Pat Burrell Is Not A Bad Player

After reading Jerry Crasnick's article, I felt the need to point that out.

In the NL, the average left fielder hit .277/.359/.478 in 2006.  In the AL it was .280/.347/.449.

Pat Burrell hit .258/.388/.502 this season and .281/.389/.504 in 2005.  The guy posts an .890 OPS.  That's very good.  It's comfortably above average for a left fielder.  His OPS was 21st in the NL this year.  That's better than Scott Rolen, Todd Helton, or Nomar Garciaparra.  Not far behind Alfonso Soriano or Carlos Delgado.

"But Tim!" you'll say.  "He can't hit in the clutch!"  Yes, I acknowledge that Burrell hit just .222/.376/.346 with runners in scoring position.  That's a 153 AB sample.  It means nothing.  Just one year earlier Burrell hit .313./.429/.598 with runners in scoring position. 

This is a solid 5-6 win player.  He may not age well and he's certainly not worth his salary, but he's still a good hitter.  Better than most free agents on the market.

Oh, and while I'm on my soapbox - Daisuke Matsuzaka doesn't throw the gyroball.  We have established this.  Prior to March 13, 2006, it was OK to speculate that perhaps Matsuzaka threw this pitch.  It seemed that way kind of.  But eight months ago, Jeff Passan blew the lid on the whole thing.  Sportswriters should know this by now!  I've read two articles in the past two days claiming he throws this pitch. 

Comments

[spieldogg]

you sabermetric guys are too much. Pat Burrell is horrible. He strikes out all the time, is slow as a turtle, and trips over his own feet in left field. They don't call this guy Pat the Bat for nothing. Just cause he had David Bell batting behind him this year and pitchers chose to face Bell over Burrell. Doesn't make Burrell out to be Ricky Henderson. Put the calculators down and watch a game.

[Thrillhouse26]

Pat Burrell is not horrible. Above average with the bat and a plus arm make up for his lack of speed and defense. I'd be the first one to agree that he's a late inning defensive replacement candidate. But then we'd have to stop blowing leads late and having Roberson bat behind Howard the rest of the game. Bullpen and pitching as a whole, I think is a little bigger problem then Pat's down year.

[OPERATIONSHUTDOWN]

He is not horrible, but he's a brutal fielder, Sean Casey fast, and has foot problems. Also, which Pat Burrell are you getting, the guy from 2003 and 2004 or 2005 and 2006. Then there's the salary and contract. Getting on base doesn't do much good if you don't score runs. .390 OBP, 30 bombs and only 80 runs. No thanks.

[usctrojans31]

I don't know what game you're watching, or how he is being called "overpaid." Remember he is a guy who took less early so that his team could go out and spend more. And don't forget, he is now "selfish" because he doesn't want to leave a city that he loves? Please, this is the Philly MO, they publically bash a player until he can't be there anymore, think Schilling, think Rolen.

Burrell played with pain and he played through slumps. He is a gritty player for all those who want to use that cliche word.

Burrell is a guy who takes a lot of walks, and when Abreu was traded, led the NL in pitches per plate appearance.

I've said on other forums that I believe Burrell should wear body armor, crowd the plate a bit more to prevent teams from throwing him the high pitch up and in. In his early career, he could be fooled by the outside slider and has worked to rectify that.
He should also be moved up to the two hole where he can get on more often and with fewer guys on base.

He is a player who knows his defensive limitations and doesn't attempt to do too much, which a lot of players do. He has good instincts on playing balls off of the wall and has a terrific throwing arm.

The coaches under the Bowa regime wanted Burrell to turn into a 45 homer guy and worked hard with him on pulling the ball, which is why he is too homer conscious. If he can get back to being Pat Burrell, the player who was rewarded with his heavy backloaded contract, then perhaps all of this criticism will stop.

He is horrible, because the media wants him to be horrible. The day he is traded, and the Phillies struggle, Ryan Howard and Chase Utley will be horrible. They will say Utley slumped at the end of 06 to cost the team a playoff birth. They'll say Ryan Howard's defense and high K totals cost the team. Welcome to Philadelphia, a place that makes NY look like Utopia.

[allabouthephils]

I don't know how many different ways I can possibly disagree with a person. You may have hit every single one of them usctrojans31. First, Pat Burrell is a MAJOR LEAGUE baseball player, he needs to put on his big boy pants and grow the hell up. Larry Bowa's regime is going into its third year in the clearing and it's time for people to stop using that as an excuse for Pat Burrell limited success. Pat Burrell has refused to get help at the plate from every single person in the Phillies organization to improve his plate coverage and mechanics ( including Mike Schmidt like 10 times). He isn't horrible because the media wants him to be horrible. He is horrible because he has 30 good swings a year and the other 470 look like he is trying to hit a golf ball. As for moving him to the two hole. That might be the funniest thing ive ever ever ever heard. First, you have to know what a two hole hitters' role in the lineup is supposed to be. A two hitter should be able to move a leadoff hitter into scoring position. A two hitter should have above average to good speed. A two hitter should have the best at bat to strikeout ratio in your entire lineup possibly excluding your leadoff hitter. A two hitter should be able to spray the ball to right field with ease. A two hitter should ground into the least double plays in your lineup. Placido Polanco is a two hitter, not Pat "the bat" Burrell. His arm is not great, it's above average. He is a liability on defense every time he steps on the field. He is a horrible base runner. He can't hit in the clutch. He cares more about the girls in the stands then his teammates that are struggling for a postseason berth. I think that compounds the issue and makes you a bad teammate to boot. Get this bum out of Philly. I would trade him for anything I can get. If I couldn't trade him, i'd release him. He is horrible and what makes it worse is that he doesn't care. He doesn't care about the team, the city, or the fans. He brought this embarrassment upon himself years ago when he thought he was king s!@# and had too much false pride rejecting Mike Schmidts offer to help him the first 5 times. Get rid of this loser.

[Not Joe Morgan]

Why do I have the feeling that if I asked for a list of LFs better than Pat Burrell, I'd get names like Frank Catalanatto and Craig Monroe?

[RotoAuthority]

I can answer that question in two words. Philadelphia media.

[Thrillhouse26]

Craig Monroe is clutch so he has to be better then Burrell right? : )

[Not Joe Morgan]

Its crazy around here (I'm in Delaware, 20 minutes out of Philadelphia), people honestly believe that corners of Dellucci and Victorino would be better than Burrell and Abreu.

[allabouthephils]

The Philadelphia media has nothing to do with the fact that we as Phillies fans have watched Burrell swinging and missing on those low and 6 inches off the plate sliders every night. The Philadelphia media has nothing to do with Phillies fans watching Pat Burrell limping around first base when he should have stretched it into a double. Or when Pat Burrell misplayed that ball in the outfield and a single is now a 3 base error. Pat Burrell SHOULD be one of the best left fielders in baseball, there's only one problem. He doesn't care enough. The media has nothing to do with that. The Philadelphia media never dogged Abreu this way. Sure, they picked at him. They prodded. But Abreu never gave them the ammunition that Burrell has provided for the reporters. From him opening his mouth about Cory Lidle to him dogging out Mike Schmidt. From him swinging and flying his hips open on every strikeout to him being benched the last quarter of last season. I am a die hard Philadelphia Phillies fan. I grew up in South Jersey. I now live in Washington State and watch every Phillies game on my dish. My opinion of Pat Burrell is unbiased and uninfluenced towards or by any media outlet. I came to this conclusion some time ago. I remember the likes of Lenny Dykstra and Garry Maddox. Guys who would hustle and give everything they had for the team. Burrell is selfish. I will show the list of left fielders in the major leagues. How many of these guys would you rather have right now ?

Alvarez, Tony Orioles
Anderson, Garret Angels
Ankiel, Rick St. Louis
Bay, Jason Pittsburgh
Berg, Dave Texas Rangers
Berger, Brandon St. Louis
Bigbie, Larry St. Louis
Bonds, Barry San Francisco
Brown, Dee Kansas City
Buchanan, Brian Cincinnati
Catalanotto, Frank Toronto
Collier, Lou Philadelphia
Crawford, Carl Tampa Bay
Cruz Jr., Jose LosAngeles
Cummings, Midre Baltimore
Cust, Jack San Diego
Davis, J.J. Colorado
Dellucci, David Philadelphia
Diaz, Matt Atlanta Braves
Diaz, Victor Texas Rangers
Dubois, Jason Cleveland
Dunn, Adam Cincinnati Reds
Ellison, Jason SanFrancisco
Floyd, Cliff New York Mets
Ford, Lew Minnesota Twins
Gettis, Byron Detroit
Gonzalez, Luis Arizona
Grabowski, Jason Los Angeles
Green, Andy Arizona
Grieve, Ben Chicago
Harris, Lenny Florida
Hermansen, Chad Toronto
Hocking, Denny Kansas City
Hollandsworth, Todd
Holliday, Matt Colorado
Ibanez, Raul Seattle
Johnson, Reed Toronto
Kelton, David Atlanta
Klesko, Ryan San Diego
Knott, Jon San Diego
Kubel, Jason Minnesota
Lankford, Ray St. Louis
Ledee, Ricky New York Mets
Lee, Carlos Texas Rangers
Linden, Todd SanFrancisco
Long, Terrence New York
Mateo, Ruben Washington
Matos, Luis Washington
Matsui, Hideki New York
McMillon, Billy Boston
Michaels, Jason Cleveland
Monroe, Craig Detroit
Mottola, Chad Toronto
Newhan, David Baltimore
Palmeiro, Orlando Houston Perez, Timo St. Louis
Podsednik, Scott Chicago
Pride, Curtis Los Angeles
Ramirez, Manny Boston
Rivera, Juan Los Angeles
Ryan, Michael Atlanta
Sledge, Terrmel San Diego
Soriano, Alfonso Wash
Spencer, Shane New York
Stewart, Shannon Minnesota
Surhoff, B.J. Baltimore
Swisher, Nick Oakland
Taguchi, So St. Louis
Thames, Marcus Detroit
Thomas, Charles Oakland
White, Rondell Minnesota
Wilkerson, Brad Texas
Willingham, Josh Florida
Wilson, Preston St. Louis
Wise, Dewayne Cincinnati
Young, Eric Texas Rangers

[RotoAuthority]

Your Phils dedication is exactly why you are very very biased in assessing Burrell. You have a selective memory. Hustle doesn't always translate to wins. Aaron Rowand can play his heart out but a loafing Manny is always better.

Of that list I'd only take a handful of LFs over Burrell.

[Thrillhouse26]

You have your opinion on Burrell and other people's differ. If I could Jedi mind trick any trade I wanted pure swap for Burrell on this list. I would do it for like 15-8 at most. And some would be of personal preference, different player style, cost, age, not all of them would be necessarily flat out better.

I'm more curious to think of who you would take over Burrell on this list. I could agree that the number could go up if you cost analyze it and take the lesser player for lesser price. But again you could say that to go up to a Lee or Manny, is it worth the added cost?

[nrmax88]

Roto i couldnt agree more that burrel is a pretty good player on the right team with the right protection, and most of all, THE RIGHT PRICE, not saying he wouldnt be a good 5 or 6 hitter on a lotta teams, but he is just simply making so much more money then he is worth, who knows, he may blow up this year, or it may be 2006 all over again. I say the phils get rid of him and fine some fresh blood

[Thrillhouse26]

Fresh blood aka worse player and that somehow makes the team better. Abreu didn't make the Phillies better in NYY.

[nrmax88]

im not sure what you were trying to say, cuz that last post really made no sense, but didnt you realize the phillies played by far their best ball of the year after abreu was dealt to the yanks

[nrmax88]

not to mention it would free up a ton of money to go find some1 who might actually help (not burrel)

[usctrojans31]

im not sure what you were trying to say, cuz that last post really made no sense, but didnt you realize the phillies played by far their best ball of the year after abreu was dealt to the yanks

Could it have been that their pitching finally caught up with their hitting? Jon Lieber finally pitched like a 7 million dollar player and Rnady Wolf got amazing run support.

[allabouthephils]

I coming to the conclusion that you and I disagree on just about every Phillies baseball issue Roto. I find it fanscinating. My Phillies dedication is not why I dislike Burrell. I find dedication and commitment to be key ingredients to success on winning major league baseball teams. Chemistry down the stretch wins world series. By the way, Manny Ramirez is a special hitter. One of the best power hitters ever. Pat Burrell is not in that class and never will be. Maybe he should be or should I say could be, that is what is so troubling for typical Phillies fan. Manny, for all his faults, is one of the hardest working athletes in professional sports. That is a fact. He spends days in the gym and in the batting cages perfecting his craft. He has made " playing the monster" his art in left field and few do it better. You mentioned Aaron Rowand, take a poll as to who you would rather have on your team. Aaron Rowand or Pat Burrell. I take Aaron Rowand every time and don't look back. He doesnt have the power or talent. But, he is a better baseball player. He plays better defense, hits for a higher average, steals more bases, is better in the locker room, and will run through a wall for ya. Oh yeah, he cost about 11 million less too.

[Yu Hsing Chen]

Burrell has his problems but if you truely think he's horrible then you need to have ur noggins checked.

It's the same sort of logic of guys calling to trade A-rod for nothing, except that in New York it's more of an impulsive thing and after a few days people remember what he did do.

When will this end in Philly, they keep trading away real talents based on fan biase and not much else. Curt Schilling? Scott Rolen ? Bobby Abreu ? is it a real wonder why the team hasn't made the playoff since 93 despite being the biggest single team city?

If your going to trade Burrell for somethign useful then I would obviously agree. but the voices here are screaming to dump him aka Bobby Abreu style, that's just insane.

If this continue the Phillies probably sign Juan Pierre (who doesn't strike out and runs fast, that's what you would love no?) and have a OF of Pierre / Rowand/ Victorino, yeah that's REALLY going to be great.

[allabouthephils]

I will answer that. Here are the guys I would take over Pat Burrell considering payroll as well.
Garrett Anderson
Lew Ford
Byron Gettis
JJ Davis
Carl Crawford
Shannon Stewart
David Dellucci
Jason DuDois
Adam Dunn
Larry Bigbie
Preston Wilson
Brad Wilkerson
Charles Thomas
So Taguchi
Nick Swisher
Alfonso Soriano
Manny Ramirez
Scott Podsednik
Hideki Matsui
Jason Michaels
Jason Kubel
Carlos Lee
Reed Johnson
Raul Ibanez
Matt Holliday
Todd Hollandsworth
Denny Hocking
Andy Green
I can't see this list as being too shocking to most. These are the guys that I would take in left over Pat Burrell based on production versus cost.

[Yu Hsing Chen]

Wow. just wow. I feel very sad, I lived in Philly from 93 to 97, and this is just sad.

[Thrillhouse26]

You have so many 4th OF listed its ridiculous. I can't even begin to argue. You have like 5 AAAA players on there as well. You just lost all credibility. Congrats.

The list is Dunn Crawford Matsui Swisher Ibanez Manny Soriano Holliday and Swisher. 6-8 other maybes but the rest you might as well start Roberson out there.

[usctrojans31]

Allaboutthephils, it's people like you who make me ashamed to put on a Phillies hat.

Let's break this down so that you can understand it.

Fact: Pat Burrell is one of the better players in baseball

Fact: Pat Burrell led the NL in pitches per plate appearance

Fact: Pat Burrell had an OPS higher than Mark Texeira, Johnny Damon, Todd Helton and Nomah.

Fact: Burrell took less money up front in a back-loaded contract.

Fact: Burrell, as with all players, had an aberation in situational stats.

Fact: Pat Burrell had the 6th highest isolated power at his position, higher than Carlos Less.

Fact: Burrell's salary is comparable to players of equal production

Fact: Gritty is the most overused term ever. Talent wins championships, not hustle and heart.

Fiction: Burrell cares only about himself

Fiction: Philadelphia benefited from moving Abreu only. They benefited from better pitching.

Fiction: BA is the most important stat for measuring a player

Fiction: 153 PA is a solid sample size.

Fiction: Pat Burrell is lazy. Google it, you'll find quite a few articles painting him as the hardest worker on the team.

Fiction: Aaron Rowand is a good player. His OPS is deplorable and his defense is horrendous. He has a minus arm and average range.

But convincing you is futile because you're stuck on the cliche that is "heart." You'll sit here and assume that bunting is how to win titles and that the two-hole is designed to move people.

The bottom-line is that hitting up top is about being on base, and Burrell has consistently done that. His walk rate makes him a constant threat to be one for players hitting behind him.

Cliche states that giving a bat to hit behind someone is protecting them. However, having someone on base nearly half the time serves as protection too.

Wake up, this is 2006, not 1905.

[JerseyMetFan]

USC for president!

Awesome post, and I agree 100%. I have been suggesting that the Mets go for Burrell for weeks now, and everyone seems to laugh at the idea. I let them think what they want.

Before the Mota incident, I would have dealt Heilman for Burrell and cash. Now though, I'm not so sure. How much more than Bannister would it take?

[usctrojans31]

I'm sure Gillick would do it for Mota straight up. Mota wants to win so badly he took steroids to win. THAT is gritty. He is a savy veteran who has pitched in both leagues.

Gillick is a moron

[Red Menace]

allaboutthephils, I'm shocked that you included Adam Dunn on your list of players you'd prefer. Your complaints about Burrell are exactly the same that some ill informed Reds fans have about Dunn--he has a low BA, he just tries to hit home runs, he's lazy, he doesn't work to improve himself, bad defense, slow. You would hate Adam Dunn.

[nrmax88]

usc why dont u take pat burrels penis, and stick it up your ass a little bit further lol, if you already havent.
Fact: your a dumbass
Fact: Pat burrel is not one of the better players in the league
Fact: im done arguing because u said too many stupid things i dont know where to begin. Until burrel is dealt the phillies r goin nowhere

Oh one more fact
I can hit 30 and knock in 100 in the little league field they call home, its a banbox

[nrmax88]

talent wins championships? tell that to the yankees, most talented team ever assembled. Talent is needed, but without heart, hustle, and role players, sorry charlie it aint happenin

[nrmax88]

thrillhouse lmao your funny. manny, soriano, swisher, ibanez, crawford, matsui, dunn, holliday, and then another swisher? OK thats 8 right there, plus 6-8 more? lmao thats half of the LFs in the league that u just said u would take over burrel. That means according to you he isnt even in the top half of baseball in his position. I think it is you my friend, that has just lost all credibility.

[PhillyRocks]

Here is Burrell's main problem. This is all truth.

He swings at balls outside and looks at pitches right down the middle. Nobody struck out looking as much as Burrell.

Late Inning Pressure situations :
Burrell - OBP - .338 / AVG - .177

Late Inning Pressure w/ runners on:
Burrell - OBP - .325 / AVG - .156

People look at OBP all the time for all people. Well that is not the stat you want for a batter who is going to hit 5th in your lineup. The guy had 95 RBI batting for the best lineup in the NL. He batted 4th and 5th and should have atleast 120 RBI.

If you want to compare someone to anyone, he should be compared to Kingman.

[PhillyRocks]

nrmax88, there is more to a baseball player then 29 HR. What good is that if he can't hit in pressure situations. That is where players make there money.

I'd take almost any other LF over Burrell. Holliday, Murton, Bay, Willingham, Soriano, Gonzo. That is just the NL. I would take Luke Scott, Either, Duncan. I could list more who would be a better fit.

[OPERATIONSHUTDOWN]

Seeing a lot of pitches is nice if you're a leadoff guy.

Walking a lot is nice if you can score runs (otherwise, you're just wearing the pitcher down and clogging the basepaths).

Burrell is a good power hitter, that's it. He doesn't do anything on the basepaths and he's bad in the field. He's 30, 6'4" 230 lbs, and has chronic foot problems.

OPS isn't everything. Of left fielders he was behind Scott, Bonds, Manny, Holliday, Duncan, Bay, Soriano, Dellucci, and Lee in that stat. The guys he was ahead of: Rivera, Thames, Johnson, Ibanez, Swisher, Dunn, Willingham, Ethier, Crawford, Markakis, even Monroe are all cheaper, younger, or better all around players. That's 20 guys most GMs would probably rather have on their team.

[Not Joe Morgan]

Intern: "Mr. Gillick, I've got it! Our solution to the Pat Burrell problem out in LF!"
(Gillick rolls his eyes. He has long since given up lecturing the intern on the value of Pat Burrell.)
Gillick: "Go ahead."
Intern: "Charles Thomas."
Gillick: “What?”
Intern: “Charles Thomas.”
Gillick: “The throw in from the Tim Hudson trade? Did he even play in a major league game this season?”
Intern: “No, he was in the PCL.”
Gillick: “How old is he now?”
Intern: “He’ll be 28 next season.”
Gillick: “Wow. So he’s not even a prospect anymore? Who did he have blocking him in Oakland? Bobby Kielty?”
Intern: “We’ll talk about Kielty later.”
Gillick: (noticeably sighs) “Ok, let’s hear Thomas’s numbers.”
Intern: (excited) “Ok. He had a .274/.350/.376 line with 9 HRs in 383 ABs.”
(long pause)
Gillick: “Seriously? You know that’s worse than what Burrell did for us and the PCL is a notorious hitter’s league. Why would we want this guy getting 500 ABs a year instead of Burrell?”
Intern: “Did I mention he stole 8 bases in 17 attempts?”
(Gillick stares through the intern)
Intern: “And … Burrell looks at girls and stuff … and he looks stupid on some pitches … and (voice drifting) he was a jerk to Schmidt.”
Gillick: “Allaboutthephils, you’re fired.”

[allabouthephils]

Funny stuff Not Joe Morgan. I knew I would get killed for that list. But, I stand by it. USC Trojan Fan and Jersey Met fan, firstly, if you think a gritty player is someone who sticks a needle in his butt because he doesn't have talent and wants to improve his preformance for a nice contract in his contract year. Your a moron. Second, you want to trade Bannister for Burrell. Let me say that again, you want to trade Brian Bannister for Pat Burrell. Wait, I still don't think I said it right. Wait no YOU said what more would it take. I WANT YOU AS THE NEW METS GM TOMORROW. Maybe we could trade David Wright for a used tampon. That's on the same scale. Look, Pat Burrell is worth 25 to 30 swings a year. If he were such a good player, why are no gms out there greeting his 14MM a year. That sounds like a steal for a guy who hits for power has great defensive skills and has a cannon. Come on people. Don't comment unless you've actually watched the guy play.

[Not Joe Morgan]

I'm in Delaware so technically the Phillies are my TV team so I see them quite a bit (also have Extra Innings). I've watched Burrell play and, yes, he has his deficiencies. He’s very slow, not an instinctive baserunner and (the worst for his public perception) a tendency to look very bad on some breaking pitches. We both know the swing; his hips fly open, his back knee drops and his top hand flies off as he misses the slider by 2 feet. Booing ensues. This is part of the reason Burrell isn’t a superstar, but he’s still an above average corner. His problem is that when he strikes out, he tends to look ugly. You as someone who watches every game knows that well, probably too well, and it clouds your judgment on him. The numbers are the numbers. His slash numbers were, across the board, better than Nick Swisher. Philly would love Nick Swisher (to be honest, I love Swisher). There would be no complaining about Swisher if he put up his 2006 in Philly instead of Oakland, but it would have been a step down. That’s the thing about perception, you see a guy and if it looks bad or its not to the level you expect, you get down on him. It doesn’t change that fact that the raw numbers say Burrell outperformed Swisher in 2006. That’s an indisputable fact. Burrell’s AVG/OBP/SLG were all better than Swisher’s. Granted he doesn’t project better down the road, but for 2006, he was a bigger offensive contributor and Philly was better served with Burrell. Now you can say he's overpaid, which at this point I agree with you, but to say you'd take Denny Hocking (who is doing radio now) over this guy is stupid and kills what could be, if toned down, a valid argument.

Here’s something else to think about:
Burrell in 2002: .282/.376/.544, 37 HRs, age 25
Utley in 2006: .309/.379/.527, 32 HRs, age 27
Burrell got his big deal after the 2002 season. Aside from the positional differences, these seasons look almost identical; Burrell has the slight power advantage, Utley the BA advantage, Burrell was 2 years younger. Everyone here is clamoring to lock Utley up without realizing the parallels. Granted, I thought Wade was awful, but this contract was never as bad as people make it out to be.

[PhillyRocks]

not joe morgan,
The problem with what you said about strike outs and how bad he looks when he does. The problem is he
131-06 (100 less AB)
160-05
130-04 (100 less AB)
142-03
153-02
162-01
139-00 (over 100 less AB)

That is alot of bad looking strikeouts don't you think.

He swings at outside pitches and watches them right down the middle of the plate.

[Thrillhouse26]

Since when does 6-8 other maybes mean I'll take 6-8 guys because they're better then Burrell? We we're talking Cost/effect as well, so a lot of the guys aren't better. They just cost less.

And if his OPS beats the league average for his position then he is an above average player with the bat.

[Thrillhouse26]

Lets get back to reality. Flat out who would you take off that stated list that is available? Crawfords and Manny's aside, name me 10 guys on that list that could be signed this offseason, or traded for in a non blockbuster.

Cliff Floyd Moises Alou Bonds Jay Payton Trot Nixon Jose Guillen and Jeromy Burnitz.

They also are listed on the FA OF list so I will throw them out there and they all crush Denny Hocking.

[ranchaus18]

Look, there is a reason the Phils were running Dellucci and Conine out there all September, and why Pat was on the bench. As vilified as Charlie Manuel is in this town, just about everyone agreed with him on this, and that is saying something. I watched enough games where the probable outcomes became (in this order):
a)strikeout
b)popout
c)walk
d)flyout
e)hit

I know he's not the worst player in the world (hell, I defended him in '03-'04 when he was brutal) but the time has come. He needs to be moved. For everyone's sake, including his own. They were ready to deal him last offseason, at the deadline (when he vetoed the deal to Baltimore), and now again. Just get it over with and move on.

And to USC, to say the fans ran Schilling and Rolen out of town is totally uninformed. Ed Wade ran Schill out of town because the fans reacted positively to Schilling whenever he went on the radio and ripped the team, and why everyone ripped Wade again in 2004 when Arizona made him available and the Phils didn't go after him. And Rolen wanted absoultely no part of living anywhere on the East Coast. He wouldn't have played in NY, Boston, Philly, Balt, Atl, or Fla once he got the chance. Rolen was the first big money deal Wade offered in 2002, but he turned it down, and that's why he signed Abreu and Burrell to the big money contracts to try and save some face.

[nrmax88]

phillyrocks dont tell me ive been agreeing the whole time that burrel is a waste of money and that hes not very good, atleast a good fit in phillies lineup