The Mariners have locked up one of the sport’s brightest young stars on a record-setting contract, announcing late Friday night they’ve signed Rookie of the Year candidate Julio Rodriguez to an extension. The deal, which begins this season, guarantees him $210MM over 12 years and contains both player and club options that can extend the length of the contract and push the total value as high as $470MM. Rodriguez, an Octagon client, also reportedly receives a full no-trade clause.
It is one of the more complex contracts agreed upon in major league history. According to reports from ESPN’s Jeff Passan and Ken Rosenthal of the Athletic, Rodriguez will make $120MM through 2029. Per Rosenthal, that takes the form of a $15MM signing bonus to be paid up front, with $105MM to be distributed between 2023-29. After the contract’s seventh year (2028), the Mariners must decide whether to effectively re-extend Rodriguez for either eight or ten years, with the size and value of that long-term “club option” dependent on how Rodriguez finishes in MVP voting.
At minimum, Seattle will be deciding on whether to extend the contract by eight years and another $200MM. That figure could escalate as follows, depending on Rodriguez’s finishes in MVP balloting over the next seven years:
- $240MM over eight years with two or three top ten finishes
- $260MM over eight years with four top ten finishes
- $280MM over eight years if he wins an MVP and finishes in the top five once more or finishes in the top five of MVP balloting on three occasions
- $350MM over ten years if he wins two MVP awards or finishes among the top five in balloting on four occasions
In the event Rodriguez hits that highest threshold and the Mariners exercise the option, the contract would max out at 18 years and $470MM in total value.
If the Mariners do not exercise their multi-year option after Year 7, Rodriguez will have a five-year, $90MM player option he can exercise after Year 8 of the contract. (That option value could escalate as high as $125.5MM based on his finishes in Silver Slugger voting and All-Star appearances). That $90MM figure is considered guaranteed money, as is the case with all player options. Between the $120MM he’ll be paid over the next eight seasons and the $90MM base value of the player option, Rodriguez’s guarantee lands at the aforementioned $210MM. There is, of course, a scenario where the Mariners do not pick up their 8- to 10-year “club option,” and Rodriguez also declines his five-year “player option,” which would then allow him to reach free agency after collecting $120MM over eight years, when he’ll be heading into his age-30 campaign.
Rodriguez, 21, broke camp with the Mariners this season and, after a rough couple of weeks to begin the year, burst into immediate stardom and has established himself as one of the frontrunners for Rookie of the Year honors. He’s currently hitting .269/.328/.471 with 20 home runs, 19 doubles, three triples and 23 steals (in 29 tries) — plus above-average defensive contributions in center field.
Those numbers are at least slightly skewed by a poor start to the year in which Rodriguez batted .136/.208/.159 with a 45% strikeout rate. Dating back to April 22, Rodriguez has mashed at a .285/.342/.508 clip. That production is about 46% better than league average after weighting for park and league, by measure of wRC+, which places him in a three-way tie with Alex Bregman and the also recently-extended Austin Riley for 12th-best among qualified Major League hitters. Rodriguez also ranks 13th in the Majors in both average exit velocity (92 mph) and hard-hit rate (49.6%) in that time, and his 14.9% barrel rate is MLB’s ninth-best mark.
Add in the fact that he’s done all of this at 21 years of age and after skipping the Triple-A level entirely, and his rookie season becomes all the more remarkable. Given that youth and lack of upper-minors seasoning, it’s quite possible that even though Rodriguez already ranks among the game’s best hitters, we’ve yet to see the best he has to offer.
From a defensive standpoint, Rodriguez has more than held his own in center field this season, turning in positive marks in Defensive Runs Saved (2), Ultimate Zone Rating (0.3) and Outs Above Average (5). Many scouting reports penned before his MLB debut suggested that as Rodriguez ages and continues to fill out, he could be destined for a corner outfield slot, but given his 70- or even 80-grade raw power and the solid work he’s flashed in center this season, he’ll have both the bat and likely the defensive chops to be an above-average contributor in right or left field.
The $210MM guarantee will give Rodriguez the record for largest contract ever signed by a player with under a year of Major League service time. That distinction currently belongs to Rays shortstop Wander Franco, who inked an 11-year, $182MM extension last November.
Rodriguez will topple that mark with ease, although it’s not an apples-to-apples comparison. Franco wasn’t promoted until midseason and inked his deal in the winter, when the Rays had six full seasons of club control left over him. Because Rodriguez made the Opening Day roster, he’ll get a full year of service in 2022 and would “only” have had five additional years of club control remaining. In that respect, he could technically be considered more of a one-plus player (between one and two years of service time), although even when viewing the contract through that lens, it’s still a record-setting agreement; Ke’Bryan Hayes’ $70MM extension in Pittsburgh was the previous record for a player with between one and two years of service.
Regardless of which service bracket one thinks more aptly applies to Rodriguez, this new deal now stands as the largest contract ever promised to a player with fewer than two years of Major League service time. In that aspect, Rodriguez and the Major League Baseball Players Association are surely pleased to see the precedent for young, superstar extensions moved even further forward.
All that said, there’s still potential for the contract to be quite favorable for the Mariners. Rodriguez would’ve likely earned near the league minimum in salary over the next two seasons (plus any payouts from the newly collectively bargained bonus pool for pre-arbitration players). A player with his upside and early dominance would likely have done quite well in arbitration, and while we can never know exactly how much he might’ve earned through that process, arbitration is generally based on precedent. Looking for recent comparables, Mookie Betts secured $57.5MM for his three arbitration seasons. If we put Rodriguez into that broad vicinity, his remaining five years of club control might have netted him somewhere in the range of $60MM — perhaps a few million more if he’d taken home an MVP Award and/or pushed the Betts precedent a bit further.
Rodriguez will be paid $15MM on average over the next eight seasons, with at least two free agent seasons bought out. That obviously pales in comparison to what he could’ve earned on the open market had he gone year-to-year and hit the free-agent market in advance of his age-27 season, and the Mariners will have an opportunity to keep him from hitting free agency at any point in his prime. That risk-reward tradeoff is the nature of early contract extensions, of course. There’s obviously ample risk of injury or downturn in performance for Rodriguez, all of which is baked into the relative discount rate for those open-market seasons.
From a team payroll vantage point, there’s ample room for Seattle to make a commitment of this nature. A significant portion of the team’s recent rebuild was dedicated to clearing long-term clutter from the books — e.g., the Robinson Cano trade — and the team’s long-term commitments are now rather minimal. Left-hander Robbie Ray is signed through the 2026 season, as is shortstop J.P. Crawford, but they’ll combine for just $37MM at that point. That would’ve only been Rodriguez’s fifth big league season, so the salaries on his contract will not quite have escalated to their maximum levels.
Looking more short-term, the books are also still accommodating. The Mariners, who’ll see veterans Mitch Haniger and Adam Frazier reach free agency at season’s end, had just over $63MM in guaranteed money on the 2023 payroll prior to this contract. That number doesn’t include an $8MM option for righty Chris Flexen, nor does it include a handful of arbitration raises: Luis Castillo (earning $7.35MM this season), Diego Castillo ($2.315MM), Paul Sewald ($1.735MM), Ty France (pre-arb) and Erik Swanson (pre-arb).
It’s a momentous day in Mariners history, one that firmly drives home the organization’s “win-now” mentality as it inches toward a postseason berth that would smash a two-decade playoff drought — currently the longest in major North American professional sports. There’s risk for both parties, but the contract is a continuation of the ever-growing trend of extending young stars at nine-figure rates that guarantee a player’s entire prime. The contract also locks Rodriguez down as the new face of Mariners baseball for the next decade-plus, ensuring them a charismatic, marketable star around whom to both build the roster and sell the product to the fanbase.
Jesse Sanchez of MLB.com first reported that the two sides were nearing an extension worth more than $200MM guaranteed and as much as $450MM in total value. ESPN’s Jeff Passan reported the contract length and exact guarantee. USA Today’s Bob Nightengale reported the agreement was in place. Passan and provided specifics on the financials. Rosenthal also reported the deal contained a full no-trade clause.
Image courtesy of USA Today Sports.
jjd002
Good for Seattle and Rodriguez. Future is bright in Seattle. They should be competing for the division in about 3 years or so.
Bk11235 2
3 years? No! Like next year if they add 1 big bat and another starting pitcher
dannycore
Don’t even need to add a starter with Castillo, Ray, Gilbert and Kirby headlining. Marco and Flexen are crazy good options for 5s
Stevil
I agree that they won’t need to add a starter and I would add that they have 6 starters right now, and with Flexen’s vesting option locking him in at 8m next year, he’ll likely be a trade chip this offseason.
Seattle also has Hancock and Dollard, both of whom are just about MLB-ready, and a few other promising arms right behind them (Berroa, Miller, and Woo).
Seattle needs a LHRP, which may prove to be Boyd, but it’s primarily bats they need (both infielders and outfielders) and I would argue there’s a need for three.
28rings
only if the Astros stop cheating
goastros123
There is irony in a Yankees fan being the one to say that.
CamFrost
If the Astros are so good that you’re still crying about them cheating, then Seattle has no shot it seems.
myaccount2
I don’t think a poster on a message board saying anything about the Astros cheating affects how teams finish in the standings, Cam.
Rsox
I really think after 5 years its time to put that to rest already
crestonguy
That was me banging the trash can twice offering my support
Samuel
Be a good idea to Mute all the kids that forever talk about the Astros cheating.
No Salary Cap For You! (Come Back One Year)
I hope it follows them the rest of their careers, and if they are borderline hof, I hope this keeps them out.
CaptainJudge99
The bad old Samurai is no fun. Pay no mind to him, like he pays no mind to his precious Royals, his favorite button is mute. Little does he know we have muted him long ago.
Thank_God_Im_Not_Tim_Dierkes
Sorry I was watching the Astros game and couldn’t focus on your comment with the sound of someone banging a trash can… So what were you saying?
Thank_God_Im_Not_Tim_Dierkes
Yeah, let’s cover our ears in the corner and pretend that it all goes away when we shut our eyes! Thank you for being a beacon of maturity!
Thank_God_Im_Not_Tim_Dierkes
Where ever Carlos Beltran is reading your comment, he’s probably kicking the crap out of a trash can because of it!
Thank_God_Im_Not_Tim_Dierkes
Clearly as you are responding to his comment! But hey he’s a Royals fan, he’s allowed to be a little persnickety and how would you deal with cheering for a franchise that’s longest tenured athletes are a HOF pitcher in the twilight of his career and the team mascot?
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
Cheating or no cheating, Dusty Baker can’t find ways to win
coupofthecentury
5 years worth of resentment and elevated blood pressure is a tough way to live. Be healthy out there fellas.
Sunday Lasagna
There are only 5 Astros from 2017 that are still on the team, Gurriel, Altuve, Bregman, McCullers & Verlander. Only 3 of them are batters. Gurriel was in his first full season in 2017, he posted a 121 OPS+. Career OPS+ is 112 and he bettered his 2017 mark in 2019 and 2021. Trash cans, if they had any impact, it wasn’t much. Bregman was also on his first full season in 2017, he posted an OPS+ of 125. Bregman blew that number away in subsequent seasons posting OPS+‘S of 152 and 162 in 2018 and 2019. The trash cans did not seem to help him at all. Altuve was in his Age 27 season in 2017, a veteran of 6+ years. He posted an OPS+ of 160, the highest of his career, and he won an MVP. In the years since, not including the Covid 2020 season, his OPS+ marks have been 130, 131, 127 and this year so far at age 32, 148. In that span he also posted his only two 30HR seasons. It’s possible the trash cans helped Altuve achieve his career year in 2017, but he looks to be the only player on the current team that has that baggage, and we are talking 5 years ago. Not an Astros fan, although I loved their cameo in the Bad News Bears.
iverbure
It won’t and it won’t. What should follow anyone is the Yankees trying to cover up they’re cheating via the courts. Obviously they were doing more then what they were caught for. Otherwise they wouldn’t have tried to hide it
BuddyBoy
More like next year if they can add two bats this off-season
jjd002
They are 13.5 back of Houston and Houston has shown no glimpse of a decline. They are more than 2 bats away from catching Houston.
Thank_God_Im_Not_Tim_Dierkes
The Mariners also were 6-6 in the first 12 games, the Astros ace is 39-years-old and they had to face him a disproportionate 6 times this season, then add into it the fact that the Mariners have been battling a slew of injuries, not just a LF or a guy getting hurt for a few days, but the bulk of their team has had time on the DL, time in the minors, or been suspended for the altercation with the Angels. If the Mariners play 19 games with the Astros and they have 5 starters, they should face a guy at most 4 times, so take away five wins with 39-year-old Verlander and the Mariners are 6-8 against Houston despite the injuries and prior to getting Castillo. Plus Julio and the Mariners are growing into their prime, Houston is aging out of their best seasons. Next year the Mariners will win the division, guaranteed. The Astros simply are not built for continued dominance.
User 2079935927
Good now when this Mariners tank. I won’t have to read how bad Angels are having a Generational talent as in MT. Jealousy abounds on here.
Mehmehmeh
Pretty big reach to that guarantee. Also hou has at least two aces in rotation this year. Three if McCullers returns to last years level. Due to pitching development, the rotation projects well in the coming years even if JV leaves (probably will).
jjd002
Not built to continue dominance? This is the best record they’ve ever had through this many games. Better than the 2017 WS team and the 2019 team (all time great team). Ie, not going down like you are implying here. You act like Houston hasn’t missed Brantley for most of the season or just got McCullers back, not gotten anything at all from catcher, CF, and 1B. Imagine if they got league average production from those positions – Seattle would be 25 games out.
NWMarinerHawk
Lol
BuddyBoy
That number is if he hits every escalator and the contract goes 20yrs with the options.
stymeedone
Fans will start complaining about the contract right sfter the option kicks in.
Tcsbaseball
Dipoto sucks And the mariners will continue to flounder like they always have …… see what I did there ?
miltpappas
Too bad the future of the city itself blows.
CaptainJudge99
Excellent job Mariners! Just make sure Julio doesn’t get ringworm like Fernando Tatis or @Fink Ployed another Fugazi on here, just look at his screen pic and you’ll understand. Lol.
iverbure
Everyone said the tatis jr contract was good too.
Mynameisnoname
Sounds like a lot of insurance being built in for Seattle.
rememberthecoop
He looks like the real deal but I still wouldn’t do it. Way too much risk for the team.
Samuel
rememberthecoop;
It’s going to interesting to see how the long-term contracts for young players will work out. Wander Franco, Michael Harris II, Matt Olson, Ronald Acuna Jr. Fernando Tatis Jr., etc.
The law of averages says some franchises are going to get burned….badly.
P.S. Notice how FO’s are smart enough not to give those out to young Pitchers. A guy wakes up with a sore arm in year 2 or 3 and Chris Davis’ contract doesn’t look so bad.
rememberthecoop
Yep,,pitchers would be much riskier of course. And we are already seeing that the Tatis extension is questionable, to say the least. In addition to the surgery, we don’t know how long he had been cheating.
Cmurphy
Tatis injury was reckless. Crap like those motorcycle accidents, read plural, should penalize him, not the Padres, in the wallet.
Thank_God_Im_Not_Tim_Dierkes
They did, he just lost his endorsement with Adidas, Most contracts don’t pay a player when het gets injured due to reckless or unsafe behavior.
css 2
Matt Olson will be 29 by next season, I wouldn’t lump him in with the others you listed.
Ted
Why is Matt Olson on that list?
Samuel
Good points.
CaptainJudge99
Ok Samurai.
mj-2
This is not how you do a contract like this.
First off they gave him $20 more than Acuna for the same time frame. That’s already mistake number one because he’s not been nearly as good as Acuna his rookie season.
Then they took it a step further and tacked on a player option for 5/$90 mil. So if it backfires and he tanks there’s another $90 mil lost.
Then they went full crazy and chipped in a no trade clause
Lmao at this contract. For everyone trying to emulate the Braves this is how you don’t do it.
Bruin1012
It’s a good contract every contract needs to be judged on its own. Based on what I see it’s a solid contract and it was more then just that for the Mariners and there fans. It makes the statement that the team is willing to invest in the right players in the future. It’s not a signing competition the Mariners did good in a lot of ways today.
flamingbagofpoop
Not been nearly as good? Acuna was better, but I don’t think it’s accurate to say it’s not close.
JRod – 4.59 fWAR /600pa |
Acuna – 5.05 fWAR/500 pa |
braves2
michael harris has been more productive in a shorter period of time, also skipped AAA and is making a fraction of what Julio just signed for. 8 yrs/75 if his offense falls off his defense alone is worth the 5-10mil /year they pay him, plus he has speed.
if the Braves contracts dont work out, yea thoss millions will hamper the team to some degree but not like this deal, or tatis’, these contracts are not only stupid, but why in the world would the Ms not bring a smaller, Acuna like contract to begin the talks? hell Braves offered albies 7/37 mil and he accepted!
Dorothy_Mantooth
Julio Rodriguez is a generational talent. Unless he gets hurt, he’s the closest thing to a can’t miss prospect in baseball that we’ve seen in a long time. Is there risk in this deal? Of course there is. But if Julio stays the course and continues to improve, this will be the best contract in baseball; even better than the Acuna deal. IMO, this was a brilliant move by the Seattle FO. Another great season next year from Rodriguez would have increased the total value of a similar deal next year by $50M and it would have kept getting larger and larger the more they waited. The real question is: did Rodriguez potentially leave $100M on the table by signing so early? His last couple arbitration years could bring him $45M-$50M and the first year of free agency probably would have him in the $40M/yr range if he continues to be an offensive monster. You can’t blame Rodriguez for securing his financial future at age 21, but if all goes according to plan, Seattle may have just signed one of the best value (long-term) contracts the league has ever seen.
Dorothy_Mantooth
It’s inexcusable that the Red Sox didn’t do something similar with Raffy Devers. This is the way of the future in MLB. Perhaps Boston will lock up Marcelo Mayer to a similarly structured deal once he makes it to MLB and has his first special season. Mayer will never be Julio Rodriguez good but he has a chance to be in the Trea Turner realm at SS.
oi0ewt98er
‘Generational talent’. The latest most misused phrase in sports- especially baseball.
Thank_God_Im_Not_Tim_Dierkes
A baseball simulation company ran 15 career simulations on Julio based on what he’s done to date and in 11 of those seasons he’s inner-circle HOF with Willie Mays type numbers. He already had a 40% chance of making the HOF by the All-Star break. Anything criticizing this deal is by someone who doesn’t understand the character and personality of Julio. He signs autographs, takes pictures with fans, and gives away merchandise to strangers on the street when he gets a day off. He is the future face of baseball and is already a household name for fans of the game. He’s not devious or manipulative, he is legitimately the person he shows himself to be everyday.
The Rays committed nearly as much to Franco with similar experience and with a franchise that refuses to spend competitively and nobody talked about the dollars or the implications of Franco becoming, well…. 2022 Wander. If Julio become good, but not great the Mariners owe him $15M x 8 years? To which point if he’s not good enough to exercise the option, he can deploy his own option for somewhere between $90M and $125M over 5 years. So maximum value is $245M over 13 seasons including 2022, but if he sucks or is only okay, he’s $210M over 13 years.
The Mariners essentially get 1 more year and are on the hook for $20M more than the Rays deal with Franco, but what is lost in this equation is that Franco signed with 6 more years of control, Seattle only has Julio for 5 more years after this season because he made the opening day roster. As for the extension option, if he’s good enough to earn it, the Mariners fans will have no problem with Julio making as much as $35M per season for 10 years, especially considering that means he was a top 5 MVP candidate four times or an MVP twice by age 27. What would a 10 year extension cover?
Well his initial deal covers ages 21 through 28, his extension at max would be $350M/10 years and cover ages 29 though 38 years old. Whatever his extension is worth is equal to todays contracts and is guaranteed to the Mariners almost a decade from now. To put that into modern terms, it would be like getting to sign Mike Trout’s extension for 2 years and $75M less, a decade after he signed it for similar production. Or if you compare with ten years ago the best contracts were $20-25M/season over 7-10 years.
How good would Trout’s deal look today if he was signed to a similar deal, because that’s what it’ll take to get $470M for Julio. Also realize that would be $470 over 18 years, while Trout is being paid $426M over 12 years across the backend of his career which is also going to deal with a nagging injury that can’t be cured. I’ll take 21-38 year old Julio for $470M over 29-40 year old Trout for $426M., especially considering the Mariners can opt out of 3/4 of that money if Julio doesn’t perform to the level they feel is worth that money!
User 2079935927
Lol
retire21
$450M?!
CaptainJudge99
Where are the Mariners getting all this $ now? The Sting Rays?
compassrose
All Rise 99
Root Sports was bought out by Seattle. Instead of signing a TV deal they just bought the Co. People saying the new ownership group wouldn’t spend money only say that because they didn’t make huge splashes in the FA market. They have a plan and are sticking with it. I bet there is another 1 or 2 signings this off season.
Glad they signed Julio long term. Was actually thinking yesterday they need to get this done. They basically have him signed for the rest of his career. He may have a few more good years but his best will be over. Might turn him into a DH after this contract. Would be great if he plays until early 40s or all with Seattle.
CaptainJudge99
@compassrose- it’s funny I was just watching the Mariners on Root Sports. I like the channel a lot. David Valle is a good guy. So the games will stay on Root sports network now? I would love to see the Yankees and Mariners In the ALCS again if that’s possible. The M’s are probably my 2nd favorite team in the American League, even though I don’t say it much. I like Julio Rodriguez, he’s definitely one of my favorite players. I hope he stays healthy, and is an All-Star for years to come. Good job Seattle! I wanted Luis Castillo on the Yankees for the last 3 years. Lol. Thanks for sharing all your thoughts. Hope to speak to you again some time.
marinersblue96
@AllRise99
The Mariners own 60% of Root sports which has really become a huge cash cow for them. They own the broadcast rights to both the Seattle Kraken and Portland Trailblazers. With the year round sports programing they now have only increases their potential revenue stream.
CaptainJudge99
@marinersblue96- It’s really nice to see the Mariners doing so well. I enjoy the commentary of their loyal fans. I hope the M’s will be a contender for years to come.
HeedFrodo
Upwards of that number
braves95 2
Robinson Cano: /blank stare
mdbaseball05
$450 through incentives. Over 14 years, that’s still only $32M per year depending on how it’s structured. That’s less than guys like Cole, Rendon, and others. HIs base salary would be $15M
Thank_God_Im_Not_Tim_Dierkes
That’s $470 over 18 years!
myaccount2
I doubt all $450 million will be paid out, but I’m extremely happy to have a budding superstar in Seattle long term who impacts both sides of the ball. At worst, it’s $210M to a gold glove-caliber CF. Given his determination and work ethic, I think he’ll ensure he’s worth his contract though. He has too much pride to mail it in.
Dipoto recently gave an interview in which he said Julio trained extremely hard defensively last offseason because he heard the doubters saying he was corner OF only. He asked Jerry if he thought he could play CF long term and Jerry said yes “but I don’t think you can win a triple crown.” Julio immediately grabbed a bat and hit the cages for hours.
flamingbagofpoop
Gold glove CFer?
@budselig6969
Yikes. Not sure this needs to become a thing
windycitykid89
And why doesn’t it need to “become a thing”?
@budselig6969
I forget money is a made up thing to most people. Rodriguez doesn’t have a full year of service in. Guys can get figured out. The team still has many years of control.
It doesn’t need to become the norm to lock up guys before they proven themselves. 1 good season doesn’t justify $200 mil. You are delusional
Thomas Walker
Why you so upset about this?
@budselig6969
I’m not upset like you think I am? I am being rational and am trying to understand why this would happen. Business wise it doesn’t make much sense. Then again Jerry Dipoto ruined the Angels with all of his bad deals. So it’s not unfathomable, just looks like bad business
dannycore
Wasn’t Jerry on record for not wanting to sign any of those crappy angels deals and it was more of a meddling owner thing?
JP8
In 4 years if he is even the same player… No progression. He will be one of the best bargains in the league. 14 years ago Arod was a few years into his 25mm a year deal which was groundbreaking. 14 years from now based on historical data, the top players will be getting 75 million a year.
myaccount2
Lmao BudSelig, Dipoto did not ruin the Angels, Moreno ruined them by forcing him to sign Pujols and Hamilton.
hiflew
Historical data? You are going on the assumption that salaries will ALWAYS rise. At some point there will be a stopping point and there will likely be an NHL-style drop off in salary.
Yeah if he becomes one of the best baseball players in history, then sure the contract is a bargain. But in the 99% chance that he doesn’t become a first ballot HOFer, it will be a HUGE overpay.
All you have to look at is Kyle Lewis. Rookie of the Year two years ago, pretty much an afterthought now. Cody Bellinger is another perfect example. 5 years ago, he would have gotten the same deal.
myaccount2
Kyle Lewis is built completely different and has an injury history. His ceiling was never close to Julio’s. The hope for Lewis was a LF/DH who could hit somewhere like the 5 hole. Julio is a 5-tool player already with the potential to be a 5-tool player for the next 10+ years. And if he’s not, the team option portion is declined and he maxes out at like $210M (which he’d get on the open market right now).
kripes-brewers
You only need to look as far as Yelich to see a guy who just loses it, even after 1MVP and another almost MVP season back to back. At least the Mariners aren’t a small or even mid-market team, although they aren’t New York or LA…. But still, pretty risky!
hiflew
14 years is a long time to develop an injury history.
mdbaseball05
I like how you just discount everything else with Yelich as if those two MVP seasons were his only good ones and then he just lost it all. For reference, Yelich came up when he was 21 years old as well and had the following WAR values:
2013: 1.6
2014: 3.8
2015: 3.6
2016: 4.9
2017: 3.7
2018: 7.3
2019: 7.0
2020: 0.5
2021: 1.2
2022: 2.2 so far
The Brewers are dumb because they followed the old way… pay a guy for what he did in the past, not for what he could do in the future… which is why Yelich will get $26M per year from his age 30 to age 36 season.
To compare, Julio in 2022 so far is worth 4.3 WAR.
At worst with this deal, he is a $15M player for the next 14 years… If he earns it, he makes even more. If he doesn’t, he’s the same amount teams give a #3 starter to eat innings all while teams like the Angels are paying Rendon $36M this year for that 45 games he played.
User 401527550
So you predicted Yelichs falloff when the brewers signed the extension? The Mariners will be paying around the same for Rodriguez in his 30-36 years but it’s ok because his rookie season is slightly better then yelich? I guess the new way ensures success later on because the player is only 21 now.
Poster formerly known as . . .
“So you predicted Yelichs falloff when the brewers signed the extension?”
I believe his point was that it wasn’t predictable — and that’s the point.
User 401527550
No he said the Brewers were dumb. That’s assuming everyone knew yelich would fall off so dramatically. No one saw that coming.
Poster formerly known as . . .
kripes-brewers just cited the case of Yelich’s performance dropping off after the contract was signed. It’s his post that I was referring to.
mdbaseball05 said the Brewers were dumb because they paid Yelich when he was too old, but he’s supportive of the deal for Julio.
The fact is, nobody knows with absolute certainty that Julio won’t also decline, either from injury or some other factor. The most honest thing anyone can say is that all long-term contracts are gambles.
mdbaseball05
I’m saying that in general, a players prime is generally in that 28-32 range with their most value from a financial standpoint are the 20-28 range when they are under team control at league minimum or ARB rates, and then production drops off pretty quickly after that from 32 on. And now, you have top prospects too coming up with success in the majors more consistently, so lower budget teams like the Rays are perfectly fine trading off their guys that get too expensive while remaining competitive.
So, the old way of thinking is that a guy would come up, have success in the majors and hit free agency around 29. Then, the team that wanted him through those prime years would have to pay them a ton to get those few years, knowing the last years of that contract were going to be awful after the fall-off. Plenty of examples… Pujols and Rendon signing with LAA, Yankees paying Cole and Stanton $30M + until they’re each 37, Miggy extending through age 42 at $30M per year (he’s been worth negative WAR every year since 2017), and even the Mariners extending Felix.
So, the difference with this is that the Mariners are signing him for ages 21-35… 11 of his young years compared to 3 of his past prime years. And, this is the new trend, and I love it. This is why the Braves are able to be who they are… they have Acuna and Riley locked down for a combined salary that’s less than what they Angels are paying Rendon alone. Top prospects that teams like the Yankees would just wait for are now signing early and long term and for cheaper rates, which allows them to compete every year.
For Yelich, I didn’t think he would fall off that early, but yes, I would have expected him to fall-off after age 32 or so, which is why I said paying him $26M per year from age 32 to 37 was dumb. The Brewers are more baffling since they traded the best closer in the game while leading the division. Just weird.
But in general, yes. I would much rather give JRod $15M per year and bet on him being worth it through his ages 21-35 years than give someone like Rendon or Cole $36M per year and hope they maintain that value from ages 32-37. Same with all of those long term deals… Acuna, Riley, Franco, etc. All are well worth the risk in my opinion. With Yelich, I would have preferred to give him more over a shorter term to minimize risk as well. If he doesn’t come back to form, he is $26M per year for the next 7 years of that deal.
$15M is what teams pay a number #3 starter for eating innings.
Stevil
Do you think the team hasn’t looked at every pitch he’s seen (in sequence and how he reacted), every imaginable statistic, every analytical angle and projection–some of which aren’t even available to the public?
I assure you they have. Teams don’t wing it with 200+ million deals. They’re not looking at one good season, they’re looking at a number of factors.
Poster formerly known as . . .
mdbaseball05, I understand your argument and I’m not saying you’re wrong. I’m just pointing out the obvious caveat that there’s always risk in betting on an athlete. I’d have waited until he had more than 108 ML games under his belt to place the bet, knowing that I’d have to pay more if he showed himself capable of adjusting to pitcher adjustments for a full season. That wouldn’t guarantee that he’d stay healthy; nothing could guarantee that. But it’d at least show me that he could make those adjustments and wasn’t relying entirely on tools.
I don’t think I’m saying anything that should be controversial. M’s fans should be well aware that there are no sure things. Once upon a time they took Dustin Ackley near the top of the draft, as the second overall pick if memory serves. He’d been heavily scouted of course, and he posted a 120 OPS+ in his rookie season. His ML career was over at age 28. He wasn’t gifted with the kind of tools Julio is showing, but he turned out to be much less than hoped for. I recall that Mike Zunino raked in college, but when he got to the majors he never hit for the kind of average he put up as an amateur. These guys are humans, not machines. It’s always a gamble, that’s all I’m saying.
As I said before, I hope Julio is all that and becomes a successful long-term star for the franchise. The fans deserve to have their patience rewarded. It’s a great fan base in a beautiful stadium.
Rsox
The NHL style drop off probably doesn’t happen. MLB generates far more revenue than the NHL and with massive tv and streaming deals are set for the foreseeable future. Part of what hurt the NHL aside from losing an entire season to a labor dispute, and then 8 years later losing almost half of another season to a labor dispute was the terrible tv deal they signed with NBC that buried them on various NBC news channels where no one was looking for Hockey. They at least hopefully for their sake fixed that with their new deal that puts them on ESPN and TNT multiple nights per week.
Rsox
The Brewers weren’t necessarily “dumb” for paying Yelich. He was coming off of back-to-back MVP caliber years. So he had certainly produced at high level since Joining the Brewers at that point. They could only pay him for what he had done and what they hope(d) he will do because the Marlins were the beneficiary of his “cheap” years
hiflew
But the age of the average baseball viewer keeps going up. I know because they are showing lots of life insurance and erectile dysfunction commercials during the games and very few commercials that teens and 20 somethings would be interested in.
Every year baseball loses more fans to the grim reaper than they gain from young people. So those viewership numbers will probably go down and end up settling just above the current NHL numbers. Things could obviously change, but those are the current trajectories. Now Rodriguez’s contract might be over long before that happens as well. But one never knows.
mdbaseball05
@Fink Ployed Yeah, no, I get your point for sure. Of course there is a risk when it comes to signing contracts… that’s always the case. Look at the Angels and their contracts with Trout and Rendon as the immediate examples of that.
To me, it comes down to risk vs reward I suppose. If Julio was some scrawny frame, then no, I probably don’t do it as those numbers could be a fluke. But with JRod, you’re talking about a 6’3″, 230 lb dude with plus speed that just went 20/20 in his rookie season and put up 81 homeruns in the Homerun Derby, all while he’s been hitting .286 since May.
So, knowing that, you have a couple of options. In the Mariners case, they gave him $15M per year.. .that puts him with the same guaranteed amounts as guys like Didi Gregorious, DJ LeMahieu, Chris Taylor, Jon Gray, and Matt Olson. Most teams don’t view that as a large amount that is crippling if they are gone and miss time.
The alternative is to wait a couple of years and see what happens. However, if he then succeeds and continues his current path, you just priced yourself out because now that guy is a $400M guaranteed player while also probably making more through ARB than you would have been paying him if you just gave him that $15M to begin with.
Look at Soto… he has no value other than hitting (albeit, a lot of hitting value), but he is 23 and making $17M through arbitration this year and has already turned down $440M. And yes, I know JRod isn’t Soto yet, it’s just a comparison, and a better one IMO. Soto is a DH in a coupe of years (negative value defensively every year in the bigs) compared to someone that plays plus CF with speed and power. In other words, not only is he potentially helping in his 3 or 4 ABs per game, but he’s also helping the pitching staff by his play in CF.
Does it have a chance to fail? Of course. But, at worst, he’s a $15M per year dud… the same amount they’d be paying Marco for his 2025 option. If it’s the opposite and he continues though… you’re looking at a steal of a deal that’s only paid higher if he reaches incentives, not guaranteed money.
Tcsbaseball
Dipoto is trash. He’s been the mariners gm for how long now? What have they won? Oh yea, nothing.
have you seen my baseball
Well I guess most of the leagues GM’s are trash by that standard. Give me a break. They’ve been in a rebuild pretty much from his second year. Looks like a pretty solid job to me.
Dumpster Divin Theo
Daryl Strawberry and Eric Davis say hi!
Dumpster Divin Theo
No, I think they’re just winging it here
Dumpster Divin Theo
Dipoto. Huh. What is he good for? Absolutely nothing. Say it again.
hoof hearted
Wasn’t Jerry that ruined the Angel’s; it was the owner Art, and he’s meddling in huge contracts.
Rsox
Injuries wrecked Davis. Darryl wrecked himself. Strawberry had a good year in ’91 but unfortunately quickly discovered there are lots of coke dealers in LA.
drtymike0509
I agree salaries wont and cant continue to rise, even with no salary cap, based on younger fans tuning out, illegal streaming, WWIII, whatever it may be. This isn’t the NHL though and the 2 leagues based on their histories can’t really be compared. But with this team going decades without the playoffs it’s worth it to the fans(and team) to put the money on the table, and still have money to spend elsewhere on the team. It’s a huge risk but if ownership OKs it I don’t see it as a problem. Unless I’m dipoto and it’s my job on the line, that is. It goes both ways, Soto is an example the other way, going year to year, you never know when a random thing will derail your career. But if you’re in that tier of talent 2 years of arbitration gets you the money you need to “survive” you just gotta perform pre arbitration. IMO I’d try to go year to year like Soto then take the Nats up on the offer they gave, 2 years before free agency, which is around double what Julio got, if i remember that correctly. But I also don’t have that perspective, not being a player, either.
Pads Fans
MLB revenue is guaranteed to rise every year for the next 7. Salaries might not continue to rise after that, but I would not bet on it.
Tcsbaseball
@ have you, what did Dipoto win with the angels ? Again, nothing. Make any excuse you want, he’s a bad Gm.. he bled the angels of their farm system on bad trades, signed guys to bad contracts. Same with the mariners. They won’t win anything.
flamingbagofpoop
It’s funny when people have no actual rebuttal, so they just resort to, “you mad bro?”
The idea that people share their opinion in a comment section = they’re upset…real low IQ take there.
flamingbagofpoop
In 4 years, he would still be in arbitration. Do people just completely ignore existing team control being a thing with these contracts?
flamingbagofpoop
But he’s not on the open market…
flamingbagofpoop
Yeah, I don’t get this. I like the M’s and JRod and hope he’s awesome for them, but people just refuse to acknowledge the risk and that players don’t always improve.
flamingbagofpoop
They were dumb for extending Yelich because they already had him under control.
Thank_God_Im_Not_Tim_Dierkes
Look at it this way, if they wait until it’s a sure thing, let’s say in two years, than he’ll have three years of control and the going rate for a very good young player entering free agency at 26 years old is $300M for 10 years. His arb years going year by year based on Mookie Betts, is around $60M over three years. So if they are going to pay him $60M over his 5 control years, then why not get three free agent years for only $20M/season as well? Again, we should also remember that Franco signed with the same amount of experience a guaranteed $182M deal over 11 seasons.
The difference is that the Mariners could hold a $150M payroll and Julio will never make more than 10% of the payroll until he’s almost 30 years old. Teams take on a bad deal like Suarez with Winker for nearly the same annual money as what they’ll be gambling on a generational talent at 21 years old. Remember they also didn’t have to dump the farm system for him like the Padres did for Soto. So they’re playing with house money. Another way to think of it would be to consider the Orioles just paid Matt Holliday’s kid $10Mish to find out if he’s even good enough to produce at the minor league level.
The Mariners signed Julio for a fraction of a fraction of that money and even if he’s not “generationally” good, he’s still going to make something for his arb years, let’s say $25M? That’s $5M, $8M, and $12M or about what Winker and Haniger have been worth despite injuries, less tools, and Julio is already chasing their stats after 1/2 a season. Figure Julio is good but not great, he’ll at least get $30M over 3 years, which means unless he has to retire because of injury, he’s guaranteed 1/2 of what he signed for ($120M over 8 years) just for being worth around 15 WAR through his arb years. He’s already worth 4 WAR. That just takes 11 WAR over 5 years.
I think this is about as safe a deal as you can make without crippling the franchise. Even Ichiro says Julio’s more polished and hardworking than he was at his age. When Ichiro respects your work ethic, that’s legitimate focus and drive. Those guys will themselves to greatness. I remember Trout being the only one on draft day to go to the MLB studios and having to wait for almost the whole 1st round to get selected, it was painful, but my takeaway was his focus and his belief in himself. I see the same thing in Julio. I truly believe that Julio will max out this contract.
Thank_God_Im_Not_Tim_Dierkes
Not the same thing, Julio is elite power and speed, things Yelich never had and Christian lost it closer to 30 years old which is where there guaranteed falls off. If Julio triggers the extension, it’s $90M over 5 years compared to the crazy amount of money Yelich just signed for a decade.
Thank_God_Im_Not_Tim_Dierkes
The Mariners will be paying $18M/year, not $26M/year and that’s a decade from now when money will be worth less, so that’ll be like paying $12M/year today. While guys currently are getting $30M+ for those seasons will make $40M/year to be a old underperforming ex-All-Star.
Thank_God_Im_Not_Tim_Dierkes
Zunino had contact and strikeout issues in college, Ackley had shoulder issues when he was at North Carolina and never had a strong arm or power, he was way overrated.
Thank_God_Im_Not_Tim_Dierkes
Thank you for a trash comment. I have issues with some things Dipoto does, but he’s probably the most talented GM in the game, building farm systems with late 1st round draft picks, international signings, player development, and gutsy trades. It takes 5 years to rebuild a team, he took two years to make a run at the playoffs and then rebuilt the team in under three years, as they have missed the playoffs by a handful of games in 2020 and 2021. Now are heavily favored to make the playoffs in 2022 with by far the easiest schedule left, having at least 10 less games against over .500 teams compared with every other AL team in the playoff picture.
Thank_God_Im_Not_Tim_Dierkes
Julio doesn’t do cocaine. Just saying!
Thank_God_Im_Not_Tim_Dierkes
Dude he was doing coke in the big apple, probably the one at Shea stadium!
User 2079935927
No he wasn’t on record for any of the Angels signings. Sorry to disappoint you. Btw Seattle will have to pay more to have players play in Seattle.
Sean The Trucker
“The most honest thing anyone can say is that all long-term contracts are gambles”.
This…. Just this.
Ronk325
Smart move for the Mariners. JRod is going to be a top 10 player for years to come and would have been considerably more expensive down the line
CaptainJudge99
Yes if he doesn’t get ringworm lst!
rememberthecoop
I think he will too, but we don’t know that for sure. He could get hurt, caught cheating, or simply get fat & lazy. All the risk is on the team.
Ronk325
The AAV is only $15MM so it’s an absolute bargain even if he misses some time with injuries. I’d say JRod is risking a lot more in potential future earnings. He could have hit free agency as a 26 year old and looked for a $400MM+ contract
hiflew
He also could have regressed and been out of the league as a 26 year old. Stranger things have happened.
Ronk325
That can be said about any player. You have to take risks at times if you want to succeed. JRod is the exact type of player you take that risk with
hiflew
Calculated risks are necessary, not just any risks. It is a risk to go sky diving. It is also a risk to jump out of airplane into the ocean with no parachute. One of those risks is not like the other.
Ronk325
Correct, and this extension falls under the calculated risk category. The Mariners now have a superstar under contract dirt cheap through his prime
flamingbagofpoop
Why do people act like AAV is an appropriate measure for a guy that was under team control for a long time? It’s a lazy argument.
dshires4
Because it’s even lazier to bring up team control when you don’t accept that his final years of arbitration would have been more expensive than the AAV of the long term deal.
Ronk325
AAV is quite literally the best way to measure a contract. That’s the number that counts against the luxury tax. As dshires4 pointed out, JRod would have probably been making well over $20MM a year during the the last couple years of his rookie deal. The Mariners are essentially giving him financial security and a solid pay raise now in order to get many additional years at a bargain. Also they would have only had five years of control beyond this year, not as long as you think. If they let JRod hit free agency as a 26 year old, the entire league would have been after him
Msfan
How much did they give Evan White?
jamerjac001
6 year/$24 million
taesamlee
6/24mil
hiflew
About $23 million too much.
Stevil
I know most fans think White’s deal was a waste, but he’s healthy now and getting the minor-league experience he bypassed in 2020 (and looked good this week).. That deal could still prove to be a good one for both team and player.
Joe It All
Congrats Mariners and Mariners fans. Not many teams are lucky enough to find another possible generational superstar after having one (Ken Griffey Jr) but you did and you’re about to lock him up. Win win for all baseball fans.
@budselig6969
Way too early to say those things.
YankeesBleacherCreature
FLoor of Mike Cameron and the ceiling of Griff. I think M’s fans will happy about that if he maintains health.
Dumpster Divin Theo
Crime dog?
Dumpster Divin Theo
Floor of Sixto Lexcano, ceiling of Jhonny Callison
rememberthecoop
No I believe he was referring to Ken Griffey, Jr not the Crime Dog
Rsox
Not that being the Crime Dog would be bad either
Mike LaValliere
He said possible. It’s not too early to call him a possible generational superstar. It’s very early yes, but barring injury, he sure looks like he’s headed that direction.
flamingbagofpoop
Ok, then everyone is a possible generational talent.
Astros2017&22Champs
He’s Ken Griffey Jr now? Lol
CaptainJudge99
Julio Rodríguez is now Ken Griffey J.r all of a sudden? Smh
Buzz Saw
Plus look at his strikeouts vs. games played. Doesn’t walk much either. People assume he will improve. Time will tell. Look how Corey Bellinger went from MVP to struggling to hit over the Mendoza line.
Rsox
Injuries have contributed greatly to Bellinger’s offensive struggles, plus some mishandling by the Dodgers. When Bellinger suffered a bad shoulder injury instead of keeping him at 1B where he doesn’t really have to dive or throw that often they moved him to the OF where diving and throwing are routine. I do believe failure to adjust mechanics on Bellinger’s part is also a big part of his problem
Pads Fans
Ken Griffey Jr’s rookie season – .264/.329/.420/.748 with a 108 OPS+ and a 3.3 WAR in 506 PA
Julio Rodriguez’s rookie season – .269/.328/.471/.799 with a 132 OPS+ and a 4.3 WAR in 458 PA so far
JRod is 2 years older than Jr. was when he came up to the big leagues, but his production is remarkably similar. Some would say better.
Thank_God_Im_Not_Tim_Dierkes
Neither do most 21 year old players, but most 21 year old players don’t max out the statcast numbers at his age either.
User 401527550
The Mariners found one right away with Rodriquez. They got another with Randy Johnson. Looks like they are trying to compensate for letting them all walk.
YankeesBleacherCreature
@Mets698622 Whatever fits your narrative as if business models and objectives never change.
Rsox
Freddy Garcia, Carlos Guillen, and John Halama were big parts of the 2000-’01 teams that played in back-to-back ALCS’ and it could be argued ARod leaving was the best thing to happen for the 2001 team that currently holds the single season record for Wins
Rick Wilkins
Definitely one of the games most exciting young players. Great day to be an M’s fan! (I’m a Cubs fan, so it will probably be a mediocre day for me)
fuchholz
So often we see guys peak and fizzle out before even reaching free agency, this is a big move for Seattle. I wouldn’t do it
notnamed
bobby bonilla
Rsox
Hopefully it turns out better for them than the Tatis contract has for the Padres so far.
I’m not against it. I remember a time when star players played their whole careers with one team. Gives the fans someone to root for for years to come without having to speculate what team he’ll be playing for next in 6 years (beloeve me, i hate buying jerseys and then the player leaves)
Dumpster Divin Theo
You shall beloaved- per your last wish. Rye or pumpernickel?
Rsox
Rye, though i do enjoy a good Sourdough from time to time
Fred Park
Baseball salaries are insane.
I am 85 years old, and have watched the entire unionization of players and the escalation of TV and other entertainment contracts.
Baseball as a sport is just a shell of what it used to be. Modern performances should not even be compared to those of yesteryear.
notnamed
it sucks more every year
Mike LaValliere
Cheers to your first 85 years sir. I’m jealous of all the baseball you got to see over the years. I still love baseball. My absolute favorite thing in the world, but the game has changed, and for the most part, the changes have been pretty crappy.
mils100
I would agree that they are insane. But the money in baseball and all sports is crazy now. MLB teams now rake in 100 million/year on tv rights alone. the sport generates bilions in revenue. The issue really is sports as a business is just way too big. But that is how it is.
Either the money goes to the owners’ pockets or to the players. Sports is a cash-cow business now. I’d rather a player get it than an owner.
Animalize
@Fred: Really, 85??!
Be prepared for numerous nasty replies from arrogant, closed-minded, self-important age-bigots who have been brainwashed by years of the soul-clouding, sport-killing half-nonsense that is sabremetrics.
gbs42
Animalize,
The only nasty reply so far has been yours, which is full of insults.
Animalize
@gbs: Your imbecilic reply doubles as irrelevant.
And also, pi** off.
gbs42
What did I say that was imbecilic? You told Fred to expect “nasty replies,” and then you described others as “arrogant, closed-minded, self-important age-bigots.” It seems you fulfilled your own expectations.
BmoreBallistics
Animalize…. Lol the prime example of why pro lifers turn into pro choice.
.
Gotta respect ones elders. We got your back Fred.
itsmeheyhi
Also those damn kids on your lawn.
CaptainJudge99
Or in your back yard.
Dumpster Divin Theo
Jah back yard. Fred Park a Playa.
gbs42
Fred,
MLB is a $10B industry. If the players don’t get paid, the owners keep all the revenues. I’m very happy about players forming a union, earning free agency so they can decide where they most want to play, and receiving salaries commensurate with their contributions to that $10B pot of money.
I agree modern performances should not even be compared to those of yesteryear. The stars of 75-100 years ago faced only the best white American players. Modern players face the best competition in the world, an increase in the talent pool that overwhelms the increase in the number of teams and makes their performances significantly more challenging.
Animalize
@gbs: Also irrelevant. Do you not have the slightest idea about what a “point” is, and about staying on it??!
gbs42
@Animalize. I do know what a “point” is, and I did stay on it. Two of them, in fact.
Fred said:
1. “Baseball salaries are insane.” I replied by laying out some reasons salaries have grown so much in his 85 years.
2. “Modern performances should not even be compared to those of yesteryear.” I replied by agreeing and laying out some reasons the two time periods are quite different.
I’d argue I stayed very on point. What about my comment is irrelevant in response to Fred’s post?
Sunday Lasagna
But every once in a while can a hitter take a few pitches so that a speedster can steal 2nd, and follow it up by hitting a ball on the ground to the right side to get him to 3B with one out so he score on a hit, a fly ball or another ball hit to the right side?…..and can the guy who is then at the plate not strike out.
Pads Fans
$12.5 industry this season. With the new TV deals that will be closer to $14 billion next season.
Samuel
Fred Park;
MLB.TV emailed me a survey to take a few days ago.
They were asking me (as they did all recipients) to rate their “Entertainment” value and approach.
OK, it’s a TV arm of MLB. But all professional sports have been entertainment first for decades now. Fans go on the Internet and post about players, managers, coaches and even owners personal lives, decisions and juicy gossip as if they know them. So like all entertainers / celebrities they are being paid as such.
It’s as difficult for people following the sporting aspects as is is for people following the musicianship, acting / directing / writing of other entertainment-type professions.
dlw0906
Yeah Fred Park lets bring back the reserve clause, flannel unis, and only allow Amwrican-born players too!
The talent-level and skill, and speed, and power of the modern players so far exceeds those of the past its laughable. Sure most of the greats of the past eras would probably be greats today but beyond that no way.
Sunday Lasagna
That’s what every next generation says…. I’d sure like to see a head to head “talent-level and skill, and speed, and power” matchup of Correa, Turner, Swanson, Lindor or any other SS of today vs Honus Wagner who played over 100 years ago…
gbs42
Wampum, one of the challenges in comparing players today vs. 100 years ago is what assumptions you’re making.
If you took a top-level shortstop of today and transported him back 100 years ago with all the training he’s had to date, he would dominate. If any of them was born 100 years ago, who knows how he would have developed?
If you transported Honus Wagner from then to now, he would struggle against today’s competition. If he was born in 1995, he might well have developed into an All-Star.
Always fun discussion, with no way to know the real answers.
User 1413108128
I say we just bring back manners.
JT19
Salaries are insane, but where should the money go? Baseball is a billion dollar industry, so are you suggesting that all that money should go back to the owners? Because the owners sure as hell are not going to give it back to the fans/community. Owners could get 100% of baseball revenue and they would still cry about “baseball not being profitable”.
.
Fred my man, who is the best you have ever seen in all your years watching the game?
Fred Park
TrumboJumbo, as far as players I have ever actually seen in person, it would be Harmon Killebrew. I grew up with Harmon and his cousin Jack Mordhorst.
Players I have watched at games, it would be Ken Griffery Junior.
After that, among guys I saw on TV or heard on radio, I would have to break it into pitchers and then position players.
But my favorites overall among these were Ted Williams, Joe diMaggio and Sandy Koufax.
gbs42
Fred, that’s a pretty stellar list of some all-time greats. I’m 35 years younger than you, and my favorite (not best) player I ever saw was Ozzie Smith.
.
I have heard a lot about Killebrew (KILLER). They say he hit bombs like no other….Had a few people say Joe D. was the best they ever saw as well. Apparently Joe had all 5 tools and did it all…Who would you take Koufax or The Ryan Express in their prime?
Fred Park
gbs42, yes.
And this is why I seldom choose my favorite players: In my haste I overlook somebody like Ozzie Smith, who was just flat-out great.
I answered some questions here today that I usually avoid, for just that reason. There were just a whole lot of great players.
And there are still lots of great ones.
The game has changed, but as the old Humanists said hundreds of years ago, human nature does not change.
There were always flakes. Even the great ones had “dirty faces”, so to speak.
Babe Ruth is an example of that. And diMaggio was no saint.
.
Double X could play all 9 positions they say….He could absolutely fly as well…Ted Williams says some great things about him and on his HOF page there is some great stuff on the guy. Some of Foxxs’ stats are otherworldly.
Fred Park
This is where it just gets too hard for me.
How could I choose between them?
.
Touche. Had the same question for my step dad the other day. We agreed that we would take them BOTH and that it might as well be a TIE.
Fred Park
gbs42, I should certainly also have cited Ernie Banks and Henry Aaron, both of whom I saw play in 1955.
I didn’t realize at the time just how good they were. But it became obvious very soon thereafter.
That was my first Navy year, back at North Chicago.
Even a sailor could afford MLB games back then.
Yes, even a penniless kid from New Plymouth, Idaho.
1955 was the year Harmon Killebrew got discovered and went to the Senators, his cousin Jack played some for the old Boise Pilots, and me, I wisely joined the Navy,
.
Hey Fred I have heard similar things from my Gramps about Ernie and Henry Aaron. He told me Hank had the strongest hands and wrists he had ever seen. And I fondly recall seeing Ernie vs The Mick in the old Home Run Derby shows. I saw you mention Chicago Fred, you ever around 16inch Softball out there?
Fred Park
No, TrumboJumbo, I didn’t play anymore after 1954.
But I understand that to be just an oversize softball.
Fred Park
TrumboJumbo, I wasn’t interested in stuff like that.
I seem to remember guys calling it mushball.
Us Navy guys took a superior attitude like young guys will, and we used to laugh at a lot of things and called it all “high school s***”.
.
Haha Yes definitely an oversized softball. It’s pretty big out there and I have a lot of family from the area that was in and around the game back then. I’m guessing you merely passed through Chicago on your tour of duty.
.
How is Plymouth ID lookin these days Fred? I’m looking to get out of East Los Angeles CA soon and ID isn’t sounding too bad at the moment.
Fred Park
New Plymouth pretty much died when the Interstate bypassed it back in the 60s.
But if you wanted a quiet life, and had a source of income, it would be all right.
Of course all the fame and notoriety nowadads is up north farther.
.
Fame and Notoriety? The very 2 things I would love to avoid my good man. I will look further/deeper into Idaho and all it’s potato goodness. Appreciate your wisdom and insight. Talk soon!
Fred Park
Trumbo, I went to a Navy school there and learned all about radar and such stuff to aim the shipboard guns.
Computers were nothing like they are how.
They were mechanical/electrical contrivances that worked out fire control situations.
Primitive.
.
That’s very cool stuff. Thinking about enlisting in the big army myself. I know you were a navy man. How many years did you put in if you don’t mind me asking? You were not in Korea were you?
Fred Park
Trumbo, I was never physically in Korea until much much later.
But I am a Korean War veteran because my ship sailed into dangerous waters around there starting in 1956.
They gave us a China Service medal for that.
I only served 4 years and then used my GI benefits to get through college.
On another note, there are some quiet areas in Oregon you might like better than Idaho.
I live in Donald, Oregon, and I consider it the best place on earth.
gbs42
Fred, my family and I lived in Boise for two years about a decade ago and absolutely loved it.
Fred Park
gbs42, I could probably get used to Boise area again, myself.
Everything would seem different now, of course, than it did when I was young.
Probably calm and laid back, sort of like where I live now.
Where do you live now, if I may ask?
gbs42
Fred, we’re near Bloomington, IN, a nice place, but it’s not Boise.
Fred Park
gbs42, how did you get to following the Seattle Mariners?
Me, I was in the Portland, Oregon, metro area, and I was excited to have an MLB team nearby, so I’ve followed the Mariners from day one.
Samuel
Fred Park / TrumboJumbo;
Great conversation!
I’ve been watching MLB since the last 3 games of the 1955 World Series.
Trust me on this……
Players today are bigger, stronger, faster, and quicker. They throw the ball harder; hit it harder and further. They run faster and have better reflexes.
What is worse today are players individual Baseball IQ’s and instincts. Too many of the FO’s micro-manage. They turn the ballplayers into robots. Tell them where to stand on D, what pitches to look throw and look for, etc.
Two of my favorite teams are the Astros and Orioles – both having ties due to Mark Elias. As a retired computer person I was impressed reading that while both organizations may well have the most cutting edge analytics and video in MLB (along with the Dodgers. Rays, Brewers, Guardians. and possibly Giants) they have the coaches turn over information to the players that think will help them play better. But they don’t force it on them, allowing the players to determine if that information is something they can use, and how to go about incorporating it in their individual games. As such they’re getting those that believe it can improve their games to buy into the process and become a part of it. The players have to think, become engaged, and make adjustments….which they well may ask coaches help on. Watching those two teams play it’s obvious their players not programmed robots, but rather high baseball IQ guys that play smart baseball and know how to adjust to – and take advantage of – game situations. It’s a joy to watch those 2 teams play. And may I add – they’re very consistent in their play.
gbs42
Fred, I’m not a Mariners fan, I’m a Cardinals fan. I just enjoy the many ways one can follow the game, and the financial aspects are interesting to me, so when a 21-year-old signs this kind of deal, I find it fascinating.
I also enjoy the game’s history (I play vintage base ball) and writing about it, which I’ve done off and on for 20+ years as a side job at various web sites.
Fred Park
gbs42, I wondered if something like this might be true.
That makes sense.
Also, I was originally a Cardinals fan, along with the Brooklyn Dodgers.
Lots of baseball history in Missouri, but i won’t go on and on about that.
Sean The Trucker
Mr. Park…. My hats off to you sir. My grandpa (b1911) never got to see his team win a World Series (Cubs). I’m hoping I can see the Mariners win one.
The stories you must have about all the baseball you’ve seen….
Fred Park
Thank you, Sean The Trucker.
I guess I’ve told most of my stories on this blog over the last year or so.
My mother and father were born at the time your grandpa was.
I wish you all be best, Sir.
CravenMoorehead
Seattle is definitely on the rise. Great fan base that deserves to watch a winning team.
rememberthecoop
They can watch a winning team any time the Dodgers are on MLB Network.
CravenMoorehead
Lol breh
TheREALMetsFan22
I thought he was going to be a future Met. Too bad no ring for u.
gbs42
Thanks for the humorous comment.
CaptainJudge99
@TheREALMets- Yes, plenty of ringworm for you!
cland1494
It’s crazy how teams are giving out massive contracts to such young players nowadays. Clearly, they see the value on contracts increasing dramatically in the future, so it makes sense to lock up your young talent early on. But still, we never would have seen these types of deals 5 or 10 years ago, even for less money.
jjd002
I still remember when Kevin Brown signed for over $100 million. I couldn’t fathom how much money that was for a baseball player.
Kruk's Beer League
Don’t do it Julio. Ten years max dude. Secure two paydays.
hiflew
If you are getting $210 million, do you really need a second payday? That is enough money to ensure his great-great grandchildren could have lives of leisure. And if he blows through that much, he would probably blow through a second payday as well.
gbs42
hiflew, there wouldn’t be anything wrong with getting a second payday. The whole “it’s enough for his family forever” idea has merit, but the same can be said tenfold or more regarding the owners handing out the contract. Shouldn’t the same be said about them?
hiflew
Sure people think that. But it’s not just the owner vs the player. The owners running that business are also providing income for thousands of people in many different areas both with the club, affiliated with the club, and non affiliated businesses located near the stadium.
Whereas that player only has to concern himself with his family. I think I know who should have more money. But you feel free to continue to hope the player gets everything.
Kruk's Beer League
If he ends up being as good as they think he will be then yes. It’s very important for him to be paid what he’s worth. Which during the life of his career would be closer to $400-$500 than $200 million.
flamingbagofpoop
If he ends up being as good as they think…it won’t be $200 million?
notnamed
the salary of the last year of a 14 year deal, might buy a loaf of bread
hiflew
Or it could buy you a farm, a mill, a factory and a workforce in which you could make many loaves of bread.
Rumors2godsears
This has why written all over it… look at the Rays and Wander Franco… let him go to arbitration a few seasons and THEN extend him. You’re putting the horse before the carriage.
flamingbagofpoop
JRod would have likely made more in arb than Wander. He has more of those arb $ #s.
LordD99
Great young player. Hopefully he’ll still play hard. A setback couple cripple the franchise.
HalosHeavenJJ
Kid is an absolute stud. Good for the Mariners and their fans.
And although I’m sure he’ll have his share of big moments against us, getting to watch his career will be fun.
mils100
All of these deals are always going to favor the owners but I get it – I am not turning down 200 million + guaranteed either.. As good as we think he will be, it is also very possible he settles in as just a good player and never becomes elite either.
I kind of like the nba system of players getting to free agency quicker and contract lengths having a maximum. 14 years is pretty crazy. I do feel like you just have to forget about money now when watching sports because it’s all so absurd.
James A.
They already let one Rodriguez walk in 2002 they not going to let that happen again
toycannon
Exactly. imagine if that 2001 team had A-Rod, Griffen and/or the Big Unit.
Braves Butt-Head
The reason why AA is the best GM he signed Acuna, Riley, Harris and Ozzie for less total money than Julio Rodriguez could make
Selah Rick 2
Acuna and Olbies will be free agents when just entering their prime.
B-Strong
My question would be how is the AAV calculated for a contract that can vary that much? Is it just off the guaranteed money? Because if so, he’s literally just a 15m cap hit no matter what which is really good for Seattle.
chemfinancing
It’s like he taking a cut compared to what these other cats are getting
CaptainJudge99
The other Rodriguez used to put HGH in his Frosted Flakes, a big difference.
User 401527550
The other Rodriguez was twice the talent. Even bigger diffrence.
CaptainJudge99
@Mets698622- I wonder why?
Pads Fans
We will never know since ARod started using PED at 19.
ARC 2
You wonder why baseball tickets are so high priced? You give a rookie a 14 year deal worth $210 million. Name the top players from 14 years ago still playing today putting up all star nunmbers?
Steve Adams
Baseball tickets are priced the way they are because the market has established a willingness to pay for them. Every team in MLB is pulling in $65MM in national television rights this year — that’s before their local television deals, gate revenue, concession revenue, parking revenue, merchandise, adjacent real estate developments, corporate sponsorships, stadium naming rights, etc.
They don’t need ticket and concession prices to pay player salaries. They set ticket and concession prices because people will pay them, and the owners understandably aren’t interested in earning less than they could be just to enhance the fan experience.
Sunday Lasagna
The $313M annual revenue (2021 per statista) Mariners just guaranteed $210M with a contract that could net up to $470M to a player who doesn’t even have a full season under his belt yet the best offer the $482M annual revenue (2021 per statista) Yankees offered their star Aaron Judge was 213M guaranteed.
myaccount2
@wampum- Why are we ignoring the “could” part regarding the $470M? That “could earn $470 million” is pretty much only if he deserves it since there are team options. There’s only a $210 million guarantee.
Pads Fans
That $313M annual revenue for 2021 is $70 million more in 2022 because of new TV and streaming deals. It will be just over $400 million in 2023 for the same reason.
The Mariners just guaranteed a 21 year old JRod $15 million per season for 8 years starting next year or 3.75.% of their revenue. Anything above that is incentives and will have to be earned.
The Yankees offered Judge an extension that would have started in his age 31 yr season that was $213 million guaranteed over 7 seasons or $30.42 MM AAV.
Players start to decline at age 31. Players reach their peak at 26-30. Judge will be in the decline stage when any new deal begins. JRod won’t reach the start of his peak for 5 years.
Samuel
Ah-HA…..
So we’re back to gross revenue – payroll = money in the owners pockets.
It’s great that unlike any other business – legal and illegal – that MLB franchises have no other expenses.
As for “adjacent real estate developments” – the fact is that most MLB franchises don’t have that. I believe that Arte Moreno getting cut off at the knees trying to do that is why he’s selling the franchise. Not really worth owning a franchise without it.
Justanotherstrosfan
Jose Altuve
Albert Pulols
Miguel Cabrera
Justin Verlander
Would you like me to continue? All those listed above just made the 2022 all star team.
B-Strong
So just Verlander then. Because Altuve hasnt played 14yrs and both Miggy and Pujols were “legacy” allstars, as in theyre on their way out. They wouldnt have made it otherwise.
ARC 2
Miguel and Albert has not been good players the last 3 years. Only Verlander who missed a few seasons with arm injuries. Altuve has not been playing 14 years. So only 1 player worth top scale pay at 14 years.
mdbaseball05
Nothing to do with ticket pricing. If anything, these contracts are what let smaller teams compete by locking in talent relatively cheap. Your way of thinking is what’s getting teams like the Angels and Yankees in trouble… The Angels are paying Rendon $38M guaranteed now until he’s 36 years old, Yankees are paying Cole $36M per year for his 29-37 years, etc. The list goes on.
Yeah, the Mariners paying Julio $15M base from ages 21-35 is a bargain. If he earns it, he makes more. If not, he’s the same price as Marco’s 2025 option. It’s virtually nothing.
chemfinancing
Owi
ARC 2
How did the Kyle Seager contract work out for Mariners?
nonchalanto
It worked out just fine thank you.
ARC 2
Fine? OK at best 242/320/24 homeruns per season. At the time it was the highest paid young 3B.
Chemo850
Terrible precedent some of these teams are setting. Padres did it and the contract looks like a dud already. Ray’s did it and there’s are concerns there as well. Mariners now looking for the trifecta. I’m not saying you shouldnt lock up young players, but 14 years and 200 guaranteed after 1 solid season? Geez.
myaccount2
There’s nothing in the rulebook forcing teams to pay their guys pre-arb so there is no precedent being set. If teams want to sign their young talent during controllable years, sure, but it’s not like it’s an open market bidding war for these guys.
flamingbagofpoop
Are you unaware of what precedent means? You literally explain that there is a precedent in the second part of your comment.
Chemo850
Great…another genius who failed to follow the logic ad then claims self intelligence. Each one of those teams set a precedent within the contract’s point in time by signing a deal that had never been signed before based on money and time of service….the Mariners have now done the same by putting the first ever 20 year deal on the table for a guy who I can only imagine is twice your age, but still young….I know it’s hard, but try to keep up mate.
southi
This has the potential to be a VERY good contract for the Mariners, but I also think at the same time equally a chance to be a VERY bad contract for the Mariners.
YankeesBleacherCreature
So it’s a contract?
braves95 2
Michael Harris… at 8 times the co$t
gbs42
braves95 2, where is your “8 times the co$t” calculation coming from? Rodriguez is guaranteed 3x Harris, and the full value could grow to a little over 5x, all over a six-year longer period, or more, depending on the details.
j_butte
Probably meant 1/8 the cost. Braves are looking like a model organization again.
mdbaseball05
Paying guys early is the best new trend I’ve seen, and I love it. This is an amazing deal for the Mariners and Julio. When you break it down, $210M guaranteed over 14 years makes him a player at a base of $15M per year. He earns more than that if he if plays well and reaches the incentive points. That means the Mariners will never have a situation like the Angels where they have Trout and Rendon on IL all year while paying $70M for the two of them to do so. And, $15M is the same amount Marco would get for his 2025 option year. So, he is paid Marco money as a base, and if he dominates and plays well, he earns a lot more. Win-win.
I love it for the Mariners. And, I love it for baseball. Julio now joins those like Acuna, Riley, and Franco in guys that are paid early. They are being paid in their best years (Julio will be paid from his age 21-35 season) where before, long term contracts had to be dealt out after their prime years… ala Gerrit Cole who is paid $36M per year for his age 29 through 37 years.
For anyone saying this is a terrible deal, you need to actually look at it. $15M is what teams give out for a number 3 pitcher that eats innings. That’s nothing for what he can actually give you. Low risk deal in my opinion.
dshires4
People in here complain just to complain. If the Mariners wait until he’s “deserving” it would cost them $450M in guarantees in a few years. Then the same people complaining today would Monday-morning-quarterback and go, “wHy DiDnT tHeY eXtEnD hIm YeArS aGo?”
This is a win-win of a deal. If he remains the player he is today, for the next decade(a 4 WAR player), then $15M AAV is a bargain. If he’s even better, then he gets paid like the generational talent and building block that he is and that the contract allows for.
flamingbagofpoop
Stop ignoring that he was already under team control when you try to evaluate a contract as, “15m AAV is a bargain”.
sss847
its a football contract!
will be interesting to see if this is a one-off or a new trend within baseball.
you see NFL players trying to go the other way with this (deshaun watson’s fully guaranteed deal) while NFL execs are predictably resistant to the idea of having fully guaranteed deals.
in baseball, full guarantees are the norm. it would be crazy to see contracts go the other way.
sufferforsnakes
Insanity.
Yanks2
You’d think other teams would learn not to do this after what just transpired with Fernando Tatis Jr
dshires4
You’d think other teams would learn to do this after the massive bargains the Braves got for Albies and Acuña is the counter argument.
Yanks2
Signing a player with one year of MLB service time for 14 years is a terribly risky investment
Poster formerly known as . . .
I don’t know if Acuna is a good example to support that argument. He’s already missed 153 days to injuries and his 118 wRC+ this year ranks 64th among qualified players and his 2.0 fWAR ranks him in the 72nd tier.
Poster formerly known as . . .
Albies is on the IL with a foot injury and has accumulated only 1.0 fWAR this year.
flamingbagofpoop
…it’s not a counter argument because the Braves got those players for significantly less money.
gbs42
There are 13 more seasons for Tatis’ deal to work out well.
Yanks2
Yes but the guy is already a cheater and his career means nothing now. Just took less time to figure out why he was so good compared to the likes of Cano, Braun, etc
User 401527550
Did you ask the Yankees to return their rings from the nineties because of ped use?
Yanks2
Haha I’m not one of the obnoxious “27 WS Championship” Yankee fans. I’m a Yankee fan that has even said the Astros’ tainted WS is no less or more better than Yankees winning in 09 because Melky, Cano, A Rod and who knows who else was probably on roids. The other aspect is I think it’s unfair to have such a high payroll because teams like the Dodgers and Yankees will never be competing against teams like the Pirates or Reds because they’re so different
User 1413108128
That’s funny, I don’t recall a majority of the league banging on trash cans but I do seem to recall a whole lot of league wide PED use. Apples to oranges
User 401527550
Kudos to you if that’s your philosophy. I just get tired of teams fans that berate another team for cheating and their teams aren’t exactly clean. I have a lot of relatives that are Patriot fans that won’t shut up about the Astros when the Patriots kind of did the same thing.
MarlinsFanBase
I understand the need for smaller markets to get these types of deals done before the player hits open market, but it’s just too much risk for the team that could wreck a franchise for years if the y get it wrong…or the unexpected happens, but they still owe the money.
C Yards Jeff
Wow. 3rd young major upside DR player in the news here recently. Wander, Tatis, Wander some more and now Rodriguez. Studs, all 3. What’s in that island water down there, anyways? To good health fellas … and long careers.
MarlinsFanBase
@c Yards Jeff
Ask Fernando Tatis Sr. He knows his good buddy Angel Presinal very well. I imagine it’s whatever Angel Presinal put in Big Papi’s shakes all those years.
gbs42
MarlinsFanBase, $15M a year won’t wreck any franchise.
MarlinsFanBase
@gbs42
Agreed to a certain extent, but if the guy completely falls on his face, you don’t want to pay $15 million for a guy that performs like bench player or minimum wager.
To be clear, I’m not saying this will happen with Rodriguez, but none of us know the future to be able to know which player signed to one of these contracts will be a major fail.
TalkingBaseball
It’s Bob Nightengale…but he is now reporting that it is at least a 20 year deal.
Wow…
mobile.twitter.com/BNightengale/status/15632129685…
Poster formerly known as . . .
Without this extension, they already had six more years of team control. I guess the calculus comes down to something like this: are the savings from signing him to the extension now worth the risk that it’s a premature move that could end up being a financial disaster?
Unless the M’s front office has some compelling reason to believe that some big change to the CBA is in the offing, a change that’ll make player salaries go substantially higher, I don’t see the wisdom in doing this now. You’ve got him under team control for years. If you wait another year and he proves to be a generational talent with staying power and that boosts his price, you pay more; but when you’re talking about a contract of this length you should be able to structure it so it’s still doable without crushing the franchise’s finances.
I just don’t see the potential savings — potential being a key word — being worth the risk.
I understand that M’s fans will be thrilled, and I don’t fault them for that. Good luck. I hope it works out for the best. Just saying, I would’ve waited at least another year to make surer it was likely to be a good investment.
dshires4
This is very simple: if they waited another year and Julio progressed, they’d likely be looking at a $400M guarantee. As it stands, it’s $210M. There.
Poster formerly known as . . .
And if they make no deal at all, they’ve got him for six more years on the cheap, and meanwhile they can dedicate that money into funding a more complete team, particularly to insure a top-notch pitching staff, since pitchers are a more volatile commodity. If you have the best hitter in the world but not the pitching, you’ll win nothing. They found that out in Texas when they signed A-Rod. They finished in last place every year with him on the roster, even though he won the MVP award.
mdbaseball05
You do realize Arbitration is thing, right? Those numbers jump up super quickly. For reference, Juan Soto is in his second arbitration year and is making $17M from it, and that will jump the next two years as well before someone then has to pay him upwards of $40M per year for someone that is going to be a DH in a few years time since Soto has had negative defensive value every year in the majors.
$15M is cheap for a starting CF that is already a 20/20 player.
Your argument is all over the place though. If they wait, they would be paying him more in ARB and the future. This contract is what allows them to bring in more players around him. Especially if they now lock in some others like perhaps Kirby or Gilbert before they hit ARB at high values.
You mentioned A-Rod, and yeah, that crippled them because it was a $25M per year contract guaranteed, which was the highest at the time. THOSE deals are what cripple teams, much like you are seeing with the Angels paying Rendon $38M per year while he’s hurt or the Yankees paying Cole $36M per year until he’s 37 and Stanton roughly $30M until he’s 38.
If you need the modern success version of this Mariners’ idea… look at the Braves. They locked in Acuna at $17M until he’s 30 and Riley at $20M until he’s 36. Those deals from the Braves are what allows them to pay the same for both Acuna and Riley combined as the Angels are paying for Rendon alone. It’s a bargain, and that’s what allows you to have superstars long term for a discounted price in order to build around them.
ted lilly
They do have 5 years of Gilbert and 6 of Kirby left with Hancock on the way
Poster formerly known as . . .
And they hope they’ll stay healthy. But the unnatural act of throwing a baseball repetitively is supremely stressful. Soon after the Yankees extended Severino, he succumbed to injury, and after finally working his way back, he’s on the IL now, again.
Michael King was the best reliever on the Yankee relief staff and his elbow fractured. Now he might need TJ surgery after surgery to repair the fracture:
nypost.com/2022/08/16/yankees-michael-king-hoping-…
That’s what I meant by “volatile.”
Poster formerly known as . . .
Have you looked at the injury histories of Acuna and Albies and their current WAR values?
I’m not trying to rain on the M’s parade here; I’m just pointing out the obvious risks. Whether this deal will pay off, no one can say. But one can say with certainty that it is a gamble, as all long-term contracts are.
Tizzi60
I see you do not follow the Mariners much, they have three studs, signed through at least 23 and our fourth starter could be any teams #2 as a rookie! Mariners are getting a young And good core locked up! So now, our weakness is at 2nd base, but now even Frazier is hitting like his all star year. But hey, you be you and everyone knows your ignorance!
flamingbagofpoop
You think 1 year is going to double it? I guess if you believe that (I do not), then it makes sense to extend him now.
Caleb Wachtert
If Julio comes out and produces, say, 5 WAR next year then he is absolutely going to lock in something like $400mil guaranteed compared to $210mil. It would then no longer be a question of ‘Is this guy elite?’ It would be proven. The questions would be, ‘Will this guy stay healthy?’ and ‘Is he going to get appreciably better?’
The floor would have raised dramatically, and so too would have the guaranteed money.
I’m not saying I *like* the crazy salaries in baseball, but when Anthony Rendon gets $35mil/year, it’s hard not to like this deal.
gbs42
The Mariners would have only five more years of control since Rodriguez was on the Opening Day roster. And $15M per year won’t be “crushing the franchise’s finances.”
Poster formerly known as . . .
Spotrac shows him under control through 2028:
spotrac.com/mlb/seattle-mariners/julio-rodriguez-2…
Please reread what I wrote. I said the added cost if they wait a year won’t crush their finances if the contract is prudently structured. I wasn’t talking about this proposed contract crushing their finances.
oi0ewt98er
Signing anyone for more than 8 years is crazy, especially a player who just broke into MLB and would have been under team contract control for another half a decade and could still easily be figured out and fizzle out. Just insane.
mdbaseball05
Arbitration is a thing… That’s why Soto is making $17M this year at age 23 and that will just go up with his next two trips through it as well. It’s not like Julio is paid league minimum for those 7 years of control.
It’s a risk, sure. But a worthwhile one for sure. JRod is a 20/20 CFer worth 4.3 WAR in his rookie season. So, it’s give him Marco extension money for the next 14 years, or wait and suddenly you have to guarantee him $30M plus per year to retain him like is the case for Soto right now, a guy who just laughed at a $440M guaranteed offer at 23, and that’s someone who has had negative defensive WAR every year he’s been in the majors at a corner outfield spot. Great hitter, but he’s a DH long term.
JRod isn’t some guy with a small frame either, where this all might be a fluke year. He is a 6’3″, 230 lb guy that has plus speed in CF while also hitting 81 homeruns in the home run derby as well as a rookie.
flamingbagofpoop
Arbitration is a thing, but it’s 1 year at a time and thus significantly less risk. Also…not every player is going to get paid like Soto. Sure if JRod continues to produce he could be right there with him, but that’s not a certainty.
I think Soto is over rated, especially on here, but speed tends to decline quicker, so it’s likely that Soto is a safer bet to age well, even if he is a future DH. Especially with the better plate approach he has.
It’s interesting how much more bref likes him vs. fangraphs 4.3 v. 3.5
Caleb Wachtert
Soto’s got that ultra-sexy EYE skill to go with his extraordinary power. That’s hard for stat nerds (like me) to ignore, and harder still for us to view without a certain kind of passionate affection.
But what’s really interesting about Julio is that NOWHERE in his early development was speed considered one of his true, fundamental skills. He’s basically picked up stolen bases since 2021, so nobody in the M’s organization has been counting on him being a perennial 20/20 or 30/30 threat while he ascended the ranks (during which time they were whispering things like ‘best since Griffey’ or ‘future 40 homer threat’)
His speed has been a pleasant development, to be sure, but his calling card has always been his power and hitting.
In nurse follars
How long or how soon before buyer’s remorse kicks in and hand cuffs this franchise to a potentially epic bad deal? Most marriages don’t last long. Plain stupid.
Doral Silverthorn
Love identifying a team by its best player. It’s not a given anymore to roll into San Diego and there’s Tony Gwynn or Boston and there’s Yaz.
Bruin1012
Completely disagree with the naysayers on this one. I know quite of few Mariner fans and the complaint I heard coming from them was doesn’t matter how good the guy is the Mariners front office will just trade him as soon as he gets expensive. This is not only a good signing on an excellent player but it also signals the Mariners are willing to commit to the future. Great singin by the Mariners and Dipito in more ways then one.
flamingbagofpoop
What? They just gave Robbie Ray $115m. I think they’ve already shown they’ll pay people.
Caleb Wachtert
There’s a difference between different signing free agents and locking in homegrown stars.
Robbie Ray wasn’t a great contract, but his contract was pretty much exactly the cost of acquiring an above-average starter on the FA market. Julio Rodriguez, while no Mike Trout, will be a cornerstone player for the M’s as long as he’s healthy and productive. The M’s haven’t had that kind of roster stability since Ichiro was in his prime, and even he was a borderline ‘you can build around this guy’ kind of player.
Simonmike
Wow Seattle will regret this contract.
myaccount2
Doubt it. Least guarantee if it proves regrettable is still less than the Cano contract. Julio is way younger and more athletic than when Cano signed. He also plays a more premier position. If he sucks, it’s a $210M albatross, not a $450M albatross.
flamingbagofpoop
That’s a really low bar…
Caleb Wachtert
Actually….Robinson Cano has pretty much produced his contract.
In 2017 a Free Agent win was calculated to cost $10.5mil, and Cano signed in 2014, so let’s say $10mil per WAR. His contract was for $240mil (reduced for his PED suspension-related forfeiture).
By Fangraphs WAR he’s produced 22.3 WAR since signing that contract (including this year’s horrific -1.4). If he didn’t play at all next year, he’d have produced $223mil since signing the $240mil contract. Depending on precisely how much he’s forfeited for PED suspensions, I’d say he pretty well hit the bulls-eye in terms of FA value and he did it like you’d expect: loaded most of the value in the first 4-5 years, then tapered sharply downward.
philliesfan215
These long contracts are crazy to think about but they make so much sense for both sides. The team knows what they’ll be paying him regardless of how he turns out, and the player locks up an obscene amount of money that no matter how he turns out, secures his family for generations. Nobody loses.
All that being said, I think Mariners get a bargain here in the long run. Rodriguez is going to be special.
OofAndYikes
Pocket watching and simping for owners is really weird. Pay the talent you developed and see what happens.
flamingbagofpoop
Ah yes, anyone that realizes teams have budgets is simping for owners. Life must seem simple when you’re that ignorant.
Bobby smac9
So much for owners not making enough $. They’re more than willing to strike long term deals to lock up talent. I’m pretty sure no one is forcing them to throw this kind of cash at these players.
benhen77
Definitely not as team friendly as some of the other early extensions, but at first glance, seems fair for both player and team, with all the conditions attached to it.
BigmacNfrie
Did the Braves and AA just transform baseball?
YourDreamGM
No. Braves extend players for ridiculous team friendly deals. Other teams give out free agent money to players with years of team control.
TheStevilEmpire1
This extension is less daring than that given to Tatis. I believe it still favors the Mariners organization slightly, but it’s still fair to Rodriguez.
The worst case scenario is that he battles injuries or flames out. The ceiling is incredibly high. But if he becomes, let’s say, a middling to productive hitter like Andrew McCutchen, then he will at least be movable in case Seattle has to hit the eject button and rebuild in the next 7 years.
padam
Seems like a good deal for both. F-Rod locks in security and the Mariners are in control for the first portion of the deal (and remaining if they choose to do so). Plus the kid is incentivized to do well with the perks.
Creative, and hopefully successful. I see more teams doing what the Braves have been doing.
Sideline Redwine
Good to lock him up, but twenty years potentially??? Yikes.
myaccount2
Key word: potentially. It won’t be 20 seasons if he fizzles out. There are team options.
padam
And there’s also a player option if the team option isn’t picked up. And it’s guaranteed.
Slothcliff Hokum
The Mariners needed to lock up Julio for as long as possible, and as soon as possible. Period. Mission accomplished! Yes, it could end being a regrettable deal in the long run, but it sends a very strong message to long-suffering Seattle fans: the M’s are going for it, they’re all in.
rocky7
Either as you say this is a signal to Seattle fans that the M’s are “going for it” or have lost their minds…..while a nice player having a nice not spectacular season, Rodriguez has all of 108 ML games to his resume……..and your reward is a record braking contract without even proving that you can have the same season 2 seasons in a row?
YourDreamGM
M’s fans are clueless if the off-season additions and trade deadline didn’t convince them they are going for it. Lot of trades and money spent.
Slothcliff Hokum
Talking about franchise history and about the future more than just this season.
flamingbagofpoop
People constantly try to make these statements…no you don’t. Put a winning team on the field and the fans will show up. That’s what you need to do.
Slothcliff Hokum
No, you don’t. You obviously haven’t been a Mariners fan for 40 years, thus you probably don’t have an idea of how many times the front office has led fans to believe the team would be good next year… and we know what has tended to happen. For long-suffering M’s fans, it all looks like things are getting better! But for many there is always going to be an underlying sense of doubt. Look at it from that angle, and you might think of a tortured fan base waiting for miracles. At any rate, we are being given more reasons to believe than we’ve had in the last 20 years.
nstale
name one 10+ year contract that has worked out. I’ll wait.
rocky7
Agree…..108 game resume having a good not spectacular season, without proving he can do it again next season and the M’s decided to reward him with a 10+ year contract at ridiculous money.
Selah Rick 2
Sure has worked out for the Braves!
mdbaseball05
You’re viewing 10 year deals wrong… this isn’t the same. You are referring to 10 year deals signed when the player was already 28 or 29 and took them to age 38, which yes, those never work out because production tends to fall off after the age of 32. In those cases, it was a terrible bet and a terrible contract in the cases of Pujols, Miggy, and even Felix. All of those were signed at the end of the career though after age 28.
Julio is getting a contract at age 21 though while he is a 20/20 player, and the contract will pay a base of $15M per year. For comparison, Marco’s 2025 option is for $15M. Who else in the MLB makes $15M per year? Guys like Didi Gregorious, Jon Gray, DJ LeMahieu, and Chris Taylor. They didn’t guarantee him Rendon or Yelich or superstar money, so yeah, it’s a good deal..
You can’t compare this JRod contract to those that were signed for ages 28-38. Big difference between those and one covering ages 21-35. Your only comparisons are going to be those of Franco, Acuna, Riley, etc, not the likes of Pujols, Cole, Rendon, etc. They were all 8+ years older when they started those deals than what JRod is now.
oi0ewt98er
Production tends to fall off before 30.
Pads Fans
Production starts to fall of with the age 31 season for position players.
flamingbagofpoop
What? Players peak around 26, production starts to fall off after that. It falls off faster at 31.
rocky7
Concerning “these deals” comment…..True, however nobody even knows whether Julio can even be a 20/20 player next year let alone 3-4 years out….maybe he continues to develop and actually does become a “superstar” but calling him that right now, given his good but certainly not spectacular numbers, and locking him up for ridiculous money is physically a mistake.
marinersblue96
Arod’s first 10 year contract. He was able to turn that one into a 2nd 10year contract.
YourDreamGM
ARoid. Jeter. Something drastic would need to happen for Machado Harper not to provide surplus. Pujols financially was a win. Votto wasn’t bad.
padam
You can stop waiting. ARod. Numbers he put up were outstanding.
CalcetinesBlancos
I think this is a stupid risk for the Mariners.
rocky7
Guess they were jealous of all the press the Padres were getting with Tatis!
Camden453
I wonder what the MVP voting is. It’s extremely difficult to win the MVP or finish top 5-10
Pads Fans
Other than roiders, only 4 guys this century have been top 5 in MVP voting 4 times over an 8 year period. Trout, Miggy, Pujols, and Betts. If JRod can do that, he is worth every penny they pay him.
Camden453
Even if he has a monster MVP season in the last year Seattle won’t pick up the option
oi0ewt98er
Next poster who calls them the ‘Trashtros’ or refers to the ‘cheating’ in any way, there’s going to be a problem. Don’t do it. Mariners wouldn’t have won the World Series even if it weren’t for the ‘cheating’.
CalcetinesBlancos
What is this in response to?
oi0ewt98er
The fans jealous of the Astros fair success since in reality they ‘cheated’ no more than any other team and completely stopped cheating on top of that (while every other team pretends that they don’t cheat even though all the other MLB teams cheat to this day). Many incorrectly thought the Mariners would have won a World Series if not for the ‘cheating’.
chrisarreola
Those dang cheating trashtros! Still haven’t won a legitimate WS! Prob still cheating! Unlike all the other teams!
Joe It All
His comment isn’t in response to anything. He has been spamming a lot of the chats with his ignorant comment just looking for reactions out of people.
Pads Fans
Its his shtick. He got banned on his old account for just that type of garbage.
Deleted Userr
@Pads Fans like how you got banned on Koamalu? :}
itsmeheyhi
Cheating trashtros.
pinstripeblue
Wow! I dunno. Looks risky. I would wait at least one more full season before throwing in that much money.
Codeeg
This man has an amazing agent, and good on the mariners for working out such a creative contract.
rememberthecoop
Baseball has gone off the deep end. Giving 21 year-old kids a contract that could potentially pay a HALF BILLION dollars is just asking for trouble.
Caleb Wachtert
I begin my consideration from nearly this exact position. Baseball salaries are, indeed, ludicrously out of touch with reality–and it can be well argued that they are destroying the game from within.
But in the context of what’s going on in the MLB landscape, this deal is really quite understandable. Assuming he stays healthy and is productive in his youth to the >4 WAR tune during arb years, the team is ‘only’ really risking about $100mil-120mil in guaranteed money with the upside of keeping a generational player in town throughout his career.
No team has more experience with cultivating and losing generational talent than the M’s. Griffey, Big Unit and A-Rod were all generational guys and all left town. Keeping just one of them would have radically altered the franchise’s history, but they couldn’t hang on to any of them (the only one they totally screwed up on was Johnson. Griffey and A-Rod wanted out at all costs for whatever reason, but The Unit’s contract demands were totally reasonable and management horribly misplayed the situation).
So in the event Julio becomes one of those guys, the M’s have just guaranteed he’ll be part of the team. That’s something the M’s, specifically, have not managed. Felix Hernandez was close to that tier of player, but not quite there. Ichiro was that kind of player, and they kept him throughout his great years, but he was fully-formed when they got him.
This is kind of a big deal for this specific franchise.
j_butte
Hope it works out better than the Evan White deal.
DarkSide830
Not sure what the rush is to get these guys under contract.
YourDreamGM
Inflation
Joe It All
I’m having a hard time seeing where people think this is a foolish contract. Do the math and it’s $15 million a year. That’s peanuts compared to what a lot of players are being paid these days. Sure it’s a long contract and most long contracts never work out but 10 years from now the way these salaries escalate it’s more than likely that $15 million is going to be the kind of money that guys a little better than average will be making. This will be a bargain contract in the long run so the second guessing is pointless. The Mariners did great on this one.
YourDreamGM
As long as he is healthy and good. They already had him for 6 years for less than 100 million with the ability to not pay him if he gets hurt or busts. 210 million guaranteed is a lot. Best case he is amazing and you decide to pay him 350 million for his age 30s years.
Pads Fans
JRod would have been in Betts territory by the beginning of arbitration of he continued at his current production. If he improved, then higher. With inflation think $30 million in his third year of arb and then close to $40 million in FA at age 26.
They would have paid him much, much more for age 26-35 and it would have been guaranteed money, not incentive based.
flamingbagofpoop
A lot of players that sign as free agents?
Yeah, they would have paid him more if he was good. And paid him less if he’s not. It’s really crazy how that works…
BeforeMcCourt
What an awesome contract…. Props to both sides for doing something extremely creative. Wow
Caleb Wachtert
Both sides assumed quite a bit of risk, for sure, and both sides took an optimistic, good faith stance on the other. That’s rare to see in today’s world.
I’m tempted to call it ‘inspiring.’
David Barista
Only 8 years….. What a weak agent…. I thought lifetime contracts were the norm these days.
YourDreamGM
He got lifetime money and that’s all him and his agent cares about. If he is a elite player the M’s could pick up option and it will become a lifetime contract.
Caleb Wachtert
It’s 13 years since his client’s got a player option, right? His agent just got $210m guaranteed for a player with less than a year of service time, and it’s not like there are zero questions about Juliio’s skillset. He doesn’t have a Bondsian eye, and it’s not at all clear if he’ll be good defensively after the glow of youth is off.
Everyone involved needs to be pretty pleased with this deal, though the team assumed most of the downside. For Julio to be ‘upset’ by this deal, he’d have to be in argument for GOAT in MLB history by the time his career winds down.
It’s good to have self-confidence, but betting on that transpiring would have been totally ridiculous for any 21 year old player.
He’ll never have to worry about money again, and if he plays well, he won’t have to sign another contract until his late thirties (when most non-PEDers are already retiring). Think about the psychological impact of KNOWING your contract situation is dealt with for, effectively, the rest of your career? You could focus on just being the best you could be instead of being tempted to do PEDs or take unwarranted risks.
YourDreamGM
Great contract for Julio. I would have signed it. Not good for M’s. Sure they will save some money IF he is a all star every year. Not enough savings to take on the risk. Not close to being the worst extension ever but this one definitely favors the player. Braves know how to do great extensions.
UWPSUPERFAN77
YES! YES! YES!
Caleb Wachtert
At some point, if you think you’ve got a, let’s say 30% chance at the next Mike Trout or Ken Griffey Jr. or Albert Pujols, you have to roll the dice in accordance with the stats. That’s what this is: a calculated dice roll with one of the best young players to come along in the last decade.
It could definitely blow up in their faces to the tune of $200m for what might end up being a mediocre player. But if you’re going to lay bets on youth, this is almost as good as can be seen. Juan Soto’s bat is more predictably excellent because of his extraordinarily good eye, but it’s hard to find a player from recent years with a better career start at such a young age than Julio.
JackStrawb
The Mariners are basing this largely on his 2 years in the minors (his year in rookie league doesn’t count), and are assuming most of the risk here. If Rodriguez falters badly, they’re still on the hook for $210m, never mind the dice roll that’s 210 million for a player who has shown just a .328 OBP thus far. He also k’ed 3x as often as he walked during one of those minor league seasons, so he may never put the ball in play enough to be truly valuable.
Mutual options aren’t worth a damn, so you can toss that from the calculation. If he’s great, the team doesn’t get the benefit of that, only the right to pay an unlikely superstar (all rookies are unlikely superstars) close to half a billion dollars.
This seems both foolish and desperate. Did the Mariners think another good year in 2023 was going to drive the maximum price over half a billion?
Betting a large chunk of your future on the unlikely stardom of a 21 year old? Good luck with that, I guess.
Selah Rick 2
The Braves will be losing some of there players via free agency when there hitting there prime. Seattle made sure that wouldn’t happen with Julio.
JackStrawb
You appear to believe prime includes some of a player’s 30s, on average.
It doesn’t.
Joe S
Seems light, especially knowing Soto will get 500 million real soon. However, it would be hard to turn down a deal guaranteeing you 200 million dollars. Even after taxes only morons would not be able live nicely for the rest of your life.
YourDreamGM
If he is Soto level he will easily get that additional 300 million to give him 500.
flamingbagofpoop
Wait, we know soto will get $500m?
JackStrawb
@flaming…
It’s a horrifying thought. All Soto has done in his 5th season is shown he can slug under .500, and that he’s not really a .300 hitter.
Any reasonably smart GM will run some comps, namely guys with Soto’s BA and SLG, then add the number of walks that are missing from those comps. Do you really want to commit for 12-15 years and half a billion dollars to Bryce Harper plus 20 walks a year? Why would you?
As for all the wrongheaded comparisons, Soto is no Ted Williams. Williams was enormously valuable because, during segregated ball, he was wildly better than the average player. Soto, not quite as much. In his third through eighth seasons Williams’ accomplishments dwarf Soto’s. Check out the black ink on Williams’ BB-Ref page.
Caleb Wachtert
Julio Rodriguez’ most likely career path is one that goes something like Justin Upton, which would make this deal a very solid one for both sides.
But if he turns out to be KGJr with Bondsian durability, yeah, he left a few hundred million on the table. Then again, if he blows his knee out next week and never does better than a 120 OPS+ in perpetually injury-shortened seasons, the dude’s entire family is set for 3-4 generations even with poor money management skills.
Great deal for both the player and the team. The team is betting $200mil on him being healthy with the goodwill hope that he’ll be worth more than twice that so they can be the ones to pay it..
JackStrawb
Not to mention his 3 to 1 K to BB ratio in one of his minor league seasons.
This is an 8 year deal. The Mariners aren’t likely to exercise their other options. Getting 2 years of JR’s FA for $120m, total, and all the ad revenues that go with this before you cut him loose is actually the heart of this deal.
The rest is froth, really. Mutual options are the most meaningless options in existence, given the amount and duration simply assumes what the parties would arrive at if neither had any leverage—which they won’t, really.
As for being the beneficiaries of, say, 2 MVP awards for that 8/120m, are the Mariners really going to elect to pay 10/350m for a post-peak Rodriquez, from 29 through 38? It would be like signing Pujols for 12/350m instead of the 10/240m the Angels wasted on him. Who’s foolish enough to do that?
Poppin' Balls
I’m a big fan of incentive laden contracts and hope to see more of them in the future, in the MLB.
JackStrawb
@Poppin’ Balls Likewise, but this isn’t an incentive laden deal—it’s a gravy deal. If JR hits the major incentives during his first eight years w Seattle, he’ll surely get paid in FA what the Mariners are obliged to pay him if they pick up his options, meaning he’s not getting paid more for reaching certain marks. It’s only that the deal gives the Mariners the ‘right’ to pay him a fantastic amount of money for his post-peak seasons.
It’s not a bad deal from their point of view, though, since the Mariners effectively have an opt-out provision. They pay probably a small premium to get two FA years plus the rights, if JR has become an Ichiro-like icon playing Troutian ball with Seattle, to lock him up for the rest of his baseball life.
But it’s just an 8/120m deal, really. The M’s are probably about 10% to pick up their big option, and they’re betting JR is good enough to do better on the FA market than pick up his 5/90m player option after his age 28 season.
These things are always simpler than they look.
Bamboozling JR and his agent with huge numbers the Mariners are very, very unlikely to commit to, in order to lock up his first 2 FA years—the years teams really, really want, and for just $15m a year when he might be a 7 win player in each of 2028-29…, that’s what this deal is really all about.
hiflew
So the Padres have a team option on a Mariners contract? That seems interesting.
bryce1344
Kid must have a great singing voice to get that $15 million singing bonus
UWPSUPERFAN77
Granted, I do not follow Seattle as much as you guys! However, too much, for early in his seniority, for too many years, and too much money. One of these times these mega contracts are going to explode. Also, this is how you hold down costs, by playing the arbitration system. Better have good Brian Bosward disability insurance. Good luck, and I hope Seattle got it right! PS : Thank you for giving me the Brewers in 1970!.
Selah Rick 2
As of late it is an ongoing process. Ray’s with Franko. Braves with Acuna, Olbies and recently Harris.
put it in the books
Lot of money for a guy who has played half a season and has a sub .330 OBP.
86mets
“Meanwhile, Rodriguez’s five-year, $90MM player option (which only goes into effect if the Padres buy out the team option)”
So, are we already assuming that AJ Preller will trade for Rodriguez? Well, considering his history it’s not far fetched, LOL!
BenBenBen
Typo in the most recent update: “Rodriguez’s five-year, $90MM player option (which only goes into effect if the Padres buy out the team option)”
Unless this contract is so complicated that the Pads have some say in it…
rememberthecoop
You beat me to jt – was just going to write the same thing.
poolerh
“Meanwhile, Rodriguez’s five-year, $90MM player option (which only goes into effect if the Padres buy out the team option)”
Why would the Padres buy out Rodriguez’ option?
Caleb Wachtert
Presumably because they’ll have traded for him by then?
J leathal86
Don’t make a mistake like you did with Adam Jones
Pads Fans
Just a handful of guys that have had 4 MVP top 5s over an 8 season stretch this century. Trout, Miggy, Pujols, Betts, and one more that did it only because of steroids Only year Trout missed was 2021. Incredible!!
Is JRod HOF good? I hope so because those guys that have done it are all likely HOFers and we need more players to cheer for that are that good.
Caleb Wachtert
Bonds had the greatest eye since Ted Williams. Knock 20% of his XBH off each year and he’s still a first ballot HOFer. Steroids made him go from ‘automatic first balloter’ to ‘ZOMG is he better than Ruth?!?’ And EVERYONE who hit for power was doing steroids then.
The revisionist narrative on Bonds is truly mind-boggling. Sheeple gonna sheep for the shepherds, though.
JackStrawb
“Cheating is so cool! If you don’t agree, you’re a sheeple!”
Caleb Wachtert
There’s no possible way to read what I wrote as that, but given the state of America’s public education system I guess we shouldn’t be surprised.
Reese
Contract makes little sense to me, giving so much to someone who doesnt even have a full season and doesnt even have earth shattering numbers.
Pads Fans
Can you name the other rookies that have produced a 132 OPS+ and a 4.3 bWAR this century? The list is short so it shouldn’t take long.
JackStrawb
@Pads Fans Given statistical significance, the inexactitude of most stats, and the randomness of baseball, you’ll want to include players with smaller OPS+’s and lower bWARs. The list is much, much longer than you think.
Still, if you believe JR can stay in CF through his 20s, that’s a big help to him.
The key point is that this is really just 8/$120m. Mutual options don’t mean anything, and the premium the M’s are paying is JR’s retirement money, 5/90m for his age 29-33 seasons in case he disappoints, which will in some cases be covered by insurance they’re buying anyway. Even guys like Justin Upton—who was a LFer after age 24—beat that 5/90m money, with only two seasons more than 4 WAR and none over 5; no GGs, one MVP finish better than 17th.
Dag Gummit
It’s about production relative to age. Only 3 other 24-and-under players are in his realm of production (per FG):
Juan Soto (23): 3.3 fWAR
Gavin Lux (24): 3.3
Julio (25): 3.5
Andres Gimenez (23): 4.6
He’s 21 and a very, very similar player as the 28-year old Buxton (leaders in … except he also doesn’t have the injury history.
Buxton with 7 more years in age and his injury history has a 7-year, $100M contract.
The Mariners not only potentially get Today’s Buxton x2, but Today’s Buxton *AND* an additional 7 years of growth on Today’s Buxton.
A Buxton-like deal for a 21-year old with similar production today is an absolute steal. From there, it’s an additional Buxton-like deal base starting 7 years in the future with escalating incentives.
My take, at least.
Pads Fans
This is an 8 year/$120 million deal with options. Basically the team bought out two years of free agency for $15 million per season.
The team can opt after the 7th year to extend the deal for 8 or 10 years after that. If he is the superstar he appears to be now, the extension will be a bargain.
JRod can take his player option for 5/90 after the 8th year if the team chooses not to pick up his option. Unless he is a complete bust its doubtful he would do that.
The bottom line is its an 8/120 deal. Very similar to the Acuna deal.
JackStrawb
Why omit guys like Jose Reyes, 5.9 rWAR at age 23? I wouldn’t include 23 yos, but since you are, why omit these guys?
Your comparison to Buxton, whom the Twins were going to lose to FA, is completely inapt.
Camden453
Doesn’t Rodriguez’ camp realize the Mariners are never going to exercise the option?
Unless he’s a Hall of Fame level player, which is extremely rare, they’ll turn it down
LongTimeFan1
I’m not in favor of these high priced, premature contracts. to youngsters with little big league experience.. Fernando Tatis JR’s behavior is an example why you don’t hand out these sorts of deals to players barely into adulthood.
JackStrawb
@LongTimeFan1 What everyone’s missing is that this isn’t a long term contract. DiPoto approved paying a modest premium to lock up the most desirable 2 FA years of a potential superstar.
That’s it. Everything else is pretty much smoke.
Who really believes the Mariners are going to voluntarily pay JR 10/$350m for his age 29-38 seasons? The Angels, once they ate Trout’s age 27 and 28 seasons, would have loved to have given Trout away for his contract. The Dodgers now owe Betts about 10/$315m after his first two years with them, for 2023-2032, and would be delighted to give him away for nothing but his contract.
It’s 8/120m to make happy the player who may be central to the team’s fortunes, settling his arb money early, and buying out his age 27 and 28 seasons for the price of a 2 win corner OFer. That’s all this is.
Poster formerly known as . . .
I thought about what another centerfielder, Ken Griffey, Jr., meant to this franchise, so I ran a comparison on Fangraphs to see how they compared at age 21. You can do the same here:
fangraphs.com/players/julio-rodriguez/23697/compar…
They were comparable in ISO and BABIP. In the other measures, Griffey was better; but do your own comparison.
Pads Fans
Already did that. In their rookie seasons, a much better comparison since the player has no control over when they are called up, they are very similar.
JackStrawb
@Fink Ployd Griffey made the majors at 19, and succeeded. That’s astounding. It portends a significantly better career than the guy who does something comparable at 21, though JR still projects very well indeed. (Griffey was also a non-roider afawk in the roid era, making his power stats at 19 and after better than they looked.)
JR also weighs about 30 lbs more than Griffey did at that age. Griffey projected as a pure CFer for the next decade, while the Mariners played JR primarily in the corners in the minors. He’ll probably move back there, and would be there already if Kelenic hadn’t bombed out. That cuts JR’s value significantly.
Proudveteran
Good Contract for The Seattle Mariners and a bad contract for Julio Rodriquez. Why do I say that? Simply let’s just say it a $470m right now for 18 years…uh that is only about $26.1m AAV, he is going to be well worth more than that in a few years.
Poster formerly known as . . .
He’s set for life — several lifetimes — at age 21. That’s a lot of financial security for playing a game in which every player is one bad accident away from premature retirement.
LordD99
He’s already delivered more than $26.1 million in value this year alone. In August!
Ballplayers have egos. Once the concept of his new wealth settles in over the coming years, and as he sees other players making $50MM+ in a season in a few years (Scherzer’s already at $43.5MM today) with no hope of an increase on his side, you can end up with an unhappy player. My guess is if Rodriguez continues to progress and is an elite player, the two sides will probably end up renegotiating the back end of his deal.
oi0ewt98er
“Ballplayers have egos. Once the concept of his new wealth settles in over the coming years, and as he sees other players making $50MM+ in a season in a few years (Scherzer’s already at $43.5MM today) with no hope of an increase on his side, you can end up with an unhappy player. ”
Unless he’s a real Christian.
JackStrawb
@Proudveteran That ignores how JR is under team (and salary) control his first six years, so it’s not $470m for 18 years, it’s roughly 60m for 6 years assuming arb awards for comparable players, leaving 410m over 12 years to reach the 470m number.
Proudveteran
Yes, I understand that now. At the time I posted this I was not clear on the details. Year eight is a mutual agreement in which at that point all he would need to do is not agree, at that point they renegotiate or he can walk. So now it is a better contract.
Deadguy
#Whaneyouneedalawyertounderstandacontract
GabrielJames
Kind of crazy so much of the value of the contract is tied to the opinions of baseball writers. Definitely a fascinating contract structure.
l9ydodger
Mariners better hope he doesn’t turn into another Cody Bellinger. Bellinger’s first 3 years were spectacular! After his last 3 including this season he might be non tendered by the Dodgers.
JackStrawb
lgydodger Doesn’t matter too much. The Mariners can (and probably will) bail after their 8/$120m deal runs out.
If they get Bellinger’d it’ll sting, sure, but at $15m a year they’ll probably still get some value for that money. Even if JR subsides into 4th OFer-dom worth a win each during his 2 FA years the M’s own, it’s not the worst thing.
Bellinger is the catastrophic version of events. The number of guys who collapse like this is very small. The Dodgers should have sat him out in 2021, but in 2020 and 2022 he’s still been worth 1.5 WAR, each. For $15m that’s tolerable.
Sadler
I don’t know if I’d want to put so much faith in the hands of the sports writers.
Rosstradamus
I think we just found out how much a future HOF’er is worth at 21-years old! GO M’s!!!
User 2079935927
Yeah right. Not even 1full season and he’s a HOF. Lol
Ichirosasaki
Best contract in the history of baseball. Going to be the best player in mlb history.
Dodger Dogg
With his skillset, it’ll be fun to watch him develop. Good to see Ichiro inducted into the M’s HOF.
JackStrawb
@Dodger Dogg I wonder if he will in fact develop. Had a great minor league career, but that career is only 700 PA, to date. He also K’ed 3x as often as he BB’ed in one of those years, and his OBP today is just .328. That’s concerning, and limiting, if he can’t overcome it.
His BAbip is also running a little high, at .326. That may be normal for him, but at almost 230 lbs he’s not light. He’s not going to get faster next year, or the year after. If his stable BAbip is .300, his OBP is more naturally around .310. That’s actually bad.
We’ll see. The M’s saw him as a corner OFer in the minors. If he moves back to a corner, his value drops significantly.
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
This is months late, but in case this comes up again: The Mariners have wasted a tremendous amount of money. This guy has 5 years left, including 2 at minimum wages and 3 arb years. This would cost 1.5 million plus whatever he gets over arb, which may be 25-55 million. Let’s go with a little over 40 to make it simple and add the 1.5 to get roughly 45 million. They are wasting all this guaranteed money over 5 years just so they get the “right” to pay him a 37.5 million AAV over 2 years. Then, they have to pay him a huge amount that may be maybe 20% below market value. Still, they are basing this on some prospect rankings and 1 year of service. They should have gotten a much longer deal for 120 million. The author falsely claims this is 120 over 8 years, but it is over 7 years. If this were truly over 8 years or even 9, that would make some sense. However, the virtually guaranteed escalators get him to maybe 8/240 just due to his name brand already and maybe even 8/260. That’s 30-32.5 AAV. Sure, contracts will look bad in that many years, but Julio Rodriguez can also turn into Cody Bellinger and end up hitting .200/.250/.300. I kind of hope he does so teams decide not to set money on fire like this. The biggest concern is the cheap team control they are throwing away. Most fans will say this is an underpay since they don’t understand how pre-arb and arbitration salaries work. I have lost faith in humanity. This is possibly the worst contract extension in MLB history.
Selah Rick 2
You mean like paying Seager and Semien well past there production years. You lost me at you hope Julio Rodriguez doesn’t develop into a star. Your not a baseball fan!