that no one else will pay him and give up a #1. In the mean time, this shows them that the Sox have other options.

Unless, of course, the Yankees make him a huge offer just out of spite, since they'll only have to give up a 4th round pick or something.

"you cant platoon bard/salty
bard cant catch wakefield and i doubt salty can either"

Concern troll continues to be concerned.

A pretty solid low risk/high upside pickup for 5th starter at only $5-8MM for the year.
________________________

You really think Penny is worth $5 mil guaranteed?

I do think the Sox need to do something about the offense, and in a more major way than people expect. You don't know what a full year without Manny will do to the team, and I'm not sure Papi will ever be like he was 2 years ago. Any guesses for further Sox moves?

Posted by: cdg02001 | December 28, 2008 at 08:18 PM

cdg,

I have no idea why people think this. Jason Bay doesn't produce like Manny but in 3/5 seasons he has 30 HR's and 100 RBI's.

Toss in he is the Sox #6 hitter and the Sox are doing fine on offense. Single-handed virtually no one can produce like Manny when he is on his game, but top to bottom the Sox lineup with a potentially healthy Ortiz/Lowell has to still be considered one of the top 10 offenses in baseball.

Remember, the Sox winning % went up when Manny left last year. Plus, when was the last time the Sox got a "full" season out of Manny anyways?

As for Penny. love the move. Low risk, high upside move.

Bard "nonguranteed" is a great move too. Now the Sox have an potential 5th starter allowing them to be more open minded to trading a younger arm for a catcher and Bard makes them appear less desperate but they can just cut him if they manage to pull off the trade they want for a real catcher.

yeah im a troll by pointing out bard cant catch wakefield, he tried and failed and doubting that a young kid has experience with a knuckleball.

If teams factor a pitcher is worth a million per win then Theo believes he's good for at least 5 wins. Of course there have been exceptions, Igawa & Pavano to name a few.

1)First off congratulations Boston fans on signing two guys who are low risk high reward type players. Personally i would have liked to see Brad Penny in a Mets uniform but good luck to you guys.

2) I think Bard is going to be brought in just to backup whoever the Red Sox are going to pursue next at catcher. Will he get a fair share of games behind the plate and maybe even more, i think so, but to say he is the starter after them signing him to a contract that doesn't even guarantee a major league deal is far fetched.

3) Mikelovesbaseball94
That team actually isn't that far from being a reality but somethings you suggested are questionable. For instance i understand where you are coming from concerning Dontrelle Willis but to give him the #5 spot after he was getting bombed in A ball? i dont think so. A salary dump invovling Hideki Matsui going to the Tigers makes a lot of sense to me and it allows the Tigers to shop Marcus Thames. Secondly Manny Ramirez would be a great fit for the Yankees(personally i think he is going to say FU to the Red Sox and sign there) but the chances of them acquiring him are quite slim unless they can trade Swisher and dump Matsui (which is possible)

"You really think Penny is worth $5 mil guaranteed?"

Yeah. Especially for a team like the Red Sox. He's been a dominant first half pitcher with the Dodgers. For some reason he seems to slow down after that. He was throwing 94-95 in September with limited control that is probably due to rust.
As for the talk about his numbers against the AL East, he won't have a 3.00 ERA, but it's not like he'll be 6.00. He's an above average pitcher, and relatively close ERA+ wise over his career to Burnett (106 to 111). And in 2007 his ERA+ was 151, higher than any ERA+ Burnett has ever put up. Both are injury risks, so would you rather pay $5M for one year or $16.5M for 5 years for potentially the same pitcher?

I think Manny already said FU to the front office when he acted like a clown his final year here. I personally think he's signing with the Dodgers if Cashman doesn't get involved.

I think the biggest question is who can stay the healthiest. All of these big names don't do you much good on the DL. I also think it's foolish to write off established professional athletes after an injury. These guys have all been hurt in their careers and you'd have to be an idiot to think that 3-4 months of rest and aggressive rehab won't heal Lowell, Papi, Penny, or Burnett and Posada for that matter.

Gonna miss penny, hope he comes back strong in boston.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/75916-red-sox-pick-up-tim-wakefields-option

Wake's option was picked up by the Red Sox back in October (personally i didn't like it, but because i didn't like it and the Red Sox did it, i loved it)

By my count, the Penny signing fills up the 40 man. If they bring anyone else in, someone will have to go.

"Wake's option was picked up by the Red Sox back in October (personally i didn't like it, but because i didn't like it and the Red Sox did it, i loved it)"

Wake's ERA+ over past 5 seasons: 100, 109, 103, 100, 112.

Paying a league average pitcher $4M every year is a bargain. In fact, last season, the Red Sox paid Wake $4M to throw up a 112 ERA+. The Yankees just paid a pitcher $16.5M for the next 5 years who put up a 105 ERA+ last year.

the "young kid" was referring to Salty from the Rangers. read the whole convo, the conversation was about platooning Bard/Salty NOT Kotteras

Oh sorry Zack. Personally I think they should forget about the defensively challenged Salty and give one of the kids a chance with an able backup plan like Bard.
But, I don't know if they are ready yet. I guess we'll see. I wonder what the Yanks are going to do with their aging catcher going forward?

Brad Penny in 09.....8-14 / 5.23

Oh yeah. Love the Wake option. He's gotta be good for at least .500 pitching again this year. And that's damn good in this league at $4m.

Yanksfan, I like the Brad Penny signing because it's all about upside. I'm not sure I like spending $5m per se, but I think it's infinitely better than spending the kind of dough Lowe is wanting for a 2nd tour of duty in Beantown.

Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. It was a great move to get Colon last year. He did better than expected for a #5 for the most part. Schilling was another great 2008 signing that just didn't pan out primarily because he didn't pitch elsewhere. But it was a one year deal and that's it.

That's better than Matt Clement or Carl Pavano type nightmares as well. And the beauty of this signing is we don't really NEED Penny. He's insurance against one of the other starters going down. Masterson, Clay, and Bowden are all potential #5s as well (of course we might not have one of those guys in a month or two).

But that said, you tell me Yanksfan, who would be a better signing for a 1 year deal at a 5 mill kinda price if not someone like Penny?

And a rotation lead by Beckett, Lester and DiceK is absolutely nothing like the 2008 Yankees. Beckett was injured at the end of the season, so he wasn't himself. He hurt his oblique and the injury is not expected to hinder him in '09. Lester proved to be the most consistent starter on the team, a true workhorse capable of dominating outings. And DiceK as the #3 went 18-3. Wake as a cheap #4 capable of 180 innings and around 15 wins. If Penny proves healthy, he's a solid #5 and if not, they have other options to step in. Meanwhile the '08 Yanks had an aging, yet effective Moose, a rather ineffective Pettitte, and a whole lot of young (Joba, Hughes, Kennedy), journeymen (Aceves, Ponson) and innefective starters (Rasner, Pavano). The injury to Wang really hurt, but even still, the comparison is not even close.

I like these signings for the Sox, particularly Penny. I figure if he stays healthy enough, that it's fair to expect an average season from him.

Seeing as how we didn't have much to fix this offseason (relative to some other teams), I'd say this takes care of some uncertainty with the starting rotation, and also helps with the catching situation, although obviously I'm sure this isn't the only move they'll make in regard to that.

I never woulda guessed a year ago that going into 09 the Yanks would have a better rotation than the sox but that seemingly is the case

Yeah Bloody, keep in mind I'm not dogging the signing, just in my mind, before they released the details, I assumed it was for like 1 mil or 2 mil w/ lot's of incentives that's all.

Beckett is a question mark because in regular season play he's had one true ace like season (don't give me post season stats because nobody can argue he's crazy good in the playoffs). Dice-K is a risky pitcher because he walks so many somehow with the bases loaded he held opponents to something like a .220 BA but if he does that season in season out he will wear down (he gets his pitch count well over 100 in 6 innings most games) and people will burn him eventually. But until then he's probably your best chance to win games. Lesters innings will be lowered, and while he proved to be a beast let's see how his second season in the bigs goes, but 'd bet on a good go round again. After that, Wake is a good bargain but he's only eh, and Penny to me is a goof low risk, but I dont seeing him succeeding very much. Something to the tune of 9-13 5+ ERA is realistic he's coming from the worst division in baseball and a pitchers ballpark to the best and down the lines a serious hitters ballpark.

"I never woulda guessed a year ago that going into 09 the Yanks would have a better rotation than the sox but that seemingly is the case"

How? The Yanks signed Sabathia and Burnett. Sabathia is a great pitcher. Burnett is slightly better than league average, comparable to Wakefield. Joba isn't going to pitch more than 130 innings. Joba, Hughes and Burnett are injury risks. Hughes and Kennedy haven't succeeded in the majors. And they lost Mussina's 132 ERA+, getting slightly better with Sabathia.

I think Lester is a very safe bet to repeat and become the ace of the staff. Beckett needs to come out with a vengence and show his 2007 form...but the Yankees also need that with Wang. Wakefield will eat innings with an ERA around 4. And Dice-K isn't the best pitcher to watch, but he gets the job done with low hit totals and very low ERA. Penny will anchor the 5th spot in the rotation and the young guys are the insurance policy in case something happens to any starter.

We are talking about the same Brad Penny -- the Brad Penny who's control has gotten worse, who's dominance (K/9) has gotten worse, and who had always faded in the second half.

I also think that AndrewYF phrased it perfectly, "If this completes the 2009 Boston rotation, then it's a bad move. If they sign Lowe in addition to this, then it's a good move."

Lester over Wang?? thats junk, come on dude. Tell me what you base that on??

"Burnett has to stay healthy if he does he can be ace caliber"

How can you make this statement? Burnett is NOT a dominant pitcher. He's above average. His career ERA+ is 111. His top ERA+ in the AL is 119, 122 for his career. Please differentiate between reality and hype.

"Lester over Wang?? thats junk, come on dude. Tell me what you base that on??"

Lester's ERA+ last season: 144 (first year he wasn't dealing with that whole cancer thing in the majors).

Wang high ERA+: 124.

Sounds like it's not much of a stretch to say Lester is the better pitcher.

except wang won 19 games back to back, Lester threw 230+ ip last year after 81, 63 the years before. you expect lester to have the same season or better?

lol

Someone compare yankee lineup to red sox lineup,just for fun.

There is no scenario I think where Lowe is a good acquisition for the Sox, imo. He had some good moments in the 2004 season, but I also remember many, many outings of very "#3-#4" pitcher caliber. And to think of investing a minimum 3/45 for the guy just turns my stomach.

In addition, unless we're trading away a few of these guys, I'm not sure why we'd sign a pitcher like Lowe for 3 or 4 years when we have Clay, Bowden, and Masterson at or close to major league ready.

FWIW, I think Epstein and Co. must really see something in Clay. I think his value is as low as it's going to be right now. Maybe he will get close to the ace people were salivating over last year. But maybe Clay for a top tier young catcher isn't such a bad idea.

"Beckett and Burnett have the same career ERA, same WHIP, same BAA, basically same W/L

so if Beckett is ace caliber, so is Burnett"

Beckett's ERA+ last 3 years: 98, 145, 115.

Burnett's ERA+ last 3 years: 115, 119, 105.

Beckett is the better pitcher. Sorry.

"except wang won 19 games back to back, Lester threw 230+ ip last year after 81, 63 the years before. you expect lester to have the same season or better?"

Wins are worthless when talking about pitchers. And Lester threw 81 and 63 innings because he had cancer. Wang only threw 95 innings last season because of an actual injury.

fine give Wang no credit for 19 wins back to back seasons.
Still didn't answer whetehr or not you think the Innings will effect Lester this year?

AJ & Beckett are very close in their numbers, cannot deny that.

Zack it's just my opinion, like I said it's no disrespect to Wang a personal favorite of mine, but I want to see him pitch. I don't expect Lester to put up quite as good of numbers as last season just because the Red Sox will probably cut his innings a bit. Wang is in no way soft, he has a sinker that is like hitting a bowling ball Lester is very good but filthy is a stretch he's still relatively unproven, they're both very good but have some question marks in my opinion. Can Wang bounce back, and can Lester repeat last season?

Not to dispute any of the numbers arguing here, but did DodgersBruin really just say Lester was limited because of cancer, whereas Wang had an "actual" injury (linsfrac fragment)?

Really?

and if the no credit thing is to me I give him plenty of credit for the 19 wins twoce in a row, he's the only person in the MLB to do that in the same stretch.

"Wins are worthless when talking about pitchers" - dodgersbruins no, no wins are everything when talking about a pitcher, it's their job to win