Theo Epstein Rumors: Wednesday

The Cubs and Red Sox could work out compensation for Theo Epstein today and announce the deal Friday, Peter Gammons of MLB Network said on WEEI’s Mut & Merloni show. Gammons also says the rebuilding process Epstein is about to undertake is “far greater” than the one he inherited in Boston nine years ago. Here are the latest rumors about Epstein with the most recent updates up top:

  • The Cubs-Padres talks appear to be developing more smoothly than the Cubs-Red Sox talks, according to Morosi (on Twitter).
  • There seems to be more optimism from the Red Sox today, according to Nick Cafardo of the Boston Globe (Twitter link).
  • Talks are going slowly and Boston’s asking price remains high, according to Jon Heyman of SI.com
  • The discussions were progressing well as of this morning, according to Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports (Twitter link).
  • We heard earlier today that the Padres could lose a high-ranking front office member when Epstein starts hiring in Chicago.


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156 Comments on "Theo Epstein Rumors: Wednesday"


start_wearing_purple
start_wearing_purple
3 years 10 months ago

I thought teams weren’t allowed to make any announcements while the World Series was being played.

Drew Tweedie
3 years 10 months ago

Technically, there is no game Friday. 

start_wearing_purple
start_wearing_purple
3 years 10 months ago

Technically the World Series will still be going on.

Drew Tweedie
3 years 10 months ago

Technically, you are correct.

John
3 years 10 months ago

There’s no game that day. So the announcement can be made genius.

EarlyMorningBoxscore
3 years 10 months ago

It was stated earlier that no announcement can be made during the World Series. Even though there is no game the World Series would still be going on. That is how it was interpreted. No need try and make someone feel like crap “genius”. 

MaineSox
3 years 10 months ago

I believe they would have to get permission to announce anything on Friday, even being an off day.

Jntg4
3 years 10 months ago

Correct, and the new CBA is supposed to be out the same day.

MaineSox
3 years 10 months ago

I’ll believe that when I see it, but yeah, that would make it really unlikely that they are allowed to announce anything that day.

East Coast Bias
3 years 10 months ago

Cardinals are so good, they’re going to win the series in 2 games. Book it!

cachhubguy
3 years 10 months ago

It’s suppose to be an off day, although the weather may change that.

jb226
3 years 10 months ago

This is apparently what happened with the Ricketts’ announcing they had officially completed the sale a couple years ago.  Bottom line is they just asked MLB if they could announce it during a World Series off-day and MLB said yes, which is the possibility they’re likely talking about now.

3 years 10 months ago

Watching the Red Sox self destruct from almost every level is humorous.  From the play on the field, in the dugout, clubhouse all the way up to the executive level is spectacularly self destructive.  Then they ask for Garza???  LMFAO

BoSoXaddict
3 years 10 months ago

 What was the harm in STARTING the negotiations by asking for Garza? Nothing wrong with aiming high..

Phillies_Aces35
3 years 10 months ago

People seem to always forget the art of a negotiation before they decide to make their point about the ridiculousness of a request.

Red Sox: Highball
Cubs: Lowball

Final Deal: the Middle.

Let’s ignore common sense though… LMFAO they negotiated properly.

es0terik
3 years 10 months ago

And I heard that ever since the Globe story, John Henry’s KFC location isn’t doing so well anymore either. Self destruction on every level.

CircusFresh
3 years 10 months ago

Obviously, bc if you want to start a negotiations you concede all points and just ask for your safety school offer?

Did you learn how to negotiate from President Obama?  Give up everything and then claim you couldnt get what you want?

3 years 10 months ago

Peter Gammons is the ultimate homer and well misinformed.

godzillacub
3 years 10 months ago

Misinformed how? Because he thought BA’s #48 prospect, Trey McNutt in preseason rankings would be Boston’s #25 prospect? Or that Brett Jackson hit from the right-side and played right field? Or that the Cubs prospect system is in the bottom 3 of baseball?

Does the dude even follow baseball anymore? Cause he’s making it sound like he doesn’t.

jwredsox
3 years 10 months ago

Trey McNutt is a 2-pitch pitcher and RP unless he improves a ton, Brett Jackson strikes out over 30% of the time in AAA. Players who strike that much aren’t special (See Tyler Colvin). The Cubs system is so bad mediocre prospects look like they have a ton of value.

jjs91
3 years 10 months ago

K rate for jackson is 29.8, the k rate for middlebrooks is 30, is middlebrooks special? 

jwredsox
3 years 10 months ago

He isn’t special… Don’t assume that I think Middlebrooks is awesome cause I’m a sox fan. If I was like that I’d be no better than godzillacub.

mlbfanwi
3 years 10 months ago

Point is the Red Sox system isnt so deep that McNutt would be the 25 best prospect in the Sox system.  That’s being “misinformed”

slider32
3 years 10 months ago

Gammons should retire, he is no more than a puppet at this point!

Roy Munson
3 years 10 months ago

Now now, to be fair Gammon’s just doesn’t want his boy friend to move to Chicago….

CircusFresh
3 years 10 months ago

and filthy rich.

3 years 10 months ago

Let it be written; let it be done.

gunsnascar
3 years 10 months ago

God I hope that this saga is over today and be announced on Friday.
I don’t want John Henry to have to pay for all those long distance calls from Boston to San Diego for the Chicago Cubs to have a new GM.

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

Long distance calls? Wait, hold on. When did we, as a nation, start paying for long distance again? I seriously thought they did away with that like a decade ago.

gunsnascar
3 years 10 months ago

I seriously thought they did away with that like a decade ago.

From a office phone?

You are out there dude.

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

Especially from an office phone. Most offices were operating off of nationwide plans like fifteen years ago.

Lunchbox45
3 years 10 months ago

its better to skype anyways, whats the point of asking for a teams ace if you can’t see their faces when you do 

CircusFresh
3 years 10 months ago

Red Sox dont have Skype?

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

They would, but they’re really, really tight financially right now.

BoSoxSam
3 years 10 months ago

They’ve got to save in case they get stuck with Theo and the massive 6.5m sum they’d have to pay out.

Drew Tweedie
3 years 10 months ago

Future headline: Padres wanted Castro for Hoyer

Lets just keep this ball rollin’!

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

I’m at the point where I could feasibly see this being the entire offseason for the Cubs.

Theo Epstein Rumors, Thursday, December 8:

*Talks are progressing, albeit slowly. While compensation has allegedly been agreed upon, there’s still the matter of what office supplies Epstein will be allowed to bring along.

Theo Epstein Rumors, Monday, December 19:

*The Red Sox and Cubs have finally come to an arrangement on compensation and an announcement is imminent.

Jed Hoyer Rumors, Tuesday, December 20:

*New Cubs GM Theo Epstein has made it clear that he is pursuing current Padres GM Jed Hoyer. Padres ownership is indicating that, as compensation for Hoyer, they are looking to acquire “whatever’s left.”

Drew Tweedie
3 years 10 months ago

Jed Hoyer Rumors, Friday, December 23rd:

*Friars’ owner Jeff Moorad has not budged from his initial request of Hoyer for outfield prospect Brett Jackson, and talks have essentially reached a standstill. Both teams seem to be far away from an actual deal.
*Hoyer himself has openly criticized Moorad’s demands, stating, “This is the gonna be the worst Christmas ever.”
*In an interview with Bill Center of the San Diego Union Tribune, CEO Tom Garfinkel is excited that the Padres are actually being talked about this off-season.

3 years 10 months ago

I can believe
how the red sox feel apart this year. Here is the thing: the cubs have leverage
because if the sox take him back, he wouldn’t want to do anything for them and
the fans are probably the only ones who still have some respect for him since
he is from the Boston area. The only way the announcement can happen is for the
cubs to ask commissioner and he has to say it is okay, if he doesn’t it will
not be announced until after the World Series. I can believe how the red
sox feel apart this year. Here is the thing: the cubs have leverage because if
the sox take him back, he wouldn’t want to do anything for them and the fans
are probably the only ones who still have some respect for him since he is from
the Boston area. The only way the announcement can happen is for the cubs to
ask commissioner and he has to say it is okay, if he doesn’t it will not be
announced until after the World Series.

gunsnascar
3 years 10 months ago

There’s a echo in your post.

CircusFresh
3 years 10 months ago

and the Cubs if they walk will have to go to San Diego knowing they just blew all their leverage on Theo.  So who has the leverage again?  The team who has a GM ready to go or the team who has no GM and FA starts in less than a month?

Hmm…?

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

“So who has the leverage again?”

Bud Selig. If some of the crap going on in these threads is any indication, he’s about fifteen minutes away from stepping in and making the Cubs give the Sox Mike Trout just to get this resolved in time for Tim McCarver’s first idiotic remark of the World Series.

Jntg4
3 years 10 months ago

Trading a player that isn’t even from your team as compensation, now that’s a good deal! XD

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

Selig is just that powerful. If the Angels raise any objections, he’s making them trade Weaver for Brett Favre, whether he likes it or not. Little known fact, that’s actually the last deal Tony Reagins proposed before being shown the door.

Should retirement object to giving up Favre, Selig will force it to give back Pedro Martinez and before you know it the World Series is ruined.

PKJ
3 years 10 months ago

I don’t understand why one year of a General Manager is supposed to be worth a top prospect. This whole situation is surreal.

Drew Tweedie
3 years 10 months ago

Because it’s not just one year of a general manager. It’s also exclusive negotiating rights at this point instead of bidding for his services on the open market. That value of that is, of course, also debatable.

BoSoxSam
3 years 10 months ago

I think you’re imagining things: Trey McNutt is not a top prospect. Just because he’s one of the Cub’s better prospects means nothing in a farm as barren as theirs.

Wash_Williams
3 years 10 months ago

He was #48 in BA’s list prior to the season so it’s not like he hasn’t been positively compared to prospects from other organizations.  Don’t pay attention to Gammons.  He’s an idiot.  The Cubs system isn’t great, but it’s not bottom three and McNutt would not merely be Boston’s #25 prospect.

That said, I think McNutt’s stock has slipped some since the start of last season.  Perhaps it is just semantics.  While I still consider McNutt a “top prospect” he’s not in that upper echelon of the “elite” prospects.  I would let the Red Sox have McNutt if it got the deal done. 

Jntg4
3 years 10 months ago

OK Peter Gammons.

BoSoxSam
3 years 10 months ago

No, really. 

Jntg4
3 years 10 months ago

So after entering the year at a respectable 16th, and then having a good draft, they’re so void of talent?  Hmmm… guess that half the league is screwed, eh?

notsureifsrs
3 years 10 months ago

you are using baseball america’s ranking, which is quite out of synch with the rest of the scouting world. the average ranking of the cubs farm system after the garza trade was 21st.

and the cubs didn’t really have a good draft. baez is a nice prospect, but overall the cubs took 3 high school position players and a college reliever in the early rounds. many teams did better and had better developmental years in 2011

gammons is wrong about their system and about mcnutt, but the cubs farm system is pretty clearly in the bottom 10

3 years 10 months ago

area

JacksTigers
3 years 10 months ago

O…K….

Deadguy265
3 years 10 months ago

Is there any chance this falls through and Theo remains with the Sox?

swankwank
3 years 10 months ago

Always a chance but it is unlikely.

3 years 10 months ago

If that were to happen, I’d love to see a scenario where John Henry offered Theo an extension.  Just to be a schmuck.

MaineSox
3 years 10 months ago

It’d be even funnier if he took it.

notsureifsrs
3 years 10 months ago

lucchino so annoyed by cubs negotiations and so committed to winning the argument that he makes theo co-CEO out of spite

yesplease

jb226
3 years 10 months ago

Less of a chance that Theo remains with the Sox (in anything but name only) than the deal falling through, but both are pretty slim chances.

CircusFresh
3 years 10 months ago

Coming back as GM?  No way.  Coming back and then being given a title and shipped off to Siberia to collect his 7 million?  Very likely

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

Fine, do that. Theo’ll just spend his time advising the Siberia Socialists in an off the books capacity.

Slopeboy
3 years 10 months ago

I’m so relieved that there’s more news about this Epstein/Red Sox/Cubs/compensation affair.
Please, let it not end soon. My wife and I gave up our soap operas for this and will feel absolutely cheated if it ends so soon!

es0terik
3 years 10 months ago

There’s a new Theo Epstein post every day and yet we aren’t actually find out anything new.

Theo Epstein Rumors: Tuesday
Theo Epstein Rumors: Wednesday
Theo Epstein Rumors: Thursday Morning
Theo Epstein Rumors: Thursday Morning.2
Theo Epstein Rumors: Brunch Special
Theo Epstein Rumors: Thursday Afternoon

3 years 10 months ago

What’s MLBTR supposed to do, ignore the story as it develops, albeit with small updates?  They’re doing what they’re supposed to.  This is a huge story that’s rarely been heard of.

notsureifsrs
3 years 10 months ago

i would enjoy a disclaimer at the bottom:

*No, we don’t care either. Just doing our jobs.*

Lunchbox45
3 years 10 months ago

Ive added that to my work email signature.

3 years 10 months ago

I say we give them Zambrano and pay part of his salary for compensation just to get rid of him…

StanleyHudson
3 years 10 months ago

Wow! Never heard that before!

3 years 10 months ago

Get back to your crosswords, Stanley.  Be nice to the people.

StanleyHudson
3 years 10 months ago

I’m only happy on pretzel day.

BlueCatuli
3 years 10 months ago

See what should really happen is the Cubs should just get a list of all the prospects the Sox find intriguing, take that list and pick out three guys, put those three guys names on a piece of paper, mail it back to Boston with a note that says, “Shove it up your butt!”

Given your screen name I hope you find that amusing. 

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

Thanks, but no thanks.

3 years 10 months ago

As long as you guys ake Lackey!

ubercubsfan
3 years 10 months ago

I actually wonder if it would be best for the Cubs to send Big Z + Cash difference for Lackey’s 2012 salary.  I expect he could bounce back to form in the NL like many pitchers do.  Sox could just cut Z if they don’t want him and save over 30MM over the next few years.  The Cubs are going to need a pitcher regardless after Rickett’s statement about pitching his last pitch for Chicago. At worst, he would be a #5 starter. After Garza/Dempster/Wells it’s really iffy on the Cubs #4/5 pitchers.

slider32
3 years 10 months ago

What about the collusion in baseball, Theo and Hoyer and the Sox get Gonzalez, Alderson worked for Selig and the Brewers get K- Rod, and the Astros are in the 2005 world series, Wade goes to the Astros and know they are a feeder system for the Phils.

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

You mean that collusion that three Yankees fans have been imaging all day for some weird reason?

Did you, MikhelB and Century get together for your own Beerandchickengate today or something?

gunsnascar
3 years 10 months ago

You are Obsessed with spewing out your BS opinions here. You must because everyone sees your comments on like 30 times outta 400+ yesterday.
What are you going to do when this Theo gate is over? Kick puppies and kitties.

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

You’re just mad you got left out. Don’t worry, I don’t think you’re a drunk, just a simpleton.

BoSoxSam
3 years 10 months ago

-I- think he’s a drunk. Just for the record.

slider32
3 years 10 months ago

Ask George Mitchell!

ErikaKGibson
3 years 10 months ago

MLB is one big frat. Let’s not forget the Pirates were the Cubs “feeder system” for a while and Dave Littlefield, former Pirates GM, ended up on the Cubs payroll under Hendry (still is).

slider32
3 years 10 months ago

That is true, but the Pirates and Cubs weren’t in the playoffs this year.

Justanotherfantoo
3 years 10 months ago

“Talks are going slowly and Boston’s asking price remains high…”

Translation: Lucchino, John Henry, and the Red Sox remain stupid and Chairman Bud continues to allow the Red Sox and his boy, Lucchino, to suck all of the media oxygen out of the air and take the focus off of the World Series.

notsureifsrs
3 years 10 months ago

so true. i know i’ll be refreshing jon heyman’s twitter page instead of watching game 1

BoSoxSam
3 years 10 months ago

Better Translation:

Boston has realized that if the Cubs were just going to walk away from Epstein that they’d have done it a week ago, and that asking for a mid-range prospect like McNutt is really not that crazy. McNutt plus a lower prospect would be about what the Marlins sent for Guillen so there is definitely precedent, and it’s embarrassing that the Cubs won’t even give that much up. The Cubs are trying to sweat out Boston, but little do they realize that Boston has the upper hand right now.

3 years 10 months ago

Boston does not have the upper hand…never did.  They will end up paying a lame duck GM $7.5mil to do nothing and get nothing in return for said lame duck.  They will not get a top 5 prospect and don’t deserve it considering how much $$$ is being exchanged.  Ricketts is a very smart business man and won’t get screwed.  A bigger concern for the Sawx is a manager who can keep kfc and pabst blue ribbon out of the clubhouse and dugout…lol

BoSoxSam
3 years 10 months ago

7.5m for nothing sounds like chump change for Boston, they seriously do not care about the money.

They DO deserve one of the Cubs top 5 prospects in return for Epstein, for two reasons: 1. he’s already accepted a 5 year deal from Chicago so it’s not like this is just a one-year trade, and 2. McNutt, who Boston is targeting, is barely top five in the Cubs system, which is extremely weak, and he is a very flawed player. Trading one flawed prospect for five years of a sensible GM who can turn your team around is not an unreasonable trade at all.

As someone else posted a few days ago, Boston has two major choices right now: let Epstein go for pretty much nothing, or try to get something from the Cubs, knowing they’re risking getting nothing from them if they decide to go in a different direction. The first option -guarantees- they get almost nothing from it, while the second option has the possibility of getting some decent return. It still has the risk of them coming away with nothing, but they were gonna end up with that anyway if they backed down.

CircusFresh
3 years 10 months ago

Umm the Red Sox own the rights to Theo’s contract.  How is that NOT leverage?

I know Cubbies have delusions of grandeur, but if the Red Sox walk, who is your GM again?  And how is that negotiation gonna be, asking SD for Hoyer and knowing you will have to give up B. Jackson, Carpenter and another player just to get to the negotiation table. 

$6101468
3 years 10 months ago

Another day of the Theo watch!!!  Oh…the excitement!  Good thing my wife bought me a portable defibrillator for my birthday.  Right now both sides are like a tourist haggling with a local at a yard sale in Tijuana. Can’t wait to see what the outcome will be.  Damn that WS getting in the way of important stuff.

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

For all the complaints about the World Series getting downplayed because of this, people need to realize that Texas/St. Louis isn’t exactly a marquee matchup from a ratings perspective to begin with. Sure, the real baseball fans and fans of the Rangers/Cardinals will be glued to the Series (Despite it being a ratings non-starter, it’s a pretty intriguing matchup), but if something like Phillies/Yankees was going on, this probably wouldn’t be nearly as talked about.

$6101468
3 years 10 months ago

Did you see those ratings figures for the ALCS and NLCS? A PBS special on the mating habits of the Trenton Pigeon will probably pull in more viewers.

This is a WS for folks like us as the rest of the casual baseball world will give it a big yawn.

BoSoxSam
3 years 10 months ago

I was really hoping for a Brewers-Tigers matchup, which I think would have been much more interesting. With the Cards always being in or near the playoffs and with the Rangers there last year, this matchup feels a bit like a yawn to me.

NYPOTENCE
3 years 10 months ago

Any matchup is interesting if your a baseball fan. When you have Pujols in a series it will always be interesting.

BoSoxSam
3 years 10 months ago

Unless it’s Yankees-Phils. Then it’s boring. 😉

StanleyHudson
3 years 10 months ago

I think the only reason Peter Gammons should stay in the business is for his informal tweets. I mean who could forget this gem?  “@pgammo: Zzzz Z Z P So Pl”

$7562574
3 years 10 months ago

just return him back to boston and let them deal with him. those bloody sox are showing their true colors.

CircusFresh
3 years 10 months ago

Bc the Sox dont give into ulitmatums and threats?  Yeah their true colors come through.  Cubs will have it far worse if this deal does not work out.

Sox lose $7 million, Cubs lose 2012 draft class, FA signings and gain another year of losing to make it what now? 104?

Drew Tweedie
3 years 10 months ago

gunsnascar, that’s an extremely hurtful insult to some people. Not picking on you, because it gets thrown around quite a lot, but please try and avoid it in the future.

gunsnascar
3 years 10 months ago

because you seem reasonable I will change it to something else. no offense to you bud. just Obsessions

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

If I pretend to be offended, will you finally go away feeling fulfilled?

ErikaKGibson
3 years 10 months ago

 There is no upper hand. However, the Red Sox organization leaked this deal to the media in hopes of creating enough excitement among the Cubs fan base to pressure Ricketts. The fact that the Cubs did not give in to the Red Sox outrageous initial demands, and the two are still at the table, proves that the Cubs are better negotiators than you think. The Cubs are not winning anything in 2012. Therefore, there is no real urgency for team officials to give up more than they deem reasonable (even if it means some fans will be unhappy in the short term).
In the worst case scenario, the Cubs rebuilding is pushed back a year while the Red Sox pay Epstein to sit out the entire 2012 season because of stubbornness. Theo walks away refreshed and the Red Sox get zero compensation.
It is in the interest of both clubs to take care of this sooner rather than later but the idea that the Sox have leverage is born out of their propaganda machine…

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

“Theo walks away refreshed and the Red Sox get zero compensation. ”

Considering how weak the Cubs’ system is, if they’re not willing to give up McNutt at the least, that is effectively what happens for the Sox anyway.

I’ve said it many times and I’ll say it again, do not underestimate the negotiating position of someone with absolutely nothing to lose.

ErikaKGibson
3 years 10 months ago

The Cubs have nothing to lose.

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

That’s a rather rude statement to be making about one of the most well regarded GMs in baseball.

ErikaKGibson
3 years 10 months ago

It’s only rude because you assume that waiting a year for him is a loss. He is leaving the Red Sox organization. The Cubs will gain his services either in the short term or the long term.

notsureifsrs
3 years 10 months ago

you said: “The Cubs are not winning anything in 2012. Therefore, there is no real urgency”

by this logic, they should not acquire a good GM until the franchise is turned around and they are prepared to win

sounds like a solid long-term plan to me

ErikaKGibson
3 years 10 months ago

That sounds like a straw man. That was clearly not the point I was making.

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

Not the point you were attempting to make, but the point you made nonetheless. It ends up as a straw man because it’s a piss poor argument. What happens if another team comes in next offseason and offers Epstein a blow-him-away offer? What if after all the drama involved in this and the Cubs basically giving up and deciding getting him now isn’t worth their trouble he decides he’s had enough of baseball altogether (He’s said before he plans on leaving baseball altogether eventually)? Do you guys say “well, we missed out on Epstein, but Cherrington’s off contract next year, we’ll just wait until next year to start our rebuild.”

Seriously, I imagine there was a series of Pirates fans somewhere making this argument circa 1995.

ErikaKGibson
3 years 10 months ago

This is all conjecture. Epstein is leaving the Red Sox. Get over it.

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

Yes, yes he is. But pretending the Cubs have less to lose than the Sox in this situation is absolutely ludicrous.

For that matter, did you seriously just throw the word conjecture at me after saying that if it fell through the Cubs would just go get a different GM who’s currently under contract for even longer and then snag Epstein next offseason?! Really? Impressively hypocritical. You’ve been on this site an hour and you’ve already managed to put your foot deeper in your own month than some of the worst of us.

ErikaKGibson
3 years 10 months ago

When did I mention a different GM? I didn’t. I was talking about keeping the status quo for 2012 if the guy they want is unavailable. Obviously you’re confusing my posts with those of another… I’ve been on this site for years. I just decided to post with my twitter handle because I forgot my original one for the site.

DunkinDonuts
3 years 10 months ago

Speaking of status quo… Long-time Interim General Manager Randy Bush… That has a nice ring to it.  He can sort out the Aramis Ramirez situation using a Magic 8-Ball and can show up at the 2012 Draft with Special Assistant Miss Cleo.

ErikaKGibson
3 years 10 months ago

LOL, your post actually made me laugh so thank you! I didn’t say it was ideal but waiting is an option. Aramis is most likely leaving and he should be a type A free agent so Bush can’t mess that up. Oh yeah, the Cubs still have Wilken on the payroll and he has been directing the draft for the last few years.

DunkinDonuts
3 years 10 months ago

Don’t underestimate the incompetence of Hendry’s protege.  He might forget to offer arbitration.

And if Tim Wilken had done his job properly from 2006-2011, then Ricketts and Lucchino wouldn’t still be in this staring contest.  The Cubs’ Top 10 Prospect List is a “Where Are They Now?” special just waiting to be aired during a rain delay on WGN. If McNutt were a loaf of bread and you offered him to a starving homeless person, the homeless person would politely decline and hold out for a better meal.

Matt Mitchener
3 years 10 months ago

The 2011 free agent class is not as good as 2012 too. An interim GM can make small 1 year deals until 2012.

Kirk Vance
3 years 10 months ago

He ended up being a type B if this site has the accurate ratings, and he has an option, so screwing it up isn’t out of the question.

notsureifsrs
3 years 10 months ago

it’s an extension of the logic you proposed. so naturally that’s not the point you were making, but it’s not a strawman either. do you see why?

there are a lot of bogus assumptions being made about boston’s situation. the biggest one is that epstein is “already gone”. he absolutely isn’t. he is in fact entirely still in boston, physically and contractually. and the only way that will change is if the cubs give boston what they want

the other assumption is that the cubs can just as easily have him after 2012. that too is far from a sure thing

i should just post goldstein’s summary again. he’s a neutral third party and he nailed it:

Make no mistake, the Red Sox have the leverage here simply by holding the most desirable asset in the negotiation. That’s business 101. Adding to the difficulty for the Cubs is that Ricketts has now wasted more than a week with the promise of a new savior of a general manager, yet in reality, he doesn’t have him in the fold.

Theo is a wonderfully talented general manager, but the Red Sox lose little here. Ben Cherington, one of the brightest candidates for the role in all of baseball, is set to become the new general manager with the Red Sox, and the people and processes there are still in place. The Cubs are the team with no general manager and a World Series about to start, during which time they cannot announce a hiring. The Cubs are twisting in the wind here while the Red Sox have already all but moved on. Of course they still want Epstein as their general manager, but they’re also resigned to the fact that it’s just not in the cards, while knowing that the Cubs have put all of their eggs in this particular basket without looking at the bill.

you can be cavalier about one more year of delay if you want, but ricketts certainly cannot be and will not be. the cubs need to begin a bottom-up rebuild ASAP. he knows that, and that’s why he has coveted boston’s front office and theo specifically

ErikaKGibson
3 years 10 months ago

Goldstein has an opinion and there are other writes who disagree. Buster Olney says this on Twitter:

Buster_ESPN Buster Olney The perception that BOS’s leverage in Theo matter increased by holding up Cubs’ business is funny. As if Theo not already making CHC plans.

notsureifsrs
3 years 10 months ago

the difference between the two opinions is that one sensible and supported, and the other is a tweet that barely makes sense. epstein’s plans depend entirely on boston’s permission, which the cubs have to gain

ESPN tweet v. BP analysis. an even match by any measure

ErikaKGibson
3 years 10 months ago

Give me a break with the “analysis.” First, when he wrote that article it had not been a week since negotiations began and the idea that the Cubs franchise would be harmed by being deliberate in its actions is hyperbole. Second, he wasn’t writing the piece objectively; Kevin Goldstein is a Cubs fan who wrote an opinion about the matter. I respect his opinion but I disagree with it as it relates to this situation.

Besides, I would post excerpts from Olney’s article but I refuse to subscribe to ESPN Insider.

Anyway, multiple “sources” claiming things may be completed by tomorrow and announced on Friday. We shall see.

notsureifsrs
3 years 10 months ago

nothing’s changed in the two days since he published those words and nothing you’ve said so far calls the truth of them into question. olney’s tweet (lol) contradicts goldstein’s conclusion, but olney himself wouldn’t even be able to explain the counterargument competently. if you can, you should

notsureifsrs
3 years 10 months ago

deluca of the sun times reports negotiations may stretch into next week. he also adds:

The fact the Epstein deal hasn’t been closed reveals the naivete of the Cubs’ management team, specifically president Crane Kenney. A major-league source said Kenney has bragged since September that he is leading this process, despite claims from Cubs chairman Tom Ricketts that the former Tribune Co. executive wouldn’t be involved.

Whoever is leading the talks for the Cubs committed a major blunder by closing the deal with Epstein before signing off on compensation with the Red Sox. That gave the Red Sox’ brass — knowing the Cubs couldn’t afford to have the deal collapse at this point — huge bargaining power.

crazytalk

MaineSox
3 years 10 months ago

Olney’s a goofball.  “As if Theo not already making CHC plans.”  He can make all the plans he wants, but unless and until the Red Sox release him from his contract he wont actually be running the Cubs, so despite his plans he wont actually be able to do anything.

WrigleyTerror37
3 years 10 months ago

Aww looks like the “smart” people are out tonight. What she said was that The cubs are not going to win it all this year if they have theo. So, the cubs are being smart by holding out in the talks to give up the bare minimum or a player that the Cubs management feels is not in the cubs future plans.

MaineSox
3 years 10 months ago

No, they wont win this year even with Theo, but they wont be in the same situation next year if they do have Theo.  If they don’t get Theo now it delays everything a year; if they plan on competing in say 2013 assuming Theo is there this year, they can push that back to 2014 if they don’t get Theo now, and if they don’t get him now there is always a chance someone else comes along with a better offer and they don’t get him at all.

notsureifsrs
3 years 10 months ago

^check it out fellas, i implied he isn’t smart! boom!

since you think i got it wrong and you definitely did get it wrong, here’s what she actually said, verbatim:

The Cubs are not winning anything in 2012. Therefore, there is no real urgency for team officials to give up more than they deem reasonable. In the worst case scenario, the Cubs rebuilding is pushed back a year while the Red Sox pay Epstein to sit out the entire 2012 season because of stubbornness.

plainly false. the worst case scenario is that the cubs squander another season — not of contention, but of development (you know, that thing for which theo is coveted in the first place) and then don’t get epstein at all.

even if they do, they’ve pushed the turnaround not from 2012 to 2013 but from e.g. 2016 to 2017. ricketts isn’t hiring a GM to put the finishing touches on a contender. the team needs to be rebuilt and he covets the red sox model and the man who helped create it

meanwhile in boston, epstein is paid not to sit out but to — wait for it — be the GM, like he already currently is. if you don’t think his services are valuable, you should probably call tom ricketts right away. tom, like every other baseball executive with a brain, thinks theo’s services are very valuable

cherington too keeps the position he already has, though he’ll enjoy greater influence. but he and the cubs would have to hope that epstein doesn’t patch things up in boston the same way he did in 2005 when he actually did leave and was media-smeared far worse than he has been this go round, only to come back again. they also have to hope another team doesn’t woo him away, since he’ll be free to choose when the time comes

so again, be as cavalier as you like about it. you don’t have to like epstein, or think he’s worth anything in terms of prospects. you have no money on the line and despite all of your super-fan glam, you have no vested interest. but unlike lil ol’ me, tom ricketts is likely much smarter than you. he has a crapload on the line here and almost certainly knows this is a much bigger deal than “meh just wait a year lol”

Notin J. Notin
3 years 10 months ago

Other than failing to deliver to their fanbase the promised CurseBreaker GM.  Maybe the few on this message board feel winning this trade is more important than getting a good GM.  If you really doubt there is a Theo-Mania in Chicago, please check the back page of today’s Sun Times….

ErikaKGibson
3 years 10 months ago

People like news. The Suntimes wants to sell papers. They’d put a picture of a baby seal on the back page if they thought it would increase sales.  This protracted negotiation has been great for the media because it’s added interest in cities completely out of the playoffs/WS (Chicago, Boston, San Diego).

This goes back to my first post in this thread; I firmly believe the Red Sox leaked this deal to add pressure to the Cubs by getting their fans excited with all this savior talk. Meanwhile, it’s obvious that the Cubs have just recently started leaking their own stories to paint the Red Sox as unreasonable (asking for Garza).

This thing will be settled in the next few days.