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Thanks to reader Nick for the tip. A rough translation of this article:
David Ortiz is nearing a four-year, $50MM contract extension with the Red Sox. The source has family ties to Ortiz. Ortiz's agency, SFX declined to comment.
Posted on March 31, 2006 at 11:35 AM in Boston Red Sox, David Ortiz | Permalink
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Ortiz is an incredible hitter & should be paid as such. $12.5 million a year for a 1-way player is overkill though. The only way it seems remotely justifiable is the fact he's been a bargain the past few years.
March 31, 2006 at 12:25 PM
Ortiz is much more valueable to the the team than his awesome hitting. He deserves this money.
You don't think a 2nd place (yeah right he should've won) MVP player deserves 12.5 $ in this market?
March 31, 2006 at 12:28 PM
I think it is a good deal when you consider what Konerko got. While Konerko does play in the field he does typically hit for a considerably lower average then Ortiz has and Ortiz has been an incredibly clutch performer and a great teammate and clubhouse guy on a largely dysfunctional team
March 31, 2006 at 12:31 PM
Liriano Got picked up for a DWI last night the twins are says it's not going to affect his postion with the club.
March 31, 2006 at 01:07 PM
Konerko hasn't been an incredibly clutch performer and a great teammate and clubhouse guy?
Apparently the grand slam he hit in the World Series, or 1st inning 3 run HR's in games 3 & 4 of the ALCS wasn't clutch enough for the Subway guy.
And I suppose he was named captain because he's a clubhouse cancer.
Bottom line... Great deal for both colors of Sox.
jive talking |
March 31, 2006 at 01:10 PM
One thing that always bugs me about the Red Sox fans is that they really dont understand clutch. They seem to think the only valuable thing is a 9th inning walk off. Personally I would rather have a 3 run homer in the first inning to put the team up than a 9th inning walk off any game. And there is no way Ortiz deserved the MVP over A-Rod. A-Rod was worth like 6 more wins that Papi was.
March 31, 2006 at 01:35 PM
Sorry, but comparing Ortiz to Konerko is a joke. Konerko is an excellent hitter, but Ortiz is one of the best in the game. $12 is about right, maybe slightly high for Konerko, but it's a bargain for Ortiz.
Konerko's passable defense is largely irrelevant here; Ortiz's dominance offensively is not.
March 31, 2006 at 01:40 PM
Re: ARod vs. Ortiz. I'm a Yankee fan, and I can't even call ARod the TEAM's MVP. Yes, defense counts for something (at least when it's not at 1B) but when the guy in question is not even the #1 guy on your team that you'd want up in a big situation, he's not the league MVP.
March 31, 2006 at 01:43 PM
bobo I think our difference here is in the defination of MVP. Ortiz is the best clutch performer in baseball but that doesnt make him the MVP. The MVP should be the player with the most value to his team. Just look at there respective VORP's
A-Rod had a 99.7 the second highest in baseball
Ortiz had a 85.8
Yes, Ortiz won some games with his late inning heroics but he also cost the Sox games by not being able to field at all. Another way to look at it is look at there replacments. If Ortiz had gone down last year either Manny would have played DH and Kapler would have gone to the outfield or Olerud could have stepped in at DH. If A-Rod went down we would have put either Womack or Russ Johnson at 3rd thats a huge drop off. In big situations A-Rod is not as good as Ortiz but overall A-Rod is BY FAR the superior player he is a 5 tool player who could contend for a gold glove this year. Ortiz hits. If you were drafting a baseball team who would you take first?
March 31, 2006 at 01:51 PM
Yes, I agree we differ in our definition.
Statistically, did ARod have better numbers (combining hitting and fielding)? Yes.
But, and this is largely subjective, I have to place a much higher value on offensive performance in big situations.
Looking at situational stats (RISP, RISP with 2 outs) confirms my gut feeling - ARod was good in 2005, but nothing special.
Close and late? ARod was good (better than I would have guessed) at .938 OPS, but Ortiz was other-worldly at 1.293).
I know the stats aren't perfect, but they underscore the point. Take away ARod's stats and replace them with a league-average 3B (or if you will, whoever the yankees would have replaced him with, which would NOT have been either Johnson or Womack), and do the same with Ortiz, and I bet the Red Sox lose more wins than the Yankees do.
March 31, 2006 at 02:07 PM
Well that was the point of the the VORP stats that is there value over a replacement player.
The way I look at it Ortiz's late game edge is balanced by the face that A-Rod plays the field and in that case you can just compare there offensive production and A-Rod just produced better that Ortiz. Ortiz's only edges were in doubles and RBI.
Heres a random stat too Ortiz grounded into 5 more double plays than A-Rod did
March 31, 2006 at 02:12 PM
I guess my point is that you can't just add up stats, you have to look at their meaning and context (basically when they occurred).
ARod had a couple big RBI games early in the season, right? And they were both in blowouts if I remember correctly. So those performances should be weighted much less than Ortiz hitting 3 run homers in games the Red Sox were losing by 2 runs.
I just think that the situations Ortiz performed in outweights ARod's defense.
March 31, 2006 at 02:15 PM
Anyone can catch a baseball. Hitting a baseball that's coming at you 90 mph, when there's 35,000 fans screaming at you, and when the games on the line is way more important. Ortiz blew AROD out of the water in terms of batting last year. AROD even admits he hasn't been clutch. Who would you pick to club the beejesus out of the ball when the games on the line?
March 31, 2006 at 02:22 PM
That is a good point A-Rod does have crazy good stats in blowouts. But that could be because he contribute to them early. Alot that works against A-Rod IMO is the lack of highlight real hits. I watched probably 100 yankees games and also watched probably 80 Red Sox games (I am a yanks fan living in boston) and while Ortiz hit a lot of monster home runs in clutch situations A-Rod contributed he got many walks and many singles he just didnt have the home runs that get you on the top plays of that evenings sportscenter. I respect Ortiz a lot but he is not a complete player he cant run he cant field and I have no clue if he can throw. A-Rod offers all of these.
Here is a good metric to see there value. RC is a bill james stat the calculates the amount of runs the player created. Ortiz created 146, the Red Sox scored 910 runs. That means Ortiz was accountable for 16% of there runs. A-Rod created 151 runs, the Yankees scored 886 runs that is 17% of there runs.
I feel like a lot of people who chose Ortiz were overvaluing his late inning production and ignoring what A-Rod did early in the game.
March 31, 2006 at 02:27 PM
"Ortiz blew AROD out of the water in terms of batting last year"
In what? Doubles? RBI's?
A-Rods offensive production was superior to Ortiz's almost across the board.
The MVP race was close and in my opinion, and that of the voters, you have to give it to arod simply based of his completeness
March 31, 2006 at 02:30 PM
"Yes, Ortiz won some games with his late inning heroics but he also cost the Sox games by not being able to field at all."
Personally I agree that Arod gets the mvp even though I am a red sox fan. Ortiz just didnt quite have the numbers to justify it. i would give the award to ortiz for his heroics but would acknowledge that was a homer pick. however, this argument makes no sense to me at all kyle. i am not sure how the DH costs his team by not being on the field to play defense(isnt that the point of the position). If it is in your teams best interest that you dont play the field because they have better defensive options then how does this hurt your team. it actually is being a better team player. maybe if ortiz demands to play the field and does a decent job he gets the mvp but costs his team a few games. i dont see how people are able to hold it against him that he does not playing the field when it makes his team better and this is mvp we are talking about. if this is a main reason arod got the mvp then the voters got it wrong.
March 31, 2006 at 03:00 PM
Yep, agreed that a 3 run HR in the first is nearly as valuable (if not more) than one in the 9th.
Looking at blowouts isn't perfect, because like you say, say the Yankees were behind, I don't know, 3-1 in the 5th. ARod comes up with the bases loaded and 2 outs, and doubles in 3 runs. Then in the 8th the Yankees score 500 runs and win 504-3. Obviously that double in the 5th was still a big hit.
I guess I'd want to see something like: OPS, weighted by situation (coming up with some scheme accounting for the number of outs, etc.), and further weighted by the score at the time.
My suspicion is that a lot of ARod's RBI came in situations that would be considered "less important" by that stat.
But, who's to say that many of Ortiz's wouldn't be as well?
It's easy to be influenced by highlights of a few amazingly clutch hits, late in the season.
But still, Ortiz gets my vote because A) my feeling is that he would do better in a stat like the above, and B) as a Yankee fan, he was the one guy I would hate to see (not Ramirez) against us, and ARod would NOT be the guy I wanted up.
March 31, 2006 at 03:00 PM
Rumormonger what does your favorite new stat say ortiz should have got?
March 31, 2006 at 03:00 PM
Just $32.175MM over the next four seasons...they see a big decline starting in '08, his age 32 season.
March 31, 2006 at 03:04 PM
I ain't nearing no new contract.
Big Poppy |
March 31, 2006 at 03:09 PM
i know this has nothing to do with big papi or the red sox, but i didnt know where else to ask this question...whats the deal with zack grenkie?
March 31, 2006 at 04:12 PM
ARod had a couple big RBI games early in the season, right? And they were both in blowouts if I remember correctly.
The thing is that the reason they were blowouts is because of ARod.
That game against the Angels? Blowout but... he knocked in 10 runs. Its his fault.
Many times he knocked in the runs himself in those blowouts. It's not like it was 15-2 against the ROyals and then hits a grandslam. He contributed to those 15 runs.
Benny Blanco |
March 31, 2006 at 04:19 PM
olney had something about greinke today. first thing i have seen that suggests he might be coming back.
March 31, 2006 at 04:28 PM
Right, but my point is that if ARod drives in all 15 runs in a 15-2 win, he should only get "credit" for 6 or 7 of them.
March 31, 2006 at 04:34 PM
David Ortiz said it's not true that he and the Red Sox are close to a four-year, $50 million deal.
According to the Boston Globe's Gordon Edes, Ortiz insisted he wasn't just playing the good soldier and not commenting because the club asked him not to, pending an official announcement. GM Theo Epstein did acknowledge that the sides have had "quiet discussions" regarding an extension.
Source: Boston.com Mar. 31 -
March 31, 2006 at 04:49 PM
People talk about how clutch Ortiz was, but the red sox were only 6-53 when trailing after 7. So how much did he really help with his clutchness? I understand he hit well in those situations, but the team still didn't win that much.
March 31, 2006 at 05:43 PM
uhh, correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t MVP mean Most Valuable Player ~ not Best Player
Take A-Rod off the Yankees and instead have say Aaron Boone at third again, what do you have? A Playoff team I imagine.
Take Ortiz off the RedSox and replace him with maybe Carl Everett. Do the Sox still make the playoffs?
Somewhere along the lines we have lost the point of the MVP award. When I was growing up it went to guys like Terry Pendleton, Kirk Gibson and Willie McGee. They didn’t have what would be considered to be the best numbers of the year, they just meant more to their team than those who had better numbers did. Hence the reason Bonds has won so many, the Pirates and Giants would have been nothing without him ~ as evident last year!
March 31, 2006 at 07:40 PM
.368 avg with runners in scoring position
led baseball with 21 game winning RBI'S
19 homeruns to tie or give the Red Sox the lead.
I am a huge Red Sox fan so i didn't miss a game the Red Sox were horrible after the 7th inning when they were losing because the middle relief for the sox could keep the other taem with in reach not because of Ortiz.
March 31, 2006 at 09:07 PM
Signed to a 4 deal= Red Sox still got The MVP for 06
April 01, 2006 at 12:39 AM
"You don't think a 2nd place (yeah right he should've won) MVP player deserves 12.5 $ in this market?"
I just realized that the winner makes double...lmao..
This past season, it was Ortiz who carried Boston into the postseason with 11 home runs and 28 RBI in September. In total, 20 of his 47 homers either tied a game, or put the Red Sox ahead in a game, with 19 of them coming in the 7th inning or later.
end of story.
April 01, 2006 at 03:11 AM
BDD Has Learned Manny Ramirez Will Retire to Brazil Before the
2006 Season Rather Than Suffer Any More Hardship in Boston
Renowned Red Sox slugging savant Manny Ramirez told a source close to BDD that he will retire from the game of baseball, effective immediately, in an attempt to avoid the publicity and restaurant harrassment that comes with playing and living in Boston. Red Sox GM Theo Epstein, who called this move a minor setback, is expected to make an official announcement this afternoon.
Ramirez, who sources say made the decision yesterday while deciding he didn't want to fly to Texas via Philadelphia, is expected to spend a year with his family in Brazil before coming back to the States to become a commentator on ESPN's Baseball Tonight. Wily Mo Pena is expected to take Manny's spot as the starting left fielder.
While most Red Sox will miss Manny's presence and right-handed power, some players privately said they had had enough of the "Manny being Manny" phenomenon that the media ate up hook, line, and sinker. David Ortiz, who will miss Manny's lineup protection the most, reportedly is not happy with the possibility of being walked 200 times this season. ... Oh, and while you are digesting this story, don't forget to check the calendar.
Rumor I got this off Bostondirtdogs.com is this true??
April 01, 2006 at 09:15 AM
its april fools there have already been made up stories that wells said he is going to retire and now manny. maybe next they will say ortiz is going to retire
April 01, 2006 at 09:26 AM
ok i was getting nervous
April 01, 2006 at 09:30 AM
dude,read the last line
April 01, 2006 at 10:14 AM
I didnt see that i was really nervous
April 01, 2006 at 04:57 PM
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