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« Royals Add Five To Spring Training Invite List | Main | Valverde, Astros Reach One-Year Deal »
Dunn Back To Reds Unlikely; Reds Looking At OFs
The Cincinnati Reds are still looking for outfield help, and a left-handed bat isn't off the table.
Mark Sheldon of MLB.com wrote that much of the Reds' search has focused on a right-handed bat, but since the market is drying up, the Reds are willing to look toward the other side of the plate.
"We're open minded about it," Reds general manager Walt Jocketty told Sheldon.
One slugger who could be on that list is former Red Adam Dunn, who was traded to the Arizona Diamondbacks in August 2008, though Jocketty is pessimistic.
"I doubt it," Jocketty told Sheldon when asked about the possibility of Dunn returning to Cincinnati. "Especially at the price he's looking for."
One name Sheldon listed was right fielder Bobby Abreu, but Jocketty said he hasn't recently spoken with Abreu's agent.
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No way the Reds bring back Dunn.
He's basically a symbol of their suckiness of the last 5-7 years or so.
Clearly fans had gotten frustrated with his streakiness, strikeouts, and lumbering defense in left field.
I think the Reds would be better served going after Abreu, simply because of what Dunn means to the fans.
Even though he would be a decent fit, as awkward as it would be.
Posted by: scribbletone | January 12, 2009 at 07:00 PM
Abreu would be great for the Reds. If they get him I could seriously see them being in contention. His veteran leadership would go a long way.
Posted by: d32123 | January 12, 2009 at 07:13 PM
why would dunn want to go back to cincy? after that 100MM talk there's no way he would swallow his pride and return for less than 1/3 of that.
Posted by: msk86 | January 12, 2009 at 07:16 PM
I think Ordonez or Dye make the most sense for the Reds. The Reds have a decent farm system and the Tigers or ChiSox should be motivated to deal.
Posted by: MickS | January 12, 2009 at 07:44 PM
and you want Abreu... who is lazy and who's defense ranked the worst by RF's
He may not be a defensive wiz but to call him lazy is just stupid.
Posted by: d32123 | January 12, 2009 at 08:03 PM
Resign Dunn? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
Sign Abreu instead.
Dunn fans ejaculate all over themselves about his .380 On Base Percentage. Big deal. Abreu's CAREER OBP is .405.
People get hot over Dunn scoring 100 Runs a year (actually, he has scored 100 or more Runs in only 3 of the last 5 years). Last year, he led ALL of MLB with 122 Walks and hit 40 Home Runs but only scored 79 Runs; shows what a lack of speed will do. Meanwhile, Abreu has scored 100 or more Runs in 8 of the last 10 seasons.
People get wet between the legs because Dunn drives in 100 RBI's a year. Well, Dunn has hit 40 or mroe Home Runs a year for five straight years but has only driven in 100 or more RBI's in 4 of those 5 years with a high of 106. While Abreu has driven in 100 or more RBI's for six straight years and 7 of the last 8. His high has been 110 while his high in Hoem Runs has been 31.
Walks? Abreu has Walked 100 or more times in 8 of the past 10 years.
Dependability? Abreu has played in 150 or more Games 11 straight seasons. During that time, he has had 170 or more Hits in 9 of those 11 seasons.
Abreu has stolen 20 or more bases for 10 straight years. That leads ALL active Major League players. So, while Dunn gets Walked and is an anchor on First Base, Abreu has the ability to Steal Second, go First to Third on Singles, score from Second on Singles and score from First on Doubles.
From 2006 to 2008 against Left Handed Pitching, combined, Dunn hit .237 with 80 Runs scored, 30 Home Runs and 77 RBI. While Abreu hit .292 with 78 Runs scored, 10 Home Runs and 77 RBI's.
Against Right Handed Pitchers during that same time period, Dunn hit .248 with 199 Runs scored, 90 Home Runs and 221 RBI's. While Abreu hit .292 with 243 Runs scored, 41 Home Runs and 231 RBI's.
So, Abreu holds his own against Left Handed Pitching and outperforms Dunn against Right Handed Pitching. Best of all, Abreu does NOT need to hit a Home Run to be productive. This means he can drive in Runs at GASP just as easily as on the Road; a place where the Reds have had trouble scoring Runs and winning Games the last eight years.
Posted by: ctownboy | January 12, 2009 at 08:05 PM
Surely Juan Pierre is available.
He plays the game right. Can bunt, move runners over, steal a base.
It seems almost too obvious.
Posted by: BraunHolio | January 12, 2009 at 08:19 PM
I 2008, at age 34, Abreu put up better stats than 28 year old Adam Dunn.
For those cumbing all overthemselves wanting to bring Dunn back and who don't want Abreu, I have given you some stats in another post to think about.
Well, here are some more.
From 2004 (Dunn's breakout year) to 2008, here are some of Dunn's stats. You know, the ones his fans beat people over the head with and saying he is a "Run producer" and a "no brainer" to sign.
Runs - 491
RBI - 501
HR - 206
Walks - 557
Now here is that "lesser" player, Bobby Abreu:
Runs - 543
RBI - 515
HR - 105
Walks -525
So, Abreu has hit 101 (!!!!!) fewer Home Runs and Walked 32 fewer times than Dunn, combined, over those five years BUT has scored 52 MORE Runs and driven in 14 MORE RBI's.
Also, he has done this while playing his Home Games in Philly (NOT very fan friendly, even for the Home team) and New York.
So, coming to Cincinnati and playing in a hitter friendly park, in front of fans who are NOT as mean and nasty and batting against weaker pitchers, I think he could do very well.
Also, if a Reds youngster shows he is ready to play at the Major League level during 2009 then Abreu could be used as a trading chip next year when the Free Agent Outfield market isn't going to be as strong or numerous as this year.
Posted by: ctownboy | January 12, 2009 at 08:23 PM
Bobby Abreu does fit the Reds very well, but how many years will it take to get him to go to Cincinnati? Obviously the market for corner OF's has tanked, so the amount of money per year will be nowhere close to the 3/48 he wanted. But, at age 35, how long do you afford to sign him?
I think that Abreu is more valuable than Burrell, and would definitely offer 2 years between 18 and 22 mil with an option for a third year that pushes it to 28-30. I don't think he will get an offer that tops it, and I don't htink that would be overpaying a guy that really could be the key to this team competing this season.
Posted by: carolina03 | January 12, 2009 at 08:24 PM
And for those Reds fans out there, how about this three team deal:
Arroyo to Atlanta
Greinke to Cincinnati
Schafer or Hernandez and Rohrbough from Atlanta, along with Frazier and Bailey to KC.
Atlanta gets the mid to back end starter that is a workhorse who is signed for three years.
KC gets two of the Braves and two of the Reds top prospects to rebuild.
Cincy gets another young starter who has proven he can be an ace, and is team controlled for the next two years.
I don't know if that is enough for Greinke or that the Braves would make that deal, just throwing it out there.
Posted by: carolina03 | January 12, 2009 at 08:31 PM
Braunholio,
After the Reds signed Willy Taveras, THAT was my first thought; "if the team was going to waste resources and a roster spot on Willy T then they should have traded for Juan Pierre instead".
Pierre wouldn't have cost much, as far as players go because the Dodgers WANT to get rid of him and they might have even eaten some salary. This is ESPECIALLY true if it meant it would be easier for the Dodgers to sign Manny R.
In each of the seven years before 2008, Pierre had 170 or more Hits per year, 87 or mroe Runs per year, 45 or more Stolen Bases per year and an On Base Percentage of .326 or higher.
Also during those seven years, the lowest amount of Doubles that Pierre hit was 19. Now compare THAT to Willy T's TOTAL Extra Base hits for each of his four years in the Majors: 20, 25, 17 and 18.
So, in an average year, Pierre hits more Doubles than Willy T has total Extra Base Hits.
Posted by: ctownboy | January 12, 2009 at 08:35 PM
"And for those Reds fans out there, how about this three team deal:
Arroyo to Atlanta
Greinke to Cincinnati
Schafer or Hernandez and Rohrbough from Atlanta, along with Frazier and Bailey to KC.
Atlanta gets the mid to back end starter that is a workhorse who is signed for three years.
KC gets two of the Braves and two of the Reds top prospects to rebuild.
Cincy gets another young starter who has proven he can be an ace, and is team controlled for the next two years.
I don't know if that is enough for Greinke or that the Braves would make that deal, just throwing it out there."
That's absurd. Why wouldn't Atlanta just send that package to K.C. for Grienke. Idiotic!
Posted by: MickS | January 12, 2009 at 08:37 PM
The Braves wouldn't send that package to KC b/c Frazier and Bailey play for the Reds farm teams, and it would take all 4 to get Greinke. The only two coming from Atlanta would be Schafer or Hernandez and Rohrbough. And I'm and idiot
Posted by: carolina03 | January 12, 2009 at 08:52 PM
*an idiot
Posted by: carolina03 | January 12, 2009 at 08:53 PM
Yeah! You're "and" idiot and over-valuing Arroyo in the extreme.
Posted by: MickS | January 12, 2009 at 08:57 PM
nady for arroyo and bailey.
Posted by: patrick | January 12, 2009 at 10:16 PM
No way in hell we trade a solid starter and a prospect with a high ceiling for one year of Xavier Nady. And also, KC would need more than that for Grienke. There is no way Jocketty would bring back Dunn. And also, Juan Pierre makes waaaaaaaay more money than Willy T. I know he produces more, but not like 10mm a year more.
Posted by: CharlieHustle | January 12, 2009 at 11:04 PM
If I were the Reds, I'd be going after Abreu for sure. Yeah, he sucks in the field and is afraid of walls, but he still has a good arm and is very effective with the bat. A good veteran bat who drives in 100 runs every year would be a good fit for them if they do indeed loose Dunn.
Posted by: Agent | January 12, 2009 at 11:35 PM
Ctown I don't agree to often w/ your post but I do agree about Abreu, he is the bat we need. High avg, obp, good power, and pitch selection it would be good if we could land him for a 2 yr. deal maybe 3. Look how far Burrells price came down(2yr./16 m). With this economy hopefully we will land him for a bargain price like Burrell.
On the other hand I dont agree about trading for Pierre instead of picking up Willy. At 7 more mil a yr. Even if the dodgers picked up some of his salary he would be way over paid and he cant even throw to 2nd from centerfield. I'll take my chances w/ Willy.
Posted by: 19jeff83 | January 12, 2009 at 11:51 PM
My point about Juan Pierre was that if the Reds were going to waste money and a roster spot on a speedy Outfielder with little to no Extra Base Hit power then they should have just gone after Pierre instead of Willy T.
Heck, if truth be told, I would much rather have given Norris Hopper a shot and see what he could do in Center Field and with 500 or more At Bats during a season. I mean, he is a fast Outfielder wiht little to no power and he makes far less than what Willy T is set to make.
Willy T is only getting paid by the Reds because somebody gave him a chance at hte Major League level four years ago. Since 2009 looks like it is going to be yet another losing season, I don't see why the Reds just didn't give Hopper a shot and see what he could do over a full year.
Posted by: ctownboy | January 13, 2009 at 01:23 AM
So Abreu had more runs and RBI the last few years while hitting between Derek Jeter and Alex Rodriguez than Dunn did hitting between Brandon Phillips, Edwin Encarnacion and the fading memory of Ken Griffey Jr? Abreu must be the better player - what other explanation could there be?
At any rate, even if we accept that Abreu is, oh, I dunno, maybe 5% more productive than Dunn, that's not changing the Reds' fortunes. The Reds have average 88 losses the last six years with Dunn, including exactly 88 last year. Put Abreu in left, say he has a typical year, and what? 86 losses? 85? Cincinnati still has Willy Taveras in center, Jerry Hairston Jr and/or Jeff Keppinger at short, a whole lot of crossed fingers with the pitching staff, and 54 games against the Cubs, Cards and Astros.
The 2009 Reds are more than one Bobby Abreu away from contention. I'd just as soon they don't invest multiple years in a 35-year old outfielder who isn't significantly better than the guy they just got rid off.
Posted by: Vitamin T | January 13, 2009 at 02:32 AM
Vitamin T,
I wouldn't say that games against the Cards and Astros are really that intimidating. Cubs yes. You failed to mention that the Reds also have two of the most wanted young hitters as well, in Bruce and Votto. E6 While blowing in the field showed some coming out with the bat last year as well.
Many analyst are saying the Reds could turn a lot of heads this year with their young talent. Yes their hoping their pitching repeats/improves, but isn't all teams? Last years pitching staff was pretty good and that was with a horrible injury plagued year from their best starter in Harang. When the market is allowing players like Burrell be signed for a definite Bargain why not take a chance and sign a player like Abreu? His numbers would probably even improve a bit in GABP.
The only way I don't take a chance on a player like Abreu in this low market is if I'm saving all the salary I can and going into a bidding war with it all on the line for Matt Holliday. I don't see that happening.
Posted by: dphill314 | January 13, 2009 at 06:45 AM
CTown - not only have you redefined your inability to make a logical argument, you do it with some really disgusting language. How about you chill out?
The stats you use when comparing Dunn and Abreu are for the most part meaningless.
RBI has nothing to do with a player's own offensive ability. It is far too dependent upon the team's OBP. Comparaing the Reds' OBP to the Yankees' OBP is laughable.
Even still, over the past three years, Abreu has just 10 more RBI than Dunn. Even with 175 more ABs with runners on base during that time. That's way lower than expected.
The only favorable consideration is that Abreu could probably be had on a one year deal with a mutual option while Dunn is sitting on a 3 year deal.
As for your Juan Pierre over Willy Taveras argument. Nothing needs to be said.
Posted by: davidmp2 | January 13, 2009 at 09:09 AM
Ok if there is very little difference between Dunn and Abreau then negotiate with both players and see who is willing to take the lowball offer first. I am not completely sold that this is going to be a losing season yet cause we haven't played a single game yet. I personally want Dye but I don't know what the White Sox want back in return. I am guessing the cost was too high that is why we don't have him. I also am not entirely afraid to start Dickerson in LF. He had a pretty decent time once he was called up.
I don't know if you guys remember but Cincy didn't have a 40+ homer guy the last time we won the world series. We had speed and good defense and some guys who could hit 20 to 30 homers. My point is Votto, EE, and Bailey may produce enough home run power. Now on the flip side Dye or Abreau, or even Dunn back would provide some nice pop.
If we resigned Dunn would they move Votto to LF. and have Dunn play First perhaps?
Posted by: JayTheRed | January 13, 2009 at 09:27 AM
Oops I put Bailey on my list of power hitters. That should have been Bruce. Sorry about that.
Posted by: JayTheRed | January 13, 2009 at 09:31 AM
The Reds trade Frazier and Bailey? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAH
If I were the Reds I won't trade for anybody. Todd Frazier is going to be our right-handed power bat and he is about a year away. Why trade all of our young talent now just to move up one season. No thanks. If a good outfielder becomes available, and I believe one will during spring training or by the all-star break, then the Reds can get one then for a lot cheaper than two of our best prospects.
Posted by: BigRedOne | January 13, 2009 at 10:49 AM
bigredone - its so ridiculous the way reds fans think all of our prospects are going to perform in the big leagues. you cannot assume anything and thats why the reds are going to fight for 5th place again.
Posted by: Peter | January 13, 2009 at 11:04 AM
I am perfectly content with 5th place this year, cause come 2010, the Reds will be contending for the pennant. The same Reds fans who were so esctatic to get rid of Josh Hamilton also wanted to trade away Joey Votto. Thank the lord Walt Jocketty is in charge and put the kabosh on that idiot idea. He is also smart enough to know Todd Frazier is going to be a stud, why do you think so many teams have been mentioning his name in trades? Like I said, be patient, and the price on corner outfielders in the trade market is going to drop. No reason to give up our top prospect who's only a year away.
Posted by: BigRedOne | January 13, 2009 at 11:15 AM
The Reds should just sign Abreu and call it a day. What's going to end up happening is the same thing that happens every year. We sit back and wait for a bargain that never comes, all the while watching the top FAs get snapped up like free dope at an Ozzy concert.
After Burrell's signing, the market is set. It's not going to get any better closer to spring training...it's going to be non-existent. Too many clubs have the same needs the Reds have.
If the ownership is truly trying to contend, they're going to have to sign a free agent. Period. Enough about giving up prospects...enough about trading away talent.
Dye would involve a trade...Nady would involve a trade...Dunn would involve a lobotomy..and Ramirez would involve a record Brink's heist. The choice is clear and simple in my mind. We could probably land Abreu for about the same as it would have cost for Baldelli or Burrell.
We waited for the price to go down and the baseball world is laughing at us for it....again.
Enough is way more than enough. For the first time in years, the money is there. Spend it!
Posted by: George Settles | January 13, 2009 at 12:28 PM
WOW......
Some of you guys are just out right way off on this one. I wouldnt mind seing dunn back here, but on that hand abreu is not all that bad as a 1 yr tops 2 yr guy on this team.
Of course we all go by the stats, thats baseball, thats why we keep them ! But with what Abreu has/hasnt done is still not really comparable to what Dunn has/hasnt done. Dunn was playing with a group of no ones until last yr. Griffey (ouch I am hurt again) JR but nothing else. No power guys no speedy guys (freel!) noone who he could at crucial times that would be on for him to belt in a big run. Like I said though stats are what they are (nice job with those btw).
A trade with the Yankees...
I dont know if we should but it would be for the best if we would. swisher or Nady ( I like Nady better) both could be very productive with the long ball in such a small ball park. Nady has played here and has done well, but to want Aaroyo and a top prospect, thats just the Yankees being the big bully again. Aaroyo shouldnt be avail to anyone unless they was swinging back an end of the rotaion guy back to us. I dont want to over value him here but he will be a very crucial part for our rotation especially if Harang isnt 100%.. So something like Bailey and Hopper and a low end prospect. I doubt they would even concider something like thisbut I think if we gave more than this we would be stupid!
Willy Taveras ....... Come on your honestly gonna say that old man Pierre is better than Willy...
Posted by: jrome | January 13, 2009 at 12:37 PM
Peter - The Reds have one of the deepest farm systems in baseball. Can you expect All-Star performances? No. But you can and should expect top prospects to contribute at the big league level. Should the Brewers have gone out and signed an expensive LF because, in the minor leagues, Braun was unproven? What's the sense in spending 40 million on a LF when Frazier (3B/LF), Votto (1B/3B/LF), Alonso (1B) and EdE (1B/3B/LF) are all fighting over those three positions? Why spend 56 million on Dunn when you can have Frazier or Votto in LF for the next five years at a discount?
Posted by: davidmp2 | January 13, 2009 at 12:45 PM
Why would anyone in Cincy want Dunn back on the team, he can't play the field, he's slow, he strikeouts around 200 times a year, and he always has a bad average. Even if he hits 40 homeruns a year it's no good if he cant contribute any other way
Posted by: BaseBallFan_08 | January 13, 2009 at 02:52 PM
Yeah, I think Abreu will do better in front of fans who are not as mean to him. good one ctown.
Posted by: phantomork | January 13, 2009 at 03:25 PM
Myself I still think Hal McCoy will give in and drive up to Chitown... And personally bring Dye to Cincy, He'll fill Jocko in on what he needs to send in return to consummate the deal when he arrives.
But We need to get it done. The upscale season ticket holders are getting cold feet with all this bargain basement slight of hand...
Hell I can see those kids in Dayton or Noga or even Louis...ville. and still waste money..
I swear if they don't get a mean ass hitter to stir the pot... I'm gonna take Buffy, Monique and Elizibeth..And go to the US open for a six week forget about it Dave Sabbatical...
So somebody put down the pinochle cards and get on with it. Or this money wast'in fool ain't doin it again..
Send Hal up there after DYe... Or Nady...
Or better yet...Figure out someway of alternatin the pieces and coming up with Garret Atkins.
That boy can pound the BBall.
Now we may need the give them Rocko's Encarnocion and that little attitude problem that throws 212 mph...(sometimes) OH.. Bailly.
And throw in what ever else they want..
Atkins has MVP potentual...And will have a decent outfielder to back him up at third... Sometimes he boots one on occassion... But he's getting better.
Hell he already better than EE.. OR just get Manny and be done with it...
My first Reds season was when they wasted their time even driven to Baltimore to Kill them clumsy Birds..
That dumb Brooks Robinson and Boog Powell.. Palmer Cueller and Frank Robey...
To this day I still can't see how they tormented my BIg Red Machine..Hell at 10 yrs old I didn't get it ...That scared me for life... So at any rate I'm Crazy..
But if we don't have a promising offensive team come ticket time. One dummy is gonna waste a bunch of money on something else.. Maybe six of em.. Damn its good to be the king..
Maybe I'll just get my Bengals Box back...I think they bounce back next year.. Marvin said so..
Set in there and catch the reddies on the tube while I keep the Fillies step'n and fetch'n..
Get us someone players Jocko or I'm gonna Bolt and take 8 of em with me.
Can we also try for some new free agent help in the dinner club... I'll donate....OUT
Posted by: olbuzz | January 14, 2009 at 03:38 AM