New Manny Scenario Discussed?

I don't buy this. I am pretty sure Floyd has a no-trade clause barring a deal with the Red Sox. He wasn't happy in Boston his last time. Plus, with Boston's bullpen issues, I'd guess they'd keep Heilman over Bannister.

Pretty good counterpoints, Mikey. Especially about Floyd.

This sounds way too crazy. Plus Boston would be getting screwed in this deal. Manny and Arroyo for Julio Lugo and Cliff Floyd? I'm pretty sure the front office in Boston watches baseball.

Now that I've digested it, would make more sense if the Mets kept Lugo and shipped Reyes to Boston.

Using MikeyT's comment (Heilman over Bannister) i think the players would make sense. I don't think that BOS would want/take Reyes over Lugo though. The money needs to be worked out like you mentioned since BOS would be shedding a lot and NYM taking on a lot.

My only question is, when is TB going to stop trading away their talant for prospets (plus Arroyo).

I think TB's future looks very bright. They've no reason to try to keep Lugo, Huff, or Baez with better, younger players pushing for jobs. They need a couple more starters and 1-2 bullpen guys to contend. I think they can spend one more season developing and then use free agency to build a contender in 2007.

"am pretty sure Floyd has a no-trade clause barring a deal with the Red Sox"

BINGO! No chance in hell Floyd is not going to the Red Sox.

Also, there is the LITTLE matter of SALARY! Both Floyd and Benson would need to be traded in order to take on Manny's salary!!!

"Now that I've digested it, would make more sense if the Mets kept Lugo and shipped Reyes to Boston."

Yeah... that's gonna happen...

The Mets are essentially gutting and castrating (salary-wise) their team for a bat they don't need? Explain to me how this makes sense!

"I think TB's future looks very bright."

The future of their players lay with the Yankees and some (Kazmir) with the Mets.

See you in 2010, Scott! :)

Keeping Lugo instead of Reyes would be a very good move for the Mets. Reyes is terrible.

Why do people assume the Rays will be the exact same type of team in five years that they are now? They could win a WS in '08 or something.

"Reyes is terrible."

Reyes is also 22 and making the league minimum.

Jose wasn't allowed to learn any sort of plate discipline because he was brought up too early (20).

It's just one more piece of evidence that the Mets organization is run as ineptly as any in baseball.

I just can't see Boston doing this deal. Nothing surprises me with the Mets, but Boston wouldn't be getting enough in return for Manny and Arroya for Lugo, Floyd and a few propects. That's why I think if Boston was to do it, they should try to get Reyes instead of Lugo....I'm not saying the Mets would do, but at least the Red Sox wouldn't be getting the short end of the stick.

Hell the Mets wouldnt do this deal. Take a look at Floyd's WARP!!! Now, take a look at Man Ram's! FLOYD IS A BETTER PLAYER THAN RAMIREZ, PERIOD

"FLOYD IS A BETTER PLAYER THAN RAMIREZ, PERIOD"

Would Minaya and his brass even know this?

Minaya has said several times that his lefthanded bat, coupled with Delgado, is the reason why he won't be traded. It's simply too valuable in creating matchup problems late in games with David Wright feasting off lefties.

The Mets make out well in this deal. Tampa does not do badly. The Red Sox get screwed by giving up one of the best hitters in baseball and a 4-5 starter for a backup CF, an average SS and an aging, injury-plagued LF. The solid source must be Mr. Met.

Although I agree that Floyd is better than Manny, I don't think the Mets realize it/agree with it. Otherwise why would they ever discuss trading for Ramirez?

To me, it adds a little bit of legitimacy to the rumor if fans of every team involved think theirs is getting cheated.

"Otherwise why would they ever discuss trading for Ramirez?

Clearly, the oorganization is run by colobus monkeys.

Floyd better than Manny? Get off the acid folks!!!

I'm a Met fan and I don't know how anyone can say Floyd is better than Manny. Maybe when you take into consider salary, Floyd is, but not in terms of talent. Manny's one of the best hitters in the game and Floyd wasn't highly thought of by Met fans until he had a good season last year.

Defense matters. Manny is terrible, Floyd is good. That tips the scales towards Floyd.

"Manny's one of the best hitters in the game and Floyd wasn't highly thought of by Met fans until he had a good season last year."

Good? He had a GREAT season... arguably the best of his career taking into account his defense and power hitting.

I love Cliff, but did anyone notice he only hit 22 doubles? I definitely think he is due for a decline, but hope that he does AFTER this year.

Manny can play RF, he played RF for the indians before he played for the red sox. I guess RF was taken when manny came over, so he had to move to LF.

Do people actually think Cliff Floyd is better than Manny? How about Manny's OPS is over .150 points higher than Floyd or that Manny averages around 40 games more a season. Hell, Floyd only has Manny beat by .06 and that includes over a 1/3 of his putouts at 1st base. Floyd better than Manny....Please.

Again, you've completely ignored defense for some reason.

Apparently, so did the Yankees when they signed Damon. :p

Cliff had a 'great' season by his standards I suppose. But I'm not going to say a power-hitter like Floyd had an overall great year when he only batted .270 and didn't even knock in 100. In fact, Floyd's only knocked in 100 runs ONCE. Manny's done it every season since 1998, and twice before that.

And while his defense was 'great' by his standards, it wasn't gold glove caliber. He botched that play in Pittsburgh that led to a big Pirate comeback and a Met loss. He had flashes, but he's not an elite defender.

"it wasn't gold glove caliber."

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

Don't you think that those RBIs are somewhat related to the lineup a hitter is in? Huge difference in opportunities on the '05 Mets vs. the '05 Red Sox.

The Gold Gloves are a joke, Floyd was a great defensive LF. Who cares about his batting average, his OBP was solid.

"botched that play in Pittsburgh that led to a big Pirate comeback and a Met loss"

Ironically, he saved at least three or four... off the top of my head... by robbing HR's and crashing into walls.

Manny ain't crashing into no walls.

"Again, you've completely ignored defense for some reason."

I didn't mean to, I actually did address it. I just got a bit scatter brained. 1st off Cliff Floyd ain't exactly Andrew Jones in LF. And despite a 1/3 of his put outs at 1st base he only has a career fielding percentage .06 points higher than Manny. I think putting as much emphasis on probably the least valuable defensive position in baseball to give Floyd a push over Manny in terms of over all value I say BS. Hell, even if Floyd could field like Andrew Jones in LF, I'd still take Manny.

"Floyd was a great defensive LF"

His FRAR was outstanding (24). Manny's? (-1!)

"Floyd ain't exactly Andrew Jones in LF"

Andruw Jones in Center? 20.
Cliff Floyd in Left? 24.

*coughs*

That's FRAR... Fielding Runs Above Replacement.

That's levitation, holmes!

Mind bullets.

This is about as rediculous as my spelling.

Cliff Floyd is not a GOOD defensive OF. People want to look at Floyd's year last year and get excited. He made the plays on the balls hit at him and he made a few great plays. People want to get worked up about his assists in the OF. Fact is, people ran home on him because they thought they could get cheap runs. He would throw a 5 bouncer from shallow LF and get the guy out at home plate. Did that 4 or 5 times last year. Cliff Floyd is a below average OF. That's it. Yes, he had an above average year all the way around last year. Offensively and defensively. It happens every once in awhile. Take his career with the Mets for example. Was a rediculous dissapointment, then comes out of nowhere last year. He and Manny are VERY similar defensively career wise. Floyd isn't even on Manny's block offensively.

What's each other's Win Shares for '05? I'd venture to say Manny has Floyd beat by about 10 or so......and that includes fielding.....doesn't it?

"Cliff Floyd is not a GOOD defensive OF. People want to look at Floyd's year last year and get excited. He made the plays on the balls hit at him and he made a few great plays. People want to get worked up about his assists in the OF. Fact is, people ran home on him because they thought they could get cheap runs. He would throw a 5 bouncer from shallow LF and get the guy out at home plate. Did that 4 or 5 times last year. Cliff Floyd is a below average OF. That's it. Yes, he had an above average year all the way around last year. Offensively and defensively. It happens every once in awhile. Take his career with the Mets for example. Was a rediculous dissapointment, then comes out of nowhere last year. He and Manny are VERY similar defensively career wise. Floyd isn't even on Manny's block offensively."

No one in their right mind is comparing Cliff to Manny OFFENSIVELY. But as an OVERALL PLAYER, it's no competition.

Cliff not only played solid, sometimes remarkable, defense, but he also hit 34 HR's in a park where Manny would do well to hit that many.

Oh, and he stole 12 bases, while Manny is an atrocious baserunner.

The Cliff Floyd, the very best there is... when you absolutely, positively, have to piss off every Red Sox fan in the room? Accept no substitutes!

"Cliff not only played solid, sometimes remarkable, defense, but he also hit 34 HR's in a park where Manny would do well to hit that many."

No, what's remarkable is that he played 150 games last year.

"No one in their right mind is comparing Cliff to Manny OFFENSIVELY. But as an OVERALL PLAYER, it's no competition."

This isn't shortstop this is left field. Manny could play the position sitting down, and still have more value than Floyd.

"No, what's remarkable is that he played 150 games last year."

And it's amazing Manny hasn't landed his overweight, unmotivated arse on a long DL stint.

Dude is breaking down and making 20M a year. If i'm Minaya, my focus is Zito, not a superfluous bat.

That's the extent of my argument. My baby back ribs have arrived!

Mets won't make a deal like this because: 1) Randolph loves having righty-lefty balance throughout the lineup and trading Floyd removes that. 2) this would make Nady a full-time player with no safety net behind him, since Floyd and Diaz would be gone. 3) losing Heilman removes your bridge to Wagner and Julian Tavarez would not be the answer for that spot since Minaya chose to go on the cheap with Roberto Hernandez and Dotel. 4) Reyes, despite all of his flaws, still had a pretty good year for his first full season in the majors (meaning no injuries) and why would they deal him to get Lugo? 5) Teams will wait the Red Sox out because once the year starts and they struggle, Manny will be mouthing off to the papers daily asking to be dealt.

I like good ole-fashioned stats as much as the next guy, but you can't look at a stat sheet and say that one player is better than another. All you can say is that, over a given period of time, one player has posted better statistics than another. Manny Ramirez is a hitting machine, and while RM is right in pointing out that playing for the Sox doesn't hurt Manny's RBI chances, he still has to go up to the plate and drive in the runs. Having said that, Manny Ramirez is one of the worst outfielders I have ever personally seen. He botches plays routinely, is slow, takes poor routes, lacks hustle, and has a poor arm. Defensively, Floyd is better by default (not to say that Floyd is a bad fielder, but Manny flat-out sucks in LF).

There are potential reasons for all teams involved to want to make this trade (not saying it will happen, and think it won't, but hypothetically, I could see motivation to make this deal):

Mets: Floyd had a good season last year, but has by-and-large failed to stay healthy consistently enough to realize the potential he has had (he has performed well, for the most part, when able to stay healthy) since high school. Moreover, Manny is a hitting machine. He is one of the best hitters in MLB, and will make it to the Hall of Fame based purely on his offensive abilities. It's harder to justify trading the young prospects, but Minaya is a "win now" type of guy--someone who thinks that having the best team on paper translates into winning the World Series. The Mets still have quite a few very good prospects--even after dealing a lot of pitching this off-season. If Minaya gets the chance, he'll trade more prospects to land another "impact player."

Tampa Bay: Any move that means cutting payroll, and therefore maximizing profit for ownership, is fair game for TB. More importantly, Tampa has quite a few talented youngsters that make the likes of Huff (whose value has been dropping, and may drop even more if they wait to trade him) and Lugo expendable. Both will be free agents next year, and Tampa is not going to spend the money to keep either. Throw in the fact that what Tampa Bay needs is talented young pitching (which they would get), and I see no reason for them NOT to make this deal, if it is proposed. BTW, bet they are chomping at the bit to do business with the Mets again. That Kazmir-Zambrano deal worked out pretty well for the D-Rays...

Boston: Yes, Boston would be losing a lot of production; they'd also be losing a loose-cannon headcase who, despite being a phenom at the plate, is an all-around poor baseball player. Boston has quite a stacked rotation as things stand now, what with Papelbon and Lester, and can afford to trade a couple of starters (Wells is almost certainly gone, so if they can acquire a shortstop and a center fielder while only losing 1 pitcher, they should be okay on that front). The other reason Boston may want to do business with the Mets is that Minaya wants Manny the most, and is most likely of any GM in baseball to pay the most of ManRam's contract (probably not all of it, but Boston would be dealing from a position of power if they deal with the Mets--moreso than with any other team, at any rate).

I don't think this particular deal will get done, though. The Red Sox need to do a lot of things this off-season, and while they would acquire a couple of glaring needs while also dumping a big headache, they need to make sure the players they receive can at least somewhat replace Manny's RBI totals. They badly want Tejada, and although Baltimore doesn't want to deal in the division, and is saying they're keeping Tejada, a deal involving Miggy and Manny makes way too much sense. Look for a third team to get involved, but not the Mets; more likely, Boston and Baltimore get a deal done by themselves, or with a team like Tampa Bay.

Eric: But Minaya has been trying to land Manny since he took over the job. And some of the deals he has made so far demonstrate that if he wants a player, he's going to try his damnedest to get him. Whether it's a good idea or not. Case in point, Carlos Delgado. Delgado had some choice words for Minaya and the Mets organization last off-season, and has his share of controversies. Being in the big spotlight of New York may not be the best place for Delgado. Factor into the equation that Delgado's defense is downright bad, and the fact that the New York Mets, while boasting one of the best offensive infields, also boasts possibly the worst infield defense in the National League.

If he sees a way to get Manny, he's going to.

Jan: Read the above. I like your arguments. A LOT! But when a GM gets tunnel vision, all the logic in the world usually doesn't help. Same will be true if Hendry trades Prior. It'd be a stupid move, but he seems to be set on acquiring another right-handed power bat (which he does NOT need), and is entertaining making a very dangerous trade to get one.

What the hell is going on here? what type of idiot would say Floyd is even remotely close to the player manny is? are you kidding me? who cares if youre 'admit' maybe offensively he isn't, but defensively it 'tips the scales to floyd'... are you kidding me? look, i know manny can look a little laxed on balls to the outfield, but wasn't he close to leading the league in outfield assists last year? he held his own out there.. and i dont think someone's assertion that manny is 'bad' and floyd is "good" on defense makes floyd all of a sudden make up for the difference in offensive production. if anything, Floyd is going to have to be characterized as 'supernatural' to bridge that gap.. Jesus, Come on - Manny is arguably one of the best hitters in the game-- and has been for a while.. floyd has one good year and all of a sudden he is HANDS DOWN better than ramirez? how about his awful knees and getting up their in age? ramirez is a guaranteed hall of famer.. is floyd? I can't believe some of you people call yourselves baseball fans.. I'm embarassed for you.

"What the hell is going on here? what type of idiot would say Floyd is even remotely close to the player manny is? are you kidding me? who cares if youre 'admit' maybe offensively he isn't, but defensively it 'tips the scales to floyd'... are you kidding me?"

You can have your opinion, but the numbers are what they are... and they say Floyd was more valuable than Manny last year.

http://www.rotoauthority.com/2005/11/best_of_2005_le.html

Check that out if you don't believe me.

"FLOYD IS A BETTER PLAYER THAN RAMIREZ, PERIOD"

oh yea of course he is, I can't wait to see when they both get inducted into the Hall Of Fame!you clown!lol

"You can have your opinion, but the numbers are what they are... and they say Floyd was more valuable than Manny last year."

Eric: You are smoking Crack. Clearly. Are you just a die hard Floyd fan or something? Please tell me there is some other outside factor influencing your irrational comments. You ask any major league GM who they would rather have on their team,- Floyd or Ramirez, They would all say Ramirez. Theres a reason for that. It's not like youve come up with some magical new idea that makes floyd somehow a better player-- he's not.. not even close. You can't replace manny's production with a "good" defensive outfielder.. Manny wasn't even "Bad" Like some would like to say...
Think about it.. why would every GM If floyd and Ramirez had equal contracts -- choose Ramirez over Floyd in a heartbeat? THINK ABOUT IT?!?! you know they would too. - any GM that chose Floyd over Ramirez would find the following season's seats to be completely empty cause their loyal fan base was disgusted and embarassed they passed up an unbelievable opportunity.. Really Eric.. are you telling me right now, HONESTLY that if you could have Manny or Floyd... you would take Floyd? If you said Yes to that, you really really really need to take a better look at baseball and what makes a winning team and ball player rather than reading one guys opinionated mathematical 'formula' for what makes a player ' statistically' better than another player... Reflect on this one Eric.. I mean REALLY question yourself.. Floyd or ramirez on your team?..- Your dignity depends on it.

"I can't wait to see when they both get inducted into the Hall Of Fame!you clown!lol"

Let's not resort to infantile name-calling.

First of all, we're not talking "Hall of Fame". Entrance to the Hall of Fame is based on CAREER.

Floyd had, arguably, the best year he's EVER had.

Manny, on the other hand, had one of his worst, relatively speaking.

Manny is a horrible defender who's bat is bound to slow in the coming years, if it hasn't already.

Manny is not entering his prime, he's leaving it.

And the Mets don't need him... nuff said.

"Floyd had, arguably, the best year he's EVER had.

Manny, on the other hand, had one of his worst, relatively speaking."

Well, you just summed it up for yourself there Eric, and you probably didn't even realize it. Let me summarize for you what you just said:
Manny's worst year is still better than Floyd's best Year...

And Floyd is still hands down better than Manny Huh?

"Reflect on this one Eric.. I mean REALLY question yourself.. Floyd or ramirez on your team?..- Your dignity depends on it."

My intelligence tells me to keep Floyd, bring Milledge up in '07, and keep Heilman and Diaz.

And, most importantly, avoid Manny... unless it means we are getting him for relatively little and the Sox pay half his salary.

Getting Manny comes with CONSEQUENCES. You want to get Zito in the offseason? It ain't happening if we get Manny.

You made the assertion that Floyd is a better PLAYER, hands down.. than Manny. how his salary comes into the type of Player he is is beyond me. The fact that you say to choose floyd over manny if contracts were equal is nothing short of Assanine. It's a good thing that you aren't managing a ball club. Your team revenues would go right down the shitter with no fans in the seats.

"And Floyd is still hands down better than Manny Huh?"

Yes, because his defense will only get worse.

Let me put it to you this way..

If player A is worth 4 wins with the bat and 4 with the glove, he is worth 8 wins.

If player B is worth 10 wins with the bat and -2 with the glove, he is still worth 8 wins, regardless of the fact he's a better hitter.

Could Floyd get worse in 06? Yes. But he's still a better value for 6.5 million and we have a stud prospect in AA waiting to take his place.

I'd much rather lugo at short and keep ramirez than give him up for tejada..

lets talk about something worth talking about. The mets signed some bullpen help the other day. His name is CHAD BRADFORD!!

"Could Floyd get worse in 06? Yes. But he's still a better value for 6.5 million and we have a stud prospect in AA waiting to take his place."

There are so many holes in your argument but i think the biggest one is the fact that you put so much emphasis on a "stud" PROSPECT just naturally becoming a star in the bigs. It's not a given by any means that they will make the transition to stardom and it absolutely does not justify passing up a once in a lifetime opportunity to get a hall of fame PROVEN major league stud like manny ramirez.
Did you even watch any red sox games last year? Manny ramirez was actually GOOD with his glove.. he is a clubhouse cancer- maybe-- but he's not losing games for the sox leadign the league in assists

"lets talk about something worth talking about. The mets signed some bullpen help the other day. His name is CHAD BRADFORD!!"

Yea, I actually do think this is worth talking about. This is a move i can't understand from the sox standpoint. We let left specialist Mike Myers, who was very good for the sox Go because we supposedly already had one in Bradford.. Now that bradford is gone, who the shit do we have as a left specialist?

I guess the Milledge for Koufax rumors have died down..

"I guess the Milledge for Koufax rumors have died down..
"

hahah

"The Mets could always try to get Manny and keep Floyd, but Floyd hasn't played RF since 2002"

ummmm... dont forget that Manny was a right fielder with the indians before he came to boton

A pretty good one to.

If by good you mean below average, then yes, he was good.

i was wondering how long it take for someone to say that. in that case he was not good. he was great.

This trade, I guarantee, would never happen. There's a better chance of me living forver than this happening.

Why?

Cliff Floyd has a NO TRADE CLAUSE in his contract, but it is limitied to one city. You guys wanna guess where?

Yeah, he hated Boston more than any city he'd ever been to (Paraphrasing his quotes).

Better chance of getting struck by lightning while buying the 500 million dollar winning lottery ticket as you float in midair going backwards in time and eating your own head than having this go down.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5122058

This Floyd contract limited no-trade clause was reported 29 days ago.

However, there is a contradicting report:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2003/04/29/SP287006.DTL

Can someone post the actual MLB source for this claim that Ken Rosenthal made 29 days ago?

"Can someone post the actual MLB source for this claim that Ken Rosenthal made 29 days ago?"

Um... let's just say Sox fans are racist and Cliff doesn't want to go back.

"Cliff Floyd of
4 years/$26M (2003-06)

03:$6.5M, 04:$6.5M, 05:$6.5M, 06:$6.5M
signed as a free agent 12/02
full NTC 03, limited NTC 04-06
4 years/$19M (1999-2002)
99:$2.5M, 00:$4.5M, 01:$5.5M, 02:$6.5M
agent: Levinson brothers
ML service: 10.170 "

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2004_12_27_mlbcontracts_archive.html

Of course, Cliff could always waive it... but he won't.

"limited NTC 04-06"

According to this link the limited NTC is that he cannot be traded more than once in a single season from 04 to 06.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2003/04/29/SP287006.DTL

"Other times, the clause comes with a distinctive twist. Cliff Floyd, traded twice in 19 days last season, was wary of constantly changing addresses.

The Mets gave Floyd a no-trade clause in the first year of his four-year, $26 million contract; for the final three years, Floyd can be traded only once per season."

Therefore, there is no question that there are some limitations, but there are no links that I am aware that support the "beliefs" of FoxSports.com's Ken Rosenthal, reported 29 days ago.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5122058

Again, I am asking for links, so we can put this issue to rest.

Alright look, this trade is obviously never going to happen. I would hate it for the sox and so would every other sox fan... it's ridiculous.. theres no need to continue talking about it.. the only fact of the matter is manny is 10 times the player floyd is.... Lets move on.. i hate when ive read all the latest rumors and have nothing more to read... Anyone got any good sources to check for new info?

How can anybody say that Manny Ramirez is a better outfielder than cliff floyd. The position is in the field... therefore the fielding part should be viewed before the aspects of hitting where cliff floyd is a much better outfielder than manny at this current point in time... Talking about a career stats has no bearing on what will happen next season, Ramirez's numbers went down, while Floyd's went up... Making Floyd more valuable at this point in time and furthermore, floyd is moving into the season with the free agent market breathing down his neck. Now-a-days players are looking to cash in more than ever and what would help cliff cash in more then another solid season. Plus with a line-up feature beltran, delgado, wright, and floyd, where does a shaky fielding outifielder fit who in my opinion will be on the downside of his career this season or next? The mets will not make this trade because if floyd does not produce... he's gone by at the end of this season... Where as ramirez would still be under contract whether or not he produces... Furthermore Ramirez's contract features a no-trade clause which if he did become a met, could prevent them from moving him which would inturn tie up their payroll and their minor league systems with top prospect Lastings milledge scaling the wall to the bigs. I don't think this trade could be a bigger mistake. Plus trading hielman who has shown how dominant he can be with his excellent performance last year, does this make sense? Trading young players (excluding floyd) for manny a player who has exited his prime and now faces the downside of his career? To top the entire fact of Manny Vs Floyd... Floyd hit his 34 homeruns in a Notorious Pitchers Park, and as far as his 22 Doubles, it is easy for a guy like ramirez to topple the Monster, and if he doesn't hit it quite high enough... he'll just take second base, so the stats cannot be compared unless they both played for the same team in the same ball park hit for hit. Therefore floyd will prove to be the better player for the mets to have this year...

When is this site going to put up something good that might happen like THE BEAZ RUMORS instead of something that wont happen LIKE THIS TRADE.

Omar Minaya is the Godfather of trades, there's no way in hell he gives up all that talent for just Manny Ramirez? Aint` happening like that.

Manny is staying in Boston!!!!!!!!!!!! I personally talked to him yesterday.