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Landen Roupp

Giants Notes: Roupp, McDonald, Crawford

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Last month, Giants starter Landen Roupp suffered what appeared to be a season-ending bone bruise in his left knee. San Francisco never officially moved the right-hander to the 60-day injured list. They now find themselves in a playoff race thanks to the Mets’ recent eight-game losing streak, which leaves the door ajar for Roupp to make it back this year.

Roupp has thrown a couple bullpen sessions in recent days. Susan Slusser of The San Francisco Chronicle noted over the weekend that there’s a possibility for the second-year pitcher to come back in October if the Giants snag a playoff berth. That’d probably be in relief, as he hasn’t thrown in a game setting since August 20.

The Giants lost Carson Whisenhunt to a back strain a week after Roupp’s injury. That has left them without great options for the final two rotation spots behind Logan Webb, Justin Verlander and Robbie Ray. Righty Kai-Wei Teng hasn’t worked deep into games and carries a 6.41 ERA across seven appearances.

They’re operating without a fifth starter, which resulted in Tristan Beck kicking off a bullpen game tonight for a big matchup in Arizona. The Giants dropped half a game behind the Diamondbacks with last night’s loss in the series opener. They’re 2.5 games back of the Mets, who beat the Padres earlier this evening, pending the result of tonight’s game.

San Francisco made a move before tonight’s game, recalling righty Trevor McDonald from Triple-A Sacramento. Keaton Winn, who pitched two innings in relief of Teng yesterday, was optioned out. The 24-year-old McDonald gave up two runs in as many innings in his first MLB appearance of the season.

McDonald has occupied a spot on San Francisco’s 40-man roster since the 2023-24 offseason. The former 11th round pick had one day of major league service before tonight. The Giants called him up for the final game of the ’24 season, in which he tossed three scoreless innings. He had spent all of this season working from the rotation in Sacramento. McDonald had a decent 23% strikeout rate and got ground-balls at a 53% clip, but he struggled to a 5.31 ERA across 142 1/3 innings in the hitter-friendly Pacific Coast League.

There’s a less fortunate update on another of the organization’s pitching prospects. Former first-round pick Reggie Crawford underwent another shoulder surgery and will be out into the middle of next season, reports Alex Pavlovic of NBC Sports Bay Area. Crawford underwent his first labrum repair last September. The UCONN product was already out for the season but had recently begun throwing bullpen sessions.

Crawford, the #30 overall pick in 2022, has thrown 37 1/3 career innings in the minor leagues. He will be eligible for the Rule 5 draft this offseason if the Giants don’t add him to the 40-man roster. Another team could theoretically eye him as a Rule 5 target whom they could stash on the MLB injured list until he completes his rehab. That makes the 40-man decision an interesting one for San Francisco’s front office. Crawford has shown a triple-digit fastball and a plus or better breaking ball at his best, but he has very little pitching experience. He was primarily a first baseman in college and only threw eight innings for the Huskies. He underwent Tommy John surgery as a junior in addition to his pair of shoulder procedures.

Giants Notes: Rodriguez, Walker, Roupp, Eldridge

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The Giants placed closer Randy Rodríguez on the 15-day injured list, retroactive to August 23, with an elbow sprain. Keaton Winn was recalled from Triple-A Sacramento to take a spot on the active roster.

Manager Bob Melvin said Rodríguez is headed for a second opinion (via Alex Pavlovic of NBC Sports Bay Area). It’s not known if that means initial evaluation suggested he was facing significant injury or if that’s a merely an abundance of caution for any kind of elbow concern. Rodríguez missed around five weeks in the second half of last year with elbow inflammation. The Giants have dropped five games below .500 and are essentially playing out the string. There’s a decent chance this ends Rodríguez’s season even if there’s no significant ligament damage.

This has been a breakout year for the 25-year-old righty. Rodríguez earned an All-Star selection and carries a 1.78 earned run average through 50 appearances. He has fanned more than a third of opposing hitters and took over in the ninth inning after the Camilo Doval trade. Melvin said Ryan Walker will step into the closer role for the time being. Walker was the early-season closer and has picked up 11 saves, but he’s had an up-and-down year. He has been pitching well of late, turning in a 2.45 ERA with 16 strikeouts in 14 2/3 frames since the All-Star Break.

The Giants also provided an update on starter Landen Roupp, who went on the injured list last week. Testing has confirmed that the righty sustained a deep bone bruise in his right knee (relayed by John Shea of The San Francisco Standard). That comes with a month-long recovery timetable that’ll very likely end his season.

It’s nevertheless a relief as Roupp revealed he’d immediately feared a torn ACL when he stumbled on the mound and needed to be carted off the field at Petco Park. He finishes his second big league season with a 3.80 ERA over 22 starts and should have the inside track at an Opening Day rotation spot next year.

While there’s not a ton of intrigue for the final few weeks of San Francisco’s season, one question is whether top first base prospect Bryce Eldridge will get to Oracle Park. As part of a longer feature about the 20-year-old’s development, Susan Slusser of The San Francisco Chronicle writes that it’s “more likely” that Eldridge’s big league debut will wait until 2026. The ’23 first-round pick has hit well against older pitching at virtually every minor league stop. He’s holding his own in 49 Triple-A contests, batting .232/.303/.497 with 14 home runs in 208 plate appearances. Eldridge has fanned in 32% of his plate appearances at the top minor league level, though, including 31 strikeouts in 91 trips (34%) this month.

Exciting as it would be for the fanbase to get their first look at Eldridge, it’d make more sense to let him play out the year in Triple-A. Their season runs through September 21, only one week shorter than the MLB schedule. Eldridge would not be eligible for the Rule 5 draft. The Giants wouldn’t need to carry him on the 40-man roster throughout the offseason unless they call him up. That also means they wouldn’t burn a minor league option year to have Eldridge start next season back in Triple-A if he struggles during Spring Training.

Giants Select Joel Peguero

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The Giants announced a series of roster moves today, recalling outfielder Luis Matos and selecting right-hander Joel Peguero. In corresponding active roster moves, they have optioned outfielder Grant McCray and right-hander Kai-Wei Teng. Left-hander Erik Miller has been transferred to the 60-day injured list to open a 40-man spot.

Peguero, 28, makes it to the majors for the first time. It was a long journey. He originally signed with the Rays as an international amateur way back in 2016. Even then he was a bit on the old side, as most international amateurs sign when first eligible at 16 and have verbal deals well before that. That was Peguero’s age-19 season.

In the following decade, he spent many years with the Rays but eventually moved around to the Rockies, Nationals and Tigers without getting a major league call. He signed a minor league deal with the Giants coming into 2025.

He has thrown 42 1/3 Triple-A innings this year with a 5.10 earned run average. That’s obviously not a great number but it’s come in the hitter-friendly Pacific Coast League and Peguero has a .353 batting average on balls in play and 68.3% strand rate this year, both unfortunate numbers. He is averaging close to 100 miles per hour on his two fastballs while also throwing a cutter, slider and changeup around 90 mph. That arsenal has helped him strike out 24.1% of batters faced, though also with a 12% walk rate.

The Giants have fallen to 6.5 games back of a playoff spot, so they are surely leaning towards decisions that prioritize the future over this year. They sold at the deadline and can now use the remainder of the season to get looks at some other players. They can throw Peguero out there in front of big league hitters and see how they handle his fiery stuff. If he can get outs, perhaps he can earn a role on next year’s club.

Sending Teng down to the minors opens a job in the rotation. Manager Bob Melvin tells reporters, including Shayna Rubin of the San Francisco Chronicle, that Carson Whisenhunt will be coming up to start tomorrow’s game. However, Landen Roupp is also going on the injured list. It was reported yesterday that Roupp has a left knee sprain and is going on the IL.

Justin Verlander is starting today’s game, with Logan Webb and Robbie Ray scheduled for Saturday and Sunday. The Giants are off on Monday, so it’s theoretically possible that they go back to Verlander on Tuesday. They will need another starter at some point, however, as Tuesday’s game will be the first of nine in a row. Carson Seymour and Tristan Beck are currently working long relief roles and one of them could make a spot start, though the club also has a number of pitchers on optional assignment who could be recalled.

As for Miller, he landed on the 15-day IL in early July due to a mild sprain of the ulnar collateral ligament in his throwing elbow. He started a rehab assignment this month but the club informed reporters this week that a recent MRI showed more inflammation and that he’ll be shut down for another two weeks. Susan Slusser of the San Francisco Chronicle was among those who relayed that update.

Miller’s 60-day count is retroactive to his initial IL placement, so he’ll be eligible for reinstatement in early September. However, based on the most recent information, it seems like he’ll just be finishing his shutdown period at that time. Even if he’s declared healthy at that point, he would likely need a bit of time to ramp up and go on another rehab assignment.

Photo courtesy of Rick Scuteri, Imagn Images

Giants To Place Landen Roupp On Injured List With Knee Sprain

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The Giants are placing starter Landen Roupp on the 15-day injured list with a left knee sprain, manager Bob Melvin informed reporters (including Alex Pavlovic of NBC Sports Bay Area). The right-hander is flying back to San Francisco for an MRI that’ll provide a more specific diagnosis.

Roupp suffered the injury in the third inning of tonight’s start in San Diego (video via SF Giants on NBCS). Ramón Laureano hit a comeback line drive that struck Roupp in the right thigh. While the ball itself didn’t cause an injury, the pitcher slipped on the mound as he tried to avoid it, tweaking his knee in the process. Trainers called for a cart to take him off the field.

With five weeks remaining in the regular season, it seems unlikely Roupp will make it back this year. The Giants have fallen five games under .500 and firmly out of contention. They’ll hope that testing doesn’t reveal any significant ligament damage that’d impact his offseason or threaten his availability for the early portion of next season.

Roupp, 27 next month, has had a solid first full season as a big league starter. He has taken the ball 22 times and worked to a 3.80 ERA over 106 2/3 innings. He has recorded a 21.4% strikeout rate while getting ground-balls at a league average 45.3% clip. He has looked the part of a capable mid-rotation arm until battling injuries over the past couple weeks. A minor bout of elbow inflammation sent him to the IL shortly before the trade deadline. Tonight’s start was his second since that three-week absence.

Justin Verlander pitches the finale in San Diego tomorrow. The Giants would have Logan Webb, Robbie Ray and Kai-Wei Teng lined up for their weekend set in Milwaukee. An off day on Monday could allow them to skip Roupp’s turn in the rotation one time, but they might prefer to add a fifth starter to take the ball next Tuesday against the Cubs and give their rotation an extra day of rest. They’ll need another starter by the end of next week at the latest.

Unfortunately, one of their most intriguing depth arms won’t be a factor. Blade Tidwell, one of three players acquired from the Mets for Tyler Rogers, has begun his organizational tenure with 16 innings of three-run ball in Triple-A. Tidwell seemed to be on the verge of a call-up but reported shoulder discomfort yesterday (relayed by John Shea of The San Francisco Standard). He’s headed for an MRI of his own and won’t be an option for a big league call in the short term.

Giants Place Matt Chapman On 10-Day Injured List

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Prior to Friday’s 7-6 loss to the Rays, the Giants placed third baseman Matt Chapman on the 10-day injured list, retroactive to August 13.  (The San Francisco Chronicle’s Susan Slusser was the first to report the IL placement.)  With right-hander Ryan Walker also going on the paternity list, the Giants addressed the two open roster spots by calling up right-hander Keaton Winn from Triple-A and activating righty Landen Roupp from the 15-day IL to make the start.

Chapman is dealing with inflammation in his right hand, and has taken a cortisone shot in an effort to try and return in a minimal amount of time.  Even then, as he told Slusser and other reporters Friday that his hand likely won’t be fully healed until the offseason.  It all stems from the initial hand injury that sidelined Chapman for about four weeks in June and early July, when he suffered sprains and bone bruises on three fingers on his right hand following a painful dive back to third base.

Even after returning from that first IL stint, Chapman was still playing through discomfort, leaving him “trying to push through it, do what I can.”  Things reached a breaking point within the last few days, when Chapman’s hand became sore enough that “I really felt like I couldn’t use my hand when I was swinging, and it just didn’t feel right.”

The numbers underline Chapman’s struggles.  The third baseman hit .243/.360/.452 over his first 272 place appearances of the season, but then batted just .200/.290/.365 over the 131 PA in between his two IL placements.

Chapman’s slump has been just one factor in a team-wide offensive shortage over the last month, which has led to the Giants’ big slide down the standings.  San Francisco is 7-21 over its last 28 games, which includes an ongoing six-game losing streak and a hard-to-believe stretch of 14 losses in the Giants’ last 15 home games.  Even if Chapman does return in a minimal amount of time and is able to regain his form at the plate, it may already be too late for the Giants to make a late push at a wild card slot.

Casey Schmitt is the likeliest fill-in for Chapman at third base, though Schmitt had to leave Friday’s game after being hit by a pitch.  In the postgame media session, Giants manager Bob Melvin told Slusser and company that x-rays were negative, though Schmitt may need to miss a few games to let his right forearm contusion heal up.  This could put Christian Koss in line for some third base playing time.

Giants Place Landen Roupp On IL With Elbow Inflammation

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The Giants announced today that right-hander Landen Roupp has been placed on the 15-day injured list, retroactive to July 23rd, due to right elbow inflammation. Righty Tristan Beck has been recalled from Triple-A Sacramento as the corresponding move.

At this point, it’s unclear how severe Roupp’s elbow issue is. He took the ball on Tuesday against Atlanta, throwing 87 pitches over five shutout innings. Presumably, something has cropped up in the days following that start. Time will tell if it’s a minor issue or something more serious, though it’s always somewhat concerning when a pitcher’s throwing elbow is injured.

It’s a notable blow to the Giants regardless. Roupp has been a key cog in the rotation this year, having made 20 starts with a 3.11 earned run average, 21.3% strikeout rate, 9.4% walk rate and 45.7% ground ball rate.

The San Francisco rotation has taken a few hits in recent months. Kyle Harrison and Jordan Hicks were both included in the Rafael Devers deal. Hayden Birdsong hit a rough patch, posting a 10.38 ERA in his five most recent starts, which led to him getting optioned to the minors a few days ago.

Subtracting Birdsong and Roupp now leaves the Giants with a rotation of Logan Webb, Robbie Ray and Justin Verlander. Webb and Ray still form a strong one-two punch at the front but Verlander has a 4.70 ERA on the year. Without Harrison and Hicks, there’s a bit less depth to provide cover.

The Giants are still in the race, currently just one game back of the Padres for the final Wild Card spot in the National League. President of baseball operations Buster Posey recently stated that the Giants are scouring the market for rotation additions. Perhaps he already knew about Roupp’s injury when he made those comments, but regardless, the development could increase the club’s aggressiveness on that front between now and Thursday’s deadline.

Webb is taking the ball tonight and Ray tomorrow. Verlander is slated for Monday. The Giants will have to figure out plans for Sunday and Tuesday. Perhaps they will deploy bullpen games with guys like Beck, Sean Hjelle or Carson Seymour doing some long relief work. Guys like Carson Ragsdale and Mason Black are on the 40-man roster, though Ragsdale just started yesterday and Black the day before. Prospect Carson Whisenhunt is stretched out in Triple-A but isn’t on the 40-man and the club may not want to promote him if they’re going to acquire pitchers at the deadline and have to bump him back down again.

Photo courtesy of Darren Yamashita, Imagn Images

Landen Roupp Wins Final Spot In Giants’ Rotation

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The Giants named Landen Roupp their fifth starter to begin the season, manager Bob Melvin tells reporters (link via Alex Pavlovic of NBC Sports Bay Area). Hayden Birdsong, who was the remaining competitor for that spot, also made the team but will start the year in relief.

Roupp breaks camp for the second straight year. The righty pitched mostly out of the bullpen during his rookie season. He started four of 23 appearances and tallied 50 1/3 innings of 3.58 ERA ball. Roupp’s 21.7% strikeout percentage and 47.2% grounder rate were close to league average. A 12% walk rate was the main red flag, but he has thrown plenty of strikes this spring.

The 26-year-old Roupp only walked one of the 46 batters he faced in camp. He hit a couple batters as well but only put 6.5% of batters faced aboard for free. Roupp struck out 14 while surrendering eight hits and five runs through 12 innings. That earns him his first Opening Day rotation spot behind Logan Webb, Justin Verlander, Robbie Ray and Jordan Hicks.

Birdsong had an even more impressive Spring Training. The 6’4″ righty ran an 18:0 strikeout-to-walk ratio over 12 innings of one-run ball. He could hardly have pitched better, but he’ll work in relief for the first time since his 2022 draft year. Birdsong started all 16 MLB appearances after earning his first major league call last June. He turned in a 4.75 ERA through 72 innings. Birdsong punched out nearly 28% of opposing hitters but walked 13.7% of batters faced. It’s been a similar pattern throughout his minor league career. The Eastern Illinois product has a 34.4% strikeout rate against a 13.7% walk percentage in the minors.

Kyle Harrison entered camp as the favorite for the fifth starter role. The Giants optioned him to Triple-A Sacramento over the weekend, in large part because a virus delayed his ramp-up this spring. They could have optioned Birdsong as well, but his exhibition performance was so loud that he left the team little choice but to carry him on the MLB roster in some capacity. Pavlovic writes that the Giants will use Birdsong in multi-inning appearances to keep him stretched out. There’s a good chance he’ll get a rotation opportunity before long as injuries arise throughout the season.

Giants Option Kyle Harrison To Triple-A

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The Giants announced a few more Spring Training cuts today, optioning left-hander Kyle Harrison and right-hander Keaton Winn to Triple-A, and reassigning lefty Joey Lucchesi to the team’s minor league camp.  With Harrison now slated for Triple-A, Hayden Birdsong and Landen Roupp are the last pitchers competing for the fifth spot in San Francisco’s rotation.

Harrison seemingly had a rotation job all but officially locked up following the former top prospect’s first full MLB campaign.  It wasn’t exactly a breakout year since Harrison posted a modest 4.56 ERA and a modest 22.2% strikeout percentage over 124 1/3 innings, but it seemed like the southpaw had done enough to claim his place in the Giants’ pitching staff going forward.

However, Harrison’s season saw him spend time on the injured list due to first a sprained ankle, and then a shoulder impingement in September that ultimately brought his year to a close.  As Alex Pavlovic of NBC Sports Bay Area writes, Harrison’s shoulder issue was caused because he tried to return too soon from his ankle injury, and the 23-year-old subsequently spent a good chunk of his offseason getting his shoulder back to full strength.

That disruption to Harrison’s winter routine was then followed by a virus that waylaid Harrison near the start of Spring Training, costing him 13 pounds of weight and quite a bit of lost build-up time in camp.  Harrison has made only three appearances in Cactus League games, with a 10.80 ERA to show for his 6 2/3 innings of work.

San Francisco’s rotation mix as a whole was altered when the team signed Justin Verlander, and decided to give Jordan Hicks another chance as a starting pitcher.  Between those two veteran hurlers, Logan Webb, and Robbie Ray, there was now just one remaining spot in the rotation, and Harrison’s lost time cost him dearly against tough competition.  Given how well Birdsong (0.75 ERA in 12 innings) and Roupp (3.75 ERA in 12 innings) have looked this spring, Harrison might have been hard-pressed to win a job even when healthy.

Birdsong looks like the favorite for the fifth starter’s job at the moment, and Roupp could still make the team in a bullpen role.  Roupp worked as a reliever in 19 of his 23 appearances for the Giants in his 2024 rookie year, posting a 3.58 ERA over 50 1/3 innings.  Birdsong also made his MLB debut last season, with a 4.75 ERA across 72 innings (starting all 16 games).

Giants Place Robbie Ray On Injured List

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The Giants have placed left-hander Robbie Ray on the 15-day injured list with a left hamstring strain. Right-hander Landen Roupp has been recalled in a corresponding move. Susan Slusser of the San Francisco Chronicle was among those to relay the transaction on X.

Ray, 32, was acquired in the offseason with an eye toward the former AL Cy Young winner serving as a second-half reinforcement in the rotation. He underwent Tommy John surgery early in the 2023 season and was subsequently shelved through late July.

While Ray wowed with five no-hit innings and eight punchouts against the Dodgers in his return on July 24, he’s lasted a combined 25 2/3 innings across his next six starts and posted an ERA north of 5.00 in that time. Overall, he’s sitting on a 4.70 earned run average with a hefty 33.3% strikeout rate against a problematic 11.6% walk rate in 30 2/3 frames. He’s also served up six long balls — an untenable average of 1.76 homers per nine innings.

When or whether Ray returns in 2024 remains to be seen, but the Giants still have him signed for another two seasons. Ray actually has the right to opt out of his contract at season’s end, but he’s guaranteed $25MM in each of the next two seasons. Given Ray’s shaky performance on the heels of Tommy John rehab, and now a hamstring injury, it seems likely he’ll forgo that right and take the remaining two-year, $50MM guarantee on his deal.

The hope, of course, will be that Ray can return to form next season — if not all the way to his 2021 Cy Young form then at least to his 2022 levels, when he pitched 189 innings of 3.71 ERA ball for the Mariners while showing an appealing K-BB profile. That’d position him to join Logan Webb, Kyle Harrison and perhaps young arms like Hayden Birdsong and Carson Whisenhunt in the San Francisco rotation.

In the short-term, the Giants will go with a rotation featuring Webb, Harrison, Birdsong and the resurgent Blake Snell. It’s not clear who’ll step into the fifth spot in Ray’s absence. Not long after the trade deadline, when discussing the decision not to move Snell, Giants president of baseball operations Farhan Zaidi opined that the Giants possessed the best starting staff in the sport. Perhaps the Giants are indeed among the most talented groups, but it’s a top-heavy unit lacking depth and consistency — and Ray’s injury only underscores that.

Mason Black, Kai-Wei Teng and Trevor McDonald are all on the 40-man roster, but none has found any big league success (or even pitched especially well in Triple-A this year, for that matter). The Giants are also no stranger to patching things over with bullpen games and could go that route, particularly if Ray is only expected to require a short-term stay on the injured list.

Giants Option Camilo Doval

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The Giants have optioned right-hander Camilo Doval, per Maria I. Guardado of MLB.com on X. Earlier, Susan Slusser of the San Francisco Chronicle had reported on X that Doval appeared to be headed out. The club also optioned catcher Jakson Reetz, per Guardado on X. To take the two roster spots, catcher Curt Casali was reinstated from the paternity list and Landen Roupp was recalled.

The move highlights what a struggle the 2024 campaign has been for Doval, especially lately. He spent the 2022 and 2023 seasons as a lights-out closer for the club, tossing 135 1/3 innings with a 2.73 earned run average. He struck out 29.5% of batters faced and got ground balls at a 54.4% clip. His 9.9% walk rate was a tad high, but not egregiously so. For reference, MLB relievers had a combined 9.5% walk rate last year. Doval saved 27 games in 2022 and 39 last year, the latter number leading the National League.

That performance put him on the map as one of the better closers in the game. He was selected to the 2023 National League All-Star team and the Giants had some extension talks with him last year. But 2024 has been a different story. Doval has racked up another 22 saves but that’s in spite of his 4.70 ERA on the year. His strikeout and ground ball rates are still strong but he’s walked 14.3% of batters faced.

Things have been trending in the wrong direction as well. Since the start of June, Doval has a 6.75 ERA in his 21 1/3 innings pitched and blown four saves in that time. Clearly, the Giants feel he needs some kind of reset. Rather than simply moving him to a lower leverage role, they’ll send him to the minors to try to get him back on track.

The Giants will now have to figure out who will close games. Manager Bob Melvin said that they will have one guy for the job but he hasn’t told that guy yet, per Slusser on X. He did say that Jordan Hicks could be an option later but not at the moment.

Perhaps that will point to Ryan Walker stepping in and taking the job. The righty debuted last year with a 3.23 ERA in 61 1/3 innings. He’s been even better this year, with a 2.24 ERA in his 60 1/3 innings. He has struck out 30.5% of batters faced while only giving out walks at a 5.6% clip and opposing batters have put the ball on the ground at a 47.5% rate. He has moved into a leverage role with 21 holds on the year so far.

Turning to Doval and his contract status, the move isn’t likely to have a massive impact on him unless this turns into an exceptionally long stint in the minors. He came into this season with two years and 71 days of service time, putting him 101 days shy of the three-year mark. Since we’re over 130 days into the season at this point, he’s already gone past that line. That means he’ll qualify for arbitration this winter and is still on track for free agency after 2027.

Optional assignments in future seasons could impact that timeline, however. He currently has two option years. A player needs to spend at least 20 days on optional assignment in a given season for that to count as one of their options. Even if Doval does stay down to use one here in 2024, he’ll have another that could be used in an upcoming season.

Of course, all parties involved will be hoping that these are concerns that will become moot. Ideally, Doval can quickly regain his control and return to the Giants in short order and boost their bullpen for the stretch run. The club is 59-58 and just three games away from a playoff spot at the moment. They feel that optioning Doval to the minors is the best thing for the club at the moment but him returning to form would obviously be best for the future.

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