The Mets and Indians made perhaps the biggest trade of the offseason earlier this week. Star shortstop Francisco Lindor and right-hander Carlos Carrasco are now Mets. They represent the biggest pair of additions for a New York club that has been expected all offseason to pursue star-level talent.
Lindor, of course, was seen as a near-lock to be moved all winter. The Indians seemingly never came close to working out an extension with the four-time All-Star. With Lindor one season removed from hitting free agency, it looked apparent Cleveland would trade him away. Carrasco was less obviously going to be moved this winter, but it wasn’t a huge surprise the Indians parted with him, either. Carrasco’s two-year, $27MM deal (with a 2023 option) marked the biggest guaranteed contract on Cleveland’s books. Lindor’s projected arbitration range ($17.5MM — $21.5MM) would’ve easily been the Indians’ largest 2021 expense.
Each of Lindor and Carrasco remains a bargain at those rates relative to their on-field production. But Cleveland’s ownership has signaled a desire to cut payroll this winter; it wasn’t hard to foresee that coming via jettisoning the team’s highest-paid players. Cleveland’s estimated $40MM payroll, per Roster Resource, is now less than half the team’s 2020 season-opening outlay (prior to prorating).
While finances were an obvious element of the trade, it wasn’t a mere salary dump. The Indians brought in four young players, two of whom are immediate big leaguers. Amed Rosario is a former elite prospect who has been up and down over his first three-plus MLB seasons. Andrés Giménez was a highly-regarded farmhand himself and had a decent if unspectacular rookie year. The pair of prospects, right-hander Josh Wolf and Isaiah Greene, are recent high school draftees. They rank 25th and 28th, respectively, in the Indians’ farm system at FanGraphs.
Turning things over to the readership, how did each team fare in this week’s blockbuster?
(poll links for app users)
It’s a win win
I agree
Hello MetsFan22 im no hater rn but how mad would you be if the Mets miss the playoffs with everyone healthy.
If everyone is healthy they won’t miss it.
Thats not the question lol. How mad dont avoid it
I wouldn’t be mad. Disappointed sure. Surprised too. As long as we finish ahead of the Marlins I’ll be fine.
There’s probably only 5 teams in MLB that wouldn’t make the playoffs if they magically had everyone stay healthy the whole year. It would be such a huge advantage over the rest of the league.
@Luc 2
I don’t know about whether he’ll be mad or not. Probably just disappointed as he said as he’s probably getting used to that feeling as a Mets fan. However, no matter how @MetsFan22 feels, it will lead him to looking for any excuse as to why things didn’t work out like he has stated.
We can expect anything from the following:
“Syndergaard didn’t start the season right away.”
“They didn’t perform to their potential.”
“The manager sucked and needs to be fired.”
“The injuries to the 26th man on their roster affected their team”
“The season was 161 or less games so it wasn’t a real season.”
“One blade of grass in section 245767-6757 of the CitiField lawn was bouncing .0000005 MPH of wind all season.”
“A .01 CM paint-chip in the RF fence caused unfair bounces in the infield that hurt the Mets.”
“A new bakery in Downtown Albany metaphysically caused traffic in Queens to slow down in a way that caused the stadium hotdog vendors to not receive delivery of buns for 32.54687 seconds.”
“On blah blah blah date, a troll’s response to Steve Cohen’s Twitter account caused a glitch in all social media which caused a flair on the other side of the universe, which disrupted our parallel universe which caused anomalies in the Mets season.”
And many many many more excuses.
Stay tuned.
Who is this troll ??
I don’t, the Indians have gone from an 85 win team to a 75 win team for what? Rosario is a bad defender and a worthless hitter. Guys like him who swing freely flame out all the time b/c BABIP drives their value. Also Cleveland basically included Corrasco to be cheap and got nothing for him.
I’m sure everyone would have been willing to give up recent second round picks and their SS for Lindor
@kylegocougs Rosario is a ok defender at SS, but I think the plan is Gimenez at SS and Rosario at 2B for the Indians. Josh Wolf is a underrated prospect, but I be worried now that the Mets have him since they have a tendency to ruin pitchers before they can reach any potential. Only one they haven’t ruined was deGrom but then again he isn’t a prototypical power pitcher and wasn’t that regarded coming up through the Mets system.
To be fair, they did fully rehab Wheeler. Syndergaard is ruining himself with the weightlifting and triple digit mentality. Matz just isn’t able to hit the catcher’s glove. He is deeply in his own head and would probably benefit more from a team psychiatrist than coach.
To be honest, I have not been a fan of the Mets rotating pitching coaches. I can only imagine that it must be difficult for a player to accept, digest and apply three different philosophies in three years.
Lugo has been good. I have no idea what happened to Diaz other than the fact that he is a two pitch, pitcher – slider away, fastball in. Porcello and Wacha were exactly as expected. Familia and Robles are pretty similar. Both have a lot movement but little control.
Huh? Didn’t they get Wheeler as A ball prospect and bring him up? What about Syndergaard? Harvey? Matz? Familia? Lugo? Fulmer on the Tigers? Cessa? Gant? Bowman? All these guys became MLB pitchers lately through the Mets system and injury has hurt them, not their production.
Perfectly said. The amount of pitching they have produced has been above avg.
I thought Carrasco looked like a good candidate to come here. Solid 2/3 type pitcher here (3/4 everywhere else) on a contract that isn’t bad at all.
Wrong!! Bc rhey know they have no chance of outbidding the Mets for Lindor
Gimenez will play short and hit 270 for the next 12-15 years. I’m sad to see him get away.
Win win
Indians are idiots and got fleeced
Nah. Indians pieces weren’t bad. Rosario was the worst piece and he was top 5 in hits the last real season.
MetsFan22 Do you mean in 2019?
He means the last “FULL SEASON”. Everyone knows that 2020 was a “REAL” season. Only “look at me, I’m so stuck in my way” people keep harping on the “it’s not a real season. It was an abbreviated season. Real players played in real games that counted in real standings. These real standings led to a real playoff games which led to a real World Series and a real Champion. The aforementioned real standings also led to a real draft order for next season. This real season also had many, many other real circumstances, situations & consequences.
How many other “real seasons” in MLB history had teams with LOSING RECORDS make the postseason? How many other “real seasons” began in late July? How many other “real seasons” had regular season schedules with each team playing only regional opponents? How many “real seasons” had many players sitting out because of a deadly virus? How many “real seasons” had scheduled 7-inning games? Last year was anything but a “real season”, it was something thrown together to make money and let people watch on TV.
Yes it was a real 60 game season.
So, does this mean that the Dodgers still haven’t won a “real” World Series Title since Tommy Lasorda was their manager? Speaking of the Dodgers, did they “really” win the ’81 World Series? I mean there was a partial season, a strike, then another partial season. Some teams played more than others. How about ’95? That’s the year that started late due to the ’94 strike. Did the Braves “really” win the ’95 World Series against the Indians? I mean that was a full season, or was it? If your narrative is different does it change history?
And did that seem to impact the end result? No.
If my team had won the 2020 WS I would be embarrassed when they hoist the flag this Spring. 95 is not a valid comparison, they played 144 games, not a paltry 60.
Are you stupid or just dumb?
History books won’t show it when they list champions year by year, because MLB wanted fans to buy into the 2020 season, but in everyone’s mind there’s asterisks all over last season. It was an absolute joke, integrity was pushed aside for the almighty dollar.
MLB was just like the rest of mankind in 2020. It dealt with the hand that was dealt! Pretty much everything in 2020 was abnormal. Whether you like it or not, it counted and will be counted as long as there’s record books.
Nobody said it didn’t “count”. It had to “count” for MLB to sell it. Otherwise it would have been just one long exhibition season with no incentive to win. “Counting” it doesn’t make it real. At least the NCAA had enough integrity to just cancel March Madness.
I’d still take that championship as a fan though bc banners are forever.
I think that’s a personal choice that every fan needs to make. Plenty of Astros fans stand by their 2017 championship, and it’s in the record books, but again most people look at it with an asterisk in their mind.
Not in my mind. I actually think there was more hardship in the 2020 season than many of the previous ones. Also the two best teams on paper met in the WS. That rarely happens. 2020 was real to me.
Someone had to win it. It was either LA or 29 other teams. Time to move on and accept the championship.
My real question about the 2020 season is why is it that fans of overrated last place teams say 2020 isn’t a real season while other fans have no problems with it?
Well stated, Fever Pitch Guy. I didn’t wait all my life to see my team finally get a ring in a mickey-mouse season like this one.
Fleeced worse than cubs
Tatsumaki: Let me get this straight. 1 yr of Lindor (who wasn’t re-signing since he already turned down $200,000,000.00) & 2 yrs + an option for Carrasco is BETTER than getting 5 yrs of Gimenez a SS who was very good as a rookie in ’20, 3 yrs of Rosario (2B/SS), the Mets 2nd rd draft pick in BOTH the 2019 AND the abbreviated 5 rd 2020 draft. As a MLB fan whose favorite team is not in this fight, I really like the return for the Indians.
Agreed. Indians got the better end of the deal. Now if Lindor does sign an extension before the season or during season then Mets definitely got better end of deal. And I’m a lifelong Mets fan
We had to give up a lot to get Lindor and carrasco. Idk if the Indians got the better end of it. Too early to tell. Does Lindor resign, is he still a stud throughout the contract, does he stay healthy, does gimenez and Rosario perform better than Lindor…a ton of ?s. Great trade for both teams.
The Mets won the deal by getting a top 5 MLB player. They didnt give up any of their top prospects, and sent CLE a position player that would be riding the bench behind said top 5 player. Cleveland didn’t get fleeced by any means, and got decent value for 1 more year of Lindor, but there’s no way they ‘won’ this trade. They got what they could get, and they should be happy with a couple major league ready guys and 2 middle of the road prospects
@busmannyc
“Indians got the better end of this deal”
F. And not the memey “pay respects” kind, but a grade for your take.
No one gets fleeced in trades. Each team has an army of scouts, analysts, personnel evaluators, etc, etc in their orgs. No one gets ‘fleeced’. If the picks do not pan out, it is either bad luck (due to injuries) or poor talent evaluations, but again no teams gets ‘fleeced’ in a trade.
Chris archer for Tyler glasnow, Austin meadows and Shane baz. Explain it…. because archer had like one good half of a year out of his whole career
kc38: That was a terrible trade from the beginning. That trade was made because the upper management was BOTH drunk AND high OR was blackmailed in to the deal.
nrd1138, I don’t understand the hair you’re splitting here. Teams most certainly do get fleeced and “poor talent evaluations” is definitely one way.
You’re confusing “poor talent evaluations” with “not being able to see the future”. This cheese sandwich hardly had any cheese on it.
Im sorry if you apparently do not understand the definition of ‘fleeced’. If a team makes a bad evaluation, then that is on the team. No team gets gets fleeced in a trade. All eyes are open. Bad management is not fleecing, it is bad management or evaluation into the trade/players involved. Fleecing implies fraud, or cheating, neither of which should occur if both teams have the personnel to make trades (and again even if they have poor orgs, then that is on the team org). Now can fans feel ‘fleeced’ by their team in make such a trade? Sure, but to say an org got fleeced is just not correct.
And for another way teams get fleeced in trades, look at the suspension AJ Preller received for his trade of Pomeranz to the Red Sox. Plenty of other teams have gotten away with concealing medical records for players they’ve traded.
Hey now. The A’s made out like bandits in the Josh Donaldson trade with Toronto. Oh wait now??? Nah you’re right
Oh you are so funny! let us validate your emotions! You quoted a movie! How clever! So hilarious! Does that make all the bad stuff with mommy growing up better for you? Everyone thinks you are SO funny! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHA!
Shelby Miller traded to the Diamondbacks for Dansby Swanson seems like a fleecing….
Miller was coming of All Star year. At the time it was not bad example.
At the time of the Miller trade, Braves fans thought that Atlanta fleeced Arizona.
They did.
Miller was coming off a really bad September, so Braves fans were shocked that they got a young GG caliber CF and the first overall pick from the previous draft, plus a highly rated pitching prospect. Ender did really well for them for a couple of years and won some GG’s, and Dansby is a solid all-around SS. Not a superstar, but definitely a quality major-leaguer.
I disagree. Toronto trading Syndergaard and D’arnaud for RA Dickey and Josh Thole was a fleece of the highest degree. I remember hearing that news like it was yesterday. I thought I was reading it wrong. At least this trade I nodded my head and said “ok, I can live with that package.” I thought they Indians did well with the return under the circumstances, but there is definately such a thing as getting fleeced.
Mets’ Cano deal was a fleecing. Kelenic will be a top 3 rookie of the year candidate whenever he gets moved up.
The deal for the Indians could be a win/win I’d the kids they got develop. Nice upside in both. Gimenez is a slick glove w TBD bat. Rosario….roll of the dice. He could be slightly below/above avg at SS. His def
is meh, but he has shown spurts of good hitting. He gets himself in trouble chasing though. Bad habit of his.
Lol. You know nothing about Kelenic !!
He is a suspect at this point!
You severely overvalue 1 season of Lindor. This is a perfectly even trade.
It’s not just 1 year of Lindor, though. It’s either 7-10 years of Lindor or enough salary relief for the Mets for them to be big players in what’s going to be the best FA SS class in YEARS. Either way you want to look at it, the Mets positioned themselves to be winners whether Lindor signs an extension or not.
Whats better this package or a comp pick in the 2022 draft? I’ll go with this package.
Indians got the best they could. Trade market was, is, and will be bad for awhile.
Look on the bright side. The Indians can now sign Bauer, Springer, Realmuto, Ozuna, LeMahieu, Odorizzi, and Hendricks without going over the luxury cap threshold.
If Tribe could have done better they would have
Lindor only had one more year. Indians did not get fleeced.
They gave up one of the top 10 superstars in the game for a couple utility guys and lower level pitchers who will probably become bullpen arms if they make the big leagues at all. Lindor will probably sign a 10 year extension. Teams have gotten better returns for relievers.
brewcrewjazz: Try to look at RELEVANT info on the players involved before you spout off such nonsense. Otherwise you look absolutely positively foolish. A. Gimenez played above average shortstop and had pretty decent offensive production as a 21 yr old. That leads most people to believe that he’s going to be MORE than a “utility guy”. He’s also under contract for 6 years. The 2 pitchers are both very projectable. They’re not ranked very high, at least at this point for 2 main reasons. Both were drafted out of high school in the 2nd rd in the ’19 & ’20 drafts respectively. There was NO milb season so neither guy got to showcase their ability. Even if there was,both have a long way to go. As I mentioned in a previous post, I’m not a fan of either team involved but I like the return that the Indians rcvd.
Reminds me of when the Giants caught flack for trading superstar Matt Williams to the Indians for a couple mediocre utility infielders and a middle reliever. Which won them the division the coming year.
Easy c for Indians could be lower if Rosario and gimenez don’t pan out. Included a top 15 player in all of baseball and a legit cost controlled #2 for 2 mediocre position players and 2 players barely in top 10 of mets thin farm. Easy win for mets.
So if Kelenic doesn’t pan out the Mets do better in the cano trade? I don’t think it works like that.
I agree that it doesn’t work like that. I always cringe when people make a comment like that. Evaluating a trade with the benefit of hindsight is pretty useless.
Can tell you that prospects are worthless until they are in majors. You go on projection, and of the players they received none have high upside just fringe mlb regulars. We are all entitled to our opinions it’s called free speech, open to have dialogue not a criticism don’t like it don’t comment quiet simple.
“open to have dialogue”
“don’t like it don’t comment”
which is it?
Open to dialogue not baseless attacks because you don’t agree with my opinions. Pretty simple actually
Prospects get traded like currency all the time. They most certainly are not worthless before they see the majors.
Gimenez is not mediocre. At 21 he was plus offensively and defensively at a premium position.
Mediocre hitter at best, no power. Good field no-hit middle infielders are a dime a dozen. He had all the makings of a typical over-hyped Mets prospect.
But he’s not a no hit SS. He projects a above average bat and in limited chances showed that. Plus he’s going into his 22 year old season. There’s still plenty of projection left for him.
1 season of an elite player isnt worth what you think it is.
@tatsu. You are proving right NOW that nobody is stopping you from expressing your opinion so cool it with the freedom of speech victimisation.
Tatsumaki: God is NOT forbidding you from making asinine comments. None of us are able to stop (keep) anyone else from voicing their opinion, no matter how foolish or uneducated it may (seem to) be. Your ramblings just seem to come out without much thought or real information to back up the yapping.
@tatsu- Persecuted? All you’re doing is demonstrating that you have never experienced actual persecution. “Oh no, someone is expressing an opposing viewpoint! I’m being persecuted.”
We all treat our opinions as facts. That’s because we all think we’re right otherwise there would be no dialogue at all. Obviously, commenters who disagree with you aren’t stopping you from expressing your view point because it just keeps coming.
Just stop the theatrics already. Oh, guess I shouldn’t have said that, right? Because I’m oppressing you and all your extreme sensitivities?
This isn’t Facebook or Twitter. They are liberal big tech companies that don’t allow conservative opinions. This place allows all opinions, even against ridiculously overhyped and overused advanced statistics. If you want to know what real persecution is, you should have been forced to watch all 60 Red Sox games last season.
Prospectnvstr sure but we got guys like you that offer little substance to your words outside of insulting someone with a different opinion. I’m open to constructive criticism or open dialogue not vague attacks on my character because I made a comment you don’t agree with. And sure until the mods delete comments that don’t follow 1 sided guidelines, I have seen many silenced and deleted for speaking out. If you don’t like don’t comment, no one needs attacks on there character, unless of course the attacker is someone as spineless as yourself.
Clearly you don’t understand what the definition of persecution. People get vile on here because there opinions don’t align, it’s pretty toxic. People act superficial and elitist towards those with differing opinions on player values or production. I see it all the time and several posters will attack one person and cast them as “clueless” or “dumb” it’s a form of hostile treatment.
Oh, and next you’ll say Twitter is taking away “first amendment rights”. Please no politics here.
Marty did you hear about the 5 roast beef special at Arbys?
FTR I can’t stand Arby’s roast beef, but their turkey and Greek gyros are fantastic!
They would be around 10 to 15 in most systems. Mets farm is weak but that doesn’t effect their 5 to 15 rankings much.
People don’t seem to understand most farm rankings are based on top 100 prospects not down the line depth. You got 2-3 guys in the top 50 your farm rank is good.
Exactly. Every team has 15 to 20 good prospects. The high ranking teams have multiple elite guys and or depth that gives them 20 to 30 plus good prospects.
Tatsumaki: I mentioned in a different comment about your lack of information before spouting off. Here’s a little info on A. Gimenez who played in 49 of 60 games and had 118 AB’s at 21 yrs old. He was t NYM #1 prospect in both ’18 & ’19, #5 in ’20 and #3 for’21 in the recently released Baseball America top 10. He was also a Top 10 prospect in ’17 Lo A, ’18 Hi A & AA, and in ’19 AA. He more than held his own in the Majors in 2020. Reading is fundamental. Researching before yapping is recommended but definitely not required.
Ahmed Rosario was also a top rated prospect and has done what exactly? #1 in mets farm between when he was signed and before his first game in majors. Is he also in the same category as gimenez or no because it doesn’t support your already weak argument? Gimenez had no pop and averaged .263 last season is that suppose to compete with lindor a life time of .300 with 30 homeruns? Follow your own instructions and read before you comments lolololol
Tatsumaki –
Average and home runs don’t really matter anymore. Modern front offices use more advanced stats to measure offensive production. Now, Gimenez is clearly a worse player than Lindor when comparing their stats, but he is only 21 and could improve. Also, Cleveland did get other prospects in this trade, so they could work out well. Lindor was going to leave Cleveland anyways after this year, so I think that they did well considering that they would have lost him to free agency for nothing.
Also, stop liking your own comments.
It’s pretty funny, but he not wrong. Could be worded differently but people are pretty angry and toxic on this site. When some guy posts something others will savagely call into question someones iq. Maybe stick around long enough and you will see it too
Because it’s possible to like my comments 2/3/4/5/6 times sound logic Dan the padres Stan.
agreed with the majority here. Mets got what they needed to at a cost that shouldn’t hurt. Indians did okay, but got to imagine if they could have gotten better in a better economic climate. (Lindor needing an extention and Cookie costing a solid chunk of cash)
I agree. Indians did ok. But not bad either. Just avg.
No dog in this fight, this trade is pretty much market value. 1 year of Lindor just isn’t worth as much as people think. Gimenez flashed elite tools in limited time. Rosario is still only entering his age 25 season in 2021 and has gradually improved (minus last year, which of course should get *). Couple decent lottery picks, and Carrasco’s money.
its probably an A is it’s just Lindor, but when you throw in Carrasco its not as good.
I think most teams realize now that the team w the one year star rental has very little bargaining power to ask for substantial returns, and even less when they’re knowingly cash strapped… gimenez and Rosario could easily turn into above average players, and wolf and Greene def have upside… too many on here judge value based on name recognition… this was a decent return for Cleveland considering… should’ve traded him last offseason
I agree Indians got fleeced and I’m a giants fan, so I’m neutral.
No one gets fleeced in trades. Each team has an army of scouts, analysts, personnel evaluators, etc, etc in their orgs. No one gets ‘fleeced’. If the picks do not pan out, it is either bad luck (due to injuries) or poor talent evaluations, but again no teams gets ‘fleeced’ in a trade.
I’m sure some front office employees appreciate you defending them for no good reason but you’re wrong.
When referring to this specific trade, I agree. But this year in particular, we’re seeing a lot of salary dumps with questionable returns. That didn’t happen here l, but it has elsewhere. So I don’t agree with the no one ever gets fleeced idea. Some teams are intentionally getting fleeced because they just don’t want to spend money after the pandemic. It’s a really bad look for baseball right now. Again, not talking about this trade.
You’re right. A lot of owners don’t actually care about trade returns at all, they care about the money. It’s only the GM and fans who care and think all trades should be fair, but if the man at the very top doesn’t like it, then we all must bow and the player/money must leave.
Not the game I grew up with, but it’s nice to see some other people are seeing it too.
@nrd1138: “No one gets ‘fleeced’. If the picks do not pan out, it is either bad luck (due to injuries) or poor talent evaluations, but again no teams gets ‘fleeced’ in a trade.”
This seems like a weird and failed attempt at being pedantic. If a trade doesn’t pan out due to injuries, then yes, I agree, you can’t say a team got fleeced.
But if a team poorly evaluates the talent of all the players involved and makes a terrible trade based on those evaluations, then that is the very definition of getting ‘fleeced’ in a trade.
Im sorry if you apparently do not understand the definition of ‘fleeced’. If a team makes a bad evaluation, then that is on the team. No team gets gets fleeced in a trade. All eyes are open. Bad management is not fleecing, it is bad management or evaluation into the trade/players involved. Fleecing implies fraud, or cheating, neither of which should occur if both teams have the personnel to make trades (and again even if they have poor orgs, then that is on the team org). Now can fans feel ‘fleeced’ by their team in make such a trade? Sure, but to say an org got fleeced is just not correct.
Disagreeing with your definition of “fleeced” is not the same thing as not understanding the definition.
I disagree with you. If a team makes a poor talent evaluation and the players they trade for never make an impact, then that team got fleeced. If the players don’t succeed for some outside reason(injuries, etc) then it’s not fair to say a team got fleeced.
To argue that it is impossible for a team to get fleeced is just insane. Plenty of trades in the past few years could be qualified as a team getting fleeced.
Vernon Wells begs to disagree.
To me, Corrasco is a bigger deal than 1-year of Lindor. If Lindor tests FA and walks next year, the Mets still have a controlled starter for 2022. A really good starter too. A+ for the Mets. B- for the Indians. They got a decent return. Rosario and Gimenez both showed some nice flashes at the major-league level. 2 more prospects that…you never know what you’re going to get. And they made sure the Mets were taking on salary.
@ von purple
Getting one year of Lindor will only make his signing with the Yankees hurt more.
I think the Mets are in a better place financially than the Yankees for the short-term.
Fair trade but considering where Cleveland is, I think they should’ve gone for lower level, higher-ceiling prospects.
Both those prospects are high ceiling. They have elite talent just raw and no track record.
I was referring to Rosario and Gimenez who both grade out to be MLB average. I understanding needing to replace Lindor at SS but they don’t need both.
The Mets feel the 2 major Leaguers aren’t good enough for them. Hence trading for Lindor. So for Mets they had little value as backup players. Easier to part with them then prospects. Cleveland may have wanted more prospects but had to settle for this. Who knows, they may have targeted those guys. They are cutting salary and filled two holes for little over one million.
While the Cleveland package has the protentional to be good pieces, but the Mets got Lindor/Carrasco. It’s a no brainer. A for Mets C for Indians
This, fortunately, or unfortunately, is the new normal in baseball. Teams will sell it all off and there will be buyers that once were sellers, but are making a push for a championship. Its unfortunately but with the collective bargaining as it is, you will see this more and more.
Lindor is not going to be a FA guys. Just saying.
He very well may. I think the Mets will sign him, but it’s going to take a lot and it may very well be after he declares FA. We’ll see.
Cohen won’t let him leave. He spent 150 mil on a stick figure painting.
I have no doubt Cohen will spend to keep him. That doesn’t mean Lindor doesn’t test FA to drive up the offer. This is going to be a 310M+ type deal.
If he spent 150 mil on a stick figure painting, then he also could afford 20 mill on 1 year of Lindor. Your logic doesn’t work.
The shark one was really eccentric.
its never a good idea to assume that.
Ik you’re hoping and praying it happens. But it won’t. You’ll face Lindor for the next decade lol.
There’s a difference here. Lindor may very well be a Met for 10+ years. That still doesn’t mean he won’t be a FA next year.
@MetsFan22 – look at your user name.
Metsfan22?
The Mets did great; it’s Frankie Lindor for Chri**st’s sake. And with Cookie as a chaser.
I would think if I was the Indians, intent on moving both, I would have separated them. Carassco’s a significant “get”, and he’s being regarded here by some as a filler. Cookie’s a #2 starter….on a competitive team.
And the Mets get some extra stuff. Frankie is Frankie…nuff said. And Carassco coming back from medical stuff will fill the back pages of the Post and Daily News through most of the winter…summer too.
Funniest part of the “poll” was that 19 people voted the trade for the Mets an “F”. LOL.
Yea. Rosario and Gimenez were 2 of those 19.
Marlins fan base too
Yeah, I’d like to see someone who gave the Mets an F to post why.
It’s ridiculous. Even in the absolute worst case scenario: Let’s say Lindor has an off year and walks (I don’t think either happens)…the Mets still go their starting pitcher. This was a huge win for the Mets.
Just to bust b@lls.
Big Andres Gimenez superfans.
I went A Mets B Indians
That’s where I am. Cleveland obviously is not going to keep Lindor so they needed better than a supplemental pick for him which they got for him and if they’re going into a reload/rebuild then Carrasco was worth losing for a better package.
At the end of the day they lose 1 season of Lindor, 3 seasons of a aging Carrasco and a would be supplemental pick for a young shortstop with good potential a former good prospect who needs a change of scenery/coaching, 2 really good, projectably prospects and 50m in salary savings.
Guaranteed MarlinsFanBase gave it an F, and if you asked him why, the answer would somehow involve Bill Pulsipher and Jason Isringhausen.
I can justify the F. Lindor is a expensive rental. For what carasco makes they could of just spent a little more and signed Morton. Could of traded for Musgrove who is a lot cheaper. They gave up 2 good prospects and 2 players who used to be high rated prospects. One looks like a good ss defensively at least.
That still doesn’t justify an F though. The only way you could possibly vote F would be if you think that Gimenez or Rosario are currently better options than Lindor, and if you think the Mets should have used Carrasco’s money to just sign a free agent pitcher. I don’t think that either case is true. Personally I voted A for the Mets and B for the Indians.
This is an A+ trade for the mets if they extend lindor. Carlos carrasco just makes this trade even sweeter. For the indians this is just not fair. I dont care if all 4 prospects become good major leaguers. The indians have an owner who does not want to win. Sell the team. This is embarrassing. Trading a franchise player in his prime because your cheap is organizational malpractice.
Extending Lindor won’t make this trade a win for NYM. At least not on it’s own. It has to be on the cheap. And looking at what the Padres are allegedly about to pay Fernando Tatis Jr, I’m not liking their chances.
Extending Lindor will make this trade a win. It will probably take somewhere around $275-300 million to re-sign him, but it is definitely worth it. Tatis doesn’t really impact this extension, as he is in a much different contract situation than Lindor.
Why are you calling Amed Rosario a prospect? Gimenez was elite in MLB last year if you watched an inning of the games, which you didn’t.
Cleveland wants to win and have been doing a great job. They don’t need carasco and who knows how much money lindor wanted in order to accept extension. I don’t want him for over 300 million if I am Cleveland.
Win for the Mets. Indians did good
Wow Indians just got ripped off big time.
Mets fans on here trying hard. If Lindor doesn’t resign y’all gave up solid pieces for nothing. The Mets probably won’t make the playoffs this year and Lindor will end up with whoever has the deepest pockets.
The Mets have the deepest pockets and they probably do make the playoffs unless they really underperform.
Even if Lindor doesn’t re-sign, the Mets could simply sign any one of Story, Correa, Seager, or Baez. None of those guys are as good as Lindor, but they would still be elite options at shortstop. And yes, the Mets will make the playoffs this year assuming they can stay healthy(knock on wood).
I would’ve liked Cleveland’s side of the trade more if they could’ve added a potential closer in the deal.
Cleveland already has their key bullpen pieces in Karinchak, Clase, Maton, Sandlin, Moss, and Wittgren
Why? They got a kid who could be a front line starter. I’d rather have that and if he fails he definitely has closer stuff.
It’s a bit like the Betts trade. Betts and Price for one major leaguer instead of two and two prospects. Yes there are differences. Sigh. But the Red Sox were not keeping Betts and the Indians were not keeping Lindor. It takes time to evaluate the results. And some of those results really aren’t part of the evaluation, such as completely random injuries. Chronic issues, yes. I like the trade from both perspectives, I give it a B. Yes, a fleece can happen but both ways over time. Sure Slocumb for Lowe and Varitek, but Anderson for Bagwell? Both bad decisions but each team felt they needed the bullpen guy.
No trade is the same but very similar. I grade trades the second they are made though. If you have to wait 4 years then better not trade. No matter how great the prospects,most will fail to be good players let alone stars. If they become a average player you did fantastic. Will be lucky to get a low leverage reliever or utility guy. It’s just a numbers game. Aquire as much talent as possible to increase your odds of hitting on something good.
I don’t think the trade was THAT bad. The two prospects sent are incredibly young with potential. Sadly, they come with an enormous amount of risk too. The oldest of the two prospects is 20. For a player of Lindor and Corrasco’s ilk, you don’t expect prospects like that to be an important part of the trade.
However, Rosario was a highly regarded prospect and I think there is still a chance to unlock the potential originally seen in him. Giminez may not have posted sexy numbers but he is good and valuable to have.
I do find the Indians return for the trade as underwhelming but it’s not egregious. The Mets paid for 1 year of Lindor, a starter that will be 34 before the season starts and took on all $27M. It’s even more understandable when you consider that right now, cash is king. Just look at all the trades we’ve seen as opposed to free agent signings.
If I were an Indians fan, I would be upset at the return, but this isn’t on the same level of some of the stinkers we’ve seen.
Well said. I like the return, gave it a c. Maybe should be higher given the trade market. But it’s what I expected. Probably should have given the mets a c as well. They paid the going rate,any team in baseball could have done they same, just happened to be them. They certainly did fleece cleveland.
As a Mets fan I’m ecstatic but even so I’m confident Rosario will break out offensively. He’s got to learn to be more patient at the plate and I think he’ll learn that in Cleveland. LFGM!
Cleveland C. They were determine to cut salary and accomplished that goal. They got 2 good prospects and at least a fill in for ss. I can see people giving them a a or b. They did get the best they could. Of course san diego would have paid more if they were interested and many other teams as well if not for the situation we are in. If it wasn’t about the money though they could have gotten at least as good of prospect with comp pick. So really they just got 1 prospect and 2 light hitting players.
Mets B. I could see a A here or even a C. They paid the price but the way the market is it was a cheap price. They did give up 2 good prospects but it’s hard to trade with Cleveland and not give up something good. I only recall one team doing so in recent memory. However you feel about the 2 middle infielders the mets felt they weren’t good enough.
Rosario was a top ten prospect who was probably brought to MLB too quickly. He is only 25, an age when most good prospects begin to make their mark.
Gimenez was a top fifty prospect with some MLB experience at age 21, now 22. Plus two second round picks.
The Cleveland grade (I put C) is really incomplete, because we don’t yet know what acquisition(s), which have been promised, will be made with some of the savings.
Sticking with a C for Cleveland. It’s a return with some definite upside, but also feels like it could have been for just Lindor. Adding Carrasco to the deal really makes it feel like there’s another quality piece missing from the equation, considering how favorably he compares the the currently available SP crop. Not shamefully bad, but I’d probably have been disappointed if I were a CLE fan.
On the flip side, hard not to give the Mets an A on the deal. The risk is there that you lose Lindor after only one season, but that’s probably a risk worth taking if you’re that serious about making a real competitive run.
The Indians got a ss and 2b back.
It’s win win situation only if they sign Lindor long term. HELLOOOOOO
For the Mets, if the choice is Springer or JBJ + 2 pitchers I think option B makes more sense.
This lineup with Lindor is good enough to sacrifice some of Springers bat for better D. Also leaves money for 2 relievers or a reliever and rotation depth.
I think a lot of Cleveland fans are not looking on the bright side of this. Lindor was not re-signing with the Indians after 2021 so something is better than nothing. Gimnez is a pretty solid player and will be the SS for the next three years. Rosario will be the 2B at least for 2021. The prospects only time will tell.
Fascinating that the Mets 9/10 prospects slot in 25/28 for CLE…
The fact that the prospects are so weak in CLE’s system points to the Mets winning the deal.
It’s not 25/28. I think it’s 12/16.
It’s just some lame website with clueless people ranking prospects. Wolf is a top 15 prospect in just about any system.
It depends on what Cleveland does with the extra money.. Roughly a $30 mil payroll dump. Sign Hernandez and Brantley or Ramirez and Bieber long term: good deal given the circumstances. Sign some low OBA stiffs and let competitive players jump away: willful return to mediocrity.
I’d like to give the Mets an A-; it’s not quite a complete no brainer given the amount of money owed and only one year of Lindor control, but it’s pretty close.
Cleveland, much tougher grade. I think at a minimum you need to see what else they do this offseason with the payroll flexibility
You can’t have a win/win when one side fleeces the other. Mets gave up prospects & the ones with upside are three years away at best. Cleveland gave up an All Star Lindor who has his best years still to come. Indians will regret this trade for a decade.
I don’t think the owner will regret saving 47 million for 1 year of lindor and a pitcher they don’t need.
Cleveland gets a zero for the day.
I think saving $47mm in guaranteed contract money is a huge win for the Tribe. If they’re trading Lindor who is arguably their best and franchise player why not package him with a #2 rotation veteran to receive a greater trade package? Especially knowing the likelihood of a playoffs presence drastically decreases after moving Lindor.
With that said from a talent perspective major win for the Mets! These are two players that are game changing types who fit in perfectly to the current structure of the roster.
Mets: A
Indians: C +
I realize in this fast food world most want everything right now, including winners and losers in all trades. Can’t definitively grade trades like this one that include prospects for years though. Who knows how Wolf will turn out? How the young outfielder will develop?
In the now, it’s a big upgrade for the Mets, adding Lindor to the lineup and defense and Carrasco to the rotation. But in the future, Clev might realize a quality return from full development of Gimenez and the prospects.
I can definitely declare cleveland a winner. Give me 47 million to invest and I call that winning. They don’t need carasco. He is nice but they can field 5 solid pitchers. He is gone in 2 years anyways. Lindor is a big loss but he was gone after this season. It’s a business and 2020 was hard on most teams especially cleveland. 2021 is going to be rough. Fortunately cleveland is in a position to cut payroll and ride the storm comfortably. Let’s see what moves they make. Moreland and Pederson or Pillar makes this team a playoff contender.
Think the biggest issue I have with your take on the deal is that it feels like you’re talking about Carasco as nothing more than a spare part when you keep saying CLE didn’t need him. They’re definitely a worse team without him, but even if their goal is to trim payroll rather than be the absolute best team possible, it’s not like his contract is egregious at all.
They don’t need him. They have 5 good starters and more on the way. It would be nice to have him. They don’t have 5 starters better than him. But at 27 million it’s a luxury they can afford to lose. If there was full fans in 2021 and the cba wasn’t coming up I would say they keep him. Rich people hate losing money,so this makes up for 2020 and ensures 2021 won’t be in the red.
I understand they still have the pieces to fill out a rotation, but simply saying “they didn’t need him” sort of feels like a cop out to explain the very fair questioning of including him in this particular deal. I’m not going to harp about the money situation, because I get that it’s not my money to spend owners lost money this year, and it’s not even the team I’m a fan of. My sticking point is that he’s a better pitcher than having the entirety of his value tied to shedding his fair contract should have dictated, that’s all.
Mets didnt need Rosario or Gimenez as Mauricio is our top prospect and is a ss/3b and they acquired Lindor!! Im curious to know who your team is lol??…Mets wont sweat losing either shortstop so why are you harping on defending Clevelands side of the trade?? We have by far the richest owner in baseball so we will never worry about losing these guys!! DeGrom is getting older and we have a 2 or 3 year window to win with him……Mets will be a player from here on out in FA and being a contender. Wilpons are gone and Mr. Cohen will not accept mediocrity and he already stated that….
Not sure how you see it as a cop out. Yes they are likely better with him but they see him as an expensive declining asset. Not sure if you are trolling me or I am not explaining my reasoning well. Best I can do though. Saying the same thing for a fourth time isn’t going to help. But here it is. They don’t care about his talent. They wanted his salary off the books and took what they felt was the best offer. Most people don’t like this but that’s how some baseball teams operate.
F. How do you not grade this trade as an F for the Indians? I guess they got some ok players in a no win situation. But they gave away a superstar and decent starting pitcher. MLB needs a salary cap now more than ever. It’s not a fix-all but it would help smaller market teams stay competitive.
Mets need a deep playoff run or Lindor no more.
Landscaping convention going great!
It’s only an A if they can get a long term deal done with Lindor.
Getting Carrasco made it an A whether they re-sign Lindor or not.
Mets A
Indians D-
I’m a lifelong Indians fan and I understand we are small market. We develop talent for other teams to win with. We do not draft well (minus Lindor and CC), but seem to know how to trade for good starting pitching.
We weren’t going to re-sign Lindor at all, so we should’ve traded him last year for a lot more. We got two prospects and two AAAA players.
If you’re not going to spend and get people excited, then sell the team to someone who will.
Nothing easier than spending other people’s money, eh?
They don’t spend money, they’re cheapskates. As I read on Twitter, the Dolans order water with lemon and sugar packets so they can make their own lemonade when at a restaurant.
Yeah they have spent plenty of times too in past years when there team is legit. U can get A LOT worse than Indians owners no doubt !
Need a minimum salary floor or when you tank the highest draft pick for you would be #15. Also stiffer penalty if you exceed $208m. Make them unprotect 5 people of the 40 man that the lowest salary, but highest win % teams can draft- similar to the rule 5 draft. Teams on tight budgets that do well should be rewarded so their fans are also rewarded. Tanking and choosing not to spend like the Orioles, Tigers. Pitt, etc should not receive high draft picks. No effort = no reward.
Leaving five players unprotected from the 40 man roster would be seriously unfair to good teams. Good teams have 40 good players to fill out their roster and would suffer if they left, but bad teams usually have a bunch of low level starters that they would let leave for nothing.
Also, I get that you don’t want tanking teams to draft high, but then how would small market teams get an advantage? They will never be able to outspend big markets like New York or Los Angeles, so their only way to compete is to draft well.
This is an awesome way to destroy the league.
Indians may as well trade Ramirez too, they have 4th place wrapped up this year
Since fleecing doesn’t exist, the Braves will give you Johan Camargo and Ender Inciarte for him.
SOLD!
47 million for a supplemental draft pk if Lindor walks after 1 yr.Billionaire playing craps with his baseball assets.Two second round picks plus your best young controllable organizational depth up the middle
LFGM!!! Great move and can’t wait for this year. Lets get it done.
Small market teams that spend over the floor (let’s say it is $70mil just for argument sake, but this next year after the pandemic there may be a few clubs under this) then they are not subject to the penalty of drafting #15. Example: Astros and Cubs both tanked for multiple years for high draft picks. Their fans suffered, the free agents lost a team that was willing to spend, but the owners saved money. That would be the goal- to make sure a fan base and to a lesser degree the players are not forced to wait until the owner wants to spend. Owners are approved and vetted so they can spend some.
Whoever gave the Mets an ‘F’ must have meant the trade was fantastic
Big win for the Mets.
Probably not a big win for Cleveland, but it’s certainly not a loss. They get cash off the books and a better than serviceable package for a player who was leaving anyway. With the White Sox emerging from the basement and the Twins in position to contend for a while, Cleveland’s window is closing. That’s how it works. What they’re doing is trying to make sure it’s not closed so tightly that they can’t open it for a decade or more. I can’t fault them for that.
Am I the only one to think cleveland didn’t get enough ? Lindor is the full package, every mlb team is looking for a player like this and this one is a SS. Mets need to sign him long term, can’t let him walk
This trade reminds me of the Johan Santana-Carlos Gomez one
Of course Indians didn’t get enough. How are they not demanding Conforto or Alonso. That GM is worse than Cashman. v They didn’t get enough for Kluber either. The Indians desperately need outfield help and got two middle infielders. All Yankees fans know Indians would be demanding Frazier or Dominguez from them.
Alonso is off the table and Conforto would be a free agent after the season. Putting them in the same situation as with Lindor.
They didn’t get enough for Kluber either.
——————————————————
It was one of the most one-sided trades in history. The Rangers paid $18,500,000 for one inning of work.
How are they not demanding Conforto or Alonso.
—————————————————–
Because there was no chance of them getting Alonso?
Mets and Phillies fighting for fourth place in the NL East.
Yea ok. Mets will be fighting Braves for division. Last year it was starting pitching that hurt them. They led the league in hitting and just added Lindor and had one of the better pens and added May, They will be adding another Bullpen arm and a CF, plus the return of Stroman and Syndergaard in June plus Carrasco gives them a top rotation again. There’s a reason why Vegas has them only behind the Dodgers, Yankees, Padres and Braves now.
Myself,I’m glad the trade went down if for no other reason Lindor was not going to resign with us. Could the Indians have gotten more ? Maybe . However given the overall situations it was ok. Evidently they couldn’t do better or I think they would have. It’s going to take time to evaluate this deal although on the surface it looks like we got the short end. To be truthful I’m glad the smiling mercenary is gone. I couldn’t take another year of all the drama and theatrics he would cause.
Mets’ Cano deal was a fleecing. Kelenic will be a top 3 rookie of the year candidate whenever he gets moved up.
The deal for the Indians could be a win/win if the kids they got develop. Nice upside in both. Gimenez is a slick glove w TBD bat. Rosario….roll of the dice. He could be slightly below/above avg at SS. His def
is meh, but he has shown spurts of good hitting. He gets himself in trouble chasing though. Bad habit of his.
Kelenic will be a top 3 rookie of the year candidate whenever he gets moved up.
———————————————————————————–
The funny part is, while fans think Kelenic is a great prospect, and they have no idea who Gimenez is, Gimenez was ranked higher by Baseball America in pre-2019.
We get it: Lindor was traded and MLB news is slow and sucks lately. But please find something else to report and move on.
You have to break this into two parts. Lindor had to be moved. Only a coupe team were willing to pay the 20M. So they took Rosario and a #2 pick from 2018. Not so good good Cleveland and a great move for the Mets. It’s Cano’s money. Carrasco is where it hurts. They must have loved Gimenez to take him and 2019 #2. Mets get an A here. Indians could have got more for Carrasco
maybe they loved gimenez because they are smart, unlike Sandy and the criminal owner.
IMO, whenever a team packages two excellent players in one trade, they are diminishing their overall return for those players. It’s a lazy way to trade. The Mets farm isn’t exactly running over with talent. Obviously we have no idea about the discussions taking place behind closed doors, but I have to think if Cleveland had traded them in separate deals, they could have netted better/more talent.
If you squint your eyes enough you could see how Cleveland got some value in the trade. But the Mets clearly got the best players and show a commitment to win now.
It goes without saying that the team that just added $33M in salary got the better 2021 players. And the same goes for the commitment to win now.. For some reason, 90% of the posts seem to side with either the Mets won the trade, or Cleveland won the trade.
It could easily be argued that both teams won, since both teams have completely different short-term and long-term outlooks.
I voted A for Mets and C for Cleveland. The reason for both is that I felt the Mets got both Lindor and Carrasco for less than I think Cleveland could have had for them both. It seems that there my not have been much of a market for them considering the final trade pieces. No real downside for the Mets even if Lindor and Carrasco are perform as average players for the Mets. The only way this doesn’t work for the Mets is if both players fail badly, after the Mets extend Lindor long-term, and one of the players headed to Cleveland ends up being a stud.
Saw the press conference.
So, how long will it be for us to start seeing the Mets fans’ “Lindor wants to sign with the Mets because he loves NY” comments? After all, we saw how much he wants to be in NY in the way he dodged the extension question when it came to committing to the Mets. Seems like it will be without a doubt a money thing, but I do look forward to Mets fans saying he will do it because he loves NY.
Please when will those start.
That’s one of the problems with the deal. Lindor has some leverage over the NYMs. If they don’t sign him, then they gave up a lot of value for one year of Lindor. If they do sign him, it will likely be for an above-market rate.
Either way, there is a lot of ways for this trade to turn south.
exactly. as a mets fan i despise this trade. so Sandy. all he saw was a ss who hits 30 hrs a year. no concern that he hit 202 with risp in 2020, and 176 with risp in 2019?
Gimenez was getting some ROY love last year. and Rosario, well he is still 25 and might have been worth the CF experiment. not sad to see him go, but Gimenez could be lindor without the HRs, but more speed. he had some big clutch hits last year too.
only the gullible would buy the Mets spin ‘we didn’t trade our top (7) prospects!’ yeah the standard decimal system is easily ignored when you don’t want to say you threw in your 8th and 9th best.
you are messing with his narrative.
if i wasn’t a mets fan for life, i’d laugh when gimenez plays all star level shorstop, hits 290 and steals 50 bases.
and alderson will still be crowing because, home runs.
Giants fans are still bummed that they missed out on Lindor.
Now their 2021 lineup will be Sans Francisco !!