5:12pm: A deal sending Clippard to the Mets is getting “closer,” Heyman tweets.
2:05pm: Jon Heyman of CBS Sports writes that the Nationals are still considering a reunion with Clippard.
12:25pm: Ben Zobrist is not involved in these talks, tweets Yahoo’s Jeff Passan, who does hear that the sides are making progress on a deal. Andy Martino of the New York Daily News tweets that the Mets have expressed a willingness to send Rafael Montero to Oakland in Zobrist talks, so the two sides have already exchanged names in previous talks. That’s not to say Montero is in play here, just that they’ve talked names in the past, which could be beneficial to these talks.
12:13pm: The Mets are making progress on a trade to acquire Tyler Clippard from the Athletics, according to Ken Rosenthal and Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports (Twitter link). Other teams are still in play, according to the FOX Sports duo, and a deal could come soon. Last night, Susan Slusser of the San Francisco Chronicle reported that a Clippard trade could come as soon as today.
The A’s picked up Clippard in an offseason trade with the Nationals, sending Yunel Escobar to Washington in a one-for-one swap. Clippard hasn’t been as effective with Oakland as he has in previous seasons, though. While his 2.79 ERA is solid on the surface, but his strikeout rate (8.8 K/9), walk rate (4.9 BB/9) and ground-ball rate (20.8 percent) have all gone in the wrong direction this season. He’s benefited from an elevated strand rate and a minuscule .214 BABIP, leading FIP (3.89) to project something far less optimistic in regards to his performance. He’s also posted a career-low homer-to-flyball ratio, causing xFIP to project a more pessimistic 5.31.
Regardless, Clippard does have strong bottom-line results and an excellent track record. He’s posted a 2.63 ERA with 10.4 K/9 against 3.3 BB/9 in 393 1/3 innings from 2010-14 working as both a setup man and a closer with the Nationals. He’s owed roughly $3.2MM over the remainder of the season and would give the Mets another arm to slot into the bullpen in the event that they reach the postseason, where Jenrry Mejia is ineligible to pitch due to an 80-game PED suspension.
I don’t see why they need him. Familia is too talented to be a closer, put him in the 8th inning. Put Mejia in the 9th, Parnell in the 7th. Their problem isn’t a lack of personnel, it is the downright refusal to use the guys they have correctly. They keep putting their best arm in the closer role, and that is not how you win baseball games.
In all seriousness, why wouldn’t they want their best relief pitcher as their closer? I understand using him in the 8th if a team has their top of the order or heart of the order coming up, but most of the time, I would suspect you want to leave the games in the hands of your best pitcher, like Chapman or Kimbrel?
Closers usually pitch fewer innings then 7th and 8th inning guys. You generally want to have your best relievers pitch the most innings. Look at Dellin Betances. Last year he threw 100 high leverage innings as the Yankees set up man, That’s way more valuable than if he threw 60 innings as the closer.
Your best bullpen arm cannot be your closer, ever.
Your best bullpen arm always has to be the 8th inning man.
Why? Options.
In the 7th inning you look at the opposing lineup and draw out who will bat in each inning. You should try to assume 4 batters per inning, since that is roughly average. You identify the 1,2,3 bats that are your biggest threat and which inning they are most likely to bat in. You set up your specialists to face those batters.
You have your best arm primed to pitch the 8th inning. If the big bats are going to bat in the 8th (which is average, they usually do bat in the 8th), then you put in your best arm to face them in the 8th.
If those big bats aren’t batting in the 8th, or maybe one of them is batting leadoff or something, then you use your specialists in the 8th inning and save your best arm for the 9th.
When your best arm is the 8th inning guy, you have options to be flexible and use your arms where they are most effective. It **dramatically** increases odds of winning each game.
Mariano Rivera = never the best arm in the Yankees pen, ever.
You heard it here first.
You definitely have some sort of disease if you think that
Mariano said that so many times himself , Best arms don’t mean best Pitchers.
Your logic is sound and I agree with your overall point, but there’s no pointing in harping on this in the context of said deal. The bottom line is the Mets could use greater bullpen depth and Clippard would fill that need. End of story. I’m sure we’d all like to see such forward thinking bullpen usage like the Rays and Cubs sometimes employ, but that reality is years away, as change in baseball is a slow and gradual process. I can understand your frustration regarding the issue, as I tend to think most decisions managers make are questionable at best, but you can’t criticize a single organization for a league-wide notion.
It is standard to have your best arm batting 8th. All of the good teams do it. Royals are a great example. Yankees are another example. It is the correct course of action to have your best arm in the 8th inning, it is the most valuable spot to have your best arm. You’re more likely to face the best hitters and, if your opponent has bad hitters in the 8th and the good hitters in the 9th, you can hold your guy back an inning and use your lefty/righty specialists in the 8th. There is literally no down side to having your best arm in the 8th inning.
To the people downvoting me, why isn’t Wade Davis the closer for the Royals? He is their best arm. Think on that. 8th inning is more valuable, and people who sit back and think about this for more than a second can figure that out without much effort.
If your guy only pitches the 9th inning, what happens if the 8th inning means more? If your guy pitches the 8th sometimes and 9th sometimes, then he can be used where it is more valuable. That means he CAN pitch the 9th and be a ‘closer’ if the situation calls for it.
OR!!!
He can pitch the 8th, and the 8th is very often more valuable, because the top of the order often bats in the 8th and the top of the order are better hitters than the bottom of the order.
Holland is their best arm though. Davis is having a great season, but Holland has been better for longer, simple as that.
Bottom line is: you want all relievers to be unhittable. That’s what KC has and honestly, its the main reason why they’ve been a great team over the last 12 months.
You should use your best bullpen arm when the game is most on the line (most of the time it’s NOT starting the 9th). That’s why “saves” are overrated. If my best bullpen arm is the closer, do I want to use him in the 7th with guys on 1st & 3rd with 1 out up 1, or starting the 9th up 3??
“Too talented to be a closer…”??? That makes absolutely no sense, at least in the context of today’s game. It’ll be a few years before teams wise up and use their best relief pitchers in spots other than the 9th inning.
And the Mets absolutely need relief pitching help. Mejia is ineligible for the postseason and Parnell’s velocity is still down from where it was pre-surgery. The bullpen numbers have been very solid up to this point, but it’d be foolish to bank on continued success in the second half and possibly into the postseason. Glad to see some forward thinking by Alderson and Co.
So if the in 8th inning you’re facing a lineup of Trout, Harper, Goldschmidt and the 9th inning you’re facing Bartolo Colon, Lester, and Danny Santana, you’d rather have your best bullpen arm pitch the 9th and not the 8th? Explain that.
And yes, this is an exaggeration to make a point. You put your best arm to face the best opponents and your other arms face the weaker bats.
Okay, but why make such a point in this specific thread? It has absolutely no place here, and instead belongs as a thread on some other forum.
Because the only reason they have this ‘need’ is because they aren’t using their roster correctly. It would be like playing Flores at shortstop and saying they just need a second basemen to complete the roster. Go get a righty bat off the bench, that is a real need.
They need him because Clippard is one of the best setup men in the game and the Mets young pitchers are starting to hit their innings limits? Did you not see how far KC got last year with a nails bullpen?
Parnell 7, Clippard 8, Familia 9 is very very good.
Parnell hasn’t been very good so far. 6 k/9, 4 BB/9 is far from “shutdown”.
Clippard has really been quite bad this year. Relievers have good years and bad years, it’s true. But I’ll bet if the Mets get him and end up competing for the division, he’ll be pitching purely mop-up.
Mejia is ineligible for the playoffs. Parnell has been mostly effective, but he’s clearly lost a tick or two on his fastball. Who knows when Blevins is coming back, or how long it will take him to find his feet. The Torreses have been unreliable, and Verrett and Goedell have 50 innings combined at this level.
You need at least one more reliable arm, if not two, if they’re going to have a legit shot at this. Playoff games are won and lost from the 7th to the 9th inning…they can’t blow the season over $4M and a prospect. Too much at stake.
Spot on, though I think Blevins will be a nice addition once he is healthy. They can always bump Montero to the BP, though I’d prefer someone who has done it before like Clippard.
Any idea on cost for Clippard…given his less then stellar stats this yr?
I disagree with much of what you’re saying, except for the fact that they need to use their guys correctly. Carlos and Alex Torres have backwards splits, yet Collins keeps using Alex to face lefties (OPS+ of 140 against him) and Carlos to face righties (110 OPS+). This isn’t a new trend for either of them, either.
Collins is an idiot when it comes to the BP. I wish the Torrii were both gone, but they can’t jettison them right now.
ha, upvoted for ‘Torrii’.
The term you’re looking for is “fireman” – the guy you bring in to get out of a jam. Great concept but currently only used when you have closers by committee.
are the mets in on like everyone?
Yes. If they make the post season, they will be a monster. This is a team set up to absolutely dominate tournament baseball with four starting pitchers and a bullpen arm that make everyone in the league look silly in the box. They just need to make the post season. They need to get to 87 or 88 or whatever it is wins they need to make the show, and then they will roll out talent that is built to win in any tournament.
Well, if a team is in jeopardy of not making the playoffs they are not a threat to dominate. They have a great chance with their rotation but you havebto look at others like LA who also have a great top of the rotation in Kershaw/Grienke plus whoever they add. Its teams like that who dominate regular season and are stacked that can dominate. Sorry but the Mets are not there without the bats.
I’m sorry, what? You realize the post season is a tournament and the regular season isn’t a tournament, right? And tournaments require a different team construction to win.
Playoff baseball is about pitching, and the Mets have that. deGrom, Harvey, and Syn have all proven they can shutdown a potent lineup and go deep into games. If they roll with those guys and move Matz to the pen, that is 7IP, then Matz, then Familia. If Travis can contribute, they are a scary team to run into in the playoffs. The Royals couldn’t hit much and still went far, and I think the Mets have the same type of team…though a bit better SP and a bit worse BP.
Madison Bumgarner begs to differ.
Bumgarner almost single-handedly won that series for SF….in most years that doesn’t happen.
But they pick up two Bats, One is washed up no Range 2nd Baseball , who will get exposed real soon of what he really is, The Second one is an Fancy juicer who has found a Great Medical Doctor in DR to put in the Fix.
Sorry? Was that English?
If nothing else, it makes it look to the fans that they’re at least trying. Perception means a lot in NY, both with the fans and the media.
If it’s anybody who’s name I’ve even heard in passing, I’m happy with the return.
He has a career .500 OPS. That should help the offense a bit.
Fulmer, Taylor, Leathersich or Molina is a nice pickup for the A’s….but then again Beane loves the prospects that aren’t on lists but once he gets them everyone says “Oh yeah! Totally overlooked him!”
Molina is very good and very valued by the Mets and scouts. No way they trade him for Clipp. As an A’s fan, I;d love that though. Fulmer would be a nice pickup too.
Yeah, with Beane you just know its going to be a total no-name prospect who actually has really solid numbers. Or perhaps a guy who was on no lists but is breaking out right now, like Nottingham was/is.
Yeah, Nottingham is certainly not a no name now, but he was before the season. Hell of a break out year though, almost made a lot of midseason top 100 lists, according to Keith Law and Kiley McDaniel.
Yeah, been reading now that Nottingham will absolutely be on everyones top 100 prospect list come next spring. Sounds to me like something…being….undervalued? The specifics of Moneyball are ever-changing, Beane always is looking at what no one else is.
Molina is now a known quantity, so I agree that he is not likely to get moved. I wonder if Ynoa is an option, as he has shown some nice gains but he has no place to go on the roster right now.
If the Mets could get Kelly Johnson and Uribe for Whalen and Gant, there’s virtually zero chance they would give up their best pitching prospect for a reliever having a down year.
Fulmer would probably be a better reliever right now than Clippard, or at least close to it very soon. He profiles as a power pitcher, sitting 93-95 and hitting 97+ with good size and average breaking stuff. With this pitcher development pipeline, the Mets would be best served to keep him. Leathersich and Molina are both currently out due to TJ (I don’t think Leather has gotten it yet but will). With Taylor, are you talking about Logan Taylor (high-A rhp) or Blake Taylor (low-A lhp)?
I believe Blake Taylor is who they got from PIT in the Ike Davis deal….who would be a win if he does *anything* ever.
Love that the Mets are pursuing relief pitching, but not totally in love with Clippard being that guy. Great career numbers, but his control has really slipped this season, and the metrics haven’t been too fond of his performance this season. At least his velocity has rebounded a bit since the start of the season, and the K’s have been there since June so there’s some hope he can regain his previous form. And one would think his cost would be pretty low given the aforementioned and him being a rental.
If you’re going to have to overpay- Nimmo for Zobrist and Clippard. As a Mets fan, I don’t like this, but I am guessing Oakland would do this in a second. Gotta resign Zobrist at least through 2017 though.
The Mets did not want to pay the $2-$3 million left for Zobrist this season. If they didn’t want to pay him the very little salary he’s owed for the rest of this year, how do you expect them to sign him through 2017?
To be fair, Alderson has essentially said they have the resources to take on significant money as part of any deal. Whether you, I, or anyone else believes him is another issue, but it at least leaves open the possible options the team can pursue in theory.
FWIW I don’t believe they do, but I hope I’m wrong.
I think this was proven as speculation. For backup of this, note that the Mets took on $2.5MM for Uribe/Johnson.
Didn’t the Mets brass say explicitly they planned to “overpay” for Zobrist? Other teams could offer a lot more than Nimmo, who’s a little on the overrated side for my liking. Nimmo+2 more is what keeps Beane on the line. Zobrist is a huge chip this week.
Eh I disagree. Nimmo was basically created to play in Oakland. He had (numbers aren’t exact, off the top of my head) 95 walks last year with 75 strikeouts. Awfully tough to find a player like that nowadays. 6 years of Nimmo for 3 months of Zobrist and Clippard seems like a big overpay for the Mets
Sorry, had to downvote you because Nimmo had 86 walks with 105 strikeouts last year – he didnt even have more walks than strikeouts.
He has no power whatsoever and has 2 HR in 71 games this year. He’s an ok return for Clippard, but he looks more on the “failing propspect” side than someone on the up and up, like Nottingham.
I agree completely. At the same age, Kirk Nieuwenhuis, a consensus 4th or 5th outfielder, was outhitting Nimmo significantly at the same level. Nieuwenhuis is also a better defender and base runner.
I like Zobrist, but our need for him isn’t as great with the Uribe/Johnson deal. At this point our biggest concern is bringing in OF help, and although he can fill in there, it’s not like he’d be our only available option. No need to overpay for him necessarily when his main selling point (versatility) isn’t what it was prior to the deal.
I can see Brad Wieck being a player The A’s ask for in a deal…Akeel Morris??
Wieck was sent to the Padres as the PTBNL in the Torres deal, unfortunately.
Mets should go for O’Day
Hey Mets, The reds will trade you Todd Frazier, Leake, Bruce, and Chapman, for Wheeler, Syndrrgard, Flores and 2 top hitting prospects. 3 of the 4 I’m sending you have multiple year control and cheap.
Why would that make sense for the Mets?
Don’t you mean the SD Padres?
No, please Rizzo, don’t bring Clippard back. The guy has regressed significantly in high-leverage situations over the past two years. Obtaining Escobar for him proved to be a steal in itself. There are other options available.
Clippard for Michael Taylor straight up, but I highly doubt the Nationals would make that trade.
Yeah, they for sure wouldn’t do that.
I am confused. Jenrry Mejia served his suspension and is back with the Mets. Is he not allowed on the playoff team, even though the suspension is over?
That’s correct. When MLB increased the penalties for first-time PED offenders from 50 to 80 games, they also added that players will be ineligible for the playoffs the year that they’re suspended.
With Rendon back and Espinosa playing decently, it would be interesting if the Nats trade Yunel Escobar back to Oakland for Clippard.
I don’t think that would happen after him publicly stating he didn’t want to play in Oakland.
He doesn’t want to play in Oakland, thats why we traded him right away in the first place. I mean I wish we could have just kept him and not traded him for Clippard in the first place because look who we are left with at short now.
LOL During the winter hot stove, before the Escobar trade, Semien looked like he would be an improvement over Desmond. Yep, I called it – Semien 28E over Desmond 21E.
I like Clippard but I rather have the Mets go after a more ”shutdown” reliever.
Clippard’s stats concern me, though I wonder if a change in scenery would help? I like a prior commenter’s idea to consider an internal option like Fulmer. I think realistically Montero/Matz/Blevins can take over for the Torrii and that is already an improvement. Verrett is around too, but he has had limited innings (and I guess Blevins does too, though they were effective innings).
Rizzo & Beane have been a lot of trade partners in the past couple seasons (Norris and Cole, 3 team deal with Gio & Morse, Yuni for Clipp). Hopefully Clipp comes back to DC.
Deal is done
Yep. Heyman confirmed it.
edit: Casey Misener going to the As. Good pickup for the Mets.
Casey Meisner for Clippard
Montero is to much for a Rental Player if Redick or Zobrist also in deal then maybe along with another top Prospect.