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MLBTR Polls: Padres Versus Blue Jays Bullpen Showdown

By TC Zencka | March 20, 2021 at 8:34pm CDT

The Toronto Blue Jays uncharacteristically spent much of the offseason in the spotlight, exhausting their Rolodex to add talent in free agency. As a result, their lineup, to borrow a phrase, is in the best shape of its life. Yet, doubts about their status as contenders prevail, largely because of a perceived lack of high-end firepower in the rotation. They brought Robbie Ray back, but otherwise added only Steven Matz coming off a disastrous season in New York. Though Matz has impressed so far, per MLB.com’s Mark Feinsand, the rotation anxiety is warranted. Arguably, however, the bullpen poses a greater threat to the Jays as they attempt to unseat the Rays and Yankees atop the American League East.

GM Ross Atkins landed stud closer Kirby Yates in free agency, and despite just two appearances this spring, they’re ready to commit to the former Padre as their closer, writes Gregor Chisholm of the Toronto Star. There was little doubt, though the 34-year-old is hardly unblemished. He made just six appearances last year before undergoing surgery to remove bone spurs from his elbow. Thus, he’s not likely to shoulder a workhorse burden as a 70-80 inning arm out of the pen. So while the glory and the title will belong to Yates, the responsibility of holding leads weighs just as heavily on arms like Jordan Romano, Rafael Dolis, Tyler Chatwood and David Phelps.

Romano burst onto the scene as a legitimate weapon with a 1.23 ERA and 36.8 percent strikeout rate in 2020, while Rafael Dolis returned stateside for the first time since 2013 to post an equally impressive 1.50 ERA and 31.0 percent strikeout rate. Both had FIPs roughly a run and a half higher than their ERAs, however, and could be in line for at least a touch of regression in 2021. Newcomers Chatwood and Phelps are pro arms, but they lack the pedigree of high-leverage, first-division bullpen stalwarts.

Julian Merryweather has some potential to pop as a multi-inning option. The Blue Jays aim to get the 29-year-old right-hander around 100 total innings. He’s 29 years old with only 13 career innings in the Majors, but he’s long been an intriguing talent. Armed with a fastball that averages close to 97 mph, Merryweather is at least worth watching as a potential difference-maker. The Jays hoped Tom Hatch might be another sleeper, but they await a status update on elbow inflammation, per Arden Zwelling of Sportsnet.ca (via Twitter).

From the left side, Francisco Liriano, Ryan Borucki, and Anthony Kay are the most likely to make the roster. The 37-year-old Liriano has been in the Majors since 2005, but the 3.47 ERA he posted last season in Pittsburgh was his best ERA or FIP since his first Pirates’ tenure in 2015. Kay has a higher ceiling, but he has yet to establish himself at the big-league level.

On the whole, the Blue Jays very much require Yates to actualize as the guy who locked down 53 saves with a 1.67 ERA/1.93 FIP for the Padres from 2018-19. If he doesn’t return to that form, the bottom could fall out for this group; a rudderless unit is prone to spiral.

Speaking of Yates’ former club, the Padres, too, are working to establish a new pecking order at the back end of the bullpen. Yates left town, but so did his replacement Trevor Rosenthal. The Padres exported another potential closer in Andres Munoz to the Mariners last August. Luis Patiño could have been used out of the bullpen as well, had he not been included in the Blake Snell deal.

Unlike the Blue Jays, however, the Padres have made repeated efforts to replenish their bullpen reserves with veteran, battle-tested arms. While keeping Craig Stammen in the fold, the Padres added Drew Pomeranz and Pierce Johnson in free agency last winter. They supplemented that crew with free agent additions Mark Melancon and Keone Kela this year. President of Baseball Ops and GM A.J. Preller didn’t stop there, however. He exhausted the trade market as well, netting Tim Hill from the Royals and Emilio Pagan from the Rays prior to 2020. Then, in the deal that sent Munoz to the Mariners, Preller acquired Dan Altavilla and Austin Adams, the latter of whom continues to work his way back from injury. Even non-roster invitee Nabil Crismatt has impressed so far this spring.

Should that deep pool of arms prove insufficient, the Padres can fall back on their depth of prospect arms like MacKenzie Gore, Ryan Weathers, Adrian Morejon, Michel Baez, and others. For now, Morejon looks like he’ll start the year in the rotation, notes Kevin Acee of the San Diego Union-Tribune, but roles are certain to change throughout the season.

On a roster that includes 282 career saves, it’s Pagan who appears closest to nabbing the title of closer, writes Acee. Pagan had a difficult 2020, but the team believes right arm pain was a significant mitigating factor in his 4.50 ERA/4.69 FIP. He saved just two games last year, but he is only a year removed from locking down 20 saves for the Rays. He has averaged seven holds per season over the last four.

Granted, Pagan’s fastball velocity was down from 95.5 mph in 2019 to 94.5 mph in 2020. Even dropping velocity, his high-spin four-seamer showed elite vertical rise. He’ll weaponize it up in the zone, contrasting with his cutter, which zags where the fastball zigs.

Bottom line, the Blue Jays and Padres both field strong relief units – but both can reasonably chart a path to future adversity, though differently so. While Pagan isn’t the most experienced arm in the Padres’ pen – that would be Melancon with his 205 career saves – he’s certainly capable closing games. If not, the Padres have no shortage of alternatives, even with the threat of injury looming. The counterpoint: as they say in football, a team with three quarterbacks has none. For the Blue Jays, Yates won’t have nearly as much internal competition breathing down his neck, but that also means less of a safety net. The Jays don’t boast the diversity of options the Padres do –  what they have is three arms in Yates, Romano, and Dolis who posted sub-2.00 ERA’s in their last full season.

Different approaches, but the same goal: preserve leads and win enough ballgames to make the playoffs and contend for a title. Which bullpen do you trust more? What grade would you give each bullpen heading into 2021? Lastly, in a draft for 2021 comprised only of the veterans in the Padres ’and Blue Jays’ bullpens, I’m curious know what who MLBTR readers trust the most. Between both teams, who is the guy you’d want closing games on a contender?

(links for app users: poll 1, poll 2, poll 3, poll 4)

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MLBTR Originals MLBTR Polls Notes Polls San Diego Padres Tampa Bay Rays Toronto Blue Jays Trade Market A.J. Preller Adrian Morejon David Phelps Drew Pomeranz Emilio Pagan Jordan Romano Julian Merryweather Keone Kela Kirby Yates Mark Melancon Rafael Dolis Thomas Hatch

AL Notes: White Sox, Astros, Tigers
Main
Jonathan India And The Reds’ Grand Experiment
View Comments (70)

Comments

  1. DarkSide830

    2 years ago

    Pomeranz and Dolis are my two

    Reply
    • RemovePitcherWinsFromTheRecordBooks

      2 years ago

      Pomeranz needs TJ

      Reply
      • paddyo875

        2 years ago

        According to the San Diego Union-Tribune from 2 days ago, there is no structural damage found in Pomeranz’s elbow.

        Reply
        • RemovePitcherWinsFromTheRecordBooks

          2 years ago

          Forearm tightness = Tommy John. It’s like getting bitten by a zombie. It’s only a matter of time.

        • DarkSide830

          2 years ago

          like a dozen guys have been scratched with some degree of elbow/forearm issues over the past few days. likely not even 25% need TJS. there. are warning signs, but that’s not far along enough.

        • johnsilver

          2 years ago

          He’s had that UCL issue before, or think it was even called a “sprain”. Priller was spanked by MLB when he was dealt to Boston for hiding his medicals, but his elbow held up for a little over a year until it gave trouble, then he stank it up for 2 seasons, seem to remember the curve and everything else he threw reeked.

          He’s going to have to get it repaired sometime, but aren’t the pad’s on the hook now for like 30m to him? History showed last time he went down with forearm tightness/sprain, he was of no use a cpl years afterward. Hope no repeat.

        • Mccafe

          2 years ago

          21% of voters that voted for Pomeranz just wasted their votes … he’s injured at best, even if there’s no structural damage… Romano, Yates and Dolis will all have better era’s, as will mellancon…

        • Hudson6

          2 years ago

          Tell it to Tyler Glasnow. He had an actual forearm strain in 2019. It doesn’t seem to have slow him down. No TJ surgery either.

        • lordd99

          2 years ago

          Every season there are multiple pitchers with forearm tightness who never get TJS. Too numerous to name.

        • FletcherFan69

          2 years ago

          I went to the gym today and my forearms are a little tight… where’s my TJS?

        • Lorenzo

          2 years ago

          Thank you, Dr. James Andrews. It’s nice to know we have a medical mathematician in the group.

        • BrianBrian

          2 years ago

          this is the best way I’ve heard people talk about lingering injuries for pitchers.

        • RemovePitcherWinsFromTheRecordBooks

          2 years ago

          @Lorenzo leave the snark to those of us who are good at it buddy.

        • Smelly_Cobb

          2 years ago

          Self proclaimed snark expert over here

      • stpbaseball

        2 years ago

        I don’t believe that. keep those negative wishes at home. lots of pitchers go through dead arm during st

        Reply
        • RemovePitcherWinsFromTheRecordBooks

          2 years ago

          Not wishing anything. Just stating facts.

        • Longtimecoming

          2 years ago

          @Remove – he says this about every Padres
          Pitcher. Just ask when Lamet has his surgery scheduled, he will know the answer for sure- LOL.

        • dodgerfan83

          2 years ago

          Still waiting for lamets spring training debut. At the very least the padres are at starting the season with him.

        • dodgerfan83

          2 years ago

          *arent starting

        • Gwynning

          2 years ago

          Even the coolest fanbases have their fair-share of smooth-brained buffoons… that is, if he is even a fan of anything besides pessimistic and idiotic “facts”.

        • lordd99

          2 years ago

          Give us the stats.

        • Longtimecoming

          2 years ago

          Dodgerfan83 – I think they said Wednesday for Lamet. Apparently pitched simulated game 2-3 innings yesterday with no problems.

          PS don’t tell @remove that they canceled the TJ surgery!

  2. Not Xabial

    2 years ago

    Padres pen and it’s not close in my opinion.

    Reply
  3. stpbaseball

    2 years ago

    I think Yates would be first choice but after that the pads have the next 4 or 5 guys you’d want closing games. pom, pagan, kela, and melancon have all done it well already.

    Reply
    • TheBoatmen

      2 years ago

      I’d go Yates and Romano especially if Pomeranz has elbow trouble. Dolis is better than those last 3 guys. Thornton is the X-factor here and not even mentioned. Think he is going to be great out of the bullpen this year. Lots of K’s.

      Reply
    • Mccafe

      2 years ago

      21% of voters that voted for Pomeranz just wasted their votes … he’s injured at best, even if there’s no structural damage… Romano, Yates and Dolis will all have better era’s, as will mellancon…

      Reply
      • CNichols

        2 years ago

        @mccafe Hold up, you want us to believe that Pomeranz is damaged goods, but that Yates is going to better even though he’s coming off an elbow surgery?

        You can’t have that both ways, if Yates is going to recover from his injury and be in prime form then why isn’t Pomeranz?

        Reply
    • Hudson6

      2 years ago

      The Pares let Yates just walk away. Now people are expecting him to be better than anyone else in the Padre’s pen? If he was the Padres would have kept him.

      Reply
      • DrDan75

        2 years ago

        @Hudson6

        Yates and Rosenthal both wanted more money than the Padres were willing to pay. The former was coming off an injury shortened season and the latter is a Boras client who was clearly not as effective in the playoffs as he was during the regular season.

        More power to them, they both got paid. But I think Melanchon and Kela are both pretty decent pickups.

        Reply
        • Jasona9

          2 years ago

          DrDan75, “Melancon and Kela pretty decent pickups”. Yes I agree. AJ got them both for about 6M for the season. Pretty good considering Rosenthal will get 11M from the A’s and Yates will get 5.5M plus incentives from the Jay’s.

      • SDHotDawg

        2 years ago

        Don’t be so sure about that, Hudson. Preller’s not a genius, and he’s made plenty of mistakes. Especially with pitching.

        Reply
        • Hudson6

          2 years ago

          Undoubtedly the Padres as an organization did an extensive evaluation of Yates before they let him walk. If they thought there was any chance that he could return to his 2019 form they would have signed him.

        • SDHotDawg

          2 years ago

          Undoubtedly, Preller has the best evaluators in all of MLB.

          s/

        • Longtimecoming

          2 years ago

          @hotDawg – regardless of how good Preller’s evaluators may or may not be, Padres at least do have evaluators that have real information available to them as opposed to what some spew as “facts” (looking at you @remove) or knowledge on these posts by so many negative anti-fans.

        • SDHotDawg

          2 years ago

          My point is that at least one other team’s evaluators saw something they liked. I suppose you can call that a “fact.”

        • Longtimecoming

          2 years ago

          For the record, Kirby was great with fans at Spring Training. All the best in health and baseball to KY. Personally, I hoped for a return. The injury was the reason surely and I have to believe that Pads did their due diligence as I am sure they would have wanted him back as well – and yes, he was on record for wanting to stay. We will all see what happens. I’m pulling for him. Age, not really a long track record of being elite, recent serious injury, age again in recovery ability and money all factor in.

  4. WereAllJustGuestsHere

    2 years ago

    The real depth in the Jays organization is their bullpen, not their starting pitching. Guys like Mayza and Bergen won’t make the team as the second and/or third lefty and they’ve looked good enough to make the team. They’ve taken out a bullet like Merryweather by making him start and they still have a deep bullpen. Hatch too.

    Wonder if the Rangers or White Sox wish they gave Romano a shot when he was a Rule 5.

    Reply
    • TheBoatmen

      2 years ago

      Bergen was reacquired, can’t see him not making the team. Struck out the side again today. I know it is ST but still looks good.

      Reply
      • WereAllJustGuestsHere

        2 years ago

        I’d be fine with Bergen making the squad and his MPH is up. He has looked really good.

        Reply
  5. HBan22

    2 years ago

    I think the Padres should have tried harder to re-sign Yates, but Melancon/Kela was a pretty solid consolation prize.

    Reply
  6. amk1920

    2 years ago

    Padres bullpen is very overrated. Pomeranz is fantastic but not one player outside him scares anyone. Yates did and it should have been a no brainer to take a 1 year bet on him. Rosenthal too. As long as he doesn’t get the yips again 11 million is easily worth his performance.

    Reply
    • Jasona9

      2 years ago

      amk1920, Don’t forget Trevor Rosenthal didn’t do well in the playoffs, in fact he got racked! Yates is a lottery ticket. Will he rebound from his injury and return to his 2019 form? For his sake I hope so, but AJ Preller obviously doesn’t think he will.

      Reply
      • SDHotDawg

        2 years ago

        Rosenthal did fine. The one game he got “racked” was when he threw the 9th inning in a lost cause against the Dodgers.

        Reply
  7. Mahin Choudhury

    2 years ago

    Blue Jays bullpen could be scarier if Yates can return to his ’18-’19 form, but Padres are slightly better than Blue Jays in relief pitching.

    Reply
  8. dan55

    2 years ago

    The best thing you can do for a bullpen is have a strong rotation that is capable of going deep into games. The Padres have this, so I think they will have better bullpen stats.

    Reply
    • pwndroia

      2 years ago

      I really think the Blue Jays aren’t far v off. Very underrated rotation.

      Reply
  9. PapiElf

    2 years ago

    I wonder who voted for Dan Altavilla….

    Reply
    • Bird Dog

      2 years ago

      …Dan Altavilla.

      Reply
      • Brewer88

        2 years ago

        I really hope they part ways with Altavilla. He hasn’t pitched a decent inning this spring and was awful last year. I know he’s out of options.

        Reply
        • CNichols

          2 years ago

          I think they’re unfortunately going to have to keep him for depth.

          If Castillo, Strahm or even Guerra were healthy then I think they wouldn’t have room for Altavilla and would have to move on from him, but I think he’s going to make the team by default as a result of other choices being unavailable.

        • SDHotDawg

          2 years ago

          When was Altavilla good?

  10. jeffmaz

    2 years ago

    Closers are overrated, says every baseball quant.

    Reply
    • DarkSide830

      2 years ago

      its really a baffling point. The Phillies have had great 8th inning guys like Jeanmar and Neris since Pap left, but both struggled for the most part in the 9th. its said to be the same, but really is a different animal.

      Reply
    • DrDan75

      2 years ago

      @jeffmaz

      Closers used to be rare animals who had superior stuff and blew opposing hitters away to finish up tight ballgames. They would be like field goal kickers whose only purpose was to nail that long three-pointer from midfield with three seconds left in the game. That has changed since the days of Goose Gossage and Dennis Eckersley or even Mariano Rivera.

      Now just about everybody is in the mid-nineties, topping 100 mph happens all of the time, and at least one TJ surgery is routine. You can plug that closer hole with just about anyone who throws hard.

      Reply
  11. bleacherguy

    2 years ago

    Spring Training stats are not considered the best indicator but the Jays are leading MLB in Team Pitching ERA, WHIP and Batting Avg. against by considerable margins. I imagine that nobody would have bet on that.

    Reply
    • pwndroia

      2 years ago

      Robbie Ray is also underrated. Had a terrible year last year but has one of the best K rates in MLB.

      Reply
      • DarkSide830

        2 years ago

        yeah Ray looks like he’s on the rebound, which will be huge for that rotation

        Reply
  12. Mjshof

    2 years ago

    I bet TC gets paid by the word…

    Reply
  13. pwndroia

    2 years ago

    Blue Jays are very underrated. No lie- if Ryu and Pearson combine for a great 1-2 and Matz, Ray, and Stripling rebound, they will be lethal and may even be atop at the AL East. It’s not unthinkable- the talent is there, the consistency is not.

    Reply
  14. Brewer88

    2 years ago

    Austin Adams should have been on the list.

    Reply
    • Jasona9

      2 years ago

      Brewer88, I agree. Austin Adams has a wicked slider!

      Reply
  15. Jasona9

    2 years ago

    I wish Kirby Yates nothing but the best in Toronto, but if he ROCKS as a Blue Jay and gets back to his 2019 form AJ Preller may really, REALLY regret letting him get away. 5.5M for one season plus incentives is reasonable for a closer. And, Kirby did publicly state that he wanted to remain a San Diego Padre.

    Reply
  16. Ducky Buckin Fent

    2 years ago

    Man.
    I must really be missing something here.
    I think the Padres ‘pen is vastly superior to Toronto’s.

    Reply
    • I Beg To Differ

      2 years ago

      Toronto had a very underrated bullpen last year with Bass, Cole giving them solid results

      Bass 3.51 era / 3.62 FIP
      Cole 3.01 era / 4.31 FIP

      They had encouraging results from Hatch, Merryweather (4.15 era vs 2.26 FIP) in limited innings.

      Padres have the bigger names- pomeranz, melancon, kela, strahm plus highly regarded prospects in Gore, Morejon, Weathers, but the Jays certainly have very underrated guys and could surprise a lot of people.

      Moving Matz to the pen could save his career much like Miller, Pomeranz, Strahm, Hand benefitted from moving to the pen.

      Reply
      • Ducky Buckin Fent

        2 years ago

        @differ –
        I appreciate the response. Maybe I’m hung up on name brand & “back of the baseball card” stuff.

        It must be closer than I thought. SD isn’t the run away winner of the poll.

        I’ll still take the Pads bullpen.
        For what that’s worth (hint: Not Much).

        Reply
    • I Beg To Differ

      2 years ago

      Ideally, Toronto moves Matz to the pen, he has a career resurgence, Jays QO him, he departs via free agency as a top pen arm getting a multi year deal, and jays turn a minimal acquisition into draft picks and/or prospects if they trade him at the deadline. Think Matz is in his last arb year.

      Reply
      • WereAllJustGuestsHere

        2 years ago

        Matz is firmly in the starting rotation. But you might be onto something.

        Reply
  17. jimmertee

    2 years ago

    Wow, Tanner Roark gave up 7 runs in his outing against the Yankees in spring training today. What a surprise.

    Reply
    • WereAllJustGuestsHere

      2 years ago

      He was lucky to leave with only 7 given up.

      Reply
  18. C-Daddy

    2 years ago

    I’ve been very impressed with Matz so far. He could turn out to be a huge steal for the Jays if he keeps this up in the regular season.

    Reply

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