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Help Kenny Williams Trade Contreras

White Sox GM Kenny Williams made a funny comment yesterday in his interview with Daily Herald writer Scot Gregor.  Below is Gregor's question followed by KW's answer.

Gregor: Pitchers and catchers report to spring training in three weeks, and you still have six starters (Mark Buehrle, Jose Contreras, Freddy Garcia, Jon Garland, Vazquez and Brandon McCarthy) and only five spots in the rotation. Is it safe to assume one of the starters will be traded before Opening Day?

KW: I’m at the golf course right now, so I’m trying not to think about trades. But I go online sometimes and get plenty of ideas about what I should be doing with the extra starter.

Let me say this: In my mind, there is no such thing as having too much starting pitching. I can remember more than one season when we struggled to find a fifth starter, and that really hurt us.

If anybody out there thinks we’re going to move one of our starting pitchers for less than equal value — for anything less than a guy that can get up on the mound and give us the same results — they’re barking up the wrong tree.

Well, you heard the man.  He goes online (hopefully to MLBTradeRumors.com) for suggestions on what to do with his extra starting pitcher.  (Yes, I realize he was kidding).

Have at it!  Propose a legitimate trade involving Jose Contreras in the comments.  Try your best to make it fair for both teams, all factors considered.  I'm interested to see what y'all can come up with.  Maybe we'll send the best one to KW, since he kind of almost acknowledged us.

Williams seemed to indicate that he wanted a starter of equal value in return.  Certainly take that into consideration, but I wouldn't limit the possibilites to starting pitchers.  For example, my proposal would be Contreras for Pat Burrell.  I think the Sox need offense more than starting pitching.

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Comments

The Mets should jump on Contreras. How about Victor Diaz, Royce Ring and John Maine (who they just acquired in the Benson deal).

You seriously believe that Pat Burell for Contreras would be a fair trade fo both sides. Oh, come on. Why is a 35 year old pitcher who has lost significant velocity each and every year a fair trade for a player in his prime. If you look at the previous year's production they are about equal, it could even be argued that Contreras was superior, but the age concerns surround the Sox hurler heavily downgrade his trade value.

Onto one of my proposals:

The White Sox give Jose Contreras to the Orioles for utility player Kevin Millar (He can play all 3 OF, 1B and 3B) and Daniel Cabrera. This trade would give a much needed upgrade to the Oriole's pitching staff, and would give the Sox an added bat in the lineup. It would also ensure that there is a young, MLB able pitcher waiting in the ranks for the south siders.

How about a trade with the mets getting Contreras? They could definitely use another SP before Pelfrey/Soler/Bannister is ready.
I'll submit a Cliff Floyd plus a minor league SP such as bannister (not Pelfrey or Soler) or Cliff Floyd plus Zambrano, but i think thats high hopes as a Mets fan. If the Chi Sox want a OF prospect we can give them prospects such as Gomez, Concepcion, or Hill (not Milledge)along with Floyd, and then they could have Podsednik move to center.
I'm only thinking of these because I've read in numerous places that Minaya is looking into landing Contreras.

Jose Contreras for Baggwell and Taveras (if Bags can play)

Trade Contreras and Joe Borchard (or another top OF prospect) to the Astros for Jason Lane and a top starter prospect (Nieve or Hirsh)?

Lane will eventually replace Dye next season and if Anderson doesn't pan out, platoon Lane and Mackoviac and shift Podsednik to CF.

Houston can move Berkman to 1B and have Burke/Borchard platoon in RF.

Jose Contreras and Joe Crede for Aramis Ramirez and Will Ohman.

Given Burrell's insane contract, I thought people would actually come down on me saying it wasn't fair for Philly.

Sox & Cards sway Contreras for Marquis (plus prospect to even things out). Cards get power pitcher and sox get starter in return.

I dont know about you guys but I think everyone is giving Contreras too much credit Burrel for contreras is pretty even but sending Floyd AND a pitching prospect thats such a bad trade for the Mets. For the mets I would offer Diaz, Zambrano and a decent prospect for Contreras. The white sox love project pitchers

I just thought of a ridiculous five - way deal.

Baltimore gets Contreras;
Boston gets Crisp;
Cleveland gets Kearns;
Cincy gets Clement;
Chicago WS get D.Cabrera, D. Riske.

Sox trade Contreras to Oakland for Barry Zito. Sox then trade Zito to the Cubs for Matt Murton and Rich Hill.

Why not just keep him? You could never have enough starting pitching.(Look at the Yankees last year, with Aaron Small and Chacon being saviors.)

Although if they do trade him, I like the idea of trying to get Daniel Cabrera from the O's to replace Contreras or even Vasquez in a year. I think the O's might be hardpressed to give up on Cabrera considering they just got the best pitching coach in the game and probably would want to see if he could work with Cabrera.

I can't see him go to Houston because Houston needs a bat and they would probably have to give up a bat to get Contreras.

I only could see him go to the Mets for Cliff Floyd and a prospect, but the Mets might be reluctant to trade a power bat like Floyd because right and left field would be a weak spot in the line up. Unless they re-open the Manny talks and a 3 team deal with the White Sox getting Floyd, and a prospect, the Mets getting Manny, and the Red Sox getting Contreras, Milledge, and Victor Diaz.

I like the Contreras-Burrell trade a lot,even though it would be tough to trade Burrell right now after last season and who knows how old Contreras really is.

Cubbies in my stove,
Kevin Millar and Daniel Cabrera for Contreras? I do like Cabrera but the Sox have no need for Millar since they picked up Mackowiak. If the O's threw in Jay Gibbons instead of Millar I think the trade might be decent for both sides.

Cabrera is ten times better the Contreras. Younger and has much more potential. You guys are dreaming!!!!

Personally I would rather have Cabrera then Contreras. A cabrera and Gibbons trade would be great for the white sox

I have a trade that value (talent) wise I think is fair and would help both teams because I know this team has a surplus of OF but this would never work because of their payroll. My trade would be Jose Conteras for Carl Crawford straight up. Crawford is signed through 08 and will make 2.5 mil this year. Contreras is on the hook for 8 mil I believe this year and is up at the end of the year. The only way legitimately this could happen would be if the Sox threw in some cash to cover Contreras. I know KW wants pitching back but this team is plenty deep in pitching even without Contreras. The D-rays have a surplus of OF's with Gathright, Gomes, Baldelli, and Delmon Young is on his way. They definitely need the pitching. Crawford would give the Sox a legitimate and still young CF. Pods and Crawford would easily be the best 1-2 baserunning combo in baseball. Not to mention Crawford hits for a good avg, has blossoming power, he hit 15 HRs last year and I think he will hit 20 HRs this year. This gives Ozzie the speed he wanted in the #2 hole and This would also allow the Sox to move Iguchi down in the order like they have talked about this winter. I realize this trade is pretty much a pipedream but assuming it could be done and Thome comes back healthy. In terms of balance of speed, power, righty and lefty hitters, avg etc, I'll put a White Sox lineup of Podsednik, Crawford, Konerko, Thome, Dye, Iguchi, Pierzynski, Crede and Uribe up against any other one in baseball. This of course already combined with probably the best starting rotation in the game.

You guys want Marquis for Contreras? thats just dumb. Marquis aint even good all hes good for is hitting and thats pretty bad for someone whose a pitcher.

some of these ideas are pretty out there. maybe im mistaken but it looks like somebody suggested that cleveland would trade riske and crisp for kearns. personally i dont think they should trade contreras unless someone was going to overpay. its pretty obvious everyone is still somewhat skeptical so just keep him. its entirely possible they may need another arm in the pen this year so having that many starters is not a big deal. if it all does work out then contreras would probably have more value at the trade deadline than he does now.

You guys are dreaming if you think the O's would part with budding star D-Cab for an aging pitcher in the last year of his contract. And you want us to throw in a guy who could hit 30HRs and 100RBI in Gibbons? Do some of you even think about what you post before you post it?

Contreras only makes sense for a team in need of one more SP that could possibly get them over the hump this year and into the WS. The O's are not going to the WS this year. But we have young pitching that could anchor a run in 2007 or 2008.

I would look to a team like the Angels, Dodgers, or maybe the Cards as a team who could use a solid pitcher and who could make a run this year. I wouldnt expect much more than some top prospects though.

Look the Mets deffenitey should do everything in the power to get Contreras. We got as much money as anyone around. We need a legitimate # 3 starter. We should ship Victor Diaz, John Maine, Brian Bannister for him. Then sign him to an extension!!!!!!

Steven,
Well I think the whole idea of Rumor saying to propose trades was to think of any and everything while trying to keep it logical. I realize there are some problems with my proposal but I'm just going off of the D-Rays needing pitching and having a ton of OFS (forgot to mention Huff earlier) and not only OFs but good young OFs with someone like Delmon Young having potentially a higher ceiling than Crawford and someone like Gathright being able to step in and at least in the leadoff role minus the power fill Crawford's role. I realize money wise my trade is pretty much a no way, but I was looking just in terms of need. The D-rays really need pitching, and have a ton of good young kids in the OFs at this level and the minors. As for your idea of having a surplus, it actually looks like that's what will happen. I read in one of the Chicago papers today (southtown or herald) the sox plan right now is go to with Buehrle, Garcia, Contreras, Garland and Vazquez in the rotation and McCarthy will start the year in the bullpen. Personally while this is good for the bullpen, I would love to see them unload Contreras for one proven major leaguer (OF preferably) and a decent prospect if it isnt a real good major leaguer. Contreras contract is up after this year and it sounds like he has priced himself out of the Sox range. It's really a no win situation for the Sox to keep him. If he's real good like 2nd half last year, then he definitely will be out of their price range when the offseason comes. If he reverts back to his 1st half and 04, you dont want him starting anyway so let someone else have him. I have enough trust in McCarthy that he could handle the 4 or 5 spot. He has control, changes speeds and showed alot of poise in shutting out Texas and Boston on the road last year in a pennant race when the White Sox needed wins big time.

Cubbies in my Stove:

Kevin Millar cannot play CF (unless it's on a D league softball team) and hasn't played 3b since 2002, and has never played the position for more than 13 games in a season. He's a 1st baseman (which the Sox have 2 already) and part time LF'r these days. But basically he's a DH that doesn't hit that well anymore. And before I get blasted on this, you would think that I would have nothing but good things to say because I went to the same college as him, Lamar University. So your trade could not go down ever.

Plus Rumor's proposed trade does make sense for the Phillies as it's a trade out of necessity. They need a good starting pitcher, preferably one that can eat up some innings to keep from over exposing a potentially bad bullpen. And they keep Abreu, the better all around outfielder.

I like David Dellucci or Gary Matthews and a mid level prospect for Contreras. Texas has a surplus of outfielders and is trying to revamp their rotation. And it gives ChiSox another option in case Anderson doesn't work out.

I would keep the pitching for now. There is no immediate need with the White Sox but over the course of 162 games, there will be whether its the more likely scenario of a starter going down or a key bat/position player.

Alex:

"We always have Barry Zito to turn to. Im thinking we send Diaz, Xavier Nady, Maine for Zito. We then just bring up Lastings Milledge and put him in right field."

Yeah, because the A's are in desperate need for two more outfielders.

"i dont think the white sox are a threat anymore since they dont have a power bat"

Your right....because what? Konerko hits like a girl? It's not about power, it's about a well rounded complete team. Which the White Sox are, and which the Mets aren't.


"Houston can move Berkman to 1B and have Burke/Borchard platoon in RF."

If Burke could throw well enough to play RF, he'd be playing short, so that the Astros could boot the worst offensive SS in the game.

Alex,
I'm not sure where you get the idea that the White Sox dont have a power bat anymore. They resigned Konerko and assuming Thome can come back healthy, they have arguably the best lefty power hitter in the ten years on their team. Him and Konerko could hit more HRs than any other 3-4 combo in baseball. I say could cause it's gonna take a helluva effort to beat what Manny (assuming he stays) and Ortiz will do. In fact Alex alot of people including myself believe the White Sox team today is better than the one that played for much of the regular season and won the World Series last year. Vazquez is probably a better #5 than El Duque. A whole year of Bobby Jenks and all reports indicate Hermanson's back is better plus Brandon McCarthy in the bullpen at least to me means the White Sox will have a stronger bullpen than last year. If Garland and Contreras come close to last year then look out. If someone sucks or gets hurt, McCarthy is right there and in my mind more than capable to fill in as a starter. Pitching is the key my friend (no offense something the Mets havent seemed to figure out the last few years) and the White Sox pitching could arguably be better than it was last year. Their lineup as long as Thome can come back is heads and tails better than it was last year. Anderson is a question mark but he has the pedigree to succeed and has done well at every minor league level. I'm not sure if you made your comment because Thomas signed yesterday but in case you missed it, Frank played about a whopping 25 games last year and contributed little to the White Sox season and absolutely nothing in the playoffs. Like I said pitching is the key to winning especially in the playoffs and looking at the White Sox staff as a whole, it could be better than last year.

"If Burke could throw well enough to play RF, he'd be playing short, so that the Astros could boot the worst offensive SS in the game."

Yes, but Everett is among the best defensive shortstops in the game, and any offense from that position (unless you're the Yankees) is a bonus. Plus Burke is supposedly going to replace Biggio at 2B when he retires..

If Burke's arm is that horrible, slide Tavares to RF, put Preston Wilson in CF and Burke/Borchard to LF. Borchard/Lamb can also play 1B if necessary, so Berkman can still play a little RF.

"Cabrera is ten times better the Contreras. Younger and has much more potential. You guys are dreaming!!!!"

Did anybody watch the 2nd half of last season and the playoffs? There aren't many pitchers in baseball that can shut down a team like Jose Contreras when he's on and you might be getting a Cy Young candidate for next season if he actually got a handle on pitching in the majors last year and can continue.

I'm not fully aware of the Dodgers pitching prospects, but giving up a really good one or two for Contreras would seem like a good fit for both sides.

"Yes, but Everett is among the best defensive shortstops in the game, and any offense from that position (unless you're the Yankees) is a bonus. "

This isn't the 80's

"Look no matter what the White Sox aint winning another world series... the Mets are gonna dominate the crap outta baseball"

Yeah, you and what pitching staff?

How bout Contreras for Javy Lopez and Rodrigo Lopez, but only if Contreras signs at least a one year extension.

i remember seein kenny williams every morning last summer at the caribu coffee on the UIC campus.

The first day i recognized him i shook his hand and said go cubs!

sox do not need OF, they need ML RP or top prospects for contreras, who can they get, beats me.

You should've hit KW up for some trade rumors around the league and then sent 'em my way.

Rem, they do too need an outfield bat you jerk. Podzilla ain't a regular.

pods isnt a regular??? he is the best lead off man in the AL HAH....then young stud prospect anderson isnt going anywhere, dye has option for 3rd year, if they trade for a starting OF its a waste, damn fool

Contreras for Burrell is, as I said the last time you floated this ugly proposal a few weeks ago, a slap in the face to the Phillies and their fans. I'd think twice about trading Jason Michaels for Contreras.

I really doubt it's a slap in the face of anyone. Like I've said many times, when neither side of a trade can agree on which team wins, it probably is a fair deal.

So we know that Jason Michaels's baseball value in real life is equal to an overpaid reliever.

Yet somehow he's barely equal to a top-rotation starter in your mind...that's obvious bias my friend.

Hmmm Pods is the best leadoff hitter in the AL? That would imply that either he gets on base more than any other leadoff hitter and/or that he steals a lot of bases at a successful rate.

OBP

Jeter - .389
Brian Roberts - .387
Dellucci - .367
Damon - .366
Lugo - .362
DeJesus - .359
Figgins - .352
Pods - .351

Keep in mind that all those ranked above Pods actually hit more than zero HR. Some more than 20.

Pods Stolen base success rate: 72%. The Sox would've literally been better off if he hadn't attempted a single steal.

That's not worthy of a starting OF spot.

yea who would want a guy who stole 70bases in a lead off spot and only started to get thrown out after an injury.....id hate having a guy who would steal 2nd and 3rd after leading off with a walk or single....jeter leading off is a joke, there isnt one player on their id take over pods except MAYBE damon but hes gettin up in age and his overpaid. and not to mention how off balance pods on the base paths makes pitchers, it is hilarious watching pitchers freak out with him on first

contreras is possibly the most dominating pitcher in baseball right now. id say gettin just pat burrell for him is a rip off. no one could touch contreras second half of the season and no one sees this trend dropping off. you better get a mccarthy calibur prospect for mccarthy or young starter for him

Scott "Pods" Podsednick = Vince Coleman with less power and speed.

Why not Contreras and Uribe for Rollins and a reliever. Rollins is a better fielder and hitter than Uribe and we already have holes in our bullpen. Not that the Phillies would let go of Rollins but it's an idea.

I think everybody is way overrating Contreras these days--the typical response to a playoff hero, especially after a strong half season. I know he has always been thought of as having that sort of ability, so I don't discount that he might have finally achieved a new level of performance. And anybody would love to have him. The Orlando Hernandez factor is troubling, though. Is it really coincidence that Contreras finally performed at that level when El Duque was there to mentor him? And lacking El Duque's presence, can Contreras sustain the new level of performance? Again, I'm not saying he can't. I understand that he has that kinf of talent. But before we go talking about Contreras as a #1 sort of pitcher, wouldn't it be nice to see him put it together for at least a full season? I think, for instance, that Baltimore would be utterly foolish to include Daniel Cabrera in a trade for Contreras, especially given Contreras's walk-year status. How good Cabrera will be remains to be seen, of course. But he has every bit as much talent as Contreras, is much younger, has much better contract status (in terms of dollars and in terms of team control in upcoming years). Plus, Baltimore's not going to win anything this year--the only reason Cabrera plus for Contreras could conceivably make sense.

Contreras for Billingsley :)

...and if they'd let us squeeze Broxton out of it too, but I don't really see that happening.

Firstly, Rumor, thanks for holding discussions about Chicago's World Championship team.

This should be simple - KW wants pitching back so let's go back to Philly.

Contreras for Madsen, Gio and Haigwood - the 2 prospects that the Sox sent them.

Philly needs a frontline starter badly. Madsen can be the long man in the pen or be a starter if needed. He's exactly what the Sox need.

Contreras and decent prospect (Gustavo Molina?) to Tampa Bay for Aubrey Huff and mid-level LHP prospect. Genius.

sox send Contreras & cash to the Cubs.
Cubs send Koronka & Neifi Perez.

Hendry should propose this immediately!

Thank you to our lone season ticket holder, Bign Wide.

How about Wainwright/Bigbie for Contreras? Wainwright's a decent add to the depleted CWS minor league arms. Bigbie is an insurance against Anderson not being ready. Honestly, I'm not terribly well versed with the Cards' minors, but if there's a decent young IF (preferably 2B to replace Iguchi in a few), who could be tossed in, I think it would make sense for both clubs. I know Reyes would seem ready and the rest of the staff is written in stone, but this frees the Cards up to move Marquis elsewhere, perhaps for a decent young OF (jeremy reed? - meche/pineiro simply can't stay healthy and moyer's ancient or maybe maquis-to-baltimore, tho he had problems with mazzone. ). Marquis might be a fit in NYM, and he could probably fetch Victor Diaz, and Diaz/Contreras is an upgrade to the club over Marquis/Bigbie, even if it does cost Wainwright and the minor leaguer.

Contreras to the Cards just makes sense. Does this make any sense to you, RumorMonger?

Perhaps Marquis for Nady/minor leaguer like Scobie or maybe even Bowman is more realistic? ( I realize Bowman has waaaay more upside, but he's also not close, which I think Scobie is.)
Maybe Nady/Kaz Matsui packaged together? It allows the mets to keep Heilman in there as an ace reliever, which he has to realize is the best way to be.

MATT and DARIN:

I think the both of u need to get a room. First off the white sox had a hell of a lucky year. They will not be in the playoffs this year either. Since i live in New York and am a Mets fan...i also know the other team across town, The YANKEES!!!! With the aquistion of Damon to join there already stacked lineup, they will blow through your white sox pitchers with ease. Why dont you look at what Carlos Delgado did last year boys: 33 HR 115 RBI .300 average. Not only do we have better players but will get to the world series.

Lineup
Reyes
Lo Duca
Beltran
Delgado
Wright
Floyd
Diaz
Hernandez

u cant compete with that lineup boys....keep dreaming of another world series cuz thats as far as u gettin

I think Bedard and Javy Lopez for Contreras would be fair for both the Orioles and Soxs

Geoff H: That'd be a great deal for the Sox, and if they could pull it off, more power too them. But why would Philly trade the future of its franchise, who happens to be one of the best leadoff hitters and one of the best shortstops in baseball to get a rent-a-pitcher who has 1/2 of a good season under his belt since defecting from Cuba? I know Philly needs starting pitching, but I don't think they are quite ready to make that deal.

Nobody is expecting Contreras to drop off??? Maybe nobody at Quigley's or Taps is projecting him to drop off, but almost everyone that doesn't live on the South Side of Chicago expects for him to drop off big time.

Greg: Agree 100% I shuddered when I read all of the suggestions saying Cabrera would be equal value. Cabrera may never amount to anything, but given his raw talent and the presence of possibly the greatest pitching coach in the last few decades, I'd be willing to bet Cabrera emerges as one of the best pitchers in the AL in the next couple of years. For all of the Orioles' blunders, they snagged a great one in Mazzone.

Randy: Basically what you're saying, then, is that Thome and Ryan Madson is fair value for Aaron Rowand. While some people may agree, given the possibility that Thome is coming off a serious injury (in addition to his bad back), I don't think Gillick would agree to that.

Remember, the Phillies had their outfield full. While Rowand is a balls-to-the-walls defender, he wasn't a necessity for Philadelphia. The Sox, on the other hand, NEEDED an insurance policy in case Konerko didn't come back. Even though they knew they had the inside track, the Sox NEEDED a lefty power-bat. The Phillies reason for trading Thome was as much of a salary-dump as it was to get a good CF in return.

So, I don't understand why Philadelphia would give up 3 inexpensive players (although 2 of them are not at the MLB level yet) for another expensive contract. Just doesn't seem to make sense for Philadelphia at all on any level, given the fact that Contreras can't (or at least shouldn't) be considered a pitcher the calibre of Schilling (which is what Gillick is looking for) based on 1/2 of season.

Contreras for John Maine and X. Nady.

"The YANKEES!!!! With the aquistion of Damon to join there already stacked lineup, they will blow through your white sox pitchers with ease."

I strongly disagree!
As a fan of BOTH teams they are about evenly match. However if I had to put my money on it (2006 ALCS, SoX in Seven against the Yanks)
Great Pitching beats Great Hitting!

Unless Pavano has an amazing year, the SoX are the favorite to beat the Yanks

Darin:

I dont think u kno anything about baseball. ASk anyone about the METS and they'll say that they are going to dominate. I think u underestimate them way too much. How arent they well rounded? Tell me because im going to state the facts for you. We have a dominate closer in Billy Wagner. Not only did he have a 1.51 ERA and 38 saves, but did that in Phillies tiny stadium. We have an All-Star catcher in Paul Lo Duca, who by the way has a .283 average and can hit anywhere in the lineup. We have speed with every guys except Delgado, but he makes up for it. Reyes had 60 SB!!!! David Wright had a fantastic year, and will be a superstar in this league. Beltran will deffenitley bounce back, since the pressure will be off him since the other players were broth in. Cliff Floyd fianlly played to his potential with 34 HR and 98 RBI, and flashed some nice glove. Our Bullpen dramatically got a hell of a lot better. And with Omar in search of a starter....Zito or Contreras. And the comment you made about the Athletics needing another outfeild, well yea this is a team that collects prospects, know what your talking about buddy:)

Yo A-Rod:

You sound like a bandwagon litle women. U kno that.

"As a fan of BOTH teams"

You cant be fan of both teams, what happened you married a girl whos father was a white sox fan and u needed to prove your testorone and say o yea im a white sox fan too. SHIT!!! Dude i hate the yanks and i kno they are gonna kick the crap outta everyone except the mets and angels

Uribe is a better fielder than Rollins for sure...

Fantsy Baseball question

Whos do u think will go in the top five picks??

I thought a good trade would be Contreras for Dallas McPherson and Scott Shields.
For one, it works out well for the Angel's who could use another pitcher, and likely don't want to pay a stupid amount of money for Weaver. Also, the Angels have Brandon Wood who could play third if they needed him to.

The White Sox are worried about the health of Crede's back, and they could use another strong bat coming off the bench. They also likely won't be able to resign Crede after the 2007 season because the team basically refuses to negotiate with Boras, who is Crede's agent. With Sheilds, the Sox could use another strong arm in the bullpen. They have some great arms already, but not the depth they had last year. I'm not concerned that they only have one lefty because Janks and Pollite were fantastic against lefties last season, and Cotts was unhuman in the 2nd half.

Personally however, I wouldn't trade Contreras until midway through the season. Give McCarthy some spot starts in the first half, and don't throw a huge workload on him. A half season of starting would make for a good progression to a full time starter for 2007. His spot starts could also spell relief for White Sox pitchers that threw huge amounts of innings last year.
I also think it's stupid to trade Contreras now because who knows what holes might become apparent in the team by July that aren't apparent right now. Maybe someone important suffers a big injury, who knows. I'd keep Contreras as trade insurance.

Im kind of confused by a lot of the stuff being thrown around here. The common theme in baseball is, you dont pay a guy for last year, you pay him for what hes done the last three years. Contreras was great in the second half last year, but I think people are overrating his second half. Check out these numbers, post all star break:

Santana: 9-2, 1.59 ERA
McCarthy: 3-1, 1.69 ERA
Millwood: 6-4, 2.25 ERA
Lackey: 8-1, 2.57 ERA
F Hernandez: 4-4, 2.67 ERA
Kazmir: 7-2, 2.79 ERA
Chacon: 7-3, 2.85
Towers: 7-5, 2.91
Contreras: 11-2, 2.96 ERA

ERA-wise, he was only the 9th best pitcher in the AL after the break. Even with his 3.61 ERA overall last season, his career ERA is still a less than stellar 4.28. He has a 4.66 ERA in night games (not a good thing for a baseball pitcher not playing in Wrigley), and his only two months of the season with sub 4 ERA's are August and September, albeit thats the best time to get hot. That said, hes been wildly inconsistent, and I dont know if you can proclaim him to be an ace based on 100 innings of performance.

Contreras for Burrell makes a lot of sense. They have Michaels to move into LF if he's not going to Cleveland and Madson stays in the 'pen.

Cardinals would make sense, but I can't see it without Reyes involved. Which would be bad.

Rollins is a better all around offensive player than Uribe though. He has the potential for 12 HR/65 RBI/110 Runs/40 SB every season, is still young, and by market standards, is signed to a relatively cheap contract, at 8 million per for the next four seasons. I dont think Furcal is worth 5 million more per season.

EVERYONE:

How far does everyone think the Mets will get this year???

I wouldn't say Uribe is a better fielder "for sure", especially if you look at their fielding stats last year. Maybe you're referring to the easily measurable "intangibles".

Jimmy Rollins:

I way overrated i think in my opnion. I feel he doesnt do things for his team to win. Instead of using his speed he uses his power bat. He really needs to bat 1st not 5th...wat r u paying him al this money for??

Alright, the for sure part was probably a little much.

Jose Reyes is better than Uribe and Rollins

hahah, Reyes is the most one dimensional player in baseball. Look at last season

2005:

Reyes: .273/.300/.386, 41 trbles, 7 HR, 58 RBI, 60/75 in SB, 99 runs
Rollins: .290/.338/.431, 49 trbles, 12 HR, 54 RBI, 41/47 in SB, 115 runs.

Please.

Contreras is not good people he is a head case. He would make a good #4 or 5 pitcher but no one can guarantee without his buddy el duque if he will even perform and I know all of you will point to last year look at the years before that last year was an anomaly and the guy is in his upper 30's

Alex,
I'll take the White Sox pitching staff over the Mets any day of the week. As for the Yankees tearing apart the White Sox pitching staff, while it is possible, unfortunately the Yankee staff is so bad, if you can hold the Yanks under 6 runs there's a good chance you'll win. i've got to hand it to the two New York teams. Perhaps no two teams in baseball have spent more money and basically been bigger disappointments over the past few years. I know the Yanks make the playoffs every year but to basically choke like no other team has choked before in 04 and then go out in the first round is disappointing when you spend 90 million more than the next team. With all the great Yankee moves this offseason the biggest being Damon. If I remember correctly, the Yankees didnt seem to have too many offensive problems last year, it was the pitching they lacked in. And Alex Mr.New York expert how did they improve that area in the offseason? The same question could be said of the Mets. How did they improve their pitching this offseason? Yeah Delgado is great but my guess is moving into a pitcher's park and not hitting in the warm climate all year his stats will go down. Also How's the Beltran signing working out for you? Kaz Matsui another genius move. The Mets winning the world series this year. LOL come on April fool's day is still a couple months away. Looking at that Mets roster if they got to the World Series that would be a big accomplishment for that rag tag group.

Another thing is my experience with dealing with Met fans is very limited and I have to go off only what my Cub fan friends tell me of it, but in short I guess I'm beginning to see why I hear all the time they are obnoxious and conceited.

The Yankees improved there pitching by basically revamping there entire bullpen. Not to mention they were probably the second worst hit team by injuries how good would the White Sox been if they lost there #2,3,4, and 5 pitchers for lengths of time

Kyle,
Well that's part of the problem when you commit to pay over a 100 million to guys that get broken down every year like Kevin Brown, Pavano, and Jaret Wright (who everyone in baseball knew was a stupid signing) As for the Yankees revamping their bullpen. Mike Myers, cant argue should be a decent signing. As for Farnsworth, we've seen that act here in Chicago. I'm a Sox fan, but saw him blow plenty of Cub games while he was here. My guess is if he couldnt handle the pressure in Chicago, there is no way he'll handle it in New York. My guess is by June, he'll be getting booed so bad and the Yankee fans will want to run him out of town after he gives up lead after lead setting up for Rivera. In my opinion a definite downgrade from Gordon. To answer your question about how the Sox would do if they lost their 2,3,4, and 5 starters. The answer would be the same for every team that happens to, not that good, but then again the Sox dont overpay for broken down, over the hill, starting pitchers either like the Yanks. I expect more the same this year from that group. I'll say Pavano is done for the year by July, Wright sometime in June and Yankee fans get ready for a special surprise this year. Randy Johnson with an ERA over 4 as him being 40 something now will finally lose it this year. That being said since the Yanks play in the second weakest division in baseball besides the NL West, they will still probably win the division unless Beckett and Schilling stay healthy all year.

Contreras and Brian Andersen for Jim Edmonds.

Have some of you ever heard about a little thing called paragraphs? It makes reading much easier.

Are you serious? Contreras and Anderson for a guy who is in the twilight of his career? Ouch.

Bal gets: Contreras
Chi gets: Bedard

Wow. A lot of junk suggestions here so far.

As a life-long Sox fan, I want no part of Gibbons or Floyd. They're both terribly overrated.

The most often suggested trade I've seen is Contreras for Abreau, with balancing factors included (like cash going back to the Sox to balance the salaries, and an OF prospect going to Philly). THAT is an example of a good trade.

The Carl Crawford deal looks to be too much in favor of the Sox, but Gathright and pitching prospects?

And which dance partners can the Sox find? Forget the AL Central. Forget the Cubs. Forget any player that has Scott Boras as an agent. Forget Toronto, and most likely forget the rest of the AL. Forget small market teams. Basically, you've end up left with the Mets and Phillies.

The Sox need a lefty reliever, and high level pitching prospects. They'd settle for a hitter who can run and has a high OBP. The Mets don't have any of that, the Phillies do. So...

Aaron Fultz, Bobby Abreau and cash, for Contreras, Arnie Munoz, an outfield prospect and another low-level prospect.

CUBS SOX TRADE
This will never happen buy i say.....

Cubs Get: Contreras
Sox Get: Hairston and JWilliams

How about Fultz, Abreu and cash for Contreras and Josh Fields.

nick williams is just crazy enough to pull something like that.

as far as this whole mets thing going on in here. i know mets fans are excited they may actually be able to contend but dominate give me a break. i think you could make an argument that they could be one of the better teams but only if they get zito and pedro is healthy. if they dont get zito which isnt all that likely at this point and pedro doesnt get healthy then their pitching staff is that bad.

rollins is a nice player but whoever said he is a great leadoff hitter needs to do some obp homework. move rollins out of that ballpark hes not much better than reyes but at least he is durable.

those who keep throwing out lopez to white soxs proposals need to stop and think for a sec. where are they going to play him? at his price i dont know why they would want him as a backup catcher/pinch hitter and he doesnt want to play first not to mention the white soxs already have two players there. im guessing its optimistic oriole fans.

Bobby Abreu is a perennial all-star who could hit 40-40 contreras is an aging head case who could just as easily have a 5 era this year as a 3 era. Contreras is a #4 starter people Abreu is the best player on the phillies. To get abreu they would need to send alot more then contreras. Note Abreu for Zito was discussed this offseason now that is a fair trade Zito is way out of contreras' league

Zito is way out of Contreras league?

Seems to me that Zito had one great year, one good year, and 4 very mediocre years. Contreras had a much better year last year than Zito. Beane has no chance of getting an Abreau, because Oakland just can't spend that much.

The deal that xxJamesxx posted above looks pretty good for both sides, but the Sox would still need a good amount of cash in return.

I understand the Mets need Contreras, but Williams will never (I repeat NEVER) get Milledge. Shoot, i'm willing to bet Minaya wouldn't part with him for Zito, so why the hell would he do it for some 34-yo starter?

Rollins' biggest problem in the past has been inconsistency, but after the AS break last season, his OB% was around .360, and that includes August, when he hit .188. THis year will be the marker to determine if hes made adjustments and figured himself out in that respect. However, if Rollins "isnt a leadoff hitter", than Reyes certainly isnt either. His OB % is downright terrible.

For the Phillies, one of the big pluses of trading Abreu is freeing up some of that money, so I dont know how much they could conceivably send to Chicago.

The White Sox pitching coach Don Cooper said McCarthy is in the bullpen to start the year. This move makes much more sense than any trade proposed.

Contreras had a much better year last year than Zito.
Do you watch baseball?

Zito: 14-13 228 IP 171K's 3.86 ERA

Contreras: 15-7 205 IP 154K's 3.61 ERA

They were about even last year, that was Zito's second worst season ERA, while it was contreras' best be a long shot. Not to mention Zito is 6 yrs younger. Last year was a fluke COntreras is a mediocre pitcher with head issues Zito is one of the top 5 lefties in baseball

Looking at 2005 VORP, Zito edged Contreras by a tiny margin, 41.8 to 41.5. They were essentially equally valuable in 2005.

What I call bias, my friend, is to describe a pitcher who admits to 35 and is probably 40, and has had exactly one good year in the Major Leagues, as a "top rotation" starter. And if proposing that a club part with an everyday player ten years this pitcher's junior, who is good for 30-40 home runs and well over 100 RBI, isn't a slap in the face then I don't know what is.

Looking at 2005 VORP, Zito edged Contreras by a tiny margin, 41.8 to 41.5. They were essentially equally valuable in 2005.

I understand that completely but that was a bad year for Zito while it was a career year for contreras I was merely arguing that Zito carries way more trade value then contreras. The people are talking about contreras like he could be a staffs ace when he is basically a decent 4 pitcher

Michael, you've sidestepped the salary/free agency issues at play here first of all. Burrell makes more money than Paul Konerko. Burrell has had exactly two full very good seasons, so his track record isn't much deeper than Contreras's.

I think the whole Contreras is older than he says thing is tired. Player ages were verified after 9/11, and a wrinkly face and a bunch of speculation doesn't make a guy 40.

Kyle, I agree, Zito's consistency and age makes him an easy choice over Contreras.

The bottom line for me is, if I'm going to give up a player like Burrell, it'll have to be either for a for a better pitcher than Contreras (Buherle or Garland), or for a sweeter pot (say, Brandon McCarthy and Josh Fields along with Contreras). For that package you can have Danny Haigwood back as well.

Reality Check to Mets Fans:

The mets will dominate with there mediocre starting pitching.

How did the $119 million man work out last year?
.266 average? was it 18 hrs?

How about Mo Vaughn?

Speaking of the person who said the white sox were lucky...you are right, we all know it takes some luck to win a world series...just like it takes luck for Cliff Floyd to stay healthy for a whole seaon....
Lucky like, will Pedro's arm stay attached....

Don't get me wrong, the mets have very much improved. But if you look at White Sox teams from a few years ago, there was a bunch of big power hitters that consistently got beat by Minnesota, a weaker offense with excellent pitching. So just wait until the season starts before outspoken mets fans go setting up for the world series parade.

I mean, Mo Vaughn....

I'm the biggest White Sox fan there is but if someone told me we could do Jose Contreras for Barry Zito straight up, I'd want to make sure Beane didnt have a gun to his head when the deal goes down. As Rumor said Zito is both more consistent, younger and he's also a lefty. I'll take him in a minute over Contreras. As another possible trade for Contreras, what about Delucci and a pitching prospect, does Texas have any though?

Clearly, Jeff, you are a mental midget.

The trade for Mo Vaughn actually worked to our favor. We dumped a terrible contract (Appier) for a better one. Do the Math. I did. The Mets came out better than the Angels. I don't hear anyone picking on them.

"Don't get me wrong, the mets have very much improved."
Don't get me wrong, but you are a shitwit.

Let me get this straight, you want me to believe Williams GM wants a Top 15 ML prospect for a 34 yo starter with one good year?

"I mean, Mo Vaughn"
Ibid.

From the shitwit mental midget:

Call me what you must, but good pitching will always beat a good offense. How do you think the astros got to the World Series?

I certainly understand the rage from some mets fans, its tought living in the shadows of the big brother in town, I am from chicago and know. But anyhow, thank you for the edearing names and I'll will smile knowing the sox have a ring and the mets are still the mets.

"For example, my proposal would be Contreras for Pat Burrell."

Yet another crack-induced fantasy. I repeat... since when does one good year a solid pitcher make? Burrell has produced well for several years!

UGH!

Erikfromdabronx:

No need to get pissy just because you are a Mets fan.

It could be worse, you could be a fan of...well if I think of any team worse than the Mets I will let you know.

what about Delucci and a pitching prospect, does Texas have any though?

The Rangers have some very good pitching prospects but Texas has been so happy with finally developing pitchers that I dont think they would take that trade.

So far in my opinion Burrell for Contreras has been the best trade for both sides. Burrell is a decent outfielder as Contreras is a decent pitcher

Erick, go back on the meds.

Burrell has two great years and one average year to his resume, along with one absolutely disasterous year. I guess his good years still outnumber Contreras, but his contract is bloated.

"Call me what you must, but good pitching will always beat a good offense. How do you think the astros got to the World Series?"

Are you a cliche machine or a junior version of Omar Minaya? It's downright uncanny... you are cliche'ing at a 12th grade level!!!

"I certainly understand the rage from some mets fans, its tought living in the shadows of the big brother in town,"

Wrong again, kemosabe. I have a problem with idiots who spout cliches on subjects which they clearly haven't done research.

"It could be worse, you could be a fan of...well if I think of any team worse than the Mets I will let you know"

Stop playing with yourself and stay on topic!

"Erick, go back on the meds."
My name is Erik. I am not Norwegian.

"Burrell has two great years and one average year to his resume, along with one absolutely disasterous year. I guess his good years still outnumber Contreras, but his contract is bloated."

You used bloated and Contreras in the same sentence. Is that your subconscius talking?

Contreras is likely closer to 38 than 34. Gillick would have to be nuts... and i'd like nothing more than to see him on the Phillies, especially in that bandbox.

Enough with the "Pissed Mets fan" rubbish. It's incredibly tiresome. Stay on topic, or GET OUT.

Problem is the walk year issue with Contreras reducing his value...what do the ChiSox need? Apparently, not mroe starting pitchers.

How about Contreras-McCarthy-Uribe for Tejada-Rodrigo Lopez and Javy Lopez?

Burrell's contract is bloated, not necessarily Contreras.

Contreras to the Phils for Ryan Madson and a top 10 prospect

You guys are talking about good pitching consistently beating a good offense, well I think we are going to see if that holds true during the upcoming WBC. The two teams that are clear favorites to go head to head in the championship are the Dominican Republic and Team USA; The Dominican Republic has the most insane 1-9 line up while the USA is sporting some fantastic pitching. Here's how I project the teams will stack up:

Dominican Republic:

2B/SS 1. Furcal
2B/SS 2. Soriano/ Tejada
RF 3. Guerrero
1B 4. Pujols
LF 5. Man-Ram
DH 6. Ortiz
3B 7. Aramis Ramirez
CF 8. Guillen
C 9. Olivo

1. B. Colon
2. P. Martinez
3. Jorge Sosa
4. E. Santana
5. O. Perez

What can I say about that lineup?? Lets see, when your 7 hitter is Aramis Ramirez, a guy who has batted .300+ with 30 HRs+ the last two seasons, I don't think you are going to have a hard time producing runs. (All of you who wondering why I would put Vlad third over Pujols, there isn't a reason, switch them up if you want.) Say what you will, that is the best offense ever run out onto a diamond. There pitching on the other hand, is merely average. They have two great arms up top, but then will struggle mightly beyond that, especially in the 4 and 5 holes.

Team USA:

CF 1. Damon
SS 2. M. Young/Jeter
3B 3. A-Rod
DH 4. M. Teixeira
1B 5. D. Lee
LF 6. M. Ensberg
RF 7. M. Holliday/Francuer
C 8. J. Varitek
2B 9. D. Jeter/M. Young

1. R. Clemens
2. D. Willis
3. J. Peavy
4. A. Pettitte
5. R. Halladay/Myers

That quality of our pitching staff is on par with the Dominican's offense. Andy Pettitte is the freakin 4th starter!! Its obvious that were going to tear opponents like Canada into shreds. Of course Team USA's offense is probably better than most in the MLB right now, but its far cry from that of the the DR, especially after the 5th spot (I put D. Lee 5th because he is historically a slow starter.)

So there you have it, probably the most pure form of oustanding pitching vs. ridiculous offense you will ever see. Oh, by the way, all of those people who are calling the WBC a "joke created by Bud Selig used to make money" has officially been read their rights.

P.S. Monger, you should really put a post about the WBC up on the front board, it deserves more attention. (feel free to use any of what I put here as you please.)

Here I have been bashing contreras so hers a decent offer for both sides

Jose Contreras for Hank Blalock throw in a couple low minor leaguers on both sides to even it up

Rumor: Hell yeah, the "for sure" part was a bit much, but I'd take Rollins as a fielder over Uribe. Period. Not only did Rollins have a higher fielding percentage and less errors than Uribe last year, but if you average their time at shortstop (Rollins has played a game or two at second, and Uribe has played some second base, third base and outfield in the past), Rollins has less errors than Uribe, averages about 2 less errors per year than Uribe, and has a higher fielding percentage than Uribe. I know you've stated before that fielding percentage may be overrated, but what are you going to do to back up Uribe as a better defender than Rollins (considering the fact that Rollins gets to more balls and has much, MUCH smoother footwork than Uribe, who looks sloppy as hell out there (although he has a cannon for an arm))?

I still don't get why nobody's questioning why Williams wants a starter back. If that's the case, why not just keep Contreras?

Being a Yankee fan, I'm all for the "keep an extra starter" strategy. One will surely falter or get hurt at some point.

But if you must trade Contreras, you've got to address a need. Where can the Sox upgrade? The problem with this team is they have a lot of good, serviceable, likable players (or maybe that balance is a position; I mean it's a problem for making a deal like this work).

CF is the obvious place to upgrade, but you've got 2 good prospects (personally I think Owens has a better chance of success than Anderson). 3rd? How much better will you get than Crede, esp. with defense considered? I was going to propose Blaylock, but was turned off by his (for him) awful 2005 - maybe worse than Crede offensively!

So how about short? Uribe's OBP makes him a huge liability. What could we add to Contreras to get Tejada? Contreras, Uribe, and Owens or Anderson? Actually I think they did propose something like that and were turned down...

I'm drawing a blank for other ML shortstops, so how about prospects. Brandon Wood? Can't see the Angels doing it for 1 year of Contreras but what if we include Anderson/Owens in there? Then Wood can potentially replace either Uribe or Crede.

Sorry so long...just thinking out loud...

CONTRERAS FOR CRAIG COUNSELL AND BRANDON LYON. OZZIE LOVES THE EXTRA BULLPEN ARMS AND COUNSELL CAN BACKUP ANY POSITION AND IS CLUTCH

No way are they trading Wood he is like the 3rd best prospect in baseball but you are right shortstop and center are there weak spots really though the whole outfield is mediocre. Maybe a contreras for mench and a pitching prospect trade???

Most of you are not considering the White Sox philosophies in making these suggestions.

Firstly, Pods was great for the Sox last year and they want him back or someone who can do the same thing.

Ozzie and KW want players that play good defense and players that have speed whenever possible.

They also want quality pitching and more quality pitching.

The Sox don't NEED more offense now. They WON THE WORLD SERIES with less offense.

KW is very comfortable with Brian Anderson and, soon everyone will see why.

The Sox want pitching back for Contreras. Probably a young swingman with big potential and a top pitching prospect is what it will take.

The white sox almost have to trade contreras. He had a career year and will probably not duplicate it.
I would say call Texas and offer Contreras and a low level pitching prospect for Mench, one of those starterish players that texas has maybe Benoit and an upper level pitching prospect. Personally I think that would be a rip off for Texas but that would be great for the White Sox

Randy - explain why they want pitching back? To save money? Isn't McCarthy a young swingman with big potential? Couldn't Contreras be the same thing? He was dominant as a reliever for the Yankees in the 03 postseason.

I don't care what anybody says, I'm not comfortable with Anderson and his 3 to 1 K/BB ratio (admittedly it was the worst, by far, of his career). I have heard good things about his defense though.

I can understand getting a pitching prospect back more than a ML-ready starter. One of the Dodgers' arms? Or what about Guzman (unlikely) or LaRoche (slightly more likely, I would think).

But picking teams' 3rd best prospects at random isn't as fun as ML players. Hey, could Crede play short? If so, Contreras and Uribe for Blalock as the core of a deal makes a little sense.

Where does Mench play? Over Pods in Left? I don't think he can play center. What about Wilkerson? But I don't really want to replace Owens/Anderson unless it's a substantial upgrade.

Where does Mench play? Over Pods in Left? I don't think he can play center. What about Wilkerson? But I don't really want to replace Owens/Anderson unless it's a substantial upgrade.

Where does Mench play? Over Pods in Left? I don't think he can play center. What about Wilkerson? But I don't really want to replace Owens/Anderson unless it's a substantial upgrade.

Mench is currently the right fielder on the depth chart and I believe Wilkerson can play all 3 outfield positions

overheard talk of contreras going to giants with a catching prospect for some pitcher. this should be in the papers and espn soon i think.

To the guy up to that thinks Kevin Millar (????) and Daniel Cabrerra is a fair trade for Jose Contreras needs to have the mush in his head checked. Thank god you are too stupid to be a GM. Kevin Millar is a fat waste that has never and will never amount to jack sh!t in MLB. Jose Contreras may be slightly overrated, but he's worth more than a no-position nobody. Retard.

Hey BmoreBoy. You are another retard. What the F@ck possesses u to think Gibbons could put up 30HR and 100RBI????? Do u even watch ur pathetic team??? Cabrerra won't amount to sh!t and gibbons will never break 30 HRs. Please dont ever tryout to be on ESPN. Retard.

A lot of these trade ideas are ridiculous. Based on these offers, the ChiSox fans are thinking that Contreras is Bob Gibson Lite. For the sake of argument let's assume that Contreras needed a year or two just to get acclimated to the majors and last year was when he really started to assert his career norms which we should expect more of in the next few years. Assuming all of those things, Contreras still is old and in the last year of his contract. What team is going to give up their top young pitcher and/or Contract Year former Cy Young (Zito)?

The deals for Cabrera are unrealistic. He's a much younger pitcher with some experience and a boatload of potential to go with his 98 mph FB. If the Os trade him for one year of a more expensive Contreras (esp. since all FAs avoid B'more like the plague) they are doomed. And, to throw in a few decnt players on top is ridiculous. All of the Zito deals are unrealistic too. Zito has a current streak of 5 consecutive seasons with 200 IP and a career ERA of 3.50 at the ripe age of 27.

Let's assume roles were reversed. Would ChiSox fans be so willing to deal McCarthy for a player who turned in a similar year like Jeff Suppan or Tom Glavine? Would they throw in Uribe into the mix to even out the difference in experience? Would they trade a Contract Year Buerhle for a mixture of parts?

Contreras had a fine year but it wasn't an elite year on par with a Clemens, Johan, or Willis. Let's stay realistic, guys.

Agreed, Jonathan. These seem like nice video-game trades. But to be honest, Contreras is at least 50-times more valuable to the ChiSox -- where he's one of the closest things they have to a marquee name, and where he's in a Latino-friendly clubhouse -- than to any other time, which sees him as 35, possessing half a good seasons under his belt and carrying a helluva lotta emotional baggage. I'd expect nothing more than a backup catcher for him, though I think he's awesome.

Thank you Diego and Jonathan finally some voices of reason

Whoops, I meant "to any other team." I think we're looking at another Millwood-for-Estrada deal, if we see anything.

It took a 130 comments before objectivity crept its way into this post. The idea of this Monger scenerio is to be realistic, that doesn't mean trading away all of the bumps on your team for the player you covet most.

And whats this all about:

"To the guy up to that thinks Kevin Millar (????) and Daniel Cabrerra is a fair trade for Jose Contreras needs to have the mush in his head checked. Thank god you are too stupid to be a GM. Kevin Millar is a fat waste that has never and will never amount to jack sh!t in MLB. Jose Contreras may be slightly overrated, but he's worth more than a no-position nobody. Retard."

"Hey BmoreBoy. You are another retard. What the F@ck possesses u to think Gibbons could put up 30HR and 100RBI????? Do u even watch ur pathetic team??? Cabrerra won't amount to sh!t and gibbons will never break 30 HRs. Please dont ever tryout to be on ESPN. Retard."

Posted by: whataretard | January 26, 2006 at 07:23 PM

Now that is some sound reasoning!

Monger didn't you post that you needed writers for the HoopsBuzz site....

whataretard, You'll easily find that this site is not about how to live and function in a world suffering w/ Tourettes Syndrome, but the disscusion of MLB trade rumors.

Rumormonger its getting to rough in here for me.

Thank you Diego and Jonathan finally some voices of reason

who would have thought a simple thread about contreras trade ideas could get this ridiculous. basically it seems to all boil down to mets fans are excited cause they may have finally spent enough money to not suck but they are way overdoing it. also am i the only one that is surprised there are still oriole fans? anyway i really havent seen much of anything worthwhile on here but some of the trades to texas would at least seem to make sense on a level. sorry monger your idea is good on the surface but you have to know it wont happen. there is no way the phillies deal burrell after last year for only contreras. they would rather unload abreus contract than burrells for whatever reason. they want to get rid of michaels and he will bring the bullpen help they need. they do need a starter but there isnt much worth getting out there at least at the price you would have to pay.

The bottomline for me is that most ChiSox fans have emotionally bonded with Contreras. To that I say: good for them! Having said that, I think that attachment tends to inflate his value in the eyes of ChiSox fans.

In baseball trades, you're balancing out things like stats, ages, potential/experience, contract, and positional scarcity. In those categories, I think Contreras rates fairly high than most. And, I can easily say that Contreras projects as an above-average starter. If I'm going to be optimistic about it, I'll even give you that he could sustain that for a 2-3 more years in spite of his age. Having said that, that projection means nothing in a contract year, and even less for a team like the Orioles who are hard-pressed to find FAs come to Camden. Why would the Os trade a player who has the potential to be good for longer and cheaper? Consider that since the Orioles dumped their system wrecking GMs of the 90s, their primary farm system strategy of the past 3 years is to develop pitching from within. Why would they turn around and dump one of those players when it might finally pay off? Why would they dump him for an aging player? Why would they also throw in a decent OF power bat as well? The key to trading is becoming aquainted with your trade partner's needs, not just looking at their roster imagining their high potential players in your uniforms.

I think the ChiSox is over-valuing Contreras. But, if the worst case scenario for the ChiSox is that they go into the season with Contreras as their 6th pitcher, I think they'll be fine. Personally, I don't think ChiSox fans would be happy with what Contreras would get in the trade market so I think they are better off having a surplus of pitching. These things have a way of changing very fast. An injury or two here or there and suddenly you can be thanking your lucky stars for not pulling off a trade.

No need for a trade; the teams want to give the Sox their junk; Contreras will help this "lucky" team (that abjectly dominated the playoffs and the AL for 3/4 of the season) repeat.

yeah williams knows what he has in contreras. thats why he wants a starter back in the deal. contreras is good for their purposes but has a lot of intangibles against him right now. if he can get a desperate team to give up a younger, cheaper pitcher that he can hold onto longer he would love to take that chance. that being said it doesnt seem like there are takers right now.

E.Astacio or W.Rodriguez and prospect from the Astros for Contreras. Both got a good deal amount of playtime last season for rookies (even some playoff experience) and should be better their second year out. Astros need a proven pitcher, especially with the Clemens saga still playing out. But know this, Clemens will NOT play ANYWHERE else but Houston should he decide to come back. And he is almost certainly going to come back.

contreras and crede for david wright and steve trachsel

It's silly to say that the Sox, by holding out for a lot for Contreras, are "overvaluing" him - he's the number number 1 starter on the world champions. He has a lot of value to the White Sox. What is implied with such statements is that the Sox should trade for the value he brings to the average other team - that, of course, would be a critical mistake. There is no "equilibrium value" in baseball - Jose is worth more to a contender, and isn't worth much to a rebuilder.
It may be the case that Jose brings a higher value to the Sox, looking to repeat, than he does to other teams, then the Sox should keep him.
That would be my vote, before getting involved with the cliff floyds et al.
As for Podsednik, again, he has good value ON THE SOX - and the reason is because he gets on base 35% of the time, which makes him a decent lead of hitter. What other lead off hitters are out there for trade? Power doesn't mean a whole lot when you bat first - there's no one to drive in (or the 8,9 hitters who don't get on base much).

Whataretard... great name - it really fits you well. Maybe you should try checking some stats before you blast someone.

Gibbons already had a 100RBI season in 2003. He also hit 28HRs in '02, 23 in '03 and 26 in '05. He has had some injuries the past few years that kept him from getting a lot of ABs. You really think its that far fetched for him to go from 26 HR to 30 HR?

As for Cabrera - He had the 4th highest strikeouts per 9 innings (K/9) of any starting pitcher in 2005. If you dont believe he is due for a breakout season do a Google search and you will find tons of articles speculating the same thing.

Now please stop cluttering up this space with worthless crap - some people here actually want to have real conversation about possible trade ideas.

If you've followed the Sox in recent years then you know what had killed them before last year was going into each season with only 3 or 4 solid starters.

They had teams that scored a lot of runs but the back end of the rotation was so weak that they couldn't win more than 80 some games and usually finished 2nd.

Last year KW FINALLY figured out that he needs 5 solid starters to start the season and an insurance 6th starter somewhere. So, what happens ? They win the WORLD SERIES.

KW will not make that mistake again. So, if he trades Contreras and doesn't get a potential starter back then McCarthy is in the rotation and there is no viable 6th starter in case of injury - he WILL NOT do this, especially after all of the innnings that the staff threw last year.

Also,after trading Marte and Vizcaino and not replacing them - and then moving McCarthy to the pen, the pen becomes very thin.

I repeat KW will only trade Contreras for pitching. They don't need Mench. They WANT Pods in left and they have a DH. They highly value defense and speed.

Randy - points all taken. But then I say what's the point? You only trade 2 players at the same position if there is something fundamentally different between the 2. What would be different from Contreras? Someone cheaper and younger. And obviously you're not going to get someone cheaper and younger who is as good as Contreras.

Taking a younger starter with potential would make sense for a rebuilding team, but not the defending champions.

And, for the record, I don't think they're overvaluing him that much. He proved he can dominate, under pressure. Is he a sure thing to duplicate his 2nd half of 05? Of course not, but he's better than 90% of other starters, not making THAT much money (compared to what other starters are getting on the free agent market, he should easily be making $10-12 Million).

If the guy above who said he wasn't worth more than a backup catcher wasn't joking, he needs to get his head examined.

but he's better than 90% of other starters

You are kidding right. You can't expect him to re-produce his second half season. Everything is working against him. He no longer has his buddy El Duque. He is going to have to fight for the 5th starter position. There will now be media all over chicago winning the world series.

Contreras is and will always be a headcase I am not arguing that his stuff is good I am saying that I would bet money that his era ends on the wrong side of 4 this year

You're right - my math was off, I was thinking I'd rank him around 20th or so - so that number should have been 80% (no idea how I came up with the idea that there would be ~200 and not ~100 qualified starters).

Still, I bet that 80% number is still too high for you, so we'll disagree. I'd bet his ERA is below 4, and anyone with his 2nd half gets extra points for showing the dominance.

I have no doubt that Contreras was in cuba and could be dominant but I attribute a lot of his performance last year to his comfort level going up he has proven he doesnt like media attention in new york. And as defending world series champs there will be a lot of that in chicago. Also I attribute a lot of his success to El Duque and that comfort factor is gone for Arizona. IMO Contreras will show flashes of brilliance but on the whole will be just mediocre. He will be nice to have as a fifth starter though.

Biggio3000,
No offense but after watching Wandy Rodriguez and Eziekl Astacio in the World Series, I think I'd rather have Taveras and a prospect for Contreras. I know Astacio especially is or was at one time a top prospect, I dont know a whole lot about Wandy Rodriguez. I suppose the deal could happen with either Astacio or Rodriguez but that better be one hell of a prospect. I think the Sox would actually want Backe if they had their pick of Houston starters. Face it they arent going to get Oswalt, no matter what. They probably wont get Pettitte either nor do I think they would want to take on his salary. I actually have heard a couple rumors pop up (not on this site) about Contreras going to the Cardinals for Anthony Reyes and an OF (I've heard either Bigbie or Taguchi) Maybe Rumor or someone else could verify if any of this is true.

Kyle,
As a Sox fan I hope you are wrong about Contreras, but my thinking to how he will perform this year is along the lines of what you said which is why I want the Sox to try and trade him and get the best deal they can for him now before he lowers his own value. There is always the possibility we are wrong and the guy just has confidence now and will come close to duplicating his second half performance but history says even a good, consistent pitcher would have a tough time going 11-2 over another 13 game stretch. Only time will tell but the Sox really cant win with trying to re-sign him. If he is somehow really good again this year, he almost definitely is out of the Sox price range and if he sucks and reverts back to the old Jose Contreras we dont want him starting anyway.

I actually have heard a couple rumors pop up (not on this site) about Contreras going to the Cardinals for Anthony Reyes and an OF (I've heard either Bigbie or Taguchi) Maybe Rumor or someone else could verify if any of this is true.

That makes sense I mean I think its a bad deal for the Cards but they always seem reluctant to play young pitchers so that would be a good trade except for the fact that the Cardinals are already weak in left field

Matt:

I can agree that on paper or in the World Series the two (Zeke Astacio and Wandy Rodriquez) didn't show much. But Zeke should not be discounted just yet. He had a horrible start last year, getting rocked in his first two months and was sent back down to the minors. He responded by coming back and providing solid starts much better than expected from an unproven rookie.

Astacio's ERA by month in '05
April - 10.80
May - 10.98
mid July - 3.00
Aug - 4.32
Sept - 4.42

Through the second half of the season posted a mid 4's era. That's not bad, not great, but I wouldn't throw him under the bus just yet. Plus Baseball America has him rated higher than the Cubs "phenom" Rich Hill. - Now let the Cubs fans begin the "you don't know anything about baseball" because I'm not a Cubs (or Mets) fan.

Kyle -

If they can get Reyes AND a useful OF, they should jump on it. Not sure if they'll keep both Owens and Anderson, or what the plans for Borchard are, but an experienced backup OF would seem to be a good fit.

I'm personally a huge Reyes fan so if Williams wants to make the "Contreras for cheaper, younger starter" type of deal, this is as good as it gets.

I totally agree I think Reyes is going to be good BUT the Cardinals seem to have an aversion to playing young pitchers Reyes and Taguchi would be a good deal for Contreras and not that badly balanced

Yeah, I agree. I guess I'm saying I don't think the Cardinals SHOULD do that, but I think there's a chance they WOULD.

Also OF-wise the two teams match up well - Chicago has a glut of inexperienced OF with good potential, whereas STL has a glut of decent, experienced, backup-type OF.

Maybe Borchard and Contreras for Taguchi and Reyes (though I was admittedly surprised as to how good Taguchi's 05 numbers were) so STL may not even want to trade him.

Even without the pitchers, would the Sox do Borchard for Taguchi or Bigbie? Would the Cardinals?

I don't know how far Borchard has fallen out of favor though...

To Matt and every other fruit cake White Sox Fan:

You guys think ur something special dont you? Matt u r a piece of shit that knows nothing about baseball...in fact u prob have never played the game. Do all white sox fans talk like assholes from san fran...fagots. Yo i hear ozzie guillen is getting deported biatch!!!

Alex,
Another classy New Yorker you are. I played baseball for 15 years and while I never played past college, I consider myself a pretty knowledgeable fan. Whether the stuff I post is right or wrong, stupid or smart, at least the majority of my posts dont contain profanity, personal shots at other posters, and usually just a lot of BS like yours do. To answer your question, I dont consider myself any more special than you. You are one of those special cases if you know what I mean Alex. I bet if we looked at each of your posts. They would contain a random, factless statement about the Mets going all the way in 06, followed by a a personal attack on every person that disagrees with you usually laced with profanity, and then some type of racist or racially implied statement, lastly followed by a reference to homosexuality. Makes me wonder if you swing that way since you reference it all the time. I have no problem with people that disagree I've gone it at pretty good with a number of bloggers on this site, but I've got to hand it to you, you are probably the most classless, profane, and generally unknowledgeable of them all. Rumor any way you could ban Alex and his IP address? There really is no room on the site for someone who adds nothing in terms of relevant baseball discussion, uses profanity all the time and makes racially motivated comments.

Alex you have to calm down first off everyone is going to be slightly biased about there team of choice ya Matt may overvalue Contreras but listening to you i would think the mets were going to win 120 games you need to respect everyones opinions on here

Kyle,
Yeah I am biased towards the White Sox thats why I usually state on most of my posts I'm a White Sox fan so people can take what I say with that in mind. I understand he's a big Mets fan but the garbage with every post is not needed. State your opinion, back it up the best you can and leave it at that. There's no reason for the extra stuff. I know I probably do overvalue Contreras, but right now the White Sox are dealing from a position of strength and have leverage over most of the teams they are thinking of trading with. They are really one of two teams that has a starting pitching surplus while most every other team is looking for starting pitching. I want KW and the Sox to ask for the world in return for Contreras cause you never know you just might find a team that bites. Keep in mind the Sox dont have to trade Contreras. The worst that happens is they go into 06 with 5 starters and McCarthy in the pen.

Matt,

I am totally with you this is a forum you have to expect biases and sometimes they are warranted Contreras aint great but he IS a veteran starter in a market that all that is left is weaver.

There is also no need to make personal attacks. This is a baseball talk if you think someone proposed a dumb trade simply state it and back it up with some facts but there is no need to attack the person with name calling that is just playin childish

Matt, done and done.

Yes bobo, I'm serious. Jose Contreras is this year's Esteban Loiaza with a World Series ring. And the Sox were *lucky* to dupe the Yankees into dumping Contreras into their lap.

The best rumor I've heard yet is Contreras for Kaz Matsui.

Contreras's PECOTA is a 4.29 ERA and 1.31 WHIP. PECOTA really dislikes the Sox staff for some reason.

A few ideas to be tossed around:
Sox get: Prior
Cubs get: Vasquez and Contreras

Sox get: Griffey
Reds get: Contreras

Sox get: Dunn
Reds get: Contreras, Anderson prospect.

Diego,
Where did you hear that rumor? I hope KW isnt stupid enough to pull the trigger on Contreras for Kaz Matsui. The Sox have no place to play Matsui plus he's terribly overpaid. I dont know if the Sox were lucky to dupe the Yankees into dumping him for Loazia. I think it was one of those situations where Contreras was never going to succeed in NY no matter what. Also maybe this shows Don Cooper is a much better pitching coach than Mel Stottylmire was. I'm not really sure. While Cashman is pretty good with trades, I think the Randy Johnson deal will eventually come back to bite the Yanks and some of his recent free agent signings specifically the trifecta of pitchers from last year can be questioned, but overall he might have the toughest job in baseball working for the Boss. Yes I realize the man gets nearly unlimited funds to work with but the expectations with that team are also sky high every year (as they should be) You look at a guy like say former D-rays GM Chuck LaMar, yes the guy was inept and didnt have a whole lot of money to work with, but thats one of the reasons he stayed with that team so long, no expectations.

How about sending him in a package to the Dodgers for Jeff Kent or JD Drew?

Soxfan#1,
If the sox trade Contreras to the Dodgers, I actually would prefer to see them grab one or two of those great Dodger pitching prospects (Billingsley or Broxton or I wouldnt mind taking a flyer on someone like Dioneer Navarro and stick him in the minors while AJ is still here) and possibly just some depth at OF (someone like Werth or even Lofton) To me Kent is overpaid and is on the downside of his career. Plus I'm not sure where the Sox would play him with Iguchi at 2B, Konerko at 1B, and Thome as DH. J.D. Drew when healthy is pretty good but that's the problem he is hardly healthy and in my opinion the Dodgers overpaid him horribly at over 9 mil a year. Another guy though, that I'm not sure what kind of speed he would be able to have to cover ground in the OF. Plus for the price of Drew and the assumed usual time on the DL, I think it could very well be possible Brian Anderson puts up decent numbers. I really think the White Sox should trade Contreras for as good a pitching prospect they can get and then just a role type OF that is good defensively and can supply a little bit of offense off the bench. Someone like So Taguchi, Jayson Werth etc) I hear alot of people saying the White Sox need help in the bullpen and to be honest, I couldnt disagree more. You have to assume that if Jenks can close in the playoffs and World Series, he can do it in the regular season. Alot of people questioned his poise and ability to pitch alot off of surgery but he proved pretty much last year he's healthy. Look at his velocity and there were some days he pitched as much as 2-3 innings, and pitched on back to back days. To me the key is Hermanson, he has to come back from his back injury and all reports I have heard is that he is progressing well and should be fine come spring training. Then Politte. The right side of the bullpen is set. McCarthy in long relief, Politte in the 7th, Hermanson in the 8th, Jenks in the 9th. The biggest guy in that bullpen is Neal Cotts, he has to be strong and while he is the only lefty left from last year. I believe KW has made some nice signings and one of them will end up being ok as the second lefty out of the pen. Guys from the minors include Arnie Munoz, Paulino Reynoso, Corwin Malone. From other teams Chad Bentz, Stephen Randolph and the guy I want everyone to watch in spring training is this Javier Lopez. I think he will be the one to win the second lefty spot. This guy is a weird, twisting, contorting, submarine-sidearmer ala Mike Myers.

I heard a rumor the METS are close to sending Kaz Matsui and John Maine to the White Sox for Jose Contreras, my cousin is the edito of the New York Times.

hey

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