Carlos Lee to Houston

Baseball Digest Daily is reporting that Carlos Lee has agreed to a six-year deal with the Astros.  The last dollar amount I saw for this deal was $73M, and that was a five-year deal.  I figure we must be up to at least $85M now.  Back in July, it seemed ridiculous that Lee would reject a four-year, $48M deal out of hand.  Back then, I was glad the Brewers didn't spend that much on him!  But after the Juan Pierre and Gary Matthews Jr. signings, this deal doesn't look that crazy.

Now the market for bats is a much slimmer one.  Among free-agents, Barry Bonds, Mike Piazza and Cliff Floyd are among the only guys who could legitimately bat in the middle of the order, and all of them come with major question marks.  The A's, who probably can't afford Bonds, are reported to be talking about Piazza and Floyd, while several people have emailed me about reports that Floyd is about to sign with the Cubs. 

In other words, if you want an impact bat, you should consider trading for one.  Sean McAdam has a piece about who might be available, including familiar trade-bait names such as Manny Ramirez, Carl Crawford, and Pat Burrell.  And one bizarre name who doesn't belong.

UPDATE: Here's a link to the TV station reporting the Lee deal; Carlos is on the front page, at least for now.

By Jeff Sackmann

Comments

[ArodSucksAtLife]

six-year, $100 million deal.

[Rayman]

Geoff Jenkins. Hahaha, that made my day.

[eeleye99]

WHAT!!! That much.

This is great. He won't go to the orioles.

Hey a question. I had a bet that Schmidt would go to the Mariners. What are the chances? Because now the Mariners are looking at Eaton. They only have 2 real starters (King Felix and Washburn), so....I know the Dodgers were interested in him, but that's his hometown team...

[eeleye99]

And BTW, finally something happened. Things seemed to disappear since Thanksgiving...and I know they'll pick up December 1 because that's the tender deadline or something, and the winter meetings are right after that.

[NYs Maine Man]

6 years... $100 million according to ESPN.com. That's $16.67 million per year, aka almost the same deal Beltran got from the Mets.

[Kramerica Industries]

And Mann's value went up......again!

[start_wearing_purple]

Wow... never thought I'd say this, Beltran is worth waaaaay more.

[CJ]

The Houston Chronicle is reporting the contract amount as $90 million over 6 years. We will know which numbers are more accurate soon. The Astros have scheduled a press conference for this afternoon.

[tyler]

This makes Hideki Matsui's 4 year $52 million deal look like a steal

[Kramerica Industries]

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6203010

Rosenthal says its 100 million!

[NYs Maine Man]

Over 6 years, too. I mean this guy is not the butcher many make him out to be in LF, but let's be honest, he is a slug. In 2 years he'll be useless out there. Although, he may hit 45+ bombs with that short wall in LF in Houston! He's going to be an animal playing there over 81 games. Still way too much money, but this market has shaped out to be NUTS.

[NYs Maine Man]

How does Vlad's 5-year $75 million deal from a few years back look now? Teams laid off b/c of his "back problems", but that looks tremendous these days.

[kyankees07]

Lee, Berkman, Ensberg, Oswalt, and possibly Clemens and Pettitte make the Astros definet contenders.6yrs-$100 mill is about $16.67, which is what Beltran got, but Beltran is deffinitely better I think. And yes, NYs MaineMan, this market IS NUTS.

[NYs Maine Man]

After this contract there is no way Houston brings back Pettite AND Clemens. It's one or the other, if either.

[integr96]

how is it that the astros have lee, berkman, esnberg and oswalt and they are definitely contenders but the cubs have soriano, lee, ramirez, and zambrano and people say they are definitely not contenders. can someone explain that to me?? because that looks like a pretty even comparison to me.

[NYs Maine Man]

i agree w/you integr96, very comparable, especially if the astros lose Pettite & Clemens. Who becomes their # 2 starter? They are on par with the Cubs, with a tad better bullpen.

[Astros316]

NYs Maine Man, I think you got it wrong... The astros already said that they won't wait for Pettitte and Clemens and if they decide to pitch next year they will just add the extra money on to their payroll.. So if they both decide to pitch again I gotta believe it would be an in astro uniform... As for the other post... The cubs are contenders but that is if they can stay healthy.. Derrek Lee has had many problems the past 2 years,.. So your looking at Soriano, Ramirez and Zambrano as your 3 aces on the team. Without Juan Pierre, they might even bat Soriano leadoff which would waste his numbers..

[CJ]

I think the Astros will re-sign both Pettitte and Clemens if they have the opportunity to do so. The Astros' owner, McLane, views Clemens as a special exception to his normal budget. Clemens brings sell outs for every start; however, I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out be a partial season, like last year. That said, I don't know if Pettitte will retire or not.

[Astros316]

Hmm... If clemens pitches next year it will most likely be for only half the year again.. With that said, if the astros can have something in the works with Clemens to come back and do that, it would be easier to get Pettitte back.. If clemens retires though, I see Pettitte following

[integr96]

i dont really see soriano being a waste if he bats leadoff. clearly he has a lot of power as a leadoff hitter but dont you think it would be better to have him bat first so he has a guaranteed 4 AB's whereas lower in the order he only has a guaranteed 3 AB's?

[kyankees07]

I do believe the NL Central will be three team race between the Cubs,Cards, and Astros but the Cubs will fall out near the end.

[kyankees07]

BTW, I was just saying that adding Lee and Ensberg being healthy the Astros are goin to be pretty good.

[NYs Maine Man]

See, I think Pettite is thinking retirement. Rumor has it he may be interested in returning to the Yankees, but I doubt that scenerio is true because his wife does not want him to return to NY. As far as Clemens is concerned, it's a matter of whether he wants HOU or Boston. I agree, there is a chance that both will be back, especially with a signing of Lee. It shows both of those pitchers ownership is committed to winning. What I don't understand is they've had Pettite, Oswalt, and Clemens for 3 years. Every year NO ONE wants to face them in the playoffs, b/c that is rather nasty. They never added the missing ingredient, a "big bat", but not the money has presented itself to sign Carlos Lee for $16-17 million/per year? They should have re-signed Beltran with the loot 2 years ago. I don't understand, but oh well.

[integr96]

using the team roster that tim has put together and adding c. lee and c. biggio, this puts payroll up to about $85M. Is McClane willing to move payroll up to around $115M to sign both Pettitte and Clemens? Does anyone have any idea of what other holes they would have to fill?

[ScottBrosius]

Miguel Cabrerra is on the trading block?!?!?!?

Why? That can't be right.

[NYs Maine Man]

Is that right Brosius? I read that and thought the same thing, that has to be an error. If anything, I'd think they'd keep him and trade Dontrelle, considering all the young pitchers they have on the team, and coming up...

[eeleye99]

The Astros are having 50 million come off the books from Pettite, Clemens and Bagwell. If they boost their payroll up to 100 mil this year, they will be a dangerous team, despite losing Clemens if he doesn't come back.

The Cubs had a horrible year last year, but a lot was probably luck. With health and additions, they will make as big a leap as the Astros will next year too, but their starting point is from the bottom of the basement, whereas the Astros are in the middle.

[plh903]

"Now the market for bats is a much slimmer one." No pun intended, right?

[bravesrule14]

i think the astros are contenders for wat looks to be a crazy NL Central. the only team i dont see contending are the Pirates, but u never know. im also sure the wild card team will come from the Central. when u look at each team u can see that each team has a core of good players.

Astros-Lee, Berkman, Ensberg, Oswalt, and Backe.

Cubs-Soriano, ARam, DLee,and Zambrano

Brewers- Weeks, Fielder, Turnbow, Hall, and Sheets

Cardinals- Pujols, Rolen, Eckstein, Carpenter, and Duncan

Pirates- Bay, Wilson, Castillo, Duffy, and Duke

Reds- Dunn, Griffey, Phillips, Ross, and Harang

with these cores of players for each team expect it to be a wild year in the central

[ArodSucksAtLife]

Two games over .500 and you can win the World Series. I think that would make the Cubs, Brewers, Cards, Pirates and Reds all contenders.

[start_wearing_purple]

Really, how sad is it that Manny could now be the most "affordable" bat on the market? Jones and Burrell don't want to move, Wells would require probably more than just 2 top prospects and then you have to be able to sign him, Tejada may not even be shopped, and Cabrera, hell I'd sell the farm for him. With Manny you know you don't have to worry about him in 2 years.

[5TOOLER]

anybody know if there's a rule concerning trading just signed free agents?

[jballgame]

eeleye-actually, everyone starts from the same point 0-0 record.

NY's Maine Man-the Cubs have a very strong bullpen-don't know that you can say Astros is better.

Astros 316-you are incorrect. Lee only had 1 year (this year) in which he broke his wrist in a freak collision-hardly injury plagues. Additionally, a leadoff hitter only leads off 1x/game, therefore, if Soriano gets 4 ABs/game-he will have 75% of his ABs with people potentially on base.

[kyankees07]

Stros should keep Jason Hirsh on the MLB team, even after his disasterous debut.

[alexvires]

Wow,

As a Cardinal fan, I love seeing the Astros and Cubs empty their pockets in an attempt to contend with the Cardinals.

We took lazy year this year during the season, since the competition was so bad. I guess since the Cubs are trying to turn into an 80 win team (lol), and the Astros might be a little more like the Beltran team of '04, we might have to turn it up a notch.

Both clubs still are a laughing stock.

[Darin]

has anyone mentioned that the Astros signed Woody Williams too?

Jason Hirsh will be a solid #3/4/5 pitcher next year. He had one horrible outing, gettin lit up by Cincy. Without that game, he'd have a respectable 4.29 ERA.

[Darin]

alexvires:
everyone loves a conceded fan. Especially one that uses "we" and "our" when referring to their favorite team, as if they are actually part of the organization.

[Darin]

alexvires:
everyone loves a conceded fan. Especially one that uses "we" and "our" when referring to their favorite team, as if they are actually part of the organization.

[miltie]

"Additionally, a leadoff hitter only leads off 1x/game, therefore, if Soriano gets 4 ABs/game-he will have 75% of his ABs with people potentially on base."

True dat. And for once, if Soriano's obp is around what it was last year (and his obp while leading off seems to be improving every year he plays that spot consistently), the Cubs will, for the first time in 3 years mind you, have someone batting in front of Lee and A-Ram who actually gets on base.

Remember, the Cubs in 2005 actually were second in the national league in batting average and the 3-4-5 guys all hit well with runners in scoring position. The problem is it doesn't matter how good your 3-4-5's are if your 1's and 2's don't get on base. We've seen too many 1-2 guys with an obp in the 290-310 mark.

I think a one-two punch of Soriano and Murton will be better than anything we have seen in the last 3 years.

[Rayman]

Darin, you beat me to it.

Woody Williams to the Astros for 2 years, $12.5 million.

[kyankees07]

Astros 2007 Rotation

SP.Roy Oswalt
SP.Woody Williams
SP.Jason Hirsh?????
SP.Brandon Backe?????
SP.Clemens???Bucholz????Rodriguez????Pettitte???

[miltie]

"Jason Hirsh will be a solid #3/4/5 pitcher next year. He had one horrible outing, gettin lit up by Cincy. Without that game, he'd have a respectable 4.29 ERA."

Ehhh. Sort of. He got rocked against Cincy that's true. But even so, 4 out of his 9 starts were solid. The other 5 were pretty bad. I wouldn't say he's a solid anything just yet. And the fact of the matter is, he did get rocked against Cincy. You can't just ignore that game and pretend it didn't happen. Especially when he only had 9 starts last season. Therefore, we don't really know how much if an anomaly it really is. Or even if it is.

[tyler]

So the Astros finally got a big bat.... only your a year late.

they needed Carlos Lee LAST year, when they had the good starting pitching. Now their offense will be good but their rotation will suck

[zubes007]

In this market for OF, what would Beltran get if he became a free agent tomorrow???

Soriano money???

Manny money???

AROD MONEY??? (Ding ding ding...this is the correct answer!!!!!!!!)

[zubes007]

"each team has a core of good players.

Astros-Lee, Berkman, Ensberg, Oswalt, and Backe.

Cubs-Soriano, ARam, DLee,and Zambrano

Brewers- Weeks, Fielder, Turnbow, Hall, and Sheets

Cardinals- Pujols, Rolen, Eckstein, Carpenter, and Duncan

Pirates- Bay, Wilson, Castillo, Duffy, and Duke

Reds- Dunn, Griffey, Phillips, Ross, and Harang"

Backe - NO
Turnbow - NO
Eckstein - NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
Duncan - No
Wilson - NO
Castillo - NO
Duke - Maybe, not yet
Griffey - Not anymore
Ross - NO
Phillips - Not really

[Boognish]

Backe is out for 2007 recovering from Tommy John he underwent surgery late last season.

Other contenders for the Astros rotation:

Taylor Bucholz, Jason Hirsh, Matt Albers, Fernando Nieve (being groomed for the bullpen), Chris Sampson (proably better suited to long relief), and Troy Patton (probably still a year away).

Others (that shouldn't see a MLB mound): Zeke Astacio and Wandy Rodriguez.

[bobo]

The NL central is so tight it's amazing. I honestly can't pick which team is best between the Cardinals, Cubs, Astros. The Brewers have the best starting pitching and could surprise people. The Reds' offense is better than you think and their top 2 starters compare favorably to every team but Milwaukee. Pittsburgh will need everything to go perfect with their starters, but you never know.

Oh, and Soriano in the leadoff spot won't hit with runners on base. There are these things called the 8 and 9 slots in NL batting orders. That's why he had 95 RBI with 46 HR last year. He's got no business hitting first. I hope Pinella's smarter than that.

If you believe that lineup protection gets you more fastballs, then hit him 3rd, because he can't hit offspeed stuff. If not, hit him 5th and let him run a bit in front of the less powerful hitters.

[bobo]

Explain how Ross and his OPS (even allowing some regression) makes him "not a good player"? Between him and Valentin, the Reds will again have the best production from the catcher position in the NL.

Cincinatti is pretty decent at every position. I don't think they're contenders as of now, but one more bat or arm and they will be.

[bravesrule14]

HEY EVERYONE THE ASTROS JUST SIGNED TO A 2 YEAR DEAL I DONT KNOW TH AMOUNT OF MONEY YET THOUGH

[bravesrule14]

THEY SIGNED WOODY WILLIAMS

[bravesrule14]

zubes ur a complete and udder idiot. if i knew u i would personaly beat ur ass how can u say that those players arent good. every casual baseball fan should know those are good players that should be taken seriously. oh for the Pirates i 4got to mention Freddy Sanchez. oh and zubes do u know who those guys are and im almost certain ur a Cubs fan because didnt put a Cub on ur list.

[palehose35]

"Additionally, a leadoff hitter only leads off 1x/game, therefore, if Soriano gets 4 ABs/game-he will have 75% of his ABs with people potentially on base."

This is true, but how often will people actually be on base for him? He has the bottom of the lineup, including the pitcher's spot, due up before him. He's also more likely to lead off an inning more than once because the people batting behind him are more likely to make an out, and therefore end the inning. If there's two outs and Soriano's on deck, would you rather have a .280+ hitter or a .180+ hitter batting?

Basically, the leadoff position dictates the role the leadoff hitters serves in more than just the first inning.

[miltie]

"If you believe that lineup protection gets you more fastballs"

Yeah, but doesn't batting lead-off get you more fast-balls as well? Wouldn't that explain why Soriano's three best years as far as home-runs go happen to be the three years he batted lead-off all year?

If you look at his numbers his best seasons have been when he's batted in the lead-off spot. 2002-2003 and 2006. And in every one of those years he's improved his OBP. His three best seasons in terms of SLG and OPS also happen to be the three years he's batted lead-off.

I like him as a lead-off hitter.

[A2000]

Yeah ummm zubes, Eckstein is pretty amazing and Turnbow will be back to form or better next year. I agree with Bravesrule14.

[bravesrule14]

well thank u A2000. anywayz i heard that the Padres are relatively close to signing Tony Graffanino and making them there STARTING 2B. if they were to do this i would laugh so hard u would have to check me for hershey squirts. they are doing this becuz he had a good second half of the season. this goes to show u how incredibly weak the free agent market is this year. another interesting tidbit about Graffanino, last Spring Training he was almost traded for Gary Matthews Jr, but the deal never came in2 place becuz of Wilkerson's shoulder. and now Matthews has signed a 5 year 50M deal and Graffanino is about to becum the worst signing this offseason...thats baseball for ya

[wihargo]

hey about that old saying that lead-off hitters only lead off once a game: I recall a USA Today diagram from about 10 years ago that said that they were actually the most likely players to lead off an inning, doing so twice a game more than anyone else. and that the next most likely player to lead off an inning was the clean-up hitter.
And how important is it that the leadoff hitter usually bats behind the worst hitter on the team?
except of course in the late innings when teams use pinch hitters. Would it be better to bat a more well-rounded hitter there then?

[junbun]

the craziest part about this deal is, due to the structure, in the last 4 years (when he'll probably be his worst) he'll be making $18.5MM/yr!

[Astros316]

yea the central will be a crazy race next year just like this year.. But I disagree with anyone saying Lee won't produce in 4 or 5 years... He has pop in his bat and remember he plays 81 games in a park with a left field of 316.. So a popup could be a homerun. I see Lee htting 45+ HRS his first year with them

[OPERATIONSHUTDOWN]

Lee is a perfect fit hitting behind Berkman, he makes consistent contact and will put out 35-40 bombs utilizing the home park.

This contract is ridiculous, but he'll only be 35 by the final year of the contract and can be traded in the 5th year if he can't play the field. The deal is a bit hard to swallow for an Astros fan as Berkman would get 120-150 mm on the open market and he's signed to 6/85. Oswalt too, and he's at 5/73.

I think the Lee weight concerns are a bit overblown, I think it's a fun(ny) thing to talk about but it hasn't affected his performance. He's been remarkably durable, pretty nifty on the basepaths and scores a lot of runs for a guy of his stature without great on base skills.

I'd rather them to have been more prudent with the payroll and make a run at a guy like Wells in 2008, but McLane seems to have grown impatient and sees the Clemens championship window closing rapidly. I would expect Clemens to make some sort of commitment for pitching in 2007, as this is the type of move he's been asking for for 2 years running. Pettitte will be back, count on it.

[eeleye99]

I dunno where to put this but its a marginally important signing for the Jays...Barajas is everyday catcher next year.

http://www.globesports.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20061124.wspt-jays-24/GSStory/GlobeSportsBaseball/home

[bravesrule14]

so the jays signed barajas as i predicted they would, but the article says Zaun is interested in going to the Red Sox or Yankees as a back up catcher and i know that has specifically said that he wants to play everyday, so i dont know if that is true or not

[nrmax88]

As of right now these are my standings for the NL central.
1 Cards - Carpenter wins CY young, Pujols another amazing year.
2 Astros- Close second place.
3 Cinci/ Brew Crew- I think both of thhese teams will stick around relatively long. If the Brewers pitching stays healthy all year, i agree they may surprise.
5 Cubs - Made some good moves, Didnt really feel their biggest needs at all, too many wholes. I think the cubs stick around till a little after the break, then fall out.
6 Pirates- Need i say more, although they do have some bright young pitching

[miltie]

"5 Cubs - Made some good moves, Didnt really feel their biggest needs at all, too many wholes. I think the cubs stick around till a little after the break, then fall out."

I'm going to assume you meant "holes" not wholes. And by holes I'm assuming you meant their starting pitching. It is way to early to say they didn't fill their biggest holes seeing as how they're apparently not close to finishing up with moves by signing or trade. The winter meetings have not even taken place yet for crying out loud. They apparently still have plenty of money to spend. I would be shocked if they didn't grab AT LEAST 2 pitchers.

BTW, why do you think the Astros finish second? That line-up is not spectacular by any means and outside of Oswalt there's nothing really there seeing as how it doesn't look like Clemens is coming back (Williams signing today).

[bravesrule14]

i agree with nrmax, but i also agree with mittie. these are my standings

1.Cardinals- i think Carpenter, Pujols, and Rolen all hav great seasons.

Astros-with the signing of Carlos Lee, they have a pretty good lineup, plus Oswalt who is my pick to finnaly win the Cy Young

Cubs- i think they start off slow then pick it up and finisha close third. with the lineup they have and they pitching they should have, they could surprise

Reds- if Dunn can hit over .240 then they have a shot at 2nd place. with Dunn, Griffey, Ross, Harang,and Phillips. i think they start strong then fade off.

Brewers- the BrewCrew is a bunch that will bbe good for several years to come, but they are still very young and should have a .500 season

Pirates- they have a good young core, but they are the Pirates, i think they could have a winning season this year

[Mistyck]

Folks, money has been already set aside for Clemens and Pettitte's return. Carlos Lee and Woody Williams signings still leaves the Astros with over $8 million to sign other players. My guess is they'll sign Huff and trade Ensberg to the Pirates or another team for a lefty bullpen arm. Word is the Astros front office is tired of Mo's constant stance changes and lying about injuries. Ensberg is about gone. Estrada is also available since the Diamond Backs have said publicly they will use the tandem of Snyder/Montero next year at Catcher. The Astros sorely need a good hitting catcher and Estrada is still cheap enough. Astros also have the starting pitching to trade away. I wouldn't discount the rumblings of Chris Burke for Jason Jennings or Brad Lidge for Jake Westbrook just yet either.

Potential Astros 2007 Rotation:

Oswalt
Pettitte
Williams
Jennings/Westbrook
Hirsh/Sampson/Albers (Clemens mid season)

Starting lineup:

Taveras
Scott
Berkman
Lee
Huff
Biggio/Burke
Estrada/Ausmus
Everett

Bullpen of:

Lidge/Wheeler (C)
Wheeler/Qualls
Qualls/Nieve
Miller
Gonzalez/Grabow/other lefty
Springer
Borkowski if Lidge is traded

Bench of:

Lamb
Bruntlett
Burke/Biggio
Estrada/Ausmus
Palmeiro
Lane if Lidge isn't traded

[astrosfan]

Nice post Mistyck!

I think it all hinges on re-signing Huff.

If they can get Huff to re-sign, then Ensberg is gone, and I hope they can get better than a middle reliever for him, considering his career numbers.

Pettitte returning would be nice, since they know what they have with him and wouldn't need to add 2 secondary starters. The young pitching is pretty good, but not good enough to replace a Pettitte. This also takes all the pressure off a Clemens return. If he wants to come back in midseason, fine but it wont hurt the team otherwise.

Also, I wouldn't rule out the Astros being active in the January "second-chance" FA market to add catching and relief help.

[astrosfan]

Oh, Alexvires, your "championship" team in full collpase was unbelievably lucky to eek out a one-game division title against the "laughingstock" Astros. We'll see about that next year! :)

[nrmax88]

milltie relax i said as of now these would be my standings. I said as of now, not these r the final standings that cant be changed ever. I also think pettite and clemens will both be back. Miltie, dont be upset because your team is finally making moves and nobody outside of cubtown thinks they will be a playoff team. These thigns dont happen right away. From ths inside being a cub fan you probably really legitimately think the cubs will make the playoffs. Its understandable, most fans feel that way about their team. I simply dont see them making the playoffs im sorry. You can argue the point all day but its not changing my mind.

[nrmax88]

im not sure about ensberg to the pirates. Does he play other positions besides 3b though? Because last year they bucs had randa sanchez and a few other guys capable of playing 3rd. I dont know how many they still have though. I like the Estrada to the astros idea too. Sounds like a good idea to me

[alexvires]

I say laughingstock, because they were still bad enough to lose to the cardinals "in full collapse." pretty terrible...

the cardinals will most likely continue to find ways to win. and the astros and cubbies ...more specifically the cubbies...will continue to find ways to lose. :)

[Mistyck]

nrmax88: I believe the Pirates want to convert him to a 1st baseman. It may take a bit of an adjustment, but I don't doubt he'd be OK there. Besides, if he somehow regains his 2005 form, at least he'd be on a team that's not going to be contending for the division unless Mark Cuban buys them and goes on a huge spending spree.

[GoBoSox420]

It's funny how Astro fans are just assuming they're the desired destination for these players.

When Did Borowski say he wanted to be in houston? Last time I checked he was pining for the redsox to shoot him an offer

Why is it assured clemens and pettite are coming back? Other, winning teams, could offer them just as much or more

And please, Carlos Lee does not make the Astros a World Series contender

[nrmax88]

BoSox, it has already been shown the Clemens doesnt really care about who pays him the most, he likes it in houston close to his family. Pettite and clemens will both be back as astros next year. Sorry bosox but your cute little fantasy about Clemens coming back to boston and saving the day, winning them a World Series, sorry but, I just dont see it in the cards. He had the oppurunity to go to the Yankees or Redsox last year. He chose Houston. Pettie will do the same

[GoBoSox420]

I didnt say he was coming to Boston, I dont believe it will happen. I also dont think both pitchers are guaranteed to come back, I dont understand why you think your word carries so much weight.

My cute little fantasy? Are you serious man, thats the gayest thing I've heard in a long time.

[MZink]

I think that Sori batting leadoff would be a huge mistake and just plain stupid. He would be batting with the weakest hitters in front of him. He has power and should be used to drive in runs, not just score them. He could still bat in front of Lee and ARam without betting leadoff. It would be as dumb as putting DLee in the leadoff spot. Lee has power and speed, why not? Maybe because you use your best hitters to drive in the runs, not just hit solo homers. As Sori will do if you put him in the leadoff role.

[miltie]

"I think that Sori batting leadoff would be a huge mistake and just plain stupid. He would be batting with the weakest hitters in front of him."

Well you're obviously not familliar with the Cubs' problems at the top of the line-up. They're problem for the last 3 years has not been a lack of power. It's not having someone on base when Lee and Aramis are up to bat.

Once again, if you look at his numbers his best seasons have been when he's batted in the lead-off spot. 2002-2003 and 2006. And in every one of those years he's improved his OBP. His three best seasons in terms of SLG and OPS also happen to be the three years he's batted lead-off.

Yes, he would have fewer RBI opportunities, but he'll also have fewer RBI opportunities if the Cubs have a sub-par lead-off guy in front of him. Your theory seems to be always hit the power guy in the 3,4,5 part of the line-up. My theory is play the guy where he plays best. That seems to be lead-off for Soriano. If you bat him 3,4,5 his numbers will probably drop and he'll be a 260, 35, 100 guy with a 320 obp (if that). If he bats lead-off he'll hit more home-runs because he'll see more fastballs. And his career high in rbi's is 104 when he batted 5th in the line-up. He had 95 rbi's last year which is not that far off 104. So even if he bats lead-off you'll still get major production. Bottom line is, if he bats in the heart of the line-up he'll chase sliders and his home run #'s will fall. As will his batting average and obp. The stats are out there.

[nrmax88]

bosox, i know its kinda gay, but its your fantasy bro, im not here to judge

[nrmax88]

bosox why do u think your word carries so much weight. Clemens and pettie will both be back in houston, dont be mad at me im not saying you have to like it, but i dont see them going anywhere else

[miltie]

"Clemens and pettie will both be back in houston"

Care to elaborate? In other words why do you think clemens and pettite will be back. I'm basically asking for a reason or explanation other than "because i think so."

[KE632117]

BoSox-
The person was speaking of Borkowski, a long reliever in the Astros bullpen, not Borowski.

[Jimbo]

wow, bosox looks pretty stupid here, huh? And he talked a bunch of shit. hah...

[alexvires]

Mittie- Word.

nrmax- you must be high.

Yeah. Right. Clemens and Pettite. Both back. Lickity split. Or that is...Clemens maybe by July... Pettite? a very poor season this past year for the most unemotional player in baseball. If they Were to both return, would it really do that much for the astros?

no. things would probably carry on the same as they did this past season.

Pettite's got "Yankee" written all over him again, and Clemens has "Retirement," but he just hasn't figured it out yet.

and lest we forget the Brilliant acquisition of Woody Williams...lmao.

[nrmax88]

pettite and clemens will both be back in houston. Why would pettie want to go back to NY after steinbrennerlowballed him, after taking him for granted for years, and when wells and clemens left, George still tried to lowball this guy. PLus Mrs Pettite doesnt want andy pitching in NY. Pettite and clemens will be back in houston. Argue all u want. Alex, yes that would make the Astros much better. The thing is , while you are sitting here laughing at the astros, the cardinals arent doing shit. They can easily find themselves on the outside looking in next year. Sure you got your world series this year, but didnt even deserve to make the playoffs. Your team is centered around one player, granted he is a great player, but if pujols goes down, your in trouble.

[Mistyck]

>>>When Did Borowski say he wanted to be in houston?<<<

GoBoSox420: I suggested BorKOWski not Borowski...BorKOWski is an Astro relief pitcher under club contract for at least 4 more years.

[KE632117]

"they were still bad enough to lose to the cardinals "in full collapse." pretty terrible..."
Alex, as i recall the Astros swept the last 4 game series against the Cardinals. And actually, last season the record between the Astros and Cardinals was 9-7, Astros. The Astros lost to other teams during the Cardinals collapse, but they didn't lose to the Cards. Do your research.

[Mistyck]

Alex, Pettitte had a fine 2nd half of the season last year. And yes, BOTH Roger and Andy will be Astros in 2007....Can you say the same for YOUR pitching staff after Carpenter? Can you say for sure Suppan, Marquis, Mulder and Weaver will be back?

As others have already said, Clemens and Pettitte will be Astros or retire. Pettitte won't be a Yankee and Clemens won't be a Red Sox....get used to it.

The Astros, Cubs and Brewers have gotten better this off season....

[alexvires]

When I said lose, I meant, ya know, the division- not the head to head season series. I'm pretty sure if you look back through the record books, the Cubbies own their Head to Head with the Cardinals by a lot. WS wins however? hmm...

On the Cards: you're right, they have not done jack shit. It's quite annoying. The rotation? I can tell you who Won't be there. My bets are on byebye (obviously) Marquis, Sup, and Mulder. I suspect they will try to retain Weaver since they have the little turnaround success story to gloat about. Wainwright will be converted to a starter...which is risky, and I suspect they will try to insert Reyes into the rotation for the whole season...another Big risk.

That's the Cardinal's recurrent strategy though. Try to pull out the maximum amount of bang for as little buck as possible. We constantly use rookies, and possibly washed up discount starters. (Weaver and, Remember Sydney Ponson? ...stoops...) I don't much care for this strategy, but it seems to be producing... 5 Divison Championships in 6 years is it? I'm betting Jockety makes a couple of strategic moves, but no big foolish spending like the cubbies and astros.

Clemens: I'm betting he Does indeed return to the Astros, simply because they are foolish enough to keep paying lucrative money for him to only play 1/2 to 3/4 of a season. Boston is just as foolish and clearly willing to try to spend whatever they can to relive 2004.

The cubs...well... I support the cubbies spending as much money as they want. After all, they are the Cubs - and winning is not an option. I hope they do well though. It's fun to watch how they manage to screw themseleves or get screwed out of winning.

I'm still not convinced on Pettitte.

What will Houston's payroll be after all this? 140 Million?

I'm sure they'll both go wherever the cash is sweetest, and in this lucrative market, God knows where that will end up being. The Astros have proved they are willing to shell out tons of money for average players (I don't buy Lee at all. --worst move of the off season by far.) Granted Clemens and Pettitte are above average, but they won't be worth what they get paid.

Or maybe 2nd/3rd place IS worth the money.

Now, Astro fans, procede with your anger and rage about me calling Carlos Lee average.

I'll go back to basking in the Cardinals' moderately low budget, against the odds, championship.

[KE632117]

Alexvires, speaking of the Houston Astros, said-
"they were still bad enough to lose to the cardinals "in full collapse." pretty terrible..."
Then , Alexvires, in response to the statistics that the Astros beat the Cards 9-7 during the 06' season, and that the Stros', swept the Cards the last 4-game series when the Cards were in "full collapse" said, "When I said lose, I meant, ya know, the division- not the head to head season series." - Alexvires
But in actuality, any person with the education of a second grader knows that when Alexvires says, speaking of the Astros, "they were still bad enough to lose to the cardinals "in full collapse." pretty terrible..." Alexvires means, the Astros were still bad enough to lose to the cardinals "in full collapse." pretty terrible..." Regardless of his denials afterwards...his words were proven wrong, then proven uneducated, and unfounded.

[alexvires]

One Alex Vires was apparently not clear in his first statement of intended meaning. When one Alex Vires was called upon this, he clarified his intent.

My words were educated, and correct. When posting on this board, it's assumed that anyone who is is well educated in the sport of baseball. Also, any casual looker would probably have the common knowledge that the St. Louis Cardinals won the World Series. Not the Houston Astros, whom DID beat the cardinals in their head to head season series, but could not beat the Cardinals out for the National League Central Championship.

Coming in 2nd in the division conotates losing to me.

I know you Astro fans are real touchy about the whole Cardinals winning the Series thing, but cheer up. We both got swept in the previous 2 WS. Maybe next year you guys can finally Buy a WS win!

...Or maybe not.

[Mistyck]

Pettitte will be back. He's being told to see what Zito's price ends up being. He'll settle for a bit less than that. Just like Clemens, Pettitte has a sweet deal in Houston. He doesn't have to show up at Minute Maid until it's almost game time if his kids are playing.

The question I asked people last year when everyone kept saying Clemens would go to the Red Sox or Yankees was this: "Can you fly him twice a day from New York or Boston to Houston? Do you want to move the team to Houston just for him?"

That is what it's going to take for ANY team besides the Astros to land Pettitte and Clemens' services--The guarantee that they can be in Houston for their kids' games on days they are pitching. No one except the Astros can guarantee that...not even the Rangers.

I think the Cardinals are making the same mistake the Astros made last off season--they are basically standing pat. We all know how that turned out for the 'Stros. Our reason for winning the NL pennant was good pitching and extremely timely hitting. In the Cardinals 2006 WS win it was good hitting and extremely timely pitching. Let's be honest, after Carpenter, you didn't have a true #2 and #3, but the rest of the rotation stepped up when it counted just like the Astros hitters stepped up in 2005 with career years from Biggio, Ensberg and Lane.

As for Carlos Lee, no, he's no Pujols or Berkman. However, he IS better than Soriano simply because he's more clutch and doesn't strike out as much. For a lineup starved of good, clutch hitters, Lee is a Godsend. If the Astros were going to overpay for an impact bat (which they were bound to), I'm glad it's Lee instead of Soriano.

As for Houston's payroll in 2007: It will stand at 90-95 million WITH Pettitte and possibly Huff or another free agent pitcher. Clemens' money comes from a special pot not connected to the team's payroll going into opening day. By backloading Lee's contract, the Astros have assured themselves they can spend upto another $20 million and still not go over $90 million. If you want to add Clemens' money to it, it'll be around $105 million again.

[Mistyck]

>>>Maybe next year you guys can finally Buy a WS win!<<<

How much was the Cardinal payroll in 2005? How much was the Astros payroll in 2005?

The Astros didn't "BUY" the 2005 NL Pennant...in fact, the Cardinals spend more on their payroll in 2005.

[KE632117]

Alexvires- As you are speaking correctly- Would it be possible if you informed me as to what the word "conotates" means? I made the silly mistake of assuming, "When posting on this board, it's assumed that anyone who is is well educated in the sport of baseball". Silly Me...i'm not quite sure as to what that sentence means, but i do think that you are half retarded. You know if you honestly think that you are educated, then I suppose that Astros fans conotate being 2nd in the division..is that how I should use that word of yours, "conotate"?

[alexvires]

Do you amuse yourself?

Your silly quips are annoying.

I was indeed incorrect in using "conotates." The word I was looking for was, "connotes," which means, "to imply." From this word comes "connotation," which is the word I mistakenly derived "conotates" from.

SO, in baseball, when a team comes in 2nd place, that would connote losing. Would it not? Said team did not make the playoffs, let alone win the World Series.

I'm 19 years old and am much more concerned with grammar in papers then blog comment boards.

Also, for the record, if you cannot figure out what that sentence CONNOTES, then maybe you are the one who is half retarded...I will break it down nice and easy for you.

"When posting on this board, it's assumed that any one who is (posting) (,) is well educated in the sport of baseball."

So which is it? Are you stupid or just a douche bag? My money is on the latter.

[KE632117]

I'm 19 as well, I just speak English.

[KE632117]

And by the way, yes, I absolutely amuse myself. You don't like my silly quips? I guess I don't blame you, I am not that big on being called a douche bag.