Cliff Lee Rumors: Wednesday

9:25pm: An AL GM told ESPN.com's Buster Olney that he believes the Twins could acquire Lee with a package built around prospect Wilson Ramos. Rival GMs believe the Rangers may be better off holding onto their prospects than acquiring Lee.

4:15pm: The Mariners have not started making counter offers for Lee, according to ESPN.com's Buster Olney. Rival executives remind Olney that the Mariners may want to deal soon, since an injury would deflate Lee's trade value (all Twitter links)

3:37pm: The Mets, Yankees, Rangers and Phillies appeared to be the only teams scouting Lee last night, according to Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports. The Twins and Dodgers were among the interested teams that did not attend, but it is early and Lee is a known commodity, so the lack of scouts hardly means there's a lack of interest.

10:11am: The Mariners will require a blue-chip prospect in a Cliff Lee trade, reports Joel Sherman of the New York Post, even though the last two Lee trades may not have included one.  Sherman suggests the Mets want Lee badly, while the Yankees would just like the Ms to "keep them posted."

Sherman explains that the Mariners like, but don't love, Mets pitching prospect Jenrry Mejia.  He feels that a Mets trade would have to be built around Mejia or Wilmer Flores.  The Mets are willing to trade Flores in a Lee deal, reports Matthew Cerrone of MetsBlog.  They're reluctant to part with other top prospects.  The Mets would like to trade for a starting pitcher as soon as possible, but Cerrone says the Mariners prefer to wait until after the All-Star break to trade Lee.

From the Yankees side, Sherman recommends they make Jesus Montero available.  They've done so before when Lee and Roy Halladay were on the trade market.  Sherman also notes that the Mariners like Yankees Double A second baseman David Adams.  Baseball America ranked Adams 22nd among Yankees prospects heading into the season, and he sports a .309/.393/.507 line at Trenton.  Should the Yanks prefer to pursue Lee as a free agent, Bill Madden of the New York Daily News learned that old friend C.C. Sabathia would be happy to help recruit.

In a longer blog post, Sherman elaborates on what Lee would mean for the Mets, what the Mariners will require, and how prospects are overvalued these days.


239 Responses to Cliff Lee Rumors: Wednesday Leave a Reply

  1. Please mets trade meija+a few other guys!!! Cliff Lee is a sure thing. Meija is not. Plus even if they can’t extend Lee in the offseason, they get two draft picks if he goes somewhere else with which they can replace meija. This is a perfect scenario for the mets. Lee would do really well in Citi Field and a 1-2-3 of Lee, Pelfrey and Santana sounds pretty darn good. If they get Lee I believe they win the division. It will also be fun to see a Lee vs Halladay matchup!

  2. RADIO_ROB 5 years ago

    trade some of our farm system gems, with bright futures, for a guy who will make 10 to 15 starts & bolt for the Bronx? NO WAY!

    • Ken 5 years ago

      As an M’s fan, I’d prefer that your Mets don’t trade for Lee. Seattle needs a couple of big-time bats more than it does pitching.

      • I don’t want the Mets to trade for Lee either, I like our prospects.

        • bigpelflikesike123 5 years ago

          Do you like takahashi pitching every 5 days? For that matter do you like 5-5 johan santana pitching every 5 days? We do not have a legitimate ace right now and expecting ted lily or fausto carmona to do anything is just stupid. I think met fans are content on making the playoffs… well i want a world series and that’s exactly what lee will do make us big time world series contenders

          • iwishihadaclue 5 years ago

            So then Lee leaves and how does our rotation look in 2011? When Meija could’ve been a part of 2011..you just traded him for a chance to get into ONE World Series. Lee leaves we’ll have 2 holes in the rotation..oh wait, we can always use Maine and Ollie again. That’s been working out great.

          • I’d rather not think of winning a World Series RIGHT NOW, however, if the Mets can trade F-Mart, Holt and someone not named Flores, Havens, Kirk, Mejia, Tejada, Niese, Parnell, or Familia it’ll be a good trade.

            I’m happy with the opportunities Takahashi and Santana gives the team to win. I also DO NOT want Lilly or Carmona. I’d rather have Haren to be honest.

          • I’d rather not think of winning a World Series RIGHT NOW, however, if the Mets can trade F-Mart, Holt and someone not named Flores, Havens, Kirk, Mejia, Tejada, Niese, Parnell, or Familia it’ll be a good trade.

            I’m happy with the opportunities Takahashi and Santana gives the team to win. I also DO NOT want Lilly or Carmona. I’d rather have Haren to be honest.

        • The mets prospects aren’t great if you could trade meija and a few lesser guys for lee I dont see how you dont do it…that would almost secure a playoff spot for the mets

      • Msforever 5 years ago

        Agreed. I still remember the Santana trade. Those prospects were bad.

        • damnitsderek 5 years ago

          Very liberal use of the word “prospect” there.

        • damnitsderek 5 years ago

          Very liberal use of the word “prospect” there.

    • oabmarcus 5 years ago

      Yes way, because your GM don’t think this way. For him, winning a World Series title generate more revenue than having a bunch of young players, it’s not about quantity it’s quality.

    • If they happen to lose him in the offseason they get two draft picks…

  3. RedSoxHuskies94 5 years ago

    It’s the same exact deal with Santana, remember when some people said not to trade Carlos Gomez? Look how the mets turned out, they got a 6 year deal done and now they are a much better team.

    • Exactly, prospects are never a sure thing but Cliff Lee is and even if you only have him for half a year…hes going to get you a bunch of really good starts. Although Santana is struggling this year, that trade has still worked out well for the mets.

    • iwishihadaclue 5 years ago

      Jose Reyes, Mike Pelfrey and F-Mart were the players not to be included. Carlos Gomez was never a factor. Mets were not holding up that deal because of Carlos Gomez

  4. Montero1220 5 years ago

    Who do the Mariners think they are? They’re asking the Mets, Yankees, and Twins for they’re BEST prospects for 12 starts of Lee. Are you serious? The Mariners GM should be happy if he gets one A level guy for Lee. Trading away someone like Jesus Montero or Jenrry Meija for Lee would be a SIN! Montero is a hitting machine and projects to have Mike Piazza numbers while Meija figures to be an above average starter. Trading prospects like this would be cool only if a guarantee was made that Lee would sign an extension with his new team. Message to Mariners from the Yankees : HAND OVER LEE ALREADY!

    • baconslayer09 5 years ago

      Do you not know how these kind of trades work?

      It’s called trying to win-now. As a Yankees fan, you should understand that. When the other guy has something you want or need, you give him what he wants. What you’re trying to do is bully the guy into thinking you’re too good for him.

      That doesn’t ever work, especially since this isn’t grade school. Prospects are prospects. A lot of Yankees fans and in the organization don’t even know if Montero can play the catcher position well enough defensively. If that’s the case, Montero is nothing but a DH or a 1B, which would greatly decrease his value.

      Cliff Lee is a money pitcher, and has been since 2008. The guy is a tier1 pitcher. Remember when the Brewers traded for C.C. two years ago? They gave up probably their best prospect in LaPorta. Where the hell is he now? Hitting .230 for the Indians…

      TOTALLY WORTHWHILE. Seriously, your arrogance is sickening. Take your 27 World Series championships anywhere you want, but the Mariners aren’t going to beg the Yankees to take Cliff Lee off their hands.

    • They are asking for that many prospects because if they lose him to free agency they get two pretty good picks in the draft…

  5. dc21892 5 years ago

    A window for discussing an extension would have to be part of the deal for a big market team, or else they won’t bother. Whoever gets this guy doesn’t want him as a rental, they want him for 6-7 years down the road also. A blue-chip prospect should be given up because this guy can flat out pitch. If teams were smart though, they would hold on to their prospects and not jump into a deal right away. The M’s will get desparate at some point.

    • ReverendBlack 5 years ago

      Craziness. I would so much rather have Lee as a rental than have to sign him LT. Give me the picks to hopefully replenish most of what I lose in acquiring his ace ass. I’ll happily take my chances in the playoffs with Lee & Santana (for example).

  6. What about the reports that the Phillies Assistant to GM Ruben Amaro was in the Bronx last night to watch Cliff Lee pitch????? I swear to god if the Mets get Cliff Lee Ruben will be run out of town faster than Eddie Jordan.

    • darkdonnie 5 years ago

      I read that…I think they were probably scouting Aardsma considering Lidge sucks.

  7. goodbyebaseball 5 years ago

    The M’s get desperate? They have nothing to lose. He walks away at the end of the season and they get draft picks. Seems to me the desperation will be from the contending teams, those who believe an addition of Lee can get them to the top. He is a sure thing (Lee = WINS). Prospects…not so much.

    • ReverendBlack 5 years ago

      Yup. If I’m the Mariners, I play hardball the whole way home. Here’s the list of demands. Call us when you’re ready or good luck with your season.

    • I hope he gets dealt, because the guy deserves to win a ring. Not saying the Mariners should give him away, but in a perfect world, Lee goes to a contender, wins them a championship, and the Mariners re-stock for 2011 and beyond. Win-win.

      It would be unfortunate for him to finish 2010 with Seattle, without any hope for the playoffs. Although it’s certainly possible – look at Alfonso Soriano when he was with the Nationals. They apparently didn’t get offered more than the two draft picks were worth to them, so he didn’t get moved.

    • iwishihadaclue 5 years ago

      I say take the 2 draft picks. As a matter of fact, in the last 10yrs, how many Mariners came thru the system and was drafted? People keep mentioning draft picks like their team will pull out a stud. I don’t follow the Mariners and i could be wrong wrong wrong but the last time you had a drafted player become something special was a long time ago. His name was Ken Griffey Jr. Who have you had since?

      Morrow was a top prospect that you guys drafted and he never became what you guys expected. Then there was that OF you guys included in a trade to the Mets in the deal for Putz. You have 2 stars on your team and none were drafted. Still want those draft picks now?

      • ReverendBlack 5 years ago

        I don’t follow the Mariners and i could be wrong wrong wrong but the last time you had a drafted player become something special was a long time ago. His name was Ken Griffey Jr. Who have you had since?

        They had one other dude who turned out okay. I think his last name was Rodriguez or something. Can’t remember his first name.

        • iwishihadaclue 5 years ago

          How long ago was tho? THE 90’S? lol..I purposely left him off to prove my point. You havent had a star caliber player drafted in over a decade. But you guys keep mentioning draft picks, like you gonna draft the next Albert Pujols

        • iwishihadaclue 5 years ago

          How long ago was tho? THE 90’S? lol..I purposely left him off to prove my point. You havent had a star caliber player drafted in over a decade. But you guys keep mentioning draft picks, like you gonna draft the next Albert Pujols

        • Yankees420 5 years ago

          Seriously, roids or not, how could he forget that they drafted A-Rod?

        • Yankees420 5 years ago

          Seriously, roids or not, how could he forget that they drafted A-Rod?

          • iwishihadaclue 5 years ago

            I didn’t..i wanted them to say it..just so it would prove my point. The last player they drafted with any relevance was in the 90’s. So draft picks mean squat

          • iwishihadaclue 5 years ago

            I didn’t..i wanted them to say it..just so it would prove my point. The last player they drafted with any relevance was in the 90’s. So draft picks mean squat

          • ReverendBlack 5 years ago

            QED

          • ReverendBlack 5 years ago

            QED

          • Yankees420 5 years ago

            That last sentence is just so horribly wrong, I don’t even know what to say….

      • Chipanese 5 years ago

        The question should be for the other team; Do you want a world series ring, or not?

      • Msforever 5 years ago

        Alex Rodriguez has had an ok career.

  8. I would never trade Mejia or Flores for a rental of Lee. A controllable pitcher would be different.

    • It’s not just Lee. It’s also the two draft picks you net when you offer him arbitration and he signs elsewhere. 3-4 marginal wins from Lee, plus hopefully his postseason starts, plus the value of the two draft picks, is pretty valuable to a contender.

      Look at it this way – if you give up Meija and Flores, you get two high draft picks to replace them, plus Lee. If you draft well, all you really lose is the years of development time for the draft picks to catch up to where Meija and Flores were.

      • Mejia and Flores are stars. I doubt those supplemental picks will be as good as they are.

        • ReverendBlack 5 years ago

          Neither of those two are stars. Stop it.

          • Ok I went overboard with “stars” but Flores is 18. In the US he’d be graduating HS but he’s in high A with guys 2-3 years older than him and he’s raking and rarely strikes out. Guys like that don’t grow on trees. Mejia is projected to be a front of the rotation starter. Neither of which are worth a rental.

          • ReverendBlack 5 years ago

            You don’t need to convince me that they’re great prospects; they are. Great prospects indeed do not grow on trees. But they’re not nearly as rare as Cliff Lee’s.

            Certainty is extremely valuable. That Flores is 18 for example suggests some good things, sure, but it also means there’s a lot of room, a lot of time before he’s valuable for his production rather than his potential production.

            I’m not doubting him. It’s just the choice the Mets have to make. They are rolling the dice either way. What confidence can you have that when the time comes the Mets will be able to surround Mejia and Flores (presuming they flourish) with a good enough team to win championships? There are WAY more variables to account for. As a gambler, that’s not the better bet.

            Lee is no guaranteed WS ticket. But his production is a virtual lock, and you know exactly what kind of team you’re adding him to. This is why teams almost always prefer certain commodities now to potential commodities later, even when the latter might be better overall commodities.

          • ReverendBlack 5 years ago

            You don’t need to convince me that they’re great prospects; they are. Great prospects indeed do not grow on trees. But they’re not nearly as rare as Cliff Lee’s.

            Certainty is extremely valuable. That Flores is 18 for example suggests some good things, sure, but it also means there’s a lot of room, a lot of time before he’s valuable for his production rather than his potential production.

            I’m not doubting him. It’s just the choice the Mets have to make. They are rolling the dice either way. What confidence can you have that when the time comes the Mets will be able to surround Mejia and Flores (presuming they flourish) with a good enough team to win championships? There are WAY more variables to account for. As a gambler, that’s not the better bet.

            Lee is no guaranteed WS ticket. But his production is a virtual lock, and you know exactly what kind of team you’re adding him to. This is why teams almost always prefer certain commodities now to potential commodities later, even when the latter might be better overall commodities.

          • OK. So what’s an elite young shortstop prospect worth? Fortunately, we have a way to figure that out – what teams pay those prospects through the draft or as non-drafted free agents. If Flores was drafted as an elite HS shortstop, top 5 draft pick let’s say – what would he get? $5 mil?

            Now he has a value. Balance that against the value of half a season of Lee ($7-10 mil), along with the draft picks you get after you offer him arb, and you see how Flores plus something is what you need.

            I said it further up, but people are underrating how valuable Lee is, even in half a season. On the open market, he’d get far more than the $4.5 million he’s due in salary. Let’s say $12 million – half of Sabathia’s salary. You’re getting a $12 million player for $4.5 million. That’s a $7.5 million savings.

            Yes, half a year of a player can be very valuable.

          • damnitsderek 5 years ago

            You know who else raked as an 18 year old shortstop in A ball?

            Wilson Betemit.

          • Just_MLB 5 years ago

            you know who else was traded for and did NOT bring a WS ring?
            Cliff Lee

            Phillies – made it to the show…did not win it all
            Mariner – traded for lee…and stunk up the house with him

          • Just_MLB 5 years ago

            you know who else was traded for and did NOT bring a WS ring?
            Cliff Lee

            Phillies – made it to the show…did not win it all
            Mariner – traded for lee…and stunk up the house with him

          • damnitsderek 5 years ago

            You know who else raked as an 18 year old shortstop in A ball?

            Wilson Betemit.

          • Ok I went overboard with “stars” but Flores is 18. In the US he’d be graduating HS but he’s in high A with guys 2-3 years older than him and he’s raking and rarely strikes out. Guys like that don’t grow on trees. Mejia is projected to be a front of the rotation starter. Neither of which are worth a rental.

      • Sampsonite168 5 years ago

        As a Mets fan, after seeing the way the Mets drafted this year, I really don’t care too much about the picks.

  9. yanksfanpaul 5 years ago

    Yankees are going to be looking for veteran bench help and a reliever, not another starter. They’ll wait till Cliff Lee is a free agent and keep Montero (much like they did with CC – Hughes)

  10. metsman 5 years ago

    How about Wilmer Flores SS, Reese Havens 2B, Fransico Pena C, and Robert Carson LHP. fellow Met fans might think thats to much, but even though I don’t think Lee is the one way ticket to a ring that Seattle fan’s make him out to be, I think on our team he is the missing link. He would make the twins stronger, but we have a much more dynamic offense and Lee puts our rotation over the top. We don’t need Lee exactly but we need a good pitcher and I don’t see the point in getting anybody else when Takahashi and Dickey could very well end up with more wins than Lilly or Carmona, and the diamondbacks want even more than the Mariners for Dan Haren.

  11. I really see the Mets as the team that gets Lee.

    I don’t see the Twins giving up prospects. They *love* their system and never want to give up players that are close to (or recently promoted to) the majors. Good fit with the Mariners, unfortunately for them.

    The Mariners are going to want near-MLB ready talent in return. The way I see it, Flores is a little far away for them, since he’s ~2 years away from the majors. If I had to guess, I’d say they’d get Meija (could be in the rotation next year), Tejada (MLB-ready middle infielder, Jack Wilson can’t stay healthy), and someone else (probably another AA/AAA arm – LH relief type?). Fernando Martinez would be interesting, but Michael Saunders is playing pretty well and if he sticks in LF, you don’t have a spot for Martinez. Thole isn’t a sufficient improvement over in-house options to include.

    Mets fans, what say ye? Is that a deal that works for both sides?

    • Belandsexo 5 years ago

      Im just worried about Mejia’s shoulder. I think Flores, Tejada, and Havens is a good deal for us.

      Tejada gives us the near ready ML player that Jack likes. The other two guys have good sticks that could be regulars in a few years.

      • damnitsderek 5 years ago

        Three middle infielders? With Dustin Ackley in AA?

      • damnitsderek 5 years ago

        Three middle infielders? With Dustin Ackley in AA?

    • ReverendBlack 5 years ago

      This deal was brought up in a thread yesterday and makes sense to me. Mejia, Tejada, and a B prospect not named Martinez or Thole.

      Not sure if the Mets would do it, but I think Seattle would be silly to turn it down.

    • ReverendBlack 5 years ago

      This deal was brought up in a thread yesterday and makes sense to me. Mejia, Tejada, and a B prospect not named Martinez or Thole.

      Not sure if the Mets would do it, but I think Seattle would be silly to turn it down.

  12. If you read the NY Post, you will know Joel Sherman is a complete idiot.

    Ms will not get Flores for Lee. He is a rental. Flores is only 18 and is raking while he is the youngest in his league.

    Fernando Martinez, Josh Thole, 2 pitching prospects are more than enough.

    • “He is a rental” is simplistic. You’re renting half a season of an elite SP for $4.5 million, way below market value. The difference between his performance level and his contract is substantial.

      Yes, Flores is a good prospect. He’s also 18 and in high A ball. He could flame out. People have studied the value of prospects like him and figured out a value. Pretty sure it’s less than half a year of Lee.

  13. dc21892 5 years ago

    If the Red Sox wanted they could land Lee in a second before any of these teams trying to get him. So let’s not start with the Yankees being the “big boys.” The Sox are one game out and if they feel like Beckett is going to need time and Dice-K and Wake aren’t cutting it, they have more prospects with bright futures than any of these teams.

    • I wish the red sox never got lackey and traded for lee…Ima sox fan and I just really hate lackey.

      • dc21892 5 years ago

        Sox fan here too. And I’d rather see Lee, but Lackey will come around.

      • ReverendBlack 5 years ago

        No need to hate him. He is a quality starter.

        Hating his contract makes sense, though.

      • ReverendBlack 5 years ago

        No need to hate him. He is a quality starter.

        Hating his contract makes sense, though.

      • jwredsox 5 years ago

        The Sox really just paid him to be an innings eater and give them the top rotation in the league. 4.00 ERA and 200 innings? I’ll take it, plus he is good at keeping his team in the game and is a winner.

        • Yankees420 5 years ago

          Lackey is being paid way too much for him to just be an innings eater, so I doubt that was Mr. Eptsein’s plan for him.

    • Yankees420 5 years ago

      While I agree that the Red Sox have a better farm system than the Mets and Yankees, their system value has significantly decreased the last year and a half. Buch is no longer trade bait (in my opinion), Westmoreland’s injury makes him a huge wild card, Reddick and Kalish have never had world beater potential, Lars’ value has plummeted since the beginning of ’09, Bard is probably untouchable since Paplebon seems to already have one foot out the door, and as for Doubront, well I actually like the way that kid pitches, so we’ll see about him.

      • ReverendBlack 5 years ago

        Yeah, it’s not a lot better anymore really. It’s mostly been made worse by success actually as Bard & Buch no longer count imo. Neither does Westmoreland. Kelly, Iglesias, and maybe Doubrount are the only sexy names around at this point.

        They have lots and lots of what you might call prospective prospects – low A talent with good ceilings – in Rizzo, Pimentel, Fuentes, maybe Tejada and some of the new draftees. But in terms of exchange or trade value, those guys don’t count for much yet.

        • BentoBox 5 years ago

          You do not consider Kalish sexy ? Gotta call JT to being sexy back. :)

  14. Cyyoung 5 years ago

    Way I see it Lee is going to be the Teixeira of pitchers. He will never sign an extension. Seattle wants Montero, if any starters get injured or start having consistent bad outings, Yanks make the move. As A Sox fan, who has seen Montero in Double AA, I’d be happy if this trade is made. Lee for a few months to Montero for the next 8 years would make me happy.

    • ReverendBlack 5 years ago

      If the Yankees dealt for Lee, they wouldn’t let him go anywhere. So you’re talking about instead of 8 years of Montero – knowing NYY – probably 18 years of Lee. 3 or 4 of which would suck for you.

  15. jwredsox 5 years ago

    I still don’t get why it is a forgone conclusion that the Yankees will sign Lee. I realize they have been the foremost buyers the past few year but how many long term deals and tens of millions of dollars guaranteed to guys who will be in their early to mid 30’s when the deal is up until they realize it isn’t the way to build a team? I think they will aggressively pursue Lee but I think someone else will get him. And if I were a Yankees fan I’d be happy with that too, better than having 3 pitchers locked up into their mid 30s for around 20mil each. Not to mention what you’ll have to pay Jeter, Arod, Teixeira, Cano after 2013, and Crawford if they get him (who I think they want more than Lee). That’s potentially 8 guys who will be making big money and maybe Hughes and Chamberlain depending on when they hit arbitration not to mention anyone else New York will /have/ to have over the next 3 years. Even the Yankees have a limit. Note: Mariano is left out because I don’t think he will be around at this time. I think he’d be happy with 2 more years.

    • ReverendBlack 5 years ago

      how many long term deals and tens of millions of dollars guaranteed to guys who will be in their early to mid 30’s when the deal is up until they realize it isn’t the way to build a team?

      Eh? It’s been working pretty well. It’s not a good way to build a team iff you have a short budget.

      That’s potentially 8 guys who will be making big money and maybe Hughes and Chamberlain depending on when they hit arbitration not to mention anyone else New York will /have/ to have over the next 3 years. Even the Yankees have a limit.

      Probably. But I don’t think they’re very close to it. “He costs a lot” is not a valid reason for NY not to sign Lee. If he demands crazy years, that would be. But they could always just jack up the salary for shorter years.

      • jwredsox 5 years ago

        Well why should Lee be looking for anything less than Burnett’s 5yr/82.5mil contract as a start? Lee is left-handed and is just plain better than Burnett. And both have the same agent I believe. Do the Yankees really want to deal out another contract like that? I made a post a month ago or so where I listed the ages of Yankees players in the last year of Burnetts contract and it wasn’t pretty.Edit: they do in fact have the same agent

        • ReverendBlack 5 years ago

          Well why should Lee be looking for anything less than Burnett’s 5yr/82.5mil contract as a start?

          Actually he should be starting with Lackey’s deal, but yes.

          Do the Yankees really want to deal out another contract like that?

          Probably. Especially if they can talk him into 4 for more money. The guy is good. And the Yankees like good. Not to mention that a title or two will mean it’s more than paid off.

          They really aren’t as concerned with total budget as it seems to most of us they should be. A mil does not mean to them what it does to you and I and 29 other franchises.

          • jwredsox 5 years ago

            I know the money aspects and the Yankees lucrative TV deal and everything else that makes them a lot of moolah but there is still a cap as to what they want to be paying. And if they do get Crawford I say here is no way they get Lee.

          • ReverendBlack 5 years ago

            You could be right. But I kinda doubt it.

          • Yankees420 5 years ago

            Lee will almost certainly be prioritized over Crawford, the Yankees have at minimum 1 rotation spot open next year, with the possibility of another one being open if Andy retires, whereas in the OF, there isn’t a whole lot of room for Crawford unless Gardner decides to drop off a cliff.

          • jwredsox 5 years ago

            Well Crawford is a guy who the Yankees have wanted since forever I’m sure and if they don’t get him, I’m sure the Sox will be in on him.

          • Yankees420 5 years ago

            Except they already have a player just like Crawford in Brett Gardner, I’m not saying Brett is as good as Carl, just that they have the same skill set, good defense, phenomenal speed and light power, there is no reason for the Yankees to pursue Crawford at the expense of solidifying the rotation.

          • ReverendBlack 5 years ago

            I think there’s a chance Crawford develops some pop in the next few years, particularly in Yankee stadium.

            Having said that, I really like Gardner.

          • Yankees420 5 years ago

            No doubt NYS would help Crawford’s HR totals, I just don’t think it will be worth it for the Yankees to give him a 5/80MM deal when Brett Gardner can do everything that makes Crawford valuable minus HR power, which Crawford doesn’t even have that much of (~15 if he played half his games in pinstripes).

            I also really like Gardner, he plays all out all the time, and I remember last year when he visited a kid that had cancer and promised him/her (I can’t remember) that he’d hit a home run that day, and he got an inside the park HR, that was just awesome, and I’d like to see him stick in the OF. (provided that he can keep up his current level of production)

          • jwredsox 5 years ago

            I know the money aspects and the Yankees lucrative TV deal and everything else that makes them a lot of moolah but there is still a cap as to what they want to be paying. And if they do get Crawford I say here is no way they get Lee.

        • ReverendBlack 5 years ago

          Well why should Lee be looking for anything less than Burnett’s 5yr/82.5mil contract as a start?

          Actually he should be starting with Lackey’s deal, but yes.

          Do the Yankees really want to deal out another contract like that?

          Probably. Especially if they can talk him into 4 for more money. The guy is good. And the Yankees like good. Not to mention that a title or two will mean it’s more than paid off.

          They really aren’t as concerned with total budget as it seems to most of us they should be. A mil does not mean to them what it does to you and I and 29 other franchises.

      • jwredsox 5 years ago

        Well why should Lee be looking for anything less than Burnett’s 5yr/82.5mil contract as a start? Lee is left-handed and is just plain better than Burnett. And both have the same agent I believe. Do the Yankees really want to deal out another contract like that? I made a post a month ago or so where I listed the ages of Yankees players in the last year of Burnetts contract and it wasn’t pretty.Edit: they do in fact have the same agent

    • ReverendBlack 5 years ago

      how many long term deals and tens of millions of dollars guaranteed to guys who will be in their early to mid 30’s when the deal is up until they realize it isn’t the way to build a team?

      Eh? It’s been working pretty well. It’s not a good way to build a team iff you have a short budget.

      That’s potentially 8 guys who will be making big money and maybe Hughes and Chamberlain depending on when they hit arbitration not to mention anyone else New York will /have/ to have over the next 3 years. Even the Yankees have a limit.

      Probably. But I don’t think they’re very close to it. “He costs a lot” is not a valid reason for NY not to sign Lee. If he demands crazy years, that would be. But they could always just jack up the salary for shorter years.

  16. Dave_in_Spain 5 years ago

    If you read the Joel Sherman article, it´s much less definate than Tim summarizes it as. It´s basically all Sherman´s suggestions, beliefs, wishes, and biases. There is nothing concrete at all in Sherman´s piece.

  17. Tvators 5 years ago

    I dont see the Red sox just stepping in and getting LEE, their system has taken a hit this yr, Westmoreland for obvious reasons, Casey Kelly they wont trade and he’s over hyped anyway, Lars Anderson has done nothing outside of 18 games at AA this yr, tazawa, Bowden, Kalish, reddick all down….what do they have close? if they did they wouldnt be using darnell MacDonald, Eric patterson, Bill hall to fill in….M’s supposedly want a catcher than they dont want Montero who is a DH/1b, minor leaguers have run wild on him, he’s not a C….. As a met fan, I feel they should go for it, determine who they can center deal around, Mejia or Flores and add a mid level guy or two if necessary …and do it, Lee is not signing an extension, draft picks at their price and risk ( most dont make it and also if signed by a top 15 pick team they get screwed)are not all they are cracked up to be, Mets hope they win & he enjoys NY and NL and mets win giving them a fighting chance against the Yanks checkbook.

    • jwredsox 5 years ago

      How are Kalish and Lars down? Sure they struggled in AAA but that is expected after moving up a level from AA where they raked (albeit small sample size for Lars but it is a small sample size for Kalish in AAA where he has struggled his first 13 games). Sure they aren’t really ‘close’ but you named 4 guys in AAA already. And after the Sox set Bowden’s mechanics back to what they were before (they changed them) he has pitched better and he never had a high ceiling to begin with. And Casey Kelly is now overrated when he’s just in his first full season of pitching in AA and is still 20? Me smells bias.

      • Tvators 5 years ago

        I like KAlish, think he could be a decent MLB OFer, to say Lars’s stock is not down can only be a redsox fan bias, I think kelly is a good prospect but Sox seem to think he’s untouchable, but he doesnt throw all that hard and may have trouble missing bats in MLB and being an true ACE, thus maybe a bit overrated in my opinion. ANyway not tryingto say Mets system is better, Sox have a ton of lower level, draftees that were considered hard signs w/ big upsides the few years, just saying dont think sox can step in and cherry oick whomeever they want esp. w/ Kelly off the table

        • jwredsox 5 years ago

          I agree with most of that now except for the fact Lar’s stock has to be up since it was at about 0 last year. He already jumped on the Sox’s top prospects list because after seeing a guy who was abysmally bad in AA last year atleast show an 18 game improvement has to bump his stock up from nothing because he was a highly touted guy in the past. And I also think Kalish has more potential than you are giving him but that is probably my bias lol

        • jwredsox 5 years ago

          I agree with most of that now except for the fact Lar’s stock has to be up since it was at about 0 last year. He already jumped on the Sox’s top prospects list because after seeing a guy who was abysmally bad in AA last year atleast show an 18 game improvement has to bump his stock up from nothing because he was a highly touted guy in the past. And I also think Kalish has more potential than you are giving him but that is probably my bias lol

        • ReverendBlack 5 years ago

          Butting-in here just because that’s a pretty negligent scouting report on Kelly. Sox weren’t forced to develop him as a starter; he projected as a solid regular SS. They chose the starter route because of his ceiling there, which is very high.

          Ask Cliff Lee if FB velocity is a problem when you have plus movement. =P

          • jwredsox 5 years ago

            Plus I think the scouting report was that he would take several more years to develop if they wanted to make him a SS and even then he wasn’t that special. Pitching was just the best route for him in both aspects.

          • Tvators 5 years ago

            Not meant to be a slight against Kelly, just b/c I think his ceiling may be more solid #2 than an ace, I think mejia’s ceiling is an ace but he’s much less likely to reach that ceiling and could end up a dominant reliver, or flame out before becoming anything. I think Kelly, young already in AA, commands several pitches well, athletic, talented has an extremely bright future and Kalish being a solid MLB OFer is not a slight either and Im saying Lars stock is down from a few years ago and even from early this season when people were back on the band wagon, he’s def lost a couple of bandwagon jumpers since then….all in all my point being Sox couldnt just jump in and take Lee at anytime, esp considering now way they incl. Kelly.

          • BentoBox 5 years ago

            Kelly is ranked #10 by KLaw’s latest mid-season ranking. He doesn’t have the ceiling of an ace (at least by what I have read) but his floor is high so there’s that.

      • Tvators 5 years ago

        I like KAlish, think he could be a decent MLB OFer, to say Lars’s stock is not down can only be a redsox fan bias, I think kelly is a good prospect but Sox seem to think he’s untouchable, but he doesnt throw all that hard and may have trouble missing bats in MLB and being an true ACE, thus maybe a bit overrated in my opinion. ANyway not tryingto say Mets system is better, Sox have a ton of lower level, draftees that were considered hard signs w/ big upsides the few years, just saying dont think sox can step in and cherry oick whomeever they want esp. w/ Kelly off the table

    • jwredsox 5 years ago

      How are Kalish and Lars down? Sure they struggled in AAA but that is expected after moving up a level from AA where they raked (albeit small sample size for Lars but it is a small sample size for Kalish in AAA where he has struggled his first 13 games). Sure they aren’t really ‘close’ but you named 4 guys in AAA already. And after the Sox set Bowden’s mechanics back to what they were before (they changed them) he has pitched better and he never had a high ceiling to begin with. And Casey Kelly is now overrated when he’s just in his first full season of pitching in AA and is still 20? Me smells bias.

    • ReverendBlack 5 years ago

      Theo isn’t trading a significant portion of a farm he’s long coveted — that would be sold low right now anyway — for another starting pitcher. Even if he might in other seasons, not this one. The longterm plan had this built-in as an iffy year and that’s definitely what it is. He might be willing to shore up the pen or even make a splashy transaction if something long-term fits, but renting makes even less sense for him this year than it otherwise would.

      Unlike the Mets and many others, the Red Sox have the budget and the development system to have a shot at the playoffs – and thus the WS – year after year. Accordingly, they have significantly less incentive to trade away pieces they’re developing for a short-term shot. Their future is more certain than most.

    • ReverendBlack 5 years ago

      Theo isn’t trading a significant portion of a farm he’s long coveted — that would be sold low right now anyway — for another starting pitcher. Even if he might in other seasons, not this one. The longterm plan had this built-in as an iffy year and that’s definitely what it is. He might be willing to shore up the pen or even make a splashy transaction if something long-term fits, but renting makes even less sense for him this year than it otherwise would.

      Unlike the Mets and many others, the Red Sox have the budget and the development system to have a shot at the playoffs – and thus the WS – year after year. Accordingly, they have significantly less incentive to trade away pieces they’re developing for a short-term shot. Their future is more certain than most.

  18. InvalidUserID 5 years ago

    He’ll be a Yankee, sooner or later. It wouldn’t surprise me if they got him this year (who gets knocked out of the rotation though?) but I expect him in pinstripes next year when one of two things happen

    1) Javy leaves via FA
    2) Andy retires

    If the Yankees win this year, say goodbye and thank you to Andy.

    If A-Rod and Tex start hitting, a bat isn’t a HUGE need. Appreciated, sure…but not necessary.

    • jwredsox 5 years ago

      I don’t see Andy turning down another 10mil if he had a good year this year. Even though he is pitching over his head he must be feeling good about himself and not many people go out like Mussina.

      • InvalidUserID 5 years ago

        I think Andy makes the All-Star team this year and if he keeps pitching well and wins another ring, I think that is enough for him to walk away. He’s said he wants to spend time with his family but if he wants a shot at 250 or 300, maybe he’ll keep it going.As far as the Yankees, I don’t think they’ll mind having him back to anchor down the #4-5 spot moving forward at all.

        I wish Mussina would have stayed another year and gotten his ring. The Yankees sure could have used him last year, especially in the post-season. But Moose is happy post-baseball, so good for him.

    • jwredsox 5 years ago

      I don’t see Andy turning down another 10mil if he had a good year this year. Even though he is pitching over his head he must be feeling good about himself and not many people go out like Mussina.

    • ReverendBlack 5 years ago

      I can’t say I want the Yankees to win a title this year, but it would sure be a great way for Andy to wrap things up. A brilliant season at this age and another ring. That’s going out on top.

  19. Joel Sherman. Stop making suggestions. They are bad. Thank you. the Yankees made Montero available because, last year, both Lee and Halladay still had more than a year left on their contracts. That is not the case now. I know that wasn’t the case with CC and the Brewers, but, unlike the Brewers, the Yankees don’t need to overpay for a pitcher in order to make the playoffs. We just need some good veteran bats off the bench and another reliever. Our starting staff is just fine.

    • goodbyebaseball 5 years ago

      Yeah, that was evident last night……..

      • Yes, do cite ONE instance where a pitcher going on, what, 10 days rest, which I think is a first for Hughes, having trouble locating his pitches. Spot on, my friend.

        The only starter in trouble right now is Burnett.

        • jwredsox 5 years ago

          well Pettite does have a xFIP near 4.00 and Vazquez still hasn’t showed me anything. I do think Hughes is the real deal though.

          • bj82 5 years ago

            I have you check Vazquez last 6 starts?

          • jwredsox 5 years ago

            Yes. One came against Baltimore another against HR or die Toronto and 4 came against the same NL teams he had a ERA under 3 against last year. Nothing that impressed me there. And his bad start during that stint came against the Twins.

          • Yankees420 5 years ago

            I’m pretty sure that the Yankees paid Pettitte to have an ERA near 4 and eat lots of innings, the fact that his ERA is so pretty is just gravy.

          • jwredsox 5 years ago

            I don’t mean he won’t be worth the money I just mean he is probably going to regress obviously

      • bj82 5 years ago

        I bet Hughes makes the AS game?

    • goodbyebaseball 5 years ago

      Yeah, that was evident last night……..

  20. Joel Sherman. Stop making suggestions. They are bad. Thank you. the Yankees made Montero available because, last year, both Lee and Halladay still had more than a year left on their contracts. That is not the case now. I know that wasn’t the case with CC and the Brewers, but, unlike the Brewers, the Yankees don’t need to overpay for a pitcher in order to make the playoffs. We just need some good veteran bats off the bench and another reliever. Our starting staff is just fine.

  21. If the Phils can admit they made a mistake they should offer JA Happ and John Mayberry for Lee. Both are cheap, minimum salary players who are ready for the majors. From what I read Seattle is looking for lefty starters and outfielders so this should be a fit. Lee can take Happ’s place in the rotation and give the Phils a top of the rotation that no one can rival.

    • frank_costanza 5 years ago

      Makes no sense. Happ is a CHEAP, far more than quality starter who is young. Happ is a future All Star. Mayberry has pop and is at the point in his career where he will only get better if he plays every day. His average is around .270 in AAA, the Phillies wanted him to cutdown on his strike outs. I get the feeling he may be one of the replacement answers to Jayson Werth, so I dont know how they would feel about dealing him. And also I dont get the feeling that there is much interest in Mayberry, his ceiling tops out at a good player, not an All Star.

      If the Phillies were somehow stupid enough to trade Happ, then how would they afford to extend Lee? Happ isnt even making 500k.

  22. Not going to happen, but I think a three-way deal that sent Lee to the Yankees and Vazquez to the Mets would actually make quite a bit of sense. Javy’s biggest problem is being a righthanded flyball pitcher in Yankee Stadium, and he was born for CitiField. The Yankees wouldn’t need a negotiating window for Lee, since they’re the Yankees, and can afford whatever he wants. And the Mets can probably afford to resign Vazquez if they want to. A combination of Montero and some of the Mets pretty-good prospects ought to be fair for the M’s.

    • Guest 5 years ago

      I’ve tried to read through most of the comments and believe it or not, there are quite a few intelligent ones. That being said, there is a high probability that there are ongoing discussions by multiple GM’s concerning a three team trade, with Lee winding up in the Bronx. I hinted at this a few days ago and I do believe, that there is a good chance of this. The Yanks are a persistent organization and they do give their players a chance. Not so sure they give up on Javy so easily. He does have great stuff and is incredibly durable, however Javy to the Met’s has always made a lot of sense. Javy to the Mets, Mejia (Mets), Adams (Yanks) + 1 or 2 lower level from Yanks and Mets. Lee to the Yanks. I think Cashman could build a nice package with people not named Montero and Romine. Fill in the blanks from here…

  23. Guest 5 years ago

    Also another thing concerning the Yanks. AJ Burnett isn’t going anywhere. He is not being swapped for another “bad contract” as this was discussed on here yesterday. Most people probably don’t want him. He is fine. He’s had a bad month. Big deal. I am Yank fan and I’ve had to sit through it. He is highly talented pitcher who is not all that old yet. He is ideally a 3/4 guy and he will come in very handy for the Yanks over the next year or two. Is he being paid too much? Yes, but it is what it is and there are many others that we could single out as being much worse based on value to production. I only bring this up in a Cliff Lee thread since there probably is a 90% chance Lee winds up with the Yanks whether it be in 10 days or in the winter. CC, Lee, AJ, Hughes, Brackman or Betances. I do believe Pettitte hangs it up after this season. It maybe a mutual thank you. Right now the Yanks need BULLPEN help and asap! I’m thinking Chan Ho Park could be traded back to an NL team. He is not that bad, but certainly not Yankee material..

  24. rico7961 5 years ago

    I really think the Twins are willing to give up Ramos in a Cliff Lee deal. Its the other players that are holding up the deal. IMO the Twins will only give up an additional triple A pitcher and a single A player and not any more. I think the Mariners are asking for a lot more at this point. Its a no lose situation for the Twins. Just hold out and wait till the Mariners demands come down. For some reason the Mariners seem to want Ramos really bad. The more days that pass the less they can ask.

  25. Who needs to scout Cliff Lee? He’s been around enough that teams shouldn’t need to do any scouting on Lee. He’s a great pitcher. Now they just need to decide if they want to mortgage future maybe stars for a current one.

  26. nick1538 5 years ago

    I really think the Twins have the best shot at getting Lee and here is the biggest reason: they don’t need Ramos! The Mets want Mejia for the future (he was up this year), the same for Montero with the Yankees (Posada isn’t getting any younger). Ramos is too valuable to not stay at catcher (where he has great potential with his defense) and he is blocked by the best catcher in baseball.
    In addition to not needing Ramos, they don’t really need Duensing, Swarzak, Bromberg, etc because they have a bunch on pitching prospects at all levels. Not to mention 3 SPs in their current rotation under team friendly contracts/in arbitration years.

    • Dylan 5 years ago

      you do know their 3rd best prospect is a catcher? I think they want arms and outfielders…plus Ramos really isn’t tearing it up right now in AAA (batting .219)…Despite this, even as a Phillies fan, I’ve been saying if the Twins get Lee, they will be tough to beat.

      • nick1538 5 years ago

        I do realize that Adam Moore is down on the farm for the Mariners, but he is also 26 years old and isn’t with the big club yet. He isn’t the “blue chip” prospect that most consider Ramos to be.
        If they want an OFer, the Twins have those too… Revere, Morales, Benson. I am pretty sure that Hicks is off limits.
        If Ramos is out of the equation, an offer of Revere and couple pitchers (Swarzak, Duensing, Bromberg…) would be fair.

      • nick1538 5 years ago

        I do realize that Adam Moore is down on the farm for the Mariners, but he is also 26 years old and isn’t with the big club yet. He isn’t the “blue chip” prospect that most consider Ramos to be.
        If they want an OFer, the Twins have those too… Revere, Morales, Benson. I am pretty sure that Hicks is off limits.
        If Ramos is out of the equation, an offer of Revere and couple pitchers (Swarzak, Duensing, Bromberg…) would be fair.

    • Dylan 5 years ago

      you do know their 3rd best prospect is a catcher? I think they want arms and outfielders…plus Ramos really isn’t tearing it up right now in AAA (batting .219)…Despite this, even as a Phillies fan, I’ve been saying if the Twins get Lee, they will be tough to beat.

  27. myname_989 5 years ago

    As big of a hypocrite as this makes me, (I was a supporter of the decision to move Lee at one time), I think that Ruben Amaro is going to make a play for Lee again. He’s not stupid. He knows that if the Mets make a move to get Lee, he’ll have to respond. When there’s no pitcher on the market that can equal a valid response… you stop the Mets from getting their guy. I’m not sure about the Mets, Yankees, Twins, etc., but in my mind, the Phillies have the best prospects to make a trade for Lee, and Ruben knows that this team has to win now. Jack Zdunerick (sorry for the name butchering. =__=) wants outfielders and pitching. The Phillies DO have prospects, despite the common belief that they didn’t, hence the reason they traded Lee, and even more specifically, they specialize in… *drum roll*: pitchers and outfielders. The Mariners could choose from a group of:

    Phillipe Aumont, P
    JC Ramirez, P
    Trevor May, P
    Jared Cosart, P (Who’s on fire in the minors)
    Scott Mathieson, P
    Brody Colvin, P
    Tyson Gillies, OF
    Anthony Gose, OF
    Domingo Santana, OF

    And there are other prospects, slightly less touted than these guys. And then, of course, there’s the kicker. Injuries kill a team and force them to do desperate things. Do injuries force Ruben Amaro to trade Domonic Brown to the M’s. I mean, he is EXACTLY what they’re looking for. He could be the second coming of Ken Griffey Jr. there. (Okay, a little dramatic, but you get the idea.)

    In my eyes, if Ruben is going to trade Brown, Lee can be had for Domonic Brown and a young gun like Jared Cosart. If the deal’s not sweet enough, the Phils’ have prospects like Scott Mathieson and BJ Rosenberg who throw flames out of the bullpen. The Phils, in my mind, have the best pieces to (re)acquire Cliff Lee.

    • myname_989 5 years ago

      And I forgot to mention other big names that the M’s could look into, like Jonathon Singleton, 1B, who’s tearing up the minors and Sebastian Valle, C, when it comes to offense.

      • Dylan 5 years ago

        They are also really high on Cosart and May, doubt they will trade them…Also, if they go after Lee, they will attempt to sign him and that means Werth is gone and they are compromising their balance and leaving them exposed to strong LH pitching…esp. late in the game

        • frank_costanza 5 years ago

          Depending on how the market shapes up in the offseason, I believe that Werth could remain a Phillie. If he walks, they would likely have to platoon with a combination of Mayberry/Francisco/Brown. Which wouldnt be the worst thing because they are capable, inexpensive, and lets face it, if Utley, Rollins, Victorino, Ibanez, Ruiz, Howard, and Polanco cant get it done without Werth… then well thats just pathetic.

      • Dylan 5 years ago

        They are also really high on Cosart and May, doubt they will trade them…Also, if they go after Lee, they will attempt to sign him and that means Werth is gone and they are compromising their balance and leaving them exposed to strong LH pitching…esp. late in the game

      • frank_costanza 5 years ago

        Man if the M’s got an offer of a deal built around Jonathon Singleton for Lee, It would be hard for them to pass up even though Singleton is a whiles away from the MLB. He does appear to be talented beyond his age and the murmurs about him could be growing louder the next two years. He will be blocked by Howard, which makes me wonder if the Phillies could try and convert him to 3B. Everything i have heard about him is that he is stellar with the glove, so I dont see why making the transition to 3B (which is something the Phillies need in their farm) would be so hard. And even if he wasnt a stellar defensive 3B… lets be real here, his bat is whats going to make him money

    • Dylan 5 years ago

      Trade Brown? No Thanks. If Werth walks and Ibanez continues to struggle, you then have Fransisco/Dobbs/Mayberry/Gload in the corners…even with Halladay and Lee, we could be the east coast Giants.

      • myname_989 5 years ago

        I wasn’t suggesting that we should trade Brown, Lol. God no. What I said was that I don’t think that Amaro would hesitate to do it at this point. In my opinion, if Amaro finds that the Mets are close to acquiring Cliff Lee, he will not hesitate to make Domonic Brown available to Jack Z in Seattle. Even if they did make the deal, which if Brown is included, I believe could be done with 2 prospects, they’d have to find a way to resign one of Werth and Lee, and I’d be hard pressed to see them do anything aside from offer him arbitration. Werth will not have nearly as many suitors as Cliff Lee, especially the Yankees (Who yes, I know, are interested in both). The Yankees are sure to offer Cliff an upward of 100MM dollars. The Phillies would not be able to resign Cliff, regardless. Werth, they have a shot at resigning.

        Bottom line, unless you can field a team of prospects in the future, the Phillies are in full fledge “win-now” mode, and they aren’t winning anything if Cliff Lee ends up on the Mets.

      • myname_989 5 years ago

        I wasn’t suggesting that we should trade Brown, Lol. God no. What I said was that I don’t think that Amaro would hesitate to do it at this point. In my opinion, if Amaro finds that the Mets are close to acquiring Cliff Lee, he will not hesitate to make Domonic Brown available to Jack Z in Seattle. Even if they did make the deal, which if Brown is included, I believe could be done with 2 prospects, they’d have to find a way to resign one of Werth and Lee, and I’d be hard pressed to see them do anything aside from offer him arbitration. Werth will not have nearly as many suitors as Cliff Lee, especially the Yankees (Who yes, I know, are interested in both). The Yankees are sure to offer Cliff an upward of 100MM dollars. The Phillies would not be able to resign Cliff, regardless. Werth, they have a shot at resigning.

        Bottom line, unless you can field a team of prospects in the future, the Phillies are in full fledge “win-now” mode, and they aren’t winning anything if Cliff Lee ends up on the Mets.

      • Dylan 5 years ago

        Why not trade Brown? He is batting .324 with 17 HRs (hit one tonight) in AA & AAA combined this year. The man is a machine and will only get more power as he progresses. You’re looking at a 30/30/.300 player. Why would you trade that for half a year when pitching (SP) hasn’t really been the problem?

      • Dylan 5 years ago

        Why not trade Brown? He is batting .324 with 17 HRs (hit one tonight) in AA & AAA combined this year. The man is a machine and will only get more power as he progresses. You’re looking at a 30/30/.300 player. Why would you trade that for half a year when pitching (SP) hasn’t really been the problem?

        • myname_989 5 years ago

          Because your hand if forced. Once again, I’m not saying that I think that it is the right move to make, but I think that it’s a move that COULD be made. There are so many factors surrounding a deal like that, but so many factors that have already met Amaro and the Phillies. Let’s face it. Anyway you shake it, the Phillies are a 3rd place team right now. They’ve got a huge problem with injuries, their bench is falling apart, their bullpen is full of inconsistency, and the starting rotation is nothing better than mediocre. The lineup is good when it’s on the field, but even that has gone into slumps, and offense HAS been a problem for the Phils for a good portion of the season. You have to shake things up SOMEWHERE on this team.

          When you look at it like this, I can bet you any amount of money, after watching Cliff Lee pitch the way he has, that Ruben Amaro has admitted to himself that he made a mistake by trying to restock the farm system instead of holding onto Cliff Lee for another year. Yeah, Domonic Brown may be tearing it up in the minors, but what happens if he comes up to the Bigs and can’t hit? Period. What if he has 3 bad months on the Phils’ roster, hits below .200, and gets sent back down to the minors? Then every fan will jump off of his band wagon and wonder why he wasn’t traded. Prospects are prospects, and I’ve always live by that. If the deal is right, make it.

          I honestly love Domonic Brown. Like you said, the potential is undeniable. Amaro and the Phillies brass knows though, that they have to make a deal to win this team a World Series now. More than 3/4 of this team are in their prime years. If a deal needs to be made to win this team a World Series now, then so be it. If you need to acquire Lee to win a World Series, you do it. If you need to prevent the Mets from acquiring him, you do it. Baseball is just as much a game of chess as it is a sport. It’s about being able to predict what other teams are going to do. Brown may be tearing it up in the minors now, but there’s no guarantee he can do that in the Bigs.

          Take Mike Stanton for example. The guy was the second best prospect in baseball. He had the numbers that Brown’s got now in like… the first month of the season. Marlins called him up, looking for a push. Now he’s hitting .217, 2HR, 6BB, 13RBI’s in 70AB’s. The Major League is more than just having God-given talent. Some top prospects can’t crack it in the Bigs. No prospect is a guarantee. Cliff Lee, his skill, and the things that he can do for a team trying to win a World Series… is. If you need to take a risk because your hand is forced, then you do. You could let Lee and Werth walk (again, not something I’d recommend) and have 4 draft picks before the 2nd round. In my mind, you take the proven over the uncertain. Domonic Brown, most likely, won’t be a deciding factor in the Phillies winning a World Series over the next two years. Cliff Lee could be.

          Just a final note, I don’t know why you’re trying to make me look like an idiot. Lol. I’m not sitting on a phone right now with Jack Z discussing a deal with him about Domonic Brown and Cliff Lee. I’m just saying that I think it’s something that has to be in the back of Ruben Amaro’s mind, and I wouldn’t mind seeing Brown go, if it meant Lee returning. Hell, I wouldn’t mind seeing a prospect or two go to acquire any starting pitcher, for example, Ted Lilly. Despite what you think, the starting pitching aside from Roy Halladay and 2 or 3 starts from the Ageless Jamie Moyer, the starting pitching has been mediocre, and could use a boost, (a trade) or two (Happ returning from the DL).

        • myname_989 5 years ago

          Because your hand if forced. Once again, I’m not saying that I think that it is the right move to make, but I think that it’s a move that COULD be made. There are so many factors surrounding a deal like that, but so many factors that have already met Amaro and the Phillies. Let’s face it. Anyway you shake it, the Phillies are a 3rd place team right now. They’ve got a huge problem with injuries, their bench is falling apart, their bullpen is full of inconsistency, and the starting rotation is nothing better than mediocre. The lineup is good when it’s on the field, but even that has gone into slumps, and offense HAS been a problem for the Phils for a good portion of the season. You have to shake things up SOMEWHERE on this team.

          When you look at it like this, I can bet you any amount of money, after watching Cliff Lee pitch the way he has, that Ruben Amaro has admitted to himself that he made a mistake by trying to restock the farm system instead of holding onto Cliff Lee for another year. Yeah, Domonic Brown may be tearing it up in the minors, but what happens if he comes up to the Bigs and can’t hit? Period. What if he has 3 bad months on the Phils’ roster, hits below .200, and gets sent back down to the minors? Then every fan will jump off of his band wagon and wonder why he wasn’t traded. Prospects are prospects, and I’ve always live by that. If the deal is right, make it.

          I honestly love Domonic Brown. Like you said, the potential is undeniable. Amaro and the Phillies brass knows though, that they have to make a deal to win this team a World Series now. More than 3/4 of this team are in their prime years. If a deal needs to be made to win this team a World Series now, then so be it. If you need to acquire Lee to win a World Series, you do it. If you need to prevent the Mets from acquiring him, you do it. Baseball is just as much a game of chess as it is a sport. It’s about being able to predict what other teams are going to do. Brown may be tearing it up in the minors now, but there’s no guarantee he can do that in the Bigs.

          Take Mike Stanton for example. The guy was the second best prospect in baseball. He had the numbers that Brown’s got now in like… the first month of the season. Marlins called him up, looking for a push. Now he’s hitting .217, 2HR, 6BB, 13RBI’s in 70AB’s. The Major League is more than just having God-given talent. Some top prospects can’t crack it in the Bigs. No prospect is a guarantee. Cliff Lee, his skill, and the things that he can do for a team trying to win a World Series… is. If you need to take a risk because your hand is forced, then you do. You could let Lee and Werth walk (again, not something I’d recommend) and have 4 draft picks before the 2nd round. In my mind, you take the proven over the uncertain. Domonic Brown, most likely, won’t be a deciding factor in the Phillies winning a World Series over the next two years. Cliff Lee could be.

          Just a final note, I don’t know why you’re trying to make me look like an idiot. Lol. I’m not sitting on a phone right now with Jack Z discussing a deal with him about Domonic Brown and Cliff Lee. I’m just saying that I think it’s something that has to be in the back of Ruben Amaro’s mind, and I wouldn’t mind seeing Brown go, if it meant Lee returning. Hell, I wouldn’t mind seeing a prospect or two go to acquire any starting pitcher, for example, Ted Lilly. Despite what you think, the starting pitching aside from Roy Halladay and 2 or 3 starts from the Ageless Jamie Moyer, the starting pitching has been mediocre, and could use a boost, (a trade) or two (Happ returning from the DL).

    • Dylan 5 years ago

      Trade Brown? No Thanks. If Werth walks and Ibanez continues to struggle, you then have Fransisco/Dobbs/Mayberry/Gload in the corners…even with Halladay and Lee, we could be the east coast Giants.

    • frank_costanza 5 years ago

      No way you trade Brown given their outfield situation in the next 2 years, I dont think its a stretch to compare him to Griffey. Ive watched the kid play, and thats who comes to mind.

      May and Cosart arent going anywhere.

      I highly doubt the M’s would want Aumont, Ramirez, or Gillies back, and the M’s want talent that is close to, if not ready, for the bigs. Mathieson is the only one in that group that appears ready for the bigs. So I dont think the Phillies could get a deal done. They could, however, deal some of these pitchers or out fielders and not miss anything. They have some pitchers down in A ball that are poised to be promoted soon. Nicholas Hernandez is in low A, but he is DOMINATING everyone there.

      I too was one of the supporters of moving Lee. I understood the reasoning behind it and it makes sense. Unfortunately they made the deal thinking that they were going to have Halladay, Hamels, and Happ all going strong. While Hamels started rough, he has been pitching real well since May. Happ is the missing piece, the Phillies uncertainty of his availability is what makes them go after Lee. If he was healthy, we arent having this conversation.

  28. No way Lee goes back to Philly and all u Yankee fans thinking thed Mets will do a 3 way deal with u are crazy……the Mets want Lee, The fans want Lee, no way the Mets allow the guy they covet to go the Yankees in a deal that involves them…..especially forf Vazquez….I don’t want the Braves or Yankees unwanted trash………The Yankees may get Lee, but the Mets won’t be involved with it.

    • caseyB 5 years ago

      I didn’t have time to read the whole thread so I skipped to the end and read your comment. Boy, I thought you were kidding when you said Yankee fans suggested the Mets give up Mejia to help the Yankees get Lee and then accept a very inferior Vazquez back in return. That’s got to be the height of delusion. The Mets would NEVER do that. The two teams rarely trade with each other to begin with, and in the rare instances they do, it’s only to do a mutual salary dump or exchange low-level non-impact players. They certainly won’t do a deal to help the Yankees get Lee. And the Mets certainly won’t give up Mejia only to get Vazquez back.

    • caseyB 5 years ago

      I didn’t have time to read the whole thread so I skipped to the end and read your comment. Boy, I thought you were kidding when you said Yankee fans suggested the Mets give up Mejia to help the Yankees get Lee and then accept a very inferior Vazquez back in return. That’s got to be the height of delusion. The Mets would NEVER do that. The two teams rarely trade with each other to begin with, and in the rare instances they do, it’s only to do a mutual salary dump or exchange low-level non-impact players. They certainly won’t do a deal to help the Yankees get Lee. And the Mets certainly won’t give up Mejia only to get Vazquez back.

  29. No way Lee goes back to Philly and all u Yankee fans thinking thed Mets will do a 3 way deal with u are crazy……the Mets want Lee, The fans want Lee, no way the Mets allow the guy they covet to go the Yankees in a deal that involves them…..especially forf Vazquez….I don’t want the Braves or Yankees unwanted trash………The Yankees may get Lee, but the Mets won’t be involved with it.

  30. DanHaren 5 years ago

    Dan Haren to hte Rangers for Martin Perez,Justin smoak and Derek Holand

    • Prince_Fielders_Donuts 5 years ago

      Dan Haren to the Mets for Omar Minaya

  31. ZeroZeroZero 5 years ago

    Joel Sherman really shouldnt be paid any attention to. In spite of his position at the Post, he has shown time and time again that he really doesnt understand how trades and baseball in general works. He just likes throwing names out there and making ridiculous suggestions.

  32. ZeroZeroZero 5 years ago

    Joel Sherman really shouldnt be paid any attention to. In spite of his position at the Post, he has shown time and time again that he really doesnt understand how trades and baseball in general works. He just likes throwing names out there and making ridiculous suggestions.

  33. Guest 5 years ago

    I don’t think the Twins trading away prospects for a rental is a good move. I doubt they’ll have the money to sign him when he hits free agency. Sounds like a Sabathia to the Brewers kind of mistake to me.

  34. dc21892 5 years ago

    The M’s will be able to get talent closer to the ML level, they would pull a trigger on a weaker package first, watch.

  35. iwishihadaclue 5 years ago

    But only if they could workout an extension. If Philly could get Lee without trading any of their top 3 prospects (and he still had over a year left on his contract), why do any Mariner fans think they deserve more for 2 months? Yea Lee would make us a much better team, but he may only make us better for 2 months and then bolt. Then what? Let someone else pony up and regret it.

    I don’t wanna hear how you’ll get more because a team wants to get into the playoffs. If that was the case NO TEAM would ever question dealing top players for a rental. That’s just some fans fantasy..it’s not reality.

    The 2 draft picks are not guarantees. At best you’ll get the 16th pick..at worse you’ll get a second round pick if a team whose 1st rd picks are protected.

  36. Did the Phillies start with Drabek, Brown, or Taylor?

    Did the Ms start with Triunfel, Pineda, or Saunders?

    No. Not even close.

    And don’t tell me about those 2 draft picks. They will not be anything close to Mejia or Flores.

  37. Yankees420 5 years ago

    The Mariners don’t have free long distance calling? 😛

  38. dc21892 5 years ago

    Yeah, the Mariners can make out well but it’s only up to what they think in the end. I think they should make a move because they can get 4 guys opposed to 2 draft picks. The M’s know what they can get, but if it’s not there im interested in seeing if they give in anyways. I just don’t want to see a team like the Mets give up blue chip prospects then have to pay an extension. Reason being, it’s going to turn into a trend in baseball and the big market teams are going to be hurting. Phils gave up some of their best for Halladay and had to give him the extension.

  39. bigpelflikesike123 5 years ago

    Let us do a comparison… two first round draft picks who will cost a lot of money to sign vs prospects who are already proven and will not cost that big signing bonus… The twins aren’t offering up ramos and the other players are financial messes. The mets are all you got and if i was old Jacky z id wait for the first deal that has mejia or flores and pounce. If mejia and flores were in this years draft they would probably both go in the top 5.

  40. Tvators 5 years ago

    Braun was 5th overall, Weeks, #2 overall, And Fielder #7, they arent getting those kinda picks for LEE, if a team w/ that high of a pick signs him they get a 2nd rd pick and supplemental 1st rder, McGehee was drafted by the cubs, Escobar was not drafted, Mat Gamel whooppee…face it the picks are a crapshoot and expensive, team much rather have prospects that are already on tehir way to MLB…

  41. iwishihadaclue 5 years ago

    No one is saying they don’t deserve good players, you just don’t deserve elite or premier players for a rental. Why is every sports reporter saying they’d get less than what other teams got the last 2 times he was traded, but some of you think they’d get more? If you had a Montero..would you offer him up for a Cliff Lee? At that price i don’t want him. Because there’s still a chance he’ll leave and now you lost a top prospect. Oh but you get 2 draft picks who’ll take years to develop and may never turn out to be anything more than a bench player.

  42. $3513744 5 years ago

    the phils gave up some of their best only because they GOT him extended, otherwise the deal would make no sense. he was of greater value to them because he wasn’t a one year rental. they locked him up long term so the stock went up. i’m just curious to see if they could talk lee into doing the same. it would really get certain teams more interested if they were able to lock him up.

  43. iwishihadaclue 5 years ago

    Mariner fans don’t see that. They think he’s more valuable because of 2 draft picks and he can push a team to the playoffs. Teams are not mortgaging their future for rentals. I just don’t understand why they don’t see that. Unless a team can hash out an extension they have no interest in trading away top prospects, that can be cheap and controllable for a rental player and 2 draft picks that are mysteries.

  44. ReverendBlack 5 years ago

    I don’t think there’s a lot to worry about with Mejia. And there’s a lot to love.

  45. ReverendBlack 5 years ago

    I don’t think there’s a lot to worry about with Mejia. And there’s a lot to love.

  46. ReverendBlack 5 years ago

    And don’t tell me about those 2 draft picks. They will not be anything close to Mejia or Flores.

    What’s that got to do with anything? You’re not just getting 2 picks, you’re getting a legitimate shot at a title. The two picks are gravy.

  47. ReverendBlack 5 years ago

    And don’t tell me about those 2 draft picks. They will not be anything close to Mejia or Flores.

    What’s that got to do with anything? You’re not just getting 2 picks, you’re getting a legitimate shot at a title. The two picks are gravy.

  48. ReverendBlack 5 years ago

    If you could guarantee a world series appearance for the Mets plus two picks at the cost of Mejia, Tejada, and one other prospect, not only would the vast majority of Mets fans but more importantly everyone in the Mets front office would make the trade today. Right or wrong, the world series is the whoooole story for most fans – and is definitely the whole story for the businessmen.

    Lee is no guarantee, no. But he’s about as close as you’re going to get.

  49. ReverendBlack 5 years ago

    If you could guarantee a world series appearance for the Mets plus two picks at the cost of Mejia, Tejada, and one other prospect, not only would the vast majority of Mets fans but more importantly everyone in the Mets front office would make the trade today. Right or wrong, the world series is the whoooole story for most fans – and is definitely the whole story for the businessmen.

    Lee is no guarantee, no. But he’s about as close as you’re going to get.

  50. iwishihadaclue 5 years ago

    You are trading for a RENTAL, who pitches every 5 days. You don’t get the 1st crack of signing him when he says..he wants to test the market. So you’d trade a top 10 prospect..for a pitcher who maybe used a dozen times for your team? how does that make any sense? Do you think the Braves would listen to an offer surrounded by Heyward? It’s easy for a fan to say i’d make the deal, cuz it’s not your career on the line.

    The Phillies didn’t give up one of their top 3 prospects for Lee (he had a year and a half left on contract) , Mariners probably didnt use any of their top 3prospects to get lee (with a full season left on contract and potential draft picks)..but you really expect or think with 2 months+ of season left..Mariners deserve a top 3 prospect from a team?

    You guys keep speaking of these draft picks, take them. You don’t even know who’ll be decent in next years draft but you speaking of these picks like a bryce harper will be left for you to pick up at 16…the very earliest. If a team valued these picks like you do, how come every team keeps saying that they wont give up top prospects for a rental? Would you sell your home in a gated community, to spend 2 months in a mansion plus the option for time sharing in places you never heard of?

  51. iwishihadaclue 5 years ago

    You are trading for a RENTAL, who pitches every 5 days. You don’t get the 1st crack of signing him when he says..he wants to test the market. So you’d trade a top 10 prospect..for a pitcher who maybe used a dozen times for your team? how does that make any sense? Do you think the Braves would listen to an offer surrounded by Heyward? It’s easy for a fan to say i’d make the deal, cuz it’s not your career on the line.

    The Phillies didn’t give up one of their top 3 prospects for Lee (he had a year and a half left on contract) , Mariners probably didnt use any of their top 3prospects to get lee (with a full season left on contract and potential draft picks)..but you really expect or think with 2 months+ of season left..Mariners deserve a top 3 prospect from a team?

    You guys keep speaking of these draft picks, take them. You don’t even know who’ll be decent in next years draft but you speaking of these picks like a bryce harper will be left for you to pick up at 16…the very earliest. If a team valued these picks like you do, how come every team keeps saying that they wont give up top prospects for a rental? Would you sell your home in a gated community, to spend 2 months in a mansion plus the option for time sharing in places you never heard of?

  52. ReverendBlack 5 years ago

    Good point. Mejia and Flores are both just like Jason Heyward. Right on.

  53. ReverendBlack 5 years ago

    Good point. Mejia and Flores are both just like Jason Heyward. Right on.

  54. boy9988 5 years ago

    Then you obviously don’t want him bad enough. And we will look somewhere else. Both NY teams seem to think they are entitled to him. Your not. If GMZ cant get a top level blue chip prospect, I don’t want him to trade Lee. Believe it to not, Seattle does have the financial flexibility to offer a competitive offer to Lee in the off-season. And if we do lose him to you in the off-season, then we get your first round pick. Its called supply and demand. We have the only supply of a Cy Young caliber pitcher on the market, and there is a lot of demand him. Everyone is going to have to make an offer we cant refuse or we will just keep him.

  55. boy9988 5 years ago

    Then you obviously don’t want him bad enough. And we will look somewhere else. Both NY teams seem to think they are entitled to him. Your not. If GMZ cant get a top level blue chip prospect, I don’t want him to trade Lee. Believe it to not, Seattle does have the financial flexibility to offer a competitive offer to Lee in the off-season. And if we do lose him to you in the off-season, then we get your first round pick. Its called supply and demand. We have the only supply of a Cy Young caliber pitcher on the market, and there is a lot of demand him. Everyone is going to have to make an offer we cant refuse or we will just keep him.

  56. iwishihadaclue 5 years ago

    If you read above..i mentioned MONTERO. I asked him if he’d trade eliyte prospects for a rental, cuz thats what MONTERO is.

  57. iwishihadaclue 5 years ago

    If you read above..i mentioned MONTERO. I asked him if he’d trade eliyte prospects for a rental, cuz thats what MONTERO is.

  58. Just_MLB 5 years ago

    strictly as a prospect, I actually would have rated Flores HIGHER than Jason Heyward…a straight up deal of Flores for Lee would actually be fair…as Flores would be a top 2 pick in the draft if he were to be available now. Mind you…he is handling minor league pitching since age 16…and he is only 18 now…

    personally i think the mets offer thole, nick evans, and a couple of pitchers not named Mejia or Niese.

  59. iwishihadaclue 5 years ago

    Exactly. They think these draft picks will get them in the top 10. It might not even get them a pick in the top 20

  60. iwishihadaclue 5 years ago

    Exactly. They think these draft picks will get them in the top 10. It might not even get them a pick in the top 20

  61. iwishihadaclue 5 years ago

    Name 2 players who will be available at number 16 in next year’s draft and that are better than the players being mentioned. If you can’t, than those picks are useless. You’re not getting anything higher than 15. In most drafts..anything after 10 is a big crapshoot…so who are these elite talented players you plan on drafting at 16?

  62. iwishihadaclue 5 years ago

    Name 2 players who will be available at number 16 in next year’s draft and that are better than the players being mentioned. If you can’t, than those picks are useless. You’re not getting anything higher than 15. In most drafts..anything after 10 is a big crapshoot…so who are these elite talented players you plan on drafting at 16?

  63. ReverendBlack 5 years ago

    Right. There can be no certainty that even if those prospects become stars the Mets will be able to surround them with enough talent to make a run in 4 years or whatever. And even if you had confidence in that, you don’t know how much better the competition will get in that time.

    There are just waaay too many variables to prefer that outcome if you have confidence Lee gives you a good shot at a title this year.

  64. iwishihadaclue 5 years ago

    You guys traded away less than stellar prospects at the BEGINNING of the season..to get into the playoffs. How did that turn out? But you wanna get back more than you invested. Sit for a second..think and realize that not just us commenters thinks its a bad deal..sports writers are not agreeing with u…gm’s dont agree with you. So how does that make anything you say about getting more make any sense. You WANT more, but you’ll only get more if a team overspends to get him. By over spending..its giving more than you should have.

  65. iwishihadaclue 5 years ago

    You guys traded away less than stellar prospects at the BEGINNING of the season..to get into the playoffs. How did that turn out? But you wanna get back more than you invested. Sit for a second..think and realize that not just us commenters thinks its a bad deal..sports writers are not agreeing with u…gm’s dont agree with you. So how does that make anything you say about getting more make any sense. You WANT more, but you’ll only get more if a team overspends to get him. By over spending..its giving more than you should have.

  66. iwishihadaclue 5 years ago

    So offer him some money or take the draft picks. You’re saying NY teams think we are entitled to him…It sounds like you think you’re entitled to get more than you should, for a player who’ll be on another teams roster for a few months. Personally i don’t want him at that price, because i want a winning team beyond this season..he does not guarantee that.

  67. ReverendBlack 5 years ago

    you wanna get back more than you invested.Just pointing out that this is irrelevant. Also:

    By over spending..its giving more than you should have.

    No, this is the same warped idea about value that’s been floating around for awhile.

    Cliff Lee does not have objective value across any two teams, let alone thirty. He doesn’t have the same value at the beginning of the season to even one team that he does in the middle. He doesn’t have the same value to a .500 club that he does to a .700 club.

    If he’s traded for lots of good prospects – more than the Ms gave up when they got him – it will reflect his value to the Mets, which exists completely independent of his value to the Ms now or ever.

  68. ReverendBlack 5 years ago

    you wanna get back more than you invested.Just pointing out that this is irrelevant. Also:

    By over spending..its giving more than you should have.

    No, this is the same warped idea about value that’s been floating around for awhile.

    Cliff Lee does not have objective value across any two teams, let alone thirty. He doesn’t have the same value at the beginning of the season to even one team that he does in the middle. He doesn’t have the same value to a .500 club that he does to a .700 club.

    If he’s traded for lots of good prospects – more than the Ms gave up when they got him – it will reflect his value to the Mets, which exists completely independent of his value to the Ms now or ever.

  69. Msforever 5 years ago

    You must be a gm since you know that gm’s think it’s a bad deal. And there’s a link to an article by a sports writer that thinks the M’s should get fair market value for Lee, regardless of what he was traded for in the past.

  70. Yankees420 5 years ago

    I agree with most of what you said, Lee does own the Yankees (but Posada got this best of him for a BB lol) and he is worth an A grade prospect + some, but I thought that they were doing the playoffs differently this year, providing less resting time between series, so that it will be virtually impossible for a pitcher to go 3 times in a 7 game series, am I remembering correctly?

  71. Yankees420 5 years ago

    I agree with most of what you said, Lee does own the Yankees (but Posada got this best of him for a BB lol) and he is worth an A grade prospect + some, but I thought that they were doing the playoffs differently this year, providing less resting time between series, so that it will be virtually impossible for a pitcher to go 3 times in a 7 game series, am I remembering correctly?

  72. But if you draft well, a first rounder plus a supplemental first rounder can net you two good prospects. Certainly prospects that are closer to the big leagues are more valuable – that’s why the Mariners would rather trade Lee than take the picks – but picks have value.

    The point is that these things aren’t black and white. Half a season of Lee has a certain value. Two high draft picks have a certain value, depending on where they are. Prospects have a certain value. It all has to balance out. I think people are underrating the value of the 3-4 marginal wins Lee is likely to produce. If you buy into the current thinking that a marginal win = ~4 million, then you’re getting $12-14 million of production for ~$4.5 million dollars. That nets you $7.5-9.5 million in value. Is a guy like Flores worth that much? Doubtful. Then you add on the draft picks, and you can see why the Mariners would ask for a pretty good haul.

  73. damnitsderek 5 years ago

    Um, so what if it isn’t a top 20 pick? The way the Mariners’ season is currently going, they’re going to have a top 10 pick “earned” on their own anyway. Tally on a mid-to-late first rounder and a supplemental first rounder in what is going to be a VERY deep draft, and I’m absolutely ecstatic about the situation.

    And the argument that if the pick isn’t in the top part of the first round then it isn’t worth Lee walking is so completely asinine and ignorant that it makes my brain hurt. Real quickly, why don’t we revisit the 2002 draft:
    1. Bryan Bullington, Pirates
    2. B.J. Upton, Rays
    3. Chris Gruler, Reds
    4. Adam Loewen, Orioles
    5. Clint Everts, Expos
    6. Zack Greinke, Royals
    7. Prince Fielder, Brewers
    8. Scott Moore, Tigers
    9. Jeff Francis, Rockies
    10. Drew Meyer, Rangers

    Hm, what a top ten that draft turned out to be. 3 out of 10 turned out to be serviceable MLB players, four if you include Jeff Francis and his injuries. Some of the later first rounders?

    16. Nick Swisher
    17. Cole Hamels
    19. James Loney
    20. Denard Span
    22. Jeremy Guthrie
    24. Matt Cain

    This is not to mention Joey Votto, Jon Lester, Jon Broxton, and Brian McCann going in the second round.

    My point is, it absolutely DOES NOT MATTER if the picks are in the top 10 or not. Good talent evaluators can find talent anywhere in the draft, and since the depth of the 2011 draft is going to be terrific, the Mariners have every reason to sit back and demand a very strong package and let the other teams come calling. There is no sense of urgency to move Lee, and I think I can speak for most of Seattle baseball management and fans that we’d be 100% content to just keep Lee for the duration of 2010 and see what happens in the offseason. It’s a perfect situation where the Mariners will be getting a good return no matter what the outcome is.

  74. damnitsderek 5 years ago

    Um, so what if it isn’t a top 20 pick? The way the Mariners’ season is currently going, they’re going to have a top 10 pick “earned” on their own anyway. Tally on a mid-to-late first rounder and a supplemental first rounder in what is going to be a VERY deep draft, and I’m absolutely ecstatic about the situation.

    And the argument that if the pick isn’t in the top part of the first round then it isn’t worth Lee walking is so completely asinine and ignorant that it makes my brain hurt. Real quickly, why don’t we revisit the 2002 draft:
    1. Bryan Bullington, Pirates
    2. B.J. Upton, Rays
    3. Chris Gruler, Reds
    4. Adam Loewen, Orioles
    5. Clint Everts, Expos
    6. Zack Greinke, Royals
    7. Prince Fielder, Brewers
    8. Scott Moore, Tigers
    9. Jeff Francis, Rockies
    10. Drew Meyer, Rangers

    Hm, what a top ten that draft turned out to be. 3 out of 10 turned out to be serviceable MLB players, four if you include Jeff Francis and his injuries. Some of the later first rounders?

    16. Nick Swisher
    17. Cole Hamels
    19. James Loney
    20. Denard Span
    22. Jeremy Guthrie
    24. Matt Cain

    This is not to mention Joey Votto, Jon Lester, Jon Broxton, and Brian McCann going in the second round.

    My point is, it absolutely DOES NOT MATTER if the picks are in the top 10 or not. Good talent evaluators can find talent anywhere in the draft, and since the depth of the 2011 draft is going to be terrific, the Mariners have every reason to sit back and demand a very strong package and let the other teams come calling. There is no sense of urgency to move Lee, and I think I can speak for most of Seattle baseball management and fans that we’d be 100% content to just keep Lee for the duration of 2010 and see what happens in the offseason. It’s a perfect situation where the Mariners will be getting a good return no matter what the outcome is.

  75. ReverendBlack 5 years ago

    …You also mentioned Heyward. Who was also a prospect at one time. The point is that your point – that all top prospects are of equal or similar value – is not a good one. They aren’t.

    If that isn’t a point you wanted to or would make, great. My bad.

  76. ReverendBlack 5 years ago

    …You also mentioned Heyward. Who was also a prospect at one time. The point is that your point – that all top prospects are of equal or similar value – is not a good one. They aren’t.

    If that isn’t a point you wanted to or would make, great. My bad.

  77. iwishihadaclue 5 years ago

    But you keep speaking of these draft picks, like you’re guaranteed a top prospect. You can’t even name ONE who’ll be available at 16 and be that top to elite prospect. I’m content with you keeping him, getting those draft picks and then saying to yourself down the line “Maybe we should’ve took a package of F-Mart, Thole and someone else”. I rather get an Oswalt where it’ll cost less in prospects AND he’s still under team control pass this year.

  78. iwishihadaclue 5 years ago

    But you keep speaking of these draft picks, like you’re guaranteed a top prospect. You can’t even name ONE who’ll be available at 16 and be that top to elite prospect. I’m content with you keeping him, getting those draft picks and then saying to yourself down the line “Maybe we should’ve took a package of F-Mart, Thole and someone else”. I rather get an Oswalt where it’ll cost less in prospects AND he’s still under team control pass this year.

  79. ReverendBlack 5 years ago

    Did you catch the game last night? I wish I’d seen it. CG 3 ER (against NYY!) throwing ~102 fastballs? Jesus.

  80. ReverendBlack 5 years ago

    Did you catch the game last night? I wish I’d seen it. CG 3 ER (against NYY!) throwing ~102 fastballs? Jesus.

  81. iwishihadaclue 5 years ago

    If that was the case, how come the Mets front office keeps saying..NO DAVIS, NIESE OR MEIJA for a rental in lee? If they weren’t..this trade would’ve happened already. Even the Twins don’t wanna give up a blocked player for a rental in Lee. How could you possibly think other GM’s and organizations are ok with this, when constant reports say otherwise?

  82. iwishihadaclue 5 years ago

    If that was the case, how come the Mets front office keeps saying..NO DAVIS, NIESE OR MEIJA for a rental in lee? If they weren’t..this trade would’ve happened already. Even the Twins don’t wanna give up a blocked player for a rental in Lee. How could you possibly think other GM’s and organizations are ok with this, when constant reports say otherwise?

  83. Yankees420 5 years ago

    I know, I thought it was 104 fastballs, maybe I misheard, but either way it made me hope that Cashman can sign him when he hits FA.

  84. Now, now, there were 4 or 5 Curves mixed in!

  85. ReverendBlack 5 years ago

    Did you even read the comment? The reason is because Lee is not a guarantee. That’s the whole point.

    If they had a guarantee, the deal would be done. There is no doubt. But there are lots of variables in baseball.

    All I was showing is that trading future potential for present certainty is something teams happily do. The argument against the trade shouldn’t be “a world series isn’t worth it”, but “it’s not certain enough that we’d win with Lee to give away big pieces of our future”.

  86. iwishihadaclue 5 years ago

    So explain why every team involved will NOT or has NOT included the players you want for this deal? The Twins said they won’t trade Ramos for a rental in Lee. The Mets have said the same about Meija. So how do these GM’s, make your point better than everyone else’s? This isn’t about his value..because he’s worth it. This is about trading away top players for 2 months…which is why they use the word rental.

    “If he’s traded for lots of good prospects – more than the Ms gave up when they got him – it will reflect his value to the Mets”

    It will also reflect that the Mets OVERPAID. Trading away controllable and affordable top prospects for a rental is a sign of desperation. How many teams have done this and paid the price? If it wasn’t..there wouldn’t be so many teams saying they’re not trading for a rental player. Whether its a Cliff Lee, Adam Dunn or joe scrub.

  87. ReverendBlack 5 years ago

    So explain why every team involved will NOT or has NOT included the players you want for this deal?

    Because both sides think they can leverage the price up & down respectively. Mystery solved.

    It will also reflect that the Mets OVERPAID.

    There’s just no way at all to know that. You are betting on particular outcomes. Good job. But even if the trades prospects become good players — which is not a foregone conclusion by any means — if the Mets get a world series out of it, they almost certainly will not agree that they overpaid.

    Trading away controllable and affordable top prospects for a rental is a sign of desperation. How many teams have done this and paid the price?

    Dunno. But even if 3/5 teams who make this choice on this scale ultimately don’t pull off a world series, it might still be worth it for many teams to try – Mets included. It’s not like it hasn’t worked for any team. You continue to underestimate the value of a title to a franchise.

  88. iwishihadaclue 5 years ago

    Like i’ve repeated multiple times..take the draft picks. The Twins are reluctant to include Ramos who is blocked and has lil value to them long-term. That alone should tell you something. And he’s not a better prospect than a F-Mart, Meija or Flores

  89. iwishihadaclue 5 years ago

    So there hasn’t been anyone associated to the Mariners who suggested a Meija and Pagan for Lee deal? I hope you do trade him to Philly..i’m sure they’d love to return the scrubs they got from you in return.

  90. iwishihadaclue 5 years ago

    Sure the Mets can trade him away for their best prospects and watch him walk away after the season..with the hopes of getting 1 World Series. Kinda reminds me how Bartolo Colon was traded for Cliff Lee, Grady Sizemore and a Brandon Phillips. How did that turn out?I’m sure teams believe in your philosophy, because teams develop top talent and trade for rentals ALL THE TIME. Because those picks netted when he leaves is just “gravy”. Btw Meija has been put on the DL. That’s one less Mets prospect we know you wont be getting.

  91. iwishihadaclue 5 years ago

    Noone said he is useless. The only thing i’m saying (and others), is Lee plus two draft picks(that are uncertanties) does NOT guarantee you should get an organizations TOP prospects. Is it something you should wish and want..sure. Is it something that will and has to happen..no.

    His value is not the question. It’s how much a team should invest for a few months of that value. He was traded twice in the last year and each time..none of the other teams top prospect was used. They had him for a longer period of time, he was affordable and they knew they’d net draft picks. So how does him having less time under contract make it a better situation for the Mariners? I know im not crazy, because everytime i see an article regarding Lee and trade..teams say they are RELUCTANT to trade their best prospects for a rental. So i’m not making this up.

  92. iwishihadaclue 5 years ago

    If the Yankees didn’t trade Montero for a season worth of Halladay, they wouldn’t involve Hughes, Joba, Cano or Melky Cabrera in a deal for Santana (with extension) what makes you think they’d do that for a few months of Cliff Lee? Keep hoping for the Yankees to get involved and lemme know how that turns out.

  93. Msforever 5 years ago

    Damn. Just noticed you already said what I just posted. I’m not surprised that most M’s fans feel this way.

  94. Yankees420 5 years ago

    I didn’t mean to say that their system is much better, and I would listen to the argument that the two farm systems are basically equivalent, but if I had to rank them I would put the Yankees a slot or two below the Red Sox. (This doesn’t mean that I like their system better, I much prefer our farm hands, just trying to be objective.)

  95. ReverendBlack 5 years ago

    Like any other 5-tool prospect, it’s difficult to overhype Westmoreland’s potential.

    Kelly doesn’t impress you? Devastating, but he impresses the hell out of everyone else whose opinion matters.

  96. CrustyJuggler 5 years ago

    I can guarantee you that the Mets have nothing near Lee, Sizemore or Phillips in their system. Besides, that’s like one of the most lopsided examples out there. What about all the deals that have the prospects flop or fall well short of their perceived ceilings? Which is about 10X as likely.

  97. Msforever 5 years ago

    Damn. We’re not going to get Met’s prospects. And please, enough with the Bartolo Colon for Cliff Lee, Grady Sizemore, and Brandon Phillips example. You guys don’t have anyone of that calibur in your system, and if you did, they’re part of a list of 50 “untouchable” overhyped prospects in the Mets system. And don’t think people forgot what garbage you gave up for Johan Santana. Another reason why I’m hoping the Mets keep Lee and take the picks or trade him to a team with better prospects.
    I guess this means Josh Thole won’t headline a trade package for Cliff Lee

  98. Msforever 5 years ago

    Some team (I forgot who?) fleeced another team for Johan Santana.

  99. Msforever 5 years ago

    The Mets are all we got? Yeah. You guys have all the leverage in this deal.

  100. Msforever 5 years ago

    What? You don’t want Thole. I heard if we pried him from the Mets that we’d be ripping them off.

  101. Msforever 5 years ago

    The bullpen catcher for South Carolina State Tech is better than Josh Thole.

  102. Just_MLB 5 years ago

    if it is flores or mejia …its ONLY flores or mejia..

    if not, a package of 4-5 lesser prospects ( not including Flores or Mejia )
    should be considered.

  103. Just_MLB 5 years ago

    if it is flores or mejia …its ONLY flores or mejia..

    if not, a package of 4-5 lesser prospects ( not including Flores or Mejia )
    should be considered.

  104. Just_MLB 5 years ago

    i was being sarcastic.

  105. Just_MLB 5 years ago

    i was being sarcastic.

  106. Just_MLB 5 years ago

    yeah, honestly, as much as he is worth, i think the best move for the mets
    would be to trade for Oswalt, then sign Lee in the off-season…trading for
    Lee now, means u can never have both…

    a rotation in 2010 of santana/pelfrey/oswalt/niese/dickey would give the
    mets a solid chance of winning this year..a 1-5 of santana, oswalt, lee,
    pelfrey, niese
    would give the mets the best rotation in baseball for 2011 and 2012…

  107. Just_MLB 5 years ago

    yeah, honestly, as much as he is worth, i think the best move for the mets
    would be to trade for Oswalt, then sign Lee in the off-season…trading for
    Lee now, means u can never have both…

    a rotation in 2010 of santana/pelfrey/oswalt/niese/dickey would give the
    mets a solid chance of winning this year..a 1-5 of santana, oswalt, lee,
    pelfrey, niese
    would give the mets the best rotation in baseball for 2011 and 2012…

  108. damnitsderek 5 years ago

    I’m pretty sure we’re all arguing with Bill Bavasi. That would clear this WHOLE thing up.

  109. damnitsderek 5 years ago

    I’m pretty sure we’re all arguing with Bill Bavasi. That would clear this WHOLE thing up.

  110. ReverendBlack 5 years ago

    2.08 ERA with 74 strikeouts and 16 walks in 95 innings last year — in split time pitching and playing SS.

    After going 0-3 with a 6.51 ERA in April and May, Kelly was 1-0 with a 3.68 ERA in three starts to begin June. Not that ERA & W-L is the kind of thing you look at to assess a 20 y/o pitching prospect anyway. 53 Ks in 58 innings you might, though.

    Plus sinker, plus curve with plus-plus potential, good movement on his change. Advanced command for his age, great mechanics.

    He still projects for a 2011 callup at 21 years of age on an AL East club. Not saying you need to be impressed, just that your opinion is way out of sync with the professionals’.

  111. ReverendBlack 5 years ago

    I’m not here to overhype him or even hype him. I responded specifically to your claim that he doesn’t impress you. And all I’ve really said is that he impresses just about everyone else, inside & outside the Sox org. You won’t hear any argument from me that prior and present Sox prospects are overhyped at times. You will hear an argument if you’re going as far as to say guys like Kelly aren’t even impressive.

    You threw out a stat, I threw a few back. Now the stats don’t matter because of the level? I actually agree with that, but I’m not the one who brought stats up in the first place =P

    Kelly’s youth & inexperience are not disputed, but they’re not a knock against him. He’s received the acclaim he has despite his youth, because his stuff is that good.

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