The White Sox’ 2011 Rotation

The White Sox have five solid starters under team control for 2011 and no impact prospects ready to take over a rotation spot, so Chicago heads into this offseason with a clear sense of Ozzie Guillen's options for next year. Mark Buehrle, Jake Peavy, John Danks, Gavin Floyd and Edwin Jackson can all be retained for 2011 and all but Danks are already under contract.

Freddy Garcia's contract is up after the season, but he has said he'd like to return to the White Sox. The team doesn't have much MLB-ready pitching in the upper minors, so bringing Garcia back on a one-year deal would make some sense.

The White Sox have called on 27-year-old right-hander Carlos Torres to make occasional starts this year and last year, but he doesn't project as a regular starter. Baseball America explained before the season that Torres "profiles as a long reliever/ sixth starter" and that's how the White Sox have used him. His major league ERA (6.21) is high, but his minor league numbers are more respectable (3.52 ERA, 8.1 K/9, 4.0 BB/9).

Chris Sale, the team's 2010 first rounder, has yet to start a pro game, but could be converted back to starting. Sale would need minor experience out of the rotation before starting in the majors, but he could eventually join the team's rotation.

It's not hard to explain why the White Sox don't have much in the way of starting pitching prospects. They have traded a number of young pitchers away since last year, including John Ely, Daniel Hudson and Clayton Richard. However if the White Sox had held onto those pitchers, they wouldn't have Jackson, who has been tremendous for Chicago, or Peavy.

The White Sox could make more trades, of course, but their rotation appears set for 2011. They have to determine whether to sign Garcia or another similar pitcher, but they'll be able to focus on other parts of the team this offseason. That's a good thing, since their catcher, DH and first baseman hit free agency and their entire bullpen could be in flux. 

76 Responses to The White Sox’ 2011 Rotation Leave a Reply

  1. Umm…Chris Sale?

    Lucas Harrell?

    • $1519287 5 years ago

      Chris Sale has never started a professional baseball game.

      – BNS

      • True…

        His lack of minor league bull pen experience has been a real detriment so far too.

        I agree that he will need at least a month or two in the minors but he has to be in consideration.

        • He would be if not for 5 starters that either have been all stars or on the cusp on being one. And don’t get me wrong, I absolutely love his stuff and his control (his slider, which was considered his worst pitch when drafted, has made Joe Mauer look like Yunieski Bentancourt) but he needs to get used to throwing a lot of pitches. He throws with the “inverted w” which is believed to be very rough on a pitchers arm. I do, however, see him a very good starter down the road if he can stay healthy.

      • To clarify, IMO Chirs Sale is an unknown. He could be the closer, setup man, AAA starter, or possibly a major league starter. I just think he should be mentioned as a possibly, I have a hard time believing that they would give a significant number of starts to Carlos Torres with Chris Sale there as an option.

        NM. I now see the addition.

      • Dave_Gershman 5 years ago

        In every one of his appearances this season, he has had command of his 97-99 MPH fastball. I look at this team as one who loves to have a solid bullpen, and if Jenks is Non-tendered, I like Chris Sale as a late inning reliever if not the closer.

        Also, if all goes right through spring training next season, their rotaion set’s up as Buehrle, Peavy, Danks, Floyd, and Jackson…I’d rather ride that than give an inexpierenced rookie the opporunity…Especially with what the Sox have seen out of Edwin Jackson.

        • vtadave 5 years ago

          I don’t think the Sox spent the 13th overall pick on a guy to NOT give him a chance to throw 200 innings (eventually) rather than 60-70. I think he’ll start in AAA and be a nice insurance policy once Peavy or another starter gets hurt.

          • Dave_Gershman 5 years ago

            What about drew storen

          • vtadave 5 years ago

            Good point, but different situation in my book. The Nats took Storen knowing they could get him at slot, and also knowing that they would have to pay their #1 pick in that draft a boatload of money.

        • EdinsonPickle 5 years ago

          Yeah, I can see the Sox pulling a move similar to what they did with Feliz by slotting him into the closer role.

          I’d like to see him start, but for the team with their solid rotation it might be better to put his electric stuff in the pen next year. I do want to see him start sooner or later though.

  2. TwinsVet 5 years ago

    Floyd, Jackson, and Danks all strike me as guys who could have a breakout season and really step it up to an All-Star level – their ceilings seem higher than anything they’ve done over the course of a season yet in their careers. Could be a very, very scary staff if 1-2 of them do establish themselves on that next level.

    • Jackson in the interesting one. Since Cooper has worked with him, he has been virtually un-hittable.

      • TwinsVet 5 years ago

        He’s been ridiculous since going to Chicago. But it’s such a small sample size, and I’m skeptical that any pitching coach could have such an immediate impact on someone.

        The talent is clearly there – I’m just not ready to say he’s going to be in the Cy hunt next year quite yet…

        • The thing is, the way Don Cooper said it, he knew exactly what Jackson was doing wrong, and said it was an easy fix. That combined with success hes had should give a lot of credit to Coop.

        • I don’t think he’s quite Cy Young material YET. But look at how fast Cooper turned around Matt Thornton

      • EdinsonPickle 5 years ago

        Cooper is awesome!

    • I think you’re right about that chance, and I really think John Danks will be an all star pitcher next year. However, being a pessimistic Sox fan, I can’t help myself from seeing some flaws. Floyd has shown he can be unhittable. However, for every great game he pitches, he has another one that he lets up 3 homeruns. Also, Jake Peavy is pretty much an unknown at this point. No pitcher has ever suffered the same injury, so no one knows his recovery time. As for Jackson, you could be right about the breakout capabilities he has. But has he turned a corner, or will he regress to the pitcher he’s always been (which is not bad for a 5th starter). He also has only faced the Orioles, Indians and a banged up Tigers team so far.

      • All valid points. However I like Floyd a little more than Danks. With regards to your Jackson opponents point. It could be argued that those teams offenses are not much worse or even better than the NL teams that were shelling him.

        • whitesoxfan424 5 years ago

          I personally give the edge to Danks strictly because he throws lefty.

  3. pksox12 5 years ago

    Best rotation in baseball 2011.

    • TwinsVet 5 years ago

      I remember when the Sox crowd was saying “best rotation for 2010, hands down”.

      Don’t you think it’s, like, you know, completely premature to make such declarations?

      • dro03 5 years ago

        We were for a couple months this year, including our bullpen. It’s not out of the question to expect that for a full season, when we’ve seen it in glimpses

        • TwinsVet 5 years ago

          Sure, it’s possible. But there’s alot of other teams that have that possibility, too. Not to mention we haven’t even seen where guys like Lee are going to land. But declaring “best rotation” is alot different than saying “possibly the best rotation”.

          • Exactly. I got caught up in the hype last offseason, and this new rotation looks even better, but there are some damn good ones elsewhere. Especially if the Yankees get Cliff Lee

          • lolpods 5 years ago

            cliff lee is a candidate to fall off hard. SSS, but it’s already happening in texas. his stuff was never overpowering, he just had ungodly control of it. of course that could be the reason he stays on 6 more years…

        • PujolsHollidayWestbrook 5 years ago

          I agree, a little too early, especially with Peavy as an unknown and depending on where others, like Cliff Lee sign.

      • pksox12 5 years ago

        Edwin Jackson > Sweaty Freddy any day, plus Peavy will be back. And possibly one of the best defensive/offensive teams assuming they retain Konerko (or pursue Dunn, Fielder) , Manny, AJP, Omar. I don’t want to see anymore of this Kotsay bullsh!t in the starting lineup. It’s hard to believe how terrible this team was the first two months of the season.

        • baseball52 5 years ago

          There is absolutely no idea what to expect from Peavy.

      • whitesoxfan424 5 years ago

        Yes… it’s completely premature, considering NO ONE has any idea if Peavy will even pitch again… and if he does, can he be effective again?

        • TwinsVet 5 years ago

          Agree completely. If peavy is back and good, you’re in the conversation. If he’s not there’s a few too many question marks april 1st to declare it the best.

    • Possibly. But the Sox still have glaring holes in their lineup that need to be fixed if they want to be a championship contender. Plus look at the bullpen. Yikes.

    • baseballdude 5 years ago

      nope bostons is

    • myname_989 5 years ago

      That’s a ridiculous statement. Like TwinsVet said, you don’t know what any team is going to do this year in free agency, among other things, but with the way some of the rotations have performed this year, it’s hard to imagine the White Sox having the best rotation in baseball, especially since you don’t know what you’re going to get out of Peavy.

      With the way that young Padres staff has pitched this year, it’s hard to imagine that they won’t be even better next year with experience under their belts. They’ve been the best in baseball this year, and should be next year as well. You also have to look at some of the other rotations in the league. Teams like the Braves, Cardinals, Giants (with a rebound from Lincecum), Phillies, Rays and even A’s will all be really good next year.

    • Ian_Smell 5 years ago

      Is it October 2011 already?

  4. Lucas Harrell is just as likely to be that “stashed in the pocket” 6th rotation member as Torres.

  5. rpterrell 5 years ago

    Yeah, where’s Sale? He’s going to at least get consideration as a starter…

  6. dro03 5 years ago

    Gotta see it all come together for a full season. These guys were horrendous for the first 60 games, then were unhittable for like 50, then average since. If they all perform above average consistently we have at least the top 5 staff in the league. A big part of that equation is Floyd and Buerhle performing at a top level for a complete season, since they epitomized this back and forth of greatness to awfullness 15 games at a time. We know Danks is a good low ERA guy with a high ceiling, and Peavy is good as long as he isn’t injured. Jackson looks great in white and black and I think Freddie can either walk or come back as a 6th starter/long reliever to extend his career.

  7. Nicolas_C 5 years ago

    Any idea when Peavy is gonna be ready to pitch again?

    • That’s a serious concern. No pitcher has ever detatched their entire Lat muscle. He says spring training, and with a lack of reference, you have to believe him.

    • pksox12 5 years ago

      should be ready for spring training, on schedule

  8. If one of the projected starters is not back, I expect it to be Danks. Due to not wanting to sign a long term contract and the fact that the Sox have a ton of money invested in starters.

    I am not sure what they would be able to get for him though.

    • lolpods 5 years ago

      danks is one of kenny’s crown jewels. i would be shocked if they didn’t re-sign him.

    • My first impression of your comment was that I disagree. I was feeling that Danks was more likely to sign a deal with the Sox than be traded. However, after thinking about it, Danks may be the odd man out. Thats assuming that Peavy shows that he can pitch again. If that happens and the rotation looks like this…Peavy, Buehrle, Jackson, Floyd and Garcia(I know he would have to be signed), I could see Kenny using Danks as the centerpiece of a deal for a stud DH/1B. Fielder?…maybe

      Im totally convinced that Kenny wont go through another season without a full time DH. If they sign Konerko and trade for Fielder they can share time at DH and 1B. If there are issues with any of the starters we have Sale to become a starter.

      Of course…this would eliminate Sale from closer consideration….sigh

      Bottom line…I really see this off season being very busy for Kenny. Whether to sign Paulie, AJ, Putz, Garcia and Omar. Can he dump Teahen and find a 3B who can actually catch and throw the ball. Is he happy with CQ in RF or will he be traded and another corner outfielder brought in? Whos going to close?

      Lots of questions…and lots of work for Kenny and Rick

  9. Peavy is always an injury concern. He’s almost as bad as having Rich Harden in your rotation. The Sox need to make sure they have a viable 6th starter as you can count on Peavy having at least a stint or two on the DL.

  10. White Sox have a solid team already for next year and probably could be in the position like this year to win.

    SP- John Danks
    SP- Jake Peavy
    SP- Edwin Jackson
    SP- Mark Buehrle
    SP- Gavin Floyd

    LRP- Carlos Torres
    RP- Scott Linebrink
    RP- Chris Sale
    RP- F/A
    SU- Scott Thornton
    SU- JJ Putz
    CL- Bobby Jenks

    C- Tyler Flowers/AJ Pierzynski
    1B- Dayan Viceido
    2B- Gordon Beckham
    3B- Mike Teahen
    SS- Alexei Ramirez
    RF- Carlos Quentin
    CF- Alex Rios
    LF- Juan Pierre
    DH- Paul Konerko (if they sign him back) if not Adam Dunn or Lance Berkman

    • Its Matt Thorton and mark teahen. Also Putz is a f/a too. Also I do not expect Teahen to be at third. He is a butcher there.

    • danks50 5 years ago

      Jenks will be non-tendered next year and likely gone, Sale’s plan was to be used as a reliever for the stretch run this season then go back to work as a starter, Viciedo and Teahen basically defensively destroy that infield and almost assuredly won’t both start in 2011, on top of the fact I have no idea we had a Scott Thornton and Mike Teahen on the team.

      Still awhile til the offseason but I doubt Kenny makes that awful rotating DH mistake again and looks to fill that hole, works on resigning Paulie for a couple more years and tries to solve his closer/back of the pen woes.

    • vtadave 5 years ago

      Maybe they can sign Rob Barajas as a backup catcher and fill the void in the bullpen with Karl Wood.

  11. baconslayer09 5 years ago

    With the way Chris Sale has pitched out of the bullpen, I have hard time believing that he’s not an impact prospect.

    He’s blown hitters away with a 97-99 MPH fastball (averaging 96) and with few exceptions, his control isn’t as bad as his walk rates indicate.

    Of course, he won’t be throwing as fast as a starter (maybe 92-93), but his change-up and breaking pitches are superb. The only things of concern are his control and his health (questionable mechanics).

    He should definitely be the top prospect in the Sox’ system heading into next season. His delivery really reminds me of Jered Weaver.

  12. Peavy is certainly the key to the rotation for next year. If hes able to pitch it makes the whole group much better. Personally, Im extremely skeptical that Peavy will be able to take the ball every 5 days and even if hes skipped occasionally, I just dont see him having the same stuff he once did. He could learn to pitch well with less, but I think it would take a year or so for him to learn how.
    I hope Im wrong..I really like Peavy. I was glad that the Sox got him but I just wonder if hes going to be able to throw like he used to with that repaired shoulder

    • Antonio Nicarelli 5 years ago

      If Peavy cannot go, a rotation of Buerhle, Danks, Floyd, Jackson, and Garcia ain’t bad. It isn’t “the best in baseball,” but 7 teams in the playoffs won’t have that, either. However, paying Peavy 16Mil to miss another season? – OUCH!

      • I agree completely but at some point Freddy is going to start running out of gas. Hes been great this year…far better than anyone expected Id say, but I dont expect that kind of production next year

        • Antonio Nicarelli 5 years ago

          Freddy just turned 34 in June. Granted he is not who he was 5 years ago, but no reason to think he will be “out of gas” next year. His ERA is 4.82, but he is 11-5 due to good offense when he pitches, and facing other 5th starters who are worse than him. But he should be able to pitch similarly next year ERA wise, but probably have a record closer to 10-8.

  13. Antonio Nicarelli 5 years ago

    I think there is no way that Buerhle/Peavy/Danks/Floyd/Jackson are all in the rotation. It’s too much $$$, nearly 50 Mil, when there are other holes. One should be traded for that big bat we need, preferable to play RF and have Quentin DH – and bat SIXTH. I imagine Konerko and AJ (arbitration?) and Teahen are back in their spots another year as we wait on Vieciedo (1B), Flowers and Morel to be ML ready. But another season with Freddie at Starter #5 won’t be bad.

  14. AJP is a free agent, and Castro the current backup has done a great job. See how this Flowers kid does as a September call up, and if the Sox think he’s ready, I think Castro will unrightfully be the odd man out, especially with AJ’s bad year at the plate.

    • Antonio Nicarelli 5 years ago

      Castro is under contract for next year. Flowers, supposedly more offensively ready than defensively, only hit .225 in AAA this year. Given the limited time he will play during a pennant race, count on him being back in the minors to start 2011. AJ is the real question, but I don’t see the Sox letting him go with no replacement. But I see no long term contract, either. Given the down offensive season, the Sox may see a chance to make hay by offering arbitration.

  15. NYY92 5 years ago

    gosh daniel hudson is looking great for the D-Backs,everything you could expect from him and more

  16. Haha dude some of you guys comments are hilarious. But ok down to business now. The White Sox have the potential to have one of the top 5/6 rotations in baseball (the Yankees, Red Sox, Giants, Padres, and Cardinals should all be in the conversation). In 2000 Mark Buehrle was brought up and the Sox used him out of the bullpen. The same has happened with Sale but the difference is that Sale’s stuff is better than Mark’s so as stated by most above he has the potential to work out the back end of the bullpen. He’ll most likely be working out the bullpen but it kind of lays on what happens with Peavy. If he’s healthy Sale’s in the bullpen, if he’s not then I think theres a very good chance you see Chris either setting up for someone or getting setup to close the game. It’ll be a interesting offseason but i’m more interested in seeing what happens with the corner infield and bullpen than I am with the rotation.

    Questions to be asking
    1. Who will be starting at 1st base? Will the Sox bring back the captain, fan favorite, and mvp candidate Paul Konerko or will they hand the keys to Dayan Viciedo or sign another free agent

    2. Who mans the hot corner? Omar will be a free agent and a year older. Teahen has been a disappointment in the eyes of kenny (still dont understand that move, and puzzled even more by the 3 year extension). Brent Morel has no major league experience and Beltre will be available but will require a payday.

    3. What happens at dh? Will Manny be brought back? I mean from day one it has sound like strictly a rental and not to mention the agent that represents him; the demonic agent from hell Scott Boras. Is Viciedo instead the answer for this hole?

    4. What changes are made in the bullpen? Is Jenks even offered a contract. Tony Pena could very well find himself out of Chicago (Love Kenny but probably his worst trade ever). Is Putz brought back. Is the closer job going to someone that’s in house (Sale, Thornton, Jenks) or in the free agent class.

    5. Will Peavy be back healthy? Even if he is will he be the Jake Peavy leading up to his injury or the Jake Peavy of the first month and a half of this season

    • My 2 cents worth to your questions…

      1. Id like Konerko brought back but Im not sure if he would settle for a 2 year deal which is probably what the Sox will want him to accept. Id certainly prefer him to some other FA’s and Im not sold on Viciedo at any defensive position at this point.

      2. For good or bad, I think Teahen is going to be our 3rd baseman in 2011 unless kenny can find a sucker to take him. Ill never understand that signing either. He was about to be DFA from the Royals and along comes Kenny to save his butt. Im sure Teahen would have been happy with a 1 year deal at that point with a team option. Sign Omar for one more year as a backup like this year.

      3. I think CQ needs to be a full time DH or share the spot with Paulie occasionally. Id like to find a decent corner outfielder and get CQ out of right. Under no circumstances would I want Manny back. Hes a ticking time bomb and wouldnt have much of a buy in if he gets a 2 year deal and Im sure some fool will give him one. Im not even sure Viciedo is capable of being a full time DH. He needs to understand that its ok to occasionally let some bad pitches go by and take a walk. If he can impress in spring training give hm a shot but I really think hes a .250 hitter at best now.
      4. I see jenks and Pena being gone in 2011. Jenks will be too expensive and likely non tendered. Pena can be replaced for less $$$. Putz probably should be signed to a 2 year deal but I have a feeling hes going to want a huge increase and a guaranteed closers job so he may walk….unless Kenny gives him the closers job. Kenny will have to spend lots of time rebuilding the pen this off season. Santos, Thornton, Sale and unfortunately Linebrink(he has one more year right?) are there so if we can sign Putz it looks like Kenny needs to fill 2 spots
      5. Peavy is the key as far as Im concerned. If he can be effective we have a good staff. If hes not his old self, or cant pitch at all, thats a problem. Sign Freddy if hes reasonable. If not, there will likely be a good 5th starter who can be had reasonably.

      6. That leaves catcher…and Im not sold on Flowers and I like AJ but lets face it, AJ cant throw anyone out and hes not exactly getting better with the bat so if someone overpays for him, he needs to go…but…whos gonna catch then. I think catcher will be the most difficult decision for Kenny. Castro is great as a back up

  17. windycitywarrior 5 years ago

    I agree. I think if they get an idea of Peavy’s recovery then that will determine what to do with Sale. If Peavy is out then Sale is a starter. If not then I think he comes out of the bullpen. Don’t be surprised if they don’t sign a closer and let Sale and Santos duke it out for the role.
    I think they sign Paulie for three years and a club option for a fourth. A.J. will be back on a two year deal I think. I think they will trade Tyler Flowers in the off season. With the way he has played I don’t see how they do not bring Omar back if he wants to. A year older. Big deal he outplays guys 15 years his junior. The real wildcard in all of this is Manny Ramirez. I think if he doesn’t rub Ozzie the wrong way then they bring him back for one year with a base salary of like 7 million with incentives that bring it up to 12. Yeah thats a lot of money but I mean come on its Manny Ramirez. He makes whole line ups better because guys don’t want to pitch to him. The other day when Konerko hit that HR in the Cleveland game. I think that guy served that up to him because Manny was on deck and he figured he had a better chance of getting Paulie to ground out or whatever then Manny. Wrong dude. I say bring Manny back on a 1 year deal and take the Central. Go White Sox.

  18. I see the Sox non-tendering Jenks and Pena. Resign AJ, Putz, and Paulie. Go hard after Dunn. Sign a free agent reliever like Frasor.
    SP- Peavy, Beurhle, Floyd, Danks, Jackson
    RP- Torres (LR), Threets, Linebrink, Frasor (FA), Santos, Thornton , Putz (CL)
    Lineup- Pierre, Rios, Konkero, Dunn, Quentin, AJ, Ramirez, Teahen, Beckham
    Bench: Castro, Vizquel, Viciedo, Jones

    • striker 5 years ago

      I could live with that. I wonder where that would leave our payroll though. Paulie = $8m. AJ = $4m. Putz = $5m. Dunn = $11m. Frasor = $3m

      I doubt Viciedo rides the bench. He’s better off in AAA.
      KW has never been one to get hitters via the free agent market, at least expensive ones like Dunn. So I don’t see that going down.

      I really wonder if picking up Jackson is a precursor for a Floyd for Fielder trade.

      • Antonio Nicarelli 5 years ago

        I’m feeling you, striker. Money is an issue, and I still see trading a starter for a big bat instead of having nearly $50 Mil in the rotation. Jackson was brought in to get Dunn in the first place, but I don’t see us signing him as a free agent.

        Viciedo is only 21. Let him grow in the minors another season or two, just like Morel and Flowers. We don’t want to trade any more youth though, as we are already starting to get old.

        Me, I’d be willing to give Texas both a starter and CQ, plus cash, for Hamilton. I doubt they would go for it though.

      • Antonio Nicarelli 5 years ago

        I’m feeling you, striker. Money is an issue, and I still see trading a starter for a big bat instead of having nearly $50 Mil in the rotation. Jackson was brought in to get Dunn in the first place, but I don’t see us signing him as a free agent.

        Viciedo is only 21. Let him grow in the minors another season or two, just like Morel and Flowers. We don’t want to trade any more youth though, as we are already starting to get old.

        Me, I’d be willing to give Texas both a starter and CQ, plus cash, for Hamilton. I doubt they would go for it though.

    • TwinsVet 5 years ago

      If I’m a Sox fan, that’s the big thing I’m watching this winter: Who’s the big bat going to be?

      Assuming for a second that they bring back Paul (I really can’t see him going anywhere), and that lineup isn’t very intimidating WITHOUT a guy like Dunn. Add a Dunn/Fielder/or maybe even a guy like Werth, and it’s pretty respectable.

  19. caballete3 5 years ago

    Nobody see the numbers that Miguel Socolovich did in Double A and Triple A this season? he deserves a chance in the big league

  20. caballete3 5 years ago

    Miguel Socolovich rhp in triple a deserves a chance to be call up to the big league

  21. baseballdude 5 years ago

    im praying with u jack

  22. whitesoxfan424 5 years ago


  23. BigMike2me 5 years ago

    Like you guys did this year, and maybe again next year!!

  24. pksox12 5 years ago

    Well I’m not going to assume, I know the Tigers will be $hitty next year too.

  25. lug 5 years ago

    What are you like 12? Anyways, yeah thanks for pointing out some of the most obvious things in the world. There are no gaurantees we get it dude we are all speculating at best.
    Buehrle is much better than you think 12-10 sub 4 ERA and will once again like every freaking year over the last 10 years throw over 200 innings. Tigers have like two starters with a better ERA 1 of which had to spend time in the minors and 1 with more wins PLEASE!
    Who is our ace? I don’t know!! They are all pretty freakin good, does it really matter that much? They all like every other rotation pitch every five days. Peavy is always hurt (you better hope he gets hurt again) and yes we deal with it and deal with it pretty well as we are just 3 1/2 out. Get your head out and figure out what is going on rather than just being a hater. Don’t hate the players, hate the game!!!!! lol

  26. lug 5 years ago

    Dude is it 4:20 already? I said who is our ace? Since you asked the question if those two would be out who would it be?
    It IS a bad thing if you only have two starters with a sub 4.00 ERA!
    I know darn well who your ace is and I think he is awesome the drop off after him is remarkable on the Tigers staff, but if bad starts is your thing and from reading above you like to point them out then shall we look at Justin’s historical first months of the season, don’t look I will tell you very, very, very $hitty. I don’t even want to mention but i will that he already in 60 fewer innings this year has given up more walks this year than last and lets not ignore the fact that he is even less efficient this year with his pitch counts going sky high. It is a good thing you mention 2006 and 2007 with him cause I smell a flame out with him sooner than later, but i still think he is very good.

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